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The Knife: Off Record – 112 · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith. I'm Patia Eaton.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Today I'm going to tell Patia a story about an
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: international con man, and then we will have recommendations. Let's
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: get into it. So I first heard about this story
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: through someone who emailed me and said that she had
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: a story about a con man. I remember you telling
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: me that someone had emailed This was a while ago. Yeah, yeah,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: And so as we do, I set up a preliminary
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: call just to sort of hear more about the story.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: So I talked with her on the phone for a bit.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: She didn't end up doing an interview, so I'm just
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: going to use a different name. We'll call her Sarah.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: But basically she told me that she was working abroad
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen. She was in Portugal in Poortoo, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: she was working there. She was kind of like going
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: out and partying. There was an expat scene. How old
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: was she twenties or thirties Okay, had a job there,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: but would go out and was like part of the
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: expat community through just meeting people. She met this guy
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: named Chad and they were friends for a year and
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: a half. She didn't really know him that well. She said,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: they kind of just like were in the same social
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: scene together. The things that she knew about him was
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: that he seemed to be very wealthy. He had this
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: penthouse that he was renting, and he would have these
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: elaborate parties there with like a lot of drugs and partying.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: And he also told her he went to Yale fancy
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and she was just kind of like, I don't know,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I didn't think much about him. We were friends for
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: a couple of years, and then she ended up moving
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: to Hong Kong for a job and then COVID hit
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: and she was like in a hotel room quarantined for
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: a couple of months, just by herself. And she said
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: that at that time Chad ended up becoming kind of
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: a good friend of hers. They would talk on the phone,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: he would check in with her. There was a weird
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: thing where she had left some of her belongings in Portugal,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: and so he offered to ship them to her. He said,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I'll just cover the cost and then you
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: can reimburse me. And it ended up being like more
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: money than she would have expected, and looking back now,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: she wonders if he maybe got a couple hundred dollars
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: out of her, and then she had to fly home.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: She had to fly back to the States because of
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know some visa paperwork, and somehow he said, well,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I have points or I can get you a really
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: good deal on a flight. So he bought her a
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: plane ticket, sent her the ticket, and then she reimbursed him.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: And when she got to the airport she couldn't get
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: on the plane. She thought that it was a problem
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: with the airline. It turns out it was just a
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: fake ticket. Okay, So he's really wealthy. That's what she
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: knows about him. He's thrown these elaborate parties at his
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: penthouse in Portugal, where she initially meets him. They become
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: long distance friends. When she moves to Hong Kong for
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: a job, super wealthy guy needs to be reimbursed for
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: shipping her some of her belongings, but then on the
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: flip side, will generously get her a plane ticket with points. Yeah, okay,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: but she said around that time, a friend of hers
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: in Portugal reached out to her and said something like,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: you know, Chad is not who he says said he
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: is and apparently she heard through the grapevine that he
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: had left Portugal sort of fled and left behind this
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: enormous bill at that place he was renting. It was
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: like forty five thousand dollars or something. So there's a
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: story there, but it's like, okay, So she lost maybe
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: less than one thousand dollars. She lost a couple hundred dollars,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: and then she had this really big headache at the airport.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: It's not a huge scam, but what she told me
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: was that she later found out that he had way
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: more victims and that this was like a small drop
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: in the pool of what he had done.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: How did you find out about all of his other scams?
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, she'd moved away from Portugal by that point.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: She googled him and she found this Facebook page that's
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: dedicated to his victims. When she found it, she said,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: there were like two hundred people in this group. But
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: one of the people that she connected with through Facebook
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: that she then connected me with is Chad's ex wife, Jordana.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: He scammed her too, Yeah, and.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Her story is much more involved and spans multiple years.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And so we did an interview with Jordana, but ultimately
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: for a couple of reasons, we're not going to use
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: all of the tape for a full interview. There is
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: a legal aspect to her story that we actually cannot
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: talk about legally, so I'll explain that later. But because
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: of that, we're going to tell the story, but not
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: with the full interview. We will play clips from the
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: conversation with Jordana. We'll tell you as much as we can.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: We'll tell you as much as we can.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: So Jordana's story starts. She grew up in Hawaii. She
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: calls herself an island girl. She loves living on an island.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: She ended up moving to la in her early adulthood twenties.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: She studied acting. She got some jobs, she actually made
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: some money. She was a stunt woman for a while,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: which is such an interesting career, but she said she
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: didn't really love it. She met and married her first husband, Pete,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: and he was living in Bali, Indonesia, and this was
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: the kind of life that she wanted. She was like,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: LA is too busy for me. I want like a
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: more island life. So she moved there. They got married,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: they had a daughter in two thousand and nine, and
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: here's Jordana.
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: Sold everything I owned, and at that time I saved
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: up a lot of money from the movie business and
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: put my money in stocks and all that kind of stuff.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: So I had a good chunk of money.
