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Neckties are Utterly Ridiculous · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. We are so glad you're here. We're
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  Speaker 1: also going to welcome our super producer, mister Max Williams.
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  Speaker 2: I guess welcome back. We love you so much. He
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  Speaker 2: has a big podcast.
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  Speaker 3: You guys know how much I love neckties.
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  Speaker 2: You guys know I have so much. That's the talk about.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like curling your necktie. Oh god, now we have.
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  Speaker 4: To do you have a tie rack that would do
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  Speaker 4: you have enough ties that would necessitate an entire rack?
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  Speaker 2: An entire rack?
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  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Well that's uh, that's mister Noel.
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  Speaker 2: Brown, because I have one time.
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  Speaker 4: You know what, man, every time I have to put
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  Speaker 4: it on, I have to look up a YouTube video
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  Speaker 4: on how to tie it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not even joking. Only do a.
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  Speaker 3: Half windsor That's the only one I've learned how to
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  Speaker 3: do off a memory.
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  Speaker 1: You guys don't know the different knots, full windsor or bust.
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  Speaker 1: For me, guys, I'm Ben Bullen. We are We are
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  Speaker 1: following up on a conversation we had earlier, longtime ridiculous historians.
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  Speaker 1: We're you know, we're no better than anyone else. We're
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  Speaker 1: not some sort of uh moral nor intellectual signposts for
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  Speaker 1: the world but for yourself. But we do know, I
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  Speaker 1: would say, we do have a pretty good spidery sense
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  Speaker 1: for things that seem normal yet are ridiculous, And that
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  Speaker 1: is why we're doing this episode about neckties.
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  Speaker 4: Well, when you give it a little extra thought, it
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  Speaker 4: does start to resemble some weird future fashion thing that
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  Speaker 4: to the time traveler, the unsuspecting time traveler, just makes
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  Speaker 4: no sense.
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  Speaker 2: Like I'm trying to think of an example Inmoli Man,
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  Speaker 2: you don't know how to use the three seashells.
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  Speaker 4: That is ben you mind reader, that is exactly that specifically,
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  Speaker 4: and the flavor of that. In science fiction, there's always like,
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  Speaker 4: you know, some weird like cylindrical hat or something like that.
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  Speaker 4: It's shaped like a you know, polygon or something like.
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  Speaker 4: That's not what cylindrical means, but you know what I'm
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  Speaker 4: saying it does. It's not functional. It's just a little
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  Speaker 4: bit of an odd choice that clearly came from somewhere, but.
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  Speaker 1: Where but where's Yeah, there's it's almost functioning like flare.
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  Speaker 1: Generally speaking, the necktie today is decorative. It is ornamental
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  Speaker 1: rather than functional. Think about it. A tie goes around
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  Speaker 1: your neck, but it's not going to keep you warm
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  Speaker 1: the way a scarf would. It's not a good it's
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  Speaker 1: not a great napkin. It's not a great mop nor
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  Speaker 1: great towel. You could do a tourniquet if you had to,
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  Speaker 1: You really could.
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  Speaker 4: You could put it around your head if you wanted
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  Speaker 4: to go full office Rambo mode. If I'm not mistaken,
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  Speaker 4: I believe Young Gizmo did that in Gremlins too, the
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  Speaker 4: new batch.
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  Speaker 2: He wore a neck tie at his head and.
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  Speaker 4: Was shooting those pesky gremlins with a paper clip bow
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  Speaker 4: and arrow with flaming match sticks.
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  Speaker 2: You know what to neat about a tie, though?
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  Speaker 4: Is a tie not only is it an accoutrement or
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  Speaker 4: a decorative, ornamental piece of kit itself. You can even
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  Speaker 4: decorate the decorative thing with like tie pins.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, anyone's wondering clipping ties? Fifteen ties, fifteen ties.
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  Speaker 5: We were waiting for the number. I've already given my number,
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  Speaker 5: and it's embarrassing. So you guys win by default.
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  Speaker 1: Oh boy, I've got a I'm not going to do
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  Speaker 1: show until here, But I have inherited several very old ties.
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  Speaker 2: Ties.
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  Speaker 1: It's okay where them at fancy occasions, because that's what
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  Speaker 1: a tie is supposed to tell you in modern day civilization.
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  Speaker 1: If you see someone walking around they got a tie on,
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  Speaker 1: it's as though there's it's like having.
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  Speaker 2: A fancy watch.
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  Speaker 1: It's like they're saying, look at me, world, I'm doing
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  Speaker 1: important stuff today.
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  Speaker 4: It's like, look at me, world, I have enough money
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  Speaker 4: that I can invest in this stupid thing around my neck.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I love the idea of a black tie affair. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: It really is the mark of the fanciest of engagements
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  Speaker 4: or dinners or parties.
