Latest / The You Project / #2247 Loneliness, Solitude & Social Connection - Prof. Robert Coplan

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#2247 Loneliness, Solitude & Social Connection - Prof. Robert Coplan · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: G'day team. I hope you're bloody terrific.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Before we get underway today, I want to tell you
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: about my new life workshop. It's coming up November 8th
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: at Deakin Uni in Melbourne. It's called Life on Purpose.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: And as the title suggests, we're going to explore living
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: life on purpose. And by that, I mean a life
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: with intention and direction and passion and even strategy. And
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: while we're at it, we'll also explore the idea of
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: living in purpose. And by that, I mean, living a
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: life which aligns with our beliefs, goals and values. In
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: other words, the things that matter most to us. It's
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: been my experience and observation over the years that many
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: people are living a somewhat unintentional and unconscious existence, kind
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: of day-to-day doing what doesn't really work, what doesn't really
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: make them happy and doesn't really produce the kind of
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: results they want to see in the world. Kind of
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: like a Groundhog Day existence, which makes it predictable and familiar,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: but not necessarily fulfilling or rewarding or joyful. And having
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: worked with thousands of people over four decades, I'm fascinated
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: with potential and possibilities, and of course, human behavior. All
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: the stuff we're going to do a deep dive on
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: on November 8th at Melbourne's Deakin Uni. So I would
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: love to see you there to book in or to
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: learn more, just go to my website, craigharper.net, and take
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: a squiz-a-roonie.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: See you there.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Or not.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: And now, I'm with the show. Oh, g'day, team.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: It's Harps and Tiff and Rob. It's a bloody You Project.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: It's a, what's today, Tiff?
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: Monday?
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Tuesday.
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: Tuesday. Tuesday. I had to think about that. Yeah.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, you don't want to be too
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: all over it. People will think we're efficient and clever,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: and we don't want that. Let's set the bar low,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I say.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Start with the bar low, and then if we get
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: above that, we can surprise them. How was Queensland? It
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: was fabulous.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: I just had a little flashback then of a shout-out
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: to Michael, who has been at both of the Queensland
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: speaking conferences. He's an avid listener of the You Project,
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: the only podcast he listens to. And on day two,
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: he came in in the morning– And over coffee he said,
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: I hadn't listened to an episode in a while and
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: I tuned in to you and Harps and Patrick and
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: you were talking about your cans.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Rob, cans is Australian slang for breasts, but you don't
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: need to comment on that at all. See, only you
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: could bring that up because if Rob or I brought
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: that up, one, that'd be a lawsuit.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Two, that'd be both of our brands done forever. Not
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: that I have a brand, but he has a brand.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: This is what you do to me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: I go for a professional.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Business speaking conference. Hang on, hang on. Don't blame me.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm dumped in the middle of that.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: You have spoken about your breasts or lack thereof extensively.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I just think you have....
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Quite well-earned pecs. And I think you can talk about that. Rob,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: for God's sake, help.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Rob.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: Am I in the right place here? I got to ask.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Rob's sitting over there in Canada going, what the fuck
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: is this? What have I done? What have I said
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: yes to? What have I said yes to? Professor Rob Copland, hi.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the You Project. Thank you so much for
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: agreeing to the mayhem that you've just stepped into.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: I'm doing just good. Hi, Craig.
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: Hi, Tiff.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: It's great to be here. I'm already having a great time.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: So let's get into it.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, that is good.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Give our audience, so I don't read, well, I was
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: going to say a boring bio. Your bio is definitely
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: not boring. But why don't you tell my audience whatever
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: it is that you want to tell them about you,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: who you are, what you do.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Let's get the Rob snapshot.
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  Speaker 3: Sure. So I am a developmental psychologist. That's where I
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: got my training. So I went and got a master's
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: and PhD in that. And then since then, 1995. I
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: have been a professor in the psychology department at Carleton
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: University in Ottawa, Canada. And I started off in my
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: career studying shy and socially anxious kids. And I still
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: do that to some degree, but over the course of
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: 30 odd years, I sort of expanded my studies to
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: more broadly focus on, you know, experiences of solitude, both
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: the good and the bad. And I've studied that from
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: a bunch of different angles across the lifespan of in
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: a bunch of different countries. It's been a real ride
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: actually to, to explore that topic in the ins and
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: outs over so long. And after 30 years of writing
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: academic papers and academic books, uh, I finally got convinced
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: to write a book for popular press just for the
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: general public, uh, which came out just about a year ago.
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  Speaker 3: It's called the joy of solitude. And in that book,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I talk a little bit about sort of kind of
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: like a user guide for how to, we can get
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  Speaker 3: most out of our time alone. And so I'm really
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: happy to be here. I mentioned before we got recording
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: that I have spent some time in Australia. I did
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: a sabbatical here a number of years ago as a
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: visiting professor at the University of Melbourne, which was an
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: amazing experience. And so it's nice to be chatting with you.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: Do you want to hear anything else on the non-academic track? Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So apart from being a brilliant academic, my words, not yours,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: apart from being a world-respected academic who's written a bunch
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: of academic books and, as you said, more recently stepped
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: into the big wide world of regular humans like Tiff
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  Speaker 2: and I, The Joy of Solitude, he's written a book
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  Speaker 2: that Tiff and I can understand. I mean, thank God
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: for that. Thank God for that. What else do you
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: do besides research and write and inform and educate and inspire?
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Other than those crappy things, what else do you do?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I guess my biggest passion and hobby outside of
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: my day job is music. I play music and I
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: play piano since I was quite young. I sing. I've
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: been in various different incarnations of bands and performing groups
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  Speaker 3: for decades and still do that on a regular basis
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  Speaker 3: and uh for me that's we all need something that's
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: going to take the stress away from our day-to-day and
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: for me that's uh that's doing that and so it's
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: a nice fun it's fun to be a professor who's
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: a musician on the side at one point i thought
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: about being a musician for real uh but of course
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: you can't be you can't be a musician and a
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  Speaker 3: professor on the side so i i kind of defaulted
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: to the other one.
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  Speaker 2: I reckon you could figure it out if you wanted to. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: music is very therapeutic. It's like that's your happy place.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: That's your happy place, right? Tiff, and for Tiff, you
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: punching people in the face is your happy place, isn't it?
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I was for a good four months
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: quite the pianist myself last year though.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Well, we love a good pianist.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: So I'll just leave that there. We'll just put that
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: on the TYP shelf and you can revisit it whenever
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: you want.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Fucking hell.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know that it's good having you back on
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  Speaker 2: the show. You're like that disruptive child that keeps walking
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: in when the grownups.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Are trying to chat.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: I hope this isn't my fault. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you're the common denominator. You're the new component.
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  Speaker 1: It's got to be you. Rob, what was the catalyst
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  Speaker 1: or the genesis.
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  Speaker 2: For research into loneliness, solitude, social connection or lack thereof?
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  Speaker 2: Is that because you were a horribly lonely kid looking
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  Speaker 2: out the window.
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  Speaker 1: For a long time, waiting for a friend?
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  Speaker 3: Actually, you know what? It's funny. I mean, I, from
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  Speaker 3: a very young age, I worked with kids and that's
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: why I became a developmental psychologist in the first place.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what kind of raised my interest in shy
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  Speaker 3: and socially anxious kids, because I would be working like
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: at a day camp or anything, you know, an extracurricular activity.
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  Speaker 3: And I, I was sort of drawn to the kids
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  Speaker 3: who were sort of off by themselves and didn't want
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  Speaker 3: to play with the other kids. And when I started
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  Speaker 3: my research career, that was my primary focus. And I
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: spent hours and hours and hours, you know, watching kids
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  Speaker 3: at school in the at kindergarten, at recess. And we
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: were very focused, of course, on the kids who were
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  Speaker 3: kind of off by themselves because that's what shy kids
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  Speaker 3: tend to do when they're feeling nervous and they don't
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  Speaker 3: play with other kids. And over time, we found that
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  Speaker 3: there seemed to be some other kids who were off
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  Speaker 3: by themselves. And these were the kids that seemed quite
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  Speaker 3: happy to be there. They would play with something and
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  Speaker 3: they didn't seem upset. They didn't seem unhappy. And if
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: someone came over and said, come play with me, they
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: were happy to do that. And when that was finished,
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  Speaker 3: they just toddled back and kept playing by themselves whether
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: it was you know something in the sandbox or doing
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: a puzzle or reading and then it just sort of
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: slowly over time got us more interested in like the
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: different reasons why people might choose to spend time by
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  Speaker 3: themselves and of course we were originally interested in these
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  Speaker 3: shy and anxious kids who they spend time by themselves
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  Speaker 3: mostly because they're scared or you know hesitant or anxious
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  Speaker 3: about being with other people so it's kind of like
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  Speaker 3: an escape right they want to play but they're kind
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  Speaker 3: of scared so it's more like they're avoiding something and
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  Speaker 3: end up alone as opposed to really wanting to to
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  Speaker 3: spend time alone. And so we got much more interest
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  Speaker 3: in these kids who seem to be quite content and
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  Speaker 3: enjoy that. And that kind of sparked my interest. And
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  Speaker 3: I was surprised how little we knew about that, especially
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: a number of years ago. Finally, over the last 10
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: years or so, I would say there's been a huge
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: uptick in people's interest and experiences of solitude and being alone.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: And certainly the COVID-19 pandemic put a bright spotlight on,
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  Speaker 3: you know, both, you know, particularly negative experiences of, of
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: spending time alone. I'm happy to talk more about that.
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  Speaker 3: And that's kind of what piqued my interest and it
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  Speaker 3: just kept growing and growing and growing. And we started
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  Speaker 3: looking across different age periods and different experiences and across
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: different cultures and it just kind of exploded into something
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  Speaker 3: that drove my research for years to come afterwards.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: And is social anxiety in kids about.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Genetics is it about experiences is it about environment or
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: is it about something else or is it a combination.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah so before you said combination I was just going
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: to say yes to all of what you were saying
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  Speaker 3: um and i mean we've learned quite a bit about
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  Speaker 3: shyness and social anxiety you know by doing research and
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: i've done a lot of work with parents and so
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  Speaker 3: you know we get asked that question all the time
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  Speaker 3: like you know why is my child like this and
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  Speaker 3: what can i do to change it and i think
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  Speaker 3: it's really important you know for parents to understand that
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  Speaker 3: you know some of this is biology and some of
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  Speaker 3: it is genetic so you know in a way that
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  Speaker 3: i would explain it to parents i would say that
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  Speaker 3: some kids come into the world with a nervous system
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  Speaker 3: that's kind of it's like tightly coiled, like a spring,
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: you know? And if you've got a spring that's tightly coiled,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: then it's ready to go off at any time. And
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: it's almost like their nervous system is like that when
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: it comes to social stuff. So it's like their nervous
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  Speaker 3: system is telling them at any moment, something scary is
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: going to come around the corner. And, you know, and
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: so even when they're not with other people, They're already
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: primed to kind of go off right now. That doesn't
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: mean that this is necessarily going to be a problem
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: because all the other things that you talked about, what
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: kind of parents we have, how we interact with them,
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: our friends, our experiences at school, we play sports, we
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: get into music, right? All these other things shape how
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: they're going to learn to cope with that initial spring
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: going off. And so, yeah, it's this huge combination of
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: all these things. It's quite complicated. And so, yes, you know,
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: kids come into the world with different, you know, biologies,
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: but biology is not destiny, as Freud famously said. And
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: so everything else is just as important.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: And what about you when you were a kid?
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: How would you, how would grown-up you, professor you, how
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: would you– analyze eight-year-old you or describe eight-year-old you?
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah. People, especially when my career was more focused on shyness,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: people always used to say, oh, were you a shy kid?
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  Speaker 3: Is that where that interest came from? I must say,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: I have a large group of students who work with me.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Over the years, given what I study, I would say
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: I've tended to attract a larger proportion of you know,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: relatively shy or quiet or socially anxious students. And so
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: we certainly have a lab that is, you know, you know,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: a lot of people are what they study in terms of,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: you know, psychology. So it's a reasonable question to ask.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: I don't think, I don't recall being particularly shy when
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: I was young. I don't feel particularly nervous around other people. Um,
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: and so that part of it wasn't for me, but
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I think, and what I've come to learn as I've
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: gotten older is that I think when I was younger,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: I didn't give myself enough time alone, not because I
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: was shy and I needed it, but because people need
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: solitude just as a place to restore and take the
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: edge off of their emotions and reset and kind of,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: you know, recharge for what's next. And I was a
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: busy kid. And I would run from one thing to
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: the other and always wanted to be around people. And
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: I think I would have benefited more from a little
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: more timeouts, but good timeouts. And as I've gotten older,
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I've come to understand that, embrace that. And now I
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: make sure I make that a priority for my own well-being.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: How does, if at all, Professor, how does introversion intersect.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: With all this stuff?
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: So, I mean, introversion and extroversion, it's obviously a term
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: that has gained a lot of use just in popular culture.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: And I would say it's largely... oversimplified or even misunderstood
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: it's commonly thought that you know introverts just want to
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: be alone all the time and extroverts just want to
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: be around people all the time um and that might
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: be one component one facet one one part of what
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: it's like on the introversion and extroversion dimension but of
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: course it also encompasses a whole bunch of other kinds
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: of stuff it's it's how active you are it's how
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: much you want to be rewarded versus fearing punishment it's
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: it's you know, your attention, it's how impulsive you are.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: So there's all these other things, but everyone seems to
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: focus on like introverts want to stay home with their
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: cats and extroverts want to go out and, you know,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: and dance. And the other thing I think.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: That's... Tiff, you straddle, sorry, prof, you straddle that. You
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: got one foot in each camp.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: You're a.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Is an ambivert a thing, or is that a term
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: that somebody made up?
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: Thank you for saying that, because that's my next point.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Most people assume that everyone is either an introvert or
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: an extrovert. Of course, these are not categories. This is
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: a dimension. If we scored introversion versus extroversion on a
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: 100-point scale, let's just pretend where 100 is the most
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: introverted you could be, the raging extroverts, and you know,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: one was the cat people, then most people.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: That's it. Cat people are weird. That's going to be
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the title of the show too.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: I'm in trouble now. I have three cats, so I
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: can say that. The, the, most people would fall in
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: the middle. Somewhere between 40 and 60, about 75% of
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: people would be in the middle of that distribution. So
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: most people are somewhat introverted and somewhat extroverted. And it
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: depends on the situation. And it depends on the time
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: of day and what they're doing and what's going on.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: There's very few people that are so extreme. But we
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: kind of just label everyone as either one or the
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: other and assume that that's going to tell us everything
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: about them. And I think that's just kind of silly.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: We're much more complicated than one trait. You can be
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: extroverted and have so many other characteristics that make you
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: different from any other person whose score is just as
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: high on the extroversion score. So I think that's a
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: real oversimplification.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Tiff, what do you think I am and what do
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: you think most people think I am?
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I think you're very similar to me. I think you
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: come across as extremely extroverted, but I think you're very
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: much introverted.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny, Prof, because I have very public-facing work, right?
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: So like this. So this is five days a week.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: My job is corporate speaking, so I'm standing in front
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: of audiences 100 times a year talking to people.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I'm on other people's shows.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: I do. Let me, let me ask you something. So
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: when you, so you're, I'm going to guess you, please
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong, that when you're, you've done
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: this enough now that you don't get nervous about being
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: in front of people. You're not self-conscious about it. You're
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: not worrying about it beforehand or ruminating about it afterwards. But,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: and again, this is me just guessing. So when you
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: do that for a bit too long, you just get tired,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: but not like even more than physically tired. It's like your,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: your brain gets tired. It's like your, the term I
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: would use is your social battery gets used up. And
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: the only way that that's going to get recharged is
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: if you go off and remove yourself from the stimulation
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: that you get from being around other people. And that's
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: the classic model of what introverts and extroverts do, right?
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: An extrovert is someone who, when they want to rev
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: up and get energy, they go out and they go
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: where the action is. They go out and go around people.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: They're looking for stimulation. They're looking for something new to do,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: some activity that gives them energy. And in contrast, when
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: they're alone, it's kind of, like aversive it's draining for
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: them they hate being alone right we can certainly talk
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: about that because that's a topic i'm quite interested in
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: introverts are the opposite right they they can go and
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: be around other people it's not that you're going to
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: be nervous or anxious about it but it just wipes
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: them out and after a while they need to go
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: off by themselves and that is what is going to
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: recharge them stepping off of the stage out of the
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: spotlight into a place where they can recoup and and rejuvenate.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah I feel like if you knew my whole story,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: you'd want to study me and bring me in the
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: lab and tie me down. Because it's up in here, right?
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: It's a shit fest.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: It's like a monkey on a unicycle juggling a banana,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: an orange and a deck of cards.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: So I.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I live by myself, and I've lived by
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: myself pretty much forever.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: I don't drink.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I don't smoke. I've never drunk, never smoked, never used drugs.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: I'm almost a social misfit. I can do the social
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: thing really well, but as you suggest, I'm like, oh,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I've got to go to a dinner.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: The dinner's probably going to go from 7 till midnight
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: because everyone's going to have entree, soup, main course, fucking cheese.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: And biscuits sweets and 300.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Wines and then talk till they get kicked out I'm
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: like I will get there at 7 30 I will
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: leave at the latest nine very it's all very strategic
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: and I can be awesome for an.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Hour and a half yeah then.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I go and i'm like it's like and it's not
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: that they're bad people or it's not that it's not
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: a nice thing but yeah i have that yeah it's
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: like that social.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Battery where yeah i yeah.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I love being alone but i also enjoy connecting with people.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, first of all, shouldn't that be okay?
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Shouldn't it be okay to say to people, I love you,
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: you're great, I'm having a great time hanging out with you,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: but now I need to go up and spend a
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: little time alone. Like we really need to normalize asking
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: for solitude. And because, I mean, humans need social connection.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: You just said you like being around other people. Of course,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: you're human. You need socially evolved humans. It's a basic
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: human need to be around other people.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: People.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: We need real connection, not just on a screen. We
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: need to touch. We need to hug.
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: We need to look into people's eyes, not through a
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: screen like we need. That's part of humanity. Right.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: But.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: We also need some time alone. And like life is
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: about finding the balance between those two things and and
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: the balance that works for you. I would say one
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: like core message that I would shout from the rooftops
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: is that everybody needs social connection. Everybody needs time alone.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: But the combination of that is going to be different
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: for everyone. And that's okay, right? And that we shouldn't prescribe,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't say everybody needs this number of hours alone
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: and this number of hours with others every day, because
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: that's right for one person, but it's not right for everyone.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: It's like, it's a Goldilocks thing, right? Like sometimes it's
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: too hot, sometimes it's too cold, and sometimes it's just right.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Everyone has to find their own just right, what that
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: combination is. And, you know, Craig, you're just right, might
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: be an hour and a half at a party and
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: then go home and be alone for four hours and
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: then you'll feel good. And someone else might be six
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: hours at the party and then it can only stand
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: being alone for an hour and then they're okay.
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: So I will say this, we all need both. people
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: have general tendencies to probably prefer one over the other
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: and whichever one you prefer less we could probably give
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: each other ourselves a little push to do each that
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: thing that we don't like as as a little bit
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: more because there's something to be gained and there's benefits
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: from both and yeah people have tendency towards one until
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: the other and we all have to find the right
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: balance but you could probably push yourself like if you're
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: a raging extrovert then There are some simple ways you
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: can increase the enjoyment and benefits you get from spending
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: some time alone. And I'm happy to talk about those.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And if you are introverted, you might think that you're
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: not going to have a good time at a party,
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: but we are terrible. Humans are awful at predicting our
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: emotions when it comes to social situations. We suck at that.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: We think we're going to have a bad time at
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: a party. And then we go and we have a
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: good time at a party. There's a great study where
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: people are asked how they think they would feel about
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: talking to a stranger on a train. They all say
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: it's going to be awful. Then they, we make them
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: and then they feel better afterwards.
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Like we humans get, you know, so don't, don't trust
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: your brain when it says, I don't think I'm going
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: to have a good time at this party. Go and
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: push yourself to get that social connection, but also don't
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: trust your brain when it says, I hate being alone
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: because you also need some of that.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like social interaction is, Yeah, there are a
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: lot of variables around it.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: You're right.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: It's context-dependent. It's also dose-dependent. It's like training, like food,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: like drugs. How big is the dose? For me, 90 minutes,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: you know, it's good.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: That's a good dose.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: You figured that out, but good for you. That's what
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: we need to do, right? But it's also... I mean,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: when it comes to solitude, like extroverts hate solitude, right?
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: It's not stimulating enough for them and it's aversive. There's
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: a famous study from 2014 where a researcher in the
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: US made college students sit in a room for 15
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: minutes with no technology, just like alone with their thoughts,
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: just on a chair with the door closed. The majority
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: of the participants would rather and did self-administer a painful
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: electric shock than do that for 15 minutes.
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: That's how much they hated it. So we know that,
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, maybe that tells us more about how much
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: we hate being without our phone, or maybe it tells
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: us more about, you know, we don't like being bored
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: for 15 minutes, but, you know, there is good evidence
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: to suggest that a lot of people find solitude unpleasant
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: and aversive, but they don't have to, right? There are
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: lots of ways to make it better.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I think also context, as you spoke of, it depends. Like,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I don't love... restaurants as an environment. They're not bad.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: I don't hate them.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: But I could sit at a cafe with Tiff and
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: her bloke, Scott, and talk for three hours and really
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: enjoy it, depending on what we're talking about. Sure.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: And nothing's like, I've got to get out of here.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think it's a little bit about the company,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: a little bit about what we're doing.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I don't like.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Superficial, bullshitty, meaningless conversation over the top of loud noise
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: with people who are pissed.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: And by pissed, I don't mean angry. I mean drunk.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: That's an Australian term.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you with me?
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Got you in the context, yeah.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, yeah, I think there's, yeah, and if I'm
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: engaged in something that I find meaningful and interesting and valuable, yeah,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: time bends, you know, it's like, Yeah, an hour is
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: like five minutes, but an hour can also be like
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: three days, depending on.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Who you're talking to or what it's about.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: Do you know?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: All right, tell us about loneliness.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Tell us about being in the middle of a sea
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: of people but feeling lonely.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: How does that happen?
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I think it's really important to make the distinction between
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: loneliness and solitude because a lot of people use those
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: words interchangeably. And actually one thing I've learned going, you know,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: collaborating and working with people in different places who speak
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: different languages is there are several languages that have used
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: the same word for solitude and loneliness. So I'll go
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: to try to make that point. And, you know, for example, in,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: in Italy, there's the same word that they use in Japan.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: It's the same word that they use. And so, you know, it's,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: We have difficulty separating those terms and we have two
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: different words for them. You can imagine how difficult that
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: would be if you only can pull the meaning out
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: of it based on the context of the rest of
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: the words. These aren't two separate words. So let me
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: give you a very fast and hopefully straightforward way to
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: distinguish those two things. So loneliness is, well, I mean,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: loneliness sucks. Loneliness is a bad feeling that we get
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: when there is a mismatch between the social connection that
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: we want and the social connection that we have. And
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: it's important to note that that's both like how often
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: you're hanging out with people and you're spending time, but
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: it's also like the depth of that, the intimacy, the
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: connection part. So if we are lacking, if there's a
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: discrepancy between how close we want in our relationships and
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: how much time we get to spend with people that
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: we have that closeness with. Then loneliness is the negative
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: feelings that come up when that happens. And it's actually
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: kind of like from an evolutionary perspective, it's like an
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: alarm bell that goes off inside of us and says,
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: go out and find some fine people. Because, of course,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: you know, for the earliest humans, if they weren't in
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: a group, they were going to die. right when you
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: need to feed the other humans for protection for food
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: for mating all the reasons why humans live in you
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: know societies right and so loneliness yeah exactly because it
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: was it helped them to survive and then they and
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: then thrive and so loneliness is this terrible feeling that
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: we get when we're not meeting our need to be
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: with other people psychology we call that the need to
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: belong which is like the leftover of that evolutionary path
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: telling us we need to be around other people and
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: And I mean, loneliness is so bad for us, right?
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: Like it's not just bad for our well-being. It's not
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: just bad for our mental health. There's this crazy study.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: It was released by the Surgeon General's office in the
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: US about five years ago. And they did a huge
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: review of the impact of long-term loneliness and social isolation
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: on your physical health. And they found that your risk
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: for mortality, it's as bad to be chronically lonely and
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: isolated as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Which is just crazy. And so, of course, people, as
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: someone who studies the positive side of solitude, I always
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: get asked, oh, is the loneliness epidemic overblown? Is this
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: really such a big deal? Does this really need our attention? Yes,
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: this is a big deal. Yes, it needs our attention.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Humans need other humans. We should be doing everything we
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: can to promote social connection and reduce loneliness.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: But.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: loneliness is not solitude. And as you opened up this
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: rant of mine by saying, uh, you could feel lonely
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: in a group full of people. Like you might go
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: to one of those parties where you have the super
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: superficial discussion with pissed people.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Uh, and, uh, well done, well done.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: You are looking around and everyone else seems to be
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: laughing and they're drinking and you're not drinking and they're, uh,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: taking drugs and you're not taking drugs. And they're all
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: sharing all of these wonderful experiences and laughing and, and, and,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: you know, they got their arm around each other and
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: you might leave feeling more lonely than when you got there.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And so loneliness is not just being with other people
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: or not. And of course we can be alone and
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: solitude you've described and not feel lonely at all. Right.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: And so if, if loneliness is this bad feeling, I
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: would say solitude is a place. And solitude is a
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: place where you could feel lonely. Some people do feel
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: lonely when they're in solitude, particularly if that solitude is unchosen.
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Like if we're not choosing to spend that time alone,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: if we've lost that autonomy, we've lost that control. Of course,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: it's going to, you know, anytime we lose control, we
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: don't like it.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: And if we're forced away from social interaction, it's going
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: to make us feel sad and lonely. No question. Right.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: But if we're choosing to spend time alone, we're investing
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: in that time. We find it enjoyable. We find it meaningful.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: We are engaged. This is not loneliness. This is unlocking
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: a door to opportunities for making us happy and well-adjusted
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: and growth. There's so many good things that we can
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: find in solitude that have nothing to do with loneliness.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Now, Prof. Tiff, feel free to chime in on this
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: as well after the prof because I feel he probably
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: knows more than you, but I'd still like your, I mean,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: not about a lot of things.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't make that assumption. I'm definitely not making that assumption.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I think you might have both of us covered on
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: this particular topic.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: If you don't, you've been a shit researcher. Fair enough.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: All right. Now, like it or not, want it or not,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: for better or worse.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Um rob uh people some people are using ai as
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: i use the term loosely friend companion yes emotional support
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: system blah blah blah and ready set go Yeah.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: So I mean, the larger issue around technology, technology is
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: like an existential threat to solitude, right? Because now you
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: can be physically alone, but like literally having a FaceTime
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: conversation with someone on your phone with 10 people, right?
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: And so, of course, this could... there is some good
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: that can come from that. Like, I don't wanna just,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I don't wanna talk in absolutes, right? Because this is
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: never the case, right? So for example, if you're alone,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: not by choice, you know, you're on a, you've been
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: having a new job, you moved to a new place
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: and you miss your family and you're lonely for your family.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: You can use technology to talk to them every day.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: That's wonderful. That's going to help maintain that relationship and
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: strengthen it. When you're using technology as a tool to
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: help you keep connected with people that you already have
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: a real connection with, of course, this is fantastic and
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: you want to do that. The problem comes when, I guess,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: when people don't like being alone, they might use technology,
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I would call it to social wash their alone time.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: So if you are alone.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Social wash. What does that mean? Unpack that.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: What's that?
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: So social washing, I mean, I don't know if you,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: have you ever heard the term like greenwashing where like
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: products will be advertised as if they're environmentally friendly and
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: they're trying to sell them based on, right. So, so
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: I just, I just stole that and changed it to
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: social washing because what some people do in solitude is
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: they'll do everything they can to put a social component
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: to their solitude. They'll text people, they'll FaceTime people, their comment,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: they'll go onto social media or now even they'll talk
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: to an AI. I will come back to that. I promise.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: But there's a danger.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I'll get a professor from Canada to come on their
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: show and just keep it company.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: We don't actually need you. We're just both lonely.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: So thanks for supporting us.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: I'm happy to be part of the conversation. I mean,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: there's a few different dangers of people. Have you ever
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: heard the term social snacking?
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: No, but I can guess what it might be.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Yes. We know to have a healthy diet when you're eating,
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: you need to have a variety of different food groups
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: and protein and carbohydrates and vitamins and et cetera. That's
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: how you get the nutrients that you need and then
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: you grow and you can survive. If you're feeling hungry,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: you can eat chips. In the short term, the chips
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: will make you feel a little bit less hungry, but
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: they're really not good for you. They're not going to
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: help you or nourish you in any way. If you
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: only ate chips for too long, you would have problems.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: So interacting with technology, everything in moderation, of course, no problem,
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: have some chips. So now apply this to social interaction.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: If you are feeling a little bit lonely and you
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: go comment on a post or you text somebody or
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: you chat with your AI, then you're getting that short-term
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: satisfaction of your craving for social interaction, but it's not
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: good quality. There's no protein in there. You're not holding
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: someone's hand. You're not looking to someone's eye.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: And, but, and especially if doing that, it's going to
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: stop you and take away from the time that you
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: would go out and, and do that. Right. So how
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: easy it is now to, you know, to interact socially,
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: to order things online, to order your food online, not
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: have to talk to anybody, not go even speak to
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: a barista when you're a flat white, like, how can you, like,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: if you're doing all these things without people, you're, you're,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: you're missing out on those micro interactions of social connection
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: that are good for us and the deeper ones. And
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: so the social snacking is dangerous because if we're just
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: getting our little bursts of social interaction using technology or
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: talking to an AI, then we're not getting the real stuff.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: And over time, we're going to get socially malnourished because
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: we're not having good quality, high input into us for
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: our social connection.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I wonder what the difference is physiologically in terms of
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: what's happening with your nervous system and endocrine system and respiratory.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: And all those things.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I wonder what's happening differently from a physiological point of
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: view when you talk to a friend on Zoom for
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: an hour versus talk to the same friend at a
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: coffee table where you can touch the other person if
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: you want to give them a hug. I wonder.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Same person, let's say identical conversation about the same topic.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I wonder what the difference in terms of benefits are.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I just instinctively, intuitively think there's going to be some
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: kind of benefit meeting with that person in the 3D version.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true. And I mean, it does
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: seem intuitive, doesn't it? Like, you'd think there's something about
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: you mentioned touch, like, like smell, like just being in
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: the presence of someone, you know, as opposed to energy. Yeah, like,
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: just like, I mean, this is how humans evolve. We
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: didn't evolve socially talking to each other through any kind
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: of screen. We're in the real world, like we were
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: right there. And even if, I mean, zoom is, I mean,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: I guess it's as good as we can get so
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: far in terms of at least you can, there's a
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: visual cue, but even that it's a two dimensional visual
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: cue and it's, it's not as easy to pick up
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: on stuff. And maybe you're just seeing part of a
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: face and you're not getting posture and you're not getting
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: physical contact. And it's something, but it's definitely not the
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: same as the real thing. And I think you're right
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: on our nervous systems. And we just respond differently when
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: we're in people's presence.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: And there's tons of research to suggest that just being
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: in the presence of other people, like we generally experience
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: those moments more positively. It boosts our mood, even if
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: we don't think it's going to, as I mentioned before,
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: just being around other people, brief, even micro interactions, um,
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: ordering coffee and chatting with the person you're ordering your
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: coffee from. It just, it gives you a little boost
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: of your mood and get enough of those. It's really
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: healthy for you.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Tiff, do you have any sense of what is the
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: right dose for you in terms of alone time and
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: non-alone time? Or do you, are you impacted? Do you
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: get to the point where you're like, fuck, I've got
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: to be alone? Or fuck, I need a hug? Yes. Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: And when you were talking earlier about kind of that
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: social being out socially, I was reflecting even just the
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: last few days in Queensland, being in a room of
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: 50 people where there's one conversation and one point of
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: attention was easy. Being going to dinner where there's 40
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: conversations and noise and background and switching of that attention
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: feels exhausting and Yes. So I think, yeah, that context
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: can come into play as well. So I think it's
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: very dynamic for me and I have to be a
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: bit intuitive and a bit aware of it.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: I think you and I are a little bit the
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: same in that kind of the way that we like
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: to socialise.
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: It's like almost like instalments with people that.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: We want to be around.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, because like my job and to a lesser extent,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: but yours is growing, you know, is.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Because my job is, well, you've got to talk to
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: this group. It's at a dinner.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: We want you to be there before the dinner and
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: we want you to sit through the dinner and then
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: talk after the dinner.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to eat the dinner. I don't want
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: to come.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: But you've got to come, you know, and then you've
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: got to sit and talk to five people you'll never
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: see again.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Now I'm realising how selfish I sound.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: But before I do it, before I do a gig, sorry, prof,
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: I want to be in the right head space and
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: the right energy and sitting at a table talking to
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: strangers about, you know, whatever.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: It's not optimal for me in terms of standing up
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: there and being the best me for them.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Sorry, prof.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Go ahead. No, no.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: My apologies for interrupting. I just want to say like,
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: good for you. Like you have self-awareness. You have come
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: to understand what works for you as a human. And
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: you are prepared to try to structure your work and
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: your life and your off work time in a way
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: that is going to allow you to thrive based on
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: the kind of person that you are. And like, that's
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: a good model. I think that's exactly the kind of
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: conscious self-determined action that we should be encouraging in people.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: And you've come to understand and you have identified that
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: if you don't get enough time by yourself, you don't
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: feel good.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: And I want to talk about that because that's something
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: that we've really become interested in over the last few years.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of research and we know what
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: happens when we get too much solitude. Right. I already
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: talked about it. You spend time alone. It's not wanted.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: You feel lonely. You feel bad. And loneliness is really,
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: as we said, it's like almost like spending too much
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: time alone. And that's what happens to you. But I
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: was surprised when I started getting interested in this a
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: few years ago. We haven't studied what happens if you
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: don't get enough time alone.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: So it's almost like a mirror image of loneliness. Right. So,
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: you know, it's a discrepancy between the time alone that
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: you would like and the quality of that time and
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: the amount of time alone that you actually get. And
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: when I set out to study this, I was amazed
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: not only that had we not studied it before, but
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: there's not a word in the English language to describe.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I know the word.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Do you know the word? Tell me.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: A loneliness.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I made that up. I know.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: I created that word. I was going to talk to
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: you about that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Well done, dude.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: It didn't exist to describe that phenomenon. Yeah.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Has that been embraced now, that term?
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Is that i yes sorry yeah it's a thing now
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: i think but that's but one of the things that
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: we wanted to do was to make it a thing
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: so that people had a word to use to describe
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: those feelings and they could identify them themselves because what
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: we found is that people who feel a lonely who
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: don't feel like they have enough time alone. They're more grumpy.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: They're more sad. They feel more stressed, but they may
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: not even know why. So they can't do anything about
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: it because they don't have, they didn't discover what you
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: already had discovered, which is that you need to nourish
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: yourself with that solitary time or else there's going to
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: be a price to pay in your body and in
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: your mind where it's not going to function the way
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: that you want it to. And what's really cool is like,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: we studied this for a few years now. And then
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: other people are now starting to study it and they're
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: applying it to different areas and, and, you know, domains
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: that we, we didn't even think about.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: So for example, there's a psychologist in the U S
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: who studies romantic relationships and they were interested in what
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: happens if one member of a couple feels lonely, right?
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Like what happens if there's a mismatch between like the
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: social expectations of one of the members of the couple
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: and the other. And, So what they found was that, well,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: first of all, like you sort of blame your partner
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: if you're not getting enough time alone and you blame
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: them so much. They did this experiment where they had,
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: they separated the members of the couples and then on
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: a computer screen of like a voodoo doll would show up.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: And they said, this voodoo doll represents your partner. Press
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: this button to stick pins in them. How are you
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: feeling about them right now? And what they found, it's
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: just kind of a cool thing. How did they get
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: ethics approval for that, really? So what they found was
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: that the member of the couple who felt more lonely
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: stuck more penis in their partner, voodoo doll, right? So
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: that was like an unconscious manifestation of their anger towards
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: their partner. But I mean, it sort of makes intuitive sense, right?
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: Like if the person you're spending the most time with
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: doesn't understand that you need some alone time, doesn't understand
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: that you love them and it's not a reflection of
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: a poor relationship that you need to go recharge your
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: battery sometimes, that could cause anger and resentment. And the
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: cool thing is if you actually go and get that
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: alone time, the next time you interact with someone, it's
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: going to be more positive. right so you could there's
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: really good experimental evidence to show this so you can
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: say to your partner now give me some time alone
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: it'll be good for both of us i promise when
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: i come back where it's going to help our relationship
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: like it's there's a literal payoff you know sort of
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: for doing that right and then there was some recent
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: research in japan where like they found that managers who
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: felt lonely were more harsh with their employees right so
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: it's these kinds of this phenomenon seems to be playing
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: out in all these different kinds of domains. And, and
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: I think it's, I mean, for me, that's like super
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: exciting because this is a message I think that people
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: need to hear that it, you know, it reinforces what
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: I said before, we should be able to ask for
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: time alone. And there actually is, you know, a cost
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: if we don't, if we need that and we don't
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: get it, it's going to make us feel crappy, just
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: like not exactly in the same way, but just like
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: loneliness makes us feel crappy. You know, a loneliness also
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: makes us feel sad and stressed and angry.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so smart.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: And it's really, you know, theory of mind, trying to
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: understand how others experience stuff and knowing that.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Like, I need time alone. By the way, not because
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: I don't love.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: You, not because I don't like being with you, not
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: because you're not my person.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: This is just how I work.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: But I think the problem is, you know, to one
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: person it represents a healthy choice or behaviour to go
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: just chill out, be alone, and to someone else it
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: might be perceived as a form of rejection. So you've
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: got the one behaviour creating these two different or being
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: viewed through these two different windows, right?
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: And this is the.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: It's like, no, I love you. You're my person. I
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: just don't want to be with you 24-7. It's actually
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: not about you. It's just about my nervous system.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: It's about my mind.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: It should be okay, right?
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Shouldn't it be okay to say that, right? It shouldn't
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: be okay. You shouldn't have to make up an excuse
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: on a Friday night when your friends ask you to
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: go out and you say, sorry, I have to stay
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: home and wash my hair. You shouldn't have to do that.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: You should say, I love you guys and I want
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: to hang out, but tonight I'm going to just stay
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: home and put on my reading socks and curl up
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: in front of the fire with my three cats and
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: read a book.
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: So, like, and that should be fine.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Tiff, I know you're nodding your head because now feel
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: free to edit this out. But I know that when
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: you first started seeing Scott, you.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Were like, fuck men. I don't want a bloke. I
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: don't want a relationship. I'm good.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be single, independent, powerful forever, and you
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: can all get fucked. And then you meet him and
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: you're like, well, maybe not, right? But even... But you
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: were very cautious about how much time you spent with him.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, he can stay a night, but
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: he can't stay four nights in a row because that's
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: way too much whatever.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Has that been a real.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Shift for you where you've had to adapt and adjust
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: and shift around that?
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it has been and some of that I feel
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: like has happened quite naturally but I still have, I
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: always have that awareness when I make decisions on, you know,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: what does my timetable look like, what decisions am I
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: making and how much do I say yes to. Yeah,
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: just always thinking about the time I have unaccounted for.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: It's important to me to sometimes not have a plan
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: for a day because I will use all of my
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: energy in the days in the lead up. And then
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: I will get to a day and be like, yeah,
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: I need that. Like D what's the word?
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: De-stress.
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: De-stress.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: De-compress.
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: De-compress. Much better. That's why you're you.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: But don't you think it's funny how, We feel compelled
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: when people say, what do you got on today? What
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: are you up to today? We need to have a list.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: What about fuck all or I don't know? I don't know.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I'll get back to you tomorrow once the day's over.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: But right now, I don't know. What's that about, Prof?
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's also like there's all these negative
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: stereotypes about wanting to do nothing or wanting to spend
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: time by yourself. Like, you know, people still feel funny
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: going to eat at a restaurant by themselves or going
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: to a movie by themselves or saying I need a
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: few hours of doing nothing. Like society seems to have,
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: you know, still a bias against that kind of stuff.
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's starting to change and certainly like, you know,
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: there's more of an understanding that there are lots of
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: different approaches to this stuff and people are different when
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: it comes to that kind of stuff. I mean, yeah, it's, it's,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: it just takes time. I, I, that's why I talk
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: about shouting from the rooftops that it should be okay
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: to spend time alone. Cause it's a bit of, you know,
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: you're fighting against, you know, the, the bias, the negative
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: reputation that solitude has had for years. And, and as
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: I've already said, like some of that is well-earned, right.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: There's some kinds of solitude that are unhealthy. And solitude
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: can lead to loneliness. This is like, you know, so there's,
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: there's a nuance to it, but the nuance is not
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: always considered. And if you paint it with two broad strokes,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: then people just historically have said solitude is bad. Therefore it,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: you know, we shouldn't think highly of people who spend
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: time alone and we should, you know, have these sort
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: of reputational biases against it so that people don't do
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: it as much.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Um, Now we're stumbling towards the finish line. I don't
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: know if this is a particularly, uh, particularly, um, academic
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: or scientific term, but shyness. What role does, you know,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: being a shy person, how does this intersect with this discussion?
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Well, so I'm, as I said, kind of earlier on
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: shy people who are shy. So, I mean, the way
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: that I would define shyness, and again, this is a
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: personality trait. So, and it definitely is a scientific term that,
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: that has been studied. Um, I think there's also a
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: lot of misunderstandings about shyness because you shyness has, you know,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: you can measure shyness on the zero to a hundred scale,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: just like we talked about introversion and extroversion. And some people,
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: you know, say if you, you know, how shy do
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: you have to be on that scale before we actually
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: call you shy? Like, it's not like, yeah, Most people
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: are in the middle there. Sometimes they feel shy in
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: certain situations and others not so much. I think there's
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: a lot of misunderstanding of that particular term. I also
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: think there's a reputational problem with that term because people
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: think of people who are shy as being anxious all
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: the time and too docile and not assertive enough. Of course,
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: You know, the world tends to bend towards being sociable
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: and outgoing as a desired trait. But like even from
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: an evolutionary standpoint, it's probably good for our species that
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: not everybody is jumping in without thinking and, you know,
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: hugely productive. ragingly extroverted and sociable, it's probably good for
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: humans as a species that some people are a little
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: bit more cautious, are a little bit more sensitive to
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: threats in the environment, are more likely to take a
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: quieter approach to interactions, are more likely to think a
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: little bit before they act. It's good that we have
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: that range of personalities in our species. That's a good thing.
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: And so we need to embrace all the sides of it. So, again,
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: talking to parents because, you know, shyness in childhood is
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: something that parents worry about. And I always try to
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: reassure them because in almost every case, we're talking about
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: someone who just needs a gentle push to go do
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: what they need to do.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: So if they have that nervous system that I talked
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: to you about before, where they feel a little bit hesitant.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: to meet new people or a little bit hesitant to
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: talk in front of the teacher in front of a
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: situation where they feel like everyone's kind of watching them
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: or they're being evaluated these are common things that evoke
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: feelings of shyness among people who tend to be shy
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: it's okay to have those initial feelings you're born the
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: way you're born your nervous system is wired the way
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: that it's it's wired We're not going to change people's
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: nervous systems, nor should we try to. But what we
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: should try to do is equip our kids and adults
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: with the kinds of coping strategies that they need so
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: that that initial, I'm scared, doesn't stop them from doing
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: the kind of stuff they need to do, like go
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: to school and make friends and sometimes talk and show
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: and tell and go to a job interview and go
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: to a party and be able to have a conversation
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: with someone. And that's when the line between shyness and
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: social anxiety starts. starts to be important right because shyness
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: is a personality trait we all have you know half
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: it to a certain degree social anxiety can be a
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: crippling you know mental health problem where it's so extreme
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: that it stops you from doing tasks that humans are
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: required to do in society right you're too scared to
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: go outside you're too scared to go to school you're
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: too scared to interact with someone, you're anxious, you're worried,
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: it's interfering with your quality of life. And that's a
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: really important distinction to make. And that's why shyness is
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: not the same thing as social anxiety.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: So thank you. That explains it. So the subtitle of
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: your book, by the way, everyone, the book's called The
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Joy of Solitude. The subtitle is How to Reconnect with
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yourself in an Overconnected World.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: Unpack that sentence for me.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: Sure. So for me, Solitude is a place where we
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: can learn a lot about ourselves and help ourselves a lot.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: And there's, you know, solitude. is a place, and I
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: mentioned before about stepping off stage. I think that's one
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: of the best metaphors to explain solitude. There's a freedom
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: in being out of the spotlight. There's a freedom in
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: not having to pay attention to what everyone else is
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: saying and how they're saying it and their posture and
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: their body language and monitoring your own words and how
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: you're saying it and trying to keep up with the
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: conversation and pay attention. It's exhausting, as we've already said.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: everybody needs a little bit of time where they can
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: step off the stage and they have the freedom to,
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: you know, exhale and not be concerned about what everyone
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: is doing and have some privacy and be able to
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: have some autonomy, choose what they want to do and
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: feel comfortable to choose the things that they would want
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: to do without having to worry about other people's thoughts
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: and responses and reactions. And so solitude really does provide
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: that place. It had so many benefits, but we haven't
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: even really talked about too much. I mean, there's finally
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: some good research to show that spending time alone will
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: take the edge off of our negative emotions. It helps
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: us to calm down. Um, it's, as I mentioned already,
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: it's a place where we can kind of restore our
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: batteries and recharge and, and, It's also a place for
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: self-discovery and self-exploration, especially for kids and adolescents. We need
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: that time to develop our identity, figure out who we are,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: and Solitude is a great place to do that. It's
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: an incubator for creativity. We get a lot of really
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: new and interesting ideas when we just give ourselves the
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: time and the space to let our minds wander until
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: things bump up against each other and knock out something
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: new that we weren't thinking about before. And so there's
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: all these different kinds of freedoms, right? There's freedoms from
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: the input that we're getting from other people and stressful
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: social situations. But there's also freedom to, right? Freedom to
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: do stuff that we want to do, to engage in
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: activities that we find interesting and enjoyable and are good
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: for our soul. There's so many good things that can
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: come there. And one of the concerns for people who
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: don't give it a chance is they're really missing out, right?
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: And, and it doesn't have to be, I think there's
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: this idea that like, if you want to get benefits
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: from solitude, you need to like unfold the yoga mat
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: and fold your legs and meditate for two hours. And
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: that's the only way to do it. But that's, that's, uh, yeah, that's,
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: it's just not true.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Right. Like if that's the case, I'm in trouble.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: It's a myth. It's, it's zero evidence. I mean, don't
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: get me wrong. Meditation is awesome and it's really good
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: for us, but it's also not for everyone. You know,
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: for some people, it's going to be going for a walk.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: For some people, it's going to be reading a book
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: or listening to music or, you know, or knitting or
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: doing crossword puzzles or whatever. Whatever you find personally engaging
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: and interesting and meaningful for you, do that. And that
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: will open up some of these benefits that I'm talking about.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: And I think while I'm ranting, I'll just keep going.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Another myth is that you need to do it for
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: two hours to get the benefits. And that's also not true, right?
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: There's now very good research. As little as 15 minutes
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: a day has demonstrable lasting positive effects. And 50 minutes,
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: we're all busy. Tiff was talking about her busy schedule
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: and trying to slot things in. And some people are like,
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: I don't have time to do that. 15 minutes is
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: not a big ask. And for some people, that's going
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: to be maybe even feel like it's too long. But
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: that's okay. You don't have to start with 15 minutes.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: Like you need to build up your solitude muscles, right?
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Like go start with five minutes and then, you know,
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: the next day do six and the next day, next
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: week do 10, right? Like you're training for a marathon.
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: You don't run the whole thing the first time you
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: gradually build up, right? Like there's so many different things
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: that we can do to improve those experiences and so
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: that it's not a burden and we're not feeling, you know,
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: that it's so aversive that we want to give ourselves
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: an electric shock instead of sitting alone for 15 minutes.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Like there's, there's good stuff to be mine there that
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: we can use to help ourselves grow and be well.
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: And you just have to put past your initial prediction
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: that you're not going to like it because there's so
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: many different ways that you can do it, that you
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: just find the way that works for you. And then
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: you'll start to get that good stuff. Sorry, that was
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: a terribly long rant, but you did ask me what
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: we could do, so I just launched into it. My apologies. Yes, Tiff.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Did you just stick up?
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: Fist pump. We love a good rant.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, we love a rant.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: This is not really, this is, if this is not
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: my last question, it's my second one.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: Second one.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: So I talk about this Craig Harper developed kind of
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: framework of, versions of us and it's public you, personal you,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: private you, right? And I feel like they're these different,
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: you know, like we open the door to a certain degree,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: depending on where we are, the context, perhaps the role
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: that we're playing in that situation and who we're around
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: and a bunch of other variables, right? So all of
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: us consciously or not have a persona. which is not
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: to say it's fraudulent, but that's the version of us
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: that we want to show to the world. What's the
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: danger in opening that door wider? Like I very much
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: try to and be conscious of in real time, like
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: in this moment right now where we're recording a public thing,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: to be as close to just authentic me. This is
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: what I would say if it was just you and
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: me and Tiff at a cafe. This is, you know,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: it's no different.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: It's not filtered. This is not me trying to create.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: An impression because I think when I can kind of
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: present the most raw, authentic version of me to the world,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: I build more.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Trust, respect, rapport, connection.
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that level of vulnerability. How much of ourselves.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Do we show the world and what are the pros
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: and cons?
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: I know this is not strictly your research.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: No, but you're kind of making it.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: You're smart.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: I think you're making a case for solitude because you're
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: talking about being your authentic self. You talk about your
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: private self and your secret self. But how do you
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: know where your authentic self is until you discover it
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: by being by yourself? Because that's the place where you
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: can first be authentic. It's in solitude that we discover
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: what our private and secret selves are. As you mentioned,
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: I love those terms, by the way. And we find
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: out what's most important to us, what's most central to us,
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: what is driving our behaviors. And then as we layer
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: on the pressures of being in different social situations around
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: different people, then you're right. Then it is a question
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: of how much of that am I going to share?
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: And different situations call for different answers. levels of sharing
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: for sure. Right. Your, your person, your partner, you're going
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: to share almost down to the bone of what that is.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: If you're going for a job interview, the first time
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: you're meeting someone, you're probably not doing that. Right. So,
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: and that's entirely appropriate. There's nothing wrong with that. But
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: I think I love how often you said the word
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: authentic when you were talking about this, because I think
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: there is a way that we can cultivate Being somewhat
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: different in different contexts because different contexts call for different personas.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: And as long as you are authentic in those personas,
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: I think that's what we're aiming for. But again, to
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: bring it back to solitude, we don't know what our
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: authentic self is until we allow ourselves the opportunity alone
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: to self-discover. And to find out what our identity is.
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: And if we're always around people and we're always, you know,
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: that persona is so influenced by those other situations, then
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: I think we end up feeling inauthentic or we don't
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: know who we are. There's no you, you know, at
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: the core of that.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like we live in a time where
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: we're so worried, especially in podcasting and social media and
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: influencers and anyone who's got a platform. We're so fucking
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: preoccupied with our brand and people's perception and how shiny
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: we are and sexy we are and smart we are
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: and how we can leverage this to optimise. It's like,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: fuck all that. It's like I'm, you know, like I'm
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: just going to say what I think and if we
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: have a huge podcast or we have four people, it
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: just is what it is.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: And I think.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously we've been around for nearly 10 years,
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: so we're not doing everything wrong.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: You know, we must do something.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: But that speaks to people, right? You're, you are being
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: your authentic self. And I think people are smart enough
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: to know what that is and to appreciate someone who
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: is always use the word brave enough to do that
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: and do it consistently. And, and they're drawn to that
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: because people want real things. They don't write like, the
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: shiny happy stuff, you know, that you see going through
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: social media. I mean, it's just enough to make you depressed, right?
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Like it's not the real world. People want the real world.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: People want real things. They want real social connection. They
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: want real, you know, they want touch. They want to
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: go deep.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: And, and you can only do that if you are,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: if you're interacting with someone who's being authentic.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love it.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: You're quite good at this. You should maybe do a
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: bit more of it. You should probably do some research.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: I feel like you'd be a good academic.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much. I'll look into that.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see, I mean, give it a go. Give it
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: a go.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: Professor Robert Copland, now.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: The Joy of Solitude, How to Reconnect with Yourself in
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: an Overconnected World.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a very good Christmas present, just saying.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: Perfect.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Where can people find you, follow you, and creepily connect
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: with you?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean, the book should be pretty much everywhere.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: It came out in hardcover about a year ago in November.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: There's a softcover edition that's coming out, so there'll be
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: a little bit of, I hope, a little bit of
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: a media push ahead of that to sort of promote it.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: You can find it on... It's in your local bookstore.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: You can get it online, Amazon and other such places.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: If you'd like to learn more about me and the
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: stuff that I do, just go to robertcopeland.com, which is
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: my website. And you can read about some of the
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: stuff that I do, the research that I do, the
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: people that I work with and the book and other
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: books that I've done. This was a lot of fun.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: I quite enjoyed the conversation. It's definitely, I, you know,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: when you write a book and you go and do press,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: you do a lot of podcasts and you do a
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: lot of interviews and it's very fun. hard not to
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: fall into robot mode where you're getting asked the same
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: questions and having to give the same answers all the time.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: And this was a real breath of fresh air. I
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: appreciate that this was a nice new take on everything
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: and a nice informal conversation. There's a reason why you've
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: been around for 10 years. You're very good at this too.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that. It's mainly Tiff. I just hold on
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: to her coattails. Is that true, Tiff?
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Hey, Rob, we will say goodbye off air. Tiff, thank you.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Thanks, Rob.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: And we'll say goodbye out there. But for the minute, thanks, everyone.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Love your guts.