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: We opened up the first surf shop ever in Uluwato,
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: and my business was pretty lucrative. I had five houses
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: that I owned and things were going pretty well. But
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: Pete started cheating on me with his second wife or
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: whatever in Sumbawa. So and that was about when my
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: daughter was about one found that out, and so things
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: became pretty rocky at that point.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Five houses, very successful surf shop. Yeah, good for her.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: She's doing well, yeah, you know, but then her marriage
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: ends and she has a child, but she is sort of,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: you know, newly single, and she starts going out and
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: meeting people and through friends of friends. She's at a
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: bar one night and she meets this guy, Chad in
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Bali and she describes him as very preppy. He really
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: stood out. She hung out with mostly surfers, and Chad
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: walks into the bar. He's wearing Ralph Lauren Polo shirts
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: and is buying everybody around of shots and is loud
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: and sort of has that kind of frat boy energy
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: to him, I would say love it, but no, So
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: she's she's kind of like, who is this guy? But
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: then she finds out that he's actually living in Singapore
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: coming to Bali for business and he starts to rent
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: some of her properties when he's there. So through that
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: she gets to know him. And she had to come
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: over to one of the houses to deliver something one point,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: and they sat down and hung out and talked four hours,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: and she said that her opinion of him really shifted
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: at that point. He seemed to be a very cultured,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: educated person. He said that he grew up in San Francisco,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: that he went to Dartmouth, and that he loved to travel,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: and he could speak multiple languages. They talked about wine.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: He seemed to have like a pretty extensive of knowledge
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: about wine.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: So in Shordana's story he went to Dartmouth and Sarah's story, yeah,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: so yeah, he's been very busy. Yeah spoiler alert this
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: and I might not be true.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Right, So she's kind of like, Okay, actually he seems
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: really cool and they become friends. A few months later,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: she tells him she's going to Thailand on a business trip, and.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: I remember telling him that I was going to fly
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: out to Chang Mai and he said, wow, well I'm
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: going to be out that way too, I'll meet you well,
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: we'll do lunch. And I was like, oh, okay, that
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: sounds cool. So I flew into Chang Mai and he
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: said that he was going to meet me at the airport.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I thought okay, So I flew into Chang Myi and
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: he met me at the airport and he tried to
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: kiss me and I was like, no, this is not
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: what we're doing. It's like that, and he got really
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: weird and we ended up going to lunch and he
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: was just acting really really strange, I guess because I
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: didn't kiss him and stuff, and I was like, what's
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: going on and he was like nothing, nothing, nothing, And
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: then he basically told me that he was in love
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: with me and he wanted to marry me, and if
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: I was going to say no, he was never going
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: to talk to me again. And I kind of at
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: this point I was like, well, maybe I'll just go
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: for it. This guy's amazing and he's money, he's smart,
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: he's intelligent.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I actually kind of love this from Jordana because it's like,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I think no one in like their most grounded version
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: of themselves could be drawn in by something like that.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: But she had been through so much right now, She
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: said her first husband, Pete, was cheating on her when
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: she had a one year old. That ends in divorce.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Now she's flying in somewhere for business and this guy
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: likes her enough that he wants to meet her at
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: the airport. Very romantic, very romantic until she says, no,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I don't want to kiss you, and he freaks out.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: But then it's like, well, here's this guy who does
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: really like me, and I'm pushing him away. I mean,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: he seems successful. If you have a daughter, I could
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: see why you would be drawn to someone who maybe
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: can offer some stability.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. The situation can be read multiple ways. Right
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: in hindsight, it feels pretty manipulative, but I can I'm
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: totally with you. I can see how that would feel attractive.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: He's this guy who has his life together and is,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: you know, very clear about what he wants, which can
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: be really attractive. Yeah, and sounds super different from her
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: first husband, who was like surfer bro. Yeah exactly, Yeah,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: very different. Yeah.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: So she jumps in.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: They start dating, and according to Jordana. Things move very quickly.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: He ends up moving to Bali and they get a
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: place together. She did say before he made the official move,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: she went to visit him where he was living in Singapore,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: and this was a bit of a red flag for her.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: He was living in this really big house, but there
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: was hardly anything in it. She was like, they didn't
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: have forks. He had a roommate. So she questioned him
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: about it, but you know, he had a way to
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: explain it away. He was like, well, you know, we're
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: bachelor's and we're working all the time, and I never
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: really meant to live here long term, so it's just
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: been a temporary thing.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: I actually have a close friend who's ultra successful and
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: in one of his houses, he was like, I don't
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: need any dishes. I'm just going to postmates everything. I
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: mean a way that I looked at him in that moment,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: I probably looked like I saw a ghost. But this
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: this predates Postmates. So the excuse is you need forks, right.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I guess he probably was eating out all the time,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: but yeah, why not have some forks. It doesn't make
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: any sense to me. You gotta have at least one fork, Yes,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: at least one fork per person who's living in the
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: house and let this little standard yes, but you know, yeah, okay, cool,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: you're a bachelor. Like it's a little bit of a
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: red flag, but not a big red flag, right. She
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: also meets his colleagues. He's working for a hedge fund
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: in Singapore for a person who Jordana described as a billionaire,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: very successful. And you know, she meets Chad's coworkers, so
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: she knows that he does have a job, and his
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: coworkers seem very similar to him, you know, people with
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: really good educations and that are wealthy.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: So all of it's checking out. He moves to Bali.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: They get a place together, and Chad is paying the bills.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: He's paying for rent, all the bills, everything, but he's
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: pressuring Jordana to escalate their relationship very quickly.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: He really wanted to have a kid. I did not
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: want any other kids. I wanted just one daughter and
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: that's about it. And he really wanted a kid of
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: his own, so he really was pressing that issue. I
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: ended up getting pregnant and we had this elaborate wedding
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: at the Astona and it was the nicest place in
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: Bali at the time. So we flew out all my
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: friends from La and Hawaii. Stepmom came, my brother, and
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: we put him up in villas. And I think we
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: spent almost one hundred and fifty thousand dollars on this
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: crazy elaborate wedding. I had a dul chigamana dress. It
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: was just it was huge.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I can one hundred percent say my wedding did not
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: cost one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Wow. Okay. So
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: kind of similarly to the way he acted at the airport,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: it was like, if we don't have a kid, then
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to blow this up. If we don't have
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: this big wedding, I'm going to blow this up.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of pressure to move quickly, but also
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: throwing her this really elaborate, beautiful wedding of her dreams.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: She focuses on planning the wedding, but there is another
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: red flag that happens. So she invites her family. He
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: invites his family, but he tells her, well, my dad
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: isn't going to come to the wedding because I borrowed
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: some money from him and haven't paid it back yet.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Thirty thousand dollars sort of a drop in the bucket
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: if you're paying one hundred and fifty k for a wedding.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Totally. Like if I'm the dad in that situation, I'm
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: irritated too. Yeah, Like why did you borrow the thirty
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: grand if you had that kind of money to throw
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: it a wedding? Yeah, And he says, I need to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: pay him back so he'll come to the wedding. But
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: my money's all tied up right now, So can I
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: borrow some money from you? And they're married anyway, so
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: like why wouldn't she? Yeah?