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  Speaker 2: Sure.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me to all of the one time
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  Speaker 1: I got punked so hard by our buddy Miles Gray
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  Speaker 1: over at Daily Zeitgeist because I said I didn't understand
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  Speaker 1: fancy wristwatches. I said, it's either money laundering after a
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  Speaker 1: certain threshold, or it's just a status symbol. In a
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  Speaker 1: world where everyone has smartphones, your wristwatch just says look
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  Speaker 1: at me, I could tell time twice.
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  Speaker 2: That's true.
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  Speaker 4: I will say, as I've gotten a little older and
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  Speaker 4: I've started to maybe get a little more interested in
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  Speaker 4: some of the finer things in life, whether I own
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  Speaker 4: them or not, I do appreciate the engineering that goes
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  Speaker 4: into a really really high end wristwatch. And similarly with
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  Speaker 4: like a nice, really nice necktie. You know, it is
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  Speaker 4: not engineering exactly, but the fabric, the weave, the knits,
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  Speaker 4: you know, the pattern, the crazy pattern like it damn flashes.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is crazy too, So let's get into it.
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  Speaker 2: All right.
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  Speaker 1: The idea of tying stuff around your neck as a
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  Speaker 1: flex is surprisingly old. If you go back to ancient
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  Speaker 1: civilizations far before Seville Row or Savile Row, you can
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  Speaker 1: you can see that China, Roam, the Egyptians. These people
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  Speaker 1: were rock and stuff around their neck and it was
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  Speaker 1: not functional. It was a status symbol.
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  Speaker 4: It also wasn't like a typical blinged out neck piece,
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  Speaker 4: you know, a necklace.
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  Speaker 2: That is a different class of accoutrement.
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  Speaker 4: We are specifically talking about carefully tied pieces of cloth
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  Speaker 4: wrapped around one's neck. Since the item is only shown
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  Speaker 4: in images of Chinese soldiers terra cotta sculptures rather from
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  Speaker 4: the second century BCE, it did appear to be either
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  Speaker 4: a sign of rank perhaps or some sort of like
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  Speaker 4: like you'd see a general wearing those those metals on
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  Speaker 4: their chest or whatever, or the epaulets, is that what
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  Speaker 4: they're called, the things.
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  Speaker 1: On the shoulder ail eplets.
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  Speaker 4: Mm hmm, so yeah, it would seem to be an
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  Speaker 4: indication of one's status within a military organization.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we see this again as well. In ancient Rome,
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  Speaker 1: a world away, they had a strip of linen that
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  Speaker 1: they called a sudarium and you worred around the neck
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  Speaker 1: or sometimes in the early days, you tied it around
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  Speaker 1: the wrist, as was the fashion at the time, and
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  Speaker 1: it was dude's rocking this. It meant the same thing,
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  Speaker 1: some sort of exemplary performance. In ancient Egypt, they would
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  Speaker 1: take a similar kind of cloth, they would adorn it
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  Speaker 1: with precious stones, and pharaohs would wear it.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, Archaeologists have in fact found what they believed to
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  Speaker 4: be some sort of I guess, protective or magical talismen
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  Speaker 4: referred to as the knot of isis wrapped around the
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  Speaker 4: necks of mummies, meant to be some sort of protection
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  Speaker 4: in the afterlife. It is called this because it resembles
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  Speaker 4: a knot that would have been used to secure garments
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  Speaker 4: worn by Egyptian gods, and we're talking about knots.
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  Speaker 2: It's really hard not to us keep it. We're keeping it.
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  Speaker 4: It was accidentally on purpose, you know, not to think
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  Speaker 4: about the way neckties are tied in various fashions.
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  Speaker 1: And as our pals Ven Rafael Schneider points out writing
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  Speaker 1: for Gentlemen's Gazette, certain members of tribes over in Oceania
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  Speaker 1: also wore neck adornments. It's it's impossible to establish the
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  Speaker 1: specific period of time when the first person began to
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  Speaker 1: wrap knotted fabric around their necks, but it's pretty evident
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  Speaker 1: that neckware of some sort has a tradition, a global tradition.
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  Speaker 1: It's not just in the Americas, it's not just in
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  Speaker 1: Western Europe. Across the world, various cultures, neck adornment of
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  Speaker 1: some sort was seen as a mark of distinction. To
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  Speaker 1: your point, now that maybe distinction of military office or
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  Speaker 1: simply royalty. It is for the fancy people.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, a sign of opulence, you know, again, a bit
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  Speaker 4: of a flex, like a fancy wristwatch.
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  Speaker 2: There it is.
