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Tracking Down Sources · Scripture-ish

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, this is Ed Gallagher, and I'm reading my essay, Tracking Down Sources.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I originally wrote this essay for my students at Heritage Christian University,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: and it probably makes most sense in that context,
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: but it might provide some good advice for people outside an academic context
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: as well.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of Abraham Lincoln's famous quotations is,
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: don't believe everything you read on the internet.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: This excellent advice from our 16th president helpfully introduces our topic,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: which is tracking down sources.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: As honest Abe would tell us,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: when you find an interesting quotation or bit of information,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: you need to confirm it, trace it back to its origin, see if it's true.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: When you are doing research on the Bible,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: a research paper,
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: one of the tasks that you have to do This is a question about
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: which some people have much to say today, and they will offer a variety of opinions.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: These opinions might be interesting, but they are not evidence.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: What you really want
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: is information deriving from the first century,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: first-hand information from writers in the first century,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: or from archaeological artifacts dating to the first century.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: A good guide to such evidence on the topic of women in
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: the first century is Susan Hyland, a New Testament professor at Emory.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: She has several books on the topic,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: and I have always found her works to be careful Both in its citation
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: of ancient evidence and in the conclusions drawn from that evidence.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I trust her to be careful because she has proven herself worthy of that trust.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I do not trust her to provide the correct citation in any given instance.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody makes mistakes.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Susan Hyland is great, but you still need to track down the sources.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that she cites Josephus correctly,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: that the paragraph number she provided is the correct one and
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: that Josephus really does say what she attributes to him and
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: that she has interpreted his meaning correctly.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: The only way to do that is define the original passage in Josephus.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Read the passage and read a little bit before it and a little bit after it to get the context.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: It has never been so easy to track down sources.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the ancient sources are freely available online in English translation so
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: that, as the Apostle Paul might say, one is without excuse.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: There is no reason not to look up the original passage, and it must be done.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why should we care so much about tracking down sources?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, we are people who value truth.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: We have committed ourselves to guiding people into a deeper knowledge
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: of matters divine,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: a sacred responsibility that should compel us to know what we're talking about and
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: to refuse to affirm things that we don't know.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes we are going to get into arguments that are finely nuanced,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: that turn on the meaning of a particular Greek or Hebrew word,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: or that are affected by the proper interpretation of some extra biblical source.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we should,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: look at such evidence for ourselves so that we can help people work through
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: the issues.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Especially at Heritage Christian University,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: an academic institution,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: we pursue academic excellence as a facet of Christian virtue,
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: developing skills,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: both practical and scholarly, in order to help people and to glorify God.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: We are God's images, and we have been created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And those good works are many and manifold.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Doing our academic work in an excellent fashion is,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: in part, what we have been created in Christ Jesus to do.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: We need to take this stuff seriously.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: By the way,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: this is the reason I cite Wikipedia so frequently on Substack and in chapel speeches
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: and even in sermons.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I would never, never rely on Wikipedia as an actual research source.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would never cite it in an academic paper.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I cite it in speeches for two main reasons.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: To let you know where to find more information about a topic.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And even more importantly, to tell you that I have not done research on the topic.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm relying on Wikipedia, that means I don't know what I'm talking about.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have done only the easiest, laziest, most basic amount of research.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't even call it research, but poking around.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not even poking around.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's the term I use for looking at a few books in the library
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: to see what scholars are saying on a topic.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't rise to the level of research because it's only a few books that I look
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: at and maybe a few primary sources.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's poking around.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Research is when I'm actually in the pursuit of a question and I'm going
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: to be pretty exhaustive in my search for the answer.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes for a Bible class or sermon or even a class
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: at Heritage Christian University,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have time for real research, just some poking around down in the library.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of time I don't even have time to poke around or I don't have an interest.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just Google something and read a Wikipedia article.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I almost always tell people when I'm relying on Wikipedia,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: when I do cite Wikipedia,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to communicate that Wikipedia is a good research tool,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: but the exact opposite.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Wikipedia is where you go before you start the process of research.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And now I give you three bad examples,
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  SPEAKER_00: all from the published work of biblical scholars and theologians,
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  SPEAKER_00: people who should know better.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: First up, Hippocrates on women.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the year 2020,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: a book called Women in the Bible was published by Westminster John Knox,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: written by Jamie Clark Souls,
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  SPEAKER_00: a professor at Perkins School of Theology, the seminary attached to SMU in Dallas.
