Latest / Books4Guys / Already Smarter: Jeffrey Bergin on Lifelong Learning, Growth Mindset, and Unlocking Your Potential

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Already Smarter: Jeffrey Bergin on Lifelong Learning, Growth Mindset, and Unlocking Your Potential · Books4Guys

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Before we jump into today's episode, I want to thank our executive development partner, Standard Pursuit.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Founded by Hunter Didrickson, Standard Pursuit is a coaching community built for founders, entrepreneurs, and high performers who are ready to step into the next version of themselves.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Through one-on-one coaching and the Standard Training Club, Hunter helps people strengthen both their physical and mental operating systems so they can think more clearly, lead more effectively, and perform at a higher level.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I appreciate most about what Hunter is building is that he understands success isn't just about business.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's about health, mindset, discipline, leadership, and becoming the type of person capable of achieving the goals you set for yourself.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking to sharpen your performance, improve your habits, and operate at a higher level, both personally and professionally, I encourage you to check out standardpursuit at standardpursuit.com.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get to today's episode.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: The summer so far.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's awesome, man.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've uh I've only been to Seattle once.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I came for a Seahawks game uh about 10 years ago when it was like Russell Wilson and the Legion of Carroll.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I don't know why.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: My dad grew up a Seahawks fan, so we uh we're not from that area at all.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was so cool to go up there and experience it and just kind of see the Pacific Northwest.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And man, it was so beautiful.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you gotta come back.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: September is the time to come.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I need to I tell my wife I want to take her to a Seahawk game just because the crowd is unbeatable and just Yeah, there's a lot of enthusiasm and uh and very fun after parties.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's great.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: But no, Jeff, man, so excited to have you on the podcast.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And man, this is a this lines up well.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Your book lines up with exactly what Books for Guys is all about, and uh just continuous learning, that that curiosity train.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I love, I want to make sure I I announce your book titles called Already Smarter Simple Strategies for Effective Learning.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh man, you've been a uh a lifelong learner.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've looked at your background, a teacher, professor, um, and done many different things.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, Jeff, if you could just share a little bit about your background and just kind of the progression of of your career and really what motivated you to write your book.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I'll just say, like growing up, I didn't feel like a strong learner.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't someone who particularly enjoyed school.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I had a few classes here and there that um I enjoyed are really great teachers, but you know, by and large, I wouldn't have considered myself to be someone who's a good student or who was particularly studious.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then I, you know, I wasn't even going to go to college, and then I decided kind of last minute, well, I'll take a few community college classes and you know, had a few really great instructors and and began to get into psychology and uh into education.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the the deeper that I that I got into that space, the more that I realized that I actually was a better learner than I thought I was, and I kind of kept going and began working in education when I graduated and uh did a lot of work in particular with you know underrepresented, non-traditional learners, folks who would not consider themselves uh great readers, great learners, great students, all of that stuff.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and the deeper I got into the work, the more I realized uh was that the work, the books that are out there that actually are focused on learning are often written for those people who are actually really great learners.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's the people who you know are gonna dive deep into an academic or scientific book and uh and really enjoy it.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're not necessarily written for people who matched kind of my back background, who, you know, would have considered themselves uh themselves a struggling learner or a reluctant learner.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the book that I wanted to uh to be able to put into place.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted it to be something that was heavily evidence-based, but that could be read by someone who didn't necessarily didn't necessarily love reading books or didn't want to read a book about learning, which comes off as very dry to many people, and that could be flipped through quickly, that would be um that would that everyone would find something of value in, you know, whether it's around how sleep affects learning, how nutrition affects learning, how our mindset affects learning, that there'd be a little something for everyone, with the big message being that anyone is capable of learning and anyone can change and grow in whatever direction they look.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that, man.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm similar to you.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I was a good student, wasn't a great student.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I read books, but I didn't necessarily like them.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I kind of discovered it was mostly because it I was reading things I just really wasn't that interested in.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I've had several conversations about that particular piece of learning too, is when you figure out what you like and you get to explore what you like.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if there's a book about it, it makes it a lot easier to read that book and and learn and and do that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, is that do you think and you kind of I'm I'm curious to know too, like you said non-traditional learner.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: What what does that mean exactly?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, non-traditional learner is someone who, you know, may not fit what we consider to be the kind of traditional profile for someone who goes on to college.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, someone who, you know, immediately graduates high school, they're 18 years old, and they enroll in a traditional four-year college or university.