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  Speaker 1: And we know, we were looking into this together. We
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  Speaker 1: know the ancestor of what we call the modern necktie,
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  Speaker 1: of which Max has how many Max seventeen seventeen.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's right. I remember these things.
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  Speaker 1: It's important data, right, Like when we go to a
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  Speaker 1: friend's nice house and we immediately look up Zillow.
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  Speaker 2: God, people love it. When you do that, people love it.
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  Speaker 1: So the ancestor of the modern tie goes back probably
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  Speaker 1: to the sixteen hundreds. It's a story that is ridiculously
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  Speaker 1: rife with mercenaries, war, and you'll love this our returning characters,
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  Speaker 1: Noel Brown, it's the Macaroni's.
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  Speaker 2: Right, we called them that.
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  Speaker 4: But wasn't that referring to like the high fashion of
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  Speaker 4: the Italians?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, it was referring to doodle dandy song.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, what would be called Dandy's If you if you
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  Speaker 1: look back to the story of why people wear ties now,
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  Speaker 1: then you're really looking at Croatian mercenaries in France under
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  Speaker 1: the Sun King.
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  Speaker 4: And of course Louis the fourteenth, they employed Croatian mercenaries
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  Speaker 4: during various battles.
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  Speaker 2: As folks of their statue are wont to do.
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  Speaker 4: These mercenaries wore decorative scarves or knotted neckerchiefs as part
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  Speaker 4: of their military kit their uniforms. The demarcation of officers
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  Speaker 4: and rank was determined by the quality of the fabric.
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  Speaker 4: The finer the fabric, the higher the rank. The coarser
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  Speaker 4: the fabric, the lower the rank.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're in the trenches, you might have burlap
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  Speaker 1: on your neck, right, maybe died somehow, But if you were,
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  Speaker 1: if your officer class, then you have better fabric and
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  Speaker 1: probably better patterns approaching damn flash. The front line soldier neckerchiefs.
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  Speaker 1: And I love the word neckerchiefs too, almost as much
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  Speaker 1: as I like cravat, which we're about to get to. Yes, yes, yes,
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  Speaker 1: with the croats, with the Croatians. These neckerchiefs are knotted
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  Speaker 1: around the soldier's necks and they have a function. They're
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  Speaker 1: meant to hold up capes the ends of the cloth.
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  Speaker 1: This basically this cape fastener. They're arranged in a bow.
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  Speaker 1: If you're a fancy boy, they get finished with a
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  Speaker 1: tuft or a tassel.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: If you're a regular dude, you just tie it off
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  Speaker 1: and hope your cape does like, does its job and
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  Speaker 1: stays on.
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  Speaker 4: Ben, I propose we bring back capes just in regular
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  Speaker 4: walking around type of situations.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was talking a couple.
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  Speaker 4: Of the moves you can do the way you can
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  Speaker 4: kind of whip it in front of your face in
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  Speaker 4: a show of a mystique.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can do a Dracula, you can do the shadow.
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  Speaker 1: You can also do a beautiful entrance and exit. Talking
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  Speaker 1: with our pal Hally Fry a few years ago, I
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  Speaker 1: kind of asked her about that because she also did
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  Speaker 1: a show for a while called Dressed, which is all
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  Speaker 1: about the history of fashion.
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  Speaker 4: Well, and she's also she literally makes all of our
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  Speaker 4: own clothes, that is true, and they're great, mainly Star
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  Speaker 4: Wars themes or Haunted Mansion themes.
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  Speaker 1: So a nice inspirational thing. This tells us just how
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  Speaker 1: great our good friend Holly is. A nice inspirational anecdote
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  Speaker 1: about her. She hit me back and she said, bin,
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  Speaker 1: just be the change. Just start wearing a cape. And
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  Speaker 1: I said, I'm too short, and she said that's what's
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  Speaker 1: stopping you, your ideas and your preconception. So Holly also
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  Speaker 1: obviously rocks capes. Unanimously agree.
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  Speaker 4: I have a bit of a gray stripe in my
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  Speaker 4: hair that I think is kind of cool, and a
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  Speaker 4: lot of barbers seem to think it's cool.
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  Speaker 2: Holly thought it was really cool and thought.
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  Speaker 4: I shouldn't stop there, and she brought me some silver
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  Speaker 4: hair dye to the office so that I could like
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  Speaker 4: lean into it even further. I'm like, but Holly, it's
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  Speaker 4: already silver. She's like, no, no, you can plus that.
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  Speaker 2: Make it gray.