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  SPEAKER_00: On page two of her book,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: she presents a chart exhibiting eight quotations from historical sources ranging
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: from Hippocrates in the classical Greek period to Luther and Calvin in
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: the 16th century.
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  SPEAKER_00: This chart is designed to illustrate,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: in the words of Clark Souls,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: the availability of an endless collection of choice quotations to prove
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: that women have been considered inferior to men.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a quote from Clark Souls.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me say,
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have no doubt that one can easily demonstrate such a thing
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: that throughout world history,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: in perhaps all societies, women have been considered inferior to men.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with Clark Souls that this has been a common attitude,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: and I join with her in condemning it.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just wish she had done a better job of demonstrating it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: To emphasize the pedantic point that is the subject of this essay,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: you should not rely on her chart, but use her chart as a guide to the sources.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: By all means, go tracking down the sources yourself.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll find that Clark Souls has not always excerpted these quotations accurately.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, there are eight quotations attributed to the following sources.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hippocrates,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Aristotle,
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  SPEAKER_00: Josephus, Philo,
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: the Tosefta,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: which is a rabbinic document from the third century, Origen,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: who is a third century Christian author in Greek, and Martin Luther and John Calvin.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: The first quotation is from Hippocrates,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: a Greek medical writer from around the time of Socrates.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Clark Souls attributes to Hippocrates these words in quotation marks.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Quote, Males are warm, dry, and firm, and this is the norm.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Females are cool, moist, and spongy, these being defects.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: End quote.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's an interesting statement,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: and I have read enough about ancient views of women to say that it sounds plausible
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: that Hippocrates said it.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: But where did he say it?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It would be nice if Clark Souls would tell us where Hippocrates made this statement,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: but she doesn't.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, she cites a scholarly article written in 1991.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know what to do next, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Go get the article.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Under no circumstances are you to trust a scholar,
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  SPEAKER_00: and in this case,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: thou shalt not assume that Clark Souls has correctly cited the article,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: or that the 1991 article says what Clark Souls attributes to it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Best case scenario here is that the 1991 article provides a quote from Hippocrates
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: that is word for word what Clark Souls quoted and provides the reference
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: to Hippocrates.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is not what the 1991 article provides.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: It turns out that the words presented by Clark Soule's in quotation marks are not
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: a direct quotation at all,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: and not even a quotation from the scholarly article,
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  SPEAKER_00: but more of a summary from the article.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: The 1991 article was written by Leslie Dean Jones,
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  SPEAKER_00: and she shows that in the Hippocratic treatise called Glanz,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: One, men are said to have glands that are spongy.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have some glands that are spongy.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in this way, the glands are different from the rest of the male body.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: But females,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: according to the same tractate,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: females have glands that are spongy, just like the rest of their body.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole female body is spongy.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: According to Dean Jones,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: it is the Hippocratic treatise called Regimen that says that women are colder
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: and moister than men.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know what to do now, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You go get the Hippocratic treatise Regimen and you see for yourself.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the Loeb Classical Library,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: which is easily accessible on the shelves of a good library,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: and most of this stuff you can access online if you are an intelligent user of
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: the internet.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, here is the entirety of the section in that treatise called Regimen.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Quote, This is from the Loeb Classical Library.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: The quotation is,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: the males of all species are warmer and drier and the females moister and colder.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: For the following reasons,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: originally each sex was born in such things and grows thereby,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: while after birth males use a more rigorous regimen so that they are well warmed