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they seek a degree in the interest of, you know, both uh their their own uh personal goals and also a career field, and then they go on and and and graduate in four to five years uh and kind of go out into the world.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there's a lot of people who don't hit that profile.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, increasingly uh folks don't hit that profile.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: They may decide, oh, you know, college is not for me.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go a different route and I want to pursue an apprenticeship or pursue something that's uh you know more similar to a certificate or a certification, or it might be someone who decides that they want to take a break and explore the world and you know, explore what interests them.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe someone who doesn't see college or higher ed as a feasible opportunity for them or something that they can actually afford to do or have access to.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it may be people like me who came from, you know, families where I was a first generation college student, so I didn't see that modeled in uh in my parents or in my siblings.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't seem uh really particularly accessible to me.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's those those individuals who may not fit that typical profile that pops into our heads about uh college uh learners.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes sense.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I could definitely see where that path it well, I've got you too.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: This was some questions I was thinking about because I was thinking of like there's never a better time of having more information to learn.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and maybe that's a piece of it too.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I think there you can maybe be a little a little overwhelmed with how many different places and you don't know where to go to get things.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I know um, you know, and you talk about specifically like sleep and and in you know things like that, and everybody everybody's so different, every situation is so unique.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do you, you know, and I your book covers different things, but I guess if you're working with somebody, what are some of the steps you take to kind of uncover why they think they're not a good learner?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then like, how do you get them to the point where they believe, hey, I am a learner, like let me, I'm interested in these steps.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how do you work through that with somebody?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I uh when I'm working with someone, and this could be when I was teaching at the community college level, it could have been when I was tutoring uh with students who were at the high school level, it could be in a coaching conversation with someone in the workplace, it could be uh executive coaching.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's really two questions that I ultimately end up asking.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: The first one pertains to one's belief that they have the ability to learn.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do you have uh can you learn X?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Can you learn Y?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Can you learn Z?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really around what is their particular mindset around their ability to grow in that area.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and that's really based on the mindset research that Carol Dweck has put together around a growth mindset.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a growth mindset or do you feel like you may be limited in a particular area or limited when it comes to learning in general?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's question one uh around the content, around the discipline that they may be learning.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Question two is around their ability to actually complete it, to complete a learning experience or to achieve a goal, and that's based on self-efficacy.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and the nuance here is that there's really two things I'm checking in on.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: One is, do you believe you're capable of the learning that's needed?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And thing two is do you believe you're capable of completing the learning that's that is needed?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you may believe, yeah, I can definitely learn this, no problem, but I can't learn it right now because I'm too busy, because I don't have access to the the right course or courseware.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I can't get to uh a place where that learning might happen.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how I would go about affording that, et cetera, et cetera.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's really around do you believe you can do it?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And do you believe that you can actually stick with it and complete it?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and those two questions, you know, really lead to a ton of possibility because then when you know the answers, you know kind of where to dig in.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, do we really have to back up and focus on mindset, or do we have to look at problem solving and think about how we can actually enable the learning to happen for you and what that may look like?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And to your earlier point, there's a ton of opportunity for different materials.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So for some people it may be reading a book.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, it may be taking an asynchronous course or a workshop, other people may be, you know, looking at uh traditional college courses, other people may be looking at, you know, finding a mentor.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you once you unlock where the problem is, you can begin to solve like what's the right path for you individually.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It it and I'm sure it's such a joy for you, like working with someone, and then you see that light bulb click of like belief and and just self-respect, confidence, like as that starts to boil up and they, you know, I'm sure it's just like uh rolling a boulder down the hill.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: It probably just picks up steam and it's probably really fun to see that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know for me personally, like when I when I'm helping someone who's maybe struggling with a similar problem I had, seeing them overcome it, there's not a better feeling of like just wanting to celebrate that moment with them.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um but Jeff, like, what was it about your personal journey that you grasped onto as far as like you know, like the college atmosphere?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you went from, hey, I don't know if I'm gonna go to you going and then teaching for a long time.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like you just, once you got in it, you were like, you loved it and and you still do.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: What what was it that grafts that grabbed you and and I guess kept you in that space and and got that passion going for it?