Latest / Inner Work With MaryAnn Walker: Life Coach for People Pleasers / 189: Scapegoat vs Golden Child: How Family Role Shape Identity and People Pleasing With Elle Boone

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189: Scapegoat vs Golden Child: How Family Role Shape Identity and People Pleasing With Elle Boone · Inner Work With MaryAnn Walker: Life Coach for People Pleasers

• 0:21
  MaryAnn Walker: Well, hello and welcome back.
• 0:23
  MaryAnn Walker: This is Inner Work with MaryAnn Walker, where I help recovering people, pleasers, identify the roles that are holding them back.
• 0:30
  MaryAnn Walker: And as part of that, I want to welcome Elle Boone to the show.
• 0:33
  MaryAnn Walker: So welcome Elle.
• 0:34
  MaryAnn Walker: So happy to have you.
• 0:35
  Elle Boone: Thank you so much.
• 0:37
  Elle Boone: I'm so happy to be here.
• 0:38
  Elle Boone: I'm very, very excited to have this conversation with you today, Marianne.
• 0:41
  Elle Boone: Thank you for inviting me.
• 0:42
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 0:43
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 0:43
  MaryAnn Walker: And L is launching a brand new podcast that really works with a very specific role that holds a lot of people back.
• 0:50
  MaryAnn Walker: Do you wanna tell us a bit about that?
• 0:52
  Elle Boone: Yes, so the title of the show, which will launch somewhere between the end, uh, sorry, the middle and the end of October, is titled The Family Scapegoat Chronicles.
• 1:03
  Elle Boone: And.
• 1:04
  Elle Boone: The name Scape Family Scapegoat, um, would indicate that the host is probably from that tribe of family scapegoats.
• 1:12
  Elle Boone: Um, so yes, I have a lot of experience on that topic and I wanted to create something that didn't exist when I figured out that I was the family scapegoat and all the dynamics that.
• 1:25
  Elle Boone: Would allow people not just to learn more about it, but also to come on the show and express their feelings about it and share their story so that others can be heard and seen and validated and, and find community as well.
• 1:38
  Elle Boone: So I'm excited about that.
• 1:41
  Elle Boone: Yes, I, I hope that many come and, and, and get benefit and value out of it.
• 1:47
  Elle Boone: For sure.
• 1:48
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 1:49
  MaryAnn Walker: So for those that are unfamiliar with the term scapegoat, can you tell us a bit about what that looks like, especially in a family dynamic?
• 1:55
  Elle Boone: Yes, yes.
• 1:56
  Elle Boone: So typically in a family dynamic, it's, I, I wanna preface it by saying a dysfunctional family dynamic because it is, it's very much, um, a dysfunction.
• 2:09
  Elle Boone: And the scapegoat role is one that is assigned, um, to a child within a family system, and it can be out of a dysfunctional family system.
• 2:23
  Elle Boone: A narcissistic family system or a combination of the two, if that makes sense.
• 2:29
  Elle Boone: Um, so one person is singled out to carry the blame and the shame of the family, and not just the current generation, but previous generations as well.
• 2:40
  Elle Boone: It's passed down a little bit like China
• 2:43
  MaryAnn Walker: Hmm.
• 2:43
  Elle Boone: family heirloom.
• 2:45
  Elle Boone: Um, and so the.
• 2:48
  Elle Boone: The dysfunction of the family is projected on the family scapegoat,
• 2:52
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 2:53
  Elle Boone: and that person is carrying the wounds of, of the, the family, um, so that the people who are doing the projection don't have to deal with the issues
• 3:04
  MaryAnn Walker: That just sounds like such a huge burden.
• 3:06
  MaryAnn Walker: I mean, to carry the blame and the shame of the family.
• 3:09
  MaryAnn Walker: Um, can you give us an example of what that might look like?
• 3:12
  MaryAnn Walker: I'm sure it's probably something that's harder to identify when you are the one being scapegoated.
• 3:17
  Elle Boone: Yeah, the one thing that comes to mind in terms of blame,'cause there are three, three components that are really important.
• 3:23
  Elle Boone: There's blame, shame, and rejection.
• 3:25
  Elle Boone: So the blame might look like everything is your fault.
• 3:30
  Elle Boone: In the family dynamic, I used to say.
• 3:33
  Elle Boone: When I, before I started to figure this out, I was living in New York when nine 11 happened, and I used to joke that it was my fault.
• 3:40
  Elle Boone: My family blamed me for that because I was living there.
• 3:43
  Elle Boone: So all jokes aside, the blame and the shame coupled with the rejection can really wear down the scapegoat, which is the point.
• 3:54
  Elle Boone: If the scapegoat is contained.
• 3:57
  Elle Boone: Minimized, reduced, then they're not so much of a threat as they are if they are free to be the truth teller that they are.
• 4:07
  Elle Boone: And I will say too, that the person who's chosen to be the scapegoat is typically the empath, the highly sensitive person, the truth teller, the one who's not afraid to call out what's happening in the fam, the family dynamic.
• 4:22
  Elle Boone: So it's, targeted.
• 4:25
  Elle Boone: And sometimes it's deliberate and conscious and sometimes it's not conscious.
• 4:30
  Elle Boone: The family can be in a, state of denial in terms of the dysfunction, and not be fully conscious of what they're doing and how they're behaving.
• 4:39
  Elle Boone: So that adds another layer.
• 4:41
  Elle Boone: But the rejection, I think is, at least for me, has been the hardest part.
• 4:46
  Elle Boone: There is something called.
• 4:47
  Elle Boone: Family mobbing.
• 4:48
  Elle Boone: Have you heard that term before?
• 4:50
  Elle Boone: No,
• 4:51
  MaryAnn Walker: family mopping?
• 4:52
  Elle Boone: So family mobbing, it's no picnic.
• 4:54
  Elle Boone: Let me just say that.
• 4:56
  Elle Boone: It's when the dysfunctional family unit gangs up against the chosen scapegoat.
• 5:04
  Elle Boone: So for example, if something goes wrong in the family, the scapegoat person who is blamed for that issue or event, everybody comes together and it's the narcissist at the head of, those events that rallies the siblings, for example,, and pits the group against the scapegoat.
• 5:27
  Elle Boone: So it creates this really isolating, lonely, dark sensation for the scapegoat that's very confusing.
• 5:37
  Elle Boone: And it takes time to figure this out.
• 5:39
  Elle Boone: And so again, I'm really glad you're doing this episode because there isn't enough content out there on this topic, in my opinion, being a scapegoat, it took a while for me to figure it out.
