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Assurance management: what it is and how to do it well · Project Podcast

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the episode. Welcome to the APM podcast.
1:00
APM is the childhood body for the project profession.
1:03
My name is Emma DeVito and I'm the editor of projects apm's
1:06
quarterly journal and your host today.
1:09
I'm speaking to Sarah Coleman and Andrew Schuster.
1:12
Sarah is a childhood project professional and fellow of a
1:15
p.m. and PhD researcher among many other roles she specializes
1:19
in operationalizing strategy and policy working across central
1:23
Public services and Private Industry.
1:26
Andrew is the national director of transformation risk and
1:29
advisory at PWC, Canada, Sarah and Andrew co-authored the
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recent a p.m. research report value of assurance management
1:37
practices which you can download at AP m dot org.uk.
1:41
This podcast, I'll be asking them to explore the Practical,
1:44
takeaways for practitioners from their research, but before we
1:48
dive in, let's define what we mean by assurance.
1:50
And by Assurance management, Defines assurances the process
1:55
of providing confidence. Stakeholders that projects
1:58
programs and portfolios will achieve their objectives for
2:01
beneficial change Assurance management.
2:04
Really wild is defined in the reporters a discipline that
2:07
provides transparency and confidence to the sponsoring
2:10
group that the portfolio program will project will meet its
2:13
objectives for beneficial change by focusing activities on the
2:17
riskiest aspects. The aim of their research was to
2:20
develop the understanding of how project organization has and
2:23
individuals can deliver an insurance Management Service.
2:27
And we hope that by the end of our discussion, you'll leave
2:29
with plenty of food for thought and why surance management
2:31
matters more now than ever and what you can do to create an
2:35
optimized Assurance Management Service Okay.
2:44
Welcome Sarah, and Andrew. Thanks for joining me today.
2:47
Perhaps, so could we begin with an explanation of what Assurance
2:51
management is exactly. Thank you, Ms. So, Assurance
2:56
management for projects programs, Mega projects, Etc,
3:00
and kind of run a spectrum of things, but it's all that the
3:04
focus of it. And the Nexus of it is really
3:06
about looking providing a degree of confidence to to governance.
3:13
Is around that informing decision-making for governance
3:18
as well. It's typically predictive, it's
3:22
not retrospective. It's what is going to happen and
3:25
how to manage risk around it. So it's very heavily concerned
3:31
with project governance project risk and also looking forward
3:36
probably project benefits as well.
3:39
So you've got all of those various aspects of it, but I
3:45
think a lot of the, the definitions that are currently
3:48
out, there are about objective examination, independent
3:52
assessment, there are also about controls and processes and
3:58
focused at independent perspective, cutting across
4:02
oversights, and biases. So there are a number of ways of
4:07
describing this. There's no single precise
4:11
definition and that's really why.
4:14
Andrew. And I within the research came
4:15
up with the kind of definition that we felt most comfortable
4:20
with given our own experience around this and also what we've
4:24
seen and what, and the organizations that we talked to
4:29
as well, just give us that precise definition again, the
4:33
insurance management definition that we've provided, is that a
4:38
discipline that provides transparency and confidence to
4:41
the sponsoring group. So that the portfolio program or
4:45
project will meet its objectives for beneficial change by
4:50
focusing activities on the riskiest aspects of portfolio
4:54
program or project. I'm Andrew, would you be able to
4:59
give us some insight into the state of assurance management
5:03
today? I know it's quite a big question
5:06
to ask but in general, how long along the road of maturity are
5:12
we or the oh, Those agencies spoke to further research.
5:16
Well in terms of you know, the state of assurance management I
5:19
would share a few things that I think are relevant and I would
5:23
say looking more broadly beyond the organizations that we spoke
5:27
to that Assurance management is something that is come, there's
5:30
been a rep been around for some time, but what it is, it is
5:36
maturing it is becoming more relevant and in better
5:39
understood and I'll give you an example.
5:42
Why I'm saying that is theirs There's some standards that are
5:45
set around program and project management cobit covid-19 and
5:50
the organization didn't really emphasize Assurance management.
5:54
Very much in previous versions of their standards and
5:57
increasingly. It is being included.
5:59
And if I look at now to your question about the actual
6:03
organizations that we talked to they are on a journey as well
6:07
and they had some form of assurance, managed it, but are
6:10
on a journey of themselves to understand how they can actually
6:12
mature it. Make it more impactful and
6:15
actually more relevant to their organizations, some of the
6:18
organizations that we spoke to had, you know, practices around
6:23
assurance manager, for some time, but still didn't quite
6:26
feel. They had got to the point that
6:27
they wanted to and we're working at, you know, and print making
6:31
improvements and actually we're keen to find see the findings of
6:34
our study to see what else they could do.
6:37
What's interesting there though is, they were on a journey, they
6:39
recognize the value, the importance of assurance manager,
6:42
and we're working. Out yet to do it, to make it
6:44
more mature and more impactful. Okay, thank you.
6:48
Would like to us ask both of you.
6:50
Why does the surance management matter now more than ever in
6:53
delivering successful projects? Perhaps Sarah.
6:56
You'd like to answer that first. I think the overriding ambition
7:01
here is to help projects succeed.
7:05
We all organizations, government, whoever, they are
7:08
Charities, third sector, they're investing money and their vast
7:14
investing money in time, Capital Equipment people, and I think
7:19
it's beholden on us to ensure that we're spending that money
7:23
in the right way in the good way, and we're getting the most
7:29
Two results from the money that we're investing.
7:32
So I think it really comes out. There's a lot of focus,
7:36
especially around projects and programs, especially if these
7:38
Mega ones that that government are undertaking.
7:43
Is, is it worth it? And I think that's the most
7:46
basic question there is and I think Assurance specifically
7:50
helps give that degree of confidence around it that those
7:54
projects programs are still relevant to this.
7:56
Still moving in the right direction.
7:59
Okay. Thank you and Andrew your
8:00
thoughts on that. Well, if you look at it from a
8:04
macro perspective, the one thing that we were seeing in research
8:08
and particularly some of the work that it's all station for
8:10
project management has done is projects.
8:12
Programs portfolios are relevant to society and increasingly
8:17
organizations are becoming more project-based.
8:19
And there's data to support that that there's more of these
8:23
things happening and each. And the other thing that is
8:26
showing is that they're becoming more complex at some of the
8:29
larger and mega projects that the large programs and projects
8:34
you're seeing for instance, in the government's major project
8:38
portfolio in the united their the United Kingdom their their
8:40
billions of pounds like and they go on for years and yet they're
8:43
very complex and if you think of an analogy where you've got a
8:46
simpler unit where work program project where it's small and you
8:52
can kind as a leader, you can see all the moving pieces, you
8:55
know you know the individuals you understand the complexities
8:58
as As these get larger. They just unwieldy others, too
9:01
many moving parts. And so you need something else
9:04
to help you to understand what are the risks challenges and and
9:09
to bring information to you. That helps you actually make
9:13
good decisions. And if you think of the large
9:17
mega programs and projects, they're not even just one
9:20
organization has multiple organizations.
9:21
So there's so many boundaries and so complex.
9:24
And so the relevance becomes these matter to society and
9:28
they're becoming. More complex.
9:29
And assurance manager is one of the tools.
9:32
One of the ways that leaders can actually help to improve the
9:37
success of. These are the impact or value of
9:39
the Investments that they're making in these major programs
9:42
projects and programs. Okay?
9:44
So just to follow up on that, at all to ask a very obvious
9:47
question, but what is its real value for projects and programs
9:50
just to really spell that out? Well, if you can look at on pick
9:55
that from a, I would pick that more risks and the issues.
9:58
Active and what that translates into is.
10:02
We want to avoid things that we can actually, there will become
10:07
problematic costly or somehow limit the, the impact of the
10:12
programs or projects Assurance is a way of looking if it's
10:17
done. Well, it's looking to the
10:19
Future, providing decision makers with information.
10:23
That allows them to take actions to prevent things in the future
10:26
rather than coming along. The fact and say oh, you
10:29
could've should've would've done something different, that's not
10:32
helpful to the leadership. So the real value for programs
10:35
and program for insurance manager.
10:37
Programs and project is helping decision makers, make decisions
10:42
that allow the future of that program project be better than
10:45
it would have been otherwise and there's different things that
10:48
come into the two techniques tools and processes and ways of
10:53
working that help with that, and insurance management is a
10:56
function, is a management tool. Brings those things together.
11:00
Thanks and Sarah anything, you'd like to add to that.
11:04
I think that that's pretty spot-on, actually, I was
11:07
certainly endorse all of that thinking, but I think also that
11:13
increasingly organizations are run projects.
11:18
We all run projects in one way or another from small
11:21
medium-sized Enterprise right up to that the global corporates
11:25
and they all want to know that they're getting the best out of
11:28
what. Putting the money into.
11:30
So I think it's a very reasonable thing to look at and
11:35
to ascertain. And to ask that the question,
11:37
how are we doing? If I can add to that as well,
11:41
and this word of value is actually a loaded term, and
11:47
value is determined by those that are receiving the value.
11:52
And the other thing, too probably highlight is the larger
11:55
more complex of program or project.
11:57
The more interested parties or stakeholders are involved and
12:01
they interpret value in different ways.
12:03
So one of the other things about real value for projects and
12:06
programs is at taking the time to think about What value means,
12:11
two different people, because there isn't one answer to that
12:14
are different stakeholders or groups individuals.
12:17
And if I have, you know, taken analogy of where, or an example,
12:21
rather where you have investment in, say, rail infrastructure.
12:26
And for those that are commuting from one destination to the
12:31
other and they want to do it faster, that's great.
12:34
If you're in the the locality where they're building the
12:37
actual Railway and it's You're going to have it now trains
12:41
going in your backyard. That's not so great, but they
12:43
might find out how you another way that you've got to think
12:46
about what value means individuals and take the time to
12:50
translate that again, and it's not a passive activity.
12:53
So surance management helps with that.
12:56
In the report, you mentioned five Dimensions, I wondered,
13:00
Sarah, could you give us an overview of what those five
13:03
dimensions are and how can these be primed to create an optimized
13:10
Insurance Management, Service? Sure.
13:13
Well, they unpacking them that there are, as we say, in fact,
13:18
you be fair, there are there are many dimensions, but I think the
13:21
real Focus that when we talked to our organizations about their
13:26
focus were on these and certainly it, it underlines our
13:31
own experience around it. But starting if you like from
13:36
the top, the governance. And then Assurance is a good
13:39
governance tool. There's no doubt about that.
13:42
It The decisions that they have to make the kind of ideas and
13:48
investment decision in that they might, well, make going forward
13:52
and about the future of that project itself to.
13:56
So, being able to identify those risks, those those decisions
14:01
that need to be made for the future.
14:05
Certainly one of their the prime five Dimensions.
14:07
It is. It's around governance.
14:10
I think the second one, Might be for example, what we call
14:15
Cadence which is pace and Rhythm.
14:18
So there are a huge variety of assurance, activities out there
14:22
and to be fair reviews Assurance.
14:24
Reviews are probably the best well known but they're only one
14:27
of those. So how regularly do you need to
14:31
undertake these kinds of things? Do you do it calendar.
14:34
Do you do it? Event-based what is it?
14:40
Another a further Dimension is around specialist.
14:44
And this is actually quite interesting because a lot of the
14:47
organization's had different views around Assurance
14:51
management and who is best placed to actually carry that
14:56
out. Now in some mega-projects, what
14:58
you find is that they'll go out to external external
15:02
consultancies, external individuals, but typically, if
15:08
you're you're doing in-house Assurance, then you're taking
15:12
people In individually from within the organization to help
15:17
make that happen and that really leads into the next Dimension
15:23
around integration. So you're trying to connect
15:28
teams within an organization whether that's a temporary
15:32
project organization or the permanent functional
15:35
organization of trying to make those roots and those
15:39
connections all the time. So right across The organization
15:44
but also different functional areas and different senior at
15:49
he's working across organizational boundaries and I
15:53
think for me that's one of the major aspects around Assurance
15:59
is the boundary spanning what we call boundary spanning.
16:02
So being able to go across boundaries being able to whether
16:05
those boundaries are teams, whether they might deep be
16:08
departments, it's around, being able to Aggregate and actually
16:12
integrate the knowledge and experience and expertise in
16:16
areas. And then, of course, the last
16:18
thing is, is the meth the idea around method.
16:20
So what kind of processes do you do to do to push this forward as
16:27
well? So, I'm a great believer that
16:32
you start off with the most appropriate method of assurance
16:36
for your organization. And that might be a very simple
16:39
discrete. Local Health Project health
16:42
check Right up to the mega Assurance practices for major
16:49
for Mega projects around P rep, teens project representative
16:54
teams. But it's always around the
16:57
questions for me and the terms of reference, what are you
17:02
actually trying to achieve with this?
17:03
What is the focus of attention around it?
17:07
So just to recap those five Dimensions governance, Cadence,
17:10
specialism, integration and method.
17:12
Yes, thank you. Just whilst we have been
17:17
explaining, that could you give us an idea of how each of those
17:22
Dimensions can be best primed to create an optimized Assurance
17:26
Management Service. So just maybe a point on each
17:30
would be really helpful to begin to understand how it all ties
17:34
together. So for governance, a lot of it
17:40
is within the research under and I put together a table around
17:46
what if you like his Assurance light and what's a Assurance
17:51
heavy and what might be a very reasonable Midway point for
17:56
organizations. So I would say, for example, for
18:00
governance if Assurance management is perhaps not as
18:04
mature as it could be, then there might be a lack of policy
18:10
standards or directive around this or not an awful lot of
18:14
support for it. Whereas, if it's excessive, then
18:19
you may well find that you've got multiple policies and
18:23
directives and you've got conflict actually, for Assurance
18:27
within a very specific project That's Not Unusual at all, for
18:33
major. Projects that are complex
18:37
Innovative or particularly at risk or high reputation.
18:41
You kind of organizations type tend to want to really bundle a
18:46
lot of assurance in there which can be quite distracting for the
18:50
project team so it's about context and it's about
18:55
understanding what the environment is and what is
18:56
appropriate at that level, another easy one might be well
19:00
be Cadence so perhaps that it If you're talking about very light
19:07
Assurance or immature Assurance, it actually might be rather than
19:12
doing that. I'm not on a regular basis,
19:14
whether that is calendar or event-driven might, it might be
19:17
by exception only. So it might be once in a project
19:21
rather than on a more regular rhythm around it.
19:24
And of course, the opposite of that being over enthusiastic
19:28
might be too much too frequently and not giving enough time to
19:33
actually do the delivery. Because a lot of this work and I
19:38
think it's worth this pointing out it impacts quite
19:42
significantly on Project teams and project delivery or it
19:46
certainly can do and it's always going to be a balancing act
19:50
between taking Focus away from delivery in order to accommodate
19:56
Assurance in whatever form that Assurance might actually take.
20:00
That's a very good point. What about any anything else
20:03
around the kind of integration? Nor specialist modern methods,
20:07
perhaps, well, specialism often can be if it's an immature than
20:13
it's taking individuals, which if you like are available rather
20:18
than which who are appropriate, maybe they, they have you're
20:22
looking for people who have a particular, specialism or a
20:24
particular expertise or experience around the type of
20:28
project that you're actually doing or about the kind of
20:31
particular question, you're asking within that review.
20:37
The other end of that Spectrum May well be that you're buying
20:40
inexpensive and overly qualified individuals.
20:45
Whereas actually might well be better-looking in house so you
20:50
can see that for each of these there's that there's a spectrum
20:52
of what might be a very minimal level of expectation, as opposed
20:57
to what you that you you're getting which might well be
21:00
excessive later on down the line.
21:02
That's very interesting Andrews anything you'd like to add to
21:06
that. There's quite a lot packed into
21:11
really how you kind of get started with these particular
21:17
Dimensions. I think the point that I'd
21:18
really emphasize though is you need to think about these
21:22
different dimensions and situate it.
21:24
Within the context of your organization.
21:27
You can't assume that what's required is in place.
21:32
These are ways of unlocking, the mindset of how you get started,
21:38
and we've provided some questions that and hints at,
21:43
okay? If you're going to think through
21:44
these five Dimensions, what you know really is good look like
21:49
for your organization and each organizations have a slightly
21:53
different answer. So the way you get started is
21:56
you need a strategy or plan for developing and creating a
22:00
surance management capabilities in your organization and think
22:04
about these five Dimensions, be specific, be intentional and
22:09
then work at getting the alignment between what the needs
22:11
of the organization are relative to your capability and are the
22:18
needs of the program or project. I mean, build that out over
22:20
time. So it's about being in, you
22:22
know, intentional and if the insurance management isn't
22:26
working, it's very likely that there's some aspect of these
22:29
five Dimensions that you need to think about.
22:31
And we've given as As many signals us we could based on the
22:34
case studies that we did, that will help you work through
22:38
really getting getting getting started.
22:41
I guess page, it might be an obvious question to ask but who
22:44
should be involved with this right?
22:46
From the very start. What level within the
22:48
organization in terms of, who should be involved if I like,
22:53
when you're asked a question earlier, you said, you know,
22:55
Assurance management as a service and I think that is key.
22:58
It's something that's provided to the governance bodies and
23:02
Visuals. So the question first becomes
23:04
who owns the insurance Management Service there needs
23:07
to be someone who's accountable for that and who should that be?
23:11
Well, there's different answers for that.
23:12
But what I would do the design thinking should be that somebody
23:18
who is there to support the government governance, bodies
23:21
and individual should be made accountable and smaller programs
23:24
and projects. It's going to be fewer
23:26
individuals who can appoint to that.
23:29
So you're going to have a smaller pool to pick from.
23:32
It's You know, somebody in a support office or will be
23:36
somebody support office if you think of that, conceptually a
23:39
project manager or someone like that in larger undertakings you
23:43
might have just one individual that's the job that they are the
23:47
Assurance Management Service lead and in Sarah mentioned P
23:53
reps and in a way that's one aspect of where you've got
23:57
someone who's that's their job, their full-time responsible for
24:00
the. So again it's there's not one
24:01
ounce is And the unpicking that though the governance bodies
24:05
should be the ones that are when they're establishing their
24:08
governance structures. And they're saying, okay, I need
24:11
support the leader, the the sponsor, the executive whoever's
24:15
responsible for the program project should be making sure
24:19
there's a design and accountability for Shirin
24:22
somewhere in there, the bailiwick at.
24:24
So I would start from from that and then build out from there,
24:27
if that makes sense, just through the research you've
24:30
done. Is that what?
24:31
Most organizations. Asians are doing that you
24:34
anecdotally, or do you feel that that Assurance management is
24:38
getting off to the right start generally?
24:42
Assurance management is one of many services that are provided
24:45
to governance bodies. And I, the same point I'd make
24:49
for Assurance amount, we're making boats earns Insurance
24:51
Management in terms of being designed, you would also apply
24:55
to these other services, you know, benefits realization Risk
24:59
Management Center and I, and my Ian based on This research and
25:04
other work that from experiences, it's not soap
25:08
landfill as it could be. So the support services that are
25:13
provided to governance, bodies, and individuals, I don't think
25:16
there's an established. There's some hints that that
25:20
there's some literature and standards around this, but in
25:22
practice, I don't see organizations, being as mindful
25:27
or a structured. So what it tends to be is more
25:29
emergent that it's required. And that there Reasons why you
25:35
have Assurance, sometimes driven through audit functions.
25:38
Etc. So they build it in but it's not
25:40
designed in a way that considers the five Dimensions that were
25:44
pulling forward in this particular report and and a
25:47
strategy and a plan for developing that capability.
25:51
Put in place, I'll make one final point and that is you have
25:55
to put there's a mindset which I think is helpful for me and
25:59
might be for others. And that is, if you think of
26:01
programs and Projects is the organization's of them of
26:05
themselves and we use the word Project based organizations.
26:08
It's something that is Crate created in emerge, within the
26:11
context of other organizational structures.
26:14
And so you're building it up from from nothing in a way.
26:18
And if you're not planned for the organization that you're
26:21
operating, the program project doesn't have all the features
26:24
and services that it needs to have.
26:26
And if you assume that the parent organizations, the other
26:29
things are not have all the things that you need, you'll run
26:31
into. This is often what happens in
26:34
programs and projects. So you're thinking that you and
26:38
I'll use a different service areas, resource manager, you
26:41
think that the HR functions and organizations are going to be
26:44
able to recruit The Specialist at the space that you need for
26:47
your program. It doesn't happen because
26:48
they're not designed for that Assurance.
26:50
Management's, the same thing. So the things that are available
26:53
24 Assurance management organizations for large programs
26:56
and projects, and often smaller ones just is not there.
27:00
So you need to build it. You need to build the king.
27:02
Ability. Do Executives within
27:06
organizations who are running more projects, need to move be
27:10
more cognizant of the fact that they need to have this available
27:14
to project professionals within their organization that there is
27:18
a lack there of support for project professionals.
27:25
I would put it this way and it is, you have very bright capable
27:30
leaders who have come up through the organization, organ their
27:34
organization and have been successful because they are good
27:38
at delivering your in an organizational sense for might
27:43
be operational or Finance. Whatever.
27:45
Very few of these Executives. Have actually managed and
27:49
delivered it. So I'm going to emphasize the
27:51
large and complex programs so they're they're terribly
27:54
capable. They don't have the experience
27:57
and there's data to support that often the seat seen responsible
28:00
owners of the most exact senior Executives have only ever
28:03
implemented one of these in their life and then there and
28:07
they may not have at most this rare for them to why.
28:11
Because they usually takes a while for them to become that
28:13
senior in the organization, at least these large initiatives
28:16
don't come along that often. So the knowledge that
28:20
individuals have is, it may not serve them.
28:24
Well, So the question then is how do you actually help these
28:28
these leaders when they come into these roles?
28:31
And I think we've got a cop, think about combat in a slightly
28:33
different way and not just assume that these Executives
28:36
have the knowledge they have. And if they did have it, Sarah
28:40
and I wouldn't have jobs, we have reviewing for get through
28:43
projects because they wouldn't need us to be coming in to do
28:46
these things and pointing out often time and time again, very
28:49
similar things. Okay?
28:51
Interesting. Sarah, I would like to ask you,
28:54
what kind? And project professionals, learn
28:57
from your research. And what can they put into
29:00
practice in their own work? So really what I'm trying to get
29:03
to with a, the Practical pieces of advice or food for thought
29:07
that listeners can start implementing or at least
29:10
thinking, start thinking about after having read your research,
29:15
which I absolutely advocate. So, anything you'd like to pass
29:19
on Sarah. Certainly I think there are a
29:25
number of areas around here. They're the most obvious one,
29:29
being the people who are actually doing the Assurance
29:32
reviews or any other type of assurance practice as well
29:41
often. I know it sounds very basic and
29:44
tactical but often it's a matter of good listening and actually
29:51
trying Two. Work out in your own mind.
29:55
What you're actually being told around this so often.
30:01
We look at project capability in very much in the technical
30:06
Dimension. Do you know about again, Charles
30:09
critical? You know, critical paths?
30:11
Do you know about your risk assessments and all the rest of
30:13
that? But I think there's something
30:16
very keen here to bring to the fore, which is More social and
30:25
human behavioral aspects as well.
30:27
So, and I bring this out and I offer this mainly because I'm
30:32
involved and I think Andrew is to in a lot of the GM PP reviews
30:36
for UK government, and it is a matter of experience and
30:40
expertise around this. And we both we both under and I
30:43
both have gray hair around this. There's no doubt about it that
30:46
we often know what we're looking for, when we walk into the into
30:49
these situations. But there is this The respect
30:54
which is the the social of the, the behavioral bit as well,
30:58
which is as important because I think one of the things that
31:03
people get very worried about is they see this as compliance and
31:06
policing when actually if you twist the mindset around this
31:11
and reformulate it and reframe it as you know, getting some
31:16
free consultancy here and this is not about slaps on the wrist.
31:21
This is about actually how can we help?
31:23
Pew to get this project in the best possible form.
31:28
So that it it delivers in the best possible way and I think
31:34
reformulating that mindset around, it is actually quite
31:37
important and if there's so that's one thing I would really
31:42
like project your project professionals, you know wherever
31:47
they are in whatever industry sector around the world which
31:51
have a geography, they are. That is the key thing.
31:54
I'd like to take get them to take away.
31:56
I think the other thing is around, how not, just how to do
32:03
it, but also how to receive it. So often organizations will use
32:08
the same set, the same pool of talent to deliver projects but
32:15
also to be assured with her for their own projects.
32:18
So this is not just about being able to assure, this is also
32:22
being able all to receive assurance and I think that those
32:28
two aspects are very important and that's what I'd say for the
32:31
project professionals. And I think also would also play
32:35
to the point that Andrew made earlier, which is about the
32:40
senior levels, the the senior leadership teams the board of
32:44
organizations, to being able to support it and understand why
32:48
it's there and what it can do for them and therefore how to
32:51
take advantage of it in the As possible way, there's not much
32:57
if you're talking about actual development and learning, one of
33:03
the things that that we both recognize is that Assurance is a
33:07
fairly Junior member of project studies and project practices.
33:14
This is kind of a newbie. So we're still finding our way
33:17
there is some literature out there, there's various pieces of
33:20
research around it, but it's actually still quite White new
33:24
and still in very much the development phase, which is why
33:27
it's so exciting as well. So I would vote that kind of be
33:34
my response to your question there.
33:38
Emma. I wasn't expecting you to talk
33:41
about mindset and behavior. So pop those in, for my
33:46
particular culture, then have you got any advice around the
33:50
type of culture that project professional should be seeking
33:53
to create on their teams that serves Assurance well through
33:59
its management? Well, I'd go back to.
34:04
I can't remember who said it and NASA, but he basically said
34:08
Assurance, reviews are for the reviewed and not the reviewers.
34:12
If you basically don't do anything with it, then that
34:16
opportunity is completely lost. And for me, that really talks to
34:22
the organizational culture, as learning and open.
34:26
So this is not, this is not about compliance and as I said
34:31
compliance, Police in this is more about how can we help you
34:34
do this? So for example, in organizations
34:38
I certainly know in government, you do have the formal Assurance
34:43
reviews, but what you also have is what they call critical
34:46
friend reviews, which are a lot less formal in their, in their
34:51
approach. But the the the underlying
34:54
sentiment is the same, this is about support, it's about giving
34:58
you the best possible chance of being successful.
35:01
Oil. And I think trying to create
35:06
that mindset and this is an opportunity to develop and learn
35:09
as well. Which project practitioners
35:13
don't often have when they're doing their day job.
35:15
So this is a period to be able to take out some space, carve
35:19
some space to reflect on, what's going on and why and actually
35:23
how they might change if they think they need to change in
35:26
order to make it better. So that's why I push towards and
35:30
I lean towards the light. Learning and Development side of
35:33
this. Is there anything else you'd
35:36
like to add around the what project professionals can learn
35:40
from your research and put into practice in their own work?
35:45
I want to extend a little bit this idea that you identified
35:50
around culture. And I would highlight a few
35:52
things these five Dimensions that we've identified or
35:55
actually leavers to actually change culture or to reinforce
36:01
the culture that you're looking for with a few added things.
36:04
The culture studies Introduce some other Concepts and Sarah
36:09
mentioned, one of them is you have to have a learning and
36:11
learning Cycles, so that you're taking, you know, you're hot,
36:15
you're nudging, the organization, a direction by
36:17
learning from and so you need to formally build into to to your
36:22
bailiwick of things, something around learning practices.
36:26
So one of the other services which we don't explore in this
36:29
study is Knowledge Management. And it has ways of Taking the
36:36
Assurance management findings and processes, and learn from
36:40
those and build a learning system with into your
36:43
organization. What the shift here though in
36:47
terms of applying, you know, this in practice is thinking
36:50
that actually it's think of an organization.
36:54
All what is the features of an organization's in the service
36:57
that make it operate and build those into those ways of working
37:00
and Assurance management connects with Resource
37:03
Management Knowledge Management risk management procurement, it
37:08
doesn't operate in isolation so when you were thinking about
37:11
these things think about Assurance connects and build
37:14
those connections and that culture in your programs and
37:17
projects so that it actually has the impact that you're you're
37:21
thinking you want you're working toward so project professionals
37:25
that are usually new to the profession or sort of encouraged
37:30
or have roles where they doing some of the more professional
37:33
things of Plans and and, and doing tracking and doing
37:39
reporting as you build your profession.
37:41
This is something else that you should have exposure to.
37:44
You should have some knowledge of, and you should have it built
37:48
into your thinking, because it connects with whatever you are
37:51
doing is a project, professional be the things I've mentioned or
37:54
others. So how does it ask the question?
37:56
How does it fit into my role? And how can I, as a professional
37:59
bring this so that it at that services impactful for this
38:02
particular program project I'm working on and I just Clothes
38:06
off and think the one thing that we want to separate and this has
38:09
been about languages, we have historical language in the
38:13
program project management literature wrong quality
38:16
assurance and I would get I would encourage people to
38:20
separate the idea of quality. Not that what we're doing for
38:23
quality, assurance is wrong, but think of quality assurance in
38:26
different ways, different methods, done by different
38:29
people for different reasons and if you unpick that quality and
38:33
Assurance have different methods, they're done by.
38:35
Different people for different reasons.
38:37
And what we're trying to say is don't equate, the insurance
38:39
management that we've talked about as quality assurance,
38:42
they're not the same thing, let's get to make that
38:45
distinction. My final question to each of you
38:48
is, was there anything surprising or particularly
38:51
interesting that you learnt whilst doing your interviews for
38:55
the research? Sarah?
38:58
I think for myself, it was the range of how organizations is
39:08
these five organizations used Assurance in their approach to
39:12
it as well, all very different, but with underlying particular
39:18
themes and threats. So I'm always interested.
39:23
And that's possibly why I do. The research is out.
39:26
Just interested to understand what is going on out there and
39:30
how it works for organizations or doesn't work for
39:33
organizations as well. But at the same time, give them
39:36
the feedback to help them develop their own, their own
39:39
systems to. But this idea, I think one of
39:43
the things that the struck me while I was really doing the
39:47
undertaking, the research with Andrew, was this idea of the
39:49
feedback loop, because, as well as Assurance being very closely
39:55
connected with, Governance with risk with Benefits realization.
40:01
It's this idea of continuous Improvement and this is why I
40:07
stretched back in one of my last answers to this point about the
40:14
learning organization because in the end, what you're trying to
40:18
do and I go back to this point, it's just the so what question
40:21
you can do this, but what are you actually going to get out of
40:23
it? And the The primary focus for
40:29
assurances around supporting decision-makers, looking at the
40:34
risk perceptions around this when the, the various focuses of
40:39
risk. But it's also trying to improve
40:42
what you're doing and how you're doing it.
40:44
So for me, I think one of the key takeaways was this kind of
40:47
feedback loop for continuous Improvement as the result of
40:51
assurance as much as it is about decision making and and
40:56
Mitigation, thank you Andrew. How about you?
41:01
I would think it's, there's several things, but I want to
41:04
highlight one. One particular point.
41:06
In terms of things that stood out, I know if it was about
41:09
being surprised but it was a moment or created some clarity.
41:14
We were asked by a number of individuals, we started to do
41:17
this research to see if you do good research, could ask
41:20
questions and they, what would they were looking for, though is
41:23
the simple answer for, what is the business case for assurance
41:28
manager? I'm going to, it's going to cost
41:29
me this amount, and I'm going to get this.
41:31
I'm going to avoid these risk and therefore it's all lovely
41:33
and it's very, you know, formulaic.
41:36
That is not the approach that you can take with Assurance
41:39
management. And one of the reasons for that
41:41
is if you're going to measure impact on organizations
41:44
Assurance management is about preventing issues and risks and
41:49
challenges from being realized and if you prevent it you can't
41:52
measure it, right? So you've got to come at it in a
41:54
slightly different way you got to think, okay, the value comes
41:58
therefore, in terms of Of having a capability or capacity to make
42:04
the program and project work well.
42:08
So what does that then look like is not it's why we've shifted to
42:11
more of a capability, kind of a mindset where you're you're
42:15
building this capability for for insurance management as the
42:18
support to Governor's, rather than thinking that if I can, you
42:21
know, do get a spreadsheet out. And I'm going to come up with
42:24
the business case for surance men because that'll lead you
42:26
into the wrong place, the challenge with that for the
42:29
practitioners. Then is that No more complex,
42:32
way of thinking of things and so, you've got to come at it.
42:34
And hopefully, we have hints and tips and approaches within the
42:39
study, which allow you to unpick that complexity and approach it
42:42
from a capability capacity perspective.
42:45
Thank you. I mean, just to remind listeners
42:47
that you can download a report at opm's website which is AP m
42:52
dot org.uk with there. Any final thoughts you wanted to
42:55
show pieces of advice before we sign off, either of you.
43:01
I there is one thing I would actually offer Emma and it was
43:06
conversations. Obviously since the research is
43:09
well since the research was actually published back in back
43:12
in April, a lot of questions have been raised and Andrew and
43:17
I have been with with different forums And discussing this this
43:20
further, but one of the questions which which really
43:25
struck me was how do the project community and Sation try to
43:33
build the case for project Assurance where there hasn't
43:37
been any previously in. There's no kind of history of
43:40
that type of approach within projects and I was just
43:47
reflecting on that and thinking back to if you like my early
43:51
career within projects and programs and and one of the
43:55
things that struck me was actually being able to do it in
43:58
a very low-key discreet ways. Is that as a kind of like a
44:02
project health check? and Andrew quite rightly was
44:07
making the point about building support and understanding for
44:11
this at the senior levels, but I think there's also an
44:15
opportunity here to build support and critical mass and
44:19
Groundswell at the local levels that the practitioner level and
44:24
being able to do that, you know, within the project Community
44:28
itself within the organization or across organizations still
44:33
Will being able to take the Pulse, but but do it at a fairly
44:37
low level way, but still being able to demonstrate.
44:41
If you like to Senior Management that actually this has worked
44:44
and it's of value and it's valuable to consider because
44:49
what it has shown us is So it's about how do you actually start
44:56
this within an organization that has no history around it?
45:00
And I think that was that possibly a point that I would
45:03
like to raise with you now. Thank you.
45:05
Andrew. Any final thoughts or pieces of
45:07
advice? I think the research has
45:10
broader, a clay applications Beyond Assurance management are
45:14
the five Dimensions. We identified were very relevant
45:17
to the you to the or the case studies that we looked at.
45:21
When we consider Surance management.
45:23
I believe that those are irrelevant to any of these
45:25
services that are provided through program project
45:28
management offices, to governance.
45:30
So you're going to find the same pattern, the same dimensions
45:33
that emerge when you think of risk management.
45:38
When you think of benefits, realization Supply Chain
45:41
management, Resource Management, all the things that, you know,
45:45
we provide for the program project manager, offices provide
45:48
to to decision makers and I think these there's a value
45:53
going Beyond just Assurance. So when you're thinking about
45:56
building these capabilities, other surfaces, think about
45:59
these Dimensions. This isn't specific to assurance
46:02
manager. And I think there's a broader
46:04
implication and I'm finding in my own practice.
46:06
I'm applying the end. It's working for me, you know,
46:09
wonder if that's going to others, would find the same
46:12
thing and there isn't a body of knowledge or research that draws
46:14
out the dimensions in the way that we have here.
46:18
Although there's some earlier work that we, you know, we drew
46:21
upon. But I think there's a broader
46:22
implication. And I like, to just started
46:24
challenge the listeners to maybe, think about that and see
46:28
if that helps them in their practice.
46:30
Thank you. Is it just leaves me to say
46:32
thank you for your Insight and your valuable advice in your
46:37
thoughts on this as you say, new and exciting area for the
46:40
profession and yeah, thank you for your time.
46:45
It's been a pleasure to have you.
46:47
And thank you. Thank you, Emma.
46:53
Thanks again to Sarah and Andrew for joining us and to you for
46:56
listening to this episode of the OPM podcast.
46:59
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