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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Mansion Murder Mystery - The Homicide of Dr. Devon Hoover · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of my favorite things
0:21
Speaker 1: to do, particularly when I'm back home down in New
0:24
Speaker 1: Orleans and my family down the are is if I
0:26
Speaker 1: ever have an opportunity, I love to go visit old homes,
0:30
Speaker 1: particularly those that are opened during the holiday season. You
0:34
Speaker 1: really get to appreciate the beauty of them, because the
0:36
Speaker 1: homes down there are so very old, and you can
0:39
Speaker 1: tell that people love them at one point in time,
0:43
Speaker 1: or loved the idea of them. They dumped a lot
0:46
Speaker 1: of money into them, maybe one hundred, one hundred and fifty,
0:50
Speaker 1: maybe one hundred and seventy five years ago. It comes
0:52
Speaker 1: through It kind of echoes down through time and you
0:55
Speaker 1: can see where people lived a life. I think that
1:00
Speaker 1: that's quite remarkable. It really is. It's not like something
1:04
Speaker 1: that was thrown up recently, you know, and has no
1:08
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess the word is patina on it.
1:10
Speaker 1: You know. It's a dwelling that people existed in. But today,
1:16
Speaker 1: I gotta say, there is a homicide that has occurred
1:21
Speaker 1: inarguably one of the wealthiest areas in the metro Detroit
1:28
Speaker 1: City area up there, and it involves an old house,
1:31
Speaker 1: a house that was renown, a house that was loved
1:37
Speaker 1: and a house that was known for hospitality, and you know,
1:41
Speaker 1: I think truly that's one of the great things that
1:45
Speaker 1: truly makes a home an inviting place. We're going to
1:48
Speaker 1: talk today about the homicide of doctor DeVaughn Hoover. I'm
1:54
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave. I
2:02
Speaker 1: started reading this story about doctor Hoover up in Detroit,
2:07
Speaker 1: and we hear a lot about Detroit and how dangerous
2:13
Speaker 1: it is and for a long long time, and I
2:15
Speaker 1: feel I feel sorry because Detroit is one of the
2:17
Speaker 1: grand cities of America. It was for a long time,
2:20
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of wealth up there for
2:22
Speaker 1: a long time, and you can still see remnants of
2:24
Speaker 1: that if you ever visit visit Detroit. You go out
2:28
Speaker 1: by the lake and you see some of these mansions
2:30
Speaker 1: that people in dwelled all those years ago, that had
2:33
Speaker 1: just wealth that many of us cannot even begin to imagine.
2:37
Speaker 1: And I think that that's what we're dealing with here,
2:39
Speaker 1: we're talking about I don't know if the term palatial
2:42
Speaker 1: is appropriate here, but it's certainly striking. This home is
2:47
Speaker 1: it's up there. As my granny used to say, I
2:49
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to have to push a vacuum cleaner through it.
2:52
Speaker 2: Oil Boy, nine bedrooms, twelve thousand square feet. Beautiful home,
2:57
Speaker 2: but it is not a new man that was thrown
3:00
Speaker 2: up in the last six months. Doctor Devon Hoover is
3:04
Speaker 2: one of these men that people have nothing bad to say.
3:08
Speaker 1: Nothing.
3:09
Speaker 2: You can find something negative about anybody, but when it
3:11
Speaker 2: comes to doctor Devon Hoover, he was loved by his patients,
3:15
Speaker 2: He was loved by his neighbors. One of his neighbors
3:18
Speaker 2: said that when he first bought the house, that it
3:21
Speaker 2: was doctor Hoover who came over and introduced himself and said, now,
3:25
Speaker 2: if you haven't owned an older, big home before, there
3:27
Speaker 2: are some things you need to know. And he said
3:30
Speaker 2: that they became friends because he hadn't owned a home
3:33
Speaker 2: like that, and they do require a lot more attention
3:37
Speaker 2: than you're used to doing around a home. The payoff,
3:40
Speaker 2: of course, as you mentioned palatial, that was actually how
3:43
Speaker 2: the home was referred to, and doctor Hoover opened it
3:46
Speaker 2: up to the community to raise money for all types
3:50
Speaker 2: of charities and things that needed attention. He opened his
3:53
Speaker 2: doors and said do it here, it's my place, and
3:57
Speaker 2: doctor Hoover, he's a neurosurgeon, which Joe, just give me
3:59
Speaker 2: the run the net explanation of what is a neurosurgent.
4:02
Speaker 1: The way I look at specialties in medicine, and one
4:06
Speaker 1: of the ways that many people that either work in
4:09
Speaker 1: medicine or work around the periphery of medicine. When you
4:12
Speaker 1: hear what the occupation is of any particular physician, you
4:17
Speaker 1: want to know what they're specially is, so you know,
4:19
Speaker 1: you can have like internal medicine people, you can have
4:22
Speaker 1: mergency room doctors, you can have psychiatrists, you can have
4:25
Speaker 1: orthopedic specialists. But when it comes to neurosurgery, if you're
4:30
Speaker 1: measuring it by the length of time that it takes
4:34
Speaker 1: to make it through your postdoctoral training, your residency in medicine,
4:42
Speaker 1: it's probably, to say the very least the most robust.
4:45
Speaker 1: So just imagine it this way. You've probably done four
4:49
Speaker 1: years as an undergraduate, and you've got a bachelor's degree
4:51
Speaker 1: and more than likely pre med or biology or chemistry
4:55
Speaker 1: or biochem or some science. Then you go to medical school.
4:58
Speaker 1: Well that's going to take you four years right well,
5:01
Speaker 1: dependent upon the program at minimum. When you're talking about neurosurgery.
5:05
Speaker 1: That this is after you've completed your four years in
5:08
Speaker 1: medical school. You're staring down the barrel of at least
5:13
Speaker 1: at minimum six years. Just wrap your brain around that
5:18
Speaker 1: for a second. You're talking about six plus years. And
5:21
Speaker 1: some do subspecialties once they are complete with an actual
5:26
Speaker 1: neurosurgery residency. And there are some people that will do
5:29
Speaker 1: let me see how kind of break it down, they'll
5:31
Speaker 1: do like a general surgery residency, which is a few
5:35
Speaker 1: years in and of itself, is rather robust itself, and
5:38
Speaker 1: then they'll go into neurosurgery. There are some people that
5:41
Speaker 1: will do neurosurgery, and there are certain people that are
5:45
Speaker 1: also neurologists, which is different as well. They treat people
5:51
Speaker 1: externally for head trauma and spinal trauma and those sorts
5:54
Speaker 1: of things, kind of measuring if you've ever had concussion
5:56
Speaker 1: or something like that, and the doctor comes in and
5:58
Speaker 1: they're checking your neuros and they'll sit here, squeeze my fingers.
6:02
Speaker 1: How many fingers are my holding up? And they'll do
6:03
Speaker 1: all these measurements, and they'll do imaging and all that
6:06
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Well, doctor Hoover, he would have had
6:09
Speaker 1: to do all of that plus he's actually the guy
6:12
Speaker 1: that goes in and operates on the brain. And in
6:15
Speaker 1: his particular case, he specialized in the neck and in
6:19
Speaker 1: the spine, and so that's his area. So if you
6:24
Speaker 1: had any kind of spinal trauma or neck trauma, which
6:30
Speaker 1: spine neck essentially the same thing where you have the
6:32
Speaker 1: brain stem that comes out of the backside of the brain,
6:35
Speaker 1: all right, and then it turns literally turns into the
6:39
Speaker 1: spinal cord that stands down through the cervical vertebra and
6:43
Speaker 1: then through the thoracic vertebra the lumbar and so it
6:46
Speaker 1: controls It's kind of like the neuro pathway. It's the
6:50
Speaker 1: big highway that controls all of the little nerve endings
6:53
Speaker 1: that extend out through the body. So at any of
6:55
Speaker 1: those levels you see people that are say paraplegics, are udroplegics,
7:01
Speaker 1: and dependent upon where those injuries have taken place on
7:03
Speaker 1: the spine dictates how their body is going to be compromised.
7:08
Speaker 1: So he would go in and these people are fascinating
7:11
Speaker 1: to me, and they're having to do like microsurgery on
7:14
Speaker 1: these very very delicate tissues. That's how skilled this guy was.
7:18
Speaker 2: All I can think of is when Judge Smells looks
7:20
Speaker 2: at Danny and Caddyshack and says, well, the world needs
7:23
Speaker 2: ditch diggers too, Boy, that's where I am. If I
7:25
Speaker 2: was faced with those choices, Joe, I would be on
7:28
Speaker 2: the ditch diggers side. But I don't even understand two
7:30
Speaker 2: thirds of what you just said.
7:32
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with ditchdiggers man. And as Judge Smail says,
7:36
Speaker 1: the world needs them. But the thing about doctor Hoover,
7:40
Speaker 1: the fact that he did this, he was essentially married
7:44
Speaker 1: to his work. And you'll find many people that are
7:46
Speaker 1: like this, that operate at that high level. There's no
7:50
Speaker 1: way I could do it. I don't have the intellectual capability.
7:54
Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes this is what's amazing about him.
7:56
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's the case with every neurosurgeon. Don't
7:59
Speaker 1: get me wrong, don't misquote me. Many times they're so
8:04
Speaker 1: very intense. Have you ever met somebody that's so very
8:07
Speaker 1: intellectually intense that it almost seems like they'll brush you off,
8:10
Speaker 1: or they don't have time for you, or maybe they
8:12
Speaker 1: don't have a good bedside manner if they're a physician.
8:15
Speaker 1: That's not Devon Hoover. He had a way about him,
8:20
Speaker 1: that his patients, these people that he treated, genuinely liked
8:25
Speaker 1: this guy. And by extension, he's got this beautiful home
8:31
Speaker 1: that he's probably dumped. You can only imagine how much money,
8:34
Speaker 1: because it's not just once you have an old home,
8:37
Speaker 1: just to upkeep alone, and can you imagine on twelve
8:40
Speaker 1: thousand square feet just to upkeep along is a real burden.
8:45
Speaker 1: But he's inviting people to his home. He was regarded
8:48
Speaker 1: as kind of a warm, hospitable person. And the horror
8:52
Speaker 1: of this case is the fact that the house is
8:55
Speaker 1: the site of this a place that probably brought a
8:58
Speaker 1: lot of joy. I can only imagine just looking at
9:01
Speaker 1: this place externally, how beautiful this thing would have been decorated,
9:05
Speaker 1: probably at Christmas time. I'm sure it was striking. It
9:08
Speaker 1: was probably if they have a tour of homes, it
9:11
Speaker 1: was probably on the tour of homes warm and inviting.
9:15
Speaker 1: And it's something so horrible could happen to this man
9:20
Speaker 1: that was so beloved and so skilled at what he did.
9:24
Speaker 1: And it's not just hospitality and his outreach to the community.
9:28
Speaker 1: It's the fact that Dave he could go in and
9:32
Speaker 1: he could actually aid in the repair and recovery of
9:38
Speaker 1: people that had sustained catastrophic injuries. Every article that I
10:03
Speaker 1: have read about doctor Hoover's homicide has included the word,
10:08
Speaker 1: and it's a compound word, crawl space. That word sends
10:14
Speaker 1: a chill up my spine every time I hear it,
10:18
Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, the first thing I
10:19
Speaker 1: think about when I hear crawl space is John Wayne Gacy.
10:22
Speaker 1: I always think about the bodies that were buried beneath
10:26
Speaker 1: his house in the crawl space, when he victimized all
10:29
Speaker 1: those young men for so many years. But that's not
10:32
Speaker 1: the case in doctor Hoover's homicide. He's actually found Dave
10:37
Speaker 1: in a unique location, in this beautiful home. He's found
10:41
Speaker 1: in the attic crawl space.
10:44
Speaker 2: This is a man who lives alone. Fifty three year old.
10:47
Speaker 2: He is single. He's a single minded kind of fella.
10:51
Speaker 2: He was born in Indiana. He was the fourth child
10:54
Speaker 2: of seven and he was the only boy in his family.
10:58
Speaker 2: Before he went to college, he worked on a dairy farm.
11:01
Speaker 2: The guy that became one of the best of the
11:03
Speaker 2: best neurosurgeon. His family and friends were a priority in
11:06
Speaker 2: his life. There was a quote from his obituary he
11:09
Speaker 2: rarely missed a Hoover family event and made the drive
11:12
Speaker 2: to Indiana frequently to visit his parents and sisters, often
11:15
Speaker 2: playing with his many nieces and nephews. He spent quality
11:18
Speaker 2: time with many friends and enjoyed traveling with them to
11:21
Speaker 2: unique places around the world. Now, when you put that
11:25
Speaker 2: with what we talked about, how his neighbors talked about him.
11:29
Speaker 2: One neighbor actually said for a man small in stature,
11:33
Speaker 2: he was indeed larger than life. Yet he didn't show
11:38
Speaker 2: up for a family event in Indiana as expected, and
11:40
Speaker 2: because he was always in tune with his family, when
11:43
Speaker 2: he didn't show up, the family called for the police
11:47
Speaker 2: to go by. Police show up at this palatial home,
11:50
Speaker 2: this twelve thousand square foot nine bedroom estate that was
11:54
Speaker 2: a showplace, and they saw enough that led them to
11:59
Speaker 2: find you mentioned crassbas in the attic. How does a
12:03
Speaker 2: fifty three year old man with no enemies end up
12:07
Speaker 2: dead in the attic?
12:08
Speaker 1: Cross base At the time of our taping here, we
12:12
Speaker 1: still don't know who did this. Okay, they released a
12:16
Speaker 1: bit of tantalizing information here, and I'm so glad you
12:19
Speaker 1: picked up on this. They said that he was not
12:23
Speaker 1: just dragged to this location where his body was finally found, David.
12:27
Speaker 1: They said he was dragged face down, and you're thinking, well,
12:31
Speaker 1: how can you actually arrive at that conclusion. That information
12:34
Speaker 1: is actually coming from the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, which,
12:38
Speaker 1: by the way, is one of the most storied offices
12:41
Speaker 1: in the history of forensic pathologists. This is actually the
12:44
Speaker 1: place where doctor Verner Spitz did a lot of his work.
12:47
Speaker 1: And doctor Spitz is one of the co authors of
12:51
Speaker 1: what we regard as our bible in forensic science medical
12:56
Speaker 1: legal investigation of death, and it was first published back
12:59
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six. So the place that did his examination,
13:03
Speaker 1: that did the examination on doctor Hoover's remains is a
13:07
Speaker 1: top location for assessment of trauma, okay, as it applies
13:14
Speaker 1: to post mortem assessment. And what they're saying is that
13:17
Speaker 1: he was found in this crawl space, but he had
13:20
Speaker 1: been drug there face down. So when people are saying
13:24
Speaker 1: drug face down, first off, what are we thinking, Well,
13:29
Speaker 1: we're thinking that perhaps there was some kind of manifestation
13:34
Speaker 1: on his body that would give an indication first off,
13:38
Speaker 1: that he was drug Well, how do we conclude that, Well,
13:41
Speaker 1: if blood is streaked in a particular way. Okay, perhaps
13:46
Speaker 1: that's the case. Say that it's on one contact surface
13:48
Speaker 1: and not on the other, and you have this kind
13:50
Speaker 1: of strided appearance of say, for instance, blood that's been
13:53
Speaker 1: left behind. And when I say strided, that literally means streaks, okay,
13:58
Speaker 1: or kind of linear streak. Another thing, was there any
14:03
Speaker 1: kind of post mortem trauma to the body? Well, what
14:06
Speaker 1: would that mean? Well, the body can be scraped in
14:09
Speaker 1: a post mortem state. You can actually knock away the
14:12
Speaker 1: top layer of skin that won't have the same kind
14:16
Speaker 1: of abrasian appearance that we have during life, where it
14:19
Speaker 1: becomes red and irritated. And we've all fallen at some
14:22
Speaker 1: point in our time and skinned our knees or skinned
14:24
Speaker 1: our elbows, and we know what an abrasion looks like.
14:26
Speaker 1: And of course we know that the dead don't bruise,
14:29
Speaker 1: but you can have markings on a body that would
14:31
Speaker 1: give you an indication of some kind of what we
14:33
Speaker 1: refer to as post mortem trauma. Now, a third way
14:39
Speaker 1: that this could happen, and perhaps one of the most chilling,
14:45
Speaker 1: is that we wonder well had post mortem changes begun
14:50
Speaker 1: to take place to the point where there was a
14:53
Speaker 1: reorientation of the body from where it had initially laid
14:59
Speaker 1: to where it was finally found resting. And what I
15:01
Speaker 1: mean by that, one of the things that we would
15:03
Speaker 1: look for is deposition of post mortem lividity. In other words,
15:07
Speaker 1: that settling of blood. Did you have, say, for instance,
15:10
Speaker 1: a presentation where the blood had settled on the front
15:17
Speaker 1: side of the body, Okay, what's referred to as the
15:19
Speaker 1: anterior aspect, And maybe there was no presentation on the back,
15:24
Speaker 1: but yet you've got post mortem trauma on the back
15:27
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication that they were initially laying
15:29
Speaker 1: in one position and then drug vis v the other
15:32
Speaker 1: side of the body. It could be flip flopped either way.
15:35
Speaker 1: So we don't know a lot right now at this
15:37
Speaker 1: point to kind of put a fine point on that.
15:40
Speaker 1: But the reason that's so chilling is you begin to think, well,
15:44
Speaker 1: whoever did this to him, and what they did to
15:46
Speaker 1: him was quite shocking. Whoever did this to him? Did
15:50
Speaker 1: they sit there with a body while post mortem changes
15:53
Speaker 1: began to take place, and that there was evidence regarding
15:58
Speaker 1: that on the examination of the body or at the scene.
16:01
Speaker 1: Was that measured in any way? Because what's key here
16:05
Speaker 1: is kind of and I always fall back to this
16:07
Speaker 1: as the post mortal interval, that time that has elapsed
16:10
Speaker 1: since doctor Hoover unfortunately drew his last breath to the
16:15
Speaker 1: point in which he was moved, and then beyond that
16:19
Speaker 1: to the point in which he was discovered. How long
16:22
Speaker 1: had he actually been down? And that's going to be
16:25
Speaker 1: key in this case. Who would have access to him
16:29
Speaker 1: in this grand home in which he dwells. Who would
16:32
Speaker 1: purpose to do this kind of harm to this man
16:35
Speaker 1: that had done so much for so many people over
16:39
Speaker 1: the years, who was beloved, Who would traumatize him to
16:44
Speaker 1: this degree? We do know this, whoever perpetrated this crime
16:49
Speaker 1: felt comfortable enough to take a handgun and shoot doctor
16:54
Speaker 1: Hoover execution style in the head twice. But when you
17:20
Speaker 1: see a big house, you ride by it, you look
17:23
Speaker 1: at it, at least I do, and I think, you know,
17:25
Speaker 1: what in the world goes on in there? You think
17:29
Speaker 1: what kind of history in dwells those walls, What has
17:32
Speaker 1: that structure born witness to over the years. And when
17:35
Speaker 1: I think attic in a big home like that, you
17:38
Speaker 1: always think of some kind of scary movie or something
17:41
Speaker 1: where you've got mannequins, you know, in dwelling the area
17:43
Speaker 1: and old boxes and all that sort of thing. But
17:46
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the attic in this place
17:48
Speaker 1: was probably a storage location that doctor Hoover would have
17:52
Speaker 1: gone into regularly. He's probably always decorating his home. Certainly,
17:55
Speaker 1: you think around the holidays he's going to be inviting
17:57
Speaker 1: people over. Maybe kept his his Christmas decorations or Easter
18:01
Speaker 1: decorations or those sorts of things up in the attic
18:03
Speaker 1: so you'd have easy access to them.
18:06
Speaker 2: Joe, let me back up for a second. Let me
18:08
Speaker 2: get back to this. I'm curious as to how this happens,
18:10
Speaker 2: and you're gonna have to fill in the blanks.
18:12
Speaker 1: All right.
18:12
Speaker 2: We've got doctor Hoover, his family asks the police to
18:16
Speaker 2: go by and do a welfare check. When they get there,
18:20
Speaker 2: we don't know if there was anybody there when they
18:22
Speaker 2: got there. We know the police said there was no
18:24
Speaker 2: forced entry, and they believe that doctor Hoover knew who
18:29
Speaker 2: did this to him. So staying with that, I'm trying
18:32
Speaker 2: to picture what did the police see when they got
18:35
Speaker 2: in there that led them to the attic, Because obviously
18:39
Speaker 2: you mentioned the person that did this, they felt comfortable
18:42
Speaker 2: enough in the home to shoot him dead. In one
18:45
Speaker 2: place and to drag his body you mentioned face down.
18:48
Speaker 2: I mean, who does that if you care about somebody,
18:51
Speaker 2: even if you have done this, all I could think
18:54
Speaker 2: of is dragging this person upstairs with his head hitting
18:58
Speaker 2: every stair along the way.
19:00
Speaker 1: You know, you hear us talk a lot in forensics
19:03
Speaker 1: about drag marks and those sorts of things. As I
19:06
Speaker 1: had mentioned, or I had alluded to, doctor Hoover sustained
19:09
Speaker 1: massive head trauma. He actually sustained two gunshot wounds to
19:13
Speaker 1: the head.
19:14
Speaker 2: One of those wasn't closed and the other one was
19:15
Speaker 2: how do they know that, Joe? How do they determine this.
19:18
Speaker 1: The way this is determined? First off, if you look
19:21
Speaker 1: at the one that they're referring to as an indeterminate distance,
19:26
Speaker 1: which what that means is it's and dependent upon the
19:28
Speaker 1: weapon that's used. You have to kind of qualify that
19:31
Speaker 1: when you say that anything that's essentially about eighteen inches
19:35
Speaker 1: away from the point of impact, you're not going to
19:40
Speaker 1: have any kind of sid deposition or powder deposition around
19:44
Speaker 1: the wound. You're certainly not going to have what's referred
19:47
Speaker 1: to as like a gas injury, where you'll get kind
19:49
Speaker 1: of a stell eight wound that you see with like
19:52
Speaker 1: press contact stell eate like stellar. Okay, that's where it
19:56
Speaker 1: comes from. Star shape here people say star shaped wound
19:59
Speaker 1: because the skin kind of tears when that happens. Well,
20:01
Speaker 1: you're not going to have that presentation with indeterminate range.
20:05
Speaker 1: That means that they will be shot from some distance
20:08
Speaker 1: and you don't know. You still don't know anything about sequencing.
20:11
Speaker 1: Some people will say, well, they've shot at a distance
20:13
Speaker 1: and then someone moves in and shoots them close. Well,
20:17
Speaker 1: you don't know that. You can have individuals that are
20:20
Speaker 1: actually executed with a contact gunshot wound and then just
20:23
Speaker 1: for the coup de gra if, you will, in this
20:26
Speaker 1: person's mind, they're going to shoot them again. And this
20:28
Speaker 1: is as they've moved away from the body. So you
20:29
Speaker 1: can't there's no way you can go back and look
20:32
Speaker 1: at this and say well, this was actually the sequence
20:34
Speaker 1: of events, unless you just have somebody that just pops
20:36
Speaker 1: up and says, well, this is what happened. But no
20:39
Speaker 1: evidence of that distant wound. But the other wound that
20:43
Speaker 1: they talk about, there's actually a muzzling print that's left behind,
20:48
Speaker 1: and what that means is that when the muzzle of
20:53
Speaker 1: the weapon that means the end of the barrel actually
20:55
Speaker 1: contacts the surface of the skin, you will get an
20:59
Speaker 1: impression and it's really impressive to see from a forensic standpoint.
21:04
Speaker 1: You can actually see an impression of the structure of
21:10
Speaker 1: the barrel underneath many times, and sometimes you'll actually see
21:14
Speaker 1: a circular ring around the area as well. That will
21:18
Speaker 1: lead you to conclude that this weapon was so close
21:22
Speaker 1: that when it was discharged with such force, it actually
21:25
Speaker 1: left an imprint on the skin of the end of
21:27
Speaker 1: the weapon. And it's almost like a negative image, you
21:30
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, like a photograph, And so that
21:33
Speaker 1: gives you proximity, doesn't it in that particular case, And
21:36
Speaker 1: it also gives you an indication of intimacy that this
21:40
Speaker 1: individual whoever fired this weapon had the ability to get
21:44
Speaker 1: that close to doctor Hoover when they discharge the weapon,
21:49
Speaker 1: and when you begin to think about things like intimacy.
21:52
Speaker 1: Here's something that's quite interesting from an investigative standpoint. When
21:56
Speaker 1: he's found, he's found unclosed. Now he's covered in several
22:00
Speaker 1: layers of blankets. I think there's a carpet that's involved
22:05
Speaker 1: that he was covered with. But when we are nude,
22:09
Speaker 1: we are at our most vulnerable because you're not covered,
22:12
Speaker 1: your shame involved perhaps or they've made you take your
22:16
Speaker 1: clothes off at gunpoint. And this is kind of a
22:18
Speaker 1: dehumanization thing that takes place many times. So you've got
22:22
Speaker 1: him in the state, and he's in the state when
22:24
Speaker 1: he is found. Back to how they began to understand
22:29
Speaker 1: what the point of origin is and that is where
22:31
Speaker 1: the event may have taken place. There's no indication of that,
22:35
Speaker 1: but they know that he was drug so that tells
22:38
Speaker 1: us that there's evidence that there is perhaps a blood
22:41
Speaker 1: trail leading to the attic. And one thing that really
22:46
Speaker 1: resonates with me, David, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't
22:48
Speaker 1: you make reference to the fact that he was diminutive
22:52
Speaker 1: in size. He's kind of a smaller guy.
22:54
Speaker 2: A neighbor had said that for a man small in stature,
22:57
Speaker 2: he was indeed larger than life, So that makes us
23:00
Speaker 2: he was not a big man.
23:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, So where are you going to drag him unless
23:04
Speaker 1: perhaps you've dehumanized him, where you're going to treat him
23:07
Speaker 1: like an animal that you shot, or that the person
23:10
Speaker 1: that did this may not have the physical strength to
23:14
Speaker 1: put their hands or put their arms beneath them and
23:16
Speaker 1: cradle them, or maybe they just find this level of
23:20
Speaker 1: trauma and gore, because it would have been a significant
23:23
Speaker 1: amount of gored. And when I say that, I mean
23:25
Speaker 1: because anytime there's trauma to the head where you have
23:29
Speaker 1: blood and certainly many times you'll have brain matter that's
23:33
Speaker 1: actually extruding through the head through the injuries, people might
23:37
Speaker 1: not want to get that on themselves. So maybe that's
23:39
Speaker 1: the reason you drug him up there. Here's the thing.
23:42
Speaker 1: Whoever put him in that location, they knew about that location.
23:46
Speaker 1: They knew that that attic cross space existed. That's intimate knowledge.
23:52
Speaker 2: And the fact that I want to go back to
23:53
Speaker 2: the gunshots to the head because you made a couple
23:56
Speaker 2: of statements there, and I'm curious because we do have
23:58
Speaker 2: two shots, and to the police report or the autopsy,
24:02
Speaker 2: he had abrasions on his face suggesting he was in
24:07
Speaker 2: a prone position with the left side of his face
24:10
Speaker 2: resting against some kind of surface when he was shot.
24:15
Speaker 2: Could they determine, based on this and other factors, were
24:18
Speaker 2: both of these shots potentially fatal or was one shot?
24:23
Speaker 2: Could you determine that this shot wounded in but this
24:25
Speaker 2: was the kill shot?
24:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps anytime the head is involved, and gunfire is involved,
24:31
Speaker 1: you're going to have certainly the potential for fatal trauma.
24:35
Speaker 1: It's the one area of the body where even a
24:38
Speaker 1: glancing gunshot wound to the head can lead to a
24:42
Speaker 1: fatal outcome. The trick is and kind of the measure
24:45
Speaker 1: that forensic pathologists will look at this on balance. Most
24:49
Speaker 1: of the time they'll say, well, what created the most
24:51
Speaker 1: trauma in this particular case. They'll look at one injury
24:54
Speaker 1: and they say, is this potentially a survivable injury? Say,
24:59
Speaker 1: if it just clipped one area of the brain, if
25:03
Speaker 1: he had gotten medical treatment, could he have survived this?
25:07
Speaker 1: Whereas with the other one, maybe it passed through an
25:10
Speaker 1: area that controls the autonomic nervous system. Okay, where you
25:15
Speaker 1: just know that heartbeat is going to see, respiration is
25:19
Speaker 1: going to cease. All is so traumatic And not to
25:22
Speaker 1: mention if there is a muzzle stamp on this one injury,
25:26
Speaker 1: You're not just going to have dave the gunshot wound,
25:29
Speaker 1: which is bad enough that you're dealing with that's going
25:31
Speaker 1: to create this channel through the brain. You're also going
25:34
Speaker 1: to be fighting against things like say, for instance, the
25:38
Speaker 1: bone being blown apart in there and it creates additional
25:41
Speaker 1: little satellite fragments are shrapnel bone trapnel actually is what
25:46
Speaker 1: it turns out to be, and so it injures the
25:47
Speaker 1: brain in that way. And also you have to factor
25:50
Speaker 1: in if it's that close, you might have gas injuries.
25:53
Speaker 1: So with the gas injuries, you have hot gas, and
25:57
Speaker 1: we all know what hot gas does. That rapidly expands,
26:00
Speaker 1: it goes into the cranial vault, and you'll have this
26:03
Speaker 1: massive fracturing that takes place in the skull. So you've
26:05
Speaker 1: gotten multiple things that multiple layers here that are occurring
26:09
Speaker 1: that any number of these scenes could be fatal in
26:11
Speaker 1: and of himself.
26:12
Speaker 2: Now we know that he was wrapped in a blank
26:14
Speaker 2: you mentioned this, and the actual order they said that
26:16
Speaker 2: he was wrapped in a sheet, then carpeting or then
26:20
Speaker 2: a rug, and then carpeting was laid over the top
26:23
Speaker 2: of his body in that cross space. And we know
26:26
Speaker 2: that he was shot and killed when he was naked
26:28
Speaker 2: with one sock dark sock on his foot. You mentioned
26:32
Speaker 2: being humiliated by being nude and being taken down like this.
26:37
Speaker 2: Would there have been when the police are on the
26:40
Speaker 2: scene trying to figure everything out, would they be taking
26:42
Speaker 2: like clippings under his fingernails to see if there was
26:45
Speaker 2: a little bit of a fight or anything.
26:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would, and typically that's going to happen at
26:48
Speaker 1: the more people will see us at scenes where we
26:52
Speaker 1: bag the hands, and we've talked about that in previous episodes.
26:55
Speaker 1: But our hands are those things through which we defend ourselves.
27:00
Speaker 1: It's those things through which we just from a tactile
27:03
Speaker 1: sense that we sense the world around us. I mean
27:06
Speaker 1: even the small children. We're touching things. Okay, it's an
27:09
Speaker 1: extension of our brain essentially, and we're touching things and
27:12
Speaker 1: that information is coming in. So the hands are bagged
27:15
Speaker 1: traditionally at the scene, and then when we get the
27:18
Speaker 1: body into a controlled environment at the morgue, we'll do
27:22
Speaker 1: nail scrapings. Okay, we'll do the nail scrapings. We'll catch
27:26
Speaker 1: all of the debris that are under the fingernails because
27:29
Speaker 1: this is very intimate event. Remember he's nude. And then
27:31
Speaker 1: we'll do nail clippings to look if anything is there
27:35
Speaker 1: in the clippings themselves. And they will probably believe it
27:39
Speaker 1: or not. They would probably do a gunshot residue test
27:43
Speaker 1: on his hands. People might not think about that, but
27:45
Speaker 1: we actually do to see if, for instance, if there
27:49
Speaker 1: was any way let's say, say, for instance, the gunshot
27:52
Speaker 1: wounds to the back of the head, which we think
27:53
Speaker 1: that it approximates. Those two gunshot ones are essentially in
27:58
Speaker 1: the rear word areas of the head. If he's got
28:01
Speaker 1: his hands up okay, behind his head, and he shot
28:04
Speaker 1: in the head, that can be a valuable piece of
28:06
Speaker 1: information as to his posture, what his relationship was with
28:11
Speaker 1: the individual that shot him, a physical relationship from the
28:15
Speaker 1: end of the muzzle to his body, and you might
28:18
Speaker 1: have soot deposition on the hands, so you'll do that.
28:22
Speaker 1: And of course here's the most glaring thing many people
28:25
Speaker 1: don't actually think about. Dave. I don't know if you've
28:28
Speaker 1: thought about this, but even though he's a male, he's nude.
28:32
Speaker 1: Guess what we're gonna do. Actually gonna do a rape kit.
28:34
Speaker 1: We're gonna do rape kit on him. And some people
28:36
Speaker 1: don't think that we do those on males, but we do.
28:38
Speaker 1: We actually do.
28:40
Speaker 2: It actually makes sense when you think about the fact
28:42
Speaker 2: that he is naked and rolled up in a blanket.
28:45
Speaker 2: If he was shot in the back of the head
28:48
Speaker 2: due to a bad debt and left you, they wouldn't
28:50
Speaker 2: take trouble to hide him orning else, because obviously whoever
28:52
Speaker 2: did this Joe did not take a lot of time
28:55
Speaker 2: to clean up or anything else. Because police were able
28:58
Speaker 2: to go there on a welfare check and find his
29:00
Speaker 2: body in the attic. They were able to do that
29:03
Speaker 2: in a welfare check, So obviously they didn't walk in
29:06
Speaker 2: and go, hey, everything looks fine here.
29:08
Speaker 1: And turn around taking it on the heel. No, no, no,
29:11
Speaker 1: they saw evidence of something had occurred in this environment.
29:14
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was quite horrific when these police officers
29:17
Speaker 1: showed up and they're looking through the house or doing
29:20
Speaker 1: a safety check. It's a welfare check. They can you
29:23
Speaker 1: imagine if it's two of them. I have this vision
29:26
Speaker 1: in my mind, this image in my mind of one
29:28
Speaker 1: guy looking at the other guy and saying, oh, this
29:30
Speaker 1: doesn't look good. And then they followed the blood trail
29:32
Speaker 1: and it leads into some small door up in the
29:34
Speaker 1: attic area, and there they find his remains in there.
29:38
Speaker 1: And here's a big piece. Remember what you said early on,
29:41
Speaker 1: they said there was no signs of forced entry at
29:44
Speaker 1: this place, so that gives you an indication that the
29:47
Speaker 1: individual may have been there before that they knew the doctor.
29:52
Speaker 1: And also we go back to this idea of covering
29:55
Speaker 1: up the body. Why do you want to cover the body?
29:58
Speaker 1: What's your purpose for cut? You just executed this man.
30:02
Speaker 1: Why are you going to go and not just covering once?
30:05
Speaker 1: You're going to layer him. It's almost like you're tucking
30:08
Speaker 1: him in. Why are you going to put all these
30:10
Speaker 1: layers on top of him? What's your purpose you're trying
30:13
Speaker 1: to hide him? Well, we know that you've taken him
30:15
Speaker 1: to the cross space up there, but why go to
30:18
Speaker 1: all of that trouble? Again? If his face was covered,
30:22
Speaker 1: we can assume that it was. Many times, face covering
30:24
Speaker 1: is associated with an intimate act because the individual does
30:27
Speaker 1: not want to look the individual in the face that
30:29
Speaker 1: they've just done this great harm to.
30:31
Speaker 2: Oh, now that makes sense. I'm actually I was confused
30:34
Speaker 2: about how a guy that is naked with one sock on,
30:37
Speaker 2: shot twice in the head, then drug on his face
30:41
Speaker 2: up to his what will be a temporary final resting place.
30:44
Speaker 2: But then the perpetrator takes the time to roll him
30:46
Speaker 2: up in three layers of blanket and carpet and then
30:49
Speaker 2: placing him in this cross space so that he's covered
30:53
Speaker 2: up after this humiliation and devastating act.
30:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got to tell you, Dave, I have
30:58
Speaker 1: real hope in this case that they're going to find
30:59
Speaker 1: out who did this. I know that they have taken
31:02
Speaker 1: somebody into custody, they had to release them, but they
31:05
Speaker 1: have taken one person into custody and questioned them and
31:08
Speaker 1: subsequently released them. What's this area like, Well, we've determined
31:13
Speaker 1: that doctor Hoover's home is quite fine. It's quite palatial.
31:18
Speaker 1: As we said when we started this conversation, I would
31:21
Speaker 1: think that there would be security cameras around this area,
31:24
Speaker 1: and I would think that if the police went around
31:28
Speaker 1: and they were to collect footage. Now a lot of
31:30
Speaker 1: this is going to be depended upon the time of
31:32
Speaker 1: day when it happened, they might be able to collect
31:34
Speaker 1: an image. And of course, as we know in all
31:37
Speaker 1: cases like this, that as you begin to work the case,
31:42
Speaker 1: you extend outward. Who are the intimates in his life,
31:46
Speaker 1: Who has he had recent contact with, who has he
31:49
Speaker 1: had a beef with, who has he maybe been in
31:53
Speaker 1: a relationship with, who would want to absolutely destroy this
31:58
Speaker 1: fine man. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags
32:27
Speaker 1: h