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: And she has the money, right, she has had this
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: successful business in Bali, and so she agrees and she
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: gives him thirty thousand dollars to pay to his dad
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: so that his dad will come to the wedding. You know,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: before they got married as well, Chad had convinced her
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: to sell off a lot of her properties that she
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: was renting out. And he presented himself as this guy
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: who really understood finances, and he advised her, you need
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: to get out of this business, sell them off and
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: put that money in an investment account so that it
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: can grow.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: So she did.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: She said she had about three hundred and fifty thousand dollars,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: which was like the extent of everything she'd worked for
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: in her life, all that work in La that she'd
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: made money, and then she'd built this business in Bali,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: you know, everything that she had still maintained throughout her divorce.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: So this was her whole life's work, and so she
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: put it into an investment account. So they get married.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: She said that meeting his family was a little odd.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: They were just a little bit tight lipped. They didn't
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: seem that close to Chad.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: She said. At one point, his mom and sister were
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: walking around their home, and they had a huge home
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: with like a security guard and a chef. She said,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: even with like the weight of the US dollar, it
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter, like it was still clearly it's opulent. Yes, yes,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: And she said that Chad's mom and sister were sort
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: of walking around like looking at things, sort of like
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: they looked shocked or amazed. And this was like a
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: little confusing to Jordana because she was thinking, well, you
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: guys are the wealthy ones. This is where the money
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: is coming from. But okay, cool, Like I don't know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: you have some personal stuff with your son.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: It's fine.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: So they get married and then he says, let's go
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: to Europe for a honeymoon. And they plan this three
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: month long European honeymoon and it is lavish.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: And we rented Ferraris. We had two Ferraris. We had
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: a red Ferrari and a black Ferrari. We stayed at
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: the Saint Regis Hotels, we stayed in presidential suites. We
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: went all throughout Rome, Italy, Positano, the Amalfi Coast. I mean,
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: we just traveled forever and we stayed in the nicest home.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: It was an amazing trip. It was just like, oh
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: my god, this is amazing. Where I'm living the dream.
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: I'm like driving Ferraris, We're seeing all these fancy places.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: We were shopping, I mean it just bought Gucci everything,
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: and I thought, God, this is I don't have to
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: work anymore.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: This is this man's amazing.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: And he speaks all these different languages and he did,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: like everywhere we went. He could speak a little French,
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: he could speak a little German, he spoke a little Italian,
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: spoke Portuguese almost fluently. So that was just like, wow,
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: amazing where we went. He could speak a little bit
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: of everything. So it was just a lot of fun.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: It sounds fun, yeah, and he can actually speak these languages. Okay,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: But now I'm thinking, like, because we know a little
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: bit like where this is headed, I don't speak any
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: of those languages, so someone could easily fool me. And
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: now I'm curious, does he really speak all those languages?
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: It's a very good question, actually, Okay, quick little detour.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: It reminds me of this moment whenever we were doing
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: the cat cult story. So the cat cult story is
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: like this cult story. This woman, Cheryl Ruth Finn ran
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: this cult and part of her whole ideology was that
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: she wanted her followers to adopt a lot of cats
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: as we get them into Heaven, et cetera. But one
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: of the things that she did was she would take
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: her followers on these like sort of missionary trips to Europe.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: But really it seemed like she just wanted to travel, right,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: because she'd always be like, we have to go to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Italy because there's some spiritual thing happening there. But then
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: they would just sort of be traveling and looking at
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: art and eating good food. And someone was telling me
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: they went to this church with her in Italy, and
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: she was like really like talking about how there were
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: demons there she was fighting them, and this person came
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: up and was speaking to her in Italian, and Cheryl
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: started speaking back. She does not speak Italian. No, she
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: was speaking gibberish. And then the person was like speaking
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: back to her in Italian and she was saying something back,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and then they finally left, and the person I was
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: interviewing was like, I could tell by the way the
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: interaction happened that she wasn't speaking Italian and the person
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: was trying to understand what language she was speaking and
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: was confused. But the way that she told her followers
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: like God gave me the gift to speak to this
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: person and we were battling spiritually or whatever. Oh, this
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: was a demon she was fighting off. She was, Yeah,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: it was like some sort of spiritual battle. I actually, yeah,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I remember this from the tape that was so long ago.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: But if you're someone who wasn't really like fully paying
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: attention and you don't know Italian, you could have seen
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: that and thought, oh, well, she's she knows Italian, or
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: you know, you're.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Also in so deep at that point you're in Italy
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: with her. You have to believe you're believing. Yeah, so
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I do wonder now that you bring that up. It's like,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: maybe something like this is happening. Is he really speaking German?
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he is, maybe he's not, But
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: she certainly believed that he was right right. And I
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: also think, I mean, similar to the story you just
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: told about Cheryl Ruthven in Italy. It's like she's loving
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: this trip, and I think that we can all relate to, Like,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: if you're enjoying your life, you don't want to start
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: believing that it's not real. You want to just enjoy it.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she has met a man who is wealthy and
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: committed to her and loves her and threw her this
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: elaborate wedding and is now taking her to Europe for
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: three months. Yeah, like that's something she wants to believe in.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: I asked her who was paying for this trip, and
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: she was like, well, it was a mix.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Sometimes he would pay in cash for things. Sometimes he
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: would ask me to put things on my credit card.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: She said, the Ferrari rental went on her credit card.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: If a Ferrari rental was going on my credit card,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I would say, we can have one ferrari. We don't
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: need two different colors. Yeah, I'd be like, I don't know.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And by the way, can we just take the bus?