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  Speaker 1: Streak up, you bad boy. I can hear it in
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  Speaker 1: her voice, make it pop. So these scarves were in
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  Speaker 1: addition to being cape fasteners, all right, that's the spoiler,
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  Speaker 1: that's the origin story. In addition to that function, they
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  Speaker 1: were known as kind of branding or uniform colorful patterns
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  Speaker 1: and designs. Again, not as intricate as obviously the designs
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  Speaker 1: that Dan flashes over at the Shops by the Creek,
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  Speaker 1: but still flashy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Indeed, these colorful scarves did, in fact at this point
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  Speaker 4: have somewhat of a function, but because you know, they
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  Speaker 4: were meant to secure another garment, but the king was
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  Speaker 4: more impressed with the fashion sense that they kind of represented,
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  Speaker 4: and Louis the thirteenth decided he was going to co
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  Speaker 4: opt this fashion, these neckerchiefs, and require them to be
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  Speaker 4: worn at royal events. This is almost like the very
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  Speaker 4: first introduction of the black tie affairs.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, well done.
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  Speaker 1: This is the This is crazy because you know, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of fashion trends come top down, some come bottom up,
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  Speaker 1: but a lot come top down. And the people of France,
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  Speaker 1: starting with the richie Riches, first called this successory a
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  Speaker 1: crow at croat after the Croatian mercenaries known to wear them.
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  Speaker 4: Would a crow at be a single Croatian? Yes, but
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  Speaker 4: specially different, Yes, that's right. So it is a fun
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  Speaker 4: example that we see in this historic game of telephone
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  Speaker 4: that we're always looking at, where a mispronunciation or just
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  Speaker 4: something being a little too hard for the average folks
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  Speaker 4: to say results in a word becoming a different word
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  Speaker 4: just for convenience sake, and then that word is the
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  Speaker 4: one that kind of just takes off.
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  Speaker 1: So the the French public is calling this the crow at,
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  Speaker 1: and then it becomes, to your point, it becomes corrupted
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  Speaker 1: to la cravat or cravat or cravat in English exactly.
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  Speaker 4: And over the next couple of years, this fashion trend
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  Speaker 4: absolutely dominated across France and then eventually spread to the
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  Speaker 4: rest of Europe. There was a bit of a function
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  Speaker 4: still at this time. It was in fact a little
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  Speaker 4: more comfortable than what we know historically as the heavily
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  Speaker 4: starched linen ruffs that you know we're talking about, oh
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  Speaker 4: you know, yeah, the big round thing that goes all
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  Speaker 4: the way around the neck and you'll often see in
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  Speaker 4: fancy portraits of royalty. It is absolutely absurd looking. But
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  Speaker 4: that's another example of a thing out of context. It
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  Speaker 4: just looks idiotic and uncomfortable. But for whatever reason, it
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  Speaker 4: was considered super cool and the height of trendiness.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, look at me. I can hire someone to fold
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  Speaker 1: by collars for me. Look at all the folds. That
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  Speaker 1: was their first day of flashes. But the so the
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  Speaker 1: cravat is cool because it's still showing off your neck
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  Speaker 1: flex but it's way looser, it's way less rep than
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  Speaker 1: these linen ruffs. And the cravats become more popular with
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  Speaker 1: the wealthy. They also become more and more intricate. They're
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  Speaker 1: increasingly elaborate. They're incorporating lace to their cravats, sophisticated knots,
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  Speaker 1: all all this stuff. Like if you looked at the
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  Speaker 1: fanciest ties in this period of time, you would think
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  Speaker 1: who else would wear this other than mister Worldwide, by
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  Speaker 1: which we mean Pitbull of course.
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  Speaker 2: And if you can picture it too, they did have
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  Speaker 2: a lot.
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  Speaker 4: I think I was maybe a sort of misspoke when
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  Speaker 4: I described the rough There certainly were different types of ruffs.
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  Speaker 4: The ones that I'm picturing are the ones that would
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  Speaker 4: go around in like a circle, like encircling your neck
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  Speaker 4: like a frickin planet. But then the other kinds of
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  Speaker 4: roughs were much more the very fancy linen collars that
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  Speaker 4: would get stuffed into your shirt. The cravat was just
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  Speaker 4: a little bit more of a simplified version of that.
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  Speaker 4: But early cravats were intended to kind of be stuffed
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  Speaker 4: into the front.
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  Speaker 2: Of the shirt.
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  Speaker 4: Which I don't know this for sure, Ben, but I
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  Speaker 4: imagine is where the expression stuff shirt comes from, when
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  Speaker 4: you're referring to.
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  Speaker 2: A fancy boy who's like a little bit up his
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  Speaker 2: own butt.
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  Speaker 1: Interesting. I haven't looked into that etymology. Please find us
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: on Ridiculous Historians on Facebook. We'd love to hear about this.
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  Speaker 4: This has been Nola's wildly speculative etymology corner.
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  Speaker 2: We do know a couple of things.