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: and dried,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: but females use a regimen that is moister and less stringent,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: besides purging the heat out of their bodies every month.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: End quote.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Take careful note that a word that does not appear in the passage of Hippocrates,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: summarized by Dean Jones, is the crucial term defect.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was in the quotation that Clark Souls presented, but the word is not used at all.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, the word defect appears nowhere in the article by Dean Jones.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it looks like what Clark Souls has done is she has
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: She has combined a summary of the Hippocratic treatise,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Glands, with a summary of the Hippocratic treatise, Regimen.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Put them together,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: put quotation marks around it,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: and offered the interpretation that Hippocrates means that women have
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: a defective body.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So she put the word defect in there as well.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, next up is Thomas Campbell the Calvinist.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Thomas Campbell, of course, is the father of Alexander Campbell.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Who is the most famous name in the first generation of the Stone Campbell Movement
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: or the American Restoration Movement.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now for a second example.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this one comes from a New Testament scholar named Eugene Boring.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's his last name, Boring.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he died a couple of years ago.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not taking an example from one of Boring's books on the New Testament,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: but from a book he published with Chalice Press in 1997 called Disciples and
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: the Bible.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I've previously published a couple of essays on this particular book,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Eugene Boring's book, and I have links to them if you want to find that.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's on my Substack page.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Eugene Boring was himself a lifelong member of the Disciples of Christ,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: and he taught for some time at Bright Divinity School,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: a disciples' seminary attached to Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: The book itself is fantastic.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I highly recommend it for an analysis of the biblical interpretation practiced
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: by Alexander Campbell and J.W.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: McGarvey and others who are probably less well-known to you.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the interesting quotations Boring provides is on page 241 of his book,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: a quotation from Thomas Campbell in which the elder Campbell said in the year 1828,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am a Calvinist.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And Campbell further said that he was not a restorationist.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's interesting, isn't it?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't you like to see that comment in its original context?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: What you would like to see from Boring is a footnote citing Thomas Campbell.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: That would make things easy.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: You could just go get the relevant book by Campbell and see what he meant,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: and this could be done in a good library or online.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Alas, Boring does not provide a reference to Campbell,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: but again,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: just like Clark Soles,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: To a secondary source,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: and this one is the 1954 book by Lester G.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: McAllister called Thomas Campbell, Man of the Book.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Fortunately,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: we have this book in our library,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: so I walked down there from my office and found
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: that McAllister himself did not directly cite Thomas Campbell either,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: but another book,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: one published in By A.S.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Hayden in 1875 and called Early History of the Disciples in the Western Reserve,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Ohio.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now this book was not available in the library, but it is online at archive.org.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: There I see that the original source of this quotation by Campbell seems to be a letter.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Dated April 6th, 1868.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Written by somebody named Islet Rains to the book's author, A.S. Hayden.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: To describe his participation in the 1828 meeting of
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: the Mahoning Baptist Association in Warren, Ohio.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there is no source extant,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think, directly from Thomas Campbell in which he says that he is a Calvinist.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: What we have is an 1868 letter.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Written by a fellow who recalled a conversation he had 40 years earlier in
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: which Campbell made the statement.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas Campbell himself was long dead by the time Islet Raines recalled
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: the conversation he had with him.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: That seems to me relevant context for the source.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying Islet Raines misremembered his conversation with Thomas Campbell,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: but such things often happen.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: In any case, it is best to know what sort of source we're dealing with.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not a direct quotation of Campbell, but a remembered conversation.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Track down the sources yourself.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, Hitler and Christians.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Finally,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I cite the book Mere Discipleship by Lipscomb professor Lee Camp,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: published by Brazos in 2003, with a second edition appearing in 2009.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: In both editions, the eighth chapter, titled Baptism, has two epigraphs.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: The first one is Galatians 3,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: verses 27 and 28, and the second is a statement attributed to Adolf Hitler.
