Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Inside The OIG Interview: The Testimony Of An Unnamed MCC Lieutenant (Part 10) (5/7/26)

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Inside The OIG Interview: The Testimony Of An Unnamed MCC Lieutenant (Part 10) (5/7/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick back
• 0:06
  up where we left off with the unnamed lieutenant and
• 0:09
  his interview with the OIG investigators. Question all right, to
• 0:13
  your knowledge if they're doing the count though, that's all
• 0:16
  on the shoe, the people that are in there right now,
• 0:19
  nothing to do with lieutenants. Answer no question, Okay, there
• 0:23
  is no way for like, anyone else other than the
• 0:25
  people in the shoe. Or let me ask it a
• 0:28
  different way, is there any way for anyone other than
• 0:31
  the shoe to know that they're not doing the counts?
• 0:34
  Answer no question, No, okay, anything that you didn't initial,
• 0:38
  just again to say that we showed it to you. Answer,
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  so what does this pertain to thomasin Owell? Question? Well,
• 0:46
  it's everybody, you know, because everybody that's in the shoe,
• 0:50
  right We've got to talk to them, Hey, did you
• 0:52
  conduct these counts or these you know, because this just
• 0:56
  brought to light the fact that it doesn't appear that
• 0:58
  the counts were ever being conducted, So we've got to
• 1:02
  that's why we've got to talk to the people that
• 1:04
  we want to talk to first, people like yourself that
• 1:07
  were lieutenants on duty. Hey, do you know anything about this?
• 1:11
  Did you do? You know? Answer? I mean they wasn't
• 1:16
  counting questioned, Yeah, I know, but I mean just letting
• 1:19
  you know, like, oh, yeah, first we want to talk
• 1:22
  to you know about the cell mate. Hey, did you
• 1:24
  know anything about this? Did you? It looks like from
• 1:27
  the way that this memo reads, we assume that either
• 1:30
  you or redacted toll redacted, Hey, he's WAB. Make sure
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  he gets a cell mate, because that's one of the
• 1:36
  reasons why we want to talk. He gets cut off
• 1:40
  by the lieutenant based on that memo question, Yeah, because
• 1:44
  like the fact he's saying, I knew, I knew he
• 1:46
  was going WAB and I told him, Hey, make sure
• 1:50
  he gets to have a cell mate. So the assumption
• 1:52
  that we were going off of is that either you
• 1:55
  and or redacted spoke to redacted and said he's going
• 1:59
  wa make sure he gets a cell mate. But it
• 2:02
  sounds like what you're saying is you don't You didn't
• 2:05
  even know, and you never had that conversation answer with
• 2:08
  redacted and everything, No, I don't even know. I never
• 2:12
  knew the dude until that thing came out. You know
• 2:14
  what I mean, he would be would have been notified.
• 2:17
  Question right answer, But again I mean we do get notified,
• 2:21
  but usually R and D calls us up. Hey, those
• 2:24
  two guys ain't coming back. Question And is it your
• 2:28
  belief all right? If you said you didn't speak with him,
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  so probably he was notified directly from Control or R
• 2:36
  and D. Answer, I would say probably R and D. Question,
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  So R and D wouldn't call control, and Control wouldn't
• 2:42
  call him. R and D would call directly to the shoe. Answer.
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  That's how we used to do it. Question, Okay, And
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  that's how it would always be. So when you were
• 2:51
  in the shoe, R and D would call you directly. Answer.
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  But again that's evening watch. Again, that's on evening watch.
• 2:59
  That's not coming back. Question. But at one fifty, that's
• 3:03
  early and that's when it's notified. All right. So if
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  he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the
• 3:09
  court list that morning, and that's what people have told us,
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  So we're going on the assumption that and this is
• 3:15
  an assumption that he was somebody was contacted in the
• 3:19
  shoe saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back.
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  He did right, possibly but that's the first that we're
• 3:24
  seeing WAB. So the thought is that someone contacted or tacted.
• 3:31
  We haven't. We've got to talk to him. But like
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  I said, hey, it doesn't look like he's coming back.
• 3:36
  You know, we're just notifying you now. And again, we
• 3:39
  were told typically the way it works, and it sounds
• 3:42
  like you're correcting us. R and D typically calls control,
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  control calls ops, OPS calls the shoe. Is that correct? Answer?
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  What when an inmate doesn't come back? Question? Yeah, answer no, question, No,
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  it doesn't work that way. So R and D you're saying,
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  typically just would go straight to shoe. Answer, that's a
• 4:03
  heads up, that's a courtesy question, right answer, Hey, this
• 4:08
  guy's not coming back? Control nos, Control Nos. They call
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  control too, but usually they call in you know, why
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  would you call me? You know you and the shoe question.
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  That's just what we were told. Answer, Hey, this guy's
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  not coming back. Question. And then again, we're only as
• 4:26
  good as the people who we talk to. Whatever information
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  we get is like people like yourself trying to like, hey,
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  I know it's probably like yourself. It sounds like, at
• 4:35
  least in the beginning of this thing, you seem pretty
• 4:37
  nervous to talk to us because we're really just trying
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  to He gets caught off by the lieutenant. No. No,
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  the thing about it, The thing is, I know this,
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  this is a high profile case. People look into, point fingers,
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  blame someone who dropped the ball, who did this? And
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  that question I totally get it. Answer. I mean, two
• 4:56
  years later now it's still like, okay, let's go down
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  and see question and the reason why. I'm sure you
• 5:02
  saw on the papers what happened recently? Answer? Yeah, question,
• 5:06
  Well that now allows us to try and come back
• 5:09
  and try to figure out all right, now we can
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  do He gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, but
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  you're going to go after a whole shift, you know.
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  Question It's not necessarily go after the whole shift. But
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  we've got to figure out what went wrong at the
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  MCC and what needs to be fixed. Do you know
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  what I'm saying. But I get it, trust me. He
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  gets cut off by the lieutenant just to deal they
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  have suicides, man, like they do. Question Yeah, Yeah, totally answer.
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  He just happened to be a high profile one question, right,
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  and because it's so high profile and the fact that
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  we were he gets cut off by the lieutenant. The
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  other things with yeah, yeah, I know. Question, all those
• 5:50
  other things are going on. Now it looks like there
• 5:52
  was some false you know, slips that were created. Answer yeah,
• 5:57
  question they weren't doing counts, you know, are getting these
• 6:00
  signs saying that, hey, you're supposed to check on them.
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  Every gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, that's not normal,
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  definitely question Yeah. So yeah, and you're right, it's because
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  it's a high profile gets cut off by the lieutenant.
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  I was there for ten years. I used to do
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  that stuff and all that. That's not normal. Question. What's
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  not normal? Answer? Miscounts and all that. Yeah. Question, and
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  so you're saying that this seems to be abnormal. Answer,
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  it's definitely abnormal. Question. When you were in the shoe
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  did you ever were you ever did you ever experience
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  people not doing counts? Answer? No question. People always did
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  counts when you were there. Answer yeah, but here question
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  and that's you know, that's what people that's what the
• 6:46
  conspiracy theorist come in and all that kind of stuff
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  like wow, this one day, and that's where we've got
• 6:53
  to all right, well, let's figure out what actually happened.
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  Is this abnormal or is it normal. You're saying that
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  this seems to be very abnormal day. Answer. I'm talking
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  about that's why the counts and the slips and the
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  rounds and the falsifying stuff like that, but everything else.
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  I mean, this place is a busy place. Question. Yeah. Answer,
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  You know, they lose inmates, go out wab all the
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  time new inmates come in, So this is a revolving door. Question.
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  All right, I know we're talking a lot longer than
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  we thought. Let me just go through a lot of
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  these things now, Just back to the round sheet. Where
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  what is the purpose of a supervisor actually signing this
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  round sheet? Answer? Making sure that the officer is following
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  and doing their rounds how they're supposed to be question,
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  And we don't really need to look at it, all right,
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  So it's not to verify that they were done. It's
• 7:44
  to verify that the sheets are being kept up. Question.
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  So if I go up there and I see the
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  times you all made a round after forty minutes, what
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  happened there? Question? So you ask them about that? Answer? Right, question,
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  But on this date you can't. You don't remember going
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  and speaking to them. Answer, I said, I could have went.
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  I don't recall question Okay, and again just going forward,
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  know that these are just simply questions to see what
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  we can find out about that day and as well
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  as you know, the point being you saying that this
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  is such an abnormal day and it was such a
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  big event that's been in the news now for two years.
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  Just try and really place yourself. What was your role
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  on that day? Answer? Yeah, Like I said, I just
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  know I worked and that was it. Question all right,
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  And as far as you know, where rounds being conducted
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  in the Shoe at that time? Answer yeah, it's day watch.
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  You've got to make your rounds. Question on day watch,
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  You've got to answer. There's no way you can avoid
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  around on day watch. Question what about for And I'm
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  not talking about just your shift, I'm saying the Shoe
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  in general. Are you aware that rounds weren't being conducted
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  on the evening watch or a morning watch? Answer weren't.
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  Question Yeah, we're not answer evening watch. You've got to
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  make rounds too. I worked at the Shoe for years.
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  You have to You've got to go question so when
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  when you were there they were being conducted? Answer? Yeah,
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  That's what I'm saying. The whole mess of the count thing.
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  I'm like, I don't know. Question any of those people
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  that we discussed that were on the day watch and
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  you know, anybody working in the Shoe on August ninth
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  and tenth, do you have any recollection of speaking with
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  any of those people about morning watch or I mean,
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  not morning watch, about speaking with about rounds or counts.
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  Answer no, question no. And now, being that you were
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  an OPS the oppsolueutenant, it sounds like your quarterly post.
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  Would that be something that you would visit with them
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  and just say, hey, guys, make sure what you're doing
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  and that you're doing your rounds or anything like that.
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  Would that be a duty or responsibility of an obsoleutenant? Answer? Yeah,
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  but not, it's not really my responsibility. It's the Shoe lieutenant.
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  Question yeah, yeah. Did you have any conversations with the
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  Shoe lieutenant at that time? Answer? Yeah, I talked to
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  the Shoe lieutenant redacted? Yeah. Question yeah yeah, answer, oh no,
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  you said it was redacted? Right question right answer? Yeah.
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  Question do you remember talking to him at all about
• 10:20
  Epstein or redacted? Answer? I ain't seen him since that
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  day question prior. What I'm asking about is up until
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  Longust tenth, answer no. Question do you remember ever conversing
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  with redacted about making sure you're going to do these
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  rounds and that Epstein's being you know, looked at, or
• 10:39
  he's got a cell mate or anything like that. Answer Man,
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  I don't recall that question No answer yeah, but we
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  all know it's you. You got the email. Question right,
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  the email saying he needs a cell mate? Answer yeah,
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  and all the lieutenants know. They say, oh, such and
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  such got we got the email. He was off watch
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  you know. Question do you think it's acceptable for any
• 11:03
  lieutenant to say that they didn't know that Epstein needed
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  a cell mate? Answer some people say they didn't know
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  the cellmate left. Question No. If they're saying that, let's
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  just talk about the people on that day. Let's talk about, like,
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  for instance, somebody that maybe wasn't normally a lieutenant. Can
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  you redacted? Question all right, so she's in you said, basically,
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  she's in training. She is like an acting lieutenant. She's
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  the person he gets cut off by the lieutenant. I
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  don't think she was acting that day either though. Question Well,
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  I just mean that she was activity as lieutenant. Answer yeah, yeah,
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  question sorry, she was the activity as lieutenant and she
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  was either training or she's typically an SOS at the time. Though,
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  should she have known by Epstein being on the hot list?
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  In Epstein, you know, coming off suicide Watch, should she
• 11:55
  have just known that he was required to have a cellmate? Answer?
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  No question? No, what about redacted? Should he have known? Answer?
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  I mean, that's only if you're aware, though, if I'm
• 12:08
  not aware the guy left question. I thought you said
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  if you're First of all, I thought you said that
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  everybody knows that in the shoe you're supposed to have
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  a cell mate unless you're a certain classification. Answer yeah,
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  but sometimes it be an odd number and they can't
• 12:22
  have one. Question. But then the second thing would be
• 12:27
  that he's on the hot list. Everybody knows that if
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  you're on the hot list, you're supposed to have a
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  cell mate right answer, yeah question. And then the third
• 12:35
  thing would be that there's an actual email that was
• 12:37
  sent out and that said he's supposed to have a
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  cell mate. Answer right question. So that's where with all
• 12:44
  that in mind, and I'm not pointing to one person
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  out in particular, What I'm just asking is these people
• 12:51
  that were working, so you're not like throwing somebody under
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  the bus. I'm just asking like, as far as these
• 12:57
  people go, should redact it have known that there should
• 13:00
  have been redacted? And I'm not saying that he knew.
• 13:03
  These people may very well not have known what was
• 13:05
  going on. I'm just asking like, in general with their positions.
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  Answer in general, well, I probably redacted never got the
• 13:14
  email question like you're saying you knew, So, yes, he knew,
• 13:18
  should have redacted have known answer? I think all lieutenants
• 13:21
  should have known. Question what about he gets cut off
• 13:25
  by the lieutenant? But then again we all have If
• 13:28
  you're not aware to the inmate leaving, there's no reason
• 13:30
  to follow up question. And that's why I started after you.
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  So at this point you said, at least by eight
• 13:37
  people should have known that he's not coming back. So
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  that's where I'm going off of. All right, there's three
• 13:43
  lieutenants from that point after you leave, there's three lieutenants. Right,
• 13:48
  there's redacted, redacted, and redacted, and then the next morning
• 13:51
  redacted lane should redacted who replaced you? Should she have
• 13:55
  known that he needed a sellmate? Answer? I could see
• 13:58
  her not knowing. Question is that because she wasn't a lieutenant? Answer?
• 14:02
  Not a lieutenant question Okay, what about redacted answer, he's
• 14:07
  not a lieutenant question should he have known? Answer? Yeah
• 14:12
  or new? Like I said, we all knew because we
• 14:15
  got the email. Question and then what about redacted lane?
• 14:20
  Not only the email though it sounds like there was
• 14:23
  at least three checks. One he's in the shoe, should
• 14:26
  have a cell mate. Two he came off of suicide Watch,
• 14:30
  should have a cell mate. Three an email was sent
• 14:32
  out to all the lieutenants. Should have a cell mate?
• 14:37
  Answer yeah, but two and three happens all the time though,
• 14:40
  Like the guy comes off suicide Watch, you put him
• 14:42
  in shoe with the cell mate. And then again that's
• 14:45
  not forever question, but in this case, you know July
• 14:49
  thirtieth to August ninth or tenth. Answer. But is it said?
• 14:53
  I don't think that's up to psychology, because we have
• 14:56
  other guys on suicide Watch, same thing. Once they leave,
• 14:59
  they didn't commit suicide, and it's nothing question. So if
• 15:03
  you get this email then on July thirtieth saying make
• 15:06
  sure that he's got a cell mate, answer, there's no
• 15:09
  time on it. Question in your mind? Is that well
• 15:12
  two weeks from now, he doesn't need one anymore? Answer?
• 15:15
  There's no set time. It's just immediately this guy's coming
• 15:18
  off a guy maybe got kicked out of the unit.
• 15:21
  Question Okay, so in this case, all right, how should
• 15:24
  it have been? What kind of notification should have been made? Then? Answer?
• 15:28
  This is a tough one. But if he's a guy
• 15:30
  and he goes to court, then he leaves, you know,
• 15:33
  and you're doing your daily operation. There's so much going on, Epstein,
• 15:37
  Ain't you know, I know he's a high profile to
• 15:39
  the outside. Question but I mean he's still on the
• 15:43
  hot list. Answer yeah, question so he's on the hot
• 15:47
  list still. So doesn't that indicate that he needs a
• 15:50
  cell mate if he's still on the hot list? Answer? Yeah,
• 15:53
  but he had one question, right, And that's what I'm
• 15:55
  saying by we're knocking you, and we're knocking redacted out
• 15:59
  of this thing because you're saying eight o'clock. So now
• 16:02
  let's look at eight o'clock on let's say even for
• 16:04
  this instance, let's say even redacted and redacted, they didn't know.
• 16:09
  Now look at redacted lane, certainly by midnight you should
• 16:13
  have known, right answer Yeah, but not a lieutenant though.
• 16:17
  Question no answer, like if the information is told to me,
• 16:21
  he gets cut off by the investigator. But if they're
• 16:25
  coming in and saying you said that they needed to
• 16:28
  do around right for the case, or needed to do
• 16:31
  around in the shoe, correct, check on all the inmates? Answer?
• 16:35
  Check inmates feeding or officers making sure they're doing the rounds,
• 16:39
  or go to the shoe question redacted lane. Was she
• 16:45
  required to check on all the inmates and do around?
• 16:47
  Answer when she was probably doing around? Yeah? Question? All right,
• 16:53
  so as far as her by that point, now we've
• 16:56
  only got you know where. Now you know, let's say
• 16:59
  that she's the one that corrected, you know, the count
• 17:01
  slip she caught, that she goes, she visited, she's supposed
• 17:06
  to go to the shoe. She's supposed to actually visit
• 17:08
  all the tears and do around. Answer. I mean our
• 17:11
  policy is really to say you've got to do around
• 17:13
  in the shoe. You know, so in the shoe, you
• 17:15
  in the shoe. I don't know what she did. Question,
• 17:18
  And that's where I was getting to before. I'm doing
• 17:21
  around in the shoe for a lieutenant. Does that mean
• 17:23
  just walking into the shoe and walking out or does
• 17:26
  that intel actually doing something when you're in there? Answer?
• 17:32
  I don't think there's no guidance on that question. So
• 17:36
  we've talked to other people and they've told us, when
• 17:39
  you a lieutenant is actually required to walk in the
• 17:41
  tears and conduct around, not to list it on the
• 17:44
  round sheet. But like the people who list those rounds
• 17:48
  on the round sheet, is that your understanding of what
• 17:51
  you're supposed to do? Answer? I mean, yeah, question, so
• 17:55
  is that what she should have done? She should have
• 17:57
  walked the line the tears and checked on the inmate.
• 18:00
  Answer yeah, question by policy, I'm saying, answer by policy,
• 18:05
  you've got to make around question, and that round is
• 18:08
  classified as like around, like the CEOs who are in
• 18:11
  the shoe to do around. Answer, I've got a double
• 18:15
  check on that question. Okay, answer to tell you the
• 18:18
  truth question, and that's what's unsure. Answer, yeah, question, you're unclear, okay.
• 18:24
  And that's where I'm trying to go because we've also
• 18:27
  had less people, but some people have also said no,
• 18:30
  around for a lieutenant and around for a CEO is different.
• 18:33
  Around for a lieutenant is visiting the shoe and checking
• 18:36
  in with the officers. We've had more people say no,
• 18:40
  you need to go into the shoe, you need to
• 18:41
  check with the officers. But you also need to walk
• 18:44
  the tier and I'm trying to get to like he
• 18:47
  gets cut off by the lieutenant. It depends on the
• 18:49
  lieutenant question and their interpretation. Answer Yeah, like I said,
• 18:55
  that's why I really don't I'll have to check on
• 18:57
  that part. Question Okay, and what policy would that be in?
• 19:01
  Where would it spell that out? Answer? That would be
• 19:03
  an inmate discipline, which is shoe which also would probably
• 19:07
  be in psychology questions, So it would probably be psychology
• 19:11
  for the lieutenant that they need to do it. Answer.
• 19:14
  I know it's about thirty and everything question, but it
• 19:16
  would also be like gets cut off, but for lieutenants
• 19:20
  answer a question, it would also be like shoe type answer. Yeah,
• 19:24
  but I'm thinking it's more policies. Question. Well, I got
• 19:29
  the shoe policy, I don't have the psychology answer. It
• 19:33
  isn't in there. Question I don't know. I was going
• 19:36
  to look answer, Yeah, let me see it might be
• 19:39
  psychology is definitely the thirty minute rounds question. Again, these
• 19:45
  aren't gotcha, These are genuine questions, But psychology you think
• 19:48
  might have had like lieutenants, he gets cut off by
• 19:52
  the lieutenant, Well, they definitely with the thirty minutes he
• 19:55
  gets cut off now by the investigator. Yeah, I mean,
• 19:58
  the shoe policy clearly states that need to be conducted.
• 20:01
  I just haven't seen anything that said lieutenants need to
• 20:04
  do it. And that's where I mean. You can look
• 20:06
  through them if you want answer. Nah, I think it's
• 20:09
  in there, and it may not be in there, but
• 20:11
  it's definitely in there. All right, we're gonna wrap up
• 20:15
  right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
• 20:17
  we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
• 20:19
  information that goes with this episode can be found in
• 20:22
  the description box.