Latest / In the Valley of Giants / The Desire To Live: Understanding And Preventing Suicide | Rabbi Shalom Hammer | ITVOG #41

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The Desire To Live: Understanding And Preventing Suicide | Rabbi Shalom Hammer | ITVOG #41 · In the Valley of Giants

• 0:00
  We wouldn't penalize someone who dies from cancer.
• 0:03
  We wouldn't say it's their fault or they shouldn't have died.
• 0:08
  And someone who today is dealing with mental health issues, it
• 0:12
  really is cancerous. It's something that was
• 0:16
  inflicted upon them either through a trauma or something
• 0:19
  they experienced or biologically that's something that just
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  evolved or was triggered to them.
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  We wouldn't say to them it's your fault for doing so.
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  Kazao, when they we were speaking about someone who takes
• 0:31
  their lives, that being sinful, they're really referring to
• 0:35
  someone who did it, what's called Berat's own.
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  In other words, they wanted to take their lives right Bidat
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  with their own mind intact. They said, I no longer want to
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  be in this world. I choose to leave the world.
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  That's something that is exclusively part of their own
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  namesake. It's something that they decided
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  to do out of their own volition. When someone takes their lives
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  today, we're usually dealing with someone who is suffering
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  from an illness, a mental illness that causes them.
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  The majority of people who die from suicide, they don't want to
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  die, they want to live. But what happens is they forget
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  how to live. They forget why it is
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  worthwhile. Hello everyone.
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  Today we're joined by Rabbi Shalom Hammer.
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  Reba Hammer on Gila's Way is leading the fight against
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  suicide and suicide prevention in the global community.
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  We discussed misconceptions in regards to suicide, to the signs
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  of suicidal tendencies. Thirdly, how we should respond
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  as parents, teachers, students, friends, it doesn't matter who
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  you are. We discussed different angles
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  and trying to help different people that are experiencing
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  those really dark moments. And then lastly, what religion
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  can add to our toolkit in order to help someone that's
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  struggling with suicide. We hope that you are all able to
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  grow and use these really important things that we
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  discussed in this episode. Furthermore, I invite everyone
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  to check out Kilo's Away. The link is posted below in the
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  show notes and see all the wonderful resources that they
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  have available and to seriously considering donating to what
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  they're doing. It doesn't matter if you're Jew
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  or gentile, people struggle with suicide and throw on the front
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  lines trying to prevent it. If you want Rabbi Hammer to come
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  and discuss to your community leaders, to your parents, to
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  your students, he's available for that as well and invite
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  everyone to reach out to them. We hope you learn and grow from
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  this episode. Rabbi Sholam Hammer, thank you
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  so much for joining us on the show today.
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  Thank you for having me, Rabbi Dorfman.
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  Of course, suicide is something that plagues all peoples of all
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  denominations. It is an incredibly important
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  topic. So I'm very pleased that we're
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  able to talk about such an important topic today.
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  The first thing I want to speak to is your passion.
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  You know, every, every person decides what their specialty is
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  going to be for a different reason.
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  I understand that the reason why you became involved in suicide
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  prevention is because of a story that happened within your own
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  life. So if you could open up a little
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  bit to us about that, I think that'd be very enlightening.
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  Sure. So I'll differentiate between
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  two things that you said. One is your passion and one is
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  my personal story. I probably would say that my
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  passion is disseminating, educating, imparting information
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  and hopefully really inspiring people towards something.
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  I've always been the kind of person who, I guess searches for
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  purpose and meaning and how we can affect the world in more of
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  a positive way, or at least certainly the Jewish world that
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  we live in. And tragically, 7 years ago, our
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  daughter, almost seven years ago, our daughter Gila, at the
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  age of 18, died from suicide. And that was something that was
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  completely unfamiliar territory to us, to our family, and
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  something that we never imagined in our wildest dreams.
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  And no one dreams about it, but we never imagined that it would
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  happen. And it took me or it took my
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  life, what I know of it to almost a complete 360 and into a
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  different direction. So what I mean by that is, is
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  that my passion is still there in terms of educating,
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  imparting, disseminating and giving over and hopefully
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  inspiring. But the direction is very
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  different. The direction focuses on, I
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  wouldn't say just mental health awareness and not that that's
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  not sufficient, that is extremely important.
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  But I, we try to focus also largely on suicide education,
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  suicide education, suicide prevention and suicide
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  treatment, which is a very, very unique and potent and important
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  area that's pivotal for where the world is right now.
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  And we predominantly are dealing or take our personal tragedy,
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  our personal loss that haunts me and us consistently every day.
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  And we try to take that loss and that death to some place of
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  preserving life, of inspiring and giving over and imparting
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  for the sake of people to learn. And so that, God forbid, such
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  travesty should really never haunt any other family again.
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  Now, realistically, yeah, yeah. That's that's where I mean,
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  realistically, that unfortunately doesn't happen.
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  There are people who are dealing and struggling and unfortunately
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  there are suicides that still take place.
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  But and as much as possible, the more that we dialogue and speak
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  about it, the greater chances there are that we can lower the
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  numbers. And that's really predominantly
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  what we're involved with in Gila's way.
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  Well, what was your area of expertise before you decided to
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  start Gila's Way or before your daughter committed suicide?
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  So I've always been a I've always been an educator.
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  And by the way, Rabbi, I hope you don't mind.
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  I mentioned this, you mentioned the word commit suicide.
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  It's something that I also educate people all the time.
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  And I it's OK, I did not expect you to know.
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  But we, we try not to use the word commit suicide.
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  We try to use the word died by suicide or even if you say
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  killed themselves or took their lives.
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  And the reason why is because commit.
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  The implications of commit suicide implies that someone
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  committed a crime. So, Rabbi Hammer, I use the term
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  committing suicide. Why is that term inappropriate,
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  and what's a better term that we can use?
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  So generally speaking, when you say or when we use the word
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  commit, commit suicide, it usually has the implication of
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  someone committing a crime. And while it was a term that was
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  past time and it was being used in the past, it no longer is
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  used in modern vernacular today. Today in psychology, the word
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  taking their lives or dying from suicide or even killing
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  themselves is really used as opposed to committing suicide.
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  And the reason why is because they're certain certainly was in
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  yesteryear, the idea or the belief that someone who died
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  from suicide was actually committing a crime.
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  Even Khazal, our rabbis at certain points of history
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  understood it as such or misunderstood it.
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  And what we know today is that people die from suicide because
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  they're suffering and they're dealing with a mental health
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  struggle. That's just like, you know, any
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  other illness as opposed to we don't see it, but it's an
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  illness that they're struggling with.
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  And that's really what prompts Rahmana let's on it prompts them
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  to take their lives. And that's why we try to avoid
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  using the word commit suicide, not to imply that the person who
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  died committed any crime whatsoever.
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  So in modern times, that's. The, if I may allow me to ask
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  humbly, is that not somewhat true, though please correct me
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  if I'm wrong. Being causal, do view it as as
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  an assert, as a violation. It's one that, you know,
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  Ravchter said something and years ago, it must have been
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  about 1516 years ago, and I was present for it and it really
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  affected me. And he said that he met a
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  particular person that survived the Holocaust.
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  And his immediate response with tears in his eyes because the
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  person was no longer religious. As he said, we can't judge.
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  We can't judge. So, so leaving the faith is not
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  positive, right? There are challenges that I will
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  never be able to imagine that a person went through the and if
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  I, if I pretend to, it's all it does.
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  And I would say it's a disgrace to what they went through,
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  right? So it would be disgraceful for
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  me to be like, oh, I would have done better or I can imagine
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  what they would have been through.
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  But is there? Is there not?
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  Is it not OK to still say even though what was done was was
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  wrong, that doesn't mean that we understand their pain, but we
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  can move forward and try to prevent this in the future.
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  Is that not true? Or do you disagree with the
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  assessment that I made? So when we talk about mental
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  illness today, it's a lot more understood, even though it's
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  still complex and it's still difficult to understand.
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  I often call suicidality or even someone who's dealing with
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  depression, anxiety, mental health issues.
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  I often call it cancer of the spirit, and the reason why we
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  struggle with it so much is because it's something that we
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  don't see. We as human beings, certainly in
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  our generation, we like things that are palpable, that are
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  feelable, touchable. And that which we can't touch,
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  which we can't see are things usually that we weigh up as
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  being things that we don't understand.
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  And we know that that's not necessarily true.
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  It's just harder for us to grapple with them.
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  That's why the whole concept of believing in Hashem, believing
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  in a Kurdish Bahu is very difficult, particularly in our
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  generation that subscribes to AI and to, you know, immediate
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  satisfaction and to getting immediate answers and responses
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  to everything that's asked to all query.
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  Where as we know that it's not so simple.
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  Certainly when it comes to complex issues.
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  Cancer of the spirit with regards to mental health is
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  because it's something that you can look at someone and they
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  appear to be fine. They appear to be happy and yet
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  internally they're going through a tremendous struggle.
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  So the reason why I say that is because we wouldn't penalize
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  someone who dies from cancer. We wouldn't say it's their fault
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  or they shouldn't have died. And someone who today is dealing
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  with mental health issues, it really is cancerous.
• 11:09
  It's something that was inflicted upon them either
• 11:13
  through a trauma or something they experienced or biologically
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  that's something that just evolved or was triggered to
• 11:20
  them. So there are, you know, we
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  wouldn't say to them it's your fault for doing so, Khazal, when
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  they were speaking about someone who takes their lives and that,
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  you know, it's that's and that being sinful, they're really
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  referring to someone who did it, what's called Berat's own.
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  In other words, they wanted to take their lives, right, Bidat,
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  with their own mind intact. They said, I no longer want to
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  be in this world. I choose to leave the world.
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  That's something that is exclusively part of their own
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  namesake. It's something that they decided
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  to do out of their own volition. When someone takes their lives
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  today, we're usually dealing with someone who is suffering
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  from an illness, a mental illness that causes them.
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  And I always say this over and over again, the majority of
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  people who die from suicide, they don't want to die, they
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  want to live. But what happens is they forget
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  how to live. They forget why it is worthwhile
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  waiting for another day, why there is something else waiting
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  around the corner which is or could be translated into another
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  opportunity, and they forget about that.
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  They live in the moment, they see the suffering and they just
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  don't know how to relieve themselves and remove themselves
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  from that pit of despair. And that's what causes them to
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  have suicidal thoughts. But they are external issues
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  that are causing them to have that or internal biological, but
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  not something or physiological, but not something where it's a
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  choice that they're making that they want to take their life.
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  And there's a very, very big difference.