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Public transport. Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's that thing of She was like, he
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: just has money. Rich people they're sort of like, oh, well,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: you cover this and I'll get you back. It seemed
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: like he gave off this vibe of I'm not really
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: concerned about it because obviously I pay you back because
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I have so much money, And she said that he
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: would pay her back sometimes he would pay her credit
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: card statements as well well, so she just sort of
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: felt like, Okay, I'm going to trust him with all
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: of this. He's got it under control. Sometimes I might
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: have to put something on my credit card, but no
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: big deal.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: They're married. Yeah.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Then about four months after they get married, so they've
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: been in Europe for three months, they come back. Her
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: daughter needs to go back to the US for a
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: medical procedure. So Jordana goes back to the US with
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: her daughter she's pregnant, and essentially Chad ends up telling
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: her like, I think we should just move back to
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: the US, Like, don't come back to BALI, we need
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: to move back to the US. I have business there.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Let's just go.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: So she says okay, and ask him how much they
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: can afford and rent. She's like, I'll start looking for
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: a place. He says ten thousand dollars a month. So
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: they find a house in Salceledo and move in and
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: she said it is a very nice house. They're renting it,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, he outfits the house. They got furniture,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: they ship a bunch of stuff from Bali, which is expensive.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: They have two cars, a BMW and a range Rover.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And at this point something happens that makes Jordanas start
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: to question things.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: This is when I started finding out about Chad, when
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: Hurtz came to take the cars away from our house,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: which I thought we owned the cars. So that's when
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: I started finding out that we didn't own the cars.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: And then I.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: Started questioning him and he said, well, you know, I
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: got to rent these cars because we don't really have
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: the money to buy cars right now. We don't know
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: if we're going to stay here, and I'm running the
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: cars because I have to look for the piece. Because
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: he was going to open an investment company in San Francisco,
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: and he always said that if I don't have a
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: fancy house and if I don't have fancy cars, then
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: nobody's going to invest in my company. And I thought, okay, well,
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: you're spending like three thousand dollars a month for these cars.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: I was like, why can't you just buy a car
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: instead of spending like three to four thousand dollars a
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: month for these these cars. It doesn't make sense, you know,
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: like all this stuff doesn't make sense.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, she's right, doesn't make any sense. It's also
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: like thinking that she was pregnant and already had one
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: child she was caring for. That means you are just
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: so busy, Like you can wake up and start thinking
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: about all these questions that are coming up for you
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: about your life and your husband's choices. But then you've
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: got to go take care of your kid, and you're pregnant,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: You're going to a bunch of appointments, You're trying to
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: figure out your living situation. It's like your world is spinning.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: You don't have time to just sit down and like
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: be a sleuth about it.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know she's also figuring out custody situation
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: with her daughter because her daughter's father is still in Bali,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: so they're sort of trying to figure that out. She
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: has so much going on, and she said Chad just
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: kind of always had again a way to talk about
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: things and explain things to her. She did say when
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Hurts came to get the cars, Chad wasn't home and
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Jordana asked them what was going on, and they said, well,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: he hasn't paid for over three months on these, So
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: that was alarming to her, and then you know, she
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: started to think about what he was spending money on.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: He had rented this office space in downtown San Francisco
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to get his investment company going. She had visited the
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: office and she knew it was an expensive part of
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: town and he had outfitted it with all new computers.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: He had hired his friends. She said, he took some
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: of the people of the company out to a holiday
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: party at this very expensive restaurant and the bill was
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: like five thousand dollars. So she was just thinking, why
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: are you spending all this money when you're just getting
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: your company going. So the question started to add up.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: And you know, she didn't know Chad's family very well,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: but she knew that his sister lived in Oakland, so
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: at this point she decided that she needed to make
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: contact and trying to get some answers.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: And I just called her one day and I said, Hillary,
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: I need to talk to you about something.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: Can you meet me?
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: And I just started telling her all kinds of stuff
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: about Chad. You know, he went to Darmouth, and she
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: confirmed that he never went to Darmouth. He went to
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: Chatsworth in southern California for like a month or something,
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: never graduated college. And I said, well, he's from San
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: Francisco and she goes, no, we're from Texas.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: And I was like okay, and just.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: I think there were some other things too, and she
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: just basically confirmed with me. I remember she said to me,
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: she just goes, you got to get away from him.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Wow. Everything he told me was a lie. I didn't know.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I was always kind of scared of Chad too, because
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: he was just so every time I questioned him about something,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: he would get really defensive and then you always had
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: a good answer, but he was just really get really
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: angry that I questioned him or asked him anything. He
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: always kind of kept me down and just made me
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: just he didn't want to know anything about him. I
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: couldn't even get in the computers at home. He changed
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: the passwords constantly to the computers, which I always thought
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: was weird. I just couldn't know anything about his life.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: He was gone constantly. I was at home by myself
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: like a lot. And then we started having financial problems
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: with rent. We couldn't make rent.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: That's so strange because she had met his sister at
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: the wedding. It's like I can remember the first time
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I met my now husband's family. You know, you make
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: small talk.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm surprised that Moore didn't come up at
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the wedding. But if his family was in a situation
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: where they thought everything was weird, they probably wouldn't talk
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: to her too much or give her too much information
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: because you might feel like, well, this is a wedding.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I don't want to like start a problem here. Yeah.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I also wonder if maybe they thought that she was
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: in on it, hmm, yeah, if he had a history
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of doing things like this. She didn't go into detail
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: about that, but the fact that he owed his dad
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars, you have to think there was something
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: going on there. So I wonder if they thought maybe
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: she's part of this. I don't know, right, because when
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: you're on the outside of something, it's.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Like, how could you not know? Yeah, exactly. So this
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: is obviously a horrible situation that Geordana finds herself in. Especially, Yeah,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: she's like eight months pregnant at this point and they're married,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: and you know, she's worried, but she doesn't know what
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: to do. She calls her best friend, but her best
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: friend is kind of like, well, I don't know what
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: to do. Maybe there's an explanation for this. Another thing
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: that's happened that you know, is a trend in a
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: lot of controlling relationships, is that he's kind of isolated
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: her from her family and from a lot of her
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: support system. Some of that is because she said some
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: people in her family really didn't like him, so then
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: that kind of created some distance she had. When they
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: first moved back to the States, planned on going out
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: and getting a job, and he strongly advised her against it,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: pretty forcefully, saying that will make me look really bad.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: If you start going out and getting a job, it's
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: going to look like I don't have all this money
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: to support you. Plus you're pregnant, So she sort of agreed.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: So she doesn't have a job, she doesn't you know,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: have a support system, and she has no choice but
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to just trust him. Right now, she's eight months pregnant.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: What's she going to do. Yeah, he's really becoming more
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and more controlling, like she said it, with the computer
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: password and stuff. But you know, she has a safety
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: net that three hundred and fifty thousand dollars that she
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: put into an investment account that she's continuing to get
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: statements on it and it's accruing, you know, money, and
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: so she has bigger concerns about Chad. But she's thinking,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: we need to address the current problems, which is that
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: we're behind on rent. So let's get out of debt.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: So she tells Chad, Okay, look, why don't we dip
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: into my money and we can pair a back rent
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and we'll at least just like get ahead of things.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But until your company takes off. And that is when
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: he looks at her and reveals that there is no
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: more money.
