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Hagerty's 2026 Bull Market List with John Wiley · That Car Show

• 0:00
  Our 10th prediction of the for 2026 that was at Pontiac Aztec
• 0:03
  will be worth $100,000. Tonight on That Car Show, we're
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  joined by John Wiley, Hegerty's Director of Evaluation
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  Analytics. John truly knows his stuff, with
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  real insight into why cars are worth what they are and what the
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  future holds for enthusiasts like us.
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  Before we jump in, do us a quick favor, Hit, follow or subscribe
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  on your podcast platform of choice.
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  And if you've got a minute more, please leave us a review.
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  Those small clicks make a huge difference for the show.
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  It's a fascinating conversation with Haggerty's John Wiley, and
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  it starts now on that car show. Hey, it's that car show.
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  It's me and Lindsay tonight, and they're joined by a guest.
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  If I wanted to have on for a long time, you've almost
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  certainly heard of Haggerty's bull market list.
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  It does good around Tonight's guest is the guy behind it.
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  John Wiley is Haggerty's director of Valuation Analytics,
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  which means he can shed some light on what exactly is going
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  on in today's market and why you cannot afford a Porsche 964
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  anymore. Also, our pal, our mutual pal,
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  Trent Abbott, insisted that we have him on.
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  So welcome to that car show, John.
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  Yeah. Thanks, Fran.
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  Appreciate being on here. Really glad to have you here.
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  You know, whenever the bull market list is announced, I
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  always try to guess what's on it before I click.
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  I usually get a couple right. But these aren't just gut
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  feelings. There's real science behind it.
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  And in fact, you have a master's degree in financial mathematics
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  from the University of Chicago. So tell us about the methodology
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  here and what all goes. Into sure.
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  I mean it's there. It's there's definitely a lot of
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  numbers and data crunching that goes on to make the choices.
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  And fortunately I'm not the only one making these picks.
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  So there's, we know we have a team of analysts that help
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  understand sort of what what's happening in the market and a
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  further, you know, group of people that are, you know,
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  compiling all of this data. So the Haggerty Auto Intel team
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  is, has a lot of expertise and there's a lot of, you know, we
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  try to understand the entire enthusiast vehicle marketplace,
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  but you know, we do get to once a year, we get to get to pick
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  these 10 vehicles, maybe a motorcycle too.
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  And that we expect to, you know, appreciate and, and, or hold
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  their value for the next, you know, year and beyond.
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  And what's interesting is, is you know, it's, we look for one
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  of the great things about Haggerty is that it has a lot of
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  data. You know, it has not just sort
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  of auction results and data like the price guide values which go
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  back as far as 2006 for some vehicles, but we also have
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  insurance data. And so that helps us kind of
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  understand the types of people or the sort of the demographics
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  of a particular vehicle. And so, you know, we can see
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  like, you know, are there who who's shopping for this
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  particular vehicle and is it? And you know, that includes both
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  people getting a policy with agrity.
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  People just sort of coming to Haggerty and looking to, you
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  know, they say, hey, I've got, you know, a 1989 BMW 325I and
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  maybe an S and they want to insure for $25,000, you know,
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  and that's, you know, that valuation data point isn't that
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  unusual. But you know, if they're 75
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  years old or if they're 25 years old, that might mean something
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  different. And so in sort of in an
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  aggregate, we got a much better sense of kind of the demand
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  potential for certain vehicles. Yeah, data really is the most
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  valuable thing anymore, isn't it?
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  It's all right. Yes, it's.
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  And yeah, I, I'm feel fortunate to work for Agony because we do
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  have a lot of great data. Yeah.
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  What goes into the value of a car?
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  Obviously there are auction results, but is it
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  sentimentality? You know, does it come down to
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  the car's inherent value? How much is just simple rarity?
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  Like what's? What's the formula here?
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  Yeah, it's there's a variety of things.
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  I mean, sometimes, you know, there's rarity can help and it
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  can hurt as with, you know, and, and not just sort of how many
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  did they build, but also how many are in that particular
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  color, you know, so, and, and sometimes, you know, we just
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  looked at sort of the, the premium, the value of a
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  particular color for the 1st and 2nd generation Mazda Miatas.
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  And so, you know, we look, you know, some car, some colors are
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  very common. There's like classic red, which
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  is a very common color for Miatas.
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  And you know, it's gets a little tiny premium in the market, but
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  there are some rare colors, some yellows and some Blues that get
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  big premiums or actually get a discount.
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  And so. So rarity.
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  Right. Yeah.
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  So rarity can make a difference, you know, can help the car, it
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  can hurt the car. And so, but you know, the other
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  thing I think that especially as you sort of move up in the price
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  point and, you know, and it's kind of maybe not that specific
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  to a particular price point, but it's sort of what what can you
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  do with a car and what kind of experiences can you have with it
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  Is, you know, is your only experience going to be, you
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  know, having it sit in the shop or the garage while you're
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  waiting for parks and it's so, you know, you can't get it to
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  run? Or is the experience going on
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  the Colorado Grand? And so those kinds of
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  experiences, I think or opportunity to have those types
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  of experiences, you really have the value of the vehicle.
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  And so it's that's another big thing that helps.
