Latest / UK Column Radio / Language, Immigration, and Multiculturalism | Jerm Warfare

Transcript

Language, Immigration, and Multiculturalism | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is Jim Wolfe The Battle
0:33
Speaker 1: of Ideas. It's just you and me today. Don Mike.
0:37
Speaker 2: I know he's deserted us, but only for a couple
0:40
Speaker 2: of weeks. So I think we'll manage, won't we.
0:44
Speaker 1: If? If if I must, yessah, I got a little
0:50
Speaker 1: a little bit of a cold, so I'm going to
0:51
Speaker 1: ask that you helped me out a little bit today.
0:54
Speaker 1: I'll do my best and.
0:57
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, And I think it's gound be interesting to
0:59
Speaker 2: have a different and a different perspective. Obviously, we've recorded
1:03
Speaker 2: just two of us before, and just changing that dynamic
1:06
Speaker 2: a bit will always yield a different result.
1:10
Speaker 1: I think.
1:10
Speaker 2: Also the other thing to say is I don't want
1:13
Speaker 2: to overdo it, but but the fact that Mike is
1:15
Speaker 2: just able to have a bit of time off is
1:18
Speaker 2: it is fantastic.
1:19
Speaker 1: You know.
1:19
Speaker 2: I'm very very pleased for him that he's but he
1:22
Speaker 2: has got a couple of weeks off, which is terrific,
1:26
Speaker 2: and I think I'm sure we'll do him a lot
1:29
Speaker 2: of good.
1:30
Speaker 1: So I'll said to you that last week I had
1:34
Speaker 1: some talking points which we didn't get to at all,
1:37
Speaker 1: and that's the nature of casual benter I mean, we'll
1:41
Speaker 1: try and get to we'll try and get to those
1:43
Speaker 1: talking points today. Just you and I? Is that you
1:47
Speaker 1: and me or you and I? I never know Charles speak,
1:50
Speaker 1: you speak to Queen's English.
1:52
Speaker 2: It would be in that context, you and me. The
1:55
Speaker 2: easiest way to do that, whether it's me or art,
1:58
Speaker 2: is just to take out the other the word. So
2:02
Speaker 2: you wouldn't say it's just I. You would say it's
2:05
Speaker 2: just me. So if you're adding somebody else, then you
2:09
Speaker 2: and me. That's the That's I think the simplest way
2:13
Speaker 2: to make sure you nail it every time.
2:16
Speaker 1: Just quickly on that. I read last week why the
2:20
Speaker 1: Americans have changed the English language? And I didn't know
2:23
Speaker 1: the answer, and it's absolutely fascinating to me. First ask you,
2:26
Speaker 1: do you know why? Sorr? I don't know what you mean?
2:29
Speaker 1: What do you mean? Spelling? And so like they don't
2:35
Speaker 1: say Z, they say Z and and they spell color
2:38
Speaker 1: without the you. For example, the nights with with K,
2:42
Speaker 1: I mean that a g uh, they spell what without
2:46
Speaker 1: a night. There's a nighttime in I t E. So
2:51
Speaker 1: there's not h either. But your pardon, no, it's I
2:59
Speaker 1: think it's correct. Did you not know that? No?
3:03
Speaker 2: I mean, I've definitely seen an I T written like that,
3:06
Speaker 2: but I think that's a that is just I don't
3:09
Speaker 2: know if slang is quite the right word for it. Anyway,
3:11
Speaker 2: let's not go down.
3:14
Speaker 1: Well, I'll just tell you quickly, just very very interesting trivia. Yeah,
3:18
Speaker 1: so you've heard of the Webster Dictionary. Yeah, of course, Yeah.
3:22
Speaker 1: It was because of him. He decided that he wanted
3:26
Speaker 1: to create a variation of English to show that this
3:31
Speaker 1: new country was a breakaway from the British Empire. Okay,
3:36
Speaker 1: how's that?
3:38
Speaker 2: Well, that's I think in some ways that's quite appropriate
3:42
Speaker 2: if it really is distinctly different. I remember, if you know,
3:48
Speaker 2: I remember a discussion in actually totally unrelated subject a
3:52
Speaker 2: class at school in which somebody who was teaching me
4:00
Speaker 2: at that point said that the and I know you
4:04
Speaker 2: can't really be generic about this, but he said that
4:06
Speaker 2: what he suggested that the modern day American accent is
4:11
Speaker 2: similar to how the how people would have how people
4:16
Speaker 2: would have been speaking in England several hundred years prior.
4:21
Speaker 1: Now.
4:21
Speaker 2: I don't know how one ever knows that that could
4:26
Speaker 2: be the case or not, but I just thought it was.
4:29
Speaker 2: It was an interesting one because we have we really
4:32
Speaker 2: have no idea. And even now you listen to if
4:34
Speaker 2: you watch in fact, especially people speaking English and you're
4:39
Speaker 2: part of the world, it's also barsardized.
4:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'diz well, no, no, it is.
4:45
Speaker 2: But know what I was going to say was, if
4:46
Speaker 2: you look back at any recorded footage of somebody from
4:51
Speaker 2: southern I would say Southern Africa. Not I don't just
4:54
Speaker 2: mean South Africa, but say from Rhodesia or wherever, from
4:59
Speaker 2: sixty seventy years ago, that the way they speak English
5:02
Speaker 2: is completely different from how people speak now. And you
5:06
Speaker 2: see that all the way. You know, the whole of
5:08
Speaker 2: the English speaking world that would have said, has you know,
5:11
Speaker 2: undergoes constant transformation in terms of intonation. I mean some
5:16
Speaker 2: of it, and you know what the drivers for that
5:20
Speaker 2: are are fascinating. Obviously a lot of it comes from
5:24
Speaker 2: what's described as popular culture, and some of it doesn't.
5:28
Speaker 1: Some of it I don't. I don't know.
5:30
Speaker 2: I don't know why people do move change in the
5:33
Speaker 2: way they speak languages. But it is a fascinating Well, okay,
5:37
Speaker 2: well that's gone, yeah, go on, go on.
5:42
Speaker 1: The spending of night. It is, it's considered, it's recognized
5:46
Speaker 1: in American English, but it is not considered standard. So
5:48
Speaker 1: I beg your pardon.
5:49
Speaker 2: You are in that one, Okay, Well, well, I mean
5:53
Speaker 2: it's certainly not a competition, but yeah, it's it is
5:57
Speaker 2: very coose.
5:58
Speaker 1: Sorry.
5:58
Speaker 2: What I was wanting to interrupt with, just only because
6:01
Speaker 2: I don't want to forget it, is that there is
6:04
Speaker 2: a to my mind, and I don't want to spoil it,
6:07
Speaker 2: very very funny video of a I think really it was.
6:11
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was a whole play, but
6:13
Speaker 2: it's it's been cut into a short I don't know
6:18
Speaker 2: what is. It's sort of four minute video of all
6:21
Speaker 2: those sorts of transitions that you're talking about, of how
6:24
Speaker 2: America was going to choose to be different in using
6:29
Speaker 2: in using a sort of hybrid of some imperial measurements
6:33
Speaker 2: but some metric and anyway, I will what I will
6:36
Speaker 2: do is when this goes out, I'll put the link
6:39
Speaker 2: to the video in the in the notes, because it's
6:42
Speaker 2: it's highly highly amusing, it's very funny, but it just
6:45
Speaker 2: does very well of you know what we're talking about,
6:48
Speaker 2: exactly the same things, but they're different, and I think
6:53
Speaker 2: that is I have no issue with that at all.
6:56
Speaker 1: I really don't.
6:57
Speaker 2: I mean America is a very very long way from
7:01
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom, and and of course it's closer, far
7:05
Speaker 2: closer today than it was at that time. So I've
7:08
Speaker 2: got no dramas with with different spellings. And also the
7:13
Speaker 2: whole idea, I know, all the sort of academic for
7:16
Speaker 2: all that's been going on over the this chap Jason R.
7:20
Speaker 2: Day in the UK and the problems that people have
7:24
Speaker 2: at academia. I know this is a controversial thing to
7:27
Speaker 2: be saying, but the whole idea of.
7:29
Speaker 1: Selling your controversier Charles, No.
7:32
Speaker 2: No, we don't do that's right. But but the spelling
7:36
Speaker 2: is a you know, it's a funny one. I totally,
7:40
Speaker 2: I absolutely would follow the sort of protocol that spelling
7:46
Speaker 2: matters because it avoids confusion. So for example, the you know,
7:50
Speaker 2: mistaking desert for dessert is easily done if you spell
7:55
Speaker 2: one differently, you know that there's obvious confusion there. But otherwise, guy,
8:00
Speaker 2: the idea of spelling being an exact science is curious
8:05
Speaker 2: because of course we all speak differently, so a word
8:09
Speaker 2: that I would pronounce in a certain way will sound
8:13
Speaker 2: different to exactly the same word that you might say,
8:16
Speaker 2: And therefore spelling is a funny one in the way
8:19
Speaker 2: that it actually represents a whole raft of different sounds,
8:25
Speaker 2: when it's when the whole point of it was that
8:28
Speaker 2: it was meant to be in the first slance, it
8:29
Speaker 2: was meant to be a transliteration. It was meant to
8:31
Speaker 2: be a way of creating those sounds. Now that's not
8:37
Speaker 2: really what it does now. I think what you're talking
8:39
Speaker 2: about is that the well Webster so sorry, was Webster American. Yes,
8:46
Speaker 2: so here's what we mean.
8:47
Speaker 1: So his goal was to try and change the English
8:52
Speaker 1: language a little bit so that it wasn't completely reliant
8:55
Speaker 1: on the British way of speaking. They just wanted to
8:58
Speaker 1: They just wanted to have some distinguishable differences. But you
9:03
Speaker 1: didn't need to do that by design. South African English,
9:06
Speaker 1: for example, was never there was never an attempt to
9:09
Speaker 1: change the way we speak. It just happened organically. And
9:12
Speaker 1: I think because of the Afrikaners and the Burs and
9:15
Speaker 1: then you know all the other Europeans that were year.
9:17
Speaker 1: I know that I sound silly when I speak English,
9:21
Speaker 1: and I love the British, the actual British English. I
9:23
Speaker 1: think that's the most beautiful sounding way of speaking English.
9:28
Speaker 1: But I can't change the way I speak.
9:31
Speaker 2: It just is, and we don't know, should you I
9:34
Speaker 2: don't think, I don't well, I certainly don't think you said,
9:37
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think South Africans. I don't
9:39
Speaker 2: think anyone sounds silly speaking English.
9:43
Speaker 1: But there are no but there are, there are the
9:45
Speaker 1: ways in which we speak. So, for example, the South
9:51
Speaker 1: African English is more gutural than the British English English
9:54
Speaker 1: because of Africans and we and as a result, we've
9:57
Speaker 1: also abandoned many words in English and we've completely swapped
10:02
Speaker 1: them out for Afrikaans. Words like barbecue. We don't that's
10:05
Speaker 1: not part of our lexicon. We simply don't use the
10:08
Speaker 1: word barbecue. So I have to constantly think about what
10:11
Speaker 1: the English version of their word is. If I'm if
10:14
Speaker 1: I'm discussing a barbecue, as you know, we say the
10:17
Speaker 1: word bry.
10:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but that but I think that completely makes
10:21
Speaker 2: sense and in fact English, I mean, the reason one
10:24
Speaker 2: of the reasons English, the English language has so many
10:27
Speaker 2: more words in it than any other, is because it
10:29
Speaker 2: is inquisitive.
10:30
Speaker 1: I don't think that.
10:33
Speaker 2: I'm on thin ice, but I don't imagine that barbecue
10:36
Speaker 2: is a is originally an English word, a lot of English,
10:41
Speaker 2: That's what I mean. There's so so many are pulling
10:44
Speaker 2: from elsewhere, or that a nice wrench and whatever else. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah,
10:49
Speaker 2: But I mean and then and then from certainly from
10:51
Speaker 2: the colonial period or the period of expansionism or you know, explore,
10:57
Speaker 2: exploration or whatever. An awful lot of words come in
11:00
Speaker 2: from from all parts of the world and just assumed
11:04
Speaker 2: to be English.
11:05
Speaker 1: But they're not to talk about this. I could talk
11:09
Speaker 1: about this for hours. I find it absolutely fascinating, so
11:12
Speaker 1: do I. I One of the things that I would
11:15
Speaker 1: love to know is the origins of not the origins,
11:18
Speaker 1: but the evolution of accents and how that occurs even
11:21
Speaker 1: in a small, a small geographical region like England. I
11:25
Speaker 1: mean England fits into a tiny part of South Africa,
11:28
Speaker 1: and you have this diverse array of accents. I think
11:32
Speaker 1: even within even within London, I would I would imagine
11:35
Speaker 1: you have different accents and I wish I understood what's that?
11:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, totally correct. But I mean this is the
11:42
Speaker 2: thing that the tragedy is that there is a sort
11:47
Speaker 2: of bleeding into or homogenization of of all these languages.
11:52
Speaker 2: They were, they were really distinct and yes, completely London. Well,
11:56
Speaker 2: I mean that was the whole point of of Pygmalion,
12:02
Speaker 2: or you know what was turned into My Fair Lady
12:03
Speaker 2: was how was how you could pinpoint somebody to a
12:06
Speaker 2: very very small geographic.
12:09
Speaker 1: And then there's class based, doesn't it?
12:11
Speaker 2: Well yes, I mean not yes, sort of yes and no,
12:13
Speaker 2: but but yeah, in that instance, yes, and and that
12:17
Speaker 2: could be said across that all the regions as well.
12:19
Speaker 2: You know, just which side of a particular river that
12:21
Speaker 2: somebody lives, they would there would be slightly different words
12:26
Speaker 2: or a very slight different sort of intonation.
12:28
Speaker 1: But yeah, I know the I don't I don't know
12:31
Speaker 1: if it I don't.
12:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, whether the situation in the United Kingdom is vastly
12:38
Speaker 2: different from say France, I don't know, because again this
12:42
Speaker 2: is where the Brits are terrible, terrible ability for speaking
12:47
Speaker 2: other languages. I think most people go into France, you know,
12:51
Speaker 2: it's just all they all speak for him and you
12:53
Speaker 2: don't understand what they say anyway. So to be able
12:56
Speaker 2: to distinguish between the type of French that's spoken in
12:58
Speaker 2: the North versus the South, or in Paris, or in
13:01
Speaker 2: the regions, I think the majority of people wouldn't be
13:04
Speaker 2: able to do. But if you ask the French, they
13:06
Speaker 2: will absolutely be able to say that people speak very,
13:08
Speaker 2: very different, but in terms of the language they use,
13:13
Speaker 2: the words they use, but also their accent. So but
13:15
Speaker 2: I don't know, yes, I mean, obviously we're a small
13:17
Speaker 2: land mass. Perhaps we do have greater distinctions and differences.
13:22
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure. I rather suspect it's possible because
13:27
Speaker 2: a lot of it. If you look at a map
13:31
Speaker 2: of the British Isles and you look at where the
13:33
Speaker 2: ports are, this is not only the case, but the
13:37
Speaker 2: port cities, port towns were obvious places that language would
13:43
Speaker 2: be disrupted because of the trade that was done with
13:46
Speaker 2: people you know elsewhere, either incoming or outgoing. And so
13:53
Speaker 2: that sort of explains quite a bit of it, but
13:54
Speaker 2: certainly not the not the more rural sort of inland part.
13:58
Speaker 2: But yeah, I know, I mean, gosh, we could we
14:00
Speaker 2: could go on for hours. There's some very good books.
14:03
Speaker 2: I'm read any of them for a while. But Michael
14:06
Speaker 2: Frayne's book, the title of which I forget is good.
14:10
Speaker 2: Bill Bright actually Bill Bryson's book on that grade. Yeah,
14:15
Speaker 2: his his, But no, I don't mean his travels his
14:18
Speaker 2: his book about the English language mother tongue and the
14:23
Speaker 2: sort of where it comes from, and that's it is.
14:25
Speaker 2: It's a totally fascinating study just any languages, and English
14:29
Speaker 2: in particular, and the the proto Indo European languages, and
14:36
Speaker 2: there's a there's a hell of a lot there and
14:38
Speaker 2: and how that fits into who we are and where
14:41
Speaker 2: we are and where we've come from and all the
14:43
Speaker 2: all the other bizarre mysteries out there.
14:46
Speaker 1: Well, Charles, I'm going to practice my Queen's English or
14:49
Speaker 1: can you still say that? All? Should I say King's English?
14:52
Speaker 1: These days?
14:52
Speaker 2: I don't know what what the Greek protocol is. Well,
14:54
Speaker 2: I suppose you should. I'm not sure that he can
14:56
Speaker 2: really claim it as his own, but all right, a
15:00
Speaker 2: I go, I'll say Queens English. I'm gonna practice my
15:02
Speaker 2: Queens English. I'm going to practice my Queens English. Why
15:05
Speaker 2: because I'm going to be on your side of the
15:07
Speaker 2: world in the middle of September.
15:11
Speaker 1: Yes you are. I'm coming to the twentieth anniversary event
15:15
Speaker 1: and we are very excited about that. What about the event?
15:18
Speaker 1: As am I the whole thing?
15:19
Speaker 2: But definitely having you over here is going to be
15:21
Speaker 2: absolutely tip top yeah, your first time, I think, is
15:25
Speaker 2: that right?
15:26
Speaker 1: It's my first time, my first time to the UK,
15:28
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna have to come back with my family,
15:31
Speaker 1: So this time will be a little bit truncated because
15:34
Speaker 1: at the same time my second child is being born. Yeah,
15:40
Speaker 1: these things, Yeah, it's a bit of an it's a
15:43
Speaker 1: bit of an yeah.
15:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, but what a time. And I think you've
15:50
Speaker 2: got what have you got a couple of days either side,
15:54
Speaker 2: so yes.
15:54
Speaker 1: Not not much. I'm basically going to be spending most
15:58
Speaker 1: of my time in Plymouth and then in London.
16:02
Speaker 2: Well I think as if you are going to dip
16:05
Speaker 2: your toe for a brief moment, then well certainly you
16:09
Speaker 2: couldn't do any better than coming to a UK column event.
16:11
Speaker 2: But to see yeah, I see London a little bit,
16:15
Speaker 2: and Plymouth and that part of the coast and the
16:19
Speaker 2: sort of the splendor of Plymouth's history and the views
16:25
Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing. I know, it's an
16:27
Speaker 2: absolutely great start. And actually with your yes, I think
16:33
Speaker 2: with your coastal eye it is obviously it's very different.
16:36
Speaker 2: But I think you'll see the viewer, particularly from the
16:42
Speaker 2: hoe up at the top of Plymouth looking out of
16:44
Speaker 2: the sound. I think you'll get a little bit of
16:48
Speaker 2: a sense of home from that. It's it's well, completely
16:52
Speaker 2: spend it on a smaller scale, but it's it is lovely.
16:56
Speaker 1: So I am looking forward to very much. And the
17:00
Speaker 1: last time I was overseas well, the last few times
17:02
Speaker 1: i've been overseas, I've been in countries where English is
17:05
Speaker 1: not the first language. We were in My wife and
17:08
Speaker 1: I were in France a few years ago and we
17:10
Speaker 1: were advice. I don't know if this is just a
17:13
Speaker 1: a wive's tale or not, but the whole thing about
17:16
Speaker 1: speaking to people first in English or in or an
17:21
Speaker 1: attempt at French there determines the way in which you're
17:25
Speaker 1: going to get a response. So we so we spoke
17:29
Speaker 1: to people in Afrigance and then they would they would
17:32
Speaker 1: respond by going sorry, no, no, I English. So that
17:42
Speaker 1: was our strategy. That's probably yeah. And obviously I was
17:46
Speaker 1: in China and that I don't understand side to use
17:49
Speaker 1: Google tran state uh. And then I was also in Amsterdam.
17:52
Speaker 1: But that's interesting that I can kind of pick up
17:56
Speaker 1: what they're saying, can you okay? That is interesting?
18:00
Speaker 2: I don't really and and the other way around, are
18:03
Speaker 2: you understood.
18:04
Speaker 1: They can well, it's funny. So speaking of class structure
18:08
Speaker 1: earlier with languages the Dutch Sea Afrikaans as like a peasant,
18:13
Speaker 1: a peasant variation of Dutch. We we use, we use
18:17
Speaker 1: the kitchen, the kitchen Dutch as it were. Yeah, despite
18:22
Speaker 1: the fact that it's a completely evolved language. Yeah. But
18:27
Speaker 1: but yes, my wife, my wife understands Dutch a lot
18:31
Speaker 1: better than I do. I have to, I have to
18:34
Speaker 1: slow everything down in my head so that I can
18:36
Speaker 1: so that I can follow. But she, she can follow
18:40
Speaker 1: to a large degree. But it's not it's the language
18:43
Speaker 1: is quite separate. They're not the same anymore. Mm hmm.
18:49
Speaker 2: Okay, well anyway, so, yeah, you'll have lots to lots
18:53
Speaker 2: to observe, lots to think about, especially coming from where
18:56
Speaker 2: you do. Just see the you know, the of terrific
19:00
Speaker 2: differences between our two countries, not just the way they
19:04
Speaker 2: but and I need to come in there and all
19:07
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.
19:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I need to I need to come and
19:09
Speaker 1: see my colonial masters. Yeah. Well that's not quite how
19:13
Speaker 1: I was going to put it. But but.
19:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose that there is that element. Yeah, well
19:19
Speaker 2: that this would be I'd be I'd be fascinated and
19:21
Speaker 2: will we will obviously what we will do is we'll
19:24
Speaker 2: record one of these sessions, at least one of these
19:26
Speaker 2: sessions whilst you're with us, and I think that will
19:29
Speaker 2: be completely fascinating just to get your your your hot
19:32
Speaker 2: take on how you see things, how you see relationships
19:36
Speaker 2: between people and all that mean. You you've talked about
19:39
Speaker 2: sort of class, the idea of class and what that
19:45
Speaker 2: means either historically or to you now, or you know,
19:49
Speaker 2: how your society functions, where the sort of where the
19:52
Speaker 2: divides or the breaks are, if if there are perceived
19:55
Speaker 2: to be any you know, and how you'll how you'll
19:58
Speaker 2: perceive that in the United Kingdom today, because that is,
20:02
Speaker 2: you know, that is something that's still it gets spoken
20:06
Speaker 2: about a lot as though sort of as though it
20:07
Speaker 2: is a divisive issue. But I would say it's much
20:09
Speaker 2: much harder to pin down. No, No, I would actually
20:11
Speaker 2: know what it means. I wouldn't say it's divisive. It
20:13
Speaker 2: I mean it's part of human history. It is what
20:16
Speaker 2: it is, you know, and you see it everywhere across
20:18
Speaker 2: the world. But there is a kind of forced segue,
20:22
Speaker 2: which is immigration. And I want to just also just
20:24
Speaker 2: chat a bit about that, you know, I won't say
20:28
Speaker 2: that colonialism is immigration. It's obviously different.
20:35
Speaker 1: But there is an immigration issue that's happening on your
20:37
Speaker 1: side of the world, and in fact on our side too.
20:40
Speaker 1: I mean, I would argue every way. Actually, I mean,
20:42
Speaker 1: we've had huge protests recently, and I won't I won't
20:47
Speaker 1: very quickly say that they were organic. I think there's
20:49
Speaker 1: a lot of foreign interest in creating disruption and chaos
20:54
Speaker 1: because immigrants are not necessarily the problem. It's the policy structure,
21:01
Speaker 1: the frameworks that seem to be the problem. Look at China, Charles,
21:05
Speaker 1: they don't have an immigration a mess immigration problem. Why
21:08
Speaker 1: because they've got a framework in place that is that
21:10
Speaker 1: is quite pretictive of their borders. Europe, on the other hand, doesn't. Yeah,
21:17
Speaker 1: that's true.
21:18
Speaker 2: I think I think we can't disregard the context that
21:22
Speaker 2: the history and and in fact, I would say that
21:28
Speaker 2: we do have to go back to the colonial period
21:31
Speaker 2: because in actual fact, the way in which people were
21:36
Speaker 2: moved I mean, Cray, we're going back to I would say,
21:42
Speaker 2: even Egyptian, you know, back to the sort of dominance
21:47
Speaker 2: of Egypt or especially Greek and Roman times. The movement
21:53
Speaker 2: of people, the movement of labor has always been a
21:59
Speaker 2: sort of colonial policy more than a policy. I mean,
22:03
Speaker 2: it's actually driven the ability to be able to do this.
22:07
Speaker 2: Look at Africa as a prime example. The railways were
22:13
Speaker 2: the product of imported labor from South Asia. So it
22:19
Speaker 2: has it's been part and parcel of the economic development
22:27
Speaker 2: supposedly for certainly all of our recent history. But I
22:33
Speaker 2: think it's what's changed and why and what the intent
22:41
Speaker 2: is because there are still you know, there certainly are
22:45
Speaker 2: still places where there are movements of people towards labor
22:50
Speaker 2: in much the way that there has been, but I
22:53
Speaker 2: would say that those instances are not the norm anymore.
23:00
Speaker 2: And looking at Europe in particular, the pendulum has completely
23:06
Speaker 2: swung the other way. It's very hard to get sufficient
23:11
Speaker 2: detail on this, but a lot of a lot of
23:15
Speaker 2: certainly a lot of migration has changed drastically. And that
23:19
Speaker 2: because people are not necessarily moving specifically for economic reasons.
23:23
Speaker 2: That the idea that there is a massive uptick in
23:26
Speaker 2: irregular migration, so people who are coming either to claim
23:31
Speaker 2: asylum or to be in a particular country, but under
23:35
Speaker 2: the radar, that that again is a is a massively
23:38
Speaker 2: changing picture. But I don't but I don't think we
23:40
Speaker 2: can look at that separately from what I've just been
23:42
Speaker 2: talking about.
23:43
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm what I'm kind of alluding to is
23:45
Speaker 1: if we talk about mess immigration in Europe in ours circles.
23:50
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but almost always there will
23:53
Speaker 1: be the it's the Muslims. Now, I'm I'm not a Muslim,
23:57
Speaker 1: and and I have no interest in becoming Muslim, But
24:00
Speaker 1: I don't have a dog in this fight. What I
24:02
Speaker 1: am thinking about you is blaming Muslims seems to be
24:06
Speaker 1: a little bit of a distraction because if if there
24:10
Speaker 1: was tighter border control or tights of foreign not foreign policy,
24:15
Speaker 1: but immigration policy across the European region, you wouldn't find this,
24:20
Speaker 1: would you. Otherwise you could say the same thing about
24:23
Speaker 1: people going into China, which is not happening. Well, hang on,
24:28
Speaker 1: what do you mean? Do you mean that you wouldn't
24:31
Speaker 1: what happens is that? So what I'm saying is that
24:33
Speaker 1: when people go it's the Muslims, they completely ignore the
24:35
Speaker 1: geopolitical agenda.
24:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that actually a lot more
24:43
Speaker 2: than that is ignored. And I think one of the things,
24:47
Speaker 2: speaking specifically about the United Kingdom, Yes, of course, it's
24:50
Speaker 2: observable and it is it can be clearly evidenced in
24:55
Speaker 2: statistics that the population of people from different parts of
24:59
Speaker 2: the world has has changed pretty drastically.
25:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, yeah, sorry for sorry for jumping,
25:03
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah. It says nineteen percent of the UK's
25:06
Speaker 1: population was foreign born by June twenty twenty four, which
25:10
Speaker 1: is up sixteen percent. And so and this says, you're
25:14
Speaker 1: as of twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, around eleven
25:18
Speaker 1: million people living in the UK were born abroad. That's
25:21
Speaker 1: a lot of people. It is. It is absolutely hack
25:24
Speaker 1: for lot.
25:24
Speaker 2: So I don't I'm absolutely not seeking to downplay that
25:26
Speaker 2: at all, but I think I think there's just you know,
25:30
Speaker 2: there is there's rather more to it, and I think
25:33
Speaker 2: it's a lot of the concern around it is amplified
25:43
Speaker 2: in a way that is frankly unhelpful, and I think it, well,
25:48
Speaker 2: that's what I points via sort of cherry picking, because
25:52
Speaker 2: just you know, let's say, statistically, if you do look
25:55
Speaker 2: at those statistics and you look at the massive spikes
25:58
Speaker 2: let's say from Ukraine and Hong Kong, why does nobody
26:03
Speaker 2: really have any concern about that those numbers of people
26:07
Speaker 2: are are vast too. You know, potentially there's a there's
26:12
Speaker 2: a huge effect to be felt there because they are
26:16
Speaker 2: either that they're you know, they're doing one of two things.
26:18
Speaker 2: Either those people will be to use the sort of
26:22
Speaker 2: the wearied phrase, you know, they will be taking our jobs,
26:26
Speaker 2: or they will be feeding off the state i e.
26:32
Speaker 2: They will be paid for by taxpayers money. Now that
26:35
Speaker 2: that is, that is the charge that is mostly leveled
26:40
Speaker 2: at the irregular migrants. Now totally well founded concern. You
26:46
Speaker 2: you know, it can't be ignored that there are significant
26:50
Speaker 2: numbers of people coming in, largely across the channel in boats,
26:54
Speaker 2: and the concern, the concern is manifold, not least because
26:59
Speaker 2: a lot of these people, I'm very hybersentage to them
27:01
Speaker 2: are young men, and there's concern about that. And there
27:05
Speaker 2: have been enough sufficient number of incidents for people to
27:08
Speaker 2: have heightened concerned about the way in which these people
27:13
Speaker 2: are sort of absorbed by society in fact. And then
27:16
Speaker 2: you know, the honest point is that, well, they're not absorbed,
27:19
Speaker 2: they're they're sort of kettled or contained in places that
27:22
Speaker 2: they really shouldn't be. So the whole situation is managed
27:25
Speaker 2: very poorly. Now, why why does that happen, and why
27:29
Speaker 2: is it allowed to continue to happen. And this is
27:33
Speaker 2: why I do prefix this with the colonial piece about
27:38
Speaker 2: moving labor, because that has absolutely turned full circle into
27:43
Speaker 2: an awful lot of these places that became former colonies
27:49
Speaker 2: and have then become sort of, you know, places that
27:54
Speaker 2: are scrapped over. If you look at where people have
27:57
Speaker 2: come from West Asia or North East Africa, these are
28:03
Speaker 2: all war torn regions and they are absolutely places that
28:07
Speaker 2: we have created the war torn nature, either directly or indirectly.
28:15
Speaker 2: I think in most cases directly. So it's no great
28:18
Speaker 2: surprise that if you then set the conditions in the
28:21
Speaker 2: home country that are favorable to these people coming in,
28:24
Speaker 2: by which they know that they will be looked after,
28:27
Speaker 2: that the state will take care of them, and that
28:32
Speaker 2: all they have to do is arrive, then it's not
28:35
Speaker 2: difficult to see how that word gets back and then
28:37
Speaker 2: in effect a sort of trade route is established where
28:40
Speaker 2: people are able to travel. And I'm not you know,
28:43
Speaker 2: I think I think we have to be very careful
28:45
Speaker 2: to consider exactly who these people are. It's very easy
28:49
Speaker 2: to create short sort of video clips of young men
28:55
Speaker 2: in such a way that they look menacing, they look
28:57
Speaker 2: like they're going to cause trouble. You look at what's
28:59
Speaker 2: happening in Northwest Africa recently. It's very easy to make
29:04
Speaker 2: that look like a massive problem and that the people
29:08
Speaker 2: that are doing it are the problem. When an actual
29:11
Speaker 2: rage debate. Oh yeah, it completely is. It absolutely is.
29:17
Speaker 2: But I think the way I look at it from
29:21
Speaker 2: the United Kingdoms point of view is that this is
29:25
Speaker 2: all part of a bigger, a bigger problem, because it's
29:29
Speaker 2: not just it is not just irregular migrants who are
29:34
Speaker 2: taking advantage of the system. And I've made this point
29:36
Speaker 2: before and it is easy to be sort of misconstrued,
29:40
Speaker 2: but the bigger welfare state absolutely does this for people
29:45
Speaker 2: who are native British as well. People are in a
29:51
Speaker 2: lot of cases they're presented with the choice as to
29:53
Speaker 2: whether they would like to work for a living or not,
29:58
Speaker 2: and those that don't are paid for by those that
30:02
Speaker 2: do so the sense of sort of unfairness and menace
30:07
Speaker 2: and whatnot, it is not presenting an honest picture to
30:12
Speaker 2: say that, you know the problem is these migrants, irregular
30:16
Speaker 2: migrants who are coming in from elsewhere. That is absolutely
30:19
Speaker 2: not the only problem, and numerically it just doesn't stack up.
30:23
Speaker 2: It cannot be the problem.
30:26
Speaker 1: And further, the.
30:27
Speaker 2: Idea that in amongst all of these people, and okay,
30:31
Speaker 2: I don't want to confuse by talking about people who
30:34
Speaker 2: are now not irregular migrants, but the idea that sort
30:37
Speaker 2: of that Islam again is the problem.
30:42
Speaker 1: I think.
30:42
Speaker 2: Part of my issue with that is that statistically, I
30:45
Speaker 2: just I don't really I don't understand why that is
30:48
Speaker 2: seved to be the problem. There are, of course, there
30:51
Speaker 2: are concentrations. There are absolutely concentrations in particular places. This
30:56
Speaker 2: is and this is where it should not have been
30:59
Speaker 2: allowed to have happened, I think, But there are concentrations
31:02
Speaker 2: of Muslim populations where, yes, indeed to live the way
31:09
Speaker 2: to live a life in the way that you would
31:12
Speaker 2: have been accustomed for years and years and years is
31:16
Speaker 2: obviously and I absolutely don't dismiss.
31:17
Speaker 1: That obviously is a problem to us. If it is
31:20
Speaker 1: not part of the organic nature of that area, that
31:25
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody can claiin that. Otherwise, you what
31:27
Speaker 1: you're doing is you're changing, You're changing something that has
31:30
Speaker 1: been around. I get that, but.
31:34
Speaker 2: Just to finish it, can I just finish the point,
31:35
Speaker 2: because because the point is that what I what I
31:38
Speaker 2: do take issue with is the suggestion that just because
31:42
Speaker 2: there is a different cultural influence, or there there is
31:47
Speaker 2: a different culture in existence, that that de facto threatens
31:53
Speaker 2: British culture. I don't see, And this is why it's
31:56
Speaker 2: so interesting to talk to you about it. Any South
31:58
Speaker 2: African city will have a population of Asians, it will
32:02
Speaker 2: have a population of white people, it will have a
32:05
Speaker 2: majority population of black people. Now do black South Africans
32:10
Speaker 2: really feel threatened by the South Asian culture that might
32:15
Speaker 2: be there, or indeed by the white population culture that
32:19
Speaker 2: might be that I that don't think.
32:21
Speaker 1: So, very very good question. So I there have been
32:26
Speaker 1: numerous conversations around that exact question in the pasture. So
32:31
Speaker 1: I would answer that by saying, Charles, no, that nobody
32:36
Speaker 1: is seen as a threat if you are kind of
32:38
Speaker 1: assimilated and you have adopted quote unquote South African culture,
32:43
Speaker 1: whatever that might mean. But I think that threat comes
32:48
Speaker 1: in when you feel that your cultural hegemony is going
32:54
Speaker 1: to become a minority. That's what I think. So in
32:56
Speaker 1: other words, does that make sense?
32:59
Speaker 2: It does, yeah, And I think that's that and that
33:03
Speaker 2: is exactly that that is, that is what is seized
33:08
Speaker 2: upon in the UK. And again this is. I mean,
33:10
Speaker 2: I have to keep saying this because I know how
33:12
Speaker 2: sensitive a subject this is. I'm not I don't dismiss
33:17
Speaker 2: any of what it is that people are concerned about.
33:20
Speaker 2: Where there is magicimate course for concern. So in those
33:22
Speaker 2: places where there are populations for I don't I mean,
33:26
Speaker 2: they don't have to be Muslim, but but perhaps typically
33:29
Speaker 2: they are, or they are from the Horn of Africa.
33:32
Speaker 2: And you know, you will go to an area in
33:35
Speaker 2: a city or a town and there is not there
33:39
Speaker 2: is nothing about that place that seems British anymore. So
33:42
Speaker 2: those people are not doing what you're talking about. They're
33:45
Speaker 2: not coming to a new country and adopting anything from
33:51
Speaker 2: that country. But I think still the question remains, even
33:56
Speaker 2: if there is that concentration, does that part from the
34:01
Speaker 2: displacement that it's already had on that particular locality. Does
34:05
Speaker 2: that actually threaten British culture? You know, why should that
34:10
Speaker 2: stop British people from feeling British if if you're outside
34:15
Speaker 2: of that area. I think that's the that's the bit
34:20
Speaker 2: that people are I would say a bit inconsistent on.
34:26
Speaker 1: But that's interesting because it does kind of point to
34:32
Speaker 1: that question asked you quite quite a long time ago,
34:34
Speaker 1: is what does it mean to be British?
34:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there you go, that this is this is
34:38
Speaker 2: a This is an absolutely great question because I I
34:43
Speaker 2: think nowadays it is a bit more difficult to define that.
34:48
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure how people.
34:51
Speaker 1: Do think of it.
34:52
Speaker 2: I mean, because again, you see it, you see it
34:54
Speaker 2: on social media the entire time. I saw it just
34:57
Speaker 2: a couple of days ago. You know, a map of
35:00
Speaker 2: the number of mosques that are in the UK now
35:04
Speaker 2: as compared with the number of mosques that were in
35:06
Speaker 2: the UK in nineteen fifty. And okay, these maps are
35:09
Speaker 2: always they never really paint the right picture because the
35:14
Speaker 2: just simply the symbol for the mosque is so much
35:16
Speaker 2: bigger than it should be, so it gives the impression
35:19
Speaker 2: they're absolutely everywhere. Again, not to belittle the change there
35:22
Speaker 2: has quite clearly been an absolutely monumental change since nineteen fifty.
35:27
Speaker 2: But the the idea, sorry is that me? The idea
35:32
Speaker 2: that that somehow, sorry, there's a beeping going on.
35:39
Speaker 1: That's fine, I can't do it, okay, good.
35:42
Speaker 2: The idea that that in itself is a threat to
35:49
Speaker 2: I don't know what British, Britishness, or more particularly Christianity
35:55
Speaker 2: is to me nonsensical because if you've got a if
35:59
Speaker 2: you have a bedrock of Britishness or indeed Christianity, and
36:06
Speaker 2: something else comes in alongside that, then why does that
36:11
Speaker 2: Why should that be deemed to be either fundamentally changing
36:16
Speaker 2: the character of whatever already exists or it should be
36:21
Speaker 2: considered to be a threat to it.
36:23
Speaker 1: So again, the.
36:25
Speaker 2: Refrain is always that mosques are taking over churches, as
36:29
Speaker 2: though Muslims somehow are almost turning up to the church
36:35
Speaker 2: and sort of taking it by force or convincing people
36:38
Speaker 2: to forget Christianity or whatever. That is absolutely not a
36:43
Speaker 2: true picture. And I can say that for a fact,
36:47
Speaker 2: having been a church goer my entire life, I have
36:51
Speaker 2: watched church congregations absolutely fall apart. And that is nothing
36:56
Speaker 2: to do with Islam or immigration. That is everything to
37:00
Speaker 2: do with a shift. I'm not going to call it
37:05
Speaker 2: a breakdown, even though that's how I might perceive it,
37:07
Speaker 2: But that is fundamentally a shift in the way in
37:11
Speaker 2: which British families, I would say, have conducted themselves. And
37:16
Speaker 2: this goes alongside a whole load of other stuff. And this,
37:19
Speaker 2: you know, people will make of this what they will
37:21
Speaker 2: but for example, the divorce rate, the teenage pregnancy rate,
37:26
Speaker 2: that all these societal indicators that things are changing. So
37:31
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not necessarily going to say all of
37:33
Speaker 2: this is bad. But when you look at the complete picture,
37:38
Speaker 2: there has been a very very marked shift. Now, when
37:42
Speaker 2: you have such a change and then you say, oh, well,
37:45
Speaker 2: look here there are pockets or concentrations of say Sudanese people,
37:50
Speaker 2: or Somalis or Pakistani Muslims or whatever they are, then yes,
37:56
Speaker 2: I can see how putting those two things alongside each
37:59
Speaker 2: other makes it look like one has caused the other.
38:01
Speaker 2: I don't I'm afraid to say, I don't think that
38:05
Speaker 2: one has caused the other. I think that the watering down,
38:08
Speaker 2: let's say, of Britishness, British culture, society or cohesion has
38:13
Speaker 2: allowed the other one to assume a disproportionate sort of dominance,
38:19
Speaker 2: let's say, or not disproportionate dominance, a dominance that I
38:23
Speaker 2: think would have been absorbed had Britishness British culture been
38:29
Speaker 2: more cohesive over that period of time. That that's that
38:32
Speaker 2: might be a you know, I'm sure that's a that
38:35
Speaker 2: has to necessarily be a simplistic way to look at it,
38:37
Speaker 2: because it's a it's a generalization you'd have to go
38:40
Speaker 2: in order to be to be giving due regard to
38:45
Speaker 2: the places that are of specific concern, you'd have to
38:47
Speaker 2: look at every single one and analyze those factors. But
38:51
Speaker 2: I think bar and large as a as a sort
38:55
Speaker 2: of whole of society peace, that that's what I see
38:57
Speaker 2: look at my my generation and the And again I'm
39:03
Speaker 2: not advocating for saying, you know, oh well people should
39:06
Speaker 2: be doing this, but but two big things. People did
39:09
Speaker 2: not go to church, and people did not join the
39:12
Speaker 2: armed forces in the way that they used to. So
39:14
Speaker 2: this idea that people were sort of absolutely there for
39:20
Speaker 2: queen and country and whatever, I mean, you know, I
39:22
Speaker 2: know that that's sort of that's let's say, out of date,
39:27
Speaker 2: but I mean, there's it cannot be coincidence that that
39:30
Speaker 2: has led into the situation that we're in now. And yes,
39:36
Speaker 2: of course I'm totally accepting that there has been a
39:40
Speaker 2: very sort of well articulated and well driven policy to
39:44
Speaker 2: make all this happen.
39:47
Speaker 1: So going I mean, you raise I think some very
39:50
Speaker 1: very good points. And going back to the comment earlier
39:52
Speaker 1: that I made about people blaming Muslims, as a low
39:56
Speaker 1: hanging fruit. I'll give you a parallel example of where
40:00
Speaker 1: I think that complexity comes in. So here in South Africa,
40:03
Speaker 1: we've got a big issue with rhino horn poaching right
40:08
Speaker 1: and and it really is a big problem. It can
40:10
Speaker 1: it can send the rhinos to extinction because they aren't
40:13
Speaker 1: that many rhino. But there's a black round, a black
40:16
Speaker 1: runds I think it is left and so they have
40:21
Speaker 1: to be looked. They have to be you know, cared
40:23
Speaker 1: for behind fences basically, And it's easy to look at
40:28
Speaker 1: the poachers themselves and just keep blaming them, but they
40:32
Speaker 1: are endless. They're like ants because anybody who's willing to
40:38
Speaker 1: get funded, just about who's in that kind of industry,
40:42
Speaker 1: will take the job as dangerous as what it is.
40:46
Speaker 1: And they are the problem. If you catch a guy
40:49
Speaker 1: who's who's who's you know, torturing a rhino, I mean
40:54
Speaker 1: they are savage, right, they don't kill the rhinos. They
40:57
Speaker 1: it's it's horrible. That is a problem and you need
41:02
Speaker 1: to deal with that guy. But he's not the root
41:03
Speaker 1: of the problem, and he's just the symptom. And that's
41:08
Speaker 1: kind of what I'm what I'm alluding to. So that
41:10
Speaker 1: it's the Muslims narrative is treating a symptom, and you're
41:15
Speaker 1: suggesting that it's a lot more complex than that.
41:19
Speaker 2: I think it is a lot more complex. And I
41:21
Speaker 2: think also the you know, there's this idea of consistency
41:29
Speaker 2: or at least are we being consistent, because the reason
41:33
Speaker 2: that the main reason that that Islam has been a
41:39
Speaker 2: very easy one to demonize is because people have been
41:42
Speaker 2: able to point to the radicalization of that faith or
41:47
Speaker 2: of people who are supposedly of that faith, and how
41:52
Speaker 2: associated with that there have been specific crimes, mostly sexual
42:00
Speaker 2: abuse or sort of honor crimes. It depends who the
42:03
Speaker 2: who the victims have been. But because there are well documented,
42:07
Speaker 2: what well documented instances of horrific crimes having taken place,
42:14
Speaker 2: and the perpetrators have been exclusively gangs of mostly Pakistani Muslims,
42:22
Speaker 2: it's as though that is what they do, That is
42:27
Speaker 2: sort of what they're all about.
42:28
Speaker 1: That is it's sorry, child, but let me just quick
42:32
Speaker 1: the ed towards you're saying. That's like saying, well, majority
42:35
Speaker 1: of the pharmatacts that have been in South Africa are
42:37
Speaker 1: by black people, so they fought black people of the island.
42:41
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there is that. But but and and I
42:44
Speaker 2: think that's a that's a very good point to make.
42:47
Speaker 2: And I think there's a there's basically just a from
42:52
Speaker 2: you know, sadly a lot of people a refusal to
42:55
Speaker 2: accept that if, if, if that sort of behavior is happening,
42:59
Speaker 2: that is that then they are not cleaving to the
43:02
Speaker 2: Islamic faith. There is you know, people say what they
43:04
Speaker 2: like about that, you know, the distortion of some parts
43:08
Speaker 2: of the Quran in order to make it look like
43:10
Speaker 2: all of this is this is what they're supposed to do.
43:12
Speaker 1: That that is, that is not true.
43:14
Speaker 2: But it is absolutely true that there are deliberate efforts
43:19
Speaker 2: to radicalize, to create radical parts of Islam, or at
43:24
Speaker 2: least to change the nature of it in order that
43:27
Speaker 2: people are recruited, in order that that societal disharmony has created.
43:33
Speaker 2: That that is absolutely a thing. But to say that
43:36
Speaker 2: does not mean that that Islam is bad. And again,
43:39
Speaker 2: the thing I would always say is for anyone who
43:42
Speaker 2: doubts me, just go to a majority Muslim country and
43:45
Speaker 2: just see how you get treated.
43:47
Speaker 1: That's the point. And nobody can answer that, No, I know,
43:50
Speaker 1: And and and that is a thing. I mean, if
43:52
Speaker 1: if anyone.
43:54
Speaker 2: You know, if anyone listening now has had sort of
43:56
Speaker 2: a bad experience in a Muslim country, well, okay, that
44:01
Speaker 2: is obviously statistically possible. Bad things happen in all countries,
44:04
Speaker 2: but by and large, the hospitality and kindness offered by
44:12
Speaker 2: Muslim people to anyone else is to my mind quite chamishing.
44:18
Speaker 2: I've been to a lot of those places and it's amazing,
44:21
Speaker 2: but that's part of it. But just on the consistency
44:25
Speaker 2: side of it, why is that one thing seized upon?
44:30
Speaker 2: It is horrific. The idea of sexual abuse, particularly of
44:34
Speaker 2: sort of young girls, absolutely horrific, But why should any
44:38
Speaker 2: other type of crime by any other ethnicity or nationality
44:44
Speaker 2: be ignored. Ukraine, prior to twenty twenty two was regarded
44:49
Speaker 2: as one of the most corrupt countries on earth, and
44:53
Speaker 2: is still one of the most corrupted countries on earth,
44:56
Speaker 2: despite the sort of BBC whitewash. So with an influx
45:02
Speaker 2: of how many hundred thousand Ukrainians, is it really the
45:05
Speaker 2: case that they are all squeaky clean and they've mended
45:10
Speaker 2: their ways and they're just they've adopted the British way
45:13
Speaker 2: of life. No, I don't think that can be the
45:15
Speaker 2: case at all, Do I have statistical evidence to back
45:18
Speaker 2: up the point that I'm in effect trying to make,
45:21
Speaker 2: which is that it's likely that with the influx of
45:24
Speaker 2: Ukrainian people, quite a lot of Ukrainian crime, let's call it,
45:29
Speaker 2: that will have come over with them. But I mean,
45:32
Speaker 2: but that's never looked at. So I do think there
45:36
Speaker 2: is an inconsistency. And what troubles me about that is
45:41
Speaker 2: that it in a way, it absolutely plays into the
45:44
Speaker 2: hands of those who seek to disrupt, because then what
45:50
Speaker 2: do you do. You create these divides, You create the
45:52
Speaker 2: idea that Islam or Muslim people are the enemy, which
45:56
Speaker 2: means that they then realize that their regardless as being
46:01
Speaker 2: othered or their bit they're they're outside, and straight away
46:04
Speaker 2: you've got your friction, you've got your tension, you've got
46:07
Speaker 2: your societal divide. And then and then the whole thing
46:09
Speaker 2: escalates and perpetuates, so you know, it's it's a total gift,
46:15
Speaker 2: which again is not I'm not at all saying that
46:18
Speaker 2: if there is a criminal behavior, if there is behavior
46:22
Speaker 2: that is not appropriate, that it should be tolerated. Of
46:25
Speaker 2: course it shouldn't, but nor should it be from people
46:28
Speaker 2: who are British born and bred. And again, I mean,
46:34
Speaker 2: you know, I know, broken record and all that, but
46:35
Speaker 2: but I okay, it was a short time, but I
46:38
Speaker 2: have spent time policing within a culture that absolutely includes
46:45
Speaker 2: those people we've been talking.
46:46
Speaker 1: About and includes government agent. Yeah, exactly.
46:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, And having seen that at firsthand, I can absolutely
46:53
Speaker 2: say that that born, born and bred Brits are every
46:57
Speaker 2: bit as bad as what it is people are imagining
47:01
Speaker 2: that look that those from elsewhere have been up to.
47:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to point out something. There is a
47:08
Speaker 1: huge disconnect, particularly in the kind of space that we
47:13
Speaker 1: find ourselves in, which is media and alternative independent media
47:17
Speaker 1: is no different in many ways to mainstream media because
47:22
Speaker 1: perceptions are created. Now. I would go as far saying
47:27
Speaker 1: that the average person, Charles is actually a decent person,
47:31
Speaker 1: regardless of being a Jew or a Muslim, or a
47:34
Speaker 1: black or white or Chinese. And I would go as
47:38
Speaker 1: far as saying that everybody can live fine alongside everybody else.
47:45
Speaker 1: The problem, in many ways I have found is when
47:48
Speaker 1: you have a top down imposition of something or other
47:51
Speaker 1: that creates a conflict. And that's what we're seeing with
47:54
Speaker 1: the immigration that is not organic. What's going on in Europe.
47:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Yeah, it's not yeah, yeah, sorry. So the
48:01
Speaker 2: things that I'm saying are not are that, you know,
48:05
Speaker 2: they are beside what it is you're talking about. It,
48:07
Speaker 2: Is it therefore right that such a policy should be pushed,
48:11
Speaker 2: that people should be forced into countries in order to
48:15
Speaker 2: disrupt any sense of homogeneity.
48:18
Speaker 1: No, that is not appropriate.
48:21
Speaker 2: But then this goes you know, this is traced back
48:24
Speaker 2: for hundreds of years and the you know, the person
48:26
Speaker 2: that people always point to is Colergy. Can't remember the
48:29
Speaker 2: second part of his name. Yes, but you know, yeah,
48:33
Speaker 2: well yeah, but you see the but you know, you
48:35
Speaker 2: go back and you look at the context written. The
48:39
Speaker 2: writings that I think are most used, most seized upon
48:41
Speaker 2: them were written in nineteen twenty five, at a time
48:45
Speaker 2: where Europe had been through yet another horrific and protracted war,
48:53
Speaker 2: and the centuries before that within Europe were characterized by
48:58
Speaker 2: the country that the then countries of Europe taking chunks
49:03
Speaker 2: out of each other forever and ever. So his premise was, well,
49:10
Speaker 2: if those countries aren't considered to be so starkly divided
49:15
Speaker 2: on sort of lines of ethnicity or nationality, sort of
49:22
Speaker 2: nationalistic tendencies, let's say, then then warfare would be less prevalent.
49:28
Speaker 2: Now whether that's whether that's right, whether that's wrong, whether
49:32
Speaker 2: that whether that really is exactly what he was thinking,
49:36
Speaker 2: and whether his motivation was as he sort of said,
49:39
Speaker 2: it would be okay, We're never really going to know, perhaps,
49:44
Speaker 2: But the point is that that was the That was
49:48
Speaker 2: the theory, the idea, you know, ironically, that was the
49:51
Speaker 2: theory because of course what was suggesting now is that
49:55
Speaker 2: is that the opposite is true. If you if you
49:58
Speaker 2: do water down in a particular population, than really all
50:01
Speaker 2: you're doing is whilst you might be stopping Belgium from
50:05
Speaker 2: fighting France, you're you're simply moving the conflict to within
50:10
Speaker 2: that that border area. And that is that is what
50:14
Speaker 2: looks like it's going to be happening within the certainly
50:18
Speaker 2: within the United Kingdom. It looks like, I mean, if
50:21
Speaker 2: you want person push towards civil war, if you want
50:23
Speaker 2: to see what Europe could look like in twenty years time,
50:26
Speaker 2: look at South Africa. So I love living here and
50:28
Speaker 2: I would argue, and I have argued, that race relations
50:32
Speaker 2: are by.
50:32
Speaker 1: And large fine. It is what it is. We are.
50:36
Speaker 1: We are a mangel mush, We are a multicultural failure
50:41
Speaker 1: in many ways, right, but we are what we are
50:43
Speaker 1: and a kind of fumbles and bumbles its way along. Now,
50:49
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that every other region of the world
50:53
Speaker 1: should copy and do the same sort of thing, because
50:56
Speaker 1: there is something to be said, Charles about about nation states,
51:01
Speaker 1: and the nation state generally comes from the word nation,
51:04
Speaker 1: and a nation tends to have a very specific kind
51:08
Speaker 1: of meaning, which which doesn't really include people who are
51:12
Speaker 1: outside of that. What's the word I'm looking for, that
51:16
Speaker 1: sort of cultural identity, ethnic identity. There is something about it.
51:19
Speaker 1: It's not a racist thing to say it just I
51:21
Speaker 1: mean the Chinese, I know, but yeah, go on, well
51:25
Speaker 1: I'm going to say the Chinese are mostly Han Chinese.
51:27
Speaker 1: It's a particular kind of homogeneous what's the word I'm
51:35
Speaker 1: struggling with words. Yeah, there's there's a China.
51:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, Well but that's such an interesting point,
51:43
Speaker 2: because yes, it is now. But if you you know,
51:47
Speaker 2: if you read what people have written about China over well,
51:50
Speaker 2: I mean, kaiki over hundreds of years. But China to us,
51:53
Speaker 2: I think from the outside looks like it is exactly
51:56
Speaker 2: what we're you know, what we're sort of ruining has gone,
52:00
Speaker 2: certainly from a lot of Western European countries, which is
52:03
Speaker 2: this idea of a you know, sort of single united
52:08
Speaker 2: Chinese society. But the only reason that's come about is
52:11
Speaker 2: because of the march of the the Mandarin language and
52:18
Speaker 2: Han Chinese people who have, you know, in the words
52:22
Speaker 2: of sort of critics, have effectively ethnically displaced all the
52:28
Speaker 2: others that were there. So it just depends, you know,
52:32
Speaker 2: what do we really mean by by this, And going
52:35
Speaker 2: back to your point about accents, different regional accents in
52:39
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom, you know, it wasn't that long ago
52:41
Speaker 2: before the first thing that mattered beyond family was people
52:45
Speaker 2: in your immediate vicinity if you look, if you you know,
52:48
Speaker 2: you go back far enough, and actually all the warfare
52:52
Speaker 2: was not between Britain and France. It was between the
52:56
Speaker 2: various kingdoms that existed within within what is Great Britain.
53:00
Speaker 2: So it's, you know, we're we're sort of we're always
53:04
Speaker 2: talking about the same thing, but we're just looking at
53:08
Speaker 2: it on different scale as things have evolved over time.
53:12
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I don't I don't know that
53:15
Speaker 2: I necessarily can agree with you in looking at China
53:19
Speaker 2: and seeing that it's it's a model that we should
53:23
Speaker 2: aspire to because I think it's I think it is
53:26
Speaker 2: a reasonable position to take that that has only come
53:28
Speaker 2: about because everything else in China has been has been displaced.
53:34
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, this is really something that I
53:37
Speaker 2: would defer to Carl about, of course I would. But
53:41
Speaker 2: the idea that the idea that that's what everyone in
53:45
Speaker 2: China wanted. I mean, you again to always tricky territory.
53:49
Speaker 2: Just look at Tibet.
53:50
Speaker 1: I mean so yeah, I don't know.
53:54
Speaker 2: I mean again, that's that's not to say I'm I'm
53:58
Speaker 2: advocating for they're being enforced differences. But but I mean
54:07
Speaker 2: it's a it's a complicated picture.
54:09
Speaker 1: But that then what do we have to have one?
54:12
Speaker 1: Because I've thought about this a lot over the years.
54:15
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with multiculturalism or any
54:19
Speaker 1: of those things, right if they're organic. Yeah, if it's forced,
54:27
Speaker 1: or if it's forced or top down imposed or artificial,
54:31
Speaker 1: then there are lots of problems. It's the same thing
54:32
Speaker 1: as somebody telling me who I should be friends with,
54:36
Speaker 1: as opposed to me being friends with somebody just because
54:39
Speaker 1: we get on.
54:40
Speaker 2: Well, yes, yeah, but you see, this is it I mean,
54:44
Speaker 2: I think I think a lot of people would have
54:48
Speaker 2: said of China that it absolutely has been enforced, that
54:52
Speaker 2: that that that apparent emogereneity has been enforced. So I
54:57
Speaker 2: think it's it's difficult to use that as an example.
55:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do, we do.
55:01
Speaker 2: And then again, how does one how does one really
55:05
Speaker 2: ever know? How do you when you when you're looking
55:07
Speaker 2: back beyond sort of lifetime experience, And even if it is,
55:15
Speaker 2: I could I could have a conversation with somebody in
55:19
Speaker 2: the next twenty minutes and say, so, tell me you
55:22
Speaker 2: know in your mind what happened in twenty twenty. Oh,
55:26
Speaker 2: well there was a massive spike in death because there
55:28
Speaker 2: was a new illness, and you know it absolutely ravage
55:31
Speaker 2: the world, and this, that and the other. Well that's
55:33
Speaker 2: that is somebody who thinks they saw that with their
55:35
Speaker 2: own eyes, I would fundamentally.
55:37
Speaker 1: Disagree with it.
55:38
Speaker 2: So when you see that, when you know exactly so,
55:41
Speaker 2: then when you look back, you go you going back
55:44
Speaker 2: through historical records, How on earth do you ever ascribe
55:50
Speaker 2: a credibility to any one theory about anything? You can note,
55:55
Speaker 2: you can observe the changes, but to understand exactly why
56:00
Speaker 2: those changes happened as in you know the twenty twenty thing. Yes,
56:03
Speaker 2: we all saw the spikes in the mortality charts. We
56:08
Speaker 2: just come up with different explanations as to why that
56:10
Speaker 2: was the case. And it's the same thing looking backwards.
56:13
Speaker 2: So you know what I'm saying, I believe to be
56:16
Speaker 2: the case about the movement of hand Chinese as being
56:20
Speaker 2: sort of not organic. Well, I mean I can't say
56:23
Speaker 2: that for sure. So it's it is very problematic. And
56:27
Speaker 2: that's and we apply that absolutely to the current moment
56:31
Speaker 2: where so what are we saying that there is that
56:35
Speaker 2: there is possibly a sort of well coordinated plan by
56:41
Speaker 2: by is well, I don't know. I mean what this
56:45
Speaker 2: sort of the Islamic faith or by Muslims to actually
56:49
Speaker 2: colonize the United Kingdom?
56:52
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that credible? I don't know. I don't know.
56:57
Speaker 1: It could be, but I always look at it from
56:59
Speaker 1: the perspective of if it's organic or artificial. So here
57:03
Speaker 1: where we live, we live on a farm, and they're
57:06
Speaker 1: about fifty homes on this farm, and people choose to
57:10
Speaker 1: come and live here, and as a result, it's organic.
57:14
Speaker 1: Nobody has been put her However, were somebody put you
57:19
Speaker 1: into one of these homes and then came into the
57:22
Speaker 1: community and try to you know, poke and prod and
57:25
Speaker 1: poken prod. That would be different and that would end
57:28
Speaker 1: up causing conflict, and then you have to ask questions
57:31
Speaker 1: what's going on here? And that's the difference between organic
57:35
Speaker 1: and artificial. My best friend for twenty years was Indian
57:40
Speaker 1: now here in South Africa. That matters because we are
57:42
Speaker 1: a very racially aware country because of our history. But
57:47
Speaker 1: the reason why we became best friends is because we
57:49
Speaker 1: got on well with everything, and nobody forced us to
57:53
Speaker 1: be best friends. And so for me, what I'm what
57:58
Speaker 1: I'm saying to you is that I don't mind at
58:02
Speaker 1: all who is around. What I do mind is if
58:06
Speaker 1: there's an agenda going on, and I think and I
58:09
Speaker 1: think what's going on on your side of the world
58:13
Speaker 1: is very agenda driven, because as you pointed out, go
58:15
Speaker 1: to Oman or go to the UAE. We'll go to
58:18
Speaker 1: one of those countries and you'll see it's very peaceful,
58:21
Speaker 1: very safe. My family member was just yet over the
58:23
Speaker 1: weekend and he just got back from om On. He said,
58:26
Speaker 1: it's incredible. Yeah, I would totally agree. Oman.
58:29
Speaker 2: Oman actually is the is the sort of standout example,
58:32
Speaker 2: it's completely extraordinary. But then again you know so, oh well, omar,
58:36
Speaker 2: I mean, in effect, a dictatorship will be the came to.
58:40
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter exactly, but this is the thing I'll say,
58:43
Speaker 1: or does it?
58:44
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, so no, I mean it's it's
58:48
Speaker 2: a it is a terrifically complicated picture. But just going
58:50
Speaker 2: back to your friendship, you see that that is fascinating,
58:53
Speaker 2: But then how how could that friendship be altered if
58:57
Speaker 2: there were then in organic stoking of tensions between communities
59:05
Speaker 2: And then suddenly you find that you are each in
59:09
Speaker 2: you know, you belong to supposedly a group that is
59:13
Speaker 2: meant to be in con forward with another of cod okay,
59:19
Speaker 2: and and everything that came with it.
59:20
Speaker 1: And and I'm not alone. I know that a lot
59:22
Speaker 1: of people can relate to that.
59:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, you see, that's that's fascinating because that's different.
59:30
Speaker 2: I mean that that that is along a sort of
59:34
Speaker 2: belief or humanity line. But but nonetheless it is a
59:38
Speaker 2: it is a difference, it is it is absolutely a break.
59:42
Speaker 2: And yet with whether it's skin color or ethnicity or
59:48
Speaker 2: even language, that's not something that you have a choice over.
59:53
Speaker 2: So it's very much easier to to create those divisions
59:59
Speaker 2: and to do it on a on a sort of
1:00:01
Speaker 2: macro scale. So I think I would just, you know,
1:00:05
Speaker 2: I just have to hope that people that people are
1:00:10
Speaker 2: able to resist the the benefits that are derived from
1:00:17
Speaker 2: divide and rule, because that's what that that. You know,
1:00:20
Speaker 2: we haven't actually talked about that, yes, and I know
1:00:23
Speaker 2: we're winding up, but that is that is basically what
1:00:26
Speaker 2: this is about. So the moment you start to say
1:00:30
Speaker 2: that you know, Islam is the problem with Pakistani Muslims
1:00:34
Speaker 2: are the problem, and you put the whole lot of
1:00:37
Speaker 2: them into that one category, you you are you are
1:00:41
Speaker 2: creating at tension there that is absolutely first of all,
1:00:45
Speaker 2: preventing people from getting on and getting on I don't
1:00:50
Speaker 2: just mean getting on in a in a sort of
1:00:52
Speaker 2: relationship way, but I mean getting on with the business
1:00:54
Speaker 2: of creating a functioning and profitable, sort of booming society.
1:00:58
Speaker 2: You are you're actively frustrating that. But also you are
1:01:01
Speaker 2: creating this enormous chasm which is just manipulated for the
1:01:06
Speaker 2: good of none of those people. And so that's not
1:01:09
Speaker 2: that people have got to see through, which again has
1:01:11
Speaker 2: to be put to one side. I mean again that
1:01:13
Speaker 2: is not to dismiss what has absolutely been observable in
1:01:18
Speaker 2: many parts of the UK, which is where a population
1:01:22
Speaker 2: and non British population has come in and utterly transform
1:01:25
Speaker 2: that area. And like you say, that's not been organic.
1:01:28
Speaker 1: And I'll add to that bus by giving you an
1:01:31
Speaker 1: example from here. So we have a very very big,
1:01:37
Speaker 1: so we say taxi industry, and it's huge because our
1:01:42
Speaker 1: public transport infrastructure is pretty bad, so taking trains and
1:01:46
Speaker 1: buses are generally not very good. So there's a huge
1:01:50
Speaker 1: sort of domestic taxi industry and Uber doesn't fall into
1:01:57
Speaker 1: that category. And most Uber drivers that I've driven with,
1:02:01
Speaker 1: I'm not South African. They are from Lawi or from
1:02:04
Speaker 1: Congo or from a Zimbabwe. And every time I get
1:02:09
Speaker 1: into a conversation with them and I ask them what
1:02:11
Speaker 1: it's like, they say, it's not good. They get targeted.
1:02:14
Speaker 1: They have to they have to remove their phones and
1:02:18
Speaker 1: their devices because the domestic taxi industry drivers see them
1:02:22
Speaker 1: and they know who they are, and so they and
1:02:25
Speaker 1: they target them. When I say target, I mean they
1:02:27
Speaker 1: all they literally will hit them off the road or
1:02:29
Speaker 1: they'll shoot at them or something like that, and it's
1:02:32
Speaker 1: quite dangerous and that is a tension that I believe
1:02:36
Speaker 1: has been created externally. I don't think that's an organic tension.
1:02:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I would agree with you and that, I mean,
1:02:43
Speaker 2: they gave that's absolutely case in point that that is,
1:02:47
Speaker 2: that is frustrating everybody. Really, you know what good comes
1:02:52
Speaker 2: of that?
1:02:54
Speaker 1: No, I was trying to I was trying to think
1:02:57
Speaker 1: of a of a joke to this conversation about me
1:03:01
Speaker 1: coming to the to the UK, and I've got it
1:03:04
Speaker 1: worked out in my head, but I can't quite put
1:03:06
Speaker 1: it into words, but it goes something along these lines.
1:03:08
Speaker 1: So because of the huge South African expat population in
1:03:15
Speaker 1: the UK, I'm trying to help me on this one.
1:03:18
Speaker 1: I'll I'll try and refine it for our next to
1:03:21
Speaker 1: our next banter. But I want to make a joke
1:03:23
Speaker 1: about not really going to the UK, just going to
1:03:27
Speaker 1: another problems of South.
1:03:28
Speaker 2: Africa, Okay, yeah right here, yeah yeah, Okay that that
1:03:33
Speaker 2: night somewhere finishing, Yeah, that will be We'll go to it,
1:03:39
Speaker 2: all right, Charles. I'll catch up with you next week, okay, Bro.
1:03:43
Speaker 1: Thanks Jo