Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / Almost Famous In Depth: Zac Clark

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Almost Famous In Depth: Zac Clark · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This is the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: with on our radio.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: We have a very special guest today, Somebody who has
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: only been on the podcast once, way back in the day,
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: like right after the season was completed. Somebody that I
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: look up to a lot, I respect in the work
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: that he does. Uh, Somebody that I enjoy following on Instagram.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Somebody I'm very excited to have on the Almost Famous Podcast. Ashley,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I know you are as well. This has been somebody
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: we've asked to bring on for weeks now mm hmm.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:29
  Speaker 4: The perfect person to do it in depth with because
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: I do truly feel like there's a lot of depth
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: to him and he has a lot of backstory. It
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: is Zach Clark. Hey, Zach, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:40
  Speaker 5: What's up, guys am? I super I was on before.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah all right, so I actually like have to we'd
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: have to really go back. But I do think that
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: you probably came mom Atasha and like an after you
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: did like what like right as you were announced in
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: like a speed press round.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a whole different life for you, buddy.
• 0:57
  Speaker 5: Okay, all right, I'll.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: He believes that I don't even trust ourselves here because
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: I'm like kind of torn on this, Irue. Okay, all right,
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: so Zach, we're really excited to have you here. When
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: we do in depths, we like kind of start with
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: people's childhood and up.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: So are you ready let's do it.
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of a lot of childhood stuff, you know.
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so tell us about like where you grew up,
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: what your family dynamic was like. Based on the show,
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: it seems like you have like the most warm and
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: wonderful family. We'll tell us about this.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: That's so crazy you asked that. I was just talking
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: to my Yeah, like it was like a white picket
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: fence upbringing. And if you saw the Clark family from
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: the outside, you'd be like, oh, they're the perfect like
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: American dream family. But when you really dig in, there's
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: like substance use and eating disorders, anxiety and all the shit, right,
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: so you just never know what's going on. I mean, look,
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: I grew up in uh in South Jersey. I one
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: of five kids. My parents are still happily married, so
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: they've been an amazing example for me for my entire existence.
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: And like, I have no notes on my upbringing.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: I mean I always I like when when people ask
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: me about my high school experience. I always kind of
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: say it was like that days and confused, you know,
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: like I don't know who we've seen the movie, but like,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: you know, played three sports and drank in the woods
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: on the weekends and chase girls and ran from cops
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: and had a lot of fun. I don't really like,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: there wasn't a lot of trauma. There was no reason
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: why I, you know, became a drug addict or whatever happened,
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: but I did, you know, And that's why I'm so
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: passionate about talking talking about it. However, many years later.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because you say that, and I
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: think you know, our stories are different but similar in
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways, Like I had an amazing upbringing
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: and yet found myself addicted as well. And there's been
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: moments obviously in that Zach, that I felt, I don't
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: know what the emotion around it is, guilty, sometimes confused,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: like how did that happened to me?
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Uh?
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: You know, at times like I'll be honest, I'll just
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: say it like I wish I had a better story,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Like I wish like I was at times like almost
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: envious of not having this like really gritty, like terrible
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: upbringing where I'm like, yeah, that's why I did what
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I did, or that's how I got to where I got.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Do you ever feel that or when you look at
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: that kind of childhood that you grew up in, Like,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: how do you view it? I guess in the lens
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: of now looking back on it.
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I've I've definitely felt that. And kudos to you, man.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: I read I read a little bit about your story,
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: and likewise, I've been following you and I just love
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: that we get to do this and kind of shoulder
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: to shoulder and talk about it. And the truth is
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: like when I when I got sober, someone sat me
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: down because I was like, dude, I don't know, like
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: there's parts of my story that don't seem so interesting.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, it gets definitely it's gnarly at some point.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: But he looks me back in the eyes, like, dude,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: the truth is the truth. He's like, the good news
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: now is all you have to do is be honest, right,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: And so like I've I've tried to lean into that.
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: But if you, you know, looked.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: At the town I grew up in, I mean it's
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: like a country club town in South Jersey, right, Like
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: I didn't want for anything. I had the nice baseball bat,
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: I had the nice glove. I you know, there was
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: always food on the plate, right and like sure, like
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: I could have dressed it up and bullshited people about
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: my upbringing, but I I'm proud of that today and
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: like I lean into that. I guess is really the
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: name of the game.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: Well, you said that there was darkness and alcoholism and
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: antarexi and all that, So when did that start playing in.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: So so, my sister's very open. She had an eating disorder,
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: and that was kind of like I remember that back,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Like I remember dropping her off to those appointments when
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: I was in high school, right, Like mom would drop
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: me off at sports practice and she would go see
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: her therapist and that was like all like over over
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: my head, you know. My older brother I would say,
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: like maybe has a little work all like perfectionism or
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: work ahol. And then there's me, right, Like I think
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: for the most part, I had a good high school experience,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: got into college, played college baseball. But I just always
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: loved the party, you know, and it's just it was
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: the most important thing in my life. Like if I
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: knew that I had a drunk coming that's all I
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: really cared about, and it didn't really add up for
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: me until until I got this brain tumor and ended
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: up in surgery and they started pouring pills down my throat, right, Like,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: that's when it really was like pouring gasoline on the fire.
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: But I think I think, like I you know, I
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: think I like to say.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Like I've done a lot of work and I've looked
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: at my childhood and you know, I would tell you
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: that like in my household, we didn't We are a
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: loving family and we always joke, but we don't really
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: have those conversations where like there was never the birds
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: and the bees talk. There was never like to talk
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: about don't do drugs. It was kind of just like
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: kind of figure it out on your own. And I
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: don't know that was just my parents' way of parenting
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: or whatever it was, but it's definitely interesting to look
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: back at it now and that in my work, right,
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: like I see all these families come into my care
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, I know that because that's what
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: it felt like for me growing up or whatever like that.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: So I don't know, I could talk about this stuff
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: for hours.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Well, good thing we have a lot of time with
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: you then the so for those that don't know, because
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that I think unfairly to you
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: when you're on the show and then post show, you know,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: people really grab gravitated and hold on held on to
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: the story that you were a recovered addict and that
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: you had that story. But what they missed in that
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: is kind of, uh, how that started, and that was
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: with a brain tumor where the medicines and the pain
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: pills and these things kind of were given to you
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: through the medical profession. And so if you don't mind
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: kind of giving us that story of you know, you
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: played college baseball and then at what age did you
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: find out that you had a brain tumor and how
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: did that kind of go through you know process.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's and this is also I actually celebrate
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: twelve years tomorrow, so this is all right. Yeah yeah,
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: so it's all like im it's that time of year
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: where I'm feeling all the fields. But so I appreciate
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: that we're talking about all this stuff. So look, I
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: don't I don't blame doctors. I don't blame the medical profession.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: I think we've come a long way since that experience.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: As a society. But I will tell you that free surgery.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Like definitely loved the party, Definitely wasn't afraid of a
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: bond hit, definitely dabbling in pills and coke and all
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: the that you kind of do in high school and college.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: And then I graduate college and I'm living this whatever
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: normal existence. I get my first job, I'm dating my
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: college sweetheart, and life is kind of good, aside from
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: the fact that I'm probably blacking out like three or
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: four times a week. So prior to the surgery, I
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: already had these tendencies, right Like, I already there was
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: something inside me and and I'm very aware of that.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: And what happened was it was Memorial Day weekend, so
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: it was the beginning of summer. Me and my college
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: buddies had rented the house down the Jersey Shore. We
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: were going to go, you know, party for the weekend,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: and we were packing up the cores and the car
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: and I just I hadn't been feeling good for a
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: couple of weeks, and I said to them, I was like, guys,
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: I gotta I got try and figure this out. And
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: I literally I remember calling this X Ray place, which
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: is kind of like your side of the road, suburban
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: kind of strip mall X ray place, and I made
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: an appointment.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: I literally was a drive in. I drove in and
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: this sweet X.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Ray technician or whatever you want to call it, came
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: back after she had taken a few scans, and she
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: was white as a ghost, and I could just tell
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: something was wrong. She was like, you're not You're not moving.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: I need to basically call an ambulance. And so from
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: that moment, within the next twenty four hours, I'm at
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: University of Penn Hospital in Philadelphia getting this tumor cut
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: out of the back of my head. And there was
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: no like pre op. There was no conversations like we
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: got to get this thing out of here and we gotta,
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: you know, worry about it after the fact. So I
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: go from you know, I'm going down the shore with
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: my friends to you know, having this life threatening surgery
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: in a matter of twenty four hours. So I don't
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: know what the hell is going on. And I remember
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: waking up in the ICU, like you know what, naked
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: like with all these things like tied into me and
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: they're just pumping me with meds, right, And I remember
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: thinking to myself, like there's no way that I kind
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: of feel this good after having that just happened to me,
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: and it clicked in my mind that the meds were
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: doing that for me. And so, you know, I spent
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: whatever it was, a couple of weeks in the hospital.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: And the one thing I will say, there was never
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: a doctor that came in and said, hey, these are
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: the meds we're putting you on. You know, this is
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: what they do and this is what you have to
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: watch out for. They kind of just gave it to me.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: And I got out of the hospital and I finished
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: off by prescriptions and I started to probably feel a
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: little bit of those withdrawal symptoms, and I took to
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: the streets, like I started buying drugs on the streets.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: And from there it was kind of like off of
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: the races, crazy so quick.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that I mean, you know that kind of
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: went off to the races. I think, get it going
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: to the streets. You know. For me, I had my
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: very first high school start at quarterback, big deal for me,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: blow out my knee, you know, like four plays in
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: just to totally destroy my knee. Sports are done, Like
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I'm done.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: That was it.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: That was it, Like never again all three ligaments, like
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I never recovered. I came back and but just was
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: like a shell of myself athletically, and it was the
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: identity switch for me, like it was the Hey, this
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: is the thing I've known, this is what I've been
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: known for, this is what I thought my future looked like.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Now I'm just a student and a pretty poor one
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: at that, and really have no clue what life is
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: going to look like. And so the the medicine started there,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: like the painkillers started there, and then they numbed me
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: like that, like as soon as I got off of them,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, I started to feel that
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: like depression and I started to feel the identity switch.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: And so the pills numbed my senses and kind of
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: made me feel non existent, which is what I was
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: looking for, and that's where the addiction started. And then
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: obviously I had hit the streets as well. I know
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: what that looks like, hitting the streets for me. So
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: that started in two thousand and eight ended in twenty twelve.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we were out there semi same.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the you know, for me, at least, my
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: hitting the streets look like this stealing. And then obviously
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: buying wherever I could. For those that are listening, obviously
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: you do this for a profession now, And I think
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: for me, as I've walked through this journey, it's all
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: it's been really good to talk talk about it because
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I think it a lot more people than we understand
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: are dealing with this. What did that look like for
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: you hitting the streets? Like what kind of things could
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: you share and warning signs? Maybe for family and friends?
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's heavy, and I appreciate you sharing, bro,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: And it's like, this is why I do what I do,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: because I get to share openly with guys like you
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: about that people here and probably over dramatize, but really
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: it's just a part of our story and we choose
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: to lead into that. And I think my truth about
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: podcasts in general is I don't like get super excited
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: for them or love them, but if we help one
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: person today, that's really it was all worth it, right,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: Like at the end of the day, That's what I
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: really truly believe. And my experience has told me that
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: when I do these things, typically.
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: The DM start flying in and we start to help
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: some people.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: You know, For me one, it has absolutely changed in
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: the last ten years I was out there.
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: Now, I wouldn't I wouldn't be alive.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Just because fentanyl, which is the synthetic popia that's being
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: put in all these street drugs, and it's basically fifty
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: times stronger than the painkillers you and I did, right,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: So people are dying left and right. I mean, you
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: see the narcan up here on my shelf. I mean
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I carry that where because you just never know. But
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: for me, you know what it looked like is I
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: obviously had a lot of guilt and shame around the
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: fact that I was hooked on drugs, so I didn't
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: want anyone to know about my habit. Initially, I found
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: a drug dealer in town that sold pills, and I
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: managed to kind of keep that habit going for I
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: would say about a year after the surgery, where you know,
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: you wake up, you text a drug dealer, you go,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: you buy your whatever head stashed for the day, you
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: take them, you do them. And it's a crazy cycle
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: because what started as swallowing pills turns into snorting pills,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: and then I'm smoking pills, and it's just like the progression, right,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: and at every step along the way, I was resetting
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: my tolerance. Yeah, as you probably know, right, Like you
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: go from taking a five milligram perk to take in,
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: you know, one hundred milligrams of oxycon in the day,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: like whatever it was for me, that's what it was
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: for me. And then beyond, you know, And then what
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: happened was I ended up in rehab for the first time.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: And while rehab saved my life, eventually, I will say
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: that the first time I was in rehab, I learned
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: about heroin, I learned about other drugs. I got super curious.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: I knew that I wasn't done. So I got out
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: of treatment and tried to find pills, couldn't and I
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: don't know what happens. I found pills, I started doing it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: I was like, okay, like this is becoming too expensive
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: too quickly. And then I went and bought a bag
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: of heroin for the first time, and again that reset
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: my tolerance. And a bag of heroin's ten bucks right
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: whereas a p I was paying fifty sixty dollars a pill.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: And then I kind of lived that way for a
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: certain period of time, and then that's when the needle
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: came into play and I started shooting drugs, you know,
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: So it's like it goes from this crazy brain tumor
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: to hooked on pills to it's an expensive habit to
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: in rehab. So it's an even.
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: More expensive habit to heroin.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: And that's why I always say, like, you need to
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: normalize that word, because you know, I say heroin to
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: someone and they look at me like I have four eyes,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: when in reality it's you know, more people are doing
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: it than you realize.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: How did you get into that rehab? Was there an
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: intervention with your family?
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Great question. So the first time I went to rehabit
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: was so I was married previously. I got married in
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: June of two thousand and nine to my college sweetheart,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: and she saved my life. I will say that here
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: on the record. And we were basically married for a year.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: She knew that I loved to party and that something
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: was off, but she also loved me right because we're
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: lovable people. And then in so it was like October
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: of twenty ten, the wheels were starting to come off,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: and like the three thousand foot overview of my life
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: is I'm newly married. I'm living in this house and
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: like the town I grew up, and we had this
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: little dog that's running around, and you know, there's like.
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: Two cars in the driveway. I'm working, She's a teacher.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: On the outside, again, it looks like we had this
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: pretty normal life, but behind the scenes, I'm hooked on pills.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: I'm building like massive gambling debt, and my entire life
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: is a lie, right, and I'm starting to get disconnected
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: from the people in my life that mean the most
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: to me. So that story is actually pretty hilarious. My
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: wife and mom were out at a bar classically in
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: the town of Pattonfield, where I grew up, and one
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: of my friends actually went up to them and told
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: them that I was that I had a drug problem.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: So my mom came home to my house.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: I'm like sitting there watching the Phillies game, and she's like,
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: we know what's going on.
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: I'm like, what the hell, what are you talking about?
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: She goes, we know you're hooked on drugs.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: So that night, I actually drove myself to a rehab
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: that I had seen a billboard for on the side
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: of the road, which is insane. I think I was
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: their first and only drive in customer ever, because I
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: just like I didn't know what else to do right,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: And so I slept in that in the parking lot
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: of that rehab, I like knocked on the door of
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: the detox. It's a hilarious story actually if you think
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: about it, like don't you can't just walk into rehab?
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: And then I admitted the next day and I stayed
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: for for twenty eight days. And you know, while it
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: didn't stick, I learned a lot that first time around.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, did you did you want to? I mean when
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: when they confronted you, I think there's the piece here
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: I want to dig into a little bit. So I
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: don't know if you've learned that you could if you
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: could speak to this, Is there a healthy way to
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: confront somebody who's an addict? Did they do it? And
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: I mean typically people have no idea, Right, your mom
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: and your your wife find out and they come home
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: and they're like probably freaked out, they're nervous, they're scared.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And then they come home they're like, we know what's
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: going on? Like is there a way they could have
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: done this better? Not that like they messed up, but
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: is there a way they could have done this better?
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: And then the second part of that is were you
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: ready to hear this? From somebody you loved.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: So there's a couple questions. There was I ready. I
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: there was a sense of relief when I found out
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: that they knew because I had been living such a lie, right,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: so the fact that it was out me open, I
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: did feel a little shift. I was not ready to
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: be done drinking and doing drugs. That had never crossed
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: my mind. But I'm also like a mama's boy. I'm
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: super sensitive and so like when my mom walked through
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: the door, I always respected my mother, and so I.
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: Was going to listen, and I felt it in my soul.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Looking back, maybe if they had a professional or went
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: about it in a little bit of a different way,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: could it have had a different outcome. I don't know.
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: The research actually suggests that.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: The willingness that you go into rehab with has no
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: bearing on whether or not you're going to stay sober
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: or not. You know, like you hear a lot of
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: times people are like, well they got to hit rock
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: bottom before they go in, and get like that's bullshit, right,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Like I've seen people turn their lives around who you know,
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: just wanted to turn their lives around, Or I've seen
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: people go to rehab kicking and screaming that end up
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: with a really good outcome. So don't I don't really
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: buy into that. I think for like the listeners, if
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: you're concerned about a loved one, obviously having a professional
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: guide you is key becau because it removes the emotion
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: from it, right Like a family member, a spouse, a brother,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: a sister, it's just going to be emotional.
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: It's just going to be too emotional, right.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: And what I always say is like, for me, if
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: there's a professional in the room and there's an intervention
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: going on, I'm not going to use my kind of
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: like I'm not going to weaponize some of the I
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: would usually weaponize against my family and my loved ones
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: because I don't. I would be embarrassed to do that, right, Like,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: it kind of takes the air and the emotion out
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: of the room because I don't want them to see
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: the act that way.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: So, but it all comes back to love and compassion
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: and just making sure that the person who's struggling with
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: their mental health or their substantutes disorders is seen and heard.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: That's so much of it. And I've done tons of
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: interventions and sometimes they go and sometimes they don't. Typically
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: if you stay on them though, they'll eventually ask for help.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Who are the professionals? Like, if somebody's out there listening,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I'm in this scenario. I need to
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: reach out to a professional to help me with through
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: this with me.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah you can DM. I mean we have look,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: I have, like so released recovered my company here in
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: New York, we have seventy something employees trained intervention is
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: on staff. I mean, we we get these calls all day,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: every day, and if it's not us, then we will,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: you know, refer you out to the to the appropriate person.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: And that's really been the blessing and the curse of
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: this whole platform. I guess you would call it. That
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: I've been given is that I have to be very
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: mindful these days of when I post or when I
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: put something out there, because every time I do, the
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: influx of people kind of asking for help and wanting
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: assistance can can be overwhelming. And you know, like the
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: like the drug addict that I am, I want to
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: help everyone and I want to do it all and
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: sometimes that's not healthy for me.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: So did you do you find that there is like
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: that you were hiding it? I mean I'm sure I'm
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: assuming that you were hiding your your addiction symptoms. What
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: did you do to hide it? And what should family
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: and friends look out for in people when they're a
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: suspect of it.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, and Ben, I don't know if you can
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: relate to this, but we're pretty good.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: I was just gonna say my first response is, I
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: don't think anybody would know. Really, no, they had no idea, Like.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: Your behavior wasn't different because you just feel like you're
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: in your normal state.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I like super I was probably in a pretty good
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: mood most of the time.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, actually, if you look at me a
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: bend right now, right like two pretty probably I would say,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: like charming, charismatic guys, you put a smile on and
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: fake it, right. So I think that's the life I
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: lived for a very long time, and I was I
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: was fun to hang out with, Like I mean, like
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: we went out on a Friday night, we were probably
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: getting into something pretty pretty exciting just because whatever.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my parents. You know, obviously new bits
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: and pieces of this. The book that I wrote explains
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: it in a lot more detail, and then the questions
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: started to come out for that, you know, some of
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: the questions and interviews I get is like, are you
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: ever upset with your parents for not like helping you more?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, because like one of my main
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: goals was to keep the people I loved like not
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: knowing about this, and so it would have been a
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: really hard mystery or a really hard thing for them
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to crack when you know, I wasn't letting them in
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: on this secret or this thing that I was hurting with.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: And and so I guess that's a good point too.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's like if you know, if you're sitting there,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: you're feeling shame and gil as a family member or
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: a loved one because you didn't know or you didn't
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: ask the right questions at the right times, so that
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: somebody that was hurting was you know it, you know,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: telling you about this, like don't don't carry that because
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: you know, as an addict, at least, I was working
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: really hard to keep it inside of me.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So you're saying that your mom and your wife
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: were out at a bar, had no idea that you
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: had these issues, and then somebody else came up and
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: told them, and that's how they found out. And that
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: was the first time they had an inkling.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they were like sitting there swirling shot on a
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Thursday night. And it's funny, my buddy that.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: Actually outed me.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: I always laughed because he I ended up putting him
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: in rehab like four years later, so I got him back.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: But I credit him with being part of the reason
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: that I'm here today because if he didn't do that,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: I don't I don't really know what would have happened.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: And what I tell all family members, Like, the thing
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: that I think is important for people to understand about
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: behavioral health care, about substance use disorder, about addiction is that,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: you know, if I had the cure, if I had
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: the magic answer, I wouldn't be sitting on this podcast.
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: I'd be flying around on my private checks.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: I would have sold the solution, right, Like if you
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: look at heart disease and diabetes and some of these
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: other diseases out there, you go to the doctor, they're
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: going to tell you what to do, They're going to
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: put you on medication, they're gonna, you know, if you
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: have cans like whatever it is, and you're, as the patient,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: going to follow those recommendations to a t because you
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: want to live right or you want to get your
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: diabetes under wrap, or you want to beat cancer or
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: what like. With this, I could go to a rehab,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: or I could go to a therapist, or I could
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: go to a doctor, and they could make five suggestions,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: and the addict in me is going to be like, well,
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I don't really want to do that. I'll think about
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: doing that. I'll probably go to rehab next month. So
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: there's no blueprint on what really works here, which is
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: why anytime I talk to a family, I make sure
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: that they're taking care of themselves first, because the most
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: powerful thing that can happen is when the family changes, right,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: because so much of this is en messed in that
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: family of origin and the way you grow up. And
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: if the family can change and the mom can stop
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: enabling or whatever it is, then the identified patient, so
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: like me in this case, is going to realize that
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to start to understand that my bullsh
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: isn't working anymore, and I'm going to be forced to.
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: Kind of look at myself.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: So a big part of this is like each family
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: member or the wife or the spouse or whoever it
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: is taking care of themselves and them changing so that
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: the whole family system can change, if that makes sense.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: There's a there's so much here is Zach to break down,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: and all of it's important. I don't think we have
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: time to talk through all the process, you know, But
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: looking back, you know, I'm sure you have similar stories.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: I've lost, you know, close friends. My best friend in
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: high school passed away due to fit and all use
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: when we were sophomores in college. So you know, there's
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: people out there right now who have lost loved ones.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And there's also I just had a time this weekend.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I was with a group and one of the guys
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: had just recently gotten sober from the same type of
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: pills that I was using. We're kind of chatting through it,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: like how lucky are we?
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: You said it earlier, like the amount of pills I
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: was taking, Not that it would dramatize it, but like,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: it's it's scary for me to think about now. It
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: frightens me that that was what I was putting in
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: my body. And people ask me, and I want to
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: hear your response, but they said, people ask me, like,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: what does it feel like to be sober right? Or
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: what does it feel like not to be using anymore?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, I don't know if this is
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: for everybody's story. I want to hear mostly because I'm curious.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Like the addict like in me always wants a pill
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: like that has not gone away. It's not like all
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: of a sudden now I'm sitting here being like, no,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: this does not sound fun to me. Still the feeling
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I don't wish to have again like that still sits
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: inside of me. The difference now is that there's decisions
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: and tools that you know, I've had to learn and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: implement in my life to not open up the bottle
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: or to not get back there. So for somebody listening
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: and for yourself in your experience, somebody's maybe feeling some
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: shame because they've recovered and they're sitting there going, yeah,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: but I want it bad, Like are they Are we
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: alone in that?
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Am I? Am I alone in that feeling? Or is
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: that a common feeling?
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: I think it's a common feeling. This might be.
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: We differ a little bit.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: I think for me, the obsession to drink and drug
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: was lifted at some point, and I don't crave that.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: You know, the thing that's really interesting is that I've
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: been I've been working in behavioral health care now for
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: the last eleven years. So I've seen so many cases
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: come across my desk where you know, they're they're and
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: they're all just so different. They're all like, so your
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: case is different than my case, which is different than
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: the you know, the galaxit next to me. And that's
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: why it's so important to kind of approach this thing
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: with love and compassion, because your story is different than mine, right, Like,
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Like for me, I don't drink, I
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: don't do drugs. I live this like completely sober lifestyle.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: I know other people in my life who you know,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: have have had a cocaine problem and they've been able
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: to put the cocaine down and they can still have
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: a glass of wine on a Friday night, right Like
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: I don't. I don't have that luxury because I'm convinced
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: that that will lead me to, you know, other drugs.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: And so you're absolutely not alone, you know, in the
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: fact that, like you still have these cravings from time
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: to time. I think where and I can only use
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: my experience. Where I go with it is that I
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: look at the last twelve years of my life and
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: what I've been able to do and my my existence
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: is next next level, and I still get to do,
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Like one of my big things today is showing people
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: that I still get to do some of the coolest
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: this planet has to offer. I just don't have to
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: drink and do drugs. And in my first year, you know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: I didn't do those things. But like this last weekend,
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: I was up at Saratoga with my buddies from from
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: high school, Like we were at the horse races. We were,
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: you know, up all night, dancing, the whole thing, and
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: and they're partying their asses off, and I'm right there
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: with them, just making a decision not to drink and
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: do drugs. So there's that. And then the other thing
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: I will tell you, like in your case, from my
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: case or anyone else who's kind of you know, on
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: this journey, is there's a lot of like shame and
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: stigma around this word. So like, you know, maybe you
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: don't do pills for five, six, seven, ten years, and
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: then you have a slip and people really struggle to
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: come back from that. And what I would tell that
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: person is like that little slip or whatever happened, doesn't
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: discount the many years of work you did to get
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: to that point and at any point in time, you
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: can get right back on and stay sober for that day.
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: So I don't know that was helpful if I answer
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: your question.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: But that's kind of just yeah, everyty story is different
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: and there there are different elements to everything, you know.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I think the point that I was trying to make
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: is like the shame and the guilt I would like
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: to release from the people out there struggling or the
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: family that feels like somebody struggling, because that was never helpful.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Like the shame of the guilt was the stuff that
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I was trying to get, you know, rid myself from
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: and one of the you know, catalysts to the start.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And so I like that. I mean, I don't like
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: that makes it sound like I'm that I knew going in,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: or I was trying to push you in a certain direction.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I am appreciating, I guess as I listened to you
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the normalization of these conversations and these words and these experiences,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: because I think normalizing these experiences and allowing an open
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: space to talk about it and allowing a space for
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: compassionate love would have been the only thing that would
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: have helped me, at least in my personal experience been
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: the only thing that I would have felt comfortable being like, yeah,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: this is this is where I'm at, and this is
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: this is where I you know, where I don't want
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: to go.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: Zach Ben recently had knee surgery. How do you walk
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: addicts through who have recovered into a time where they
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: might need the drug again under medical supervision.
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: Case by case, Really did you have to take that or.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: No I did. Yeah I had my system, but yeah,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: you know, if you have an answer to this, but yeah,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: I'd have my own personal system for that time.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's a lot of ways. I mean,
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: we've had people in our care here at release that,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: you know, two months into their stay in one of
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: our programs, they need to get some type of major
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: surgery done, and we approach that with extreme caution. You know.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: The first thing I always say is like advil and
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: title all is pretty damn good when taken correctly, and
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: so let's try that and give that a shot. And
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: if not, you need to take opiates or take pills
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: to help you get through the pain. There's a way
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: that we can do that. Obviously, consulting with your doctor
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: is a big thing there, and being really open and
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: honest with them about you know, your previous experience being
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: hooked on drugs and hoping that they have some bedside
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: banner to be able to work with you on that.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: And then you know, enrolling your loved ones, enrolling the
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: people in your life that care about you, and for
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: all all this stuff, It all, for me goes back
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: to honesty, Like if.
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: I am honest, it bends honest.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Actually, if you're honest about whatever it is that we're
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: going through, then we have a shot to get through
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: it in a pretty in a pretty safe and healthy way.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: Where it goes off the rails is you know, someone
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: get surgery two months into recovery and you know they're
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: managing their own pills and they're picking up the scripts
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: and you know they're doubling down on the dosage. I mean,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: the dosages are there for a reason, and the directions
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: are there for a reason, and so trying to you know,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: follow those things to the best your ability and leaning
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: on your.
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: Support group, you can absolutely get through it.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know what I did, and maybe
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: it's helpful, maybe it's not for anybody. Is my wife
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: and my mom who are here kind of caring for me.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: For that first two weeks, they were in charge of
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: my bottle, and then there was literally a day where
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: I remember looking at my mom and saying, I am
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: enjoying this too much, like I don't need these anymore.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: You need to take these away from me. She had
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: started to hint at it already, like hey, you know,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: we're ten days out and you're running through these things,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, I'm enjoying this, Like I I
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: like this. Now, it's probably best I stopped, and we stopped,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: and as much as you know, eight o'clock would roll
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: around and be like, you know, it sounds really good
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: right now is for her to go back up and
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: give me like they were in control of that, and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: they had to say, no, here's yeah, here's some Adville Hills,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: here's some til and all. You'll be fine. So it
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: was the honesty. I think the honesty was just helpful,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: and you know, we got through it well, I think,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: as you know, for me. And when I said it earlier,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: like maybe the addict always at least I crave it
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: at times in my life a lot less than it
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: used to be, Like yes, it like saying it out loud,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: admitting it now that my family and my wife know
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: that this was a part of my story, like you know,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: they're not shocked, and I'm like, you know what i'd
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: really really feeling right now And they're like, yeah, that's
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: not an and I'm like, yeah not, So what are
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: we going to do. Let's go for a run, Let's
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: go for a walk, like I got to get my
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: mind off this. So it's the honesty and just kind
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: of owning it a little bit. I guess for me
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: has helped me not have access to it, or not
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: want access to it, or not fight for access to it.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: I relate to that so much. I love that your
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: mom and wife are so supportive, and for me, it's
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: like it just goes back to this, like as a
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: human being, I want to be loved, right, I want
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: to be believed. I want people to like me. And
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: so when I think about my childhood and kind of
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: the way this episode or podcast started, you asked me
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: about that, and I remember from a very young age
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: just wanting to be loved, like that's it, and that
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: like the lying for me almost started before any addiction,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: because I would tell people what I thought they wanted
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: to hear. If I thought it was going to make
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: them like me more, right, And what I've learned in
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: this experience over the past twelve years, when I just
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: tell the truth, I'm actually a pretty decent, likable guy,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: and I'm gonna make mistakes like anyone else. But it
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: just makes everything so much easier.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: You know, how did your first marriage fall apart?
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can give you I mean, you could
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: guess at that one, but one. I was twenty five
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: and I don't I don't know that I even understood
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: what marriage really was. I still don't know if I
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: understand that. That's why I'm thirty nine and single. But
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: I was twenty five and I just wasn't ready. I
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: wasn't ready for any of it. You know. She was
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: an amazing woman, and she was a school teacher, like
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: could have a glass of wine, could not have a
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: glass of wine. Good great family, and I just put
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: you know, they kind of say this thing in recovery, like.
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: Whatever you put in front.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: Of your recovery, you're going to lose, right, And it's
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: like the other way around, right, Like I put partying
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: and drugs and alcohol above everything else, and so naturally
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: that caught up to me and the real, the real fan.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: I get like a little emotional talking about it because
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: she truly did save my life.
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: So when I was in rehab.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: The first time, it's so crazy to think about, Uh,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: we did this like family group or whatever it was,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: and basically, like me and my wife at the time,
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: Jen made this contract and it essentially said like if
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I got drunk or high again.
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: She was going to leave me.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: And it's so hard for family members to honor those
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: types of contracts. And I got out of treatment and
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: I broke the contract and she came in the room
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: and she basically said, this is it. I'm done. You
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: know I'm not doing this. She's like, I love you,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: I don't love this, and her dad came down to
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: the house that night when she figured it out. I'm like,
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: she stood so strong and I needed that. I needed that,
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: and and that resulted in me kind of going on
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: this eight month run when I knew she was really leaving,
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: when I knew she was actually saying like the party's over,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: that took me to some pretty deep, dark places that
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: I had to get to and ultimately.
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: Back into rehab the second time.
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: When you say, you know the vows in sickness and
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: in health, would you consider what do you think about
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: that and her leaving.
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: I think she did the right thing. I think.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: I don't blame I don't blame her at all. I don't.
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: I mean, and there's not it. There wasn't even a
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: moment early on.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Where I blamed her. I totally understood it because I
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: just wasn't. I think I've always been a good person.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: I don't think I was behaving in a good way.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: And there was no one on this planet that should
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: have put up with that. And the reality is is
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: like my dad and my one of my best friends,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: this guy Anthony, were like the last two guys to
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: kind of hang in hang in with me. Most of
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: the people were kind of decided to do the same
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: thing she did, which is like this is too much.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: That's powerful because you know, I remember, you know, I
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: believe in a god above and so that's part of
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: my story as well. And I remember, you know, during
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: this time, friendships were leaving, and you know, romantic relationships
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: were ending, and not necessarily they knew why. But I
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: just wasn't. I was sketchy. I was a little bit
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: like I was lying half my life. I guess most
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: of my life, hundred percent of my life. And then
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: the prayer that I prayed. I remember I woke up
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: one morning after making a really terrible decision, and I
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: looked myself in the mirror, and I looked at myself
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: in the eyes in the mirror, which I'd never do.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: It's a really weird thing to do. It's like stare
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: inside your soul. And I just remember this feeling of
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: that you're not the man you ever wanted to be.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: And so my realization now and so I prayed to God, God,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: please intervene if you're there, and I believe God did.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And that's my story. But the interesting part of that
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: looking back now is like I the people that left me,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I was never mad at like I was never like,
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: you know, screw you. It was almost more upset with
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: myself at times because I felt like like I knew
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I wasn't a good dude. I thought I was. You know,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: people would say, you know been so nice, Well, yeah,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: he's always really friendly, but like in my heart, like
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: I knew that I wasn't a good dude, and or
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: I wasn't behaving in a way that I wanted to behave,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: like make me the man that I wanted to be
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: or a dream of was a thought through my head,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: and so I relate with that.
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: Do you believe you're a good guy today? Like, have
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: you gotten around?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I have a comfortable I have a comfortable perspective on myself,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: which means, do I think I am the perfect guy
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: that in my head I could be?
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: No?
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Do I feel good about the way that I treat people,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: I treat myself, the honesty that I live my life
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: with the way that I treat my wife and my
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: family and my friends. Yes, I feel very good about
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: that because I my intention is really good now. I
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: don't have the hidden secrets. Do I think I'm you know,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: the best dude? No, I have terrible moments, but I
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: can forgive myself now because they're true moments, Like they're
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: not lying moments. They're not me trying to fake it.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: They're they're honest, and so that's what helps me. I
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: guess say, yeah, I'm human, like I'm not perfect, and
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: that's okay, I'm good anything to that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: I just think it's amazing. Like I look at you,
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I see a cool guy. I think someone like someone
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: I probably like to have a beer with or hang
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: out with, you know, like whatever it is.
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: And I think for.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: Whoever listens to this or sees this, I think it's
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: really powerful to just and Ashley is like sitting over.
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: There, I like to hear it too. It's so interested
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: going back and forth like this.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: And I always thought it was so weak to talk
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: about my feelings or be honest, like you know, like
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: I grew up and at home where it's like, you know,
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: give me twenty push ups and take out the trash, right,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: And that was like that was toughness. And now today
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: I think it's tough to like pop on a podcast
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: with you guys and just like lay it all out
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: there and not give it more people think about it
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: because at the end of the day, the people that
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: are judging me, I don't really care anyway.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the weird thing, Zach just selfishly in personally, I
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: got to share this that you know, I wrote this
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: part of my book and then it comes out and
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: then like it became the interview that everybody wanted. People
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Magazine was like, hey, let's talk about your addiction. It's
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: like this is this is a big part of my life,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: but it's also a very small part of my life, like,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: this is four years of my life. This is not
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: my complete story. And I remember this. I was visiting
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: my family and we had just the night before kind
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: of talking talked through this, and they were saying they
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: were proud of me for speaking up on this and
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: they believed it was important and all these things. And
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: I was feeling great, and I was like, you know,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: I got a great family. They love me, and I
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: got a great wife. She loves me, and they get it.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: My in laws were there and they love me. You know,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: they get it. And People magazine posted this picture of me,
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: and you know, the headline was like admits to addiction
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: or something, and the comments were awful, man, Like they were, oh,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: you know, so sorry for Ben for having an addiction
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: ten years ago. Didn't we all like what a what
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: a headline grabber? And the like it crushed me. It
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: might have been the weakest like moment. I vividly remember
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: sitting on the beach in Florida looking out at the
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: ocean being like, I mean I could, yeah, it just
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: like it threw me in a place that I did
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: not want to go back to. And so I think,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: as you're saying, how important it is to speak openly
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: about this. I believe it is. It did build some
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: grit inside me where I said, no, screw those people,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: like that's not the people I'm talking to, That's not
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: the people that need to hear this. But it's also important,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: like you say, as you were saying, to to respect
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: these stories with love and compassion, no matter where they
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: are or where they're at, or how you know, how
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: dramatic they seem or how undramatic they seem. They are
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: human stories and we need to you know, respect them.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: And so I share that to say, yeah, that sucked.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: That wasn't that long ago. That sucked. That was two
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: years ago. Like it threw me in a bad place,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: you know. For me, it's an interesting thing that the
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: show gave me a lot more confidence in my story
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: than I originally had going into it because I was
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: allowed to, you know, at some point just said no,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: I can't, I can't be in an environment. And it
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: was actually one of the producers along Gail came to
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: me and said, hey, I don't like you because I
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: don't know you, because you don't let anybody get to
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: know you. And I know there is more to you
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: than what you're sharing. And that was a four hour
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: sit down with him where I burst out and I
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I feel unmovable, I feel unlikable. I
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: feel like nobody knows me because I don't allow anybody
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: to know me. And that gave me the confidence then
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: step out and say, no, this is this is the
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: story I want to share. And that was you know,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: one of the parts I want to talk to you
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: about here is you did go on the show. You
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: obviously have an understand you know, a depth to you
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: and a story to you that is is is powerful,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: relatable that isn't uncommon amongst many and you said, hey, yes,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: I know this is part of my story. I know
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: this is a part of my life, and I'm going
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: to go on the show and now make it public.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: I would love to hear kind of how this show
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: affected you personally, if it was a positive or negative experience,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: if you know, just walk us through kind of your time.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, man, I mean, I don't know if I'm just
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable today, but like I don't talk about the
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: show a lot, and.
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: I don't know why. I don't know if I've like
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: pushed that part of my life away.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, obviously there was a relationship
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: that didn't work out, and I'm a super sensitive guy,
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: so maybe that's that has something to do with it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: But I can tell you that, I can tell you
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: my thought process leading up to it, which it was
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: the middle of COVID, right and I'm in New York.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: I'm thirty six, I'm living this beautiful life. I'm running
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: this company. Like everything was good, Like everything was really good,
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: you know, aside the fact that I probably worked too
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: much and I didn't really put any time aside for
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: to find a partner, you know, like I got sober
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: and I hit the ground running here in New.
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: York City, and I was building this company.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: And all this stuff, and the phone rang, you know,
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: like it does for all of us, I guess at
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: some point in time, and it was it was La calling,
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, I don't know.
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: What is this, you know, like what is this phone call?
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: And it was one of the producers, and I said,
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: lose my number, like I don't know what you're talking about,
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: like and then she got me. I remember, Ali, She's like,
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: is there any chance so like your sister like and
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: like I guess my sister had like gone on the
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: whatever and like filled out this application. I was like,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: all right, tell me more. And that's an example of
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: like that was my sobriety talking. That was my recovery talking.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: That was me saying like, okay, have an open mind
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: and just like put one foot in front of the other.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: And then for me, the beautiful part was like if
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: I had to fly to La and like sing and
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: dance in front of a bunch of producers, like whatever
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: you gotta do. Like I I was able to do
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: all of it like virtually because it was COVID and
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: then in like I mean, I think it was like
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: six weeks and where I got to it was like okay,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: like the world is shut down, this is an opportunity.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: I have to put the phone down and really see,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: like to your point, like if I'm lovable, if I'm
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: capable of love. And I felt really good walking into
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: it because I was very secure in who I was
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: and I had told my story any of times prior
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: to that. So for me, I was just gonna, like
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: my promise to myself is I'm going to walk into
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: this experience. I'm gonna be myself and I'm going to
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: try to be as authentic as possible. And when I think,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: the biggest thing I'm proud of from that whole thing
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: was watching it back and saying, like my friends saying
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: like that's you, like that we saw it, like you,
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: that is you as Clark, Like that is you on TV,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: And like that's the biggest compliment anyone could give me,
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: because like I am, sure people show up there and
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: you know, they try to act a certain way and
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: they end up shooting themselves in the foot and it
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: doesn't it doesn't go well. And that's why, like I
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: could start a whole nother thing about like when I
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: hear people say they get a bad edit or whatever,
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: like that's foreign to me because like I'm just and
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: maybe I got a good at it. I don't know,
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: But like what I say is like no one can
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: make me say or do anything. And so that was
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: just who I was and that's what I saw, right,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: you know, So I I don't know, that's just me, Zach.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: I was obsessed with you on the show, Like I
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: was like this, I am obsessed with watching this guy.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: And I know the relationship's over and I know that
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: you're not always comfortable talking about the show.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: You got me playing loose, right, you better ask now
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: because I'm playing loose.
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: Okay, if you could just kind of put yourself back
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: in that situation just for a minute without knowing what
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: comes of it. Yeah, when Claire laughed and Tasha came in,
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: how did you feel?
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Well? I think, I mean, if you ask anyone for
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: my season, I was probably going home the next day
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: if Claire stayed, because there was like this comedy thing
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: that I find just like it didn't go well for
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: zact like I just had bad jokes, they weren't funny.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: I kind of like unintentionally made fun of Claire in
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: a way that wasn't so nice, like my New York
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: and Philly kind of came out, and so like I
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: was pretty sure I was going home, like if there
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: was like and then she like runs off with Dale
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: and then we're sitting there for you know whatever. And
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: like I will say about all these humans, I love
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: like I've learned to love all of them, the guys,
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: the girl, like everywhere because I feel like there's that
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: common bond that we all share and you know, no
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: matter how messy it gets. So I think for me,
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: I was like grateful to kind of have this second opportunity,
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: and I was just kind of settling in, Like I
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: was kind of nervous and timid at the beginning, and
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: you know, like night want I didn't talk to Claire
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: and I think I had like one maybe sit down
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: with it, you know, so it was like it was
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: all very farn and I hadn't really watched the show,
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: so I didn't know the way that any of that
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: she was supposed to go, you know, and then Tasha
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: walked in. Obviously she's beautiful, and it's like this new
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: it was almost like this second opportunity, and at.
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: That point I felt a little bit more you.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Know, comfortable, just like it took me a moment to
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: settle in and and from there, like you know, it
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: was a it was a positive experience.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this show's such a unique experience, and I think,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: you know, Zach, I relate like I feel like I
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: got a good edit then or that. You know, when
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: people watch it, they're like, yeah, that's the guy I
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: know back home is boring and as you know, simple
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: as I seemed, you know, my buddies are like, yeah,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: that's you, Like we can we can watch you. And
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: that gave me some confidence going into it. You know,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I relate with your desire to go on the show. Also,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: you know, there was a secret hope inside of me
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: that maybe I would have a cooler story to tell
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: in my life to my friends, like yea, I went
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: on the Bachelor at one point, or I was on
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: the Bachelorette at one point, Like I thought that would
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: bring some interest and intrigue to my life. And there
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: was also a side of me it was like, I
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: just want, you know, to test myself if like I
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: am the person that I think I am, or if
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: I am still charming. Because I was twenty five years old,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: twenty four years old, I was two years out of
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: this thing for me, and so I was still trying
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: to figure myself out. And that's why the show is
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: so helpful. When Alan and all of his wisdom and
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: all on this and said, hey, I don't like yeah,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: and just said I don't like you because I don't
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: know you, and I was like, man, you're you're hitting
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: someplace I don't want to hit. And then you know,
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: everything comes out you obviously now and I know Ashley
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: wants to dig in a little bit to the proposal,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: uh into this, you know, and that's how I feel
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: in this.
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: Moment with you guys even talking right now.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: It's like, you know where a lot like like something
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: actually said like made me feel comfortable talking with you
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: guys about this, and I think, like any podcasts I
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: go and it's like, yeah, I'll talk about anything, but
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: the show. I'm like, what is that saying about me?
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: You know, it's like that that that's like there's something there, right,
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: and I have to like I can either look at
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: it or or not, and like the truth is that
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: should change my life, and like I do you know,
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: fly that flag when I when I can, because is
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: it's allowed me to help a lot of people and
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: and have some pretty cool experiences and you know, you
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: take to go with them bad in any situation.
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: So I don't know.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was my question to you, is you
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: know obviously you are more closed off to the show.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: And for me, it's such an important part of my
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: life and it will always be a big part of
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: my story because of the relationship that came from it,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: the relationship that ended from it, and then my journey
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: to find my wife kind of offhanded through it and
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: all these great things that have happened me from it,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And I just wondered if you look back on your
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: time now with the relationship over obviously that came from
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: the show and your job now and say what has
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: came from your experience on the show. That That was
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: my question to you is when you look back now,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: like how did how has it changed your life?
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: I probably don't stop and think about it enough, you know,
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: and give it enough, give myself enough credit, you know,
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: Like I don't like I'm being really honest with you.
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: I think there's probably times where I'm like, you know,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: like kind of the stuff you were talking about earlier,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: with like the guilt and the shame, Like I don't know,
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: like are other guys going to respect me as someone
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: who went on this show?
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: You know, like are other guys going to judge me?
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: And like, at my core, I know that that's just
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: me giving my power away to some bullsh narrative that's
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: not true because it did take a lot of balls
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: to like show up there and like lay it all
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: on the line. And so how has my life changed?
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: I mean I think I think in a lot of ways,
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: you know, everything from like this weekend, like being out
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: with my friends who have known me for twenty years
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: and someone asked for a picture and they're like, dude,
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: this is just so crazy, Like I just don't it
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: doesn't because to them, it's still very like every time
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: it happened, like it just doesn't make sense because I'm
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: just Zach to them, you know, and like to like
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: having some unbelievable like just experiences, like the things that
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: I've gotten to do that I I wouldn't have otherwise
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: gotten to do. But the real way I think that
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: it has changed my life is a lot to do
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: with what we talked about today, which is I have
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: been able to, you know, get really comfortable telling my story.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: I think I've had more people write me tell me
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: that I've I've changed their life or saved their life,
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: and I don't give that enough credit. And to your point,
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: been like, you know, I believe, like I grew up Presbyterian,
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: but I believe in God. My God might be a
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: little bit different than your God or actually, but I
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: believe in God, and I believe that it was meant
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: to happen for this purpose that I could get out
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: there and show people that there's another way to live.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: And if I can do it, than anyone can you know.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: That's really at the end of the day, like the
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: simplest answer to that question.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: Well, just yourself back in that position, like thinking about
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: your time on the show. For me, I just loved
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: watching you guys fall in love. I have been open
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: that I love Charity and Dutton season, but the one
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: that made me feel before that was yours. So there
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: was like a three year drought in that. Your proposal
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: was something that I'll always remember. I think it was
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: the last time I cried during a proposal, and I
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: remember this one thing that you guys kind of shared together.
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: You were like every other love before this, like this
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: is like the first real Like this is a love
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: above any other love I've ever experienced, and this was
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: you saying this is a thirty six year old guy.
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: So how do you look back on saying that and
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: feeling that now now that it's over.
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's a loaded question. I appreciate it. Thank
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: you for asking.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: You know, I meant it. I meant it at the time,
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: you know, I felt it at the time. And you know,
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: like the thing I always say is like true good
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: people don't always make a good relationship, you know, and
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: that's I think my experience there, Like for whatever reason,
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: there just was never like this. It's just never, you know,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: like like in the moment, I guess to answer your question,
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: like in the moment, it felt, it felt real, it
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: felt right, It was all those things, and you know,
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't change anything. I don't live and regret. You know,
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: it's a very special moment in time in my life,
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: regardless of what happened. And I think that's I think
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: that's a full answer.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, give me the things
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: that are real. It's one of the things I like
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: to live by, and that obviously this show, you know,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: for as goofy as it is, and for as wild
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: as it is, and for as disrespect as it can
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: be fairly by the public, there are moments within it
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: that are real and that we you know, talk about
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: here that cross into reality, like the show come becomes
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: a part of reality. And I think for you, as
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: we watched that it was real. And I think hearing
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: you say yeah it was, is like not only comforting,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: it's just exciting for me because it's one of the
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: things that we like to stand on here is Hey,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: this is going to affect your life, good or bad.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: If you're not yourself, it's gonna affect your life. If
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: you are yourself, you're gonna it's gonna affect your life.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: If you fall in love and you're honest about it,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: it's gonna affect your life. It's just gonna be a
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: part of you because it's a time in your life.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: You're not like leaving you know the world to do this.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: And so I think for me, it's exciting for you
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: to admit to that because a lot of people don't,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: or a lot of people, you know, hold on to
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: an anger, vengeance or say, hey, like I was just
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: confused and it was too fast, too soon, all these things.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, you felt it the time, and so
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: that shows you something.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I might be in the minority, like I would
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: never blame a producer. I would never like I'm a
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: big boy, Like I said what I said, I did
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: what I did, I meant it all like, and you know,
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: to your point, guys, it's like the number one question
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: I think I get asked with people that like meet
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: me and then they think they have my ear for
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: a second, it's like, what was it real? I'm like,
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: it's real for me, Like every moment was real, like
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: from sitting in between filming and like it was all real.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: You know, yeah, part of a TV show, but like real.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: I was there, I did it, I said it. Those
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: things happened like it was very real for me. So
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: much show that, you know. Maybe that's why I don't
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: talk about it as much. You know, I don't know.
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, on a lighthearted note, another thing that you
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: guys could bond over is the fact that you are
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: like a try you do. You do triathlons, but you
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: do marathons. You run a ton. This guy runs a ton.
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: He's about to do a triathlon. This say something that
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: is so beyond me.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm about to do a triathlon in October a full.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: No goodness, No, I'm not ready for that. My goal
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: is a full. Next year at thirty five will be
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: my first full. I've been doing sprints for years, which
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: are is a whole new training.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 5: I mean, you commit to a full, I'll commit to
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: a full with you.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: This swimming scares of shit out of me, though, let's
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: do a full together.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: I think right here, somebody's gonna listen to this and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: have a connection to a full and I want to
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: put it into my life, bad knees and all, I
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: want to put it into my life.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: If you're in, I'm in. I got buddies that are
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: training form now. It's insane.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: But yeah, does running and recovery have a lot to
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: do with each other.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: I think the running community is very similar to the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: recovery community, and that is just a group of really
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: good people kind of coming together around a common bond.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: And you know, they're just like my people, like the
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: running community are just the nicest, kindest people. I think.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: For me, from a mental health perspective, running, I would
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: be terrified if I ever got hurt because there are many, many,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: many days where you know, the prayers not work and
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: the meditation isn't working, like something's just off, and I
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: go off for a run to clear the mind because
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: that is just a tool that I picked up over
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: the years, and it's really really helped me. Like the
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: cheesy saying I think is like move a muscle, change
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: of thought, but that works for me for real, you.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, for me, it's never been you know, I
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: have friends and people that know who have had some
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: type of mental health or addiction. Things happen in their life,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: and you know, exercise is a good way for them
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: to kind of cope with it. For me, it's never
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: been a coping mechanism. Honestly, why I exercise every day
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: is because at thirty four years old and at twenty
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: four years old, I want to be in the better
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: shape next year than I was this year, just so
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: I can function and be like kind of like I
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: have a big enough ego where I'm like, I just
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: I want to be in better shape next year that
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: I was this year. I'm not allowing this to catch
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: up with me. So that's more of my drive, is
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: like I feel better about myself. But it's never those
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: two things haven't ever really related with me, and one
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: wasn't a response to the other.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: Actually, are you a runner? Are you a runner?
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: I wish I could be an exerciser. I just am not.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: I haven't done it since before my son was born.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: I was in the best shape of my life, working
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: out like four to five times a week, and it
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: just dropped off after that. I feel like he himself
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: as like a thirty pound weight is enough exercise for
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: me around the house all day.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: That might be my stock answer, I really wish I
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: could be an exerciser.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: But you guys are honestly inspiring me. I'm trying to
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: I'm feeling the way that I did in my body
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: after a workout. It is a good feeling. I'm going
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: to totally switch the topic right now because i know
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: we have to wrap up, but I think this is
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: a really important note to hit on and then I'm
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: going to let Ben and you have your final moment.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: Narcan is something that is behind you now and something
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: that is so important these days. As it well, you
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: can tell the people what it does and what do
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: you think about, like people just carrying it even if
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: they're like not at all in the environments in which
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: the fentanyl would be present.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think the easiest.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: So the real quick is Narkhan is an overdose reversal drug,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: So if someone is overdosing, you spray it up their
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: nose and it helps reverse effects of an overdose and
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: can literally save a life. I've personally witnessed and know
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: people that are alive because of because of Narkan and
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: the reason it's out in front more is one It's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: going to be over the counter starting in September, which
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: is a huge, huge, huge twin just means you can
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: walk into a pharmacy and buy it. Two, we lost
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: over seventy thousand people last year to opiate related overdoses
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: and over one hundred thousand people to overdoses in general,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: so it's clearly affecting country. And Three with fentanyl out
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: on the streets, Fentanyl, as I described earlier, is a
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: synthetic opiate, so it's man made. It's fifty times stronger
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: than any other opiate you're going to find out there,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: and literally, like as salt pebble, could send someone into
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: an overdose. And what's happening is that fentanyl is being
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: put into not just fake pills, but into marijuana, into cocaine,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: into drugs that you know, you show up as a
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: college freshman and you see your first line of cocaine
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: like I did, and you do that, there's a chance
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: that could be leased with ventanyl. So it's not just
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: about substance use disorder, it's about just living in the world. Yeah,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, so the easiest way for me to
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: explain it to your question about like, hey, do you
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: just carry this around? I would say that most homes
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: in America have a fire extinguisher, right, and I looked
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: it up.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: So I'm going to do a real on this because
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 5: I think it's genius.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: But I looked it up and there's like, you know,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: there were like three thousand residential fire deaths last year
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: in America, which is like a big number still and
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: like scary, but every home in America has a fire
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: extinguish for everyone knows what that is. I just gave
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: the numbers about overdose, right, one hundred thousand, and a
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: lot of people don't even know what narcan is. So yes,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: you should have it. Yes you should carry it around.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: If you need a way to find it or access it,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: you can certainly right me, It's a huge passion of
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: mine just because I know it's probably going to get
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: better before it gets worse. But that's my that's my
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: stick on narcan for right now.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: Quick follow up because I'm thinking for the audience right now.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: I'm obviously a huge proponent of it, but I think
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: that there's probably people wondering, well, if there is an
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: overdose rescued drug, isn't that just gonna encourage people to
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: just continue with their addiction further?
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: You can't treat people that are dead. Good answer, So
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: keep them alive and get good answer, you know, show
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: them some love and hopefully they can they can find it.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: I mean that's why, you know, we could do a
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: whole other episode on the multiple pathways to recovery and
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: harm reduction versus like for me like total abstinence to
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: the guy sitting next to me that you know, like
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: Ben might have had a pill problem and it's still
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: able to have a couple of beers on a Saturday
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: night like there's and they're all fine, right, They're all
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: fine as long as you're able to look at it
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: with an open mind and love one another.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: So well, buddy, thanks for coming on, stay in touch. Yeah,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: thanks for sharing this. You know, there's a few key
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: points I want to point out. One, it's beautiful hearing
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: it too, is you know, for you not to overdramatize, uh,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: your path, because I think it happened so often and
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's uh, it can be dangerous for multiple levels.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: One family hearing it to the person going through it,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: like the over roumatization of it can make it feel
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: a lot like just like a lot more chaotic than
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: maybe it is. And then the other point I want
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: to point out is just the consistency and coming to
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: somebody with love and compassion and not always knowing how
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: to do it well, but coming to them with love
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: and compassion. And it's going to save many lives. And
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: I hope this podcast and the people listening hear this
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: and they say, hey, we always love Zach. We watched
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: him on television like Ashley did. We fell in love
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: with Zach, and we fell in love with his story.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: And yes, this was a piece of history on the show,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't why we fell in love with him.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: We fell in love with him because who he is.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: He's a good looking dude, he's charming, he's nice. You know,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: he was open, he was honest, he was vulnerable, all
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: of these things. But then we respect Zach for what
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: he's doing now, what he did before. And I do
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: I believe when you do this stuff people listening. And
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: as you said at the beginning, and this we'll close with,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: if one person, one's person's life is saved because or change,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: let's not say saved, change for the better, because listening
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: to this episode, it's all been worth it, and it's
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: been worth it to do for the last eight years.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: Then outside of everything else. So, Zach Clark, thanks for
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: coming on, thanks for being honest, thanks for talking to us.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: We appreciate it. We'll talk to you again soon.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: Thanks, guys, and I can help you in any way.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: Let me know. It's great to see you and such
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: a pleasure.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for giving us your time.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 5: Peace, Bye bye.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: This has been a important, incredible, fantastic, honest, vulnerable, interesting
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: conversation with Zach Clark. It's the off season here at
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Thomas Famous Podcast, but doesn't mean we're gonna be away.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: We'll be back putting out new episodes of new content
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: for all of you and for us until The Golden
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: Bachelor starts and Bachelor in Paradise starts. So until next time,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: I've been Ben, I've been Ashley.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: Bye guys.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Follow the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast on
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: iHeartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.