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  Yeah. That's really interesting that
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  you incorporate use case and sort of like applicability to
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  like different scenarios in the valuation of the car.
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  Like, that's fascinating. Yeah, I mean it's you know, it's
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  not and sort of a big for a 1965 Ford Mustang, you know, there's
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  that's less of a thing other than just that you can get parts
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  for it and you can drive it and modify it and you know, where is
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  for more valuable vehicles. It's more of an explicit kind of
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  or obvious difference. And certainly I think one of
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  the, you know, one of the traditional value
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  differentiators is is for certain events like the London
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  to Brighton run where it's, you know, cars built before 19 O 5.
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  And for listeners, this is sort of a funny event in London,
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  England, where they drive very, very elderly cars, you know, 60
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  miles over the course of the day.
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  And so, you know, but it's, if you have an eligible vehicle for
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  that, then it's not, you know, worthwhile to get it.
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  But if you don't, then it's sort of you're out of luck and you
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  can't do as much with it. So and same with a newly up with
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  like the 1957 model year cut off and.
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  So Yep, Yep, Yep. And the Cal Melee, which is a
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  Haggerty event, I think it's 58. Is that right?
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  And you mentioned the grand, we're 60 and older, so that
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  really makes a real difference between like a 6356 and a 61,
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  right? Yeah, yeah.
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  I know for sure. Yeah, yeah.
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  It's makes adds up. And, you know, I think sometimes
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  for some of these events, they'll make exceptions and
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  things, but I think it's kind of, it really helps the
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  marketability of a particular vehicle.
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  And, and these, you know, these types of events sort of come and
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  go in terms of popularity. But but yeah, it's a, you know.
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  And so if you have a vehicle that's not eligible for an
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  event, but it's, you know, you'd like to do some drive, you know,
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  you can start organizing the tour.
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  I think there was something like a the Shelby GT350, the 1965
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  cars like, you know, there's a tour for those now and that's
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  more popular or something. Yeah, I think that's maybe is it
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  the Drew Serb event that they do in Northern California?
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  Possibly. I know, or I should say I know
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  he does one as well. I don't know if that's the one
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  that you're talking about. Probably.
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  But yeah, I've seen some pretty incredible pictures there's and
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  there's one that they do with cobras too, because I saw a
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  picture of a bunch of cobras in the snow in Montana, I think,
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  which looked incredible. Yeah.
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  So, John, we've established, say this again, I'm off tonight.
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  Sorry. I'm going to try this again.
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  We've we've established it's been a long day, like student
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  plays and everything. John, I actually this morning
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  got up early. I drove, I endeavored to drive
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  up to the top of Pikes Peak. Ordinarily wouldn't be able to
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  do in the winter, but it's like 60° here right now.
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  And I made it up about as far as Glen Cove, which is, I don't
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  know, 13. No, I think it's about 10 1/2
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  thousand feet. So OK, so that's where I got up
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  to do this. So it's been a long day, but
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  anyway back. In it's quite a day.
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  It is it is. We've established your, you know
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  your, your credentials as far as, as as mathematics evaluation
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  and all this. But what are your car
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  credentials like? When did you get into cars?
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  We were always. Yeah, so I, you know, I've, I
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  didn't, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and sort of
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  Silicon Valley. And so and I think growing up
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  there was, you know, exposed me to a bunch of kind of unusual
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  cars that there's a variety of stuff.
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  And it being California there, you know, stuff didn't rust and
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  as much. And so, you know, certainly that
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  smog pulled some cars off the road and things, but it's it's
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  just sort of that curiosity, like what is that?
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  And, you know, what is that little beige BMW 2002 and or
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  something? And so that was, you know, fun
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  to see some of these cars and, you know, I'd ride my bike
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  around and I'd take pictures of these cars and, you know, with a
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  on a film camera and. We can all relate.
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  To math and yeah, way to develop them and the pictures prints and
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  stuff. So but then you know, in this
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  and it's kind of out of that, I was reading kind of got into
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  reading sort of the vintage car magazines.
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  And at some point along the way, one of my mom's friends started
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  vintage racing cars like a Alpha Julieta Spider.
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  And so, you know, I would go to Sears Point or the Gonna Seca
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  and watch them race or something like that.
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  So Sears Point is of course Sonoma Raceway or something like
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  that. You can tell how long somebody's
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  been in the car by what era of names they use for the tracks.
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  Yeah, so, but, and her husband, she married a guy who was also
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  vintage racing and, and so I, you know, sort of learn from him
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  a bit about, you know, and he restored a bunch of cars and,
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  you know, got and found out like what's an Austin Healey and how
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  is that different than an Aston Martin and what's a, you know,
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  Jaguar XK120 and things like that?
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  So, so. Yeah.
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  And so that was kind of like high school, college.
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  And you know, I went, I didn't go to school in California for
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  college. I went off to the East Coast and
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  then went to Chicago later. And you know, these are not
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  really car friendly places. And so but I did keep going to
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  these car shows, Concord events. And I guess one of the other
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  unusual kind of coincidences was that I had some relatives that
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  live down on the Monterey Peninsula.
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  And so I'd go down, you know, go down and visit them.
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  And, you know, occasionally they'd say, you know, hey, we
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  have this car show. It's just down there at the
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  lodge at Pebble Beach. And, you know, you can come down
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  and stay with us. And, you know, here's a ticket
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  if you want. And so, and this was all much
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  more sort of, you know, informal at the time.
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  Back in the good old days. And also, you know, I had no
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  context of like, what is this event?
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  And so that kind of thing. And so I, so I ended up, you
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  know, kind of getting in some awareness of that event and
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  taking pictures of it and things at the, at the cars and stuff.
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  So, but then, yeah, so I got to, you know, took kind of a break
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  for a few years and then kept going, started going back to car
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  shows, Concord vintage races and things.
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  And then at some point I started this Flickr page of photos.
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  And so again, you know, that's dates.
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  I think it's, you know, I started it in about 2008 or so.
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  Yeah, Yeah. Tracks.
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  I think that was kind of Flicker's heyday.
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  Right. It's still people still use it.
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  I know. Wow.
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  Hasn't flickered out yet. Huh.
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  Yeah. What else?
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  Yeah. Worry when it changes hands or
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  something like that. Somebody buys it himself.
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  Yeah. So I started putting pictures on
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  there and I'm, I'm, you know, kept doing it and I, you know,
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  kind of tag the photos and describe it and you know, what
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  chassis number is this car? And, you know, do I have other
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  photos of it and things like that?
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  So I've tried to be pretty organized about the photos.
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  And so I am now up to like 28,000 photos on there and, you
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  know, and, and sort of like, you know, oh, I saw this car at, you
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  know, 12 years ago at Limelock Park.
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  And then I saw, you know, what again?
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  And it's now it's a different color and it's at Pebble Beach
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  or something like that. And so that kind of thing has
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  been helpful. And, you know, so anyway, at one
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  point I kind of, you know, as I had a career track after college
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  and studying computer science, I got into the financial world and
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  was working as an analyst there. And kind of went through a
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  couple different sort of in parts of that financial world
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  with equities and then derivatives, fixed income
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  derivatives and things and, and then moved us into a data
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  science role. But, you know, it's sort of this
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  combination of like, I have this career, but then I'm also
• 14:36
  spending a bunch of time and going to these car events and,
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  you know, it seems like it's kind of this worthless hobby and
• 14:43
  maybe I should just figure out something else to do because
• 14:45
  it's not really that worthwhile productive.
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  But fortunately, I found out about this opportunity at
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  Haggerty where they wanted somebody who could talk about
• 14:56
  sort of the market and understand values, but also knew
• 14:58
  about the cars. And so, you know, it's like, oh,
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  I have all these, you know, 10s of thousands of photos on Flickr
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  that I've been labeling and tagging and things like that.
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  And so which is, you know, a big part of sort of what Haggerty
• 15:11
  and the auto right automotive intelligence team does is kind
• 15:14
  of describing vehicles accurately.
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  And so that's a big part of it. So, so unfortunately that become
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  that's been a great combination and that lets me sort of talk
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  about a big picture part of the market, but then also kind of
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  what makes a specific car valuable.
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  And so that's sort of being looking down at whatever 30,000
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  feet, but then looking at a specific vehicle and
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  understanding what makes it worthwhile or valuable to
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  somebody is helpful. So.
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  Well, can we go down the list for 2026?
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  This was recently released. Sure.
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  Yeah, yeah, there's a good variety of cars.
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  You know, we work with the magazine media team to kind of
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  curate the list, you know, sometimes and it is, it's a
• 16:00
  little bit more of a, a list of vehicles where it's, you know,
• 16:06
  there's a a little bit of curation of like, you know, we
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  have, we don't want to have a despite, you know, a little bit,
• 16:14
  some inclinations of, of folks. It's, you know, we can't have a
• 16:18
  list of JDMK cars because nobody would read that that.
• 16:24
  So we, you know, there's sort of like let's have an American car,
• 16:28
  maybe something that's more modern.
• 16:30
  So, so there's a little bit of. Before you start, sorry, So what
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  what I mean what what are the qualifications and what are we
• 16:37
  looking for in a car that makes this list?
• 16:39
  What is it telling us? It's I think I mean there are
• 16:42
  there are kind of there are also differences of the kind of
• 16:46
  what's the investment or invest investment potential.
• 16:51
  And So what it, you know, is it is it a car that's going to
• 16:54
  double in value in the next five years?
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  Or is it a car that sort of used to be considered very
• 16:59
  collectible and valuable for its type and is maybe, you know,
• 17:05
  lost some of that value in the past five years.
• 17:07
  And maybe we expect it to turn around and rebound.
• 17:11
  So, and so there are sort of there or maybe the car's already
• 17:14
  valuable and we expect it to become even more valuable.
• 17:18
  So that's kind of some of the, the areas of where we look, you
• 17:22
  know, and certainly as the, you know, the market has kind of
• 17:26
  cooled relative to 10 years ago or so where or even 2022 where
• 17:33
  kind of everything was going up. You know, it's, it is a little
• 17:37
  bit more nuanced as to, you know, this vehicle's has some
• 17:42
  potential to rebound, whereas we expect some of the other
• 17:44
  vehicles that are comparable or similar to lose, continue to
• 17:49
  lose value or not appreciate further.
• 17:52
  Well, the first one that I see on the list is the 68 to 70
• 17:55
  Dodge Charger, and I think that's sort of fits in there
• 17:57
  because that's kind of an anomaly.
• 17:58
  A lot of muscle cars and cars of that era have really dropped,
• 18:01
  haven't they? Yeah.
• 18:02
  I mean, and there's, you know, it's yes and no.
• 18:07
  You know, it's, I think one one thing that's happened in the
• 18:10
  muscle car market is that some of the really valuable ones are
• 18:15
  still valuable or more mostly. But, you know, it's not every
• 18:21
  muscle car that's valuable. And you know.
• 18:25
  Yeah. And one of the surprising things
• 18:29
  to me, and this is somewhere sort of this Haggerty data and
• 18:33
  the demographics really help is, you know, the the demand for
• 18:38
  muscle cars is, is kind of is, is cross generational, you know,
• 18:43
  it doesn't matter. There's kind of this perception
• 18:44
  that it's, you know, people collect what they liked when
• 18:49
  they got their driver's license and you know, that's, you know,
• 18:53
  and I think that used to be really true, especially when,
• 18:57
  you know, the car that was new in the showroom when you got
• 19:00
  your driver's license was something cool, you know, and
• 19:04
  whatever it might be, 1961 Jaguar E type or something like
• 19:08
  that. But you know, if you were, if
• 19:11
  you got your driver's license in 1981 or 1991, maybe, you know,
• 19:17
  there wasn't as many sort of fun things to aspire to own.
• 19:23
  So I, you know, and I think also as cars, more and more cars have
• 19:27
  been restored and you know, and seeing, you can see more stuff.
• 19:30
  So there's much more sort of interest from younger
• 19:34
  generations and more vintage cars.
• 19:36
  And I think people realize that's fantastic.
• 19:41
  Yeah. And I mean, especially when it's
• 19:44
  sort of vintage, you know, pony cars, muscle cars, pickup
• 19:48
  trucks, you know, you can modify these cars.
• 19:51
  They're reasonably affordable and there's a lot of sort of
• 19:55
  they're available, you can get parts and things like that.
• 19:57
  Right. Well, that's really encouraging
• 19:59
  because I know like I'm around a lot of the like 60s muscle car
• 20:02
  crowd. And one of the concerns like
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  over the last few years for sure has been, you know, are the next
• 20:08
  generations interested in these or are we kind of, and again,
• 20:12
  it's this is the people where these cars were new when they
• 20:14
  were in high school. Yeah.
• 20:16
  Like are we the last generation or is this going to carry on?
• 20:19
  So it's nice to hear that that is.
• 20:21
  Like you are seeing interest from younger generations too.
• 20:24
  Yeah, and you know, and you couldn't look further back at
• 20:27
  like the Ford Model A and there's still interest in those.
• 20:29
  And, you know, and it, you know, no, it may not be a stock Model
• 20:33
  A, but it's, you know, people can still, people are still
• 20:36
  coming to agony looking to ensure 1.
• 20:38
  And so it's, you know, that's a 10 remains a popular vehicle.
• 20:43
  I'm going back to the Charger, though.
• 20:44
  You know, that's one of the things that helped it get on the
• 20:48
  list is that, you know, this car has a lot of screen time.
• 20:52
  You know, it's been in a number of different movies and, you
• 20:55
  know, across eras and things. And so I think that really helps
• 20:58
  it sort of remain relevant and something that that's
• 21:01
  recognizable for different generations and things.
• 21:05
  And so the fact that kind of the values of it had dipped a bit in
• 21:09
  the past several years seemed to help it make its place on this
• 21:15
  list where it's, you know, we expect values to turn around or
• 21:19
  or these sort of hold stable. Do you see when you have
• 21:23
  something like that, where the value has dipped, do you see
• 21:27
  people like that makes it more accessible to a wider group of
• 21:30
  people? Does that help?
• 21:32
  Do you see that? Like how does that play?
• 21:34
  Yeah. We'll look for sort of, you
• 21:36
  know, from our price guide values and those trends.
• 21:39
  We'll look for, you know, vehicles, people, you know, the
• 21:44
  downward trend and then we'll look for a signal of like
• 21:46
  potential of demand and people coming to Hackney and saying
• 21:49
  like, you know, quoted vehicles. And the other thing that we'll
• 21:52
  look at and then more sort of nuanced way is, is that, you
• 21:57
  know, are what are the values that people are either buying
• 22:01
  the cars for and putting them on policy or just sort of quoting?
• 22:05
  And so is that, you know, are they lower than what, you know,
• 22:08
  the price of the values say, which isn't helpful for the
• 22:12
  market, But you know, if they're higher and it says that, you
• 22:15
  know, somebody that's in their 40s, you know, is looking to buy
• 22:19
  a 68 charger and they want to spend, you know, whatever
• 22:21
  100,000 on it. You know, that's helpful for
• 22:24
  that, for that the case of that vehicle sort of holding its
• 22:27
  value over time. So you kind of look at, you
• 22:30
  start to look at the trends of like are we seeing like the
• 22:33
  values are going up, people are calling with higher quotes, that
• 22:35
  kind of thing. Yeah, Yep.
• 22:38
  Well, fast forwarding a little bit the 1999 to 2005 Mazda MX5
• 22:43
  Miata. So I think we're talking NC.
• 22:45
  Yeah, no, that's this is the NB Yeah, NB.
• 22:50
  So NA for a long time I guess. Yeah.
• 22:53
  And one, there's also the Miata folks will tell you that there's
• 22:57
  no 1998 model year. So there's there's this, they
• 23:02
  skip the model year. And this is the case.
• 23:05
  This is sort of one of these other types of vehicles that
• 23:08
  picks for the bull market, which is that, yes, there's sort of,
• 23:12
  there's a, there's kind of the one that everybody thinks is
• 23:15
  very collectible like the NA Miata.
• 23:18
  But it's sometimes the market can get kind of too far out over
• 23:23
  its skis. And you know, and that becomes
• 23:27
  very valuable or maybe overvalued, whereas a very close
• 23:31
  substitute such as the second generation NB Miana becomes a
• 23:36
  good deal. And so in this case, we sort of
• 23:38
  we expect that the NB Miana is going to be a good deal of
• 23:42
  relatively speaking relative to the NA or certainly these other
• 23:46
  cars like the Honda S2000, which has, you know, become pretty
• 23:50
  valuable. Well, it's interesting because
• 23:52
  the NB I think for a long time was kind of the, I don't know,
• 23:55
  the maligned Miata, right? It was, you know.
• 23:57
  They had, yeah, yeah, one of the ones.
• 23:59
  It was, yeah. So it's good to see, although
• 24:01
  there was the Mazda Speed MB, which I remember was a very
• 24:05
  competent car, and I'm glad to see that they're kind of coming
• 24:08
  into their own being appreciated.
• 24:10
  Yeah, they're good. Yeah, it's a good.
• 24:12
  I think we'll pick so. Well the next one I have in the
• 24:16
  list is the 1956 to 1957 Continental Mark 2A car which I
• 24:20
  know nothing about so. Not a Lincoln.
• 24:22
  It's not continental. Mark two, it was its own thing,
• 24:25
  right? Yes.
• 24:28
  So, yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, again, this is a little
• 24:30
  bit of like AI don't know, potentially like a value play
• 24:34
  where it's like you get a lot of car for your money.
• 24:37
  Literally a lot of cars. Yes, a lot of, I mean, you know,
• 24:40
  there's certainly like it's a lot of steel and iron and Chrome
• 24:45
  and glass and so on and so forth.
• 24:46
  But there's also, you know, it's, it was a very well
• 24:49
  engineered car for the time, especially for an American car
• 24:52
  has a lot of sort of style. It's relatively distinctive for
• 24:57
  that era of 1950s American luxury cars.
• 25:01
  So, you know, in this case, it's kind of a call out of like
• 25:05
  people maybe have forgotten about this car and you know,
• 25:08
  values have maybe dipped a bit. And so which is sort of like a,
• 25:12
  you know, and we're looking, but seeing potentially some signs
• 25:15
  that there are some people that are, you know, seeking this car
• 25:18
  out, you know, and it's worth potentially further
• 25:22
  investigations. Like not everyone has forgotten
• 25:25
  that they exist, but maybe the rest of you shouldn't take
• 25:28
  notice. So do you, when you go through
• 25:32
  to put the list together, like you said you're looking at, you
• 25:35
  know, we don't want to end up with all of one kind of car.
• 25:37
  Yeah. Do you, Does, does the variety
• 25:40
  that you try to include change every year or do you like, we
• 25:44
  always try to include one of these and always one of these
• 25:46
  like how does that work? Yeah, there's a bit, there's a,
• 25:48
  you know, there's sort of a guidance and an effort to
• 25:51
  balance the list. And so I don't think we
• 25:54
  necessarily, there's also, there's a Haggerty UK team and
• 25:58
  they produce a bull market list as well.
• 26:01
  And they have defined sort of groups of the.
• 26:05
  So there's a hot etch and there's a sort of a classic
• 26:07
  roadster, something of that nature.
• 26:10
  And so whereas we don't have quite as well defined
• 26:14
  categories, but yeah, we do try to have a kind of a balance of
• 26:18
  something that's a little more vintage and you know, it's not
• 26:20
  all 80s and 90s cars or something.
• 26:23
  Right, Yeah, yeah, that Continental, I do remember it
• 26:26
  being a really beautiful thing. And, you know, things were made
• 26:29
  of metal, right? Like, you know, it was, it was,
• 26:32
  it was. Plastic nonsense.
• 26:34
  Well, yeah, I mean, it's designed to be like a world
• 26:35
  beater, if I recall right. I mean, price was no object.
• 26:38
  Kind of a Rolls Royce competitor, maybe, in a way.
• 26:42
  Yeah, I think they had to. Some trivia on their hood
• 26:45
  ornament is that they had to get some defence contractor to make
• 26:49
  it because it's so, you know, precise and the and the yeah,
• 26:52
  the sharp edges that it has and things like.
• 26:54
  That who was? That, you know, it's all well
• 26:56
  before pedestrian safety regulations.
• 26:59
  Yeah, right. In rarity, I mean, there can't
• 27:02
  be any of them, right? So that factors, yeah.
• 27:04
  And certainly not, as could not surviving.
• 27:07
  Yeah, precursor to the the concerns about the cyber truck
• 27:10
  in its corners. Like we give you the Continental
• 27:13
  load ornament. Yeah, yeah.
• 27:14
  Yeah, that is one thing too that, you know, we find in in
• 27:20
  particular with the Miata and you know, some of it's the NA
• 27:23
  and, and also the NB. But you know, because they were
• 27:26
  raced so much and sort of used up, especially compared to a
• 27:33
  Corvette ZR1, AC 4C5 or something, ZO6, you know, those
• 27:40
  types of cars, you know, there's a lot more of them that were
• 27:43
  sort of put away, whereas Miatas were based a lot more often and
• 27:48
  sort of used up. And so it so that sort of
• 27:51
  attrition can help the collectibility of the vehicle
• 27:54
  too. And that's how you can end up
• 27:55
  with sort of these cars that were much cheaper when they were
• 27:58
  new become more valuable when they're sort of 2530 years old.
• 28:03
  Right. And what a what a what an
• 28:06
  important car the Miata really was right for us enthusiasts.
• 28:09
  It really kind of the flame going and all that.
• 28:12
  And so the next one on the list is the 1990 to 93 Chevrolet 454
• 28:17
  s s. So right, this is something I
• 28:20
  remember one of the really cool kids at school having when I was
• 28:22
  in high school, like an older kid.
• 28:24
  You know, why is this on the list?
• 28:26
  I have a sense it was really the first muscle truck, right?
• 28:29
  A modern. Muscle truck.
• 28:30
  Yeah, there's I mean, and you know, Ford had a kind of a
• 28:33
  similar F-150 Lightning at the time that I think.
• 28:37
  But yeah, it's, you know, it's, it is unusual thing.
• 28:41
  And you know, in this case, it is kind of when you look at what
• 28:46
  Chevrolet will sell you as a pickup truck, you know, a full
• 28:51
  size truck today, it's like this really isn't available in this
• 28:57
  combination anymore. So it's, it is, it's an
• 29:01
  interesting, I think it that's partly why it's on the list
• 29:04
  because it's just, there's a sort of an unrepeatable
• 29:07
  experience in this point in time for.
• 29:09
  If you. Want a accessible, you know,
• 29:11
  pickup truck with a big block? Right.
• 29:14
  I mean that really is like the Lightning too because the first
• 29:17
  Gen. Lightnings were not a Crew Cab
• 29:18
  either. Yeah, which was first?
• 29:21
  I think this came out first. I'm not 100% uncertain, but I
• 29:25
  think this came out first. And then I think the four
• 29:28
  responded a couple years later with a slightly different take
• 29:31
  on it, which I think it was a 351 different manifold and
• 29:38
  similar performance, but just a slightly different approach.
• 29:42
  And these were mostly black if I recall right.
• 29:45
  A handful of other colors, silver, white or something.
• 29:47
  Yeah, maybe white. Yeah, OK.
• 29:50
  And then this was before, I guess the cyclone as well,
• 29:53
  right, Just before or about the? Same time?
• 29:55
  I don't think so. I think they're about the same.
• 29:59
  I'll have to look and see. I can, yeah.
• 30:01
  And. To be honest, at that time, you
• 30:04
  know, I was, you know, a young teenager, the cyclone was the
• 30:07
  one that I wanted. That was the one that that I
• 30:10
  that really caught my eye, but. Yeah.
• 30:12
  And then but you know, it's interesting too, because you end
• 30:15
  up with sort of these, you know, cars that or vehicles that were
• 30:19
  ground breaking at the time, but you know, kind of all-wheel
• 30:23
  drive turbocharged truck SUV, you know, that became kind of
• 30:32
  the standard for most vehicles these days.
• 30:36
  And so whereas, you know, a rear wheel drive big block truck is,
• 30:42
  you know, still not very common on the market now.
• 30:45
  So, and this is what you know, this is a digression, but you
• 30:49
  know, this is kind of the, I think the the challenge that a
• 30:52
  car like the Porsche 95 Vine has is that, you know, that it was
• 30:57
  so advanced, but it was kind of accurately predicted future
• 31:02
  Porsche 9/11 supercars. And so it's kind of like you
• 31:06
  don't need to spend 2 to $3,000,000 for all-wheel drive,
• 31:12
  9/11 with the turbocharger because.
• 31:14
  Yeah. It's, you know, available still.
• 31:17
  Yep, Yep, Yep. Yep.
• 31:20
  No, you're absolutely right that you know that cyclone.
• 31:23
  I remember the 454 being nearly as quick, but that cyclone?
• 31:28
  Is yeah. Now it's for sure.
• 31:30
  It's fast. It's.
• 31:31
  Yeah, it's interesting, but two very different ways of going
• 31:33
  about the same problem, I guess, you know.
• 31:35
  So the next one on the list is the O 6 to 2013 Chevy Corvette
• 31:41
  ZO6. And this is a car I think that's
• 31:43
  finally getting its due, right? You could pick one up pretty
• 31:46
  cheaply there for a long time and.
• 31:48
  Yeah, but yeah, no. And you know, and again, it's
• 31:51
  kind of like, I think that certainly as the C8 has gone mid
• 31:56
  engine and you know, and that's now like forced inject, forced
• 32:01
  induction, you have this sort of unusual 5 train combination,
• 32:07
  which is 7 liter rear wheel drive, front engine car, manual
• 32:13
  transmission, naturally aspirated.
• 32:16
  So it's you, you kind of end up with these cars where it's, no,
• 32:20
  they're not necessarily cheap, but it's also sort of something
• 32:23
  that isn't, it's not something you can find easily in the
• 32:27
  market. And so that's partly why it's on
• 32:29
  this list. Yeah, well, hell of a lot of car
• 32:32
  for the money for sure. Yeah, you know.
• 32:35
  So the 69 to 72 Alfa Romeo GTV, this is a car, I swear, 10 years
• 32:40
  ago you never saw them around, and now you see them everywhere,
• 32:44
  right? They really came out of the
• 32:45
  woodwork. But they're such wonderful cars
• 32:47
  in every way. Yeah.
• 32:49
  No, I think I mean that's, this is kind of one of the challenges
• 32:54
  of the bull market list is sometimes we get a bit specific.
• 32:59
  And so in this case it's we're picking out the 1750, which is
• 33:06
  kind of the late 60s, early 70s version, but not the two leader
• 33:12
  2000 GTV, which has kind of a different grill and and
• 33:19
  certainly as you know, more power and as faster as a 2
• 33:23
  leader. But you know, there's a the sort
• 33:25
  of I think the aficionado take is that the 1750 is a is a
• 33:32
  little bit sweeter and maybe Rev is a little bit easier.
• 33:34
  And I think they are, you know, rare cars.
• 33:39
  It's a little bit hard to say how many are surviving and
• 33:43
  around on the market. But the other sort of
• 33:46
  difference, and this is if you're reading or paying
• 33:50
  attention, the my level of insight into the 454 s s versus
• 33:57
  the alphas should be done. But the other thing that I think
• 34:02
  is it can be helpful for this car is the I think the 69 had
• 34:06
  this flying buttress seat design, which is sort of as with
• 34:12
  like the Porsche world, you know, there's sort of one year
• 34:14
  old name model, your differences and everybody's going to goes
• 34:18
  crazy over. So so I think there's a, you
• 34:21
  know, a few factors that help this value help this vehicle
• 34:25
  become more collectible. Well.
• 34:28
  I think something else about this car, sorry to interrupt,
• 34:30
  is, is that it really has become a great alternative to an old
• 34:33
  Porsche right as and those have just skyrocketed right this.
• 34:37
  Is yeah, no, it's and I think you know, and there's a little
• 34:42
  bit of that of the event eligibility thing where it's
• 34:46
  like, you know, if you can take it to an event or a show that's,
• 34:49
  you know, suitable for the car, then that's really helpful.
• 34:52
  You know, in the in Southern California there's sort of now
• 34:57
  there's kind of Italian car show similar to lift the air cooled
• 35:05
  Porsche show where you know, in this one is Macanis Macanismo.
• 35:11
  So, you know, again, it's like if you want to, if you like that
• 35:16
  event or want to have a car in that event, this is, you know,
• 35:19
  getting a 1750 GTV is probably a good place to start.
• 35:22
  Yeah, yeah. And I think too, you know, when
• 35:24
  you see people start to signify, you know, vehicles, right?
• 35:28
  There's the Alcoholics and you know, these other outfits, you
• 35:31
  know, everything that's designed that there's something to it,
• 35:32
  right? Yeah, for sure.
• 35:34
  Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more?
• 35:36
  I'm very curious about the flying buttress seats that you
• 35:40
  mentioned. I think they're so it's, you
• 35:44
  know, it's a little bit like a bucket seat.
• 35:46
  It's, and I, I'm not certain, but I'm kind of, I'm, I'm
• 35:53
  assuming that they're inspired by a Zagato seat design, which
• 35:58
  is that you basically have a seat and then Zagato, you know,
• 36:02
  which that's just a kind of a tubular steel frame with some
• 36:06
  padding and some vinyl or leather or something or cloth
• 36:10
  covering. But Zagata would have seats
• 36:13
  where the, the, they'd kind of Weld this little diagonal that
• 36:17
  went from the, you know, 3/4 up the seat back to the front of
• 36:21
  the seat. And then there'd be like a
• 36:23
  little pad on the side. So it was very much just like a
• 36:26
  kind of improvised steel frame bucket seat.
• 36:30
  And so I think this seat probably is a little bit
• 36:34
  different take on that where it's not quite the same steel
• 36:38
  tubing behind it, but it's a little and it's sort of curved
• 36:42
  at the side of each of the seat back and it kind of helps.
• 36:46
  You. Stay in place a little bit
• 36:48
  better. That's so interesting.
• 36:50
  Yeah, yeah, it's all these nuances.
• 36:52
  You know Office are good for that though aren't?