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  Speaker 1: We do know that the cravat was not just a
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  Speaker 1: craze in France via Croatia. We know the cravat spread
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  Speaker 1: to other parts of Europe. When Charles the Second over
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  Speaker 1: in England, he's known for a few things. When he
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  Speaker 1: encountered the cravat and won the throne, he was all
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  Speaker 1: about this. So again, the king is always the taste maker, right,
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  Speaker 1: That's why Cathilian Spanish still has a manufactured lisp.
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  Speaker 2: Right Bathdona.
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  Speaker 1: So over the course of the next century, the cravat
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  Speaker 1: moves with the tantrums of empire.
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  Speaker 4: So that's great empire. I mean, it's very clear everyone
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  Speaker 4: totally understands what this means. This is about the monarch
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  Speaker 4: kicking and screaming and pounding their tiny fists and feet
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  Speaker 4: on the ground because they have to have what they
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  Speaker 4: want and if you don't give it to them, then
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  Speaker 4: you will be beheaded.
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  Speaker 2: And there we go.
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  Speaker 1: That's how the cravat catches on in Germany, and then
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  Speaker 1: of course our friends across the Atlantic, the English colonies,
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  Speaker 1: they start rocking this flex as well. At this point
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  Speaker 1: there are numerous variations on the idea of the cravat,
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  Speaker 1: but still they don't look like the relatively slim modern
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  Speaker 1: ties we see today. As a matter of fact, as
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  Speaker 1: we know here Nol people didn't even call them ties
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  Speaker 1: for a while.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it's sort of like the way you might call
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: a particular style of hat, the stetson, you know, or
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: something like that.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: They were. It's almost a kind of form of branding.
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: So you had a variation of a tie that Louis
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: the fourteenth was quite fond of called steinkirk.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: That's the steinkirk.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: It is, Yeah, sporting a single knot and a much
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: narrower shape, beginning to resemble what we know today is
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: the modern necktie.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: This is where we see the setup for the stars
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: of the song Yankee Doodle Dandy stuck a feather in
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: his cap and called it macaroni.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: That is referring to the folks we mentioned before, the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: sort of metro sexuals of their time, the taste makers,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: these young men who were fashion aficionados. I guess we
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: would call them clothe horses, right. They started in the
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: late seventeen hundreds tying their neck wear in increasingly difficult
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: and intricate knots and styles which were sort of like
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: a code, so you could see someone and know their identifications,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: et cetera. Just like how honestly, like how punk dudes
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: have different patches on their jackets.
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: Of course, yeah, people in you know, motorcycle gangs, yes, as.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Well as well everybody in a motorcycle gang. Thanks for
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: tuning into the show.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: Can we add too that the whole term of macaroni
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: it was it wasn't just referring to Italians. I mean,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: I guess you know that we do also often think
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: of Italian culture as being very high fashion as well.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: But it was a little bit more of a catch
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: all term for But it was kind of a pejorative,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: right Like, it wasn't a compliment. It was referring to
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: people that dressed so fashionably, you know, in the styles
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: of the time, that they kind of looked ridiculous.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the idea.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: The idea was, Yeah, calling someone a macaroni was not
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: a comp It was saying, look at this fet fancy boy. Basically,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: there maybe was even a little bit of veiled homophobia
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: in there. There was an implication for sure. And we
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: see still the cravat or the idea of decorative neckware, nakerchiefs.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: He keeps getting adopted by powerful people. In the early
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, this guy named Napoleon, who is most famous
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: for a cameo appearance in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: He did some other stuff and he was he you know,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: he got punked by a gang of rabbits one time.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: He also, during the Battle of Waterloo, rocked a cravat,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: And you had this great, great point, Noel, about the
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: origin of a black tie event. It all goes back
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: to a young dandy named Bo Brummel.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: Bo Brummel helped to really solidify the way we think
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: of tying a tie or a cravat. He was a
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: young hip fashion icon and was a big fan of
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: wearing a very complicatedly tied cravat. But when he did it,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: it was almost like a magic trick.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: He had this style and flare with which he was
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: able to tie his tie that really turned heads.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and his style was expensive in terms of time,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: just like when you see someone on Instagram or TikTok
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: saying here's my guide to how you do this.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: Thing, however, or like a cooking show where it's like
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: there's always like the Great mitchellin websketch that's making fun
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: of Gordon Ramsey, where he's like, you didn't even show
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: the step where you did the potato thing.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: As far as I'm concerned, it might as well be magic.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Locally, gradings simply cooked exactly Shakespeare's just would in order.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: That's a great I'm not just good at this as
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: you are. Will you stay? Oh gosh, what agreed? Will
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: you stay forever? Yeah? I'm sorry.
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: Please watch this, guys, just type in Mitchell and weblook.
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: It is very very funny.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Honestly, type in Mitchell, weblook and just nuts. And so
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the issue here, or the I would say the allure,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: is that Bo Brummel is able to ask people not
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: to pay for expensive materials necessarily, but to pay with
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: their time. So his style becomes a matter of technique
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: rather than a matter of finance, which means middle class
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and upper class folks alike can say, oh, yeah, I know, Bo,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: here's my fancy, fancy thing. And because of this, now
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: we see the evolution of the cravats from a decorative
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: neck dressing to a very intricate thing. It's a statement
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: of ability, not just a statement of socioeconomic status.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: Which is neat because it does kind of level the
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: playing field many ties today. You would really have to
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: look very hard, or like flip it around and see
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: the label to tell whether it was in fact a
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: fancy tie or not. But what really does the trick
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: and sets it off It's part of an outfit is
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: how well that half windsor is tied and how well
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: spaced it was, Because again I have to look up
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: a YouTube video every time and I still barely get
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: it right. It really does require a little bit of
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: precision to get it looking really sharp and have the
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: right length, have the square of the not perfectly spaced.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Hit your gig line. Yeah, this is all true. Women
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: go crazy for a sharp dressed man. We're also shouting
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: out our buddy bo Brummel here because Noel he is
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: the guy who started the trend of wearing black evening wear.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: He is the black tie event guy.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: He is. Indeed, I knew we were going to get there. Yeah.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: Pamphlet was actually circulated called neck Cloth. It sounds kind
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: of like a death metal band name a little bit.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: I could picture catch you picture of this word when
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: you're looking at it on paper written in that crazy,
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: unintelligible death metal script.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I could also see it being a neckclothitania. I could
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: see being a HP Lovecraft monster like totally lou It
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: is the real title. It's a pamphlet that comes out
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: in eighteen eighteen, and it has fourteen ways to tie
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: a cravat. It probably possibly leads to the common phrase
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: we used to describe this stuff today, the.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Tie, because it's so funny and I never would have
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: thought about this, Ben, But the tie. It refers more
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: to the act than the object.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the verb.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Right, because as as the not becomes more important than
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the material used to create the knots, as as that
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you know, inversion or inflection point hits, people are more
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: now referring to the act of the tie. I don't
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: care if it's made of silk or you know, a
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: common cotton thread. I want to see how you rolled it.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Did you do a mathematical did you do the American?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: The Irish? The male coach? These are all knots that
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: are in the reverse Calgary, Yeah, all the good ones.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all the good ones. Did you get did you
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: get it? Doggye style? But it is.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: But it is interesting though, because it does sort of
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: like it's a different kind of exclusivity. You know that's
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: not based on it's based on kind of like being
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: in the know rather than you know, necessarily having a
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: ton of money.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's it's arguably merit meritocratic, right, if you
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: can figure out how to tie the knot. Then someone
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: may say, you know what kind of respect you all
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: fabric but I am in awe of your tact. Yes,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: you know techability, you all noting abilities and for a while, yeah,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: obviously this was one of those why would you do
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: it flexes. Just like most people don't own a yacht today,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: until the eighteen sixties, most people didn't own a fancy
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: cravat or a tie. We know that by eighteen forty
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: thing people had started saying tie instead of cravats, But
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: until like it took twenty years. Until the eighteen sixties,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: the tie was handmade, right fashioned from muslin or lace
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: or linen, and then it had to be constantly laundered
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and pressed. That's usually going to be done by servants.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: So only only the fancy boys wore it because these
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: things were and the keyster when it came to upkeep,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: it was a status symbol. It said I can hire
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: people to do beat me. Here Max, it said I
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: can hire people to.
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: Do for me, and it remains the status similar to
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: this day. In business, for example, you know there are
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: professions where if you're not wearing a suit and tie
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: to work, you are not considered professional and you will
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: get dinged, you know, and possibly even told to go
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: home and change. There are certain restaurants, for example, high
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: fine dining restaurants, where they will have a suit and
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: tie on, you know, like to loan out to folks
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: who dare show up, you know, not dress properly.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's true. The lunar suit for you.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: We do have the Industrial Revolution to thank or accuse
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: for the popularity of the necktie the late eighteen hundreds
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: in the West, working professionals became increasingly aware of how
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: they looked, to your point, when they're out in public,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: and the tie provided a way to mark their appearance
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: as an individual of note, similar to certain hats. So
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: more and more men in the middle class are dressing
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: for success. They want to be upwardly mobile. They want
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: to have a tie, a nice hat, a nice suit,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: perhaps a see your sucker, And the industries of the
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: world answer them. The sewing machine is invented, the assembly
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: line is invented. It is easier now at this point
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: in time to buy a tie because they're no longer handmade.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: You can go to a store and they may have.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Fifty ties, they may have three different varieties of ties.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Find the one that.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Fits for you. This is increased availability, continued popularity. Uh,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the fanciest dandies in London or wearing this, which makes
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: them taste makers. People are following them along and they
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: just keep getting more and more complicated with the knots.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I think there was like an arms race. Sure, fanciest
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: necktie knot?