• 5:51
  Elle Boone: I'm only five years into my healing, and i'm still at the beginning in many ways to recover from this dynamic because there's so much isolation that comes out of, the family mobbing, you don't have any allies.
• 6:06
  Elle Boone: Your siblings become your enemies on purpose.
• 6:11
  Elle Boone: And so where do you go?
• 6:13
  Elle Boone: And when you go to someone in the family, you're typically being gaslighted with your concerns.
• 6:19
  Elle Boone: That's not what they said.
• 6:20
  Elle Boone: I didn't say that.
• 6:21
  Elle Boone: That's not true.
• 6:22
  Elle Boone: You're making things up.
• 6:24
  Elle Boone: You are too dramatic.
• 6:26
  Elle Boone: Why are you so sensitive?
• 6:28
  Elle Boone: These are clues for anyone listening.
• 6:31
  Elle Boone: If you've been told those things in your family dynamic, chances are you are probably the scapegoat in the family.
• 6:38
  MaryAnn Walker: So when you're being told those things that, oh no, you're misremembering, you're being too sensitive, are the other family members that are participating in it, is this something that they're consciously doing is trying to blame and shame, or how does that show up?
• 6:52
  Elle Boone: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 6:54
  Elle Boone: I think it's yes and no.
• 6:55
  Elle Boone: I think that when it starts, when this dysfunction starts early on, when the kids are really young, I think as a safety and coping mechanism, the siblings will side with the parent because it's safer.
• 7:11
  Elle Boone: If you side with the scapegoat, you could be scapegoated too.
• 7:15
  Elle Boone: And nobody wants to be scapegoated.
• 7:18
  Elle Boone: So I think it's a little bit of both.
• 7:19
  Elle Boone: And a lot of us are in this denial state where we just don't see things the way they really are.
• 7:26
  Elle Boone: So we come up with coping mechanisms and catchphrases that minimize the situation and deflect so that we don't have to really dig in and do the work and confront the pain.
• 7:39
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 7:40
  MaryAnn Walker: And that's fascinating'cause as you describe it that way, it has me thinking that yes, I can see how this could be, you know, with a narcissistic parent, but also it sounds like a significant amount of emotional immaturity.
• 7:51
  MaryAnn Walker: And as you talk about how it's usually the highly sensitive and the empathic people that are scapegoated, I almost wonder if it's because they're more aware of emotions and aware of everybody else's emotions and maybe those that are less emotionally mature.
• 8:05
  MaryAnn Walker: It's, it's always easier to blame somebody else than to take accountability, isn't it?
• 8:09
  Elle Boone: Yes.
• 8:10
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 8:11
  Elle Boone: Always.
• 8:11
  Elle Boone: Yes, always.
• 8:13
  Elle Boone: Um, and, and I wanna say too that the, the scapegoat role can rotate in the family.
• 8:19
  Elle Boone: So.
• 8:20
  Elle Boone: The golden child could become the scapegoat and vice versa.
• 8:24
  Elle Boone: So I've been in, in both roles, uh, this
• 8:27
  MaryAnn Walker: confusing.
• 8:28
  MaryAnn Walker: Can you tell more about that?
• 8:30
  MaryAnn Walker: So, first, describe the golden Child and the scapegoat, and what are the differences in those roles.
• 8:35
  MaryAnn Walker: But then I really wanna hear how they can switch.
• 8:37
  MaryAnn Walker: That's
• 8:37
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 8:38
  Elle Boone: How they're reassigned.
• 8:39
  Elle Boone: Mm-hmm.
• 8:40
  Elle Boone: Yes.
• 8:41
  Elle Boone: So the golden child is the one who is more enmeshed with the narcissistic.
• 8:48
  Elle Boone: I'm gonna use the narcissistic dynamic in this explanation because while you can be scapegoated in, in a dysfunctional family that doesn't have the narcissistic element.
• 9:00
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 9:00
  Elle Boone: It's more common in my experience to have both the narcissism and the dysfunction.
• 9:07
  Elle Boone: So the, the narcissist also assigns the golden child, the one who's gonna be more compliant, who's more like them, who's not going to resist the programming as I call it.
• 9:20
  Elle Boone: And it's a very unhealthy dynamic and it can turn into such enmeshment that I've heard it called, emotional incest, which is big, a big phrase.
• 9:31
  Elle Boone: Um, yeah.
• 9:33
  Elle Boone: So, but let's say the scapegoat does something wonderful and gets more attention for any length of time.
• 9:44
  Elle Boone: They can be sort of reassigned as the golden child.
• 9:48
  Elle Boone: In that moment and then someone else has to become the scapegoat.
• 9:52
  Elle Boone: They have to have a scapegoat in the system so those two roles can switch.
• 9:57
  Elle Boone: In my experience, it was temporary.
• 10:00
  Elle Boone: So back to the scapegoat role, I went and because of my personality, I'm sensitive, but I'm also very vocal and a truth teller and I call it the way I see it, and that rocks the boat.
• 10:14
  Elle Boone: So hence the family mobbing.
• 10:16
  Elle Boone: Also, the silent treatment is a, another dynamic in this dysfunction, where if you do something.
• 10:26
  Elle Boone: That they think is wrong or not in compliance with the family dysfunctional rules, then you can be given the silent treatment and stonewalled, which furthers the isolation and rejection emotions in the scapegoat and can later show up, as, in my case, as complex PTSD.
• 10:48
  Elle Boone: It's unresolved unprocessed trauma.
• 10:51
  Elle Boone: Emotions and they show up.
• 10:54
  Elle Boone: We filter every experience through all of our past experiences.
• 10:59
  Elle Boone: So, yeah, so the way I figured this out, it was just before the pandemic, and I talk about this in my first episode that we'll launch in October.
• 11:10
  Elle Boone: I'm so excited.
• 11:11
  Elle Boone: Someone I was working with suggested that I look at my patterns and behaviors.
• 11:19
  Elle Boone: And I said, what, why, what's wrong with my patterns?
• 11:24
  Elle Boone: And he said, well, I hear your stories and I feel like the patterns that you've developed that you're not really aware of are coping mechanisms and you're filtering life through them.
• 11:37
  Elle Boone: So let's say you get an opportunity, in your career and in that opportunity and that experience, something triggers inside of you and you're operating with your behavior through that trigger and it ruins the opportunity because you're reading it wrong.
• 11:58
  Elle Boone: So, yeah, so IW that was when I was like, okay, and a few other things took place and I thought, he's right.
• 12:05
  Elle Boone: I need to look at my patterns.
• 12:07
  Elle Boone: And that's one of the tips that I wanna give at the end when we, when we talk about tips and resources, because if you can, and people pleasing too, um, is, is a big pattern of being scapegoated,
• 12:20
  MaryAnn Walker: I'm also really curious, like I found it so interesting as you talked about how you could switch back and forth and how you personally, that was your experience between being scapegoated and being the golden child and.
• 12:31
  MaryAnn Walker: Number one, how disorienting, but also the sporadic reinforcement of hoping to be the golden child and thinking, well, if I can just do the right thing, I can totally see how that would lead into those people pleasing tendencies, because you want to not be scapegoated anymore.
• 12:47
  MaryAnn Walker: You want to be the golden child.
• 12:49
  MaryAnn Walker: You want to be the special one, but knowing that you're gonna get knocked off of that role at any moment, that must be extremely upsetting to the nervous system.
• 12:58
  MaryAnn Walker: And, and speaking to that, I'm wondering if you can share with us some of the signs and symptoms, of being scapegoated.
• 13:04
  MaryAnn Walker: You said some of the signs and symptoms are, it's always your fault.
• 13:08
  MaryAnn Walker: Like you joked about that nine 11 was your fault.
• 13:10
  MaryAnn Walker: So even things not related to you at all, you kind of just knew it was always gonna be your fault.
• 13:14
  MaryAnn Walker: Silent treatment, stonewalling.
• 13:18
  MaryAnn Walker: What are some of the other symptoms and, and signs of scapegoating?
• 13:22
  Elle Boone: In, in terms of trying to figure out if you've been scapegoated in your family.
• 13:26
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 13:26
  MaryAnn Walker: I guess I'm really curious, like, how did you, how did you put it together?
• 13:30
  MaryAnn Walker: Like what, what brought it into your awareness?
• 13:32
  MaryAnn Walker: It sounds like it's something that it's often hard to see that you're experiencing it, so how did you figure it out?
• 13:38
  Elle Boone: So it was, there were th two other events that took place in terms of identifying my own behaviors and some of that included, anxiety and people pleasing.
• 13:51
  MaryAnn Walker: Hmm.
• 13:52
  Elle Boone: Um, and when my, friend suggested that I start looking at my patterns.
• 13:55
  Elle Boone: I went to YouTube and I started looking up as many videos and books that I could find, on the subject of narcissism, family dysfunction, and all of those things.
• 14:07
  Elle Boone: And that's when I started to identify with, oh, silent treatment.
• 14:12
  Elle Boone: That's, oh, gaslighting.
• 14:14
  Elle Boone: There's a whole list of, nomenclature is, is a term I use, like it's the vocabulary for this.
• 14:21
  Elle Boone: So I started looking into all of those different elements in, that dysfunction, and first identified with the experiences that I had under that lens.
• 14:34
  Elle Boone: And then just looking for, information.
• 14:37
  Elle Boone: And when I finally got to the point where I, found what I was looking for, it was about two or three years in from that first event and I was on.
• 14:48
  Elle Boone: During the pandemic when we all had a lot of time, I was on a Facebook, group page about narcissism, I'm sure, and I was reading comments.
• 14:58
  Elle Boone: And in the comments someone suggested a book
• 15:01
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 15:02
  Elle Boone: that was written by Rebecca c Mandeville.
• 15:07
  Elle Boone: This is one of my, tips at the end for references and resources.
• 15:11
  Elle Boone: I wanna get the name of the book right, so I have to look it up.
• 15:14
  Elle Boone: Blamed, shamed, and Reject.
• 15:17
  Elle Boone: No, rejected, blamed and Shamed.
• 15:21
  Elle Boone: I sometimes get those backwards.
• 15:22
  Elle Boone: I'm so sorry.
• 15:24
  MaryAnn Walker: Oh, it's just fine.
• 15:25
  MaryAnn Walker: And I'll link that in the show notes for everybody too.
• 15:28
  Elle Boone: Rejected, shamed, and Blamed.
• 15:29
  Elle Boone: Yes.
• 15:30
  Elle Boone: So she wrote this book.
• 15:31
  Elle Boone: She is a licensed family therapist and a life coach, and she wrote this book that describes my entire experience
• 15:42
  MaryAnn Walker: Wow.
• 15:43
  Elle Boone: on family scapegoating.
• 15:44
  Elle Boone: She's coined the term family scapegoating abuse and has a peer review study out and another one in the making, which is important because that gives this.
• 15:55
  Elle Boone: Dynamic, more exposure and more people, with opportunities to learn about what they might have been through.
• 16:02
  Elle Boone: Because for me it was, I just walked around with a chip on my shoulder and this anxiety thinking, oh, this is just who I am.
• 16:09
  Elle Boone: No, it's, it was my programming and my conditioning and my upbringing.
• 16:13
  Elle Boone: So once I got the vocabulary down, I knew what to look for.
• 16:19
  Elle Boone: Not just in information, but also my behaviors and my patterns, so I could start to break those cycles within my own family.
• 16:27
  Elle Boone: Yeah, Did that answer your question?
• 16:30
  MaryAnn Walker: that does answer my question beautifully.
• 16:32
  MaryAnn Walker: And I'm also curious, I'm going back again to the switching back and forth between the scapegoat and the golden child.
• 16:39
  MaryAnn Walker: If, from your experience, was that often, like, I wonder if that was even weaponized, like comparison with why can't you be like them?
• 16:47
  MaryAnn Walker: Is that another symptom of being scapegoated, or what was your experience there?
• 16:51
  Elle Boone: It can be, yes.
• 16:52
  Elle Boone: It wasn't my experience.
• 16:54
  Elle Boone: Um, I will say though, that.
• 16:57
  Elle Boone: Especially in the narcissistic dynamic, the narcissist is very interested in and protective of image, the family
• 17:06
  MaryAnn Walker: Hmm.
• 17:08
  Elle Boone: And I thought about this earlier today in, anticipation of meeting with you, and I feel like in, my upbringing there was a a lot of lack financially.
• 17:19
  Elle Boone: And, and I, so maybe that's why I didn't experience it.
• 17:22
  Elle Boone: And I feel like families that are more affluent might have more to be concerned about in terms of image.
• 17:31
  Elle Boone: So, yeah, that's, that was my take earlier today.
• 17:34
  Elle Boone: When I thought about it, there we didn't have a lot to be concerned about in terms of public facing personas.
• 17:40
  Elle Boone: So, So, no.
• 17:42
  Elle Boone: Um, and the, and when the roles switched, it wasn't necessarily scapegoat to golden child and back.
• 17:50
  Elle Boone: Sometimes it's the scapegoat to the lost child.
• 17:56
  Elle Boone: Which is another element, gets if the scapegoat leaves and goes, no contact.
• 18:02
  Elle Boone: That's a term that's really popular right now.
• 18:05
  Elle Boone: Um, someone else has to take that role on.
• 18:10
  Elle Boone: So it can be reassigned in that way to another sibling.
• 18:14
  Elle Boone: And it's not typically the golden child in my experience.
• 18:17
  Elle Boone: It's the lost child or, someone else in the system that's, not already been the golden child.
• 18:23
  Elle Boone: Because that rearing from my experience, started at a very young age.
• 18:27
  Elle Boone: The golden child is conditioned and programmed, from a very, very young age, and I see it more with a mother and son
• 18:35
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 18:36
  Elle Boone: than a mother and daughter dynamic in terms of the golden child, so, mm-hmm.
• 18:43
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 18:43
  MaryAnn Walker: can you kind of give us a little bit more information about, who is the lost child?
• 18:47
  MaryAnn Walker: Like how would you describe the lost child?
• 18:50
  Elle Boone: Uh, it's in my experience, it's, it's someone who's been, sort of ignored in the sense that they weren't given opportunities that other kids are dynamic in that sy that system.
• 19:05
  Elle Boone: Maybe they didn't excel in school as much.
• 19:07
  Elle Boone: So they just kind of get washed into the background.
• 19:11
  Elle Boone: Um, and not, given what, what, definitely not what they needed for sure.
• 19:16
  Elle Boone: So they just kind of become quiet and voiceless.
• 19:21
  Elle Boone: My experience.
• 19:22
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 19:23
  MaryAnn Walker: Okay, and so tell me if I'm understanding this correctly.
• 19:26
  MaryAnn Walker: So then both the golden child and the scapegoat are getting a lot of attention, though different kinds of attention.
• 19:32
  MaryAnn Walker: And then the lost child is, the one that's kind of ignored and neglected.
• 19:37
  MaryAnn Walker: And then those roles kind of can rotate and shift around depending on.
• 19:40
  Elle Boone: Mm-hmm.
• 19:41
  MaryAnn Walker: What is gonna put forth the best image in the moment it sounds like.
• 19:45
  Elle Boone: And protect the denial system that is such, has such a stronghold on especially the, the dysfunctional families.
• 19:53
  Elle Boone: And what I mean by dysfunction is unresolved trauma of their own.
• 19:58
  Elle Boone: It can be alcoholism, drug addiction.
• 20:00
  Elle Boone: All of those things are under that dysfunctional umbrella.
• 20:03
  Elle Boone: When I say dysfunctional.
• 20:05
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 20:06
  Elle Boone: So there's, there's a lot of.
• 20:08
  Elle Boone: I think in every role, including the narcissist and maybe especially a lot of unprocessed trauma.
• 20:16
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah, sounds like it.
• 20:18
  Elle Boone: There are a couple of other things that I have in my notes that in terms of people trying to identify whether they've been scapegoated, That I think are important.
• 20:29
  Elle Boone: If I can just take a quick glance here.
• 20:32
  Elle Boone: Okay.
• 20:32
  Elle Boone: So here, here are a few things.
• 20:34
  Elle Boone: That are really common, that a scapegoat, a family scapegoat can experience.
• 20:40
  Elle Boone: They're, like I said earlier, they're blamed for everything.
• 20:43
  Elle Boone: When anything goes wrong, it's their fault.
• 20:47
  Elle Boone: Ironically, your successes are minimized.
• 20:51
  Elle Boone: they're ignored or downplayed.
• 20:54
  Elle Boone: They don't wanna put you on a pedestal.
• 20:56
  Elle Boone: That role is taken in this movie.
• 21:00
  Elle Boone: Right.
• 21:01
  Elle Boone: And I'll say too that, you know, once you start to identify the theatrics, for lack of better term, in, in the behaviors from the dysfunctional family members to onto the scapegoat, you'll stop buying tickets to the show.
• 21:19
  Elle Boone: Once you see the performative and the cosmetics of it.
• 21:24
  Elle Boone: So being criticized is another, you know, sort of backhanded way of keeping, keeping you in your place, so to speak.
• 21:32
  Elle Boone: And the same rules don't apply to every family member.
• 21:36
  Elle Boone: So the golden child gets special treatment, the scapegoat gets the silent treatment.
• 21:42
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 21:44
  Elle Boone: you're kind of a dumping ground.
• 21:46
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 21:46
  MaryAnn Walker: And'cause as you list off those things, so just to kind of recap those qualities that you shared, it has me thinking that we've been talking about this in the family dynamic, but really these symptoms you can also see in individual relationships, you know, the, the blame, the shame successes are minimized.
• 22:03
  MaryAnn Walker: Um, you're maybe ignored.
• 22:05
  MaryAnn Walker: You're downplayed backhanded criticism.
• 22:08
  MaryAnn Walker: They're holding other people to a different standard than they're holding you to, that they don't wanna put you back on.
• 22:13
  MaryAnn Walker: They don't wanna put you on a pedestal'cause you don't belong there.
• 22:15
  MaryAnn Walker: So they have to knock you down.
• 22:17
  MaryAnn Walker: And, and I love how you said that once you identify the theatrics, then you'll stop buying tickets to the show.
• 22:22
  MaryAnn Walker: And I think that's where like the people pleasing comes in, is we keep thinking if I can be good enough, then they'll treat me well.
• 22:28
  Elle Boone: it's a good one.
• 22:29
  Elle Boone: It's, we wanna be perceived as a good one.
• 22:32
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 22:33
  Elle Boone: And, and it's about control really, and not in an evil control freak kind of way, but you are manipulating.
• 22:42
  Elle Boone: The situation to protect yourself.
• 22:44
  Elle Boone: It's, it's a coping and protective mechanism that, can be learned, can be inherited.
• 22:51
  Elle Boone: And, you know, we wanna feel safe.
• 22:54
  Elle Boone: So if the person we're having this relationship with makes us feel unsafe, we have to create circumstances, imaginary or otherwise that allow us to feel safe so we can continue to function really.
• 23:08
  Elle Boone: And protect your nervous system as well.
• 23:10
  Elle Boone: 'cause sometimes it's, it's hard to confront that someone who you have loved for so long and is supposed to give that back to you, It is not working in your best interest.
• 23:22
  Elle Boone: They're manipulating you.
• 23:24
  Elle Boone: And it makes us shrink.
• 23:25
  Elle Boone: And then so we think, oh, how would do, how do we get out of the smallness?
• 23:30
  Elle Boone: Well, I'll just buy more things for them.
• 23:32
  Elle Boone: I'll do more things for them.
• 23:34
  Elle Boone: And.
• 23:35
  Elle Boone: It's just a spiral.
• 23:37
  Elle Boone: And so once you start to recognize the patterns, this is one of the things that I wanna suggest.
• 23:42
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 23:43
  Elle Boone: Look at your patterns.
• 23:44
  Elle Boone: Look at how many times you apologize For, for things that you know aren't your fault or, watch the behavior of other people.
• 23:56
  Elle Boone: When you go to lunch with friends or when you're at work, just notice.
• 24:01
  Elle Boone: How people behave.
• 24:02
  Elle Boone: You don't have to tell them you're surveying them, but you know, just look at how many times they apologize or, do they have patterns in them that you're recognizing in yourself as a way to get some sort of like reverse engineer mirroring.
• 24:17
  Elle Boone: Because I think watching other people's behaviors can be really informative for, for our own,
• 24:24
  MaryAnn Walker: tell me more about that.
• 24:25
  MaryAnn Walker: How has observing other people helped you?
• 24:27
  MaryAnn Walker: Because that's interesting'cause there is that self-reflective piece.
• 24:30
  MaryAnn Walker: But when you are observing other people, what else are you observing besides how often they're apologizing compared to you?
• 24:36
  MaryAnn Walker: Like, what are the other things that, kind of struck you as, oh, that's different.
• 24:41
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 24:41
  Elle Boone: So some, things that may not relate to family scapegoating specifically, but just, um, thinking about some of my friends who do over apologize.
• 24:50
  Elle Boone: There's also overgiving.
• 24:51
  Elle Boone: That's the behavior that I've noticed, in others and myself.
• 24:56
  Elle Boone: That's part of the people pleasing dynamic.
• 24:59
  Elle Boone: If I give enough, I'll be considered the good one and I won't be attacked today.
• 25:04
  Elle Boone: And I can, get through work at least.
• 25:07
  Elle Boone: Some of the other behaviors that I have noticed in people is the denial behavior.
• 25:13
  Elle Boone: I've had conversations with friends where, you know, they're in bad relationships and I'll gently say, oh,, I think, you know, have you looked at this?
• 25:22
  Elle Boone: No, no, no, no, no.
• 25:23
  Elle Boone: It's, they minimize the issues.
• 25:26
  Elle Boone: That's, that's another behavior pattern that I've noticed, and it's not that I think it's more that they're, again, they're protecting their own nervous system because if we pull the curtain all the way back at once, it's too much.
• 25:42
  Elle Boone: That's what I did when I first started to figure this out, MaryAnn, I thought I could YouTube my way out of this problem in six months.
• 25:52
  Elle Boone: No.
• 25:53
  Elle Boone: It's deeper than that.
• 25:54
  Elle Boone: There's so many layers.
• 25:55
  Elle Boone: Yeah, tho those are just a few of the behaviors and it's, it's interesting to watch even films, you know, ask yourself how are these characters behaving in this film?
• 26:07
  Elle Boone: Am I like them?
• 26:08
  Elle Boone: Do, do I wanna be more like them?
• 26:10
  Elle Boone: Do I wanna be le have less of their, those behaviors.
• 26:13
  Elle Boone: Films are a really good way to learn about behaviors, especially.
• 26:17
  Elle Boone: Specific films that are geared toward trauma.
• 26:21
  Elle Boone: There's actually a film, that I wanna recommend at the end.
• 26:24
  Elle Boone: I'm gonna save it for the end.
• 26:26
  Elle Boone: Don't lemme forget.
• 26:27
  MaryAnn Walker: Okay.
• 26:28
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 26:30
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 26:30
  MaryAnn Walker: Well, and that's so interesting because I, I like say how you said to watch films because I do know specifically people in narcissistic relationships, they're, they have a very easy time identifying who's the narcissist.
• 26:42
  Elle Boone: Right.
• 26:43
  MaryAnn Walker: But to zoom out a little and see if you can identify, okay, who's the golden child, who's the scapegoat, who's the lost child?
• 26:50
  MaryAnn Walker: To see if you can identify those other roles.
• 26:53
  MaryAnn Walker: Once you've identified that, okay, this is a familiar thing, instead of it, it's our tendency to just focus on the other person.
• 26:58
  MaryAnn Walker: Right?
• 26:59
  MaryAnn Walker: But I like he said, okay, well look for how it's showing up in other roles so that you can identify those parts of self, I think could be very helpful.
• 27:07
  Elle Boone: And I think it's easier too than sitting down and dissecting your own personality.
• 27:12
  Elle Boone: So for me, when, when I started to figure out the people pleasing dynamic in myself, going through all these videos and learning the, the vocabulary, the nomenclature, I thought, oh yes, I do that and, and that.
• 27:26
  Elle Boone: And I kept coming back to people pleasing.
• 27:28
  Elle Boone: And it took me a couple of years.
• 27:31
  Elle Boone: To really dismantle that part of my personality because it had become such a protective energy, in my family dynamic and, and being an empath and a highly sensitive person.
• 27:45
  Elle Boone: I feel tomorrow's feelings, you know, if we feel everything, but it's, it's a tough role and, The people pleasing for me was the biggest pattern that I really started to dismantle and rebuild, and so I had to ask myself often, am I really that nice?
• 28:05
  MaryAnn Walker: Hmm.
• 28:06
  Elle Boone: I really that kind?
• 28:08
  Elle Boone: Am I really that generous?
• 28:10
  Elle Boone: And I have always, and I still, because I am a generous person, I finally figured it out.
• 28:15
  Elle Boone: Yes, I am kind.
• 28:16
  Elle Boone: I'm not evil.
• 28:17
  Elle Boone: I am not what they said I was.
• 28:19
  Elle Boone: So there's this identity crisis, I think that happens in the scapegoat role.
• 28:25
  Elle Boone: I'm actually working on a course, about rebuilding or, or healing the identity wound and rebuilding a new identity.
• 28:32
  Elle Boone: Without the dysfunction because we don't know who we are outside of the dysfunction until we start to rebuild that.
• 28:39
  Elle Boone: So people pleasing for me was the first pattern to go, and I still to this day wanna help people.
• 28:45
  Elle Boone: If I see someone stranded on the side of the road, my impulse says, pull over.
• 28:52
  Elle Boone: And then my safety voice says, what are you thinking?
• 28:57
  Elle Boone: And then I have to remember, oh, that might be a people pleasing energy.
• 29:03
  Elle Boone: that is coming up from my past, but now I can stop it and not over give.
• 29:09
  Elle Boone: Which is a huge part of my people pleasing problem.
• 29:13
  Elle Boone: And then I let you know I give so much and then I don't get anything back, and then I'm upset.
• 29:17
  Elle Boone: I'm like, but you're supposed to reciprocate.
• 29:21
  Elle Boone: I'm supposed to not give so much.
• 29:23
  Elle Boone: That's really the dynamic I.
• 29:26
  Elle Boone: You don't, don't give as much.
• 29:28
  Elle Boone: Um, and it's hard for someone who's been a people pleaser for a long time to suddenly stop pleasing.
• 29:34
  MaryAnn Walker: For sure.
• 29:35
  MaryAnn Walker: And to untangle that of trying to think through.
• 29:37
  MaryAnn Walker: 'cause it's when love has been conditional for so long.
• 29:41
  Elle Boone: Mm-hmm.
• 29:41
  MaryAnn Walker: It's easy to think, okay, well now that I've broken free, now that I see it, now I can have this.
• 29:47
  MaryAnn Walker: And then still trying to figure out, okay, well what does it look like to create balance?
• 29:51
  MaryAnn Walker: 'cause like you said, sometimes we are overgiving thinking that then they'll see our value and come to us, but then we end up burned out and resentful and like, okay, well maybe I need to pull back a little so they can have the opportunity.
• 30:03
  MaryAnn Walker: And maybe they will and maybe they won't and but it is interesting.
• 30:07
  MaryAnn Walker: And then especially like you said, when you're going through that identity crisis.
• 30:11
  MaryAnn Walker: That just adds another layer where it's like, well, I don't quite know who I am.
• 30:14
  MaryAnn Walker: Am I a nice person?
• 30:16
  MaryAnn Walker: I think that that's gonna be really impactful for a lot of people.
• 30:18
  MaryAnn Walker: 'cause I know a lot of the people pleasers I've worked with, they think, well, if I'm not a people pleaser, I'm gonna be mean.
• 30:25
  MaryAnn Walker: It's like, no, you're not a mean person.
• 30:28
  MaryAnn Walker: You, you're just not going to over accommodate anymore.
• 30:30
  MaryAnn Walker: You're going to make sure that your own cup is filled and you're not mean, and you're not evil.
• 30:35
  MaryAnn Walker: You're not the things that they've told you that you are, but allowing that identity to shed so that you can live more authentically.
• 30:43
  Elle Boone: And you said something really beautiful in a podcast that I watched this week on the Fear of abandonment.
• 30:51
  MaryAnn Walker: Hmm
• 30:51
  Elle Boone: It's, that's true for both scapegoats and others who have people pleasing tendencies but weren't scapegoated.
• 31:01
  Elle Boone: It, it can be, it can be on, on both sides.
• 31:04
  Elle Boone: The fear of rejection, abandonment, loss, that's where that all comes from.
• 31:10
  Elle Boone: And yeah, it does.
• 31:12
  MaryAnn Walker: to recap that, that yeah, that, that having that fear of abandonment leads to that self abandonment, which I think is what you were just describing, is I don't know who I am anymore, because I've abandoned myself in an effort to please, and
• 31:26
  Elle Boone: And survive.
• 31:27
  MaryAnn Walker: losing people that Yeah.
• 31:28
  MaryAnn Walker: That we abandoned ourself.
• 31:29
  Elle Boone: Yeah, that is so well said.
• 31:32
  Elle Boone: We really do.
• 31:33
  Elle Boone: And, and then we're lost and confused and depressed and, and not functioning at our full capacity.
• 31:40
  Elle Boone: So it does take some, like you said earlier, some untangling and the, biggest thing I want everyone listening to take away from this, especially if you're just figuring out uhoh, she said something that makes me possibly be the scapegoat.
• 31:59
  Elle Boone: Just take your healing really slowly and be intentional about your healing.
• 32:06
  Elle Boone: Don't do what I did during the pandemic and over consume to the point of panic attacks and mass confusion like.
• 32:15
  Elle Boone: And find community and support that, is rooted in, scapegoating or people pleasing because they can, they can be different.
• 32:22
  Elle Boone: And I do wanna talk about the difference, a little bit of people pleasing versus codependency.
• 32:30
  Elle Boone: Is this something that you've explored on your show?
• 32:33
  MaryAnn Walker: I don't know if I've said it explicitly, so yeah, share more about that.
• 32:37
  Elle Boone: Okay, let me, find my notes because.
• 32:40
  Elle Boone: Scapegoating, and people pleasing, they go together.
• 32:43
  Elle Boone: But I don't, think that in everyone who's a people pleaser has been scapegoated.
• 32:48
  Elle Boone: People pleasing.
• 32:49
  Elle Boone: Like we said, it comes out of the fear of abandonment and wanting to protect and not lose and keep the status quo and keep the peace.
• 32:58
  Elle Boone: With codependency, it's more of a, survival technique.
• 33:05
  Elle Boone: Where I've got to find this note because I wrote this out and it was so perfect.
• 33:10
  Elle Boone: The codependent person is enmeshed with the narcissist, to the point where, especially with the golden child, there is a lack of individuality.
• 33:22
  Elle Boone: They're so enmeshed they're, kind of one person And so, it's sort of like codependency is like people pleasing on steroids.
• 33:31
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 33:32
  Elle Boone: You're, super enmeshed.
• 33:34
  Elle Boone: It's a survival mechanism rather than seeking approval.
• 33:39
  Elle Boone: That's one of the big differences, if that makes sense.
• 33:42
  Elle Boone: And I know you talk about people pleasing a lot on your show.
• 33:46
  Elle Boone: That's the main focus, right?
• 33:48
  MaryAnn Walker: yeah.
• 33:48
  Elle Boone: And have you come across any scapegoat people in your practice so far?
• 33:55
  Elle Boone: Is this newer to your ears?
• 33:57
  MaryAnn Walker: Well, it's interesting because I was getting requests on YouTube to talk about this, and that was right when I met you and, so it has been interesting to see how it's showing up, but to be able to put words on the experience, you know, as you've talked about it, I can see more.
• 34:12
  MaryAnn Walker: Okay.
• 34:12
  MaryAnn Walker: I can see that.
• 34:13
  MaryAnn Walker: Many of my clients are going to fit into this role.
• 34:16
  MaryAnn Walker: But it's, very interesting to actually put a name on it, I think can help to bring so much clarity and it helps you to feel not as alone when you've talked about the isolation that can come with it.
• 34:26
  MaryAnn Walker: Just putting a word on it can help you to feel not so alone and not so crazy that, well, what, what's wrong with me?
• 34:32
  MaryAnn Walker: Something must be wrong with me because they've always been telling you that something's wrong with you.
• 34:36
  MaryAnn Walker: Right?
• 34:37
  MaryAnn Walker: So it's easy to believe that, but to give it a name and see, oh, it's not me really.
• 34:42
  MaryAnn Walker: I think it's just so valuable.
• 34:44
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 34:45
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 34:46
  MaryAnn Walker: So I think that we've te Oh, go ahead.
• 34:48
  Elle Boone: no, no, no, no.
• 34:49
  Elle Boone: You're good.
• 34:49
  Elle Boone: You're fine.
• 34:50
  Elle Boone: Go ahead.
• 34:50
  MaryAnn Walker: Okay.
• 34:51
  MaryAnn Walker: So I was gonna say, I think that we've teased them enough and I would love to get a list of your resources and what supports now that they're probably identifying that, oh, that might be me.
• 35:01
  MaryAnn Walker: Tell us more about what supports you have found helpful.
• 35:04
  Elle Boone: So, as I mentioned earlier, the book by Rebecca Rejected, shamed, and Blamed.
• 35:10
  Elle Boone: There's an audible version as well and a hard copy Amazon, wherever you get your books.
• 35:16
  Elle Boone: I highly recommend that.
• 35:18
  Elle Boone: She's also got a pretty strong presence on, Substack, if you're familiar with that.
• 35:25
  Elle Boone: And, that book alone has, done more for me than.
• 35:30
  Elle Boone: Than any other research that I've done, Including all of the YouTube videos that I've watched., There aren't a lot specifically on the scapegoat role.
• 35:39
  Elle Boone: And the same for podcasts.
• 35:41
  Elle Boone: There just aren't many out there unfortunately.
• 35:44
  Elle Boone: The film I wanna suggest is a documentary by Gabor Mate.
• 35:50
  Elle Boone: I know I mentioned him the first time we met.
• 35:53
  Elle Boone: Lemme get the titles.
• 35:54
  Elle Boone: So I don't mess it up.
• 35:56
  Elle Boone: He's also, what I consider, this is my own term, sort of the godfather of trauma.
• 36:01
  Elle Boone: And he has a number of books out.
• 36:04
  Elle Boone: And this movie I watched sometime during the pandemic, it's called The Wisdom of Trauma,
• 36:11
  MaryAnn Walker: The wisdom of trauma.
• 36:13
  MaryAnn Walker: Fascinating.
• 36:14
  Elle Boone: It is.
• 36:15
  Elle Boone: Yeah, it was for me, it was sort of at the peak of, increasing my compassion for those who had scapegoated me in my family, which is a tough one, and we can call it forgiveness or compassion, radical acceptance.
• 36:33
  Elle Boone: But that comes later.
• 36:36
  Elle Boone: Like first step, identify your patterns, your behaviors,.
• 36:43
  Elle Boone: Make sure that you know, you, you were the family scapegoat by that checklist that we went through and do your own research.
• 36:50
  Elle Boone: Um, there's another film.
• 36:52
  Elle Boone: And it's not necessarily on scapegoating, it was done by a group of people at the uk and if I can't find it real quick, I will send it to you so you can include it in the show notes.
• 37:07
  Elle Boone: Um, it was more about narcissism and, it's on YouTube.
• 37:13
  Elle Boone: That's what it is.
• 37:14
  Elle Boone: I think it was free.
• 37:15
  Elle Boone: The Gabor Mate film was a donation based, watch.
• 37:19
  Elle Boone: Um, so yeah, I'm not finding it, but I will, I will find it and I will send it to you.
• 37:25
  Elle Boone: Um, for those who are interested in learning about the relationship, it's not a family dynamic.
• 37:30
  Elle Boone: It was about two people dating and, it was really eyeopening because like I said, scapegoating can come with narcissism or without it.
• 37:41
  Elle Boone: So it's important to understand both and take your healing slowly.
• 37:46
  Elle Boone: I have a couple of other tips that I think would help listeners, look at your patterns.
• 37:53
  Elle Boone: Take your healing slowly, and start to think about your identity because this really is an identity crisis in the middle of it, there's a lot of chaos and confusion that goes with this role.
• 38:09
  Elle Boone: But once you start to figure out your own patterns, then you can start to rebuild your future based on healthier patterns.
• 38:19
  Elle Boone: That create a life that is more enjoyable, That invites less, narcissism and scapegoating'cause that can happen in any dynamic in any group.
• 38:30
  Elle Boone: And we talked about this earlier, people pleasers tend to be a little bit more vulnerable and open and generous.
• 38:35
  Elle Boone: So we can be targets for that kind of energy.
• 38:39
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 38:39
  Elle Boone: Mm-hmm.
• 38:40
  MaryAnn Walker: And I can see how just taking that time to even think about your own identity and how do I see myself, could be so helpful when you're being told that you're something else.
• 38:49
  MaryAnn Walker: And of course that's going to create an identity crisis because it's kind of gaslighting, right?
• 38:53
  MaryAnn Walker: Saying, no, you are this horrible being.
• 38:56
  MaryAnn Walker: It's like, wait, what?
• 38:56
  MaryAnn Walker: Who am I?
• 38:57
  MaryAnn Walker: What did I say that?
• 38:58
  MaryAnn Walker: Did I do that?
• 38:59
  MaryAnn Walker: So I love those tips.
• 39:00
  MaryAnn Walker: So you said first identify your patterns and behaviors.
• 39:03
  MaryAnn Walker: Second, take your healing slowly, and third, start to think about your personal identity to help to untangle all of that.
• 39:10
  Elle Boone: Yeah, and a quote, I, I tried to find where this came from.
• 39:14
  Elle Boone: I've seen it a number of times, but it's has stuck and I can't find the original author, but it stuck with me for years, and that is to be careful of what you tolerate because you are teaching people how to treat you so good.
• 39:29
  Elle Boone: Boundaries, right.
• 39:30
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 39:31
  Elle Boone: but, and noticing your own patterns, will help you identify, oh, this person's giving me breadcrumbs.
• 39:37
  MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
• 39:38
  Elle Boone: Hmm.
• 39:38
  Elle Boone: What am I doing to allow that?
• 39:40
  Elle Boone: I want the whole loaf.
• 39:42
  Elle Boone: I don't want just the crumbs.
• 39:43
  Elle Boone: I deserve more.
• 39:45
  Elle Boone: But first is the awakening.
• 39:46
  Elle Boone: You have to figure out, what your behavior patterns are.
• 39:50
  Elle Boone: And just be really easy on yourself.
• 39:52
  Elle Boone: Just take your time, take it as slow as you can.
• 39:56
  Elle Boone: Be intentional with your healing because don't do what I did over consume and like the doom scrolling, and then get stuck on a new influencer on TikTok or whatever that's giving you new information about the narcissism in your family.
• 40:11
  Elle Boone: Like maybe schedule your, intake, the consumption of the information so that you're rested and fed and feeling good and you're of sound mind when you're learning about it, so that you don't get really reactive and over emotional and go into a spiral like I did.
• 40:29
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 40:30
  MaryAnn Walker: Such good advice.
• 40:31
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 40:31
  MaryAnn Walker: So what words of encouragement do you have for those that are at the beginning of this journey?
• 40:37
  Elle Boone: You know, I would say you, you were never the problem.
• 40:41
  Elle Boone: You are, it's not your fault.
• 40:43
  Elle Boone: You have hidden talents and, and, parts of you that you've yet to discover that are buried under this identity that you have been given, that's been forced upon you, and that you've adopted out of necessity, out of survival.
• 40:58
  Elle Boone: And just recognize that some, some of that's in the past now, hopefully most of it, and that there is a way out and that you can heal from this.
• 41:06
  Elle Boone: But be careful, with your, over consumption and find community that understand this dynamic that can support you and listen to your story so you can feel seen and heard and validated and be a contributing member of society rather than reclusive in your home, In the pantry, if you will.
• 41:28
  MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
• 41:28
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 41:30
  MaryAnn Walker: Well, that is beautiful.
• 41:31
  MaryAnn Walker: Elle, thank you so much for being here.
• 41:33
  MaryAnn Walker: This has been
• 41:33
  Elle Boone: you.
• 41:33
  MaryAnn Walker: an amazing conversation.
• 41:36
  MaryAnn Walker: And tell everybody again, where can they find you?
• 41:39
  MaryAnn Walker: Tell'em the name of your podcast.
• 41:40
  MaryAnn Walker: I'm gonna make sure that this drops about the same time so they can jump over and follow you and subscribe.
• 41:45
  MaryAnn Walker: 'cause like you said, there's so few resources for those that have been scapegoated, and I think that your channel is going to be an extremely valuable resource.
• 41:53
  MaryAnn Walker: So tell us more about how they can find you.
• 41:56
  Elle Boone: Thank you.
• 41:56
  Elle Boone: Yes.
• 41:56
  Elle Boone: I'm also on Substack.
• 41:58
  Elle Boone: I don't, engage quite as much as I will after the launch.
• 42:01
  Elle Boone: And both that and the podcast can be found.
• 42:04
  Elle Boone: Uh, there is a trailer out right now, I will say not on Apple because strategically I wanna get as many, uh, reviews to get us into a higher ranking so we have more visibility and can reach more people.
• 42:16
  Elle Boone: But once that launches, it will go straight to Apple and it's called the Family Scapegoat Chronicles.
• 42:22
  Elle Boone: And if, if anyone listening is unfortunately the scapegoat in your family and you wanna come on the show, that's gonna be a huge part of the format where we interview either anonymously, or like this on, on camera where people can come and share their story in a safe space and find community.
• 42:41
  MaryAnn Walker: That's beautiful because I'm sure that finding your voice and giving voice to the ways that you've been wronged can just be so healing for people.
• 42:48
  MaryAnn Walker: And not only that, but hearing those stories and knowing you're not alone, I, think that's just gonna be beautiful.
• 42:53
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 42:53
  Elle Boone: And critical, I think for healing as well.
• 42:55
  Elle Boone: And hopefully I can be a, a part of that for many people, because already I have like 12 or 13 different countries that have listened to the trailer.
• 43:05
  Elle Boone: So it's a global issue.
• 43:07
  Elle Boone: It's not, you know, just one or two families.
• 43:09
  Elle Boone: It's a thing.
• 43:10
  Elle Boone: So I'm so grateful that you invited me here today because we're just getting started and you're kicking it off, so thank you.
• 43:19
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 43:19
  MaryAnn Walker: thank you so much and yeah, thank you for all of the healing that you're bringing into the world.
• 43:23
  MaryAnn Walker: It's beautiful to witness.
• 43:24
  Elle Boone: Thank you.
• 43:24
  Elle Boone: Likewise.
• 43:25
  Elle Boone: I love your show.
• 43:26
  Elle Boone: I love your show.
• 43:27
  Elle Boone: I can't wait to dig in more.
• 43:29
  Elle Boone: So,
• 43:29
  MaryAnn Walker: Oh good.
• 43:30
  MaryAnn Walker: Well, thank you so much.
• 43:31
  MaryAnn Walker: I'm glad that we were able to connect.
• 43:32
  Elle Boone: yes.
• 43:33
  Elle Boone: And maybe you can come on our show and share your story and, and expertise.
• 43:38
  Elle Boone: I think that would be amazing.
• 43:40
  Elle Boone: Yeah.
• 43:41
  MaryAnn Walker: I'd love to.
• 43:42
  MaryAnn Walker: All right.
• 43:42
  MaryAnn Walker: Well, thank you so much everybody for being here.
• 43:44
  MaryAnn Walker: And as a reminder, you can find all of the resources that Elle talked about here on the show.
• 43:48
  MaryAnn Walker: I will link all of them in the show notes so that you can find support, community, and healing.
• 43:53
  MaryAnn Walker: So thank you so much and I'll see you next week.
• 43:56
  Elle Boone: Thank you.
• 43:56
  Elle Boone: Take care.
• 43:57
  Elle Boone: Bye everyone.