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  I remember by the way, there was I once gave a lecture, excuse me
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  to the Roshaya Shiva to all of the heads of the Shivot has
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  there and here in Israel and one of the rabbi's after I spoke one
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  of the Roshaya Shiva, the heads of the Shiva, one of these she
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  votes. He said, you know, I, I, I, I
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  was told we had a student of ours who died from suicide and I
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  was told to get in front of the entire yeshiva by a
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  psychologist. He told me get in front of all
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  the students and tell them anyone who takes their life is
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  like a murderer. And I first of all, I thought it
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  was rather insensitive for him to say this after I just gave my
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  lecture about Gila and it just didn't make sense.
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  It was completely inappropriate. But aside from that, I was
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  saying to him, no, that's wrong, that's not true, That's not the
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  correct approach. And it's actually, it's just not
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  true. And after speaking to him for
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  for a few seconds in front of the other Roshay Shiva, one of
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  the other Roshay Shiva heads of these Shiva, he turned around
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  and he said to this rabbi. He said, I want you to know that
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  you're not understanding what Khazal were saying.
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  Khazal, we're talking about someone who decides Berat's own
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  Bidat with his own knowledge intact, without various
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  circumstances or deterrence that are causing him to think
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  otherwise. He decides besides it with lucid
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  mind that he no longer wants to be in this world.
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  That's what Cazal we're referring to.
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  And he said my son took his life after the army.
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  He died from suicide. And I'm telling you that you're
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  not understanding what's going on here.
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  So we need to put things in the right context.
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  And that's why when someone says the words commit suicide, I have
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  a habit of correcting them, not disrespectfully, but just so
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  that we put things in the proper perspective, which is so
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  important when it comes to the realm of mental health.
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  Yeah. Everything you just said was
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  gold, so I'm just going to pare it back some of it just to make
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  sure that I got it correct, that I appreciated every word of it.
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  Thank you. So, so, so #1 there's a
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  philosophical distinction which is crucial.
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  So the the category of people in which Hazal our sages of less of
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  memory were discussing that a sin was definitely committed.
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  That's someone that philosophically takes their
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  life. They're saying I don't see
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  sufficient meaning in this universe and therefore I do not
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  wish to continue this sort of life and they end it.
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  And that is a tremendous and versus someone who is plagued by
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  mental illness, depression, etc. These are not in your opinion,
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  these are not what Khazal we're speaking about.
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  And that explains the error of this, of this Roshi Shiva and
• 15:46
  this particular setting. I'm so if that's correct, I see
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  you nodding. There's something that I must
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  say and I make this point often. It's incredibly crucial when
• 15:53
  someone has the title of Rabbi. It does not mean that we are all
• 15:56
  knowing. I wish I knew everything, but
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  unfortunately it is not so. And to understand properly what
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  Khazal said, it requires A tremendous amount, hours upon
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  hours of tremendous thought and philosophizing and patience.
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  And that's why we'll have rabbis in separate sections.
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  You know, we have something called the Diane, right, which
• 16:15
  is, which is a judge. I am not a Diane.
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  That's not my specialty. If someone were to ask me a
• 16:20
  question and Diana's a judiciary issue, it would be inappropriate
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  for me. It's not.
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  It's not just that it'd be completely inappropriate for me
• 16:26
  to answer it. So we have to know as rabbis are
• 16:30
  watching this, if you get asked a question in a part of that
• 16:33
  you're not familiar with, just say you don't know.
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  That's totally fine. I think what this rub did was
• 16:38
  actually was was at least he was open to hear that the words grab
• 16:42
  a hammer that you were saying, which is crucial.
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  I think unfortunately rabbits. But in any profession, really,
• 16:47
  we have to know our place, especially when it's something
• 16:49
  as serious as suicide prevention. 100% And Rabbi
• 16:54
  Dorfman, I want to take it even one step further because it's so
• 16:56
  interesting what you bring up. OK, about rabbis knowing their
• 17:00
  place, I would say the inverse is so true as well.
• 17:04
  Rabbis need to know that they're not psychologists and that
• 17:08
  they're not therapists. And it's a very, very different
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  realm. You know, we know tremendous,
• 17:14
  Tommy. They have come in a post Kim OK,
• 17:17
  like a Rev Moshe Feinstein, OK, who would actually seek the
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  guidance and advice of psychiatrists and of
• 17:25
  neurologists and of scientists to understand better how to
• 17:30
  paskin, how to decide Holoca decision making.
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  So, and that takes a certain amount of humility to be able to
• 17:39
  say, hey, I don't know all areas and I need to seek out those
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  areas of expertise or those experts so that I can better
• 17:48
  understand what I need to do. And that's so important because
• 17:51
  that's intellectual honesty. And I remember when I was
• 17:55
  sitting Shiva, OK, a bunch of rob on him of other ramen from
• 18:02
  the Shiva where I once taught. They came to visit, you know,
• 18:05
  they came to be Menachem of all to comfort.
• 18:07
  And they sat and they said, what?
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  What can you tell us? And I said, Trevor, I want you
• 18:12
  to know you're all Tommy, They're coming.
• 18:14
  You're all outstanding scholars. You all give over tremendous
• 18:18
  classes on the Gamaran, the Talmud.
• 18:21
  But make no mistake, you're not psychologists and you're not
• 18:25
  therapists. And if a student walks by you
• 18:29
  and just says in passing, so to speak, nim aslim and I'm done
• 18:34
  with life, I can't stand living anymore.
• 18:37
  I said to them, you better respond not as a therapist, but
• 18:41
  as someone who wants to support and guide and get them to the
• 18:45
  correct address for help. Because we need to know our
• 18:49
  boundaries. And we also need to know that
• 18:51
  we're not capable of responding to everything.
• 18:54
  But we are capable of listening, identifying and getting that
• 18:58
  person to a place because they trust us.
• 19:00
  So we get them to a place that is capable of giving them the
• 19:04
  proper response. I can't resist.
• 19:06
  I have to add two things to that because that was so wonderful.
• 19:08
  Please. In the Gemara, it is common for
• 19:12
  anyone who actually learns the Talmud.
• 19:14
  The Rabbis ask all the time from from Monkham on various
• 19:19
  different experts in various different fields.
• 19:21
  It's part of our tradition to know our place and to ask for
• 19:24
  advice. This number one, number 2 is
• 19:26
  this. I have such AI have some
• 19:28
  fantastic rabaeum Growing up. I still have some fantastic
• 19:32
  rabaeum, but there was 1 moment that was so it so changed my
• 19:37
  life and it relates to this. So I have to say it.
• 19:40
  I remember I was, I was in rabbinical training and I'll
• 19:43
  change some of the details. But so this one of my R.E.M.
• 19:47
  came over to me and said, you know, I'd like you who's
• 19:50
  teaching me a lesson in humility.
• 19:53
  I'd like you to tell me what you would do in the following
• 19:55
  situation. So he said like this.
• 19:58
  He said one year there was a parent that came to him and said
• 20:02
  that you know, I that was the father.
• 20:05
  I have terminal cancer, but I don't want my son to know.
• 20:08
  So I'm going to send my son to Shiva.
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  I don't want you to say anything and I'm just going to pass away
• 20:14
  in the middle of the year. But I want him to have his
• 20:15
  normal of a year possible. So don't tell him anything.
• 20:18
  And then I said, OK, we'll respect your wishes, of course.
• 20:21
  So that's exactly what their ABBA did.
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  And then, you know, the boy went and he had a wonderful year
• 20:24
  until his father passed away and the kid went, you know, in set
• 20:30
  Shiva. And this Rev didn't hear from
• 20:32
  that boy for a while. Years later comes walking into
• 20:36
  the basement, rush to the study hall.
• 20:38
  This boy tattoos and piercings and everything.
• 20:41
  And he came to that rabbi and he said, you know, I just want to
• 20:44
  let you know, I know that you knew that my father was dying
• 20:46
  and I'm not religious because of you.
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  You made a call that was not your call to make.
• 20:52
  And you've hurt me in a way that I'll never be able to forgive
• 20:54
  you for. So this rough looked at me and
• 20:56
  he asked me, you know, what would you do?
• 20:58
  And me being the 23 year old know it all saying, well, I
• 21:01
  would do the exact same thing you did.
• 21:02
  I mean, you followed all the rules.
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  You had a request from the file. I mean, what else would you do?
• 21:06
  He looked at me like dumbstruck because he wanted to such a said
• 21:11
  I should have asked for advice from a mental health
• 21:15
  professional and I didn't. It was a very sensitive
• 21:17
  situation and I just made the call on my own.
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  You know, and and this rough is an incredible sage and and
• 21:24
  obviously went from that experience.
• 21:25
  But yet that's just another example.
• 21:27
  You have to know what's your speciality and being confident
• 21:30
  in that place. And it's OK to be sitting in
• 21:32
  that chair. You have to make difficult calls
• 21:33
  sometimes, but if it's not your place to make that call, hands
• 21:38
  off. Yeah, I always tell in even
• 21:42
  people in our in our staff, OK, in Gila's way, I always say to
• 21:46
  them, look, if you're not sure about something, there's nothing
• 21:51
  wrong with saying I don't know the answer right now or I don't
• 21:54
  have a solution right now. Let me check some things out
• 21:58
  with some people who might have ideas and I'll get back to you.
• 22:01
  Getting back to someone is great.
• 22:03
  It's, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 22:06
  And yeah, yeah. So that's it's a very, very
• 22:09
  important lesson. So I'd like to circle back if
• 22:12
  you're comfortable, when, when your daughter passed away
• 22:14
  leading up to that, did you see any signs Because you said that,
• 22:18
  that I, I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth.
• 22:20
  You already were familiar with mental health beforehand.
• 22:22
  Is that? Is that true?
• 22:23
  No, right. So the answer is no.
• 22:26
  I was, we were certainly not familiar enough with mental
• 22:29
  health. You know, really from a, from a
• 22:32
  distance, in fact, you know, to US, mental health was possible,
• 22:38
  you know, juvenile delinquents, homelessness, you know,
• 22:43
  criminals, that's where mental health kind of like surfaced.
• 22:48
  So what did? You do professionally.
• 22:49
  Sorry to interrupt. You.
• 22:50
  Oh, no, that's OK. That's OK.
• 22:51
  I I I'm an educator. I'm a rabbi.
• 22:54
  Don't hold it against me. I I'm an educator.
• 22:57
  I've taught. I've taught in, in, in many.
• 23:02
  We live in Israel now 36 years. So I predominantly have taught
• 23:05
  in Israeli institutions here in Israel for many years.