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, ben nodding is in its own right kind
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: of a form of technology.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and really quickly.
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: But am I the only one that whenever I hear seersucker,
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: it just sounds like an insult to me.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: That's funny.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I do like it is nowhere where you could call
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: someone a seersucker. We should do that next time we're
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: in a different country together.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: We mentioned the American and the Irish, the male coach,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. Excuse me, we should also mention
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the four in hand not one of the most well
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: known conventional tie knots today. It was created in the
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. Why did it get the name.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: The four in hand being better than one in bush? Yes, yes,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: if I'm not mistaken now, the knot actually resembled the
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: way a driver would tie the reins to their carriage
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: pull or the harnet.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I guess what would you call it?
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: The yoke or whatever that was attached to the four
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: horses drawing the carriage.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: So the name did feel kind of like a natural fit. Yeah, yeah,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: because it looked like that. Think four in hand, four
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: horses in hand. There's another theory that it's named specifically
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: after a famous carriage driving club in London, the fore
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: in Hand, and that they loved the branding and helped
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: popularize the knot. This is where we see another neck
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: accessory come into play, the Ascot name for the Royal
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Ascot race.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: And then of course kiss my Royal Ascot.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: And then of course the problematic ugh loved by some,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: hated by others, the bow tie.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a it's a vibe, you know, it is
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: definitely a vibe, But it is it has come to
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: occupy a different kind of echelon.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I guess of you know, fashion.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Choice policy wonks, Kentucky Derby types.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: I had to I tell you, Nation of Islam, you know,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: really popularly good with with their with their bow ties.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Did I tell you I had to wear a bow tie?
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Recently?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Forced you to do this? Why did they hurt you.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: You know, I had that Knoxville thing, so, oh, that's right.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I had to wear a bow tie for a thing.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: But Knoxville does seem like bow tie country.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, shout out to our our Paltillan fagate.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: It was to see dandy.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Well, in my defense, I do know how to tie
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a bow tie, so I wasn't wearing a clip on,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: which is apparently the fashion.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Sin really, oh Sin, thank you?
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah, because you can tell, you can tell,
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: you could always tell for sure.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: So in the nineteen twenties we know that a New
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: York tie maker named Jesse Langsdorf changed the game because
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: he figured out you could cut fabric at an angle
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: and then sew it together in three segments, which allowed
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: a tie to go back to its original shape after
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: you curled it and nodded it around your neck, which
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: meant now you didn't have to have a team of
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: servants to continually launder or impress your tie. Makes it
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: even more accessible for people around the world.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: Well, not to mention that Langdorf's tie, the fabric of
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: it was very I guess, springing, and it would kind
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: of retain its shape a lot better than the previous
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: types of fabric where you would have to press.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Them and launder them in order for them to keep
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: their shapes.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there were other moments of evolution along the way.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: The duke of Windsor created the windsor not.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: But is there a full windsor I'm sorry, I was
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: joking earlier about half joking. Half Windsor is the one
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: we know that I think is the most popular, kind
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: of basic not for a neck tie.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: But is there a full windsor a full I don't
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: think there is. There is one hundred.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my friend Vick's big fan of that one. Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: Basically the way he just grabs it to me is
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: just another It's another rap.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's another go round.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: You just need you have to have for another lap
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: around the tree, exactly.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: You just need a longer tie to do it you
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: can't do with a standard tie.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we also know.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: We also know that ties in bright colors and celebratory
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: dan flash patterns were introduced in the post World War
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: two boom. They're still kind of popular. Nineteen fifties. You
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: see the skinny tie as well.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I like the skinny tie. I think it's kind of
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: kind of kind of hip.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: I prefer skinny tie. David Lynch is a skinny tie guy.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: That's what I got with me.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the men in black, they get skinny ties, you
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. David Duchovny as a fox molder
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: skinny tie.
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: I just find them to be sharp and a little
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: less old fashioned looking, you know.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because what we're talking about is in contrast to
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies extra large ties. They were called kipper ties,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: you know. They're the ones that almost look like a
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: clown would wear.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: One under very cartoonist yes, yeah.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: And today there are hundreds of other interesting things about ties,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: you know. The it's a work in progress, it continues today.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: It does not serve a physical function. It serves a
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: socioeconomic function. And they're all sorts of arbitrary rules about
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: where and why you should wear a tie a specific way,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: why you shouldn't, what is appropriate, what's not, what's not.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: I think they're thank you for that, thank you for
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: that rimshot.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Max. Can you hear my headshake?
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: I could hear your eyes and I'm moving air around
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: with MYO.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: So that's our that's our show. That is the history
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: of neckties. We solved it.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: Can I give you prop can I give you props though,
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: real quick, Ben for finding a copy of this neckcloth
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Titania pamphlet. Uh, and it does have just these lovely
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: little diagrams. Let's see what do we have here, I mean, zoom, man,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: We've got.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: The Oriental that age so well.
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the Napoleon, which is a little bit more of
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: like an old timey kind.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Of just draped. It looks super lazy. Yeah, very I agree.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: Uh, the American, which is sort of just tied in
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: the middle, and none of these really outside of the
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: what is I can't read the text because it's all
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: written in very flourishy handwriting and it's a little bit
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: of a low rest graphic. But very few of these
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: tie methods resemble the modern neck tie, except for this
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: sixth one down, which again I can't read it. It's
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: like the mail coach or the mail coach, okay, mail
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: coach that no one has that hanging straight down. But
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: most of these other ones look more like you got
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: a bow tied around your neck.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: And they all look like they're turtlenecks for some reason.
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, or like really high collar kind of you know,
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: the starch high collars.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And then at the bottom.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: It shows you the way of folding, and I guess
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: to preserve the shape for when you're storing it and
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: when you're done with your fancy So.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Weird, dude.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Also, do people wear ties with turtlenecks?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: That would be that's like putting a hat on a hat.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: That suspenders plus a belt. Isn't exactly It seems a
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: little unga potchka. To quote my my favorite podcast, The
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: dough Boys.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah we know, still neckties showed no signs of abaiting
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: and popularity. They're the most famous gift given on Father's Day.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: Here ordering on lazy right, Like I like getting well
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: into the territory of lace.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I think so too.
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: Unless it's a tradition and your father truly does just
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: love ties, and you're you're picking out something very clever
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: that they would enjoy, he might just put up with it.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: To jump in here real quick. It is actually funny
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: because now at the Williams household, it's much more likely
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: for my father to give me a tie than the
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: other way around.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Good turnment thing tabled, Yeah, perfect, Like the office, get
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: your numbers up.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Of just yelling about numbers there are there. It is
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: a numbers game. Then it is a numbers game.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: One other thing we should say before we end. There
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: is a word, and this will help our pals at
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: the Williams Compound. There is a word for people who
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: collect ties. Gravitologist.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Give me that that, give me that necktie.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: I must snatch off your necktie in my collection because
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: I'm a gramatologist.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Sounds hilarious.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: It sounds like something we would have made up.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Just hang it out. Have we talked about uluologists oolologists.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: It's it's an egg thing. It's like someone who studies eggs.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: I learned it from this game that I love and
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: I've become obsessed with and it's changed my relationship with birds.
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: It's called Wingspan, and there's a particular type of bonus
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: card that involves collecting lots of eggs in particular habitats
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: in the game.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: And it is the Ula Lagist card.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Oh fascinating. Okay, I was thinking of ula elation, but
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: that's definitely a different thing.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: This is cool.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I look forward to playing Wingspan with you in the future,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: and folks, we look forward to hearing your crazy necktie stories. Yes,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: the current most expensive deck tie in the world cost
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: around two hundred and twenty thousand dollars by a new
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: It's got diamonds on it as the main thing. And
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: if we've said anything off, perhaps it's because we are
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: translating from a non English language. If that is the case,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: if that is funny or interesting to you, join yeah,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: join us later this week, because what are we doing.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: We're doing a history of Well it's gonna be probably
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: one in a series. I don't think we've started this
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: series yet, history of Weird and Ridiculous mistracks.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, then we're back in maybe big.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams, big big
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister, as well as
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Eves Jeff Goat. Christopher hasiotis here in spirit.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: Can we just say huge congratulations to Jonathan Strickland aka
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: the quist for I guess sixteen years of the podcast
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: tech Stuff, and he is going to be stepping down
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: from that show soon and I think we're gonna be
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: doing some guesting on his last episodes of tech Stuff,
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: so be on the lookout for that.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: We'll let you know when those are coming. But love
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: that guy, Hate that guy, Love that guy?
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Jonathan, answer my text anyway, so big big
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: thanks too, of course, aj Bahamas, Jacob's big big thanks
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: to Gabe Luzier, The Rude Dude's over at Ridiculous Crime
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: and Noel big big thanks to you, my guy.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Oh Gus. Well bet we'll see you next time, folks.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows