Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Natalia Spierings talks sunscreen and anti aging

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Dr Natalia Spierings talks sunscreen and anti aging · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited because our one of our first guests has joined us again.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Natalia Spearings.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: We are so happy to have you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would love to talk about sunscreen with you today because that is a big topic that everybody's talking about.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And just, you know, get your information, get your advice about it.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: But what you're not in a sunny place right now.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Are you in very cold New York state?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I am.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in New York.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in New York State, yes.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to go upstate a lot, so it's really cold, you know?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really cold.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's really cold here today.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in sunny England, which is not so sunny.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, this is a great time to be talking about sunscreen.
• 1:21
  unknown: Right.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's the 30th of November.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about sunscreen.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just kidding.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, good, good, good.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about sunscreen.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think it's, you know, it's a it's an all-year-round topic, regardless of where you live, because um people still wear sunscreen in the winter.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't, but I'm sure people do.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, let's talk about sunscreen.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you know, for the people that do wear it in the winter or really anytime, uh, what do you okay?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you know about sunscreen from a dermatology standpoint?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you discussed previously, like you told me a little bit about it before when we talked about mineral and chemical and all the, you know what I mean, all the different stuff.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what when you think about sunscreen as a consulting dermatologist, like what do you think?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as broad of a question as that is when I think about sunscreen, what do I think?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think that um we are all too obsessed with sunscreen.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think um that that's yeah, that would be my my firm thought.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: So one of my most annoyed qu annoying questions, and this is always comes at the end of a clinic consult consultation, it just as about the patient's about to leave the room, and they're like, Oh, by the way, which sunscreen do you recommend?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, guaranteed, every single appointment I have with every single patient will end with that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I have to take a big sigh, like, oh okay.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so and because I I there is no sunscreen I recommend.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, and it this is a whole conversation.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, I have to be like, okay, right.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I'm not saying that you should go in the sun, that's not what I'm saying.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying that sunscreen is not enough.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, sunscreen shouldn't be the first thing you think about when you think about protecting your skin from the sun.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's the last thing you think.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a bonus.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like sunscreen is um an additional protection.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: It is not an alternative to clothing, it is not an alternative to staying in the shade, it's an extra thing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're living your normal life in a normal, sorry, not normal country, in a non perhaps super sunny country, and you're going outside and you're getting in the car and you're driving for 10 minutes, or you're uh, I don't know, popping outside to get your mail or something, you don't need to have sunscreen on for those life events.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're going to be out in intense sunscreen, for example, you're going to the beach for the day, you're going for a long hike or something, then I would say that sunscreen, yes, you should probably wear it anyway, but your first line of defense should be your clothing and covering up and like your wide-brimmed hat and your big sunglasses.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what is your opinion about all these products that are like now talking about blue light from phones and saying now we need to wear sunscreen because the blue light is affecting our skin?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, I shouldn't be laughing, but it's that's that's that's the marketing behind it, right?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they keep saying you use your phone a lot, you're in front of your computer a lot, so you need to protect your skin from blue light.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what what what are your thoughts on that?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so blue the idea of a blue light is that because that the wavelength of blue light is very close to the wave, the higher wavelength of UVA light, which is the deeper penetrating um wavelength that we don't see, so it's the not visible UV radiation.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that is 380 is kind of the max of of um of UVA, and then above 380, you get into your blue light and then your green, and then your your kind of your visible light spectrum.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea there is that this blue light has a wavelength that's similar to UVA, so why is it cut off just like 380?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: So surely blue light is causing dermal damage because UVA penetrates deeper into the skin, it penetrates into the dermis, and that's what causes you know, supposedly, well, it causes the oxidative damage that then affects your collagen and then makes you age.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: So blue light is there for aging.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, I we do have some studies looking at this, and from memory, and I can't quote the study, but um, that that's all just nonsense.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: There is no evidence to suggest that your light from your phone increases your risk of skin cancer or aging.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, we haven't been using these screens for that long.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, remember back in the day when the screens were black with green letters?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm old enough to remember when computers.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, me too.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, I do.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so when computers didn't have all these colors, when computers were were black with green, remember those?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And there was boxes.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Why have you introduced colors?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: So the day that I saw a color screen, I was like, oh my god.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: So to be fair, um, we haven't had them around.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously the phone thing is a fairly new concept, too.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So well, you remember when everybody was like, phone, like using your phone causes like ear cancer.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: What was it?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like with the white with the antenna?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I remember that time.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and everyone's like, no, that's not true.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that completely like, you know, people thought that mobile phones caused brain tumors.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was that's what it was.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: But that's that's not true.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we think it's not true.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So the same with this.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think, you know, maybe in 50 years they'll be like, oh my gosh, the computer screens gave everyone skin cancer.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I I just don't, I don't think the I think from the studies in the the kind of physics literature I've read about this, um, where I've basically been able to say, no, that's not true.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's not strong enough.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you're not really subjecting your skin to it properly through the light, um, you know, so it's not necessary to have like a blue light filter.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, or that sunscreens will still protect you from that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, though mainly it'll be um the inorganic, so the mineral sunscreens, which reflect the light as opposed to the chemical sunscreens, because the chemical sunscreens from they absorb the high energy UV radiation um and convert it to anything above kind of 380 nanometers, if that makes any sense.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and that's what we consider long wave radiation above 380 to be harmless.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: So physical.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I also and that's so interesting because that's really I mean, that's technically what's going on.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: But my concern mostly, and the reason I wanted you to speak on on uh sunscreen is because I feel like you know, there's this conversation about anti-aging is what is really propagating this.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, of course, there's cancer, right?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And every not but not every, you know, Joe Schmo on the street is worried about skin cancer, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like all of most of them are buying into it.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Most people are buying into sunscreen because they don't want to age and they don't want to look like they have wrinkles, they don't want to have all these things.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, can we talk about the word anti-aging?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's a complete hunk of BS, you know?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that word.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: But no, but you have to remember too that no one has ever proven that sunscreen inhibits skin aging in humans.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that's never been shown.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, to show that would be difficult.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, oh, because you'd need to do a fairly long-term, we're talking very long-term study, and it may be slightly unethical in a way.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but yeah, it's never been shown.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sunscreen use has never been shown to prevent, I don't want to say anti-aging, but prevent the signs of photo aging.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: That that would be the more correct.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, the you know, what did you want to talk about?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Anti-aging is I I don't like that word because yeah, I know it's just a stupid word anti-aging.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a stupid word.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's I the reason I bring it up to you is because I had a conversation um a little bit ago.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to one of the um the editors that I invited on, and she mentioned how she also hates the word anti-aging.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like the it need you guys, we just need to move away from that word, you know what I mean?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like the when I think about aging, I think the first product is sunscreen that comes because I think that's what people utilize the most to go with it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of these companies are are profiting off of that word and then telling people, hey, this is gonna prevent you from aging, and sunscreen is important for that, rather than saying you can have you might have an increased risk for skin cancer be based on genetics or whatever, you know what I mean?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's not that's not even the marketing being used.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's my main problem.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is that if they were if they were marketing it in a way that was like more cancer driven, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then pathology driven, it would be a little bit more understanding.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: But when you're just saying something like this is gonna stop you aging, yeah, it's probably and that's a a totally unsubstantiated claim.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Though the idea that it can uh prevent skin cancer has a more sound evidence base, though perhaps not as good as we want it to be.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think the the the more the the more kind of scientific thing to say is that sun sun expos UV radiation is known as a fact to cause non-melanoma skin cancer on the head and neck.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So then then so the flip of that is okay, so if you use sunscreen, you are you there for preventing skin cancer?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, perhaps.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe, yeah, hopefully, um, it's not gonna, it shouldn't cause skin cancer on the other side.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you know what I mean?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's probably fine to use and safe to do so, though I can't guarantee that if you wear sunscreen every day for your whole life, you will never have a skin cancer.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah, that's the conversation.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what more likely is is is that if you were to not go in with your head and neck or face in the sun ever and never get a suntan and never get a sunburn, so keep your face totally protected, then you are I can't guarantee you won't have a skin cancer, but your likelihood of having a skin cancer is much, much, much, much, much reduced.
• 10:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes non-melanoma skin cancer.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: So so can you elaborate on that?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like melanoma skin cancer versus non-melancer.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so well, so there's so there's two families of skin cancer, if you will.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we call them, we basically differentiate them that way because melanoma is well, and for me, the reason why they're differentiated is because melanoma is kind of life-threatening and monomelancing skin cancer generally is not.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's one way to think about it.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: So uh skin cancers are named based on the cells they derive from.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So just like cancer, the pancreas comes from pancreatic cells.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, melanoma derives from melanocytes.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the pigment containing cells of the skin or the pigment-making cells of the skin, and those live right at your basement membrane.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: So melanoma are is a cancer where you have a melanocyte that grows in an uncontrolled way, and um, that type of cell can then uh kind of invade the lymphatics and can spread to the rest of your body and can cause you, you know, can can kill people.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's melanoma.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Basal cell carcinoma and squamous cell carcinoma come from basal cells and squamous cells, which are different cells in the skin as well, mainly well, in the epidermis.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: And those are we call them non-melanoma because they're not from melanocytes, and those generally don't spread or kill you.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they are they're kind of um because the cells they derive from are kind of higher up, slightly higher up in the epidermis, they kind of sit on the skin, and um they're it look they look different and they tend to occur on the head and neck, and we are virtually completely sure that they come from sun exposure.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: The non-melanoma group, though they don't kill you, so basal cell carcinomas are the most common cancer of all time, like of all of all cancers, and um they don't kill you, but they are they can be disfiguring because they generally happen on the face, and then they they're like you know, you if you heard rodent ulcers, do you guys call them that?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: So they're the rodent, and they call they're called rodent ulcers just horrible, because they're like skin colored and they can ulcerate and be these horrible looking nodules, but because they're skin colored and kind of um they kind of initially when they start, people don't notice them.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're let in.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And like a mole, tends they're not they're not always brown, but they definitely generally are brown, they look funny, you know, on their body, on their body and stuff like that.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: On the face, patients don't notice them, and you think, oh gosh, this little thing on my face doesn't really heal, or this little bubble on my nose doesn't seem to go away, and then people leave them and then they just grow very slowly over time, and then by the time they see someone about it, because it's like bleeding all the time, it's quite large.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then when you remove them, it you know, you have to then fix the hole, and then you leave a scar.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a very long explanation for that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: But those are the main um differences, and people don't really think about non-melanoma skin cancer, especially younger people, because it it generally it you don't hear people dying.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not all this, it's all very like dramatic in that sense, but it is dramatic in the sense that it can be like totally disfiguring.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh they tend to occur in younger people.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's the thing is that you know, I understand that there's always going to be like um, you know, you know how every case there's one that's the extreme and then one that's average, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like one thing I want, I think people need to understand is not all skin cancer is going to be like this detrimental, like you know, like just ruins your life, like you're gonna die, like what you just said, basically, you know, it's and and and even if it is, my biggest question is is slathering on any kind of product going to prevent that?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because from what you're saying, yeah, sun exposure, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, do we really understand exactly what is happening to cause this damage?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um I I don't know much about that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's where I'm I'm confused about where the whole sunscreen and the protection aspect comes in.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you I mean, we do know that like UVB light and UVA light cause um you know oxidation of melanin, which then results in tanning but can also cause oxidative damage.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, it's it's what is believed to be happening is that um, you know, the UV light activates P the P53 gene, I think that's a tumor uh no, that's a not a tumor spread, is an apoptosis.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Apoptosis, yeah, yeah.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So um the UV light activates P53 within a cell, and then the cell should be destroyed if the damage is considered to be bad enough.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so, or DNA repair should be initiated.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: But if the um kind of apoptosis doesn't work, or um you know uh it deactivates the P53 gene and then the damaged cell is allowed to divide or whatever, this kind of genetic thing, something goes awry, um and it doesn't prevent the abnormal cell from repro it doesn't prevent the it allows the abnormal cell to reproduce by not preventing it from reproducing.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, that's confusing if you get what I mean.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Then you you develop a skin cancer over time.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: So from a molecular or cellular point of view, that's what kind of very headline idea is that UV radiation, um you know, the cells that have been damaged by UV radiation should have um the P53 gene activated, but if that doesn't happen, then apoptosis doesn't occur, and then you have a damaged cell that replicates, which I think is a concept behind most cancers.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um it's just on unregulated uh you know cell growth and cell division, basically.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it is.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's the UV light that activates the apoptosis, but then it doesn't as in because by damaging the cell, UV light, UV light damages the cell, activates apoptosis, but sometimes that doesn't activate as it should.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Then because the cell doesn't die, it just gets damaged, and then it starts to replicate as a damaged cell, and then you have these dodgy cells being replicated.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like a multiple damaged cells.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what is that whole?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna ask you for myself because I remember in medical school they taught us that one example of the um what is it, the dimer formation um because of UV light?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I noticed is that really a big cause for skin cancer?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: God, this is like taking me back to like cellular, molecular kind of immunology kind of stuff.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like that was their that was their shining example in medical school.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, you know, this is what it is, you know, skin cancer.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do cool.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I I'm not sure, but from I mean, what I uh kind of understand very headline is uh the about this P53 apoptosis business.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, that's what it's UV light doing, UV light is doing that.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's part of um also skin aging, but the skin aging thing is probably more to do with kind of um the damage to the collagen and the oxidation to the collagen and in the dermis and so on.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now now one thing I want to ask, and this is a little bit of a tangent, but I really want to get your opinion now with the whole COVID thing um going on, obviously people are all staying inside, you know.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I hope.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's hope that people are staying inside.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, with that comes its own problems, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of like skin health, is there something that comes to your mind when it comes to you know excessive levels of just being indoors, or is that okay?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think the thing you're kind of getting at is vitamin D.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um so this keeps changing all these um rules or thoughts regarding um uh what we should be doing with about vitamin D.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I I just follow along with what the British Association of Dermatologists says, which is probably similar to what the American Academy of Dermatology says, um, which is you know the the guidance that supplementing all year round for anyone over the age of four um with a vitamin D supplement of 400 IU a day for healthy, normal, healthy people is optimal for vitamin D.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Though vitamin D is such a controversial topic because no one really knows what the optimum levels are, um, you know, no one really knows what the optimum sun exposure is for adequate vitamin D.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, no one even knows whether all this stuff about how vitamin D is so important is actually true.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: So what I tend to tell patients is don't worry about vitamin D in terms of sun exposure.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna be inside all the time, you know, if you're really worried, it's there's no harm in supplementing with a little supplement.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: But most of the food that you eat is also supplemented with vitamin D or Ford.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: In the United States, your bread, I think, is, and so are most of your Kellogg cereals.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and milk.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have this, like, yeah, the milk that's supplemented or like enriched with more vitamin D than normal or something like that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think they even do that to like almond milk here and things like that.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think they do that, but um, I don't super pay attention to that.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: But so, but in terms of like actual sun exposure, like during all this lockdown COVID stuff, at least in the UK, where we were basically told we could only go outside for like an hour a day at first, um, even on a cloudy day, if you go outside and expose your hands and your face at sunlight for 15 to 30 minutes a couple times a week, that's thought to be acceptable for vitamin D levels to be normal.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't have to be excessive.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: If there's even been a study to show um that uh even if you're wearing sunscreen, that's okay.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's still uh you know, fine for vitamin D to be um uh made in your in your body.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's that's what I was gonna ask you because I was like, it does the because I know that the there's like a in the mechanism it's the light activating vitamin D, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, does that get hindered at all with the sunscreen?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you just answered that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: So apparently it does because that's a very good question.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I mean, I don't think it I don't know how it would, but you know, that's interesting.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to see more.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: There I don't know if there's enough literature out there about that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: I want to Yeah, I mean there is, and I there I just there was recently recently me more like two months ago, but where I did uh that that paper came across my my little stork paper thing, and I was like, oh yeah, this is a good one.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I read about the whole thing about sunscreen um and uh vitamin D.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Someone did study that, and I can't I would have to look through and find you that reference.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I even think I put it on Instagram somewhere.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go back to your by the way.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Your Instagram is amazing, you guys out there, everyone listening.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Please, please, please go follow Dr.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Natalia Spearings.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's DR Natalia Spearings.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: She, you're I love your Instagram, Natalia.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I mean, this is the most candid amount of information you're gonna get, I think, in my opinion, on Instagram from a dermatologist.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So please go out and you know, please follow her.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I you know, one thing I want to say though, Natalia, is I know you get a lot of backlash and a lot of people like, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: They would they take what you say and they run with it, but it's like um you know, I will say that to anyone listening, you know, when you when you're giving advice, it's not like you know, it's not something that's like going at people, and I think that's important to address, right?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because the like dermatologists are getting a lot of heat right now, and instead of getting you, you know, we should be listening to dermatologists, not saying, well, why didn't you use this word instead of this one?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of stuff.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we I mean there are some, and I there are some dermatologists who are very commercial and they're trying to sell stuff and all the stuff.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there are people like that.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for the most part, you know, the we're all kind of scared of being on social media and saying anything because like we don't want it's taken to the GMC or to the the general medical, you know, we don't be reported for saying something incorrect or do you know what I mean?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of fear, yeah, and um it's not helpful uh if we get attacked for what we say, especially if we're correct.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um but so it is it's just not um it's just it's it's if I am saying something incorrect, then obviously yes, please tell me.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um but generally we're all so careful with what we say that you know, all doctors are on social media, I would imagine, you know.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean Yeah, you have to be.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to be careful because it is your person, your professional reputation.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then if someone slags off my professional reputation or my or my personal reputation on social media because they don't like one of my posts, you know, that affects me personally and professionally.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, you it's just not very nice, but yeah, I I you should expect it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I want I want to say this, and I want to say this very clearly to people out there because you are providing a free service, okay?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just keep that in mind.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: It is not something you get paid to do, it is something that you are your passion and your you're putting information out there that is um backed with real research, real papers, real clinical experience.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the last thing that we need to be focusing on is how to get Natalia's bearings on the one word she used versus another one.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that stuff drives me nuts.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think I saw your post the other day trying to clarify what you meant, and I just I was shaking my head because I'm like, why does she need to further clarify something that's rooted in science?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, I don't know.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really, really like the post where I'm like, you have to question everything.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then I that was so much backlash for that.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what are you?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just telling you to question question what you read, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I recorded something because I wanted to like back you up, like you know, because I was like, what is going on?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why are you mad?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because she's telling you what you're saying.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you yeah, no, but I mean, honestly, going back to that message is like, yes, question everything.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: That is the foundation of science.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you cannot question things, and if you cannot put things into this, you know, this gray area and then wonder, then what is it?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: But that is it's so it's so relevant with um, especially with like skincare and dermatology, because you get given, we all get thrown so many messages, like even about sunscreen.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we just get battered down the you know what I'm trying to say, like you must wear sunscreen every day, you must wear sunscreen.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't wear sunscreen, you're gonna, you know, get look old tomorrow.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it, you know, this is the only way to keep yourself looking healthy or whatever.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we have we and it's so much like um guilt when people don't wear sunscreen.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the patient guilt, uh you know, the patients are still like, oh gosh, I oh my melasma got a little bit darker yesterday because I forgot to put enough sunscreen on.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, it's not gonna be from one day, you know.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: So no, don't worry.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I and well, it's it's a cult mentality, I feel like at this point.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it comes from, I mean, I think it comes from the skincare industry who are obviously selling sunscreen and um, you know, and saying, you know, that you have to wear this every day.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, I have patients who have like they get a basal cell on their face, and then I because my main job is to cut out skin cancers from people's faces, and I do that most of the day.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's amazing to me when a patient's like, oh, you know, and they say, Why did I when in the middle of the surgery, they'll say, you know, why did why did I get this or how did I get this?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, Well, it's we think it's because of sun exposure over your lifetime.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Oh, I didn't wear sunscreen last year when I went on holiday to Spain.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, no, no, it wasn't your holiday last year.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was the sun exposure when you were 12.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: That continued until you're 30.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: The majority of the damage you've done to your skin was when you were in your teens.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, can we really even avoid damage then?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really the question, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's like not not, I mean, you can by actively avoiding the sun.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: And this is when I try to get people to understand, I'm like, well, look at your forearm.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like look at the the top of your forearm and the back of your forearm.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like your an anatomical position would be your anterior forearm.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that is your non-sun exposed or less sun-exposed skin.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you just look at your forearm, you can see the difference in the side.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing it right now.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're doing it right now.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look at your butt skin, um, unless you have like butt acne, but people which is a real thing, it's actually not acne, but an acne form.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's called like butt.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't think it's not like backnee.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: But knee, they call it butt acne.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Unless you have bad butt acne, which some people do, it's actually a form of fliculitis.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, your butt skin is your totally unsun exposed skin.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that you can just look at your arm and you can see the difference between the skin on the front and the back.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I mean, so even if like I never go in the sun, I still have photo damage on the front of my arm.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's still like a little bit freckly.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: The skin is a different texture, it just looks it's not as smooth and and and clear as the skin on the other side of my arm.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's just wear and tear from a living.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just wear and tear for a living.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I haven't put sunscreen on my arms uh for a very, very long time, but I generally don't go out in the sun.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I don't go sunbathing ever and I haven't I used sunbeds when I was a teenager, but I I didn't when I I found out that it were bad for you.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um can you ever really completely protect yourself?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, not if you if you live a normal life.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and that I you know, I wanted you to say that because I think um we live in this like bubble mentality now, you know what I mean, as a world, and it's like you want to protect yourself from everything, but it's like there's something you cannot stop aging, you know.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's no way to stop certain molecular and cellular processes from occurring in your body.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and and I think with skincare brands, that's something that really needs to start coming to the forefront, is that this is not a prevention, you know, technique, or this is not preventative, whatever.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even I don't even want to say medicine because it's not medicine, it's not a preventative strategy to stopping aging, unless you you know what I mean, there's gonna be a lot of uh genome work that needs to happen to even come to that at some point in our lives, you know, in science.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is this is not gonna stop it.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm I'm glad you clarified on that.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um you're like what I'm gonna say now, but that what I have, I've just done a post which hasn't come out yet, but it's gonna come in a couple days on Instagram about Botox as prevention.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: So this is totally just throwing its head, everything you just said.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because yeah, I get that question all the time.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is Botox preventive?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Should I start Botox now, saying a 21-year-old patient?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I've always been like, well, uh, you know, I don't really can't really answer that because I like to answer things with a strong evidence base.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um there there isn't a strong evidence base for this, but there is a twin study which is interesting.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: And there there were there were a set of twins, females, who were followed for 19 years.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of them lived in Germany, lives in Germany, and only got Botox three times in 19 years.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the other one lives in California and got Botox every three to four months for from the age of 19 years old.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: 19 That's like full paralysis, isn't it?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Of your facial muscles.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's expensive.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and like I I don't I've never injected Botox into a teenager, like ever.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when I saw this twin study, I was like, bloody hell, what anyway?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: So they they did a side-by-side comparison they obviously over the the the like the first over 15 years, so it's been published twice this this paper because it's they followed over time, this one doctor.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it is startling the difference.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because the twin, the untreated twin, so the German twin, and they they also accounted for um well uh for a change in in climate.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um because if you look at the um if you look at the lower face, so Botox is only injected into the period around the eyes, the forehead, and the frown lines, the globella.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: So the lower face ages naturally, right?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: So they have equal amounts of aging in the lower face.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the nasal label folds are equally as pronounced on both twins, lower face sagging is equally as pronounced, so not bad, they're in their late 30s.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: So the lower face is the same.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of photo damage, one twin does not have more photo than the other, photo damage than the other, and then also neither of them have ever had lasers or retinoids.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the only intervention has been Botox in the treated, which is astounding as well, considering if someone's going to a dermatologist every three to four months for that long that they haven't had any other treatments done.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they both have very good skin, neither of them had acne or any kind of skin pathology.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but so if you look at the lower half of the face, they have aged the same.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: But if you look at upper, yeah, static and dynamic lines, the the treated twin looks 10 years younger than the untreated.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's pretty phenomenal.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that I'll that before and after is gonna come up on my Instagram in a couple days uh from that screen.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I'm still blown away.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Wait a minute.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what it's what what do you think is doing that?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good question.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: How's it doing it?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's not allowing the static lines to form.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: So Botox doesn't allow have you ever had Botox?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: I know too young.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but so every time you move your forehead, um, you you know use the muscle and it creates so like um you know horizontal, yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: So if you don't use that frontalis muscle and you never move your forehead, then you never create the static lines or even a remnant of the static line.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: So is it therefore therefore preventative?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: It you can see it that way, yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're preventing the riddle.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Same with the period of the around the eye line, the crow's feet, the treated twin only started treating those in the last two years.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: But even then the the the change was dramatic.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like the treated twin just did not have the static crow's feet when the untreated twin had the lots of them.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's but that's based on the idea that you just said, right?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: About like basically muscle, it's a muscle paralysis, right?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: The Botox toxin, it's it's that's what's doing it's doing, right?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it relaxes the muscle, okay.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it stops the the neurons from firing, so the um so it blocks them.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: So they the muscle just doesn't move.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So um if you if you stop those those muscles from moving, you know, they didn't get massive amounts of atrophy, they just didn't they didn't get this the tree twin didn't get any lines.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: So but the the thing is it does have to go, you have to do it consistently for years to see the difference.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you'll never really notice that you're preventing the lines because you never unless you have a twin who doesn't do them.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because you never know where your lines are gonna form at first time.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you'll never know how old you should have looked.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's kind of one of these weird ones where it's like, well, you know, you could just do, you know, you just I don't know.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really I I don't know, I'm skeptical because I want to know what the long-term effect is.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, these meet these I mean we have been using Botox since 1980.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it was licensed by the FDA for the treatment of the frown lines, I think in the 90s.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it has been used in cajillions of people since then.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: But what about the frequency though, right?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like this girl is getting them every three months.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's average how long it lasts.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she seems to be fine, like health-wise, her face is moving.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Literally, they wrote in the papers, you know, no side effects, both twins are healthy and fine, no problems.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they haven't developed resistance.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: The the treaty twin hasn't become resistant to Botox.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's another issue because of antibodies.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: You think sometimes some people get resistant, which is really great.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing that they also wrote about, and what I'm also gonna write about, is that Botox seems to improve skin texture over time and can reduce the size of pores and reduce oiliness by a different mechanism.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, so are you shifting from Vaseline to Botox?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm confused.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I use both.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I mean I'm I'm a huge fan of Botox myself, like or or I should say an anti-wrinkle injection.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um because anti-wrinkle injection, because there's different because Botox is a brand.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I mean I I've I'm gonna start using a different um brand uh just to see if I like it, um, because there's a couple of brands of of of anti-wrinkle injection now.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I'm a huge fan.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's I think it it it if used well and used in the right patient correctly, it can give really nice improvement to the appearance of fine lines.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the only I think if we're gonna talk about anti-aging, um, though I don't like that word, I think um, you know, Botox, the only two things I think will ever really prevent the appearance of good oh wait, huh?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let me back that up.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the two things that make people look old are um fine lines and wrinkles and also coarse lines and um uneven pigmented surface like skin surface.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: So the appearance of skin texture and surface and pigmentation and lines.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can prevent or reduce either of those, so the best way to prevent them is not smoking, staying out of the sun, um, and apparently using Botox regularly.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is no, seriously, you've just like taught me something completely new because I I'm not gonna lie to you, I grew up with this mentality that Botox was, you know, it just it, I don't know, it never appealed to me maybe because of the the marketing that I was exposed to around it, you know what I mean?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: But this is this is very interesting, and I and I really want to look into this.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: So really, I mean, um before skincare lines pick this up and start making it as an at-home Botox thing, please don't do that.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: You'll never get everyone's talking to me about oh, there's gonna be topical Botox.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's not gonna happen because of the way that Botox works.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna be able to get it topically.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: You can't do that.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Everything can't be.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, because you can't be able to get the penetration, it needs to activate them and activate the muscle and work on the nerves.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not gonna get a cream that's gonna penetrate the epidermis, dermis, the subcineous tissue, and then the fascia, and then go to muscle.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's no transdermal delivery that's gonna do that, you know.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna happen.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, this whole concept of topical Botox is just nonsense.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe in 10 years I'll be eating my hat, but uh words, but but you know, it's not gonna happen.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, um what's so basically the two best things to kind of keep you besides you know, stay out of the sun, don't smoke, um, you know, use Botox and uh a retinoid, and and because that's evidence-based, and that's basically it.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's all you need to do.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, used correctly, and that's literally that's it.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Flash and bats down, you're good to go.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I think that's that I mean that's very interesting.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I have been experimenting with this whole minimalistic, you know, thing where I literally just wash my face and then I apply a very simple moisturizer.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, you know what I mean?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I'm not gonna lie to you, when you first told me about that, that's exactly what I did with my skin.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And most of most days that's what I do, and I'm I'm fine.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: With my skin, I survived and I'm I'm fine, and I like the way my skin looks.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have any issues with dullness and all that crap, you know.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really not what you're saying is the truth, you know, and I and I want to tell you because I I tried it on myself.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, so that's great.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Natalia.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: I always learn so much from you every time we talk, and this is I hope I hope other people can learn from this.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: But but yeah, um, you know, you guys out there, please check out Natalia's uh Dr.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Natalia Spearings Instagram, follow her, read her posts, please read them, they're very, very good.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh hopefully I can invite you back on if you have time.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you so much.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, this is Ecta again.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just wanted to pop in and say thank you so much to everybody who has come onto the show, um, for everybody out there listening.
• 39:14
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• 39:26
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• 39:28
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• 39:33
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• 39:36
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• 39:37
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• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of the proceeds will be going towards new startups by um black-owned brands or uh women in business, you know, just just groups that really are not getting a lot of um support right now from the economy.
• 40:08
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• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much and stay tuned for another awesome episode coming up on Friday.
• 40:24
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