• 23:09
  I served as an educational lecturer in the Israeli army, in
• 23:13
  Sahel, in the Israeli Defense Forces, and then, you know, just
• 23:17
  naturally led to education in this area after tragically what
• 23:21
  happened but prior to Gila's death.
• 23:24
  That's a large, if not the main essential problem is that I
• 23:29
  didn't know. We didn't know.
• 23:31
  We weren't aware enough. Never in our dreams did the word
• 23:36
  suicide rise. In fact, we were even of the
• 23:42
  belief of the mythical belief that if you spoke or said the
• 23:46
  word suicide, that would raise the idea or the person would
• 23:50
  think about it more, when in actuality, the it's quite the
• 23:54
  contrary. It's just the opposite.
• 23:56
  So I didn't know enough. And in fact, when after I'm
• 24:02
  sorry. So you wanted to after Gila died
• 24:04
  that that was a you know, to me at the beginning, it was really
• 24:09
  therapeutic. My response was I have to do
• 24:13
  something about this. I didn't know enough and I want
• 24:16
  people to know more. So I started to give lectures
• 24:19
  and talks, really telling Gila's story.
• 24:22
  Gila's story did have inside of it signs no question that she
• 24:28
  was suffering, that she was dealing.
• 24:31
  We Gabby, my wife and I, we do consider ourselves responsible
• 24:37
  parents. By no means are we perfect
• 24:40
  parents make a heck of a lot of mistakes like, you know, in all
• 24:43
  the world of parenting. But we're responsible parents
• 24:46
  and pretty wholesome parenting very involved in our kids lives.
• 24:51
  You know, we understand, we engage, we converse with them,
• 24:54
  we communicate with them, probably even more so now, of
• 24:58
  course. But so we were aware of what was
• 25:01
  going on with Gila, but we were not aware in a sense that we
• 25:05
  didn't understand enough. We didn't understand the pain
• 25:10
  that she was going through. We didn't understand what the
• 25:13
  what the response should be. We didn't really comprehend the
• 25:18
  options that should be placed in front of her in order to help
• 25:22
  her navigate through the through the difficulties that she was
• 25:26
  experiencing. Gila experienced a sexual
• 25:30
  assault, and that's really largely where she spiraled, you
• 25:35
  know, almost out of control. It took time, but not a long
• 25:38
  amount of time. And while we knew eventually
• 25:42
  what was going on and what happened and we suspected what
• 25:45
  happened, I cannot say that a clear path was laid out in front
• 25:51
  of us of she didn't share. That with you.
• 25:54
  No, no, at the beginning she did not.
• 25:56
  At the beginning she did not. She was very embarrassed,
• 26:00
  debased, degraded, and and that was part of the problem is when
• 26:06
  a person experiences trauma of such magnitude, the most
• 26:11
  important thing, if it's possible, is to share it.
• 26:15
  The faster you share it. And, and really, by the way,
• 26:18
  that's the whole concept of therapy.
• 26:20
  The whole idea of therapy is sharing, you know, extrovert,
• 26:27
  revealing, discussing, conversing, obviously in
• 26:30
  whatever form or fashion that that person finds is comfortable
• 26:34
  or with whom they find comfortable.
• 26:36
  So that could translate, by the way, into animal therapy, OK,
• 26:39
  There is horseback riding could be therapeutic for someone
• 26:42
  because somehow they're expressing something that is
• 26:46
  giving them opportunity to express to, to release, OK, for
• 26:51
  lack of a better word, could be, you know, CBT just, you know,
• 26:55
  cognitive behavioral therapy, conversing with the therapist in
• 26:59
  the classic fashion. It could be through art, music,
• 27:02
  poetry, whatever it is that presents an opportunity for a
• 27:05
  person could be through a job, whatever it is that it presents
• 27:08
  an opportunity for a person to somehow express what they're
• 27:13
  feeling internally. That is the most important
• 27:16
  thing, and especially. Is.
• 27:19
  It, I'm sorry, is. It expression or is it?
• 27:22
  Or is it contact like I understand, let's say if it's if
• 27:26
  it's art, so is it is it because I'm expressing the thing that
• 27:30
  I'm feeling? Or is it because I'm able to
• 27:32
  manipulate my feeling, my personal belief and, and in my
• 27:36
  understanding of psychology and we have a bachelors, but trauma
• 27:40
  is when there's an event in your life that anchors you in that
• 27:44
  trauma. So you can't come, you can't
• 27:46
  move past it. You could, it could be 20 years
• 27:48
  later, whenever you think about it, whenever it activates and
• 27:51
  yourself, you're stuck in that moment and you're completely
• 27:53
  frozen. So I think that the goal is, is
• 27:56
  that you're trying to take that event and disarm it, that you
• 27:59
  could think about that really terrible event and it doesn't
• 28:02
  have to affect you. I'm not sure if that's what you
• 28:04
  meant by expression or did you mean by manipulation?
• 28:06
  Because I can understand that just dealing with the the event
• 28:09
  in a different way, manipulating it, might give that person the
• 28:12
  ability to move through it. Right.
• 28:15
  So it's interesting you asked that.
• 28:16
  Look, first of all, like we said before, I'm not I'm not a
• 28:18
  psychologist by any stretch of the imagination, nor am I trauma
• 28:22
  therapist. So, but just based on whatever
• 28:25
  limited experience and knowledge that I have or might not have,
• 28:29
  okay, I wouldn't use the word manipulation.
• 28:33
  I would use the word incorporation.
• 28:37
  OK, So in other words, someone who is has dealt with a trauma
• 28:42
  and, and we all we know, especially if we're speaking now
• 28:44
  to a Jewish audience or North, you know, within the, let's say
• 28:49
  the observing community, there's a lot of sexual assault that
• 28:53
  goes on. I mean, I'm sure you speak about
• 28:55
  on your podcast. It's so important because
• 28:58
  there's so much of it going on and when someone experiences a
• 29:01
  trauma of that magnitude, I don't think they they manipulate
• 29:05
  it and I don't think they ever rid themselves of it.
• 29:08
  OK, the end. The question is, how do they
• 29:10
  incorporate it? All right, This trauma will stay
• 29:14
  with them forever and it might haunt them at certain times.
• 29:18
  How do you incorporate it into your life?
• 29:20
  You can live a healthy life with that trauma intact.
• 29:28
  It's just a question of how do you right.
• 29:30
  So just to give you a very lame example, about 5 months ago I
• 29:35
  broke my ankle. Very bad break.
• 29:38
  I'm going out of my mind because I, I am a runner and I like to
• 29:42
  exercise and I am exercising now, but it just drives me crazy
• 29:45
  that I'm still in pain, a lot of pain at times.
• 29:48
  And so the question is, you know, my wife will suddenly say
• 29:51
  to me, yeah, but but you're walking now and you're, you're,
• 29:55
  you're on the, you know, you're on the treadmill now or you're
• 29:57
  doing, you know, you whatever, you know, where were you 5
• 30:00
  months ago? So the point is I have pain, but
• 30:03
  I am incorporating that pain into somehow into my everyday
• 30:08
  life. I go out and lecture, I go out
• 30:10
  and teach, I go out and work, you know, I drive my car.
• 30:12
  So it's incorporating and it's the same idea, not on the same
• 30:16
  level, obviously, but I think probably of greater magnitude
• 30:20
  when it comes to trauma. So even breaking an ankle could
• 30:24
  be traumatic, but you learn how to incorporate that trauma into
• 30:27
  your life. Let's take a, a, a better
• 30:29
  example, OK, which is I should have brought up loss of a child,
• 30:34
  lost my child. According to many psychologists,
• 30:38
  that's the worst possible trauma that someone could experience.
• 30:42
  So at the beginning, you say to yourself, how am I going to
• 30:46
  continue to live? I'll never be able to continue
• 30:49
  to live. And then with time, hopefully
• 30:52
  you sort of teach yourself to say, how am I going to live with
• 30:56
  this pain? How am I going to live alongside
• 31:00
  this pain? So I still live.
• 31:03
  Am I in pain? Yes.
• 31:05
  Does it hurt me? Yes.
• 31:07
  Do I cry at times? Yes.
• 31:09
  But I still live. Do I still experience happiness?
• 31:12
  Yes. Do I have?
• 31:14
  Do I barrel with laughter at times?
• 31:16
  Yes, but I've learned or I have to learn to incorporate that
• 31:21
  pain and find my own methods. And everyone has their own way
• 31:24
  how I'm going to incorporate that pain into my life.
• 31:26
  And I think the same thing is with any trauma.
• 31:29
  Trauma is not necessarily going to go away.
• 31:31
  And by the way, there are psychologists who today say that
• 31:36
  there are people who are suicidal, who their suicidal
• 31:40
  thoughts or their suicidality will never go away, but they
• 31:44
  learn to live their lives with those suicidal thoughts and the
• 31:48
  best way in form possible. So that's, I think that's,
• 31:52
  that's that's what we're looking for.
• 31:54
  That's what you're going for. And when, when Gila went through
• 31:57
  that trauma, okay, it wasn't first of all, she didn't share
• 32:03
  it with us. It took a little while till it
• 32:06
  surfaced. We suspected, but you know, it
• 32:08
  was, it's more for her to be able to share and to impart and
• 32:11
  to explore with us as responsible parents.
• 32:15
  How do I deal with this trauma in my life?
• 32:17
  But the longer that it festers, the harder it is to do that.
• 32:21
  And excuse me, we were uninformed.
• 32:25
  We didn't have experience with trauma or mental health or
• 32:28
  suicidality or suicidal thoughts or things that would lead to
• 32:31
  that. So we we were not well equipped.
• 32:34
  And the point of what I do now is you can't save everybody, but
• 32:40
  you can hope that people will be better equipped with the
• 32:45
  capacity to address when and if. OK, so let's let's take it apart
• 32:52
  then. What are some?
• 32:53
  You already shared some of the misconceptions.
• 32:55
  I even had one of them, which I'm happy that you corrected me
• 32:58
  on the show. But what other misconceptions do
• 32:59
  you think are common in any community, not just ours, about
• 33:03
  suicide? OK, so the, the, the biggest
• 33:07
  misconception is that if I mentioned the word suicide to
• 33:11
  someone who is dealing with mental health, they'll become
• 33:14
  suicidal, right? Or if someone is suicidal, if I
• 33:19
  mentioned the word suicide to them, that will help promote
• 33:22
  them, for lack of a better word, to take their lives.
• 33:26
  And that is not true. The most would I would I teach,
• 33:31
  OK. And it's something that
• 33:32
  unfortunately, there are many mental health professionals who
• 33:35
  don't know this enough. But then there are some who do.
• 33:39
  And it's something that's important to teach people who
• 33:41
  want to understand suicide need to know someone who is suicidal.
• 33:46
  OK. The most important question to
• 33:49
  ask them is, are you thinking of taking your life?
• 33:53
  Are you, you know, thinking of, of killing yourself?
• 33:58
  Now, the reason why that's such an important question is because
• 34:03
  what we're trying to do in a therapeutic setting, and again,
• 34:07
  some I'm not a therapist, but understanding it right from a
• 34:10
  distance is to create communication, to create
• 34:15
  dialogue, to create a rapport. You can only really create a
• 34:20
  rapport with someone who is not necessarily understanding you,
• 34:24
  but wants to understand you and is expressing it as such.
• 34:29
  When you say to someone, are you thinking of killing yourself?
• 34:34
  And, and they are, they will say to themselves, wow, finally
• 34:39
  someone is willing to talk to me about what's bothering me.
• 34:44
  They know that suicide is a taboo.
• 34:47
  They know that they just can't bring it up at the dinner table,
• 34:51
  but they also know that they're suffering with these thoughts
• 34:54
  and it's and it's it's, you know, really ensconcing them and
• 34:59
  embalming them with these, with these thoughts that are really
• 35:02
  unbearable. So when you open the dialogue
• 35:05
  about it and say to them, look, I, I don't understand exactly
• 35:09
  what you're going through, but I understand that you might have
• 35:12
  suicidal thoughts. Let's talk about it.
• 35:14
  Tell me what it feels like. That's what you're doing.
• 35:17
  You're giving them the opportunity to create rapport,
• 35:20
  to release, to share. And that's really what therapy
• 35:25
  is going for, right? That's, that's what you're
• 35:26
  trying to do. I very often will say to
• 35:30
  soldiers in the IDF, because I, I give training where I don't
• 35:34
  like the word training, preparing for officers in the
• 35:38
  IDF. And I'll say to them, look, it's
• 35:40
  very, very hard for someone to go over to ask someone, excuse
• 35:45
  me, are you thinking of killing yourself?
• 35:47
  You look very, very, you know, distraught.
• 35:50
  We can't, it's hard for us to do that.
• 35:52
  So I say to them, there's another way to ask the question.
• 35:55
  Can you tell me, can you give me a reason or two why you'd like
• 36:00
  to live? And that's a very positive way
• 36:03
  of asking the same question, but it's coming from a positive
• 36:06
  connotation. And so when we ask that
• 36:09
  question, you're inviting them to say either they'll say, no, I
• 36:14
  really can't think of any reason why I'd like to live, which
• 36:16
  means that they're at a height of possible suicidality, or
• 36:21
  you're bringing them back to think about reasons why they'd
• 36:25
  like to live. And that actually is very
• 36:27
  helpful. So these conversations can be
• 36:31
  very, very beneficial if they're done in the right way and the
• 36:35
  right way is is what we're going for so that people familiarize
• 36:39
  themselves with these understandings and obviously
• 36:42
  could be more helpful to those around them.
• 36:45
  I'll share another misconception in my experience just in
• 36:48
  rabbinics, that sharing that you have or have had a suicidal
• 36:53
  thought, therefore has to damage your ability to find a shadow or
• 36:57
  a mate. I think that that's, I think to
• 37:00
  me, I get you far more experience in the field than I
• 37:03
  do, but that just drives me absolutely crazy.
• 37:05
  And that's, it's not just that particular aspect of mental
• 37:07
  illness. When you get married to someone
• 37:10
  or you're thinking about being married to someone, number one,
• 37:12
  they should, they should know what they're getting themselves
• 37:14
  up to. But #2 I would hope that that
• 37:17
  person is not so obtuse to think that just because that you're
• 37:21
  human and have and have struggles of your own, like,
• 37:24
  like they're perfect. Of course, right?
• 37:25
  The other side, it's, it's all about being human.
• 37:28
  Everyone has the thing that they're dealing with and there's
• 37:29
  absolutely no shame whatsoever and and sharing something that
• 37:34
  you're dealing with. And absolutely.
• 37:36
  Look, I mean, look, at the end of the day, you know, you, yeah,
• 37:40
  I'm again, I'm sure these are things that you speak about on
• 37:42
  the podcast as well. You know, you talk about the
• 37:44
  shit, the whole world. There are so many problems with
• 37:49
  it. But you know, in the end of the
• 37:51
  day, statistics say today that one out of every four, there are
• 37:57
  some who say one out of every three people in this world are
• 38:02
  either dealing with the mental health crisis or will deal with
• 38:07
  the mental health crisis at some point of their life.
• 38:10
  Now, if you do the math, it's impossible for it not to
• 38:15
  penetrate every community in the world.
• 38:19
  It's just impossible. So you know to bury it under the
• 38:23
  rug. Is it it?
• 38:25
  It's not going to go away and it'll just surface in a more a.
• 38:29
  Little faster? Yeah, a little.
• 38:31
  Faster in a more aggressive way? Exactly.
• 38:34
  Exactly. Are there any other
• 38:36
  misconceptions that you find relevant to bring now for our
• 38:40
  viewers that you think is important for people to know
• 38:42
  before we move on to responding? You know, I, I, I think it
• 38:48
  relates also to what you were saying and that is I, I really,
• 38:53
  well, there is one misconception that I've come across quite a
• 38:57
  few times. It's surprising.
• 38:59
  There are many people who still believe that if you medicate
• 39:04
  someone OK with psychiatric medications that they should get
• 39:09
  better. That is a big misconception
• 39:13
  because what people need to understand is that there are
• 39:18
  many people who are receiving therapy.
• 39:21
  When I talk about therapy, I'm speaking about talk therapy,
• 39:25
  cognitive therapy, dialectical therapy, whatever form or
• 39:30
  fashion. As I mentioned before, there are
• 39:32
  so many therapies out there who may also need medication.
• 39:38
  OK, but the opposite is not true.
• 39:42
  In other words, if you if someone prescribes for you
• 39:47
  psychiatric medication because you're dealing with depression,
• 39:51
  that they would should never ever say, oh, and you don't need
• 39:55
  therapy because this medication should do the job.
• 39:58
  No, they need therapy as well. They need therapy as well,
• 40:02
  therapy in whatever form or fashion, but they need and that.
• 40:05
  And by the way, a person could be self self therapeutic, right?
• 40:10
  Whereby just writing poetry or prose or playing a musical
• 40:14
  interest does it for them. That's fine.
• 40:16
  But they have received assistance from some kind of
• 40:19
  external therapeutic system that allows them to express and, or
• 40:26
  allows them to feel better about themselves or allows them to
• 40:29
  find purpose about them. So that's very, very important.
• 40:32
  So that's a very big misconception.
• 40:34
  The other misconception is I'll take two other ones.
• 40:37
  One is I tell people today, be very careful about medications.
• 40:42
  That doesn't mean that you don't need to take medication or that
• 40:45
  the person doesn't need psychiatric medication.
• 40:47
  But you know what? We have so many means of
• 40:50
  research today on the Internet. Before you give the medication
• 40:54
  to your loved one, search it, Google search it.
• 40:57
  What are the side effects of that medication?
• 41:01
  Weight gain, bloating, lack of appetite, lack of sleep.
• 41:07
  Those are things that are important to know and to brace
• 41:10
  yourself with or to ask your doctor about so we can be more
• 41:14
  well informed. So medication is something that
• 41:17
  we need to be more aware of and more on about.
• 41:22
  And the final thing I'll say is instinct, trust your instinct.
• 41:28
  If you are a parent and you're sitting with your child's mental
• 41:33
  health therapist and something doesn't sit well with you, you
• 41:36
  know, is something is just trust that instinct and and act on it.
• 41:42
  Now I'm not saying you have to disengage from that therapist
• 41:45
  and I'm not saying that you disengage from the second, but
• 41:47
  you should ask and say, you know, this doesn't sit well with
• 41:50
  me. Can you explain this a little
• 41:52
  better to me? Or why are you going down this
• 41:55
  Ave. It just doesn't seem like the
• 41:57
  right way. You have every right and every
• 41:59
  responsibility to trust your instinct.
• 42:02
  Kurdish bar who God gave us instincts for a reason.
• 42:06
  Let's trust them and let's listen to them more attentively.
• 42:10
  Not every doctor is is an expert in everything and and they don't
• 42:16
  always have the right answers. So we we need to question, we
• 42:20
  need to show that the we have a vested interest especially in
• 42:22
  our loved ones and our children and our family members, our
• 42:25
  spouses and we need to listen to that instinct at the very least
• 42:30
  have query about it to be able to for the sake of
• 42:33
  clarification. You know, I believe that that
• 42:36
  instinct is completely spiritual in nature.
• 42:38
  So there's a spouse Ms. that and I'm and I'm Pretty Little fish,
• 42:42
  but there's a. Spot the spouse Ms. By the way,
• 42:44
  Rabbi is my great great uncle. Really.
• 42:50
  I don't know if I don't know if that'll make him very happy, but
• 42:53
  but it's nice thing for me to mention.
• 42:58
  So that my it's just a such a powerful spots Sam as he says
• 43:01
  something so unbelievable when Avraham and Abraham gets the the
• 43:06
  Nevua, the prophetic vision, God tells him leave where you are,
• 43:12
  go far away. And ultimately that's going to
• 43:13
  be arts Canaan, land of Canaan arts Israel.
• 43:16
  So this Fasthama says, if you think that that was a prophecy
• 43:20
  to Avramovina, you've made a big mistake and you don't understand
• 43:23
  what the Pasaka saying. He says what what happens is a
• 43:26
  Bosco heavenly voice comes out every single day and tells every
• 43:30
  single Jew go to Aretis role. And that's why you have, if
• 43:34
  anyone's familiar with Birthright and I've had a lot of
• 43:36
  contact with great birthright people, you can have a Mohawk
• 43:39
  don't even know the Jewish alphabet, you know, with tattoos
• 43:42
  all over. You come to the Western world
• 43:43
  the first time and you're just like, you know, Israel's an
• 43:44
  amazing place. I have no idea why they feel
• 43:47
  that way. And it's because they have, they
• 43:49
  have this connection with that spiritual instinct, that deep
• 43:52
  gut feeling. And the same thing is true, I
• 43:54
  think, for why, why the, the people of the flood were
• 43:58
  punished. You know, they we were told in
• 44:00
  Jewish tradition that God doesn't punish unless he he
• 44:02
  gives us some sort of warning. So you could say, well, if the
• 44:06
  nation of the flood, the people, the flood were punished because
• 44:09
  of all of their licentious behavior, they weren't given a
• 44:11
  tower. How would they know?
• 44:12
  And I think the simple answer is this because they knew they
• 44:15
  didn't have to be told. They felt it when a person has
• 44:18
  their instinct, and I'm going to go as far to say especially
• 44:21
  mothers, because mothers have their extra finger on the pulse.
• 44:23
  They have that beanie saver when something feels wrong.
• 44:26
  I think it's spiritual. I think you have to listen and
• 44:28
  it doesn't always have to be right, but it's definitely
• 44:30
  something, something very Ruth me that's speaking to you.
• 44:33
  And in terms of the thing that you said about pharmacology.
• 44:38
  So I was speaking recently to a psychiatrist and he was telling
• 44:41
  me that the positive effects and the negative effects of SSRIs
• 44:46
  and he said, well, what I really don't like is when I'm going to
• 44:50
  or when psychiatrists write out SSRIs and say this is all you
• 44:53
  need to do because then the following thing will happen.
• 44:57
  The SSRI will work maybe, and if it does, then you'll only rely
• 45:01
  on that. So it'll be a crutch.
• 45:02
  And the second SSRI is gone, you might even fall into a deeper
• 45:04
  depression because now you're like, you've lost your crutch.
• 45:07
  What the, what they're supposed to do according to this
• 45:09
  psychiatrist. And I believe it to be true.
• 45:11
  And it seems that you do too, as it's opposed to ADO in the
• 45:14
  therapeutic process. It's, it's absolutely a coupling
• 45:17
  of the two things. So that's, that's beautiful to
• 45:20
  hear. Now in terms of us as as simple
• 45:23
  educators, rabbanim teachers, Lahavdel priests, it doesn't
• 45:27
  matter what, what should we parents, etcetera, be looking
• 45:30
  for in signs and our children and our students and our
• 45:33
  friends, maybe even our parents, people around us that should be
• 45:36
  like, oh, maybe we should be stepping in and at least
• 45:38
  speaking to them about it and see if they need extra help.
• 45:40
  So what are some signs? And then I'd like you to please,
• 45:43
  if possible, include little children, because I think that
• 45:45
  that's very important. As well.
• 45:47
  Yeah, absolutely. So you know, when you two
• 45:51
  things, first of all, when you mentioned little children, the
• 45:53
  reason why you want me to include them is because our
• 45:55
  little children are growing up much faster than than we can
• 46:00
  imagine that today. You know, one of the signs, for
• 46:03
  example, is what's called self harming.
• 46:05
  So a person couldn't, you'll find that generally speaking,
• 46:09
  they'll be incisions on the on the hand or on the arm or on the
• 46:13
  bottom of their legs and they're inflicting upon themselves what,
• 46:17
  what really is bodily harm, right?
• 46:20
  It's pain, but it's a means of their sort of venting their
• 46:25
  internal externally. But we see, you see bodily harm,
• 46:30
  you see self harming today, even in eight-year olds.
• 46:33
  So it, it's not like any age is, you know, not prone to have this
• 46:38
  happen. It's it's happening more
• 46:40
  aggressively. So and kids, you know, they know
• 46:42
  a lot more because they're they're reading, they see, they
• 46:45
  watching, you know, there's just a lot more of a available out
• 46:48
  there for better or for worse. So this is something set.
• 46:52
  That's one point that I want to mention on your question.
• 46:54
  The second is you speak about, you know, community leaders,
• 46:58
  right, community, community leadership faculty, etcetera.
• 47:03
  We have a seminar that I give over, which is called N2S
• 47:07
  Navigation to Salvation, and I give it over to rabbis,
• 47:12
  community leaders. I've done it also in church
• 47:14
  settings and the idea is to, to ask exactly that.
• 47:19
  OK, what do I need to identify amongst my students, my peers,
• 47:24
  my colleagues, my Co workers or my employees?
• 47:28
  What do I need to look for that might demonstrate a pattern that
• 47:32
  something is going awry? So, for example, and, and, and
• 47:37
  by the way, we do the same thing for parents.
• 47:39
  We have a, a, a presentation called From concern to
• 47:43
  conversation, navigating my child's mental health.
• 47:48
  So it's the same question. So some reveal itself at home
• 47:51
  and some things reveal themselves in the classroom or
• 47:54
  some things reveal themselves in the faculty room or whatever it
• 47:57
  might be. So some of the things that we
• 47:59
  have to look, look, in the end of the day, I always explain to
• 48:03
  people that mental health is very often what's called
• 48:06
  subjective. And what that means is is that a
• 48:11
  healthy person can be productive in their environment.
• 48:17
  So for example, that environment changes according to what the
• 48:22
  expectations are. So a student is expected to get
• 48:26
  on the school bus morning to get to school, to try and stay awake
• 48:31
  most of the hours of classes to, you know, intake the information
• 48:36
  to get back on the school bus, go home, do their homework, get
• 48:39
  a good night's sleeping and repeat that the next day.
• 48:43
  Now, the moment that you see those patterns are becoming, you
• 48:48
  know, are being obstructed or, or becoming problematic or just
• 48:53
  not exhibiting themselves in a productive fashion, that's the
• 48:56
  moment they have to say, wait a minute, maybe something's going
• 48:59
  down here. So, for example, when you start
• 49:03
  seeing a student who is normally extrovert and socially involved
• 49:07
  and part of the clubs and all of a sudden they're hanging around
• 49:09
  by themselves during the break, or they're no longer socializing
• 49:13
  or they're no longer leaving the classroom or they start to be
• 49:17
  tardy. They're not showing up in school
• 49:19
  anymore or they're not showing up on time.
• 49:22
  They're no longer doing their homework when they used to be
• 49:24
  studious. They're no longer look
• 49:26
  physically kempt. They, they're, you know, they
• 49:29
  kind of like, you know, they're not, they just look unkempt or
• 49:36
  they're, you know, not as, not as groomed as they normally
• 49:40
  would be. So they're not showering enough
• 49:42
  or they're not changing their clothing.
• 49:44
  Those are signs that a person is starting to wonder what's the
• 49:49
  point of it all. And they're starting to sort of
• 49:52
  show signs that they're giving up.
• 49:56
  And those could be signs of depression.
• 49:58
  Exhausted exhaustion, frustration, blurts of anger.
• 50:04
  OK, those are things that are demonstrating that the person is
• 50:07
  just not functioning anymore within the normal framework of
• 50:11
  their expectations. I'll give you an example.
• 50:15
  I never really understood what depression was.
• 50:18
  Over 80% of mental health challenges today begin with or
• 50:23
  are where depression is. So people suffer from
• 50:26
  depression. And after Gila, I'm, I'm a
• 50:30
  person. I said before, I like to
• 50:31
  exercise. I like to jog, I like to run.
• 50:34
  And, you know, I ran a couple of marathons.
• 50:37
  And after Gila died, I, I started, you know, I wanted to
• 50:42
  exercise again. It was a means of producing
• 50:44
  endorphins and trying to feel healthy.
• 50:47
  Excuse me. And I realized that after 123
• 50:51
  kilometers, I was just exhausted.
• 50:54
  And I was like very frustrated. Like, what's going on?
• 50:56
  Why can't I move my body? And the reason why is because I
• 51:00
  was depressed. I was spending a large part of
• 51:03
  my day crying, and even if I wasn't crying externally,
• 51:08
  internally my mind was overworking with exhaustion
• 51:13
  about, Oh my God, how am I going to deal with this?
• 51:16
  I'm so depressed. This is so hard, this is so
• 51:18
  difficult, this is so painful. How am I going to deal with the
• 51:21
  other people around me? How am I going to perform?
• 51:23
  How am I going to etcetera. And that exerts a huge amount of
• 51:28
  energy that's being exhausted on things that we would normally
• 51:33
  take for granted. So, and then I realized that I
• 51:38
  just can't run because I don't have any physical energy or
• 51:41
  stamina to do so. When a person cries, OK, what's
• 51:46
  the first thing that happens after the person has had a big
• 51:49
  cry? They fall asleep.
• 51:51
  Why do they fall asleep? Because tears.
• 51:54
  You're getting dehydrated. You're losing hydration from
• 51:57
  your body. So these are signs of, you know,
• 52:02
  just exhaustion. A person who's suffering from
• 52:04
  depression, it will take them about three times the amount of
• 52:09
  energy to do a normal task that the average person would be
• 52:14
  required to do. So when we see a student sitting
• 52:16
  in our classroom and he puts his head down right away and he's
• 52:19
  just exhausted and he what do we do as teachers?
• 52:22
  You know, we say, hey, hey, what's the problem?
• 52:25
  Do you find me boring? Wake up.
• 52:27
  Come on, get with it. Get with the program.
• 52:29
  And they just can't. They just can't.
• 52:31
  They can't keep themselves awake because they've been up all
• 52:33
  night worrying about things or how they're going to face the
• 52:36
  next day. So that's depression.
• 52:38
  So when a person is exhibiting about five to six of those signs
• 52:44
  for about a two week period that then you have to really wonder,
• 52:48
  are they dealing with a mental health issue that needs to be
• 52:51
  addressed? And that's why it's so important
• 52:56
  for, you know, professionals, community leaders, teachers,
• 53:01
  educators, parents, to learn effective communication.
• 53:06
  It's begins with listening, which is we're not good at.
• 53:11
  We're not. I'm including myself, by the
• 53:13
  way. I'm terrible at it.
• 53:14
  Listening is an art. We as Jews are not good.
• 53:19
  Listen. Israelis are not good listeners.
• 53:21
  OK. It's an art that needs to be
• 53:23
  worked on. So it begins with listening.
• 53:26
  Then it begins with seeing and identifying what's going on
• 53:29
  here. And then it begins with
• 53:30
  responding, which really means, hey, I notice you're going
• 53:34
  through tough times or it must be difficult for you talk to me
• 53:38
  about it. Do you want to talk about it?
• 53:40
  Tell me what what's going through your mind, you know, or
• 53:43
  don't and I'll try again. Or do you want to speak to
• 53:45
  someone else? So those are those are the
• 53:49
  patterns that we need to get more used to so that we can be
• 53:53
  preventative as opposed to just responsive.
• 53:57
  Is that is that the first step that we should always be taking
• 54:00
  stuff? We're seeing these signs and our
• 54:02
  parents and our children and our brothers, our sisters, our
• 54:04
  students. So first we're going to engage
• 54:07
  and, and basically say, is everything OK, how you doing?
• 54:10
  And now and let's say they unpack a little bit.
• 54:13
  Our our do you want us to, to keep on unpacking with them?
• 54:16
  Should we immediately just pivot them?
• 54:17
  Should we say, hey, you're dealing with something big.
• 54:19
  I'm out of the picture. What are we supposed to be doing
• 54:21
  with when these signs present themselves?
• 54:23
  I, I, I think the most important thing is to work with them.
• 54:27
  What I mean by that is, look, you might not be equipped for
• 54:32
  your child to answer all the things that are going through,
• 54:35
  but if your child wants to share with them, with you and talk to
• 54:38
  you about them, you're halfway there.
• 54:41
  So just listen and give them the opportunity to express if
• 54:45
  they're, that's a great gift, if they're, if they're willing to
• 54:48
  do that. Usually people, you know, kids
• 54:50
  and, and teens or adolescents post adolescents who are dealing
• 54:54
  with depression. The hard part is how do you get
• 54:56
  them to talk? You know, and, and our kids
• 54:59
  today are not good communicators because they're on their phones,
• 55:03
  because they're on, you know, online all the time.
• 55:06
  It it, it's hard for them to learn how to communicate.
• 55:09
  They're not learning expression, so it doesn't come natural to
• 55:12
  them, but if they're naturally willing to express, that's
• 55:15
  fantastic. And just listening and then
• 55:18
  saying to them, hey, you know, I see you're going through
• 55:20
  something. What do you think include them
• 55:23
  in the process? What do you think about speaking
• 55:25
  to so and so? They seem to know about this
• 55:29
  area. Would you be comfortable going
• 55:31
  with me, you know, to them and I'll just drop you off there and
• 55:34
  I'll be there with you. Or would you like me to take
• 55:37
  you? Would you like to explore with
• 55:38
  me that possibility? No OK, let's think about another
• 55:42
  possible. What would be a good idea for
• 55:43
  you? I'll give you the following
• 55:45
  ideas. What do you think about some of
• 55:47
  these be let let them be a part of the process.
• 55:50
  If they're willing to, If they're not willing to and they
• 55:53
  don't want to engage and they classically say just leave me
• 55:56
  alone, then you have to be a little more creative.
• 56:00
  First of all, we need to understand that when someone
• 56:02
  says just leave me alone in their language, that's not what
• 56:06
  it means in our language. It's what it means.
• 56:08
  But we have to think in their terms, in their language, in
• 56:11
  their language. What they're saying is let me
• 56:13
  see if you come back to me tomorrow.
• 56:16
  I don't want to talk to you right now.
• 56:17
  Leave me alone. Let's see if mommy or Daddy
• 56:20
  comes back to me tomorrow. They probably don't really care.
• 56:23
  And then the next day you come back to them again.
• 56:25
  Yeah. Hey, I know things have been
• 56:26
  tough. You you want to talk now and you
• 56:29
  try again. You know what?
• 56:30
  Let's not talk. How about we go for a walk
• 56:32
  together? How about we go go for a coffee?
• 56:35
  How about we go get some fresh air?
• 56:37
  How about we sit in the sun and just not talk at all, but just
• 56:39
  enjoy the sun. You know, just things like that.
• 56:42
  Try and find the hobbies, the interests in their terms and use
• 56:49
  those that will draw them toward you and demonstrate genuine
• 56:53
  interest in what they're interested in.
• 56:56
  And you know, so we we have to really think in their terms.
• 57:00
  There are two rules that I always say that we need and one
• 57:06
  is called validation. So validation is not necessarily
• 57:12
  saying to the person, hey, I know exactly what you're going
• 57:16
  through, let's talk. No, no, that's a bad thing
• 57:19
  because you want to give them their space.
• 57:21
  You don't know what they're going through.
• 57:23
  Validation is I noticed you're going through something.
• 57:27
  I don't understand it, but I know that it must be tough.
• 57:32
  So let's talk about it if you'd like to.
• 57:34
  And empathy is I'm here for you. All right, We have to be very
• 57:39
  careful about making promises that we can't keep.
• 57:44
  Never say to someone. Now, I shouldn't say never, but
• 57:47
  rarely should you say to someone who's dealing with an issue,
• 57:51
  hey, here's my phone number. Call me anytime.
• 57:55
  Because I always tell people what's going to happen is they
• 57:58
  probably will call you anytime, including at 3:00 AM, and you're
• 58:04
  not going to be happy about it. So you didn't really mean, you
• 58:08
  know, call me any time. What you really meant was I want
• 58:12
  to help you. So I want to make myself
• 58:14
  available to you. OK, Make yourself available to
• 58:17
  them when you can be available, that's fine.
• 58:21
  And and and that's, that's good because then they'll contact you
• 58:24
  at a time when you said that you want to be available to them.
• 58:28
  And indeed, you'll be able to get them response.
• 58:30
  I, you know, it's interesting after I always say with
• 58:35
  grievers, people who are dealing with bereavement and grieving.
• 58:38
  And it's also a seminar that I give over to rabbis and
• 58:42
  community leaders about how to address someone who lost a child
• 58:46
  because something that's very, very hard to do.
• 58:49
  But so, yeah, I quote, there are no words.
• 58:53
  But one of the things I say is I find that people who lost
• 58:58
  someone who's close to them, they what they want most is
• 59:03
  what's called authenticity. They want real.
• 59:07
  They don't want everything that's on the periphery or fake
• 59:10
  stuff. They want real emotion, real raw
• 59:14
  reaction. So if you're not going to give
• 59:17
  me that, then don't waste my time.
• 59:19
  But if you're going to be authentic with me, then tell me
• 59:21
  really what you could do for me. Don't, don't, can you?
• 59:24
  Illustrate that. Could you illustrate a poor
• 59:26
  example and a positive example? Yeah, yeah, exactly what I said.
• 59:29
  So after Gila died, if people would come over to me, they'd
• 59:33
  classically say, you know, I, I know exactly what you're going
• 59:37
  through, or I can only imagine what you're going through.
• 59:42
  And I would say to them, you can't imagine what I'm going.
• 59:45
  You can't imagine what I'm going through.
• 59:47
  And by the way, why would I, if I'm a decent person, why would I
• 59:51
  want you to imagine what I'm going through?
• 59:54
  I don't want anyone to experience that pain.
• 59:56
  Why would I want that for anyone?
• 59:59
  But what you can say is. You must be going through a
• 1:00:03
  really, I know you're going through a really hard time.
• 1:00:06
  I don't understand your pain, but I do understand that you're
• 1:00:10
  in pain. And if you're here, if you want
• 1:00:13
  to talk about it, I'm here for you.
• 1:00:17
  And that's, that's, that's authentic.
• 1:00:20
  So I think that's where that's also where if someone is
• 1:00:23
  struggling with mental health wants to be, that's the kind of
• 1:00:26
  response that they want. They want it like, you know, how
• 1:00:29
  our coaches and sports would always say like, keep it real,
• 1:00:32
  keep it real. There's a lot of truth to that,
• 1:00:36
  you know, on on a much higher level.
• 1:00:38
  And I think that that's that's really important for us to
• 1:00:41
  remember. So I'll tell you where I I
• 1:00:43
  personally struggle. I, I have AI have a a gift.
• 1:00:47
  We both have this gift or by hammer, which is there's a
• 1:00:50
  tremendous convenience in being a rather religious leader and
• 1:00:54
  it's and it's a convenience. I say it that way honestly
• 1:00:56
  because if there's someone at your station or below your
• 1:01:00
  station, you know, there's a certain weight that you can
• 1:01:03
  bring Azure of which can help someone get the proper help that
• 1:01:06
  they need. There's a big misconception
• 1:01:07
  about using the Torah. So there's a Mishnah that says
• 1:01:11
  that if you use the honor of the Torah, it's our person will be
• 1:01:13
  punished severely for that. And I my belief is what the
• 1:01:16
  Mishna is saying is that if you use that for your own honor,
• 1:01:19
  being a rabbi is nothing. Who am I?
• 1:01:22
  I'm nobody. What a Ruff is is that it's a
• 1:01:24
  seat that you sit in that I'm due to the best of my ability,
• 1:01:27
  going to sacrifice for the nation of God.
• 1:01:30
  That's what that means, right? There's no personal so I feel
• 1:01:32
  like these are one of those things were rabbis, priests,
• 1:01:36
  imams, etcetera, and parents throw their children.
• 1:01:38
  You know, when you earn a place of authority, it's a little
• 1:01:40
  easier for someone below your station and you see them
• 1:01:42
  struggling. You could say I really see that
• 1:01:44
  you're going through something. Share it with me for I find
• 1:01:47
  difficulty personally and there's a particular story that
• 1:01:51
  you know, when I was younger, it's just so sad.
• 1:01:53
  I wasn't sure what to do for that person, but there was a
• 1:01:56
  someone who I really admired and loved and he was going through a
• 1:02:00
  serious depression and I was a teenager at the time.
• 1:02:04
  I really knew nothing. And you know, he asked me, he
• 1:02:07
  said, is it ever religiously OK to take your life?
• 1:02:12
  And I said no. And, and you don't want it.
• 1:02:15
  You don't want to do that. You're such an amazing guy.
• 1:02:17
  I said to him, look, you're just going through a really hard
• 1:02:20
  thing right now. But what?
• 1:02:21
  And what I'm, I was 14 at the time or something.
• 1:02:24
  And he ended up taking his life and I felt so bad about that.
• 1:02:29
  And what I should have done in the moment was to encourage him
• 1:02:32
  or told someone else about it. And I, I didn't, I, I confess,
• 1:02:36
  but even now at this point in my life, seeing people on the
• 1:02:39
  generation above me are people that are on a higher stature,
• 1:02:43
  It's much harder to encourage those people to seek help.
• 1:02:46
  So what would you recommend to someone that says to you, you
• 1:02:49
  know, I'm not seeking help, You know, I'm, I'm fine this way or
• 1:02:52
  what's the point, etcetera. How, how would you approach such
• 1:02:55
  a problem? Because it's complex.
• 1:02:58
  That's an excellent question. It's a it's a very, I mean, that
• 1:03:01
  is the most difficult part of the whole puzzle, right?
• 1:03:07
  It is what do you do for that person?
• 1:03:09
  What do you say to that person? What?
• 1:03:12
  And I think that the, the most important thing is consistency.
• 1:03:19
  In other words, look, that person has the right to say, I
• 1:03:22
  don't want to talk to you. I'm not interested, you know,
• 1:03:24
  just leave me alone. And that's that, that's OK.
• 1:03:28
  They're allowed to do that. Respect that space, but also
• 1:03:32
  respect that what they might be saying to you is, you know, I, I
• 1:03:36
  just don't know what to do with myself.
• 1:03:38
  I just, I just, I don't know how to handle the situation.
• 1:03:41
  And so you have to follow that up with further response, maybe
• 1:03:48
  not at the same day, may not not in the same hour, but the next
• 1:03:51
  thing you have to continue to demonstrate to them, I'm
• 1:03:55
  interested in you. Why are you interested in me?
• 1:03:58
  I'm interested in you because you add something to me.
• 1:04:01
  You add something to this world. My interest in you should be
• 1:04:05
  defined as the fact that I feel that you give or have purpose in
• 1:04:10
  being here. And so there should be that
• 1:04:13
  interest that continues to, you know, reveal itself when you're
• 1:04:18
  when you're looking to share and to speak to that person.
• 1:04:21
  Now, ultimately the, the two things that you want to try to
• 1:04:27
  avoid as much as possible are for a person, right?
• 1:04:31
  Person who is the 2 main issues that I always say causes or the
• 1:04:36
  causes of mental health problems are isolation and
• 1:04:41
  purposelessness. So when a person feels alone,
• 1:04:45
  that's a very, very big detriment.
• 1:04:47
  It's a very, very uncomfortable and difficult place for a person
• 1:04:51
  to be in and lack of purpose. But, and what I mean by lack of
• 1:04:57
  purpose is, you know, what am I doing here?
• 1:04:59
  What am I here for? Nobody wants me here.
• 1:05:02
  What do I have to offer this world?
• 1:05:04
  Now, it could be that they feel at that moment in their lives
• 1:05:07
  that they don't have anything. So what you want to do is you
• 1:05:09
  want to try and create purpose, right?
• 1:05:13
  That purpose I. Remember that perhaps this is
• 1:05:15
  what you do, do for the world, etcetera.
• 1:05:17
  Yeah, and by the way, it could be, it could be the smallest of
• 1:05:21
  things. So, and that's why sometimes I
• 1:05:23
  say, you know, tap into their hobbies.
• 1:05:26
  So if they like music, if they like art, if they like cartoons,
• 1:05:29
  if they like, you know, if they like film reviewing films,
• 1:05:32
  that's fine. But but let's go watch a film
• 1:05:35
  together. And I'd like to hear what your,
• 1:05:37
  what your opinion is of it. When you give them the
• 1:05:39
  opportunity to express their opinion of that movie, you know,
• 1:05:42
  that, that, that they remind themselves of, Oh, I have a
• 1:05:46
  purpose. I'm, I just added some kind of
• 1:05:49
  dimension to this world. It might not be, you know, in,
• 1:05:52
  in, you know, nuclear, you know, nuclear science, but it's
• 1:05:56
  something for them. It's it's very, very important.
• 1:05:59
  Now, what I often remind people is when we speak about
• 1:06:03
  isolation, OK, and purpose, what we need to remember is it's not
• 1:06:08
  on our terms of definition, it's on theirs.
• 1:06:12
  So, for example, Gila, our Gila was surrounded consistently by
• 1:06:20
  her mother, her father, her mother, more so her siblings.
• 1:06:24
  We were there. We're very close friends.
• 1:06:26
  We're there for all the time. But she still felt lonely.
• 1:06:30
  Why? She was a social animal.
• 1:06:33
  She was a social butterfly and she was the leader of her peers
• 1:06:36
  that she was rambunctious and vivacious and social and she was
• 1:06:40
  out there. And the last two months or so of
• 1:06:45
  her life, she was not. And she, and I'm not blaming,
• 1:06:51
  you know, her friends, but her friends were not there.
• 1:06:54
  They were absent, not. Consciously, what should what
• 1:06:57
  should they have done? Should they have forced getting
• 1:07:00
  together? Even if you said I don't really
• 1:07:02
  feel in the mood right now. Just come and see her and what
• 1:07:06
  if you said? I don't.
• 1:07:07
  I don't want you to come. That's fine.
• 1:07:09
  Come again, send a different friend, you know, just knock on
• 1:07:15
  the door when you can. I, I look sending Whatsapps and
• 1:07:20
  messages that that they do. It's not the same.
• 1:07:24
  Someone needs to see you. Someone needs to feel.
• 1:07:26
  I will tell you by the way, that the majority not always many
• 1:07:31
  times when it would be a friend coming over to see her, she was
• 1:07:35
  open to it. She she she appreciated it.
• 1:07:39
  So that's the. Fear, right?
• 1:07:40
  Like a person who's in that isolation phase, they will
• 1:07:43
  always tell you if you ask them on the phone, I don't really
• 1:07:46
  feel like hanging out. I don't want to hang out.
• 1:07:47
  And so, like, you know, you're troubling them, right?
• 1:07:51
  Because what they might be, look, they might be really
• 1:07:54
  saying, I don't feel like hanging out.
• 1:07:56
  But what they also might be saying is I don't feel like
• 1:07:59
  talking on the phone, but when you show up at the door and you
• 1:08:04
  know, you say, Hey, I, I, I was thinking about you or I brought
• 1:08:09
  this ice cream. I know you love this flavor.
• 1:08:11
  I just brought it for you and I wanted you to have it.
• 1:08:14
  It it's, it's saying to the person way beyond that.
• 1:08:17
  It's saying, you know I had you in mind because you mean
• 1:08:20
  something to me and you're an important part of my life.
• 1:08:25
  Right, OK, now is it inappropriate?
• 1:08:28
  Let's say, let's go back to the example of an older person or
• 1:08:32
  someone you know above your statue that's refusing help.
• 1:08:34
  Is it inappropriate to go behind their back, so to speak?
• 1:08:37
  Let's say, you know, they're going through something very
• 1:08:39
  difficult, but they might not be sharing it with anyone.
• 1:08:42
  How about us telling their spouse or their mentor or their
• 1:08:46
  friend or their child what's what do you think about those
• 1:08:49
  things? I mean, look, if there's any,
• 1:08:52
  any time when it comes to, you know, we know the concept of
• 1:08:55
  pikua nefesh, you know, Dokhina Takoli.
• 1:08:57
  So when you have any time, when it comes to even a shash, even a
• 1:09:01
  fear or an inkling that this might be harmful or dangerous to
• 1:09:05
  their life, you have to act upon it.
• 1:09:07
  So very often I'll get the question from teachers or
• 1:09:12
  officers in the army, but I spoke to this kid or student or
• 1:09:16
  Hayao soldier in confidence and they said, I always say to them,
• 1:09:20
  open the conversation by saying, look, everything we're going to
• 1:09:24
  speak about is confidential. Except I want you to know if I
• 1:09:28
  think, God forbid something is that you're in danger or
• 1:09:31
  something is dangerous to you, I have to, it's my obligation.
• 1:09:35
  I have to report this forward. Most of the time, almost all the
• 1:09:40
  time, the person will say, that's fine, let's talk because
• 1:09:43
  they're there and they're there for a reason.
• 1:09:45
  They want to talk, they want to, they want to live.
• 1:09:48
  They want to find a means, a reason to live.
• 1:09:51
  Again, there's no question in my mind that Gila wanted to live.
• 1:09:55
  No question about it. She just was in a state of, of
• 1:10:01
  terrible, you know, pain. And at that moment, that's what
• 1:10:05
  was presented to her. Had something else been
• 1:10:09
  presented to her in those few moments and there was certain
• 1:10:12
  negligence, the story would have been different, you know, the
• 1:10:17
  tragedy would have been different.
• 1:10:18
  So I think that, you know, that there's, there's that.
• 1:10:24
  If you, if we think, God forbid that someone's in danger, you
• 1:10:27
  have to let that person know. I, I, I need to, you know, if
• 1:10:32
  they resist, they say absolutely under no circumstances say look,
• 1:10:35
  I, I, you know, I'm here, I'll talk about I, I have to be able
• 1:10:38
  to do this. And, and if you feel they are in
• 1:10:41
  danger, sometimes they do have to be forcibly taken to a place
• 1:10:45
  where they could be secure, where they could be held secure.
• 1:10:48
  And that's like something that's hospitalization.
• 1:10:51
  But, but you know, in Gila's case, by the way, after about
• 1:10:56
  three weeks after she was sexually assaulted, she
• 1:10:59
  eventually did go to her Madriha, right, who's someone a
• 1:11:03
  little older than her and confided in her and asked her
• 1:11:06
  not to breach any confidence. And she did not.
• 1:11:10
  And I'm not blaming her, God forbid, for what happened, but
• 1:11:13
  that's a mistake. It has to be passed forward if a
• 1:11:17
  person is in danger and they have to know that.
• 1:11:20
  This is the perfect part to pivot to our last point of the
• 1:11:22
  conversation. There's a famous mission of
• 1:11:24
  Brewer, the Huff. It's Heim in his introductory
• 1:11:28
  remarks or early remarks in the Shahanach and Jewish law, he
• 1:11:33
  discusses following Jewish law. Even if people ridicule you, you
• 1:11:37
  know, I think sometimes people are afraid to to share because,
• 1:11:40
  you know, don't, don't do you want to be viewed as a weirdo?
• 1:11:44
  I mean, people will make fun of you.
• 1:11:45
  What if you're wrong, etcetera, etcetera.
• 1:11:47
  And my response and we'll have the what the what the habits
• 1:11:51
  crime says. It's like, yes, look like a fool
• 1:11:54
  because you're doing it, you know, for God, which is one
• 1:11:56
  thing that we have. You can sign an agreement that
• 1:11:58
  you're not going to share. You know, you think some some
• 1:12:01
  sort of confidentiality between you and someone else that oh, if
• 1:12:04
  they're, you know, threatening to take their life, it's not my
• 1:12:06
  responsibility. Now it is your religious
• 1:12:09
  responsibility. If you think that you mentioned
• 1:12:11
  it before, tell someone, make sure that that person gets the
• 1:12:16
  help that they critically need as part of the Jewish nation.
• 1:12:19
  Is there anything that is unique that you think that we bring to
• 1:12:22
  the table that makes providing therapy for people that are
• 1:12:26
  going through depression or suicide a little easier?
• 1:12:30
  Or are there certain tools at our disposal that we should be
• 1:12:34
  married, aware of that we can use in order to help our
• 1:12:36
  brethren? I think there's two things, you
• 1:12:39
  know, as I'll say, I know Rahmani and Binay Rahmani and
• 1:12:43
  him, right? And sometimes it's using a
• 1:12:44
  negative connotation. But in the end of the day, Olam
• 1:12:47
  has said Ebene, right? So we're part of constructing a
• 1:12:51
  world of facet, of kindness, of graciousness, of consideration,
• 1:12:55
  of sensitivity. I don't think there's any, I
• 1:12:58
  don't think there's any greater nation that exhibits
• 1:13:03
  responsibility. Arivut Koiswala Revimzet Bazet,
• 1:13:08
  right, Arivut? The responsibility that we have
• 1:13:11
  for one another. I don't think there's any nation
• 1:13:13
  in the world that exhibits that type of that.
• 1:13:15
  That's a mitzvah. That's a commandment that you're
• 1:13:17
  responsible for one another. So as Jews, what special tools
• 1:13:23
  do we have in in our in our tool kit, from our philosophy, from
• 1:13:27
  our beliefs that we can bring to the table to help people that
• 1:13:30
  are struggling with these issues?
• 1:13:32
  Yeah. I mean, listen, as a Jewish
• 1:13:34
  nation, I don't think there's any nation in the world that
• 1:13:38
  really understands or tries to understand and incorporate the
• 1:13:42
  concept of responsibility for one another and connectiveness
• 1:13:47
  or connectedness of one another. So for when has I'll speak
• 1:13:52
  about, you know, where Olam has said you by now that the world
• 1:13:57
  is constructed upon sensitivity, kindness.
• 1:14:02
  That's something that we emulate.
• 1:14:03
  That's something that we experiencing and we see it here
• 1:14:07
  in Israel, you know, even even when there's so many differences
• 1:14:10
  and sometimes that there is. So it becomes so argumentative
• 1:14:15
  and so passionately argumentative between different
• 1:14:18
  factions and different philosophies.
• 1:14:21
  But in the time of crisis, there is unity and there is
• 1:14:26
  sensitivity, and there's a sense that, you know, we need to look
• 1:14:29
  after one another in the end of the day.
• 1:14:32
  And I think that is an outstanding attribute that we as
• 1:14:37
  a people need to stay focused on as much as possible.
• 1:14:42
  There's nothing wrong with saying I agree to disagree.
• 1:14:44
  That's fine. And I agree that I don't
• 1:14:47
  understand you. That's fine.
• 1:14:49
  But we always have to remember in the back of our minds that we
• 1:14:52
  at least would like to value that understanding.
• 1:14:56
  We'd like to understand what we disagree about.
• 1:15:00
  And that requires that consideration.
• 1:15:03
  That has said, I saw a very interesting thing in this week's
• 1:15:08
  Torah portion in Palshot the A that we just read yesterday
• 1:15:12
  where it says, you know, at the shamaloke.
• 1:15:16
  I'm sorry, it's what the shamaloke Shamartha mitzvot
• 1:15:18
  shamaloke, the legend of the shamar bicolo, the, you know,
• 1:15:24
  keep the it's vote of Hashem of God, follow in his ways, fear
• 1:15:27
  him. But you know that that seems to
• 1:15:31
  be rather obvious, but it's the last two words of that puzzle of
• 1:15:35
  that verse where it says Ubo Tidbakkun, cling to him.
• 1:15:41
  Capital H. How do you cling to Hashem?
• 1:15:45
  You know, as we say Vatam had vacant mushem location, the
• 1:15:48
  Mahada Talmud asks the hello, you know, if you try to cling to
• 1:15:53
  God, his divinity, the fire spirit will consume you.
• 1:15:57
  So how do you do that? And has all the rabbis explained
• 1:16:00
  that, you know, just the way God looks for compassion and has it
• 1:16:04
  and kindness, we're supposed to emulate that.
• 1:16:07
  Nowhere in the Bible does it say in black and white, be kind, be
• 1:16:12
  compassionate. You know, it gives us different
• 1:16:14
  directives that revolve around it, but it doesn't really say
• 1:16:18
  you have to be a nice guy. How do you know you're supposed
• 1:16:21
  to be a nice guy? How do you know you're supposed
• 1:16:23
  to go beyond the Call of Duty? And the answer is from those
• 1:16:26
  words cling to God's divinity. The way we cling to him is to
• 1:16:30
  try to emulate the the medot, the attributes of compassion and
• 1:16:35
  mercy and understanding and sensitivity and care.
• 1:16:40
  And, you know, and that's really how we do it.
• 1:16:42
  And I think that that's something that is really, you
• 1:16:46
  know, unique to not to individuals because many, you
• 1:16:49
  know, many religions and many individuals have that.
• 1:16:52
  But to a nation, as a nation, as a collective, we are instructed
• 1:16:56
  to behave that way. And we have to look around us
• 1:16:59
  and we have to be aware more of what's going around us to be or
• 1:17:03
  to demonstrate that we want to have that compassion for one
• 1:17:06
  another. Someone, you know, we have that
• 1:17:09
  response and that sensitivity that demonstrates the next
• 1:17:12
  level, which is a revote, which is responsibility for one
• 1:17:15
  another, accountability for one another.
• 1:17:18
  Because in the end of the day, that's really what preserves
• 1:17:22
  individuals, what gives them reason to live, and what a lots
• 1:17:26
  us the opportunity to embrace that gift of life as individuals
• 1:17:31
  and as a nation. Richard Sosas, I believe he was
• 1:17:36
  a professor of psychology, wrote a few fantastic essays on the
• 1:17:40
  power of of social costs and reward in regards to
• 1:17:45
  religiosity. And he found, I mean, but this
• 1:17:48
  has been replicated many times by many different people, that
• 1:17:52
  people that have a religion are generally much healthier people
• 1:17:56
  psychologically because of community, right?
• 1:17:58
  And as Jews, we find community incredibly important.
• 1:18:02
  And, and I find the example of Shiva is such, is such a, it's
• 1:18:07
  like a quintess. It's almost the paradigm.
• 1:18:09
  You know, I could not think as a hedonistic person, if I were to,
• 1:18:13
  if I were to be 1, where I would least like to meet someone else
• 1:18:17
  if they were in a state of mourning, why would I want to be
• 1:18:20
  around such a But they're a downer.
• 1:18:22
  And we have this. It's a very strict practice,
• 1:18:24
  like when when someone is sitting Shiva, everyone really
• 1:18:27
  feels the the need to go and you're there just to show
• 1:18:31
  support in the person's most time, you know, biggest time of
• 1:18:34
  need. So absolutely, I think that is
• 1:18:36
  that is so, so crucial and. Also, I think I take it, I want
• 1:18:40
  to take it one more, one more step further.
• 1:18:41
  Rabbi, sorry, I didn't mean to interject.
• 1:18:43
  But not only that, but we, I've had to, you know, unfortunately,
• 1:18:48
  think about Shiva a lot and about mourning and, and sitting
• 1:18:52
  there with my other children as well, which is, you know,
• 1:18:54
  something that you never fathom and no one should ever have to
• 1:18:57
  experience. But one of the concepts I think
• 1:19:00
  of Shiva as well is it's not only to throw the throes of the
• 1:19:06
  community into that person, to comfort them.
• 1:19:10
  The first thing that a person wants to do, God forbid when
• 1:19:13
  they lose someone close to them, is to isolate.
• 1:19:17
  I I want to go to the Himalayas. I want to sit on a mountaintop
• 1:19:20
  by myself. I don't want to speak to anyone.
• 1:19:23
  I don't want to converse with anyone.
• 1:19:25
  I don't want to think about anyone.
• 1:19:26
  I want to just be there by myself and just, you know, mole
• 1:19:30
  in my own, you know, more my own sadness.
• 1:19:34
  OK. And what Shiva in Judaism does,
• 1:19:39
  it says you can, but ultimately you need to be thrown back.
• 1:19:44
  You need to be thrown back into the community.
• 1:19:48
  You need to understand that your responsibility, if you may
• 1:19:52
  ultimately is to find a way back into that society, and that's
• 1:19:58
  what Shiva is doing. So yes, Shiva is for the people
• 1:20:00
  who are coming to comfort, but it's also for the person who's
• 1:20:04
  being comforted to be reminded that eventually you need to find
• 1:20:09
  your way back into that society. You have a a social standing and
• 1:20:14
  a social responsibility to continue even with this tragic
• 1:20:18
  loss. Absolutely.
• 1:20:20
  Rabbi Hammer, is there any final remarks that you'd like to to
• 1:20:23
  give our listeners and to educate me on?
• 1:20:27
  I'll just say something that I say in every lecture.
• 1:20:30
  I always say, look, if you walk away from what I'm speaking to
• 1:20:33
  you about with just this one piece of information, Dayenu,
• 1:20:37
  and that would be the vast majority of people who die from
• 1:20:42
  suicide do not want to die. They want to live.
• 1:20:46
  They just forget how. So?
• 1:20:49
  Let's help remind them. Beautiful.
• 1:20:52
  You know Doctor Friedman. Unless you know Doctor Yakov
• 1:20:55
  Friedman. He's a good friend of mine.
• 1:20:57
  He was telling me once about told me a particular case.
• 1:21:01
  Perhaps I should mention it on the air, but I'm sure he changed
• 1:21:03
  over the details. But he he he said that from all
• 1:21:06
  the cases of people that attempted to commit suicide but
• 1:21:09
  failed, the response he says so far has always been the same of
• 1:21:14
  I want I wanted to live. I made a mistake.
• 1:21:17
  I shouldn't have done that. No one, no one was like, Oh my,
• 1:21:20
  my, my attempt at committing suicide.
• 1:21:22
  That was a good idea, You know, so absolutely, I, I will
• 1:21:26
  implore, no, I beg our, our listeners today to take these
• 1:21:31
  really important messages to heart.
• 1:21:33
  Rabbi Hammer, you shared so much wisdom with us and Gila's way,
• 1:21:36
  he has used this experience to really help so many people.
• 1:21:41
  This is an important topic. We all have the responsibility.
• 1:21:44
  Jew or Gentile, it doesn't matter.
• 1:21:46
  Religious, not religious, it does not matter to be at least
• 1:21:49
  aware of the topic and aware of how we can help the people
• 1:21:52
  around us. I invite every listener to go to
• 1:21:54
  Gila Way to support them in any way possible because they're
• 1:21:57
  doing great work. So while we're sitting on the
• 1:21:59
  couch and relaxing, they're out there, You know, you are out
• 1:22:02
  there at the Hammer saving lives, and we really appreciate
• 1:22:04
  that. The links we're going to be
• 1:22:06
  posted down below. And again, Rabbi Hammer, thank
• 1:22:08
  you so much for giving us your time today.
• 1:22:10
  Thank you very much. Everything is that should be in
• 1:22:13
  memory of our dear Gila, whose soul I am absolutely sure is
• 1:22:18
  part of our work and is an impetus for our work.
• 1:22:21
  And may her neshama rest in peace and receive comfort from
• 1:22:27
  what we're trying to do down here and connecting with her up
• 1:22:30
  there. I appreciate it.
• 1:22:32
  Thank you, Rabbi of. Course.