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: WHOA, that's so scary finding out basically that I don't
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: have any money. Well, what I think is is that
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: he had access to my bank account. I think I
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: paid for my wedding. I think I paid for the honeymoon,
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I paid for my wedding dress, I paid for my ring,
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: I paid for I paid for everything, and I didn't
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: know I was paying for everything. So that's kind of
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: when I realized that he was using all my might
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: to do everything that we were doing.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: But she was getting statements and he worked at the
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: hedge fund where he said he had invested her money.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: It's a little strange. She put the money in a
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: bank account in a bank in Bali. He went with
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: her to set that account up, and she didn't think
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: that he had access to it. She doesn't know how
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: he did this. She thinks that maybe he bribed someone
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: working at the bank. He somehow got involved and was
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: able to send her fake statements while he actually took
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: all the money out and was just using it. And
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: by now she's somewhat isolated from her friends and family
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: who never really thought highly of Chad, and his own
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: family is telling her to get away from him, but
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: she just moved. But she's about to have a baby,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: and where's she going to go if she doesn't have
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: any money. I mean, I think she said exactly that.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: It's like she's not going to go sign another lease.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: She can't. No, she doesn't have a job, she doesn't come,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: she doesn't have any money.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: But where am I going to go? What am I
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: going to do? There's nowhere for me to go.
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: I'm you know, I'm I have no money and now
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: I feel like I'm really stuck with this man.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: It was horrible, and that's when I really became really really.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: I just remember living with him and just feeling, I
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: mean the entire time like I was just living in
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: this bubble in my head and I was just walking
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: around like I was just a zombie.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I wasn't even like a real person.
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: I was just I remember just being foggy and waking
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: up and felt like I was living not even in
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: a movie. I mean movie, you're like even like there's
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: a clear picture. I was just a foggy mess.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: And what she ends up finding out is that back
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: when she was living in Bali, Chad had met some
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: of her mutual friends and through them had found out
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: that she was recently single from her husband and that
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: she had all these businesses. And she believes that then
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: he started intentionally renting her properties in order to get
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: to know her, and then pursue her romantically for this intention,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: So she was like targeted target someone that she thought
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: was like falling in love with her.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she doesn't really have a choice of what
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: to do right now because she's giving birth to her child.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: She goes into the hospital. Chat is nowhere to be seen.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: He's out partying with his friends. According to her, she
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: said he showed up a couple of days later drunk,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: and the next months are a blur for her. She
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: is just trying to survive, you know, with this newborn.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: He's again not around. She doesn't know what he's doing.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: He's out in San Francisco, hobnobbing with people. And a
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: few months go by, I think she said, like six
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: months to where she finally kind of was out of
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: that like Hayes of having a newborn baby and just thought,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I have to get out out of here. I don't
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: know what I'm going to do. I'll just go stan
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: in a friend's couch or something. She packs up. I
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: think her daughter was with her dad at this point,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: and she's leaving and Chad comes home, confronts her and
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: it's not a good situation.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: He assaults her. He sexually assaults her, and she'll later
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: learn that she has gotten pregnant again from that. And
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: this is all taking place still in California.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: H wow.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's starting to realize that he's incredibly violent
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: and dangerous. There's another incident in which he's physically violent
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: and she does call the police and he's arrested on
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: domestic violence charges. Ultimately, she decides not to press charges,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: you know, which is I think understandable. It's one of
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: those things that's hard to sort of get from the outside,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: but from you know, different people we've talked to in
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: the context of everything that she's going through mentally and
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: physically at this time, is just where her head was at.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: She was worried that if she pressed charges then you know,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't be able to help her out financially. He's
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: her only lifeline at this point, even though he's abusing her.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a complicated, horrible situation that she's in.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, she needs to get the money back
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: that he took from her, yeah, to survive. But at
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: this point, you know, they're still living in this huge
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: home that's like ten thousand dollars a month, and they're
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: laid on their payments. The electricity is being turned off
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: because Chad's not paying the bills, and then she finds
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: out that he's starting to get sued by people in
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: the area. So we actually looked into that, and there
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: are multiple civil lawsuits against him from that period of
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: time early twenty fifteen, when he was still living in
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: the Bay Area.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: So the first lawsuit, it looks like it was filed
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen. In May of twenty fifteen, the plaintiff
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: who's suing chadwick Kauser is I might be pronouncing this wrong,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Rothgar Investments Limited, And it says, you know, breach of
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: contract and we couldn't find much else about it. But
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: that's in May of twenty fifteen. And so there's another
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: lawsuit that comes into play in April of twenty fifteen,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: so I guess that predates this last one by a month.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: But Chad is alleged of owing more than three hundred
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars. He's being accused of fraud. Yeah wow. And
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: it looks like the person who filed this complaint is
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: saying that he loaned Chad three hundred thousand dollars and
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: that Chad said he owned a condo in San Francisco,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: and he used that to secure the loan, which he
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: did not and also seems like he just didn't pay
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: this money back. But you can assume, based on the
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: information that Jordana gave that he was starting this investment company,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: that he was starting to get all of these investments
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: or loans from people but not paying anyone back. Yeah,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: it sounds like it was more Ponzi scheme esque, like, Okay,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell Jordana, my wife that I've invested
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: her life savings. It's growing since I've invested it, so well,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: I'm going to send her fake statements and in the meantime,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell this guy to give me three
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars is a loan, and that I have
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: all of these assets. And then he's spending all of
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: it and runs out, can't find someone else to fraud,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I guess, and then it of course crumbles.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of this is going down, and you know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: his scams are catching up to him, and then they
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: find out they're getting evicted from their home. And so
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: this is another point in the story where it's one
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: of those things that I think Jordana felt like she
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: didn't have any options, but he basically said, we're moving
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: back to Bali. She's pregnant again, so she goes they
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: move back to Bali. She also does have some community
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: in Bali. Yeah, so at least, you know, she has
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: friends there and her eldest daughter's father still lives there.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they move back. She has her second child
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: with Chad, who is also a son. But things just
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: get progressively worse, and essentially Chad confiscates both of their
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: children's passports and refuses to let Jordana have access to them.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: So eventually things get so bad that they do end
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: up splitting up. But this is after an incident in
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: which he's tried to run her over with a car
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: and she ends up in the hospital. I mean, this
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: is a horrible, violent man, and she doesn't really understand why.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: But he finally agrees to sort of let her go,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: let her move out and get her own apartment. He
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: offers to help pay for it, which is in contrast
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: to previously when she tried to leave him, he had
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: told her things like You'll never be able to leave me,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: So she doesn't really understand why, but she is now
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out a plan. You know, she is
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: living in her own apartment, they're sharing custody of the suns,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: and she doesn't have access to her children's passports.