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  SPEAKER_00: Quote, one is either a good German or a good Christian.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is impossible to be both at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_00: End quote.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's an interesting quotation from Hitler.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Where did Hitler say that?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Did Hitler really say that?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It seems a bit too perfect, a bit too on the nose.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I had the impression that Hitler courted Christians,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: that he sought to appropriate Christian themes.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would have guessed that he would more likely say the opposite of this quote,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: that he would more likely have said one cannot be a good Christian without being
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: a good German or vice versa.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: One cannot be a good German without being a good Christian.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: That rather than opposing Christianity to German-ness,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: he would have equated the two in the manner of the German Christians.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the impression I have is that Hitler thought that
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: the German Christians were useful idiots, but nevertheless useful.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And by saying that you cannot be a Christian and a German,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: he seems to have explicitly said that the German Christians were just idiots.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So my suspicions are raised.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a real quote from Hitler?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is the citation?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Camp cites page 179 of the 1985 book The Believer's Church,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: The History and Character of Radical Protestantism by Donald Dernbaugh and published
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: by Herald Press.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had never heard of any of this,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: not the author,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: not the book,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: not the publishing company,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: but what was clear to me immediately is that Camp did not cite Hitler.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: By the way,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: the The Press,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Herald Press,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: out of Scottsdale, Pennsylvania, is a Mennonite publishing company I came to learn.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a book,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: this book by Donald Dernbaugh,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: The Believer's Church, is a book we have in our library.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And on page 179, we find the relevant quotation.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: The cited source is unfortunately not Hitler, but rather a German book by H.H.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Schreyer.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Die Generation der Entscheidung from 1955.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Note that a book published in 1955 is a decade too late to be a primary source for
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: a quotation by Hitler who took his own life in 1945.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I forget how I ended up finding the original source.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I suspect a lot of Googling different search terms was involved.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: At any rate,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I found the quotation at archive.org in a book called Voice of Destruction
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: on pages 49 and 50.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: This book was published in 1940 by the publishing company Putnam in New York with
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: the author Hermann Rauschning.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I said the book was published in 1940.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's during the lifetime of Hitler.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: The book has a Wikipedia page where the lead title is not Voice of Destruction.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's the alternative title, but the lead title is Conversations with Hitler.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we learned that the book is a translation from
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: a German work titled Gespräche mit Hitler,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: published in France in 1939 before the war.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Here is the first paragraph of the book's forward.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Of course,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: this paragraph was written by the author of the book,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hermann Rauschning,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: and he says,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: These conversations with Hitler took place in the last year before his seizure
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: of power and the first two years of the National Socialist Regime.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first two years, 1933 and 1934.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: The writer jotted them down under the immediate influence of what he had heard.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Much may be regarded as practically a verbatim report.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Here in the circle of his intimates,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hitler speaks openly about his innermost ideas,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: ideas which have been kept secret from the masses.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's the end of the quote.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: The Wikipedia article on the book is rather short,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: but the page on the author,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hermann Rauschning,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: is much longer,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: with a long section on this particular book and specifically whether
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: or not it can be trusted.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: There have been lively debates about this.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just like in the case of the quotation of Thomas Campbell earlier,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: what we are dealing with here is not a direct quotation of Hitler,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: but a remembered conversation.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: In the case of Campbell,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: the conversation was remembered 40 years later,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: allowing ample opportunity for misremembering or embellishment.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: In the case of the quotation from Hitler, the time involved is much briefer, less than a decade.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the person reporting the conversation,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hermann Rauschning,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: He became a critic of the Nazis after his migration from Germany to
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: the United States,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: so he might have reason to depict or even to remember Hitler's words more starkly
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: than they were originally given.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Any responsible use of this book should indicate these debates
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: about its authenticity, at least in a footnote.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: The only responsible thing to do,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: is to cite the book not as a record of what Hitler said,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: but what he is likely to have said or may have said or is reported to have said.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it is possible or plausible that Hitler said in around 1933 that you cannot be
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: a good Christian and a good German.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: But you should also be aware of another quotation.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Often attributed to Hitler from a few years earlier in 1928,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: where he apparently said, our movement is Christian.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: According to Snopes, Hitler did indeed make this statement.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Drawing to a close here,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: in all these cases,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: the process of tracking down the sources of the information
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: that interests me It was both frustrating and educational.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's the frustrating part that might make you give up along the way,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: in which case you should leave alone the claim you haven't been able to verify.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do not mention it as if you know it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: You only know it that Thomas Campbell said in 1828 that he was a Calvinist or
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: that Hippocrates said women are soft and moist
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: or You only know it once you've tracked it down to its root.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: That experience is often frustrating, but it is also educational in unexpected ways.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: The pursuit of these sources will introduce you to people and books and topics
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: that you didn't know you didn't know.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Tracking down the sources must be done.