Latest / A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast / The Power of Poetry w/ Heather Beamish

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The Power of Poetry w/ Heather Beamish · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, the Presby podcast, a podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to send us your question because why should people send us a question, Lee?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Because y'all, if it matters to you, it matters to us.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And of course, it pretty much is probably a matter of faith, right?
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: .
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Hey, Simon.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Hey, Hey Lee.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: And for folks, just so you're aware, if you're interested, just within our conversation with the guests, you can find that timestamp in the show description in the show notes.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: And without further ado, yes, Lee, I am doing okay.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I was telling Lee prior to, uh, our recording starting that I did something very stupid and accidentally chip to tooth a little bit.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And that's just not fun.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like that, it's just something that, like you always notice once it's happened,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: It's always gonna be there.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: The worst wounds are self-inflicted.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: And for, without getting into details, this one was my own fault,, and sometimes we just have to learn, but I'm also slowly approaching the ripe old age of 30.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: And I also just feel like maybe my body is just falling apart.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Well get ready.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: It will continue to happen as you, as you age, cuz Simon and I are, well, I'm 35, so we're, I'm a little older and I mean, we're talking like we're, I mean, we're in pretty good shape for people though, so I will have to say
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: No, that's very fair fire.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: We're, and we're very blessed to be able bodied and, and to be able to, to move and function in healthy ways.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: But, but nobody likes to chip tooth.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: No, not at all.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Especially when it's just like your own fault.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: So just remember folks, be smart when you eat.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: I'll leave it at that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Check the olives, pits and food.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: You know, don't bite down too hard on your fork.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: That's how I chip mine the first time.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: , I don't know.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: But I mean, I go to the dentist all the time, so they have a lot of different ways to get it fixed.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I have this vision of it'll
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Be just fine.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I have this vision of you with a dentist on speed dial.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I probably do.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I have to go every four months because genetically my teeth are just not great.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And that's how it is sometimes.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: So y'all go get your teeth cleaned, it'll change your life, and there are dentists out there who won't shame you, which is what my problem was.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: And that's how this became a matter of dentistry.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Dentists out there, don't shame your, your patience.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Give them a good talking to, but don't shame them.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: So, well,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Speaking of shame,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: , I,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: That's a rough segue, but also accurate.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't, why don't you tell folks a little bit about some of the stuff going on in the news, Lee?
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Well, it is a shame and they should be shameful of themselves, but this week, uh, the Montana g o p decides to block a trans lawmaker from speaking, citing that it was a decorum issue.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: And I'm looking on the NPR r article about it.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: But the representative house, uh, speaker of Montana refuse to acknowledge or let representative Zoe Zephyr, a Democrat speak.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And she is the first transgender woman elected to the state legislature.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: And yeah, she wants to speak against these gender affirming, uh, anti gender reaffirming bills and anti-trans bills, and they just simply will not let her do so.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And she is basically citing what all, like the American Medical Association and other medical journals saying that gender affirming care actually saves lives.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: It improves the physical and mental health of transgender and gender diverse people, is what it says.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: So that's happening all over our country now, and it seems that they may censor her or expel her, and it's the same things we've seen in Tennessee.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: And so it's just kind of scary and just standing for people standing up for what is right and standing up for each other's humanity.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: And so, as people of faith, I hope we continue to speak out against it and stand up for medical care that can save lives.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: It can.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: And so if people are looking for ways to think about creatively expressing their voice, and whether it be advocacy or personally, we think that you might really enjoy this upcoming segment with our guest, Heather Beamish, who is a author and a poet and a speaker.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: She is the author of her own book, homecoming, and she's gonna talk to us about the power of spoken word and poetry, which might be helpful if you're trying to think about how to incorporate creative elements into your advocacy or into your own creative expression of faith and identity.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: So we hope that you enjoy this conversation with Heather Beamish.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Well, joining us on the podcast today is a very, very special guest.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: We have Heather Beamish, who is an author, artist, and speaker, and the author of Homecoming joining us on the podcast today.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Heather, you're so glad you were with us today.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: Aw, thank you.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: It's so good to be here.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: We're, we're really, we've been really looking forward to this conversation for a while.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: And we have a question that we're hoping you can help us think through.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: The question reads, we hear sermons, hymns, and songs in church all the time, but aren't there other ways to express our own faith and identity, such as through poetry?
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: What makes this particular form such a unique and powerful expression of faith?
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Why don't we hear poetry used as often as other art forms in our faith communities?
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: Oh, what a great question.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: It's like, it's an honor to be here, and I'm really excited to talk about poetry and art and how it intersects with, um, faith and the unique expressions found in each of our communities.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: As mentioned, I am a poet and speaker, and now because of the release of my baby homecoming, I am also a newly minted author.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: So for me, like art takes up a lot of space in my life, and it's been such a container and a catalyst for healing expression, um, just for the movement of the energy of emotion through my body, through my being, helping me to feel into the heights and the depths and the disappointments of life.
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: And I think that our spiritual communities need more of that.
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: That's why I feel like I, I mean, even growing up, I was always drawn to the Psalms and David, and, uh, and how he sat with, you know, his disappointments and the struggles and the joy.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: And he just really let himself lean into that through poetry.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: And it was a little dramatic and it was a little messy.
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: It was always real.
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: And I think that that's something that poetry just makes space for.
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: It makes space for those real human emotions, those real messy conversations.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: And I think that that helps community to thrive, because if people can show up as their full selves in their imperfections, in their, you know, in their tears and in their dance, then, then that just makes space for the seasons of life.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: And I think that's why poetry is so beautiful, and I'm so thankful for the gift of poetry and how it's helped me heal
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: It.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: It is very healing.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: And, and I often wonder because, because poetry can be uncontained, and it is very freeing a lot of the time when, when I have had those experiences and when I've kind of engaged in poetry.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: And I wonder if like, sometimes our faith communities get scared of that.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Like, it's scared of the freedom because there's sometimes where, I mean, I think like the songs, what is it?
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: What's the other book Song of Solomon or something like that?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: The, yeah, those, those which they're very, like, you don't hear them very often because they are so, like, many times they're very liberating and you can't contain it.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: And they talk about things the church doesn't want to talk about, like eroticism and sex and things like that.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder about that too.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Like, I think oftentimes faith communities may be a little scared of it because it is so liberating when it should be the complete opposite of, of what that is and how we are drawn to it.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Because I think people are kind of drawn to it, but they're also level, fearful level.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Of course,
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: They're, we're drawn to it because it's an invitation to be embodied.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: And I think that like, that's the beautiful art is not something that like you just intellectualize.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: It has to be felt like art invites us to feel.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: And I think that the, a lot of times, like when we're talking about control and we're talking about power and systems and institutions that don't want people to really be liberated, they just actually sometimes just wanna puppet and control them, then like these conversations that are, that are invitations into expression and liberation are scary because that actually puts power.
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: It empowers the people who lean into those expressions, you know?
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: And I think that's why, um, like poetry has been such a healing container for me as a woman of color who spent years pastoring in evangelical spaces.
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: Like poetry has invited me to step into and feel into all of the diverse, nuanced expressions of my humanity.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: And because, um, like I'm the artist and I get to like write it, those expressions are affirming and they're full of love.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: And that love, honestly, has been nurtured by my connection to higher power.
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: Like the scriptures, I sit in them, I read them, I hear God tell me that I'm made with purpose.
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: That everything about me is intentional and loved.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: And no matter what happens in life, I have, uh, someone I can lean on and walk through the hard valleys with.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: Like, that's empowering and channeling that into affirmations and poetic songs and, and chance like that is for me, that has been so liberating.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: And I just love every chance I get to speak those affirmations over my community.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: So, if you don't mind, I actually have a piece that, um, that is kind of like, it's like my own personal psalm.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: So that's like, the Psalms are always my favorite like book because of, you know, David Artis poet.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: So, um, I, I just, I love that.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: And so I wrote this piece just as a reflection in a prayer, um, a a gratitude to higher power for how she has held me and nurtured me through every dark valley and every hard season.
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: And so this piece is called, she Paints My World with Wonder,, you make me wanna be a better person.
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: It feels so good living aligned with your ways.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: You ask me to pause and say thank you.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: You remind me to tilt up my gaze.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: You slow me down and sing songs of greatness and glory over my soul.
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: Your words cleanse, my doubting thoughts and fill my cracks so that I am whole.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: You color my world with wonder and invite me to make my home in the light.
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: You teach me how to lay down my suffering and sorrow turning my bareness into a starry starry night.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: You ask me to measure my building with the chords of love.
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: I like the fruit you are producing in me.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: You punctuate my days with peace and purpose.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: So I will say thank you with all my heart, with all my strength, with all of me.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Lee Lee's doing the clapping symbol in the clapping motion.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: That's absolutely beautiful.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: What I really like about that is that it is genuine, and not just the words, but also the way that you, the way that you deliver that, it's like you, we can feel and hear that through, uh, the way that you're speaking.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And that's so powerful when I think, yeah, I absolutely love that.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: And something that's amazing about all forms of art, but particularly well, yeah, all forms of art is that they can be celebratory, they can be, there can be gratitude in them.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: There also can be sharing moments of pain or doubt or, or wonder,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And something when, particularly when it comes to poetry that I think becomes difficult for some folks, including myself, is that I might sit down and be like, all right, I'm gonna give this poetry thing a shot, but then I know that it's, it's never gonna be perfect.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: And because I have already in my mind an idea of what it probably should be, oh, it doesn't rhyme, oh, it doesn't follow any of these conventions of what I was taught about what poetry is.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: But then the fact that I'm also stuck in conventions, maybe I'm missing the point, if that makes sense,.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And so I'm curious about what you would have to say to that about folks that might be be a little hesitant to pick up the, pick up the pen or sit down and type something up if they're looking to poetry in particular as a form of expression for themselves, especially related to their faith.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: What a great question, Simon.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: And thank you for just sharing how you personally engage with poetry.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: And like you, I know I un totally understand that can sometimes feel intimidating.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: I feel like growing up I was always the athlete.
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: And so like, I'm like super sporty and even to this day, like I play in like a women's basketball league here in the city, and like, it's a big part of my life, but then I, I'm also a deep feeling, um, you know, dynamic individual who doesn't have to go fit into one box.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: And so when I just like realized that, I was like, okay, freed up just to let it be a flow.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: And I would say that, um, yeah, I, I feel like poetry's beautiful because it just is not critical.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: It's not judgmental.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: It is so like art is so expansive, you know, like it is literally supposed to be your unique expression.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: So it doesn't, you know, for it to fit into, I know there's structures and like all those things that can be really helpful, but for it to have to look like something is just like, feels like it misses the whole point of art, right?
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: And so I would just say like, let it be like, turn off that critical voice in your mind and like lay aside all these like preconceived expectations and weights and all of that and just, and feel something for me that's been so beautiful that I've incorporated into my writing practice is, uh, embodied yoga before, um, I write.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: So, um, one of Billy's actually one of my best friends and we've been prepping cuz we're both going to speak at Harvard in a few weeks.
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: Yay.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Yay.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: So, um, we're so excited about that.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: And we've been meeting every week just to prepare our content and they are a amazing chi medical chigong practitioner.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: And so they've been teaching me these embodied movements and this, this beautiful practice of just like understanding and connecting with the, the flow and the energy flow of emotion in our body.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: And so now before I do my writing, I will take a moment and I will stretch and I will get into my body and I'll pause and I'll meditate.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: And this just really, um, sets a beautiful atmosphere for accessing the wisdom coiling within my veins, you know, and being in touch with what I'm feeling and getting really still and quiet so that I can be true to that voice.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: That that still small voice of intuition and, and wisdom that lives inside of each of us spirit, that access right there.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: So I love doing that.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: That's a beautiful, uh, practice.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: It's really honestly transformed my writing and helped me keep myself authentic and honest as I'm approaching the pen and just kind of letting myself surrender, like, like this liberating experience of just surrendering to whatever comes up.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: And that kind of makes the practice of writing holy for me.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: And I think that's why, for me it's a really powerful spiritual tool that, um, going back to kind of the first question that I think our spiritual communities could really benefit from, you know, that that voice of pain, like someone who sits with their, um, Leah as you were talking about before, some of that like, that that discomfort and that discrimination they field, when we open ourselves up and let ourselves hear the stories wrapped up in the art, um, wrapped up in the person's gifting of their experience to us, then that is just an invitation to healing, to see another person to be seen by someone.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: And I think that that is just something that we need more in our churches and in our spiritual spaces to help us bridge those gaps of division that we've created.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: And it, it, and it does kind of invite us into this like vulnerable space to where I think often, often in faith communities or churches or wherever you're at or just in general, I think, I think it's hard for people to be vulnerable just in general.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: And, and I think that there is this invitation within the arts to be vulnerable because I, so I am a songwriter, which is very analogous in a way to poetry.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: It starts out that way, you know, it starts out free flowing, whatever, like kind of surrendering yourself to the, to the process and things like that.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: But it's also very hard for me to perform in front of people.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: And that vulnerability and that judgment that you, that, that you kind of perceive coming at you and it's all these things impacting us whenever we are in these very vulnerable, when we're fearful or when we don't think we're good enough or mm-hmm.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: , you're gonna mess up.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And so it invites you as the person to kind of enter into that, that space of vulnerability.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Now you might not like react like I do cause I used to like projectile, I get so nervous.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I used to like throw up before I would have to sing in front of people.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Um, it's been there, But the process of it was like my, like, was kind of the thing that I really enjoyed.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And so it really does kind of open us up to this vulnerability that I think a lot of people of faith want to know how to be or want to know how to enter because I think we all have that issue that we don't want to be vulnerable and be authentic.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: And so it's really a way to kind of invite everyone.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Cuz I know when I, even when you're in the audience and someone might be performing and it may not be something of your expectation that you also then feel vulnerable and anxious because for that person, if that makes sense.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Cuz I also think we have expectations of people that, that are not realistic or that are way too high, especially in the arts.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, that doesn't look good or they don't sound very good.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: And it's very commercialized too in a way.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: So I do think it invites us into those vulnerable spaces and that that can be very life giving, I think.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: A
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: Hundred percent.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: I totally agree.
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: I think that like, vulnerability is so scary and it invites like criticism when you show up as your, I think that that's the part that's really hard for everyone, me included, um, is that you're like, if you put something out there that's really meaningful and genuine, then it's like it hurts even more if people have things to say about it.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: Um, something that I always like to do whenever I have opportunity to create space when I'm speaking or leading workshops or facilitating, I think that inviting everybody in the room to partake and participate in the creation of brave spaces is so important.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: And just setting that energy, um, embodying that posture, making sure with my words, with the direction of, of the tenants that we're gathering together with are aligning and elevating, uh, everybody.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: And I think that I say brave space and not safe space because it's like, you can't guarantee safety when, when being human, you know, like life is just, it's, it's uh, it's seasons, right?
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: It's messy.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: And so you can't guarantee that.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: But I think, uh, bravely inviting people into the practice of taking up space confidently, joyfully fully in all of their intersections and identities is a healing, vulnerable and necessary practice for us to stay connected to those human parts of ourselves.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: You know, like not letting ourselves get cut off or numb to those parts of, of us that, that, um, are human and that keep us wise and guide us, right?
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I think vulnerabilities is a hard practice, but it's an important one.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Uh, cuz when we can all safely and bravely, confidently take up space in in the fullness of ourselves, that's when that's when healing happens.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Cuz I think fragmentation and feelings of oppression are what breed and produce the, like, the people having to show up as fractured portions of themselves and hiding and shame and all of that can be dispelled when there's room for, when there's liberation, when there's, people are able to stand so fully in their truths that, that they are free.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: I think that's the, the picture of liberation for me.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: I think that going off of Lee's point about vulnerability, there is an aspect of having to be comfortable enough with your, into speaking your own truth with art mm-hmm.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: and especially poetry.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And I have a question for you about audience because there are times that we create art just for ourselves and there are times that we create art with sort of the purpose of sharing it mm-hmm.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: .
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: And those are two different things.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: And I think also we do a lot of, you know, people practice, people practice music, people practice, they do things on their own.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And then you only see the performance, you only see the book, you only hear the one speech or the one, uh, the one opportunity.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: And that one opportunity is the time that it's chosen to be shared, but we don't see all the hard work and all of the, the effort that went into prior to that very public facing experience.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And so yeah.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you about navigating that.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Sometimes this is just for me and sometimes this is to be shared, if that makes sense.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: Hundred percent.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: I love that question cuz I think you're, you're totally right.
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: Like there are definitely, um, like as a performer, presenter, curating, practicing, preparing is just all part of things that actually honor, like, honor the invitation that you've been given.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: But that, like, not all of my art is public.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: A hundred percent.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: I feel like I try to let myself lean into and, um, yeah, share stories and experiences that humanize the, uh, unique identities that I live in and take up space in.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: And I think that that is, uh, a beautiful gift that I feel like I get to share with the world.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: But there are definitely raw, um, vulnerable pieces that, you know, are just like in my journal for me, needed to process and move that energy for me, but are not meant to, you know, be public consumption.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: And I think that there's like wisdom in, you know, the idea of not throwing your precious pearls, uh, before the swine as Jesus would've said, you know, but like, just like taking and um, recognizing that those pearls have been, uh, created in, in pressured situations.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: And it's okay to give them and share them when trust is established.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I always do have to check in and ask myself, is this something that I'm comfortable, uh, sharing?
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: And if I don't feel like there's always safety, cuz uh, the truth is, is my identities are, are actively oppressed in a lot of, uh, Christian communities.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Like as a, I was a pastor in a conservative evangelical space and like pushed out, um, sent to re you know, conversion therapy, uh, told I was demonn possessed and shamed.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: And so it's like I'm not gonna be putting myself in spaces where my safety, uh, and mental health are at risk.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: It's like I, yeah, I vet the spaces.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: I am diligent.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: I can't guarantee complete safety, but um, I can do my practice and I can be grounded and I can magnify the voice of truth in my own mind.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: That, uh, and heart recognizing that I am like called and loved and you know, like dusting off the, my shoulders when I'm going to spaces and my, my identity is not honored.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: Um, my dignity is not recognized.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: And so I think that's a practice of discernment that I've been able to develop.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: And yeah, just knowing when, when to share and trusting the energy, um, and trusting my intuition.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: I think that's really big.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: Great question.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Thank you Simon.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I've, I've noticed a lot in a lot of faith circles or just, I mean, and sometimes in nonprofit circles where, and we see this a lot in our ministers and like the people who work in the church, they just give all of themselves Hmm.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: And they give all of themselves so much so that they don't know themselves.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Or they don't, they don't know exactly who they are.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: And I think that the arts and the processes of poetry or however you that manifest in you, it can really help you kind of take, take ownership of who you are because I mean, ultimately I believe that, I mean, God is who I am accountable to and the God who created me in, in all the ways that I am.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: And that, that there are ways for me to cherish that relationship in a personal way.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: I know, like I grew up very evangelical in South Carolina and there is for me something about a personal relationship with God.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: And I've taken and gleaned a little bit from that in that I have my, there are some things that I'm not gonna give of that, that I and God have with, with our own selves.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: And there's, I and there are also things that about myself that I share with very few people that, that doesn't necessarily need to be put out there to everybody else.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: And I think that those boundaries there and, and the way that we process those things, I've just seen it so much to where people just give so much and everything that they lose themselves.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: And I think that it does take a lot of processes and for me, the arts have helped, songwriting has helped me try to process what I'm thinking in a way and have ownership of my thoughts because it's kind of, it's kind of one of those things to where I see it on paper and I've created this thing and it's like something that I have created and it's kind of mine that, that, that has really kind of helped me process something.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And so that's really helped me to like mm-hmm.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: , I have very good boundaries when it comes to the work that I do.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: I don't give, like you said, I don't throw all my pearls in front of of people because we just can't, you know, we have to, we have to be who we are and, and to feel that safety.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: And so I think that that's very helpful for people to hear too, is that there are things that you can hold onto yourself and that is in and of itself very powerful too.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: And pe I think people do that, do a lot of the work.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: We do need to hear that.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: It's like, it's like you don't, you don't need to give all of yourself so much that you don't know who you are.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: And that's my biggest fear for people, I think is how we have the expectations and, and what that means for people and who they are.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: So, so yeah, cuz I got lost a long, I got lost.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I didn't know who I was for a very long time.
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: I, I couldn't agree more.
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: I feel like it was, it's glorified in a lot of like, the, uh, church spaces because that like selflessness that like be completely available, like my life for the gospel kind of energy was definitely a mantra that we were taught to live into.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: And just being very, yeah, self-sacrificing and not cultivating your own voice and trusting your own intuition and just following the rules of just like, this is how it is.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: Don't critically think through this.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: Don't question, don't trust the wisdom of your body.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: Um, conform is definitely how I felt a lot of times.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: So just stepping away from like full-time ministry and being able to just make space for okay, no, this is like, I'm leaning into what my body's telling me and I understand that there is like spirit lives in me and, um, I can trust the leading of the leadership of that internal voice because it's good.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: And, um, just updating some of those scripts has been really, really, uh, a huge component for my healing journey.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: Um, because I just, I think that the, I w I had internalized a lot of that shame, a lot of that, um, rhetoric that I was handed about, who I am and what I'm capable of and how I should see myself.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: And yeah, poetry has been a tool that I've used even for affirmation writing and, um, speaking truth, cuz I'm obsessed.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Obviously I'm, I'm a poet, but I'm not just a poet.
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: I'm a spoken word poet.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: And so for me, like the energy and understanding, um, the power that's wrapped up in the words that we share and speak over one another.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: And, um, also as a Christian and someone who like proverbs over and over and over again, like Jesus, all these people throughout the scriptures are telling us, Hey, there's, there's power, uh, in the word.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: And then, so just understanding that and harnessing that creative power that's in the word I love.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: I love, um, getting into rooms and I love being able to speak those promises and life giving, um, soul nourishing truths over communities that I get to be sharing with.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: And it's, it's honestly the best feeling because a lot of times, like since I am and multiracial and an artist and all these things, the, the groups that gather, the communities that I've been able to build and have relationship with are diverse and a lot of times have been marginalized.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: And so I feel like it's such a subversive, uh, powerful moment to be able to get in front of those people and speak the promises and the truths and the nourishing words of life over them.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: And it was actually during the writing of my book that I was able to sit with and update some of those scripts and write those affirmations over my own soul first.
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: And so this is one that I wrote first for myself, but is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite pieces just to speak over, um, my community.
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: So I wanna gift it to all of you listening right now.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: May I remind you that you are the universe incarnate her magnitude and splendor clothed in flesh and feelings as I look at you, I see her every time you embody joy, resilience and overcome yet another impossible, odd you look just like her, for you were created with a tender elegance and an unforgettable beauty.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: Your glittering curves were forged in the fires of lonely discovery.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: Cosmic hands were commissioned to design the deep wells of diversity that define your s your tender heart and fierce strides inspire movements of liberation.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: All the swirls and shapes of your embodied expression are needed and celebrated.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: Your essence is timeless, your presence is fragrant.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: You are magic and mystery perfected.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I needed that today.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: Mm.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so glad.
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: And I feel like it's just like, just being so intentional about speaking those good things over ourselves, understanding that there's life force, um, in our words that we speak and mm-hmm.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: .
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: That, and it's that energy and, and I'm all about like, the energy we put out and like the energy we also take in, you know, the energy that's around us.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: And, and it really is something that I don't think, I don't think we often want to admit that we need affirmation.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: That we deserve affirmation.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: And that, you know, especially like me being a person as, as well, I, we, we didn't get a lot of that mm-hmm.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: , we didn't mm-hmm.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: .
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Um, I was lucky.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I was, I'm very close to my mother and she would give affirmation as much as, I mean, I got it all the time from her, but I think like other than that, like, you know, sometimes it's good to, to just claim that you need that.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And I think we often don't want to even say like, oh, I could use that, or I could like, and then when you, and then when you, I I was in a meeting the other day and I kind of like affirmed some things that some people were doing here in this community and I don't even know how, I don't even think they knew how to take it, you know, how to take the affirmation and receive it.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Because it is something that when it comes to a lot of the systems that we're all in, it's not, it's not like the first and foremost thing that systems of oppression are not obviously are not affirming.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: And so it's, it's also how we receive it.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And I used to be like, oh, you know, like it kind of just bounced off.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: But when you do really absorb it and take in the energy, you can actually feel it.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: It is like a, a physicality to it that I think art and poetry manifest and it creates an energy that you, that you actually physically can feel within yourself.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Cause I felt it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: I felt it.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Thank
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: You for being open.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: I think that that's like honestly the biggest, that's when art is so healing in community and I feel like I love being able to share it because it's like that give and take of energy, it's like I'm pouring that energy on you and you feel like opened up and sit and there's room for you to show up as you're the fullness of yourself and you're nourished.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: And so I think that, yeah.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad you were open just to receive those words.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: I was really struck by the end of the last couple words.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Uh, you are magic and mystery perfected.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: kind of wanna put that on a, on a, on a piece of paper and put that in this office somewhere,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Remind myself every day of that.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Because that's beautiful.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: And again, that's an affirmation that I think we all need to, we need to hear and remind ourselves of that, cuz it's very easy to get caught up in the things we lack or the things we aren't able to do.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: I I wanted to ask one more question about sort of your journey with poetry.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Is it, so you've mentioned it multiple times throughout our conversation that, uh, how poetry has been such a, a, a healing and important part of, of your experience, particularly in term in terms of identity, but was poetry always something that you turned to, uh, from a young age?
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Or is it something that you more discovered at a certain point in time?
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: Hmm, that's a great question.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: I think that, like, I've always just in my journal, uh, you know, growing up in like a church space, I was always encouraged to do like daily devotions and like journal and all that kind of stuff.
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: And so that was al it's always been a big part of my life.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: Um, and so I would write little like, you know, like, uh, reflections and dramatic poems in my journal and, but I never shared them publicly until I came out.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: I left my, so my, the story is I left my church community and moved to Toronto.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: And so my church community was like a 30 minute, it's in a suburb 30 minutes away from Toronto.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: And I just needed some space away from that community and to get my head into like, to, to explore like, you know, is this, can, can my identities coincide?
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Can I be and Christian?
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: And I knew that there was some, uh, vibrant Christian communities in Toronto.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: So I was like, okay, sounds, seems like a great natural next step.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: Um, but because it was only 30 minutes away, I had people from my old community taking like pictures of me and sending it around and kind of using it as like, um, outing me to, uh, family and to old community.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: And it just became really, it became, it was very hurtful, um, just because it was such a sensitive, vulnerable journey that I was going on myself.
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: And so I just, like, I posted on Facebook and I like, so I came out publicly, it was dramatic.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: And, um, but I spoke my truth and I, and I declared that I was loved and accepted by God because it was about a year after I'd started this journey, I got a lot of backlash.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: Like, because I went to a conservative Christian university in the South and a lot of my university and com, like my world was church, you know, like, I, uh, had a lot of friends and community that are very much in that space.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: And so when I came out, I got a lot of pushback and it was overwhelming and I didn't know what to do with all of my feelings.
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: And so I turned to, I turned to pen and paper and I turned to my journal and I just started writing.
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: And this just like genuine cry for justice and to be seen and the, all the, the agony that I felt well enough from people that I loved.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: Like these were people that I journeyed with.
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: I was a pastor at this church for six years.
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: I'd grown up at this church in Brampton, and they were telling me like, you know, like, you're going to hell, like you're demonn possess.
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: And I was like, whoa.
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: Like, you know me.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: And I just felt so hurt.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: But I channeled all of that into the art and I held it in this container of scripture and truth and affirmation, and my first spoken word piece was birthed and I shared that online.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: And then next thing you know, like people are resonating with it and feeling empowered and yeah.
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: And one thing led to another and then I got a book deal during Covid, and I'm so thankful just for all of the ways that Yeah.
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: Community has affirmed and supported and come alongside, um, my art and this journey of expression.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: So it hasn't always been a thing, but I'm so, so, so thankful that I was able just to discover the healing qualities in writing and sharing my art.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Well, you are a gift, I will tell you that.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: And oh, um, I also want, uh, to give you a little bit of time to talk about, to talk about your book a little bit and tell the folk out there, tell the people about homecoming.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: And I love the name and y'all should go look at the, the book Art.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is beautiful.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: So yeah, tell us a little bit about the book and where people can get it and we'll of course put a link in our show notes, uh, to the website and all those things.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: But yeah, tell us a little bit about the book.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: I would love to, yeah, that is my baby.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: My, it was, I've poured a lot of hope and, uh, realness and reflection into that.
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: It was such a joy.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: It was a journey to write.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: Honestly.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: There's, I started out with like, uh, who am I?
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: I like, I can't write a book.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: These words are gonna be permanently in ink.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: But got to a place over the year and a half that I was given to write it to where I was just savoring these, these moments of solitude and reflection that writing invites you into and just leaning into, um, the joy of writing.
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: And so the book is Homecoming and it's my journey of just unlearning that shame and all of those expectations and labels and boxes that I feel like I was handed through, you know, society and my, uh, my Christian tradition and growing up in like a rural white Ontario as a, you know, a woman of color.
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: And so like all of these things were just, I was able to have space and time to like process them, to sit with them, to feel into them, and then to hand them over to this beautiful healing container of art and just let all the things that emerged from it so it is broken into thematic chapters.
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: And so what I've done is like all of these highlights that have been really real for me, like talking about my queerness and writing poems to my body and social justice and race and seasons.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: And so I have all of these different like, chapter themes and I open up each chapter with, uh, reflection.
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: So I call it my poetic memoir because each chapter starts with just some storytelling and some context about where the poems were birthed from.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: And then it goes into the rest of the chapter.
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: It are poems that fall under that theme.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: So if it's like the chapter on my, uh, identity, which is called Rainbows in the Dark, and I'll, I'll talk a little bit of my journey and then I write all of my poems that have to do with queerness and all the affirmations I have over my identity around, um, that are all in there.
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: So it was so fun to write and it's been so amazing to release it into the world.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: I've had so many, uh, folks just feel really empowered and seen through the poetry and the storytelling and the reflection.
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: So please support, uh, I know that I, I feel like I was trying to channel an energy of hope and resurrection and life.
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: Uh, and so you'll see an arc throughout the story throughout the book.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: But yeah, it was, it was a joy to create.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Amazing.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Well, folks, again, we will have a link to the book in the show notes.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: We encourage you to check it out, get a copy.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get a copy.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: And.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: And Heather, again, thank you so much for being with us and sharing, sharing your joy, sharing your gifts with us.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: It's been a real blessing.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you.
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: Same to both of you.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: I just, I, I blessed the work that you're doing and I'm so thankful that you're creating this really important space for conversation and centering voices and experiences that might not always, uh, have been put front and center traditionally.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: So I honor that and thank you so much for how you've held space today.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Fate, a Presby podcast.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Thanks to Heather for being with us and for affirming us and talking about poetry and fate.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: We really were impacted by that talk.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: So thank you Heather, again for being with us.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: And of course, we always want you to subscribe and to leave us a review wherever you get your podcast, go to a matter of fate podcast.com.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: There you will find our Korean and Spanners sibling podcast.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: If you have a question for us, send the Fate podcast at p u s a.org.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: We really want your questions, so send those in.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: And as always, we will talk to you again next week.