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Season 1_ Sidebar 9(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome this week's Proof Sidebar. We're here this
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: week with Senda Davis and Kevin Fitzpatrick discuss episode eleven
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: of our series on Cane Story and Lee Clark.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Hey guys, Hey Susan, Who are you?
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Susan doing good? So this week we talked about the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Free Birds and whether or not they actually exist. When
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: you guys started the story, what was your take on
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the Freebirds?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I never thought there was a gang called the Free Birds,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: and I can't believe why. It just seems so far
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: fetched to me. I always thought it was either a band,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: like a garage band, or just a group of kids,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: middle schoolers, high school age kids who called themselves the Freebirds.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: From what I knew about this story, Initially, I thought
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: it sounded a little far fetched that they were an
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: actual gang, and I took it more like maybe they
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: were like a little rascals gang or something like that.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: And then when I met Glenn Clark and June's story,
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: when I met the parents, that even more solidified that
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: sort of take. For me, I just didn't buy that
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: it was an actual gang in the way that we
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: understand the termint.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are groups of boys in Rome in that
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: time period. I'm sure still now who would like call
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: themselves gangs or you'd see people like in a housing complex,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the boys there would come together like, Oh, we're the
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: gang at you know, X block or whatever. When I
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: first looked at this case, I first heard about it
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and read one of the appeals decisions online, I assumed
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: that's what's going on here, And then I talked to Lee.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: He's like, no, whatever the free Birds were, it didn't
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: involve me. And Lee thought it was like kind of
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the same as you just just had a like a
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: garage band or something, or just some of the other
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: boys call themselves that. But whatever it was, he hadn't
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: been one of them.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I always had the sense that it
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: was the term gang got carried away somehow, or it
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: was a convenient term for the prosecution police.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And still not exactly clear whether a group of
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: boys ever called themselves the free Birds outside the context
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: of it, never came together like garage band. But what
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: is clear is that there's no gang in the sense
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: of boys swearing loyalty to one another and vowing to
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: murder each other if they break their treasured gang rules.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: That didn't happen.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I think one of the things Susan about this episode
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: we hadn't really talked about before, is the idea that
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: if you are in a gang, or let's take it,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: you know, bring it back a little bit, you're not
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: even in a gang. You're just a tight knit group
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: of friends who plotted to do this. You would actually
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: have to hang out together and be friends with each other.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: You have to actually meet each other at least one
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: It's like in the case of Joseph Wilkins and Pete Jordan,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: they didn't even know each other around that one day
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: for the safe left. They weren't even friends, let alone
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: like best buddies.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it would be hard to pledge your loyalty
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: to someone you've met one time.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I do like the story though, about Kin and Lee
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: walking through the cemetery and a bird landing on Kane's foot.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: There's just something very childlike and innocent about that story
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and how they responded to it. You know, if Lee's
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: right and they're like eleven years old, or you know,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Kin thought they were a little bit older. But that
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: story kind of resonated to me about their boyhood.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: In Rome when Cain told me that story. I had
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: an image in my head of, you know, the saying,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: like a butterfly flast it's wings in the Amazon, and
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: there's a tornado in Kansas.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, it sets off a chain of events that leads
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: to disaster.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in this case, you have a random bird
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: that happens to land on a boy and sets off
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: a chain of events that leads to the two boys
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: there serving life in prison.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: This sort of idyllic start did sort of carry through
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: for those.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Two And it had been a while to started talking
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: to Lee Clark before I realized that even Lee Clark
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: and Caine's story, who were and are close friends, they
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: also weren't like the backbone of a gang or their
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: friendship was not the kind of close friendship imagining. Because
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: they were childhood friends, they grew up together, their parents
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: knew one another, their mothers are still friends today. But
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: by the time all this was going on, they weren't
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: hanging out together a lot. They were maybe every other
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: month seeing each other. They were still friends and all,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: but it was not the kind of friendship that sort
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: of holds up the narrative that the prosecution's going with.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Their lives are very different. At this point, Lee had
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: dropped out of high school, he had a girlfriend he
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: was living with, he was working, he was paying his
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: rent when he could, you know, and Kin is still
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: going to high school and performing with the school band.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: So their lives are very different at this point, and
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you can see how they're kind of growing apart and
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: going their separate ways.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: And Kin is also was sort of my impression, immature
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: relatively when they all were. But so Cain is seventeen
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: when they go to trial, and Lee is the same
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: age as Kin. But Brian and Joseph and some of
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: the other boys in this case, they were fifteen. They
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: were two grades below. Lee was never really hanging with
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: them one on one anyway. They were his little brother's age,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: like his little brother's friends, so he did hang out, sure,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: but they weren't tight. It was Cain who had the
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: tight friendships with the younger boys.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: And those boys lived over there near Brian, so you know, yeah, they.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: All lived close together. They were all right there, including
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Toppy Hyde, who heard about this episode. And Tommy Hyde
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: seems to have played sort of a background role in
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: this case from the start, and that he was telling
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: people very early on. According to Brian's family that he
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: thought Lee Clark could does somehow it involved in Brian's death.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: And then at some point it's really not clear when,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: but after the trial, surly Tommy starts telling people, including
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Brian's family, about the story about how some night, he's
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: not really clear when, like maybe like days or weeks
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: before Brian's death, he and Brian had gotten drunk at
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Bryn Forsyth's house and Lee and Kane came over, pulled
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: nine millimeters on them and fired them back of their heads,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: but the guns were empty. There's no explanation for why
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: they would have done this or what was the cause
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: of it. And if this really had happened, there should
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: be some corroborating evidence, and it's just not there.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: And it's not something that was used at trial either.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: This is a story, right, that came out at some point,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't anything that was used to prosecute or
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: convict Lee or Kane.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: No, but it made a big impact on Brian's friends
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: and family. And as we also found out, although I
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: initially had not thought that the police had ever spoken
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: to Tommy Hyde, they had. They had interviewed him and
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the contest that interview have never been shared. There's no
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: record of it. We don't know what exactly he told them.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: And Tommy's the only person I've spoken to still who said, oh, yeah,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: the pree birds were real and I was kind of
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: maybe sort of part of it. He says he moved
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: out of the cemetery area before became real or something,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: so it's not the timeline's kind of fuzzy, but he
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: said he was going to be part of it before
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: he moved. So it's possible too that like the cemetery
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: boys that lived right there did have they did call
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: themselves this or something like that. But again, that would
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: not have involved Lee, who didn't live in Silver Creek
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: and was not hanging out with them a lot of
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: that time period. And even if they had called Tommy
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Hyde at trial, they had asked him like, did you
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: guys have a rule book that had rules about what
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: to do? And he had been like, no, of course
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: that didn't happen, right.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Because he told you there was no rule book that
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: he knew of.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Tommy said that there was no rule book, and he
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: laughed at the idea. He thought it was really funny.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: He told me, he was like, that's something that kind
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: of crab Floyd County would make up if they had
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: to go to jury trial and need to comix someone. Yeah,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: so he knew exactly what that was.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: One of the interesting things about this case is that
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: there's all kinds of stories or rumors or myths, whatever
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: you want to call it, and it seems like we
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: can trace the origin or they actually do exist. The
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: rule book, was it a song book? Was it a
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: book of lyrics? Was there gang called the Free Birds? Well,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: maybe it was a bird that landed. Like, there's some
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: element of truth in all of these things, and I
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: find it really interesting to kind of unravel what the
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: truth is compared to what people have come to believe.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Now, the only thing of certainty that I've been able
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: to take for a long time is that I do
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: believe a bird landed on his foot. It's about the
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: only thing of certainty I've taken for a long time.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: I always wondered if if this thing really happened, would
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Lee even recall that it occurred? And I asked him,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: I just, hey, so, just wondering did the bird of
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: a land on you? And He's like, oh, yeah, I
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: do recall that it made an impression on both boys
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: the scenes, even though Lee was unaware. That's sort of
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: how Cain got this personal mantra of we're free as
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: a bird. But one thing that all the boys in
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: this case seemed pretty consistent on is the word narks,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: which I found interesting. That's a key word in this case.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: That's apparently the proof that that's why Brian was killed.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: But all of them told us that the word narks
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: was not in the vocabulary. Even they're trying to explain
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: that concept. To describe someone doing that, they would never
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: say narks. They had to say snitch maybe something like that.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: But this word, wherever it came from, does not seem
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: to have been the vocabulary of the boys in Silver Creek.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Speaking of narc Susan, how surprised were you when you
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: got a phone call from Joseph Wilkins.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: I was pretty surprised because I had tried really hard
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: for a long time, and I was pretty sure he
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: was never going to call, because I knew when I
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: talked to his mother that he knew I was trying
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to reach him, and he still didn't reach back out.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: So we were planning to go try to find him.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Whatever it took if we had to. But I know
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: that you and me and Kevin, the three of us,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: we talked about this kid for a long time, like,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: how could no one have interviewed him? How could he
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: have not testified? He's so key to the story because
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone disputes that he drew the note
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: the weed Eagle and put it in the coffin. What
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: is that question is whether or not he drew the
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: narts and crossed it out. And it's really shocking that,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: you know, we're kind of the first people to.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Talk to him, except we're not most likely. I still
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: think there's more more.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Well, the first people on record to.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Talk to him, yes, the first people on record to
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: talk to him. And even a trial when this comes up,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you can, like the judges, you can tell from the
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: transcript he is really surprised and a little bit befuddled
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: because you know, they're going through witnesses, they're calling them
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: and at some point they start discussing that the gang
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: stuff and like the free birds, and he's like, but
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: you're going to call the boy who drew this note, right,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: And the prosecutor's like, let me decide that, and judge
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: like okay, but that's that's kind of weird, right, You're
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: not going to call him? And then he asked like, well,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: you did talk to him, right, and the prosecutor is like,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: I don't remember.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's such a huge red flag. Even for
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: the defense attorneys. They should have talked to him too.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: They could have talked to him.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: And it seems like at least Kane's attorneys a painted
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: him for trial or someone did. But I don't understand why.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, I understand why the prosecution might have not
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: wanted him up there. If they think that possibly he
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: did not write the narks on that note, then yeah,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: they're going to stay the hell away from calling him
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: a trial. But then why isn't the defense calling him
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: up there? Are they scared going to confirm like he's
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: going to be like, yeah, we're in a gang, or
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: like what was the Why didn't at least talk to
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: him and find out what he would say before deciding
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: not to call him? And it is bizarre and it
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: makes no sense. And I think in reality, he was
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: some an important piece of this case from the very beginning,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: because we know that there was police at the school
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: the day after Brian's funeral, there's a lot of suggestion
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: that it was about Joseph Wilkins. His mother told me
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: it was about him and his connection to this case.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: And it's nearly inconceivable to me that the police didn't
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: actually talk to him at that time.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: It's not clear what the incident at the school was,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: but there was something about him saying needing protection or
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: maybe he would need protection, which indicated to me that
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: if the game theory could have happened earlier than we
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: suspect it, and they thought he would be the next
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: one targeted. Or maybe I'm just reading into much about
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: what he meant by so and asked me if I
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: needed protection.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: See, that's my guess as well. Joseph says he does
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: not recall a lot of this. He's don't remember the
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: police being there or exactly what the concerns were. And
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: from his point of view, he was fifteen, like this
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: horrible thing happened. Suddenly he's yank at the school and
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: sent across the state to somewhere else. His whole life
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: is upended. His parents definitely are concerned for him and
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: trying to protect him, but from what we're not entirely sure.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And also At the same time, in the newspapers, you've
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: got lots of quotes from the investigators and they're like, yeah,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: all kinds of crazy ass rumors going around town.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Haha.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: The community is really upset on these bizarre rumors, which
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: they don't actually spell out, but someone somewhere is telling
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: the police about some very strange and weird rumors that
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: have everyone upset. So yeah, there's still once again more
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: questions and answers about a lot of what went on investigation.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: But what is clear is that if they'd actually called
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: some of these people at trial, the ones that should
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: have mattered a lot to the case, things would look
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: very different.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems from what the conversation is now with Joseph,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you know, if you had said the same things he
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: said to you back then, it would be a very
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: different outcome.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: The big thing is since the beginning, since we first
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: heard about this story, to me that that drawing placed
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: in the coffin was this crucial piece of evidence one
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: way or another, Like who ever drew that, whoever put
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: narcs on it, whoever put it in the confin, Like
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: it was always this big thing. They must know a
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: lot that must tell you a lot about what actually
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: happened his drawing, But he didn't write narts and that's
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: a huge part of the story right there.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but he did write freebirds, which is an indication
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: that freebirds mattered to someone in this case. So one
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: thing that Joseph did not come out right and tell
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: me is that his motivation for drawing the note that
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: the message to Brian says, you know, we'll miss you,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: fly high, see you at the crossroads with the freebirds banner.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: It was a gesture from himself, yes, but it was
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: also on behalf of his better friend Cane's story. Cain
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: couldn't go to the funeral, and Cain had been extremely
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: close to Brian. Joseph and Brian were sort of friends,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: but they you know, they'd hung out, you know, half
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: dozen times, smoke together. They were friends, yes, but they
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: weren't super close. And the way Joseph's explained it to me,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: it kind of made sense why he would have done this.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: It wasn't because he himself necessarily would have done it
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: on his own, but he knew that Cain couldn't be
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: there and wanted to leave something in Cain's honor.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Almost, Yeah, have you had a chance to ask Cain
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: if he knew Joseph was doing that for him.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not clear when he learned about Joseph having
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: drawn this, because again Joseph and Cain did hang out
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: like seven months later the following summer, so it's hard
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to know when they learned about various things. Also worth noting, Cain,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: after being charged with murder, was released on bond. Lee
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: was not given bond for reasons still aren't cured me today.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: But Cain was so up until trial, even through trial,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: he was still free, still working summer job for a
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: little bit and was out and about, which is how
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: he saw Joseph Wilkins when they were driving to Jangles
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: together and when apparently Dallas Battle saw them driving there together.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's very clear that if anyone had
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: wanted to question or find Joseph, they could have.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, they Dalla's Battle firmably chose not to speak to
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Wilkins on the record, and.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Just to remind listeners, and you know, there's a lot
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: of information in all of these episodes, but Joseph Wilkins
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: apparently asked Deborah Bowlling, Brian's mother if he could put
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: something in the coffin and even showed her the drawing
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: and she agreed to us. She said, yes, he could
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: do that, and.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: She testifies a trial though she even saw the narks
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: written on it, and she told him, oh, that's a
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: lovely drawing, go ahead and put it in, but that
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: if she'd seen the narks, would she have done that?
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Also interesting a trial when king gets in the santestifies
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: prosecutors to ask him like it was Brian and Nark,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: and he's like, I wouldn't even use the word narks.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: The only people I've ever heard use the word narcs
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: was Brian's parents.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: I wonder if she would even remember seeing the narks thing.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean you're pretty small, and you're so
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: traumatized and dealing with everything going on. You know, chances
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: are she just glanced at it and wouldn't have noticed
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: every detail, that's right. I mean I looked at it
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: two hundred times and never picked up that Brian's name
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: is misspelled on it until someone pointed it out.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I ahs, she mentioned that. So there's another theory too
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: from some people in the case. On the note it's
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: dressed to Brian's it's you know, fly hile missue, but
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Brian is spelled b r ai in and some of
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Brian's family thought that this was another sort of calling
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: card or proof that he had.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Been shot in the head intentionally.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was the boys the Freebird's way of
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: bragging they shot Brian in his brain.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: I don't know, sounds sort of presumptuous to me.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I asked Joseph about it, and he said
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: that was just he test to assume that was a typo.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: He doesn't remember spelling it wrong, but he was kind
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: of shocked by that. But he didn't remember misspelling at all.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Was there anything when you were talking to him that
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: you you sort of had paused or you just didn't
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: believe him?
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I at this point, we don't have any records, so
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: I can't say exactly went on back then. I will
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: say I am not entirely convinced by his lack of
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: memory about what happened. Very early on with the police investigation,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: his mother recalled it pretty well, but he says he
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: did not. But he was also pretty clear that like
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: this was like a really traumatic thing for him, and
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: he has been caring around guilt, that maybe there was
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: something he could have done or should have done. And
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: he says that he was asking people like this is
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: not right, what do I do? And all the adults
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: in his life are telling him, don't rock the boat,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: just stay out of it, which he did. But I
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: definitely got the sense that he has a lot of
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: regrets over that.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: You know, if he's telling the truth about not writing
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: marks on there, it's a very different tale than he had.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that does of course raise the question of
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: who did write it. But just and Kevin, I know
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: you guys have been very busy lately working on an
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: excited new project.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Very busy as an understanding, but yeah, Kevin, do you
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: want to explain it?
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Well, So just sit and I have been working on
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: a seven part series that will air on Investigation Discovery
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: and stream on Discovery Plus starting on Sunday to twenty second,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: seven hours that will be played over three nights. And
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: we have been working on this project for a year,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: actually more than a year, it's about a year and
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: a half, and we've been sort of really pushing the
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: last few months to sort of get it done. And
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: it's about the murder of the next Day family, family
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: of four in California and the trial of Chase Merritt
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: for their murders. It's a pretty extraordinary story about a
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: missing family and if this man guilty when they turn
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: up dead, and so it's taken a lot out of us.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: When you say you.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Into them, I would say, yes, it has taken a
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: lot out of us. It's a case that when the
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: family first went missing back in twenty ten, you know,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: it became headline news around the world. On whatever reasons,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: this case touched a lot of people. It was maybe
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: two young children were murdered and you know, their mom
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: and dad, and at the time, no one knew what happened.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: They just went missing. They literally just disappeared off the
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: face of the earth.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: And the official story seems to be from the police
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: that oh.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: The in went to Mexico, right, they thought they had
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: voluntarily left or you know, voluntarily went missing.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: So one of the things that I think sort of
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: spurned such interest in the story is that they weren't
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: found for almost four years, so it allowed for people
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: to speculate about their fate. And we all know that
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: people love a good sort of conspiracy theory, right, so
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: that sort of spun out of control. I think, and
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: then when they were finally found, that created a whole
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: new set of conspiracy theories as to who could have
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: done it and why. So it's a very interesting tale,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: to say nothing of the fact that this project we've
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: got coming out had cameras in the courtroom, and so
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: you can see the tension and the hostility that existed
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: between the prosecution and the defense and the family members.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: And it is an intense sort of American crime story
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: that I think people will find very interesting.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of tension and a lot of passion
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: people involved.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the interpersonal dynamics in this case are pretty wild.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's safe to say that a lot
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: of people involved in the case do not like each other,
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: even people who are members of the same family. I
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: think that this is a story that damaged a lot
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: of relationship chips for the survivors, and it put a
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: lot of people in their families in crisis, either fighting
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: for their innocence or trying to prove someone's guilt, or
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: fighting over someone's legacy. And it is a story about
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: how a crime can really impact a large group of people,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: and a story about how people will do anything to
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: prove guilt and innocence.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: And it probably won't be as big a draw for
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: everyone else, but there's also some pretty interesting cell phone
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: evidence involved my priorities.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: We debated on whether or not to bring Susan on
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: for the cell phone evidence.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Well, you need three more episodes, let's just cover that.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: So I was going to say, we didn't want to
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: make it a twenty hour Susan analyzing every single peeing
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: on every cell tower out in California.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, we've tried to do the show in
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: a way that sort of fairly presents both sides, and
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: we're hoping that the audience will will sort of come
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: to some of their conclusions as to what they think
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: happened and guilt or innocence. It's an extraordinary story. I
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: was surprised that how deep it went when it first
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: sort of was first brought to us and we were
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: asked if we wanted to produce it. I guess I
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: didn't realize how rich it was. And as we started
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: to get into it, it's like, boy, you can't even
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: really tell this in six seven hours. I mean, there's
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: so much here, and there's so many hard feelings, and
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: there's so much evidence. And so much interpretation of the evidence.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: It's a compelling story, and I think I'm pretty sure
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: that there were a couple of times where Jucinda was
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: ready to retire while we were making this.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: There were many times during this process I thought I
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: should retire.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: And I will tell you actually, while we're recording this
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: right now, the final master is being sort of loaded
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: as we speak right like, it's this is like we're
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: still working on this.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I've been hearing about it the background for like
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: a year now, so I'm excited to see the final product.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to hear what you think of it, Susan,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and you.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Know, ay laundering, I still think that.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And we can answer any questions about two Shallow Graves
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: as well on next week's sidebar. So I hope everyone
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: checks it out. It's this Sunday, May twenty second on
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: ID and streaming on Discovery Plus.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: All Right, What's what's on next week's proof?
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Angela Bruce.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Angela Bruce the woman who had the party and says
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: she heard Kane and Lee confess. I think a lot
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: of people have been waiting a long time here to
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: hear what she has to say.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: Well, I look forward to that because I know that
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: there's some amazing stuff there, so I think the audience
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: is going to enjoy that.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Well, that's it for this week's Proof Sidebar. Thanks for
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: listening everyone, and we're back on Monday with episode twelve.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: If you have any questions for future side episodes, don't
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: forget to send them our way through email, Twitter, Facebook,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: or Instagram. On all social media, we are Proof Prime Pod.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at the VF Melo
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: two and on Instagram at Soo Simp and you can
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: now find Just Send on Instagram too at just Send
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: up Proof