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: I think it was just a control thing of trying
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: to control because I ended up finding a place to
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: live and Chad decided that we were going to split
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: the kids. So at that point I was at his mercy.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: I didn't really know what I was going to do.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: I wasn't going to leave my kids in Indonesia. I
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: wasn't going to leave my kids with him. And I thought, well,
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: I find get my own place, and Chad said, well,
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: I'll help you find a place, you know, and I'll
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: help pay for the rent and all that kind of stuff.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: Unbeknownst to me, he had found another girl, a girl
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: that he wanted to be with. He ended up ripping
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: her off too, so that was he wanted me out
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: of the picture so he could go on to his
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: next victims.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: So that was his thing.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: That has to just be so confusing because you're relieved
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: that for whatever reason, he's allowing you to live in
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: your own space, but having to like keep things I
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: mean peaceful is the wrong word, but like your share
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: custody of your sons. Yeah, she's not going to leave
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: her kids in Indonesia. You know she might never see
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: them again.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know she's trying to sort of play
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: this horrible game of you know, not angering him to
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: both protect herself and her children while also trying to
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: figure out, like how does she get out of this.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: And she's also in a foreign country. She knows people
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: in Bali, but it's not like the same as being
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: in the US where she understands sort of you know,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: the laws or whatever. There's different there. But she does
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: hatch a plan. She needs to get passports for her sons.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: She ends up sort of figuring out where these passports are,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: and the way that she describes going about trying to
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: get them up to date is a little bit like
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: she contacts this guy. I don't know how she's met
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: this guy, right. She calls him a corrupt cop guy,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: but he claims he can help her get the passports,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: get them updated. She specifically tells him, do not tell
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Chad any of this. Keep this between us.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: I went to him and I told him that, you know,
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: Chad was a con artist, and I'm paying for the
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: passports you need to give them to me. Please do
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: not give them to Chad. Give them back to me,
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: because I had to go to like the embassy in
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: Chakarto and all that kind of stuff to get them
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: up to date. So anyways, I remember dropping the boys
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: off with Chad, and I remember thinking I might not
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: ever see my kids again. I remember thinking that, just
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: like I think I'm making the biggest mistake of my
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: life right now. He had him for the week and
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: he was supposed to drop him off to me, but
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: then you know, that next weekend and stuff, and supposed
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: to be there at my house at like eleven ended
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: up being like noon, and he's like, oh, there's.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: A lot of traffic, blah blah blah blah.
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: And I was like, okay, one o'clock comes, Oh, we
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: decided to have lunch. Goes on and on and on,
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: and then it just went on to like three, four, five, six,
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: and I never heard from him, and I just knew
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: that he he got the passports and tricked me. In
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: the next morning, I went up to I got about
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: like six o'clock in the morning. I took my car
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: and I drove to the Indonesian the den Batar Airport,
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: and drove all the way up to the top of
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: the parking where nobody parks and uh, that's where his
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: car was parked with the boys is car seats in it,
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: and he was gone, so he got the passports. He
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: paid more money for the passports to the guy.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: So the person that Jordana went to for help, like
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: totally desperate, just turned around and basically added her whole
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: plan to Chad, who then kidnaps really the boys and
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: leaves the country without asking their mom. Yeah. I cannot
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: even comprehend what I would feel like as a mother.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, anyone I think can see how traumatizing that
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: would be, especially because like she has no means, he's
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: her source of income, and again she's in a foreign
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: country and he's left the country, she assumes, but he
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: could be anywhere in the world. Yeah, it's horrible. She
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: said that she.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Basically ended up flying back to the States to LA
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: and staying on a friend's couch. She's, you know, frantically
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: calling him, trying to get a hold of trying to
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: get any information. Her kids are two and one at
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: this point. She said that she heard nothing from him
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: for three months. For three months, she had no idea.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: So she goes back to the US. I mean, who
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: do you call, Like, do you call the police, do
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: you call the FBI? I mean, what do you do
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: in that situation? They're taken from Bali, but they were
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: born in the US. And she has another daughter whose
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: dad is in Bali. So she's back and forth. I mean,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: that's just like chaos. Yeah, she said she made a
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: report with LAPD. She was in contact with Inner Poll. Okay,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I mean that seems like the right steps to take,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: but then it's sort of like they're like, cool, we'll
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: take the report. So then she starts just doing whatever
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: she can. She makes Facebook posts, She's trying to spread
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: the word. She at one point goes up to the
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Bay Area where Chad's parents are, Chad's dad and stepmoma,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: and is like posting pictures around everywhere of her kids
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: and of Chad just to try to get them to
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: sort of pay attention to her and get involved. Literally,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: she said, she's not sleep being she's trying everything that
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: she can. So this is where we get to the
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: point of the story where we can't really say a
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: lot legally, but essentially, you know, she's doing everything that
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: she can going through all of the channels reporting nothing
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: is happening.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: She's desperate.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: So her friend says, well, I know this guy through
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: film and TV, the actor Basil Boz. I'm just looking
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: at his website, best known for his role at NBC's
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: The Blacklist.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I've never seen that he's an actor.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: He's done a lot of things, but yes, he's an actor,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: and he is one of the founded members of this
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: organization called Association for the Recovery of Children. And so
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: her friend puts Jordana in touch and they end up
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: taking on Jordana's case. Now, we can't say anything about
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: that because I was in contact with them, and Jordana
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: signed an NDA. They're very secretive, I guess about their
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: organizations told me a little bit about this. So Jordana
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: tells this story on tape and then we, like just
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: our normal process, you reach out to this person and say, hey,
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: can you tell me about this story I heard and
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: your perspective on it, and then you hear back, Yeah.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: They did not want to talk. They basically said, don't
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: use that tape because we are litigious. So I said, okay,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: we won't. So we are not going to talk about
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: any of the details. There's probably a lot that we
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: don't even know. Jordana didn't tell us all of the details.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: But just to be safe, we're not going to go
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: into any of them. But what I will do is,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: you know, on their website they do have some of
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: their missions listed with photos and Jordana is actually on there.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: So because it's on their website, I can read it
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: because it's public information. It's a picture of Jordana and
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: her two kids, Howser Boys twenty sixteen, Europe. It says,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: according to our intelligence, Chad Hauser and his mother, Peggy Hauser,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: blazed a corruptible path through the United States and foreign countries,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: stealing money from individuals and institutions. In February of twenty sixteen,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: they illegally abducted Harrison, age two, in Pierce, age one,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: from their legal custodial garden, mother, Jordana Hauser, in a
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: joint operation between ARC Association for the Recovery of Children
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: and the Swiss Police. The children were recovered on June tenth,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Peggy Hauser was detained while Chadhuser escaped apprehension.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: A warrant for Chad in Peggy Howser's arrest is currently
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: in effect in the US. Wow. I wonder if it
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: is it still an effect. I think so.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Jordana said that if Chad comes back to the US
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: at this point, he'll be arrested.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Wow. But it's interesting that he was with his mother,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: So his biological mother who was who had been in Texas,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: who I think Jordana had never met, but as she
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: met this step mom, Yes, was with him in Europe
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: with these kids that he had kidnapped. So it sounds
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: like his mother was kind of part of this whole scheme. Wow.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: That is so scary, especially because like as a mother,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: how could you do that? How could you not say, like,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: you might not like your ex wife, you might not
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: get along, but she can't take her kids from her
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: and leave the country and not say anything and not
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: tell her if they're okay anything for months. So ARC
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: is just this organization that is not associated with any
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: government agency, but they have former CIA FBI people working
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: for them to help he recover children in the cases
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: of parental abduction or trafficking. Yeah, so that's what happened.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: So she did get her children back.
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: I know a lot more than I knew that, and
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: I pretty much know a lot of what he does.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: So I've had probably a good in I mean the
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: thousands for sure of people that have shared for some reason.
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: After I recovered my children and kind of went back
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: to Oregon and all that kind of stuff, I still
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: would get. I would get tons. We had a website
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: up about Chad. I never did the website everybody thinks
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: I did, but there was a website about Chad. So
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: when he googled Chad, it would come up with all
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: of his schemes and all that kind of stuff and
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: ended up going down for some reason. I think Chad
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: figured out about it or something. But I would get
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: a lot of emails and Facebook messengers of all these
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: stories of all these people that Chad had ripped off,
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: and they wanted to know kind of like or is
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: this real?
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Or you know, we were friends, why would he do
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: this to me?
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: And you know, we went got skiing together, we went
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: to Puerto Rico together, and all this stuff, and he
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: was my friend. And I mean tons, it was almost
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: like three a day for like years that people would
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: just say, I'm like, you're never getting your money back.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: He's not your friend. This is what he does. You know,
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: it's just I was a target. Everybody's a target. He's
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: never had one friend in his entire life. You know,
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: he's family. It's not that close with anybody. It's funny
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: because I never knew what a sociopath was before and
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: what I and to try to understand it. I remember
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: the LAPD the detective there, he was like, you're never
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: going to understand it because you're not that. You can
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: never understand it because you're not like somebody that goes
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: down the street and is a serial kill alawer and
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: just goes kills random women just for fun. That's pretty
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: much what Chad does. He goes and ruins your life
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: for fun. He doesn't care that you're going to be homeless.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: It's just what he does. He doesn't think about what
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: we think about, you know, like, oh my god, this
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: is going to be Jordiana and her poor kids. You know, no,
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: there's nothing. He doesn't give a shit about his kids.
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: I'm close with his family. I mean we were just
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: out in San Francisco when I just saw his real
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: dad and his stepmom, which I'm actually really close with him.
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: He's known where I'm at. All this he's never reached
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: out and sent a card. He could, he could send
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: it to his dad, His dad could send it to
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: the boys. I mean, he's never ever reached out to
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: do anything. He does not care about anything. And I
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: don't know why he took the kids. I think it
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: was a ploy to and I think he told everybody
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: that I was dead, you know, and like I think
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: it was like another.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: Con all these poor kids. You know, I'm dad, But
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't really know.
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: I don't even question anymore because I don't give a
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: crap about that guy anymore at all. He's a horrible
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: human being. He's ruined a lot of people's lives. He
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: ruined I'd say he ruined my life more than anybody
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: because I was not rich and I hadge fun person
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: or anything. I'm like, worked really hard to have what
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: I had and that was all I had, and it
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: took me about I have my own business now, but
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: took me a good ten years to get back on
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: my feet.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, I was literally really dying for a lot
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: of years.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: That's interesting that she's now close with his father and stepmother.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I mean that for me really like brings into focus
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: how obvious it is that what he's doing is malicious
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: if his own father is like, yeah, this guy's no
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: good and we're on your side here. Yeah, and they
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: want to be part of their grandson's lives and they are.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: And so that's a nice part of the story that
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: they have been able to connect. And she also said
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: that she does feel some comfort that, you know, legally
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: he's not allowed to come back into the US, so
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: there's some level of safety there. But what a saga
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: that she had to go through. Yeah, wow. And so
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: I checked out this Facebook page. Yeah, okay, so tell
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: me about the Facebook page. So there's a ton of
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: different people posting that he has defrauded them. One woman,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Montana Burnette, looks like she lives in Toronto and this
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: is a public Facebook page anyone can access it says
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: that he claimed to her to own multiple properties I
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: think in France. She posted a screenshop reaching out to
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: maybe a realtor or someone that he said he was
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: associated with, and the person responds never heard about this
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: person thinks like, oh wow, complete lie. Yeah, and then
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: another person posts that he went to college with Chad
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: ran into him in Hong Kong in twenty twelve, and
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: he was like asking this friend who's posting, do you
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: know an attorney? My cheating ex took the kids. It's like, well,
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: she didn't take the kids. Oh, Chad said that. Chad
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: said that, Wow, she didn't take the kids. Well, And
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: what's interesting about this post is this person Greg says
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: I went to college with Chad, ran into him in
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Hong Kong around two thousand and seven, remained in contact
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: for years. Around twenty twelve, he asked for an attorney
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: something about his cheating ex. So then Jordiana comments Chad
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: never went to college, roasted good job.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Jordana, Well, twenty twelve is interesting. I wonder if he
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: was just making up some story because they were together then,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: and but she was starting to see the writing on
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: the wall, like this guy's not who he says he is.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: The money isn't what he said it was in twenty twelve.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Is that wrong?
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: I think it was more like twenty fourteen ish. I
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: think is more like when that's happening. Yeah, I have
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: no idea that what he would have been talking about.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: They moved back to Bali in twenty fifteen.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: But we're doing that thing where we're trying to like
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: rationalize it. He could have just been doing some sob
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: story totally, I need money for an attorney.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: My ex she cheated and took the kids. Yeah, like
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: he basically just wanted money. Probably he was trying to
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: get money.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So many people on this page compare him
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: to Anna Delvi. Hmmm interesting. Yeah, how many people are
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: on the Facebook page now? Yeah, it has almost five
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: hundred members. One hundred and ninety seven members are on
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: the page. There's people all over the world commenting that
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: he has defrauded them, and it's the same story. It's like,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: presented himself as someone who was super wealthy, very successful,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and then little snappo need to use your credit card
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: and then just start. In one case, one woman says
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: that he used it without her authorization many many, many times,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: and continued using it after she reported him.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: It's horrible and it's always just too We see with
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: stories like this that someone is able to get away
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: with it for so long because they do things like
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: change locations, fly to a different country. He used slightly
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: different versions or spellings of his name, so there's those
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: little tricks like that. But of course, you know, if
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: this is your life, You've created a life where you're
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: just always having to run and always having to lie.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: What is the endpoint?
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Right? You know, it's never coming back here. He'll be
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: arrested and he knows that. One of the posts is
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: he was arrested in Copenhagen in twenty twenty two, but
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: then let go. And I mean, I don't know anything
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: about that, but I assume, like, if you're being arrested
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: in Copenhagen for something you did somewhere else, that's probably
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: pretty complicated because what do you do bring in all
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: of those people to try a case or you know,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: however it works there, Like, that's probably very expensive and difficult. Yeah.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Also, he seems like he is able to get out
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: of things, like that posting from the ARC website that
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: his mom was arrested and he was he couldn't be found,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Like what happened? He made his own mom. Yeah, and
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: then he's like arrested in Copenhagen but then let go.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: So Yeah. One of the members of this group posted
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: a poll for the other members the options I've lost
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: money to Chad and he has yet to pay it back.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: And then there's bunch of others, the two with the
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: highest percentage by far forty percent say I've lost money
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: to Chad and he has yet to pay it back.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: Forty four percent I've never met Chad, but have friends
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: or family affected by losing money to him.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: Well, we really appreciative that Jordana spoke with us, and
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: good to be aware that Chad is out there. He's
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: still out there.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think ARC wants to seek with us,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: but if they change their mind.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they really did not, but I would love to
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: do an interview with them.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: That sounds really here about really cool. Yeah, Okay, so
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: let's do some quick recommendations. Do you want to before
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: we wrap up?
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: All right?
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: So, I'm halfway through a podcast that I'm really liking it.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: It's called In Her Defense, and it's about a woman
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: named Helen Naslund who was convicted of killing her husband
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: on their Alberta farm. Okay, but she had been suffering
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: so much abuse for decades and decades by her husband
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: and the neighbors. The interviews with her son, it really
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: paints a picture of how difficult her life was and
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: whether or not she killed him, like she had no
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: other way to get help. In her mind, that was
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: reality for her, and so I think the interviews are
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: really powerful, and it's just one of those podcasts that
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: makes you think, like you meet someone and you really
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: have no idea what they're going through, or you are
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: unsure how to help, so you don't do anything because
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: you don't want to say the wrong thing. You don't
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: want to make a problem where there isn't one, or
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: offend someone. But they understood something was off about the marriage,
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: but not everyone knew the extent of the abuse. They
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: had a son in nineteen eighty four. So he does
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of the interviews. I actually found the story
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: because I read about an interview he did and then
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: saw there was already a podcast. Oh gotcha, what is
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: his stance? Well, I guess you don't want to give
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: it away. I don't want to give anything away, but
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: the interviews are very telling and at least really made
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: me think, you know, if someone is in a dangerous situation,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: I'd rather them be irritated that I called someone and
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: told someone, then look back later. And that's not to
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: say these people did anything wrong. I wasn't in their
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: shoes in that moment, but to hear that a lot
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: of people had an idea something was happening. Is it's sad.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it just makes me think I want to learn
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: more about what qualifies as self defense because you would
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: think that that would qualify as self defense. And also
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: makes me think about that that story of that woman
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: who was being trafficked and she killed her trafficker young.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: She's young. I didn't even know was she's a minor.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Maybe I think she was a miner, and then she's
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: being charged for that for his murder.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't recall she's a miner or just a
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: very young adult. But either way, Yeah, I know what
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: you're talking about, and it's mind blowing because I can
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: only imagine what someone's psychological state is in that moment
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: you're just trying to survive. That sounds like a good podcast.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: I will check it out.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, I have a podcast as well. Actually heard about
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: this from the podcast Queen's Instagram. They do a lot
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: of recommendations Sea of Lies. Have you heard of this one?
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: I have seen it on that charts when to go
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: look for ours See of Lies from Uncover. It's a
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: CBC podcast and I think I'm four episodes in out
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: of seven, and it's really good. I'll just read this
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: first little descriptor. A body is pulled from the ocean,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: and a race against time to capture one of the
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: world's most wanted criminals begins. What I like about this
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: podcast is I think they do a really good job
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: of structuring the show. They keep you interested, and there's
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: twists and turns, and as you go, the story keeps
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: unfolding in a way that's really satisfying and interesting. So
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: I would recommend it cool. I'll check it out real
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: quick because I mentioned it. I just looked it up.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Crystal Kaiser was seventeen and twenty eighteen when she shot
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Randall Vohler, and he had been abusing her and filming
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: it for more than a year before she killed him.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Before he was killed, and last year she was sentenced
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: to eleven years in prison, she accepted a plea deal.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: It's like, how could that be?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: She was a minor, she was being abused. You know,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: obviously it's complicated, but like to define self defense, but
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it just doesn't seem just it
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: seems like she was clearly trying to defend herself from
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: a very horrible, violent situation.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean even thinking about that cat could story,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: which is wildly different than this one. It's like, I
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: imagine in a situation where someone is exercising that level
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: of control over another person, let alone a child, it's
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: like you don't know up from down, Like you don't
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: know what to do to get out of something peacefully,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: if that's even a realistic option. Yeah, I don't know
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: a lot about the case, but it sounds very unjust. Well,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: that is our episode for today. Thanks for listening. We'll
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: see you next week. If you have a story for us,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: we would love to hear it. Our email is The
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Knife at exactly Rightmedia dot com, or you can follow
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or a Blue
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: by me Hannah Smith.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: And me Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Brievogel and
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Alexis Samarosi. This episode was mex by Tom Bryfogel. Our
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Birds in the Airport, artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer,