Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #116: Peter: Denier-in-Cheif

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#116: Peter: Denier-in-Cheif · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  [music]
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  Hey
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  SPEAKER_01: everyone, Tim Wright here, John Burgess, the Deep Brace Diving Podcast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Still without Terry, it's going to be a while.
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  SPEAKER_01: She is busy doing Les Miserables and she is knocking it out of the park.
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  SPEAKER_01: I went and saw her again, second time.
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  SPEAKER_01: I may even go a third time.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just outstanding.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we're really proud of her and proud of the whole cast.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're just doing a fantastic job.
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  SPEAKER_01: We are doing a series right now on sort of flawed heroes of the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the last two that we looked at,
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  SPEAKER_01: David and Samson, we looked at cautionary tales of what happens when leaders
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  SPEAKER_01: Get more caught up with their own agendas than the agenda of God
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  SPEAKER_01: and how they can diminish themselves.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that while God still uses them and can use them,
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  SPEAKER_01: God does not justify the evil, the hurt, the pain that these flawed leaders can do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we always need to be careful when we look at these stories to distinguish
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  SPEAKER_01: between what God blesses and what is a cautionary tale.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today, we're going to look at the story of another person who failed.
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  SPEAKER_01: Spectacularly, by the way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet his story is different because he is not diminished in the end.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to talk a little bit about what happens for him.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we are,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: talking about, I shouldn't say, of course, we are talking about the story of Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I am calling him the denier in chief.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he was among the inner three of Jesus' circle of 12 disciples.
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  SPEAKER_01: In fact, his name wasn't Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: John, trivia question, what was Peter's name before he was Peter?
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  SPEAKER_00: It was Aramaic for the Rock.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, no, what was his name before Jesus called him Peter?
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  SPEAKER_01: I do not remember.
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  SPEAKER_01: We would call him Simon Peter.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, Simon Peter, right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Simon Peter, yes, because his name was Simon.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus said, I'm going to call you Peter because upon this rock I will...
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, gotcha.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because Peter showed himself to be a remarkable leader.
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  SPEAKER_01: He also showed himself to be an unremarkable leader many times,
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  SPEAKER_01: as was true with all the disciples.
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  SPEAKER_01: And one of the wonderful things about the disciples in
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  SPEAKER_01: the gospel stories is they're shown to be very, very human.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they have a lot of quirks and they have a lot of doubts, just like the rest of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: But God uses them.
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  SPEAKER_01: How is that different than the stories we looked at in the past?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because they keep coming back to Jesus, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: They don't go off on their own.
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  SPEAKER_01: They don't do things to hurt other people.
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  SPEAKER_01: So a couple examples from Peter's life,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then we'll talk about why his failure was so spectacular.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a story where Jesus is walking on the water.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when the disciples see this ghost coming toward them, they're all afraid.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, hey, don't be afraid, it is I.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's Peter,
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  SPEAKER_01: out of all of them,
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  SPEAKER_01: who said,
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  SPEAKER_01: well, if it's really you, tell me to come up out of the boat and come to you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus says, come,
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  SPEAKER_01: and Peter,
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  SPEAKER_01: of all the disciples, is the only one who gets out and he walks on that water.
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  SPEAKER_01: For a few moments,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then his humanness comes in a little bit, and he starts to look around him.
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  SPEAKER_01: He takes his eyes off of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: metaphorically and literally,
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  SPEAKER_01: and he begins to sink,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I think is a great picture of what happens to us when we get absorbed
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  SPEAKER_01: in our circumstances and in ourselves rather than keeping our eyes on Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: We begin to sink.
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  SPEAKER_01: We get overwhelmed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter in that moment was overwhelmed.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what's interesting about Peter here is he doesn't try to swim himself out of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus comes and picks him up by the hand and gets him back in the boat.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we can say, well, Peter, look at what Peter did.
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  SPEAKER_01: He took his eyes off of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: He began to sink.
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  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, there are two people who walked on water.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I was a kid, every year we would go to Bible camp.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was always a spiritual mountaintop for me, always.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was just one of those kids who really loved that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember standing on the shores of Lake Coronas in Paynesville, Minnesota.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, um, it was evening.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was a beautiful, beautiful night.
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was, uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we were about to go into the big tabernacle for our,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh, our evening, uh, worship service.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember standing on the shore thinking, wow, I have so much faith right now.
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  SPEAKER_01: I literally believe I could walk on that Lake.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now ask me if I walked on the Lake.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: How did that work out?
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  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even take a step in.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because I didn't have enough faith.
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  SPEAKER_01: Didn't want to get my shoes wet.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: But Peter did.
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter got in the water.
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  SPEAKER_01: So give him credit.
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  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then about midpoint in Jesus' ministry, Jesus takes his disciples up to Caesarea Philippi.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we've gone through this story before.
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  SPEAKER_01: Caesarea Philippi was sort of the Las Vegas A lot of different gods up there.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was very secular in many ways.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not the kind of place that a Jewish guy should be taking his followers if he wants
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  SPEAKER_01: to teach them about the God of Israel.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's where Jesus takes them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus gives them their midterm exam.
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  SPEAKER_01: He says, who do you say that I am?
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's Peter who says, you are the Christ, the son of the living God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, you've answered correctly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's when he changes his name from Simon to Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he calls him Cephas, which you mentioned the Aramaic.
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  SPEAKER_01: Cephas is the Greek for rock because upon this rock, I'm going to build my church.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's been a lot of debate.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did he mean upon Peter or did he mean upon Peter's confession?
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  SPEAKER_01: The answer is yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: But, however,
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  SPEAKER_01: right after that,
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  SPEAKER_01: Because they don't really understand what the Messiah means,
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  SPEAKER_01: what it means to be the Christ, which is the Greek word for Messiah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus begins to explain to them that to be this Messiah means that he's going to suffer and die.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's not going to be a triumphant Messiah in terms of walking in and using his power
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  SPEAKER_01: to destroy Rome.
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  SPEAKER_01: He will triumph by dying.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the same Peter,
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  SPEAKER_01: who said,
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  SPEAKER_01: you are the Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: you are the Messiah,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Son of the living God, pulls him aside and says, you got to knock it off.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're scaring us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're off message.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're off message, right, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so the same Jesus who said to him,
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  SPEAKER_01: you are the rock upon which I'm going to build the church,
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  SPEAKER_01: then says to him, get behind me, Satan.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's a whiplash.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And here's what he means by that.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's not calling him the devil.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's using the word as adversary or tempter at that point.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's basically saying, Peter, don't tempt me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Don't get in the way of what I'm trying to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you can maybe hear that if you want.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a thought just came to me now that maybe Jesus is concerned
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  SPEAKER_01: because it's tenuous for him knowing what he's going to do and
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  SPEAKER_01: to have his friends start to say, you can't do this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, he doesn't want that temptation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you think maybe that's a little window into Jesus's humanity right at that point?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it is.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it is.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think then when he says, get behind me, he's not speaking evil of him.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's basically saying, get behind me and follow me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Don't try to lead me, Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: Get behind and follow me where I'm going to go.
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  SPEAKER_01: So even though it sounds harsh, it's really this invitation Jesus gives him.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter does, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter does.
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  SPEAKER_01: So then we get to the story where it's the night before Jesus is going
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  SPEAKER_01: to be betrayed and then eventually killed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus tells him that he's going to be betrayed.
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  SPEAKER_01: They all say, well, certainly it's not me.
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  SPEAKER_01: They don't know at that point it's Judas.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter says, well, there's no way.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll die for you before I betray you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, well, For the rooster crows, you'll deny me three times.
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter said, nope, never happened.
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  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, the rest of them say the same thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is Matthew 26, 33-ish, if
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  SPEAKER_01: anybody wants to look it up.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, Jesus is arrested.
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter follows behind to see what's going on.
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  SPEAKER_01: Ah, which is kind of an interesting thought, isn't it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus says, get behind me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then he follows behind.
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  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And while he's standing around the fire,
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  SPEAKER_01: he talks a bit and people can hear his accent and they know he comes from Galilee.
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  SPEAKER_01: And someone says, hey, you're one of his followers.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter said, no idea what you're talking about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Someone else says, you're one of his followers.
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  SPEAKER_01: We can tell by your accent.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure I saw you with him.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Got the wrong guy.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then it happens a third time.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he says, I do not know the man.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or something to that effect.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in one of the Gospels, Jesus actually looks at Peter when Peter says that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter walks out crying.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because he has denied the one that he followed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And remember now,
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  SPEAKER_01: not only Peter, but all the other disciples fled as well for fear of their lives.
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  SPEAKER_01: Except for John.
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  SPEAKER_01: We know that John was at the cross because he decides to take Mary home
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  SPEAKER_01: as his mother at the request of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: So now Peter is with the other disciples.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus has been dead for three days and Peter and the disciples are hiding out in
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  SPEAKER_01: an upper room somewhere because they're afraid that because Jesus was captured
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  SPEAKER_01: and killed, they as his followers will be captured and killed as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus shows up and he's alive.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in one of the stories, he appears to the women first.
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  SPEAKER_01: For all of you who say women should not be pastors, the first preachers were women.
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  SPEAKER_01: The first gospel preachers were women.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, hey,
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  SPEAKER_01: go ahead of me and tell Peter and the other disciples to meet me in such and such
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  SPEAKER_01: a place.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mary Magdalene in one of the other stories sees Jesus first and she and he says,
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  SPEAKER_01: go to Peter and the other disciples.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Jesus singles out Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because Jesus had to know, because he looked at him, he had to know how crushed Peter was.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now this is a little bit of the difference between the stories we looked at
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  SPEAKER_01: the last two weeks of David and Samson, who both repented.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in this situation, Peter is absolutely crushed by what he did.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's hiding out.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus shows up in the upper room, and there's this joyful reunion.
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  SPEAKER_01: A few days later, Peter's out fishing, and they see Jesus sitting on the shore.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is in John's Gospel now.
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  SPEAKER_01: They see Jesus sitting on the shore,
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  SPEAKER_01: and Peter jumps into the water and swims to him, and Jesus is making breakfast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And at some point, Jesus says to Peter, Peter, do you love me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus said, I do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or Peter says, I do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus says again, do you love me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter says, I do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then Jesus says a third time, do you love me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And he uses a different word for love each time, but I won't go into that in this one.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter said, this is now just sort of heartbroken.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, why did Jesus ask him three times?
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  SPEAKER_01: John, would you like to give us the answer to that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that is three times ones for each of the denials.
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  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, Jesus restores him.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, again, the difference between the first two stories and this story is fairly significant.
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  SPEAKER_01: You have Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: first of all, you've got King David who raped a woman and then murdered her husband.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you have Samson who just continually disobeyed God over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_01: That was not the case with Peter.
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter was not out intentionally trying to go against Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter was a faithful follower who made some mistakes.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was a flawed man who made some mistakes, did some really good things, but made some mistakes.
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  SPEAKER_01: But he always followed behind Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus comes along and restores him.
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  SPEAKER_01: And rather than being diminished, Peter ends up becoming a leader of the early Christian church.
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  SPEAKER_01: Still had his flaws, by the way.
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  SPEAKER_01: We know that Peter,
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  SPEAKER_01: as the church is being started,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a big controversy over whether
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  SPEAKER_01: or not non-Jewish people should be circumcised.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter,
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  SPEAKER_01: because of pressure,
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  SPEAKER_01: decides to side with the Jewish people and say, yeah, they should be circumcised.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he and Paul have quite a discussion about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Peter's on the wrong side of that issue.
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  SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless,
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  SPEAKER_01: he comes around because he is not in it for himself like our other two stories.
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  SPEAKER_01: He really is seeking Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: He just gets it wrong sometimes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus uses him and eventually we know from history,
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  SPEAKER_01: we don't know this from the Bible,
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  SPEAKER_01: but we know from history that very possibly Peter ended up being crucified.
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  SPEAKER_01: For his faith in Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: And rather than being crucified the way Jesus was,
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  SPEAKER_01: he was crucified upside down because he didn't want to be crucified the way
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  SPEAKER_01: that Jesus was.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's some stories that said when he spoke to his wife,
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  SPEAKER_01: he cried out to her from the cross, remember Christ, remember Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: So this is a story that we see a different sort of attitude And positioned toward God, i.e.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus in this story, then we saw with David and with Samson.
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  SPEAKER_01: Samson belligerently just kept disobeying God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And kind of with his last breath says, you know what, I think I got it wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he did get it wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: David follows God through much of his life and then does some really horrific things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And becomes self-centered.
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  SPEAKER_01: And is never the same kind of guy.
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  SPEAKER_01: Peter, on the other hand, isn't doing these things out of selfishness.
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess you could say in a way he denies Jesus because he wants to save his skin,
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  SPEAKER_01: but they all did.
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  SPEAKER_01: But he didn't kill anybody.
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  SPEAKER_01: He didn't rape anybody like David did.
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  SPEAKER_01: He just sort of was caught.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus understood that and saw the sorrow because immediately Peter cries.
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  SPEAKER_01: He knows immediately that he has really done something wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: Where David had to be confronted by a prophet and where Samson had to be brought to
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  SPEAKER_01: the point where he had no other option than to trust God again.
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  SPEAKER_01: God still used both of them.
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  SPEAKER_01: They were diminished.
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  SPEAKER_01: In Peter's case, his heart was always in the right place.
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  SPEAKER_01: And God was able to use him and build the church through him, even though he was flawed.
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  SPEAKER_01: So David serves and then I'll give you a chance, John, to respond.
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  SPEAKER_01: David serves as an example of how God uses only flawed people.
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  SPEAKER_01: But God does not excuse flawed people who use their leadership,
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  SPEAKER_01: their positions, their talents and gifts in self-centered ways to hurt other people.
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  SPEAKER_01: And to cause catastrophe in the lives of other people.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's not what God is about.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Peter is an example of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's just a guy who gets it right,
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  SPEAKER_01: he gets it wrong,
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  SPEAKER_01: but he keeps his eyes on Jesus and Jesus is able to use him to great effect in spite
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  SPEAKER_01: of his flaws.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I saw the flaws as we were going back through the story as being actually
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: a little bit more similar,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I thought,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: to the other two in that Peter makes a pronouncement to Jesus that he's not going
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: to deny him, sort of a promise to his face, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then does deny him.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Given how the disciples ended up dying, I mean,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: they definitely lived for their faith and what they believed was true about Jesus to
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: the end, regardless of the horrific deaths that they faced.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think at that point he was acting out of self-interest.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was Some people might say it was embarrassment, but I think, you know, the hunt was on.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he was saving his own skin.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think at the end we see this.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we see to your point, Tim, not an excusal of Peter's actions.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: There were some circumstances that took place as a result of those actions
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: that were not good for Peter.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly the
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: The drama and the personal sort of torment he was in because of it was not insignificant.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then you see Jesus coming back at the end and through grace sort
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: of restoring him in a beautiful way.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because he could have ended the story with, I forgive you, let's not worry about it, let's work.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not what he did.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: He really drove home, you're mine.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Peter needed that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is kind of the difference in the story.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as Peter denies Jesus, he knows what he's done and he's broken by it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see that in David until he's confronted by the prophet.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: You don't really even see it in Samson until he gets to the very end of his life
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: and he kind of realizes, well, this is my only option.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So God, you know, use me and let me kill all these people.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Peter has a very different response to his actions immediately.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Grief, shame, guilt.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm guessing the part of the reason why he was so upset
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: when Jesus asked him three times, do you love me?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: He probably felt like, man, I really let him down, didn't I?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: I really hurt him.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus restores him and uses him.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Peter wasn't, yes,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: denying Jesus was a big deal,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: but Peter, he didn't do something to hurt other people.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't flaunt his leadership the way that David did or abused it the way
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: that Samson did and abused it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Peter acted very humanly, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us in Peter's position would say, I might've done the same thing.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to think I wouldn't, but I might have done the same thing.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: nobody is really hurt by that except for Jesus and Peter.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's no collateral damage the way there is with David's actions and the way
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: that there is with Samson's actions.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's not to minimize what he did, and Jesus didn't minimize it.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus really offered him three words of grace to overcome those three words of denial.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: But he wasn't using his power to hurt other people.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't doing something evil.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's not to justify, but it's a different kind of story than those first two.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a different kind of response, I think, to him.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: As near as we can tell.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we said this,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: but Jesus said,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times that rooster crows.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just devastating to hear that.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I went down the road.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I told you I would not go down.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now here I am.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so sorry that I'm here.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: The rock turned to sand.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus had to re-rock him.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the difference.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was immediate.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when we look at a story like that,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think the story of Peter is a story that most of us can relate to.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think the stories of David and Samson Our cautionary tales about leadership
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: the responsibility of leadership.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in 2026, we need both of those stories.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: We need to understand what happens when leaders
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: do evil things or hurtful things,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: that there are consequences to that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we also need to remember that we as individual Christians You know,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes we'll do things out in the moment that we're embarrassed about or ashamed
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: about, but that doesn't disqualify us from being children of God.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe those first two, that's a great point.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we should just end right there, but of course I'm not going to.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe those first two you said are cautionary tales about leadership.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: It occurs to me after working through these issues with you
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: that they are also cautionary tales of followership.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the things that we say about people and expect about people and the things
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: that we're willing to sort of overlook about people that may be resting on,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know, sort of a quicksand of bad theology.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: If we're evaluating leaders,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: the first thing we should not say is, well, God uses flawed people.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing we should say is, do their values align with the values of God?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: If we're voting for people, we want to be God people, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do their values align with what God desires for the world?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first question we should be asking.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Whether they are people of faith or not,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: do their values align with what God wants with the world?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not God uses flawed people, but do their values align?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do they care for the poor and the oppressed and the marginalized and the least of these?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Bells are the values that God cares about over and over again.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to be uncomfortable for people,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: but if you read your scriptures,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to find God always stands against the powerful over against the weak
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: and the vulnerable.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean God doesn't like powerful people.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: It means that God will not stand with powerful people if they use their power
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: to abuse others and take advantage of them and leave out the least of these.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the questions that we should be asking.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, he's flawed, but God uses flawed people.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's do the values of these leaders,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're Christian leaders,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're church leaders,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're political leaders,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: do they align with the values That God has when God thinks about what
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: the world should look like.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that world is a world of grace and compassion and love for the least of these.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And using power to serve, not to lord it over others.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the kinds of people that God wants to use.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to end it there.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well done, Jim.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And next week, it's going to be our really, it's going to be a fun discussion.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: A Lutheran and a Catholic walk into a podcast
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: and we're going to see what happens next week.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everyone for listening.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Listen again next week.