Latest / WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas / 40. Why Difficult Conversations Improve Our Life + Work Relationships with Erica Courdae and India Jackson

Transcript

40. Why Difficult Conversations Improve Our Life + Work Relationships with Erica Courdae and India Jackson · WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: Do you love difficult conversations?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: I do.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Why?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Because it allows us to better understand our partner, friends, family members, colleagues, and team members.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: And when we're having difficult conversations, it's not about who's right or wrong.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's about understanding someone else's perspective, someone else's lived experiences.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: And when we allow ourselves, when we learn to understand and listen more than we talk, we can create deeper, more meaningful relationships.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: Think about it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you've had a difficult conversation with your partner or past partner, and you find yourself falling in love with them even more because you better understood your partner.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: And as a business and career coach for women of color and allies, I've worked with more leaders, whether it's C-suite executive members, board members, or small business owners, where a key part of your leadership is learning how to communicate and have these conscious conversations.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: Because when you're able to navigate these difficult waters when it comes to conversations, it actually determines how enriching our relationships are, both personally and professionally.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: So you ready to dive deep?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm with my friends and DI consultants Erica Corday and India Jackson of Clause on the Play.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_04: So let's drop the beat.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: Because our ancestors sacrificed so much so we could have this life of choice.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: Now, grab your coffee, tea, andor boba, and let's call your dreams to create your legacy.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, I'm excited.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: I feel so special to have both of you interview me, but we know that I'm not the star, it's all three of us.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm excited for this conversation.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: It is all of us.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited for this.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, thank you for making time and showing up and having just open, spontaneous conversation because that's how we roll.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I like it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like it wouldn't even be, you know, right to start a conversation to talk about, you know, having difficult conversations in the workplace to not start by asking you to share like what is it that you think makes conversations difficult in the workplace?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we are all different, right?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: As humans, we grew up differently.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: We have different perspectives, different beliefs, different thoughts.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm a first-generation immigrant.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Filipino and I grew up differently, right, from everyone else.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: And then going to the workplace, it's a different type of culture from what I grew up to.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: So when you involve all of that, it's what's hard is learning to understand.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think we all grew up as children where like, who's right or wrong?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: But the reality is it's about learning to understand one another and relearning how to communicate with others.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because I grew up in a household where when you yell, you got heard.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: And if you don't yell, you don't get heard.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: But that doesn't work in the workplace.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_04: You can't just yell at someone.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: You just you have to understand that there's gonna be an outcome that you might not want.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: You can.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you'll go to the HR office.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_04: That's what's gonna happen, you know?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, good luck with that one.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: What's interesting to me is that um I I feel like my upbringing was the opposite.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if you yelled, you were in trouble.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Did you find it was similar for you, Erica?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I got like you you were not yelling because who were you raising your voice at?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: But you understood what it was when people raised their voice at you.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: You had done something that needed to be directed or needed to be fixed, but it wasn't something that you could do.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I always wonder as an adult how that works within the workplace from the space of like somebody communicates with me in a very different way than I have the capacity to communicate with them.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: The boss can yell, but I can't.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you find that that shows up in that way, Elaine?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was definitely something that was programmed for me.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think I mean it's different for each workplace, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I've had many different jobs.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: So I came from the political world where there was a lot of yelling from political candidates I worked with.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, I guess this is appropriate.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_04: I guess this is what you're supposed to do.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_04: You just take orders and you listen.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_04: And that was a perspective I grew up with growing up in an Asian household.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: Whatever my dad said, we had to do.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I figured that's what you have to do.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: So unfortunately, that was a perspective of what being normal is.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like, okay, this is normal, quote unquote.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like, is normal to yell out that's what a boss should do.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: And then as I've had a different experience working, I say it was my dream job working at Passane City College Foundation.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_04: I had a boss who would ask questions.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: I wasn't used to it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like, hey, we're thinking of doing this.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: What's your feedback?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like, wait, what?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: You're asking me for feedback.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_04: And it would be so funny because I'd be at board meetings with her and she would make faces and I would text her, like, you are making a resting bitch face, fix your face.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but that was a wonderful relationship I had with her.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_04: But it's understanding the dynamics and also understanding how to give feedback to others, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think I would have been able to give that feedback to ex-bosses I used to have, but I had a different type of relationship with her.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um and in the different transitions I've had in my different careers.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I am a business and career coach now, and it's really navigating and how to communicate with others.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: But I had to learn, oh, if I want to give feedback to someone, I have to ask before.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: I wasn't used to that because of how I was how I grew up.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the oldest, I have two brothers.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: I was just used to telling them what I thought was wrong, what they need to fix, right?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: Versus, hey, can I give you feedback or can I let you know what I noticed at a meeting and then giving feedback?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: That was something I had to relearn to do.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the interesting thing there for me that shows up in India, I'm curious if you agree, is that I think exactly what you're mentioning is what a lot of people now are having some conversations about, which is consent.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're mentioning is actually one of the first places that I think I had, you know, had kind of mentioned to me over the years of where consent was even remotely showing up, particularly in, you know, a difficult conversation.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that was like that first place of like, hey, let me ask before I jump into this, because consent really isn't openly discussed.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: No, it isn't.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: And you're preparing the other person prior to giving the feedback, or they might not just have the time to even receive the feedback and being okay if they say, you know, there have been times, like even in my personal feel like, hey, even to my own partner, can I give you feedback?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like, oh, I'm working on something.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, when can I talk to you about it again?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: Talk to me at 5 p.m.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: after work.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, I'll do it then.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, can I give you feedback?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: So even being open, I think we live in this world, unfortunately, and I call it the Amazon Prime world, that we're expected to reply to every single message or question right away.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: And giving people agency and choice when they can receive that feedback from you.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's important.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: One of the key things that you said that stands out to me is being able to receive it.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that openness to receive it can sometimes be based on time.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I've also on the receiving end have witnessed when just like maybe you have something else on your mind or or you're in a mood or you haven't.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: I get pretty hangry sometimes.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Erica can attest to that.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like don't feed me.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: You definitely don't want to give me any feedback when I haven't eaten.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, I know we're joking around about this, but that's actually important is understanding when is the right timing to give that feedback, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I find if we see a general sense, like the best time to give feedback is earlier in the morning.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: So not early, like 5 a.m., right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: But like if you happen to have a meeting, it's 9 a.m.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: with the person, like, hey, do you mind if I give you feedback?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: And the reason why earlier in the morning, it's because they haven't gone through their shetty day yet.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know what I mean?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're not dealing with the stress of everything.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm pretty sure Erica, since you know India gets hangry, and if it's around like 12 p.m., you're not gonna give her feedback right now.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: A feedback.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like, like actually, Erica, you could be smart about it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: Let me go like give you some coaching tips.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, hey, India, do you did you eat?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Cool girl, let's go on a call right now.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Strangely enough, that's part of our like weekly debriefing that we do with each other of like, where do I need to be held accountable this week?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And very often things will come up around remembering to eat.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Did you drink enough water?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because that does play a part in whether or not you can communicate in a conduit, not only providing something, but receiving something.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_04: And as we we also talk about timing, it's also understanding what is the other person's priority or the organization's priority, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: So if you have an event coming up and you notice something, you want to give feedback to the person, it has nothing to do with the event, it might just be something else, then wait until the event is over, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: Unless it has to deal with event and it is urgent and it affects your clients or whatever it is, then have that conversation.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: So it's learning when to prioritize having that conversation.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: And the importance of having, I don't call it difficult conversations, I call it conscious conversations.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_04: But when we have these converse conscious conversations with an individual, it actually deepens the relationship.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: I kind of give the comparison of having that conscious conversation with your romantic partner, right?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: You fall in love with them even more when you're having these open conversations of understanding.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like I deepen my relationship with my partner each time we have a conversation, like, oh wow, I did not realize that about you.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_04: Or he would say the same thing to me, like that really made me empathize because I didn't realize you grew up that way.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the interesting thing about what you mentioned is the, and I'm hearing this consistently, it's also understanding that people are unique and there is not any one way to do this.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so kind of picking up on some of that nuance is important.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when you use the example of if there's an event, unless it is something that is tied to something that is time-sensitive or you know, absolutely pertinent to being able to carry out that outcome, you can wait and carry it out at a different time.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: However, as somebody that absolutely vehemently cannot stand when people are like, hey, I want to tell you something, but I'll tell you about it later.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't do that to me.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that to me.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because it may then I now have this overthinking that will start in my brain.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: The loot plays, and I don't know what it is.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is one thing to ask me if I can have this conversation with you.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's another to come and kind of mic drop on me and say, I want to have this conversation, but I'll come have it later.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, what?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, now we're gonna have it now.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're gonna have it now.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's so important with that to keep that in mind with the people that you're interacting with, especially if like they're a direct report or someone that in some way, shape, or form does kind of, you know, answer to or confer with you to really be aware of what is going to position them from a nervous system standpoint to be present and open to this conversation and not defensive.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it makes me think about um a client that we've had, Erico, where uh they have lots of ideas that come up throughout the day or questions that come up throughout the day.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and how we've given them access to a place to dump those questions so they can come with them all together, like at once in an organized way.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't feel like as a service provider, they're constantly flooding with new things to think about.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you can actually take your time to go through them one at a time.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just wondering, because that allows them to get those ideas out of their head and also allows uh as a service provider for us to be able to address them in a way that's going to be the most helpful.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm wondering if there are any other little things like that that have shown up for you and what you've witnessed and being able to like prepare for difficult conversations.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I want to share the importance of asking for consent, right?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_04: In the beginning.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because let's be honest, we all get triggered when someone tells us something, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: And we may create statements in our thoughts because of how we grew up.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like, oh no, what the fuck is wrong with me?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Why did I make a mistake or perfectionism comes up?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: So that's why it's important to ask for consent.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's to prepare the person so that they may not get triggered from whatever they have dealt or healed with in the past.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it's the way you phrase it, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's I want to give you feedback because of something I noticed when I stated this, or I want to give you feedback because I know this is a project that we're working on.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like reminding them what the bigger goal is, why you are giving the feedback, and then share the feedback with them.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like I noticed that I'll just kind of like share a story because I think stories really help.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: But I was working with an older woman.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm 34, she's 60, and I share the age because it will make sense when I share the story.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but she, whenever I did something great, she would give me feedback, like, oh, good girl.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, why does this feel so weird?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: Why is she telling me good girl?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then I gave feedback, I told my boss, um, but then I realized it wasn't her responsibility to give feedback to the person.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_04: So um I we had like a group meeting after another tip: do not give feedback if it's something personal like that um in a group setting.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I waited until everybody left and let's call this person's name is Kim.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: So I asked Kim, hey Kim, can you stay?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: And she stayed.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I let her know, Kim, I really appreciate like we've we've worked together on this project.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_04: We raised a million dollars.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well, at the same time, I want to let you know when you give me the compliment, good girl.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: It does come off as condescending, like you're treating me like a dog.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um so if you notice how I gave her that feedback, I shared with her how much I appreciated working with her, and I want to give her that feedback of how it made me feel uncomfortable.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: While at the same time, I also want to share I was completely unattached to how she was going to respond.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: What was very important for me was giving her the feedback because I've been feeling very uncomfortable and I needed to honor that.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: What was fascinating is her response was, oh my gosh, Elaine, I've always shared that compliment with other younger women that have done a great job by saying, good girl, and no one's given me this feedback.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because I realized, wow, this woman is in her 60s.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: And at the time I was, I think, 27.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: So she's been in the workforce for what, four decades?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it made me realize, wow, no one has given her this feedback.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the first one to give her this feedback.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_04: And yes, she did stop saying good girl.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: And it just showed me how beautiful this world can be when giving each other feedback in a place of understanding.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like I didn't go in the I'm right, you're wrong, you do what I say.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: It was more like this is how it's making me feel.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: And it educated her, and and we had such we've had such a great relationship working together.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that makes such a big difference because there now obviously I think after um we're like some of us, I would say probably 35 to 40 and over, we definitely got a lot of different rhetoric when it came to how you communicated in the workplace.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it absolutely did minimize your feelings really mattering.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I suck it up.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that you know work is kind of done now, how you feel doing your job or the work or the task or your skill, it is a lot more awareness around the fact that if you don't feel comfortable, if you don't feel appreciated, if you don't feel respected, you cannot do your best work.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate that it's such a larger part of the conversation because it definitely wasn't that way before.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm really grateful it's happening.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: I am jealous in all the best and good ways for this new generation.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm a millennial, I am now 34, where they can share this.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: And what's really important is educating others on how to communicate.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: Because, um, like for example, I was 24, I wanted to get a raise.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and like I said earlier, I'm first generation immigrant.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I asked my parents, hey, how do I ask for a raise?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: I know I need it.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm working like long hours, I'm doing more than my job description.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like, well, if you just work a lot, you're gonna get the raise you want.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, that's not how it works.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was like, this is not how it works in this country, in this workplace.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_04: And and I and I hired my first career coach.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I it's funny because I'm a business and career coach now, but I hired my first career coach because I needed someone to teach me how to communicate.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: And while working with her, it wasn't just asking for the raise.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: I eventually did.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: I went from 60,000 to 72K.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: But that was, I kind of got addicted.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_04: What I mean by that is when I got the raise, I got addicted to, oh wow, I could ask for what I want.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: I could share my ideas and my opinions.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: And how I grew up was like people honor whatever you do, but also people will respect you more by giving input and feedback in a respectful manner.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what I had to really learn for myself.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's so powerful because we're this, we're very close to the same age.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like similar things showed up for me of the idea of like you find the good government job being based in the Washington, DC area.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's the rhetoric.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Find the good government job and work your way up from the bottom to the top by just being a really hard worker.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: You'll naturally get promoted in raises.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, um, that's not the world we live in anymore.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Keep your head down, be quiet, don't make a lot of noise, just be very nondescript.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm curious, um, I'm curious if it's I hate that I'm sharing this, but if it's be because it that was their perspective of as a woman of color.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, unfortunately, I'm an Asian American, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_04: So there's these stereotypes that you hire an Asian American woman and she's just gonna listen and obey whatever you do.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: I was not that.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_04: Let me just share.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: And and I gave feedback and suggestions and called people out on things that they were not used to.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's actually how I moved up and got promoted.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't sitting still and doing whatever my boss told me to do.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_04: It was I'm giving feedback and sharing it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: And mind you, yes, I've been in positions and jobs where they didn't listen to my feedback.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: They expect me to just do the role.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: And guess what?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: I left because I wasn't being respected and heard.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think part of it, I mean, there there's definitely the piece of being women of color.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh specifically for me personally, I can say being a black woman, there was definitely those pieces of number one, be grateful for getting it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I hear that all the time.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like you should be glad.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, therefore, you know, you're not supposed to uh talk back or um really do anything to truly advocate for yourself.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Autonomy wasn't necessarily something that was uh a positive thing, but there was also kind of this space of it didn't benefit you to do something outside of the box because then you would also run into this thing of like, you know, well, who are you to do this?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because other people didn't do that, and then it would make you stand out, and then there would be almost this thing that um unfortunately a number of people that I know that happen to either be black or black women have experienced specifically from conversations I've had of like, oh, you you you think you're too good to.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there's this place of like, uh, am I not supposed to think highly of myself?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure what you expect from me, but it usually, these types of things usually come on the heels of something where either you have advocated for yourself, or somehow somebody has to do something diff different, and they have to maybe do something that requires them to work a little harder and they don't like it.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I remember working in the very first um salon when I was doing my apprenticeship, and I had a boss tell me, and he what I don't remember what I said to him, he just didn't like it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he said to me, If I tell you to clean the toilets, you're gonna clean them.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, okay.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: The next day I found a whole new place, and within within a week, I was like, Yeah, I'm leaving because I had no intentions at 19 years of age to be disrespected by this old white man who thought that it was okay to talk to me any old kind of way because he perceived me as a child.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I can speak to the race piece.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can say that I felt like that played into it, but I knew I wasn't willing to do it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a difficult conversation if someone is talking at you or disrespecting you or demeaning you, and I want to differentiate that as well.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: A challenging or difficult conversation is somebody bringing something that maybe isn't necessarily positive or neutral.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just something that there's there's feedback or space for growth, but it does not have to be negative, and it always includes respecting.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: As you share all of that, I just I was already questioning are there some specific nuanced pieces of approaching difficult conversation that may be different when you come from an underrepresented or discriminated against group?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, might there be some different things that you need to pull on or be aware of?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what comes up for either of you, but I can see where, especially as we talked about, like you should be glad you even have this job mentality.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: It does spark that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I have a story to share.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um and feel free to like unwrap it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: But it was where it was when I was working a political campaign, I was a grassroots organizer.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I got along really well with my boss.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: But right, we learn a lot about leadership from bosses.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_04: So white man in ally, good friend of mine, and when he would lead meetings with consultants, he would just blatantly say, that's wrong or that's not right.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, so I took note in my head, like, okay, so if I see something wrong or not right, I should do that myself at meetings.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I did that, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: In one of the next meetings I led.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_04: And they didn't listen, they didn't respond back.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: So I had to like actually think to myself, and it's unfortunate, I was thinking this way.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, oh, I'm not, I'm not a white man.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: And at the time I was 22, because I was 22 years old at my first director position.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I can't say the same thing.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I learned, I had, like I said earlier, I had to relearn, like, oh, it's asking questions, it's consent, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: He was being listened to in his privilege that he has, and I wasn't, and then giving that consent as a woman of color.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'm happy for both of you to dissect it.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: But that was like my first experience of I can't do the same thing he did.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: It has to be different for me.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's so much.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, there's so much.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_04: I know I knew if I was gonna share that story, you were gonna dissect it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, first and foremost, to tell someone that's wrong is not okay.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because unless we are talking about the type of thing that is the risking of life, limb, physical, mental, spiritual, or emotional safety, you don't get to decide what's right or wrong for someone.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, if we're talking about parameters or laws or this is how things are done, like like there, there are specific things in like let's say a nonprofit sector, just as an example.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are certain things that you have to do a certain way.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: But even if, okay, even if that is the thing, the minute you respond to someone by saying that's wrong, they're gonna shut down.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's not conducive conversation, it's not collaborative, and it is borderline disrespect.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I would consider it disrespect.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because there are some people that just they communicate directly, and maybe for them that feels comfortable.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, that would that could feel very disrespectful, and that is basically, you know, kind of giving me the message that what you said is wrong, and depending on when you give it to me, or if you're giving it to someone else, it might actually translate as you, the human, are wrong.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's not that's not okay.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many pieces there, but that was the first thing that I'm like behavior modeling is so important, and to behavior model that you can safely do that as a white man is already damaging enough.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: But then to model that and someone that doesn't identify in the same way now is given the message that this is how we do this, you're inviting conflict and miscommunication.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, the first thing that showed up to for me is that the word curiosity.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I personally feel like sometimes it is us marginalized and underrepresented folk that have to bear the burden of being curious.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: But that curiosity actually is where the conversation happens, is where the openness, the sharing, the understanding why this thing that maybe you may view as something that is a softer version of wrong was actually right for someone else, but you miss that entire opportunity when you just go in of this is right and this is wrong.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'll say the other thing that showed up for me is just wondering if in general that plays out into the consent piece as well, right?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: So when we add when we seek the consent, when we establish a good time, a good place, a good situation to have this conversation, might the other person be more open, more receptive, more curious?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I also have to address the fact that part of the problem here, um, while there may have been other people in a leadership role that you may have also had access to or that were also behavior modeling, I also want to acknowledge that your role model was not representative of how you showed up.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Your role model was a white man.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: This person did not identify with you at any of the intersections that makes you who you are.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And not having that is also a part of not only what can challenge our ability to figure out what is our particular way of communicating, but it also doesn't give you an opportunity to talk with someone or to communicate with someone about what have they learned or experienced that got them to this point.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe everything that they learned maybe isn't for you.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: But having that opportunity to be able to discuss that with somebody that identifies at least in some way, shape, or form, similarly to you, I think does make a difference.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I will share, it's fascinating because I work with women of color.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a business and career coach for women of color.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the first things they tell me is it's so nice to see someone who looks like me.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: And when I give them tips on how they could communicate with their boss or with their colleague, if they have the business with their team member, like, oh, I didn't realize I could communicate that way.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: It's because we weren't modeled, we weren't shown that way, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: Whether it is having an older white man as a boss, or we just live in a traditional household where we listen to our father, it's relearning.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I just think about wow, how much better this world can be, not just professionally, but personally, if we just learned how to communicate, ask for consent and ask curious questions, because it is asking questions, right?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: The intention when having these conscious conversations, these difficult conversations, like I said earlier, is not about who's right or wrong.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, okay, how can we come to a place of understanding one another?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's this place of challenging conversations, uncomfortable conversations, conversations that you just might not want to have to have, but that need to be had.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think part of the reason that they feel that way is because of the fact that openly communicative conversation has not been normalized as much as it really can be.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I was about to say should be, and the word should always make me feel a certain way.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, but there's not enough normalizing of it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore, it feels uncomfortable or challenging because it feels like the thing that you really shouldn't do, the thing that you're not supposed to do, the thing that you don't want to have to do, as opposed to making it so that it's just a part of communicating.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just another conversation.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think often we get there because it's not being normalized.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: We're not getting a lot of examples of what this is to even begin to replicate and model for ourselves.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and instead, oftentimes what we're witnessing is an exertion of power.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm the leader, I'm the parent, I'm the whatever.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to exert my power by putting my perspective on everything and not really being open to discussion of what yours is, or that maybe there's room for me to expand mine.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I just, as I take in this conversation and also take part of it, I think that part of what we're calling people to do in the consent piece and in the openness and curiosity is going to serve their own conversations, but it also might inspire other people to have conversations differently too.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: And if we think about their bigger picture, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's how can I deepen this relationship?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: How can I be a better human?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_04: What my old boss, um, still a mentor to me when I worked at Pasino City College Foundation, shared with me is the moment someone stops giving you feedback is the moment they have given up on you.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: And we are not perfect by any means.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: We are human, we make mistakes, we have our own traumas, our own triggers, right?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I always take it as a compliment when someone is willing to have that difficult conversation with me and for me to receive it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I've gone through my own trauma where also when you're at the receiving end and you realize it's probably a lot to take, even letting the person know, like, hey, I need time to process this.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, thank you for sharing.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: Let me get back to you.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you don't need to necessarily respond right away, even taking the time to process it.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_04: And unfortunately, we live in a world of social media where we see people with different beliefs, and it's like, this is how I believe.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: No, you're right, no, you're wrong.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's what we see.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: But remembering how these difficult conversations do deepen us as an individual, as a society, I think the pandemic has been a gift.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: And yes, COVID is real.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: People have died.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: We're still going on through a pandemic.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: But what I mean by the pandemic has been a gift is that what I've seen, what we've all seen, is we as individuals have had deeper difficult conversations with ourselves, right?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_04: That's why there's the great resignation.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's why there's millions of businesses opening up each year since 2020.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: So we're really questioning, having that deep conversations within ourselves.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: That's why divorce rates are up, having deep conversations with our relationship with like our partners.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: And even the deep conversations that are happening in this nation, in this culture, in society where it's questioning a lot of things.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_04: And even though it's so uncomfortable, I just see this as like a beautiful point in today's society.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like, wow, there's like big changes happening in all levels, individually, collectively, and as a society and nation.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the interesting thing is I'm kind of listening to you, and this is where I'm like, I am so gonna be so excited to kind of witness how this gets played out in the article for this episode because there's so much passion in your voice.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I need that to be translated.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it also, you know, it does make it very clear that there is that, you know, true passion that you have about supporting people communicating differently around things that are, you know, not necessarily the easiest things to talk about or not as normalized as of right now.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm curious if you can pinpoint anything that really made this something that you do have this passion for supporting people and being it being better about it.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't know if there's a pinpoint.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's just multiple experiences I've had in my life, right?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like I shared earlier, where oh wow, I was able to have this difficult conversation and I got my$12,000 raise.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: Or wow.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_04: I gave feedback to this nonprofit that they should consider having a woman of color board member and they're listening.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: Or wow, even now being a business and career coach, we're like, I just helped this client realize that she was going through so much as a woman of color.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: And unfortunately, the experiences she had, she's not the only one because she felt so alone.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: So now she's transitioning to a different industry, making more money.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_04: And each time I've had like real honest conversations with individuals, you start seeing fabrics of change happening with individuals and how it's even changing the bigger collective where we're being we're having these conversations and it's changing.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know, maybe that's also my experience being a former grassroots organizer.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: And but I just see change happen each time we do have a conversation.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: All of that.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: All of it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, sum that up.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, let me just say, I do I wish I could change the whole world and country.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yes, but there's also reasons why I got out of to being a grassroots organizer.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: But if we could think about what is our legacy and mission, what we can't contribute to our society, then it's like, okay, I could make these small little changes, but they add up, right?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Facts.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I do think that that's an important piece right there, of just that whole understanding that it doesn't always have to be a large thing that every choice that you make adds up to make a big change.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I feel like we can't have this conversation about the workplace piece.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we've touched a little bit on personal as well, but without me asking you, like, are there any nuance differences or things that you feel like come up when you're having these conscious conversations?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: I like that phrase.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I'll be borrowing it, Elaine.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, use it.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Outside of the workplace and into our personal lives, like one of the things that always comes up for me every year in my life is recognizing that the holidays are when the personal conversations tend to start happening a lot.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you are you taking time off to celebrate this holiday?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: Why or why not?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what are your boundaries around gifts?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: Who are you spending time with?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: Digging back into a family that maybe you don't even have a relationship with.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure that I am not the only one.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I just wonder if there are any differences there.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: You know what?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: It's pretty much the same, but I will say, I don't know if both of you find it easier, but I think, like I said, the pandemic was a gift.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: So I feel like it actually gave me an excuse to not continue seeing people that I don't want to see.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm like, I haven't talked to you in two years.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: So we only start now.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm I'll be honest, like, like, oh, thank God.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like I can focus on the people that I actually truly love.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and what's beautiful is even seeing it, like I said, I am in my 30s, so it's the people couldn't get married for like a year or two years, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: They're all getting married.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: And even seeing how it's not big ass weddings, it's small, intimate weddings.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there's even weddings where I'm like, oh, I wasn't invited to that.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: But like, you know what?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna respect it, right?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's just I haven't talked to the person in three years or five years.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_04: Why am I gonna be upset that I'm not going to it?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_04: So I think just being in this pandemic, it's been a gift to not see people we don't like.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: But also, you know, I'm mindful family is a different type of dynamic as well.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_04: So if there are certain conversations about certain political X figures, if you know what I mean, um, I know I can't change someone's beliefs or thoughts.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_04: So if I need to remove myself from the conversation or walk away, I'll do it, right?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_04: So just even honoring that.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but the example I gave earlier of the conscious conversation with even a romantic partner, it's like, which relationships are important to you to have that conscious conversation with, right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure all of us agree where it's gonna be our partnerships, our children, right?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_04: Those are really important conversations to continue having because when you have that place of understanding, it's okay, like this relationship will deepen that way.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: And also allow yourself to honor when you are with someone where they say things that will trigger where you can step out.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: You don't need to have that conscious conversation with them.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_04: You don't need to, you don't need to try to fix every single person.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_04: Pick and choose, and who you pick and choose, that's up to you.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for breaking that down.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: I have a feeling that people may be putting this back on rewind and remix at certain times of the year, at certain points in life and decision making as well.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: So as we start to wind down, before we go, I would love to know if now you may have already shared it, so feel free to say, I already gave it to you.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: But is there one action that you would like for the people to take after they listen into this conversation?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Something that they can go do that would be a part of them creating change.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: Ooh, that's so good.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know what?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_04: Think about because I'm all about creating legacies, like, what is your bigger legacy you want to create?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_04: And with that, like, what is one action you can do?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, for example, my biggest legacy I want to create is making sure women of color create a sustainable and equitable future in their career and business with their life.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_04: And another thing, I know you said one action, but also another thing I want folks to reflect.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: On is reflecting back on all the generations before us where they may not have had a voice and they weren't born in the generation we're at.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know we still have so much work to do, right?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_04: But I acknowledge how privileged I am to be born at the time I am, to be in this generation where I can speak the way I can speak.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_04: And in doing so, it's honoring the generations before me.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was just kind of a mic draw.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_04: And it's interesting, right?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm pretty sure I don't know if both of you are raised the same way, but it's like, no, just do whatever they tell you to do, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: Because that's, and I'm not saying that they're horrible women for telling me that.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_04: That's just how they were raised.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, well, that's because that's what they were taught.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_04: So what an honor that I don't need to quiet their voices either.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_04: I could speak up.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And how are you changing that for the future generations of your lineage going forward?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_04: And it could be as simple as, you know, you being at Target and this is the wrong size, you know?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, I'm not doing this.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you're right.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad that you mentioned that because I wouldn't want to have anyone listening to this think that legacy immediately means that it's always about this big thing.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, the smallest of ways that maybe didn't feel safe for someone to um reclaim their own power and autonomy every time that you do it.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: You are filling in that generational bucket in that way.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So please understand that something as small as being like, this order is not correct, or this is not actually what I wanted, or this is not what I need in advocating for yourself.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: You are creating so much with that.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't underestimate that.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: And just know, I mean, I shared I am part of the pause on the play community with Indian Erica.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're not part of it, why?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just kidding.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_04: But no, seriously, why you should join.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_04: Click on the show notes to click on that link.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so you know, our body just knows um there's an amazing book called The Body Keeps Score.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I was feeling uncomfortable being in it in a specific container and statements that were being stated.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, oh no, no, no, let me just like not pay attention to it.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: And then I finally like really paid attention to, like, yeah, this is not aligned to my values.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_04: And then I gave the feedback, but what was very important was being completely unattached.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_04: And sure, there is a contract, and I was just like, you know what, I'm not gonna show up to the calls.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_04: I don't feel safe, and that is my decision.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and honoring that for myself.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: And if you have that inkling, you know, there's a reason why you have that, and to explore that with curiosity.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_04: Go ahead, Erica.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_04: You were gonna share something.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was gonna say if you can't make those choices for yourself, then you're allowing somebody else to make it.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the goal.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I just want to thank you for sharing that um, both here on the podcast today, but also, you know, exploring what was happening and how it felt in your body with us within the community as well.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: That requires a certain amount of vulnerability and emotional investment, both in yourself and in the safety of the others in our space to do that.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and I think it's important to share because we're in the quote unquote like online space.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um and as both of you know, I mean, there's a lot of service providers.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_04: And it is important to integrate safe spaces.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_04: And when that's not happening, that could be very damaging to a client.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I have been on that unfortunate other end of it, which is why like I've done my own trauma-informed certification.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_04: I did it with AGM Moses, and also just being mindful and learning and growing from it.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because, like I said, I'm human, I make mistakes.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we're hopefully we do see a shift in this online space where people are more mindful, right?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, unfortunately, it's the marketing of do this, right?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: Here's the template.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: You should do this.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: You're doing it wrong, as opposed to really asking and providing agency to your client, like, have you considered doing this or what feels right to you?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, going back to that, going back within the individual, as opposed to like the ego of a service provider, and just that this is the one-all, end-all template to follow.
• 49:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: And as Elaine already mentioned, she is one of our members in Pause Wanna Play the community.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we absolutely love knowing that she's in the room because she gives, she communicates, she takes in what everyone else is saying, and having someone in there that's not only holding space for others, but allowing themselves to be, you know, held space for, and just being a part of everything powerful that's happening in the room.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly the type of people that we want in the room.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: So for being one of our members, for being our guest today, and for being an all-around amazing person and sharing that wisdom with us.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: We thank you, Elaine.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well, I I just want to say thank you to both of you, not only for having me as a guest, um, I was honored and spoiled.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: I got to meet both Erica and India in person.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_04: I know, be jealous.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they are both lovely, like in person, if not more.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_04: And just the work both of you are doing, not just in this industry, in this world.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_04: I know it's a lot to hold space, and you hold space so beautifully and safely.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I am so honored and grateful to be part of the community.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: So if you are listening, I hope to see you there.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not like all serious too, like we joke around and have fun and laugh.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: We do.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you can come find that out.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: So this is line.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: She told you.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: Legacy maker, if you're interested in working with me and specifically working on your leadership to deepen your personal and professional relationships while honoring your values and hitting your goals, then schedule a complimentary 30-minute legacy business and review call where you will receive three individualized action items towards your business or career.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: So just go to ElaineLew.com forward slash call.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: And if it's a great fit to work together by the end of the call, great.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: We could talk about how it looks like to work together.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_04: And if it's not a great fit, great.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_04: I can refer you to other people and resources because integrity is one of my top values.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I know as humans, we're not meant for everybody.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: Also, if you're all into community connection in person, I have an upcoming two-day retreat in Los Angeles in 2023 on April 27th and 28th.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: So if you're interested in working on your leadership in person, go to ElaineLou.com forward slash retreat to register or schedule a call with me to see if it's a good fit for you.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: Legacymaker, if you love this call your dreams episode, we would love it if you can leave a rating and review on Apple.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: So more women of color and allies can benefit too.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_04: And if you have one or two friends that would get so much from this particular episode, please share.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_04: The intention behind the Call Your Dreams podcast was to contribute and give back to our people.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_04: All right, we'll see you next Thursday for our newest Call Your Dreams episode.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_04: And don't forget to call your dreams too.