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's a good question.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't know that it's any that it's any one thing, um, so much as is at it as it is, um, what happens at any fork in the road?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean I think when I was when I began going to community college, it was more because, okay, I didn't know what else to do.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, well, I'm not doing anything.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes sense to be the first thing I do.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give it a shot, you know.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh from there, when it became time to kind of transfer to a four-year uh degree granting institution, it became, where do I want to go?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where do I want it for me?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was more around what environment is the best environment for me?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: What location is the most interesting and sort of closest to home, et cetera?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and then as I kept uh enrolling in in programs and enrolled into a master's degree and then into my PhD, I think part of it was, you know, what does this unlock for me?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it was what am I dissatisfied about that I can actually pivot away from?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I when and I think when you're undertaking uh a new learning experience of any kind, I do think that you've got a push and a pull motivator.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the push may be, I don't quite like, I don't quite like where I am right now.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the pull is, oh, this is an opportunity to change that and to add new skills.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it can be as simple as, you know, you want to learn uh resistance training, or you want to learn Pilates, or you want to learn a new skill or a new hobby.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's, hey, I I I'm I'm dissatisfied because I don't or or can't, you know, in some cases uh do this without some level of training or education.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the pull is uh this this looks cool.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: This experience looks cool.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can actually learn this, and that seems like it would be pretty satisfying to me.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times, you know, those big decisions, what seem like big decisions, start with a much smaller decision.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it could start with in in in the example of college, it can start with a campus tour and just feeling like, hey, this clicks for me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I really liked the people I met.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um or if you're going to a new gym and they give you, you know, a week of free trial, you're like, oh, actually this is convenient for me and I liked the trainer who I met with, et cetera.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it needs to be, I don't think it's always necessarily a huge decision.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: It can be a series of small decisions, you know.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there are certainly those cases where, you know, folks, and these are people who I work with when it comes to coaching, really want to change their entire lives.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they're saying, look, my life isn't working for me.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's time now for me to make a big change and to go either go back to something I always wanted to do that I never actually did, uh, or make a change that's going to be much more aligned with who I am as a person.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And those, those are bigger decisions and they require a little more uh discovery, a little bit more thought, and they can put you on uh a really cool new track that you hadn't expected to be on.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Seems like there's a lot of psychology to this too.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to like learn somebody, figure out exactly what they're wanting to do, and then you really kind of tailoring your approach, especially to an individual, um, on on trying to help them accomplish what they want to.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: We talked a little bit, Jeff, about how the amount of information out there to learn is is never there's never been more, but there's also never been more distraction.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you see just your personal opinion on that being a limiting factor of people reaching their potential and not just them not being intentional about what they want to learn because they pick up their phone and next thing you know, an hour went by and they scrolled and they got nothing from it?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, or they didn't spend time critically thinking or or digging into something that was purposeful, you know, for their life and what they're trying to do.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see do you see the distractions in today's world as a limiting factor more than more than previously, or just kind of what's your experience with the distract the distractions out there?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do think I I think that they do present a couple of problems for us um when it comes to learning and growth.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: One is, you know, to your first point, um it can make it more complicated to determine what exactly it is that you want to learn.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can get distracted uh kind of early on and be like, oh, I I really don't know because I'm really busy spending time on social media or spending time consuming a lot of content, and it's not helping me to, you know, to actually pick a path, even if that path is short and temporary.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not helping me to pick that path.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it also once we do, you know, pick a path and and we begin the process of learning something new, and again, it can be something that only takes you a few weeks.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: It can be something that takes you, you know, months or a year.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about uh like a college degree necessarily.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about the task of of learning anything.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then we can get quickly distracted that and pulled away from you know being focused on whatever that goal is.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that that's almost the bigger, the bigger concern or the bigger issue is you know, being sidelined a little bit by um our own inability to focus and to put our phones down or to just really sit and dig into something.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's the bad news.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: The good news is that we've never had more access to information than we have today.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you leverage some of those channels in the spirit of what it is you'd like to learn, I think we can amplify anything we want to do.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the example I'd use is if you are wanting to learn um scuba diving, for example, now you can follow a number of diving experts on social media and you can really like laser focus on what they're doing.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so that can really reinforce your interest, your motivation, your learning, rather than having it be like, well, I'm gonna do dive classes that meet once a week, or I'm gonna do a diving expedition.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can be learning about diving every single day from a variety of different experts and right from your own home.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a real power in harnessing that information and being able to pull in, you know, the algorithms and uh and AI and all those things to your favor, but it's about having that intentionality and even just the ability to want that focus for a while and to know when to put the phone down and be focused on, you know, actually doing things and experiencing things.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was thinking of some things I I mean, YouTube's a great channel.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I I like to golf.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've been picking that up.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been watching like golf instructors talk about how to hit my driver further, and then I can I apply it and I'm like, oh, this is great.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm learning faster than trying to schedule a coach and and go do all that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm thinking, I learned how to change a certain light bulb last week.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I learned how to clean out the dryer vent a few weeks ago, and and now I'm like super proud.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, I added these to my my skill set.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if someone needs help, I know how to do it now.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was simply just being intentional about needing to go learn it myself instead of having someone else do it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it's such a good feeling.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: It goes back to like that confidence piece and and just being able to, I don't know, just have that self-belief.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: If I can do this, let me let let me figure it out, let me learn it.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it seems like that is sometimes the the barrier of getting somebody over that hump of the belief they can learn it and do it.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think that's what's so great about your work and your book is just trying to encourage more people to gain that confidence and try.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you give them, you know, tips.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how to maximize your ability to learn, here's how to learn.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are some points in your book, Jeff, that you know, like like we're meeting for the first time.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm letting you know, like, hey, I I I want to learn, I don't know what to do.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: What are just some of those foundational points that you start with on just how to get somebody get the ball rolling, sort of say?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think that, you know, foundationally, there's there's two or three things that everyone, I'd recommend everyone do.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: One is, you know, set some time aside for discovery.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you're when you're contemplating anything new or feeling like you may have a gap or feeling like you may have a fear, which is often a sign that there's something you have the opportunity to learn, or you know, spend some targeted time doing discovery work and just getting a little bit more information in that space, you know, and and as we said, never easier than now to do that.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then at the deeper you get into that discovery, if you begin to look at, okay, this is actually something I want to invest some time and energy in, then look at ways to do that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of low-cost, easily accessible ways to do informal learning and you know, an increasing abundance of ways to do informal or more formal learning as well.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, number one is just, you know, be curious and go through a discovery process.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you've landed on something and you're feeling like, okay, this is the thing I'm going to be committed to, you know, whether it's um a single day or whether it's, you know, for a few weeks or a few months, I think the the thing that I would recommend from any for anyone is start with sleep because you know, no matter what it is that we're setting out to learn, sleep is our friend.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's what prepares us to go into that situation with energy and being rested, and it also helps us to synthesize uh all of the material that we learned that that day and is a real tool, uh, which I write about in the book to our favor in the learning process.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that we don't talk about a lot about when it comes to actual learning.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: There is an increasing amount of press around the relationship between things like sleep and cognition and sleep and uh dementia and neurodegenerative diseases and so on, but people haven't always connected it directly to learning the way that we can now.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So even just getting a good night's sleep during that learning period is one of the most high value things that you can do to improve the experience.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that takes no additional investment outside of being.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Bed.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third thing is establishing the right practice schedule.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's this idea that, oh, I'm just going to learn something without actually being intentional about how I organize my time, how I invest in my time and what that looks like really underserves us.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and the analogy I would use is, you know, when you begin taking up a sport or going to the gym, you know, you will see more progress if you know, okay, this is a thing I'm going to do every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you know, from three to five or whatever it is.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so having that practice schedule is extremely helpful.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I write a lot about different types of practice that you can harness in that schedule.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very cool.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad I love sleep.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love sleep and I love a good nap.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I'm doing that one properly.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Jeff, just a few more questions for you and a couple that are more just kind of like your personal opinion and thoughts.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, as someone who has taught at that, you know, collegiate level, I'm curious to know just your opinion overall and like the state of the state of college in that particular like path of learning.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because it just seems like I've been in the tech space for a long time and with AI and things moving so fast.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Are do you see a like disconnect in what universities are teaching students and what is really going on in the real world?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or are universities doing a good job of like trying to move quickly and being able to offer programs and curriculum that can match up with the speed?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was thinking of just like me personally, you know, I I my old college now has a sales degree, but they didn't have that when I was going there.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I always knew I wanted to be in front of people, but I had to like go through the business, you know, marketing route, which wasn't really sales, but and but now they have it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really cool.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: But just, you know, in technology terms, do you think universities are doing a good job keeping up with that and offering what's needed?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or is there still like some work to be done there to try and add the same value that they have for as long as they have?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I I agree that it's a it's the right question to ask, especially now when we see technology evolving so quickly, when we see the influence of AI shifting um the you know, the job landscape and the labor market.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when we see employers looking for emerging skills that literally are uh emerging in real time, you know, they're skills that are very difficult to plan for and to kind of codify into a degree program.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and the last thing that you know we want anyone to do who is, you know, keen to gain employment is to invest years of their lives and dollars into a degree that's not going to yield uh a job for them if that's what the if that's what is at the end of their journey.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think the good news is that universities are recognizing that this is and have long recognized now that this is a growing challenge and something that they need to solve for.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is through kind of rapid program uh evolution evolution in terms of, okay, what is the coursework that's being provided?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is it um coursework that is relevant and recent?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then also is it's through new programs and new types of programs, including shorter form programming.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just about offering new bachelor's degrees, it's about offering certificates and things that stack and that you can rearrange, that have real-world learning experiences tied into them, that you can enter and exit relatively quickly with a new skill, and that have transferability into other programs.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that if you want to patch something together and take a certificate here and a few classes there, uh and then come back around to get a bachelor's degree at some point in time, that you can do that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the sorts of learning experiences we really need in this world that involves a lot of rapid upskilling and job uh transitions, you know, the ability to quickly come and go and to be lifelong learners and to make career changes in real time.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that may mean for some people, you know, going into more vocational programming or going into fields like healthcare, where we do see a lot of career demand, and knowing that that that investment is likely to yield uh a promising result, and actually being able to understand the pathway that happens or the off-ramp that happens from university to employment and seeing, okay, is that something that the university is supporting?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, how?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just so fascinating.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in the technology recruiting space for a while.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm, you know, 10 years ago, if you had a computer science degree, you're guaranteed a job and probably a lifelong of many potential earnings.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And things shifted so fast when AI came around and it was like, oh wow, like, should I go spend 80 to 100 K to do this if AI can just code it without, you know, without me.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I've seen the shift too of of you know companies that used to require a four-year degree, and now it's like, no, we just need them to know what we need them to know, you know, whatever that looks like.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh in just my short career, you know, 10 years, I've seen all of that change.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, wow, I can only imagine what the next 10 years is gonna look like.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just curious to know, like, with universities being so influential and having so many people come through them, like, how are they looking at this?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure it's a it's a never-ending conversation on how they can be better and offer the most value for their students as well.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just a fascinating thing to watch and see in real time, like you said.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Jeff, just two more questions for you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: As far as personal learning goes, what is something that you have not accomplished or learned that you want to learn, you know, at some point in the near term or or, you know, some point in the future?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was, I mean, the most recent thing that I um that I dug into was Pilates, which I started about two years ago, and uh had never had never experimented with it whatsoever, but had heard about the benefits, especially when it came to like some uh kind of chronic muscle pain and nerve pain I was having.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, okay, this is something really worth a try.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when you walk by a Pilates studio, uh, at least the ones I was seeing, you see a lot of really young people.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I was feeling intimidated uh by it.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so that's something that I really benefited from, and it really reduced um some pain that I was having.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the next thing, I the the the next couple of things that are on my list um include things like you know, playing an instrument.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I'd love to go back and pick up some swimming lessons.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I took um some lessons as a kid, and then I took some when I was in you know in uh junior college.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's been a long time, and so uh those have those have pretty much left me, and I'd love to go back and give that another try uh now as an adult.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll see.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's cool you say that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've my wife's trying to get me to go to yoga more.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've got like that sciatic nerve pain going on too, and I'm doing all the stretches now.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, you need to come to yoga with me.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: You need to come to yoga, do some more stretching.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it's funny you say musical instrument too.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say number one on my list is at some point learning the piano.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: I used to think it was just kind of lame, I guess.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I but then I had a friend in junior high who could just play so well, and it became like the cool thing that he could play the piano, and I was like, man, I would love to play the piano.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of always been in my the back of my mind, like at some point I'm gonna create some time and be intentional and like just go take piano lessons.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would be a really cool instrument for me to learn personally.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: But um, Jeff, last question for you.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I ask everybody this question that comes on the podcast just from a book standpoint.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book that you love to recommend to other people?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the one that um has meant a lot to me uh personally and professionally is called Make It Stick.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's by uh someone who has has been um an inspiration and mentor to me, who's one of the co-authors, Mark uh McDaniels, and he's uh a professor and uh a psychologist, and it's I I would say it's one of the best books about learning that uh that I've ever read.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so that's one that I have been inspired by and um and really enjoyed.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh the Growth Mindset book that I mentioned earlier uh by Carol Dweck is one that I think you know everyone would benefit from reading.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it really is, you know, it it's really having that mindset enables us to learn any number of things, not just one thing.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when when you were describing like picking up something like yoga or piano, you know, the beauty is, yeah, you may learn those two things, which is awesome, but it also just gives you the confidence to know, hey, I can learn a whole bunch of new stuff.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And those things kind of ripple and cascade over into the rest of our lives as well.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so, you know, learning amplifies learning.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say, you know, those books are great books if you want those lessons.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love it that you just said that too, because that's another thing I've been thinking about a lot lately.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: My wife and I have been talking about this, like accomplishing something difficult.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's not like a better satisfaction to that and and nothing more confident, confidence building than doing that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: So taking the time to learn something that's hard and then doing it.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Pilates, tough to do, but once you like do it for two months, you probably time goes by so fast too.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: You do it for six months, you'll look back and be like, wow, look at look what I can do now that I couldn't do before.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it seems like also that in this world of like automation, we want everything to be so easy.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't like to get uncomfortable.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's another point to it is like if you can get your mind trained to get a little bit uncomfortable and say, like, hey, this is gonna be it's gonna take a little bit of work, but you're gonna feel so good when you learn this or you can do this one thing better.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh again, you know, we hear that a lot, but I think it's it's getting a little more difficult for people to accept, like, hey, this is gonna be a little bit of a struggle, but the once you realize the end game and you feel it and see it, there's just not a better feeling about it.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I would love to live in a world where we did away with kind of New Year's resolutions and instead replace them with what is it I want to learn this year?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then every year we'd be learning something new.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I like that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I might implement that for this next go round.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to learn this year?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have people ask me all the time, like, what's my new year's resolutions?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm gonna change it up.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you want?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I want to learn this year.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to learn this year?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I like that, Jeff.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let me know what you learn.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that'd be cool.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end you look back.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: What did what did I learn this year?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's so much better than what did I do or what did I think I was gonna do?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: What did I learn this year?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: What can I build on for next year?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's awesome.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Jeff, man, this has been such a great conversation.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I love having these, these just just intellectual talks, like what have inspiration.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I need to learn more.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can learn more, I can do that.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope this motivates, you know, people who watch and listen to this to do the same.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, go go learn something new, go pick up something new, learn a new hobby, challenge yourself a little bit.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the work you're doing, your book, what you're promoting, and what and what you're working on with helping people, um, man, it's just it's super powerful.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's motivational, it's important.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, man, just really gr glad you did this.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're proud to spotlight your book on the Books for Guys website and proud to share your story.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And man, just keep doing what you're doing because you're you're definitely having an impact.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I always say learning is just another word for growth or for change.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh happy learning to you and uh all of your listeners.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hope everyone grows in the directions that they'd like to.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate that, Jeff.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate being included, Chris.