• 36:55
  They right, yeah. I mean, and you know, I think
• 36:58
  there's a lot of, you know, maybe it's a sign of the
• 37:02
  collectability of a vehicle is when people, Corvette, people,
• 37:05
  Porsche never start getting into the, you know, the specifics of
• 37:09
  a particular car, right? Right.
• 37:11
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• 37:57
  Yeah moving on again to a newer car, 2006 to 2010 BMW M5.
• 38:03
  This, of course, is the 500 horsepower V10 is the one year
• 38:07
  they put AV 10 in an M5. And I think this is a car where,
• 38:11
  you know, the ones that are left are the good ones, right?
• 38:13
  Like they got cheap for a while, you know, young people had them,
• 38:16
  burned them up, you know, crashed them, whatever.
• 38:17
  And so the ones that are left are really the good ones.
• 38:20
  It was a very different character, right, than I think
• 38:22
  the M fives, M fives before and the M fives after.
• 38:26
  And also the styling was really divisive.
• 38:29
  Yeah, have you used the Bengal era?
• 38:31
  Yeah, and this is the yeah, the bunnies Sharp Hide 1 headlight
• 38:37
  car. I mean, and you know, this
• 38:40
  similar to some of the other cars on the list, including the
• 38:43
  Corvette C606, you know, this is an unusual sort of relatively
• 38:48
  large displacement, naturally aspirated engine with 500
• 38:52
  horsepower. I think there's three cars on
• 38:54
  the list with 500 horsepower. But but yeah, I mean, it's, you
• 38:58
  know, and there's a little bit of element of substitution
• 39:02
  where, you know, I think a lot of people like the the
• 39:05
  predecessor M5, which is the E39 with a 5 liter V8 or 4.9 liter
• 39:10
  V8 that's, you know, has a manual transmission and as as
• 39:13
  sort of more traditional styling.
• 39:18
  But, you know, it's so you end up with this kind of dynamic
• 39:21
  where it's like, yes, that car is collectible and valuable, but
• 39:25
  like this is also an interesting car and maybe is undervalued.
• 39:30
  And yeah, and Ryan, as you've pointed out, you know, a lot of
• 39:33
  these got used up or broke and people didn't afford to fix them
• 39:38
  for a variety of reasons. But you know, the other thing
• 39:42
  that's interesting to write with this is that, you know, we've
• 39:44
  seen a lot of, I think about 10% of the cars sold new in the US
• 39:51
  have since been exported. So that's sort of, it's not just
• 39:55
  that, you know, they're, they've been crashed or, you know, not
• 39:58
  maintained or something like that, but they just, they're not
• 40:00
  here anymore. And so that's where they went.
• 40:04
  Yeah. Good question.
• 40:05
  Probably back to Europe, but potentially other places too.
• 40:09
  So, and it's not, you know, and it could be that they just have
• 40:12
  a in potentially in Europe, they have better appreciation for the
• 40:17
  car and the performance. So, and you know, we they're
• 40:21
  certainly like the manual transmission cars that were
• 40:23
  available here in the US or at a premium.
• 40:26
  I think it's potentially like 50% more.
• 40:29
  But you know, part of it is I think that the, the seven speed
• 40:33
  SMG sequential manual gearbox, sort of automated single clutch
• 40:38
  transmission. And it's like, yes, there are
• 40:40
  some issues with it, but also, you know, some of those issues
• 40:44
  are becoming are getting sorted out.
• 40:48
  So I think that helps the car kind of become a little bit more
• 40:53
  collectible. And John, people are now
• 40:55
  sentimental for those that this first generation, you know.
• 40:59
  Yeah, no, yeah, you get. SMG type transmissions like
• 41:02
  mercy Lago and you know, I mean, it's like, you know, it's, it's,
• 41:05
  it's funny how things come around.
• 41:07
  Yeah, I, I will, you know, and this is again sort of the fun
• 41:10
  thing of working for Agony with the data that we have available
• 41:13
  is that there's a peculiar phenomenon that I've that is in
• 41:18
  the market, which is that Ferraris and Lamborghinis and
• 41:24
  BMWs, you know, off were sold in sort of that twenty 2000s era,
• 41:30
  twenty 10s era with with this single clutch automated manual
• 41:35
  transmission cars. If you convert a E46, so 2000s,
• 41:43
  early 2000s BM WM3 to a manual transmission car, it tends to,
• 41:49
  you know, gain in value. People like that transmission of
• 41:52
  that car better the manual if you convert.
• 41:57
  And you know, BMW built lots of manuals of that car too if you
• 42:02
  convert. Like considering how many of
• 42:04
  those were manual to start. Right.
• 42:07
  Yeah. But it's, you know, some of the
• 42:09
  and a little bit of it is that people didn't maybe didn't drive
• 42:13
  the SMG cars as much because they didn't like the
• 42:15
  transmission. That's a different kind of
• 42:17
  customer. So it's in the US fewer miles
• 42:20
  and they spent, you know, they got it an unusual color and
• 42:22
  things like that. The, the, the other thing though
• 42:27
  of this is that if people convert like a Ferrari F1
• 42:31
  transmission to a manual transmission gated shift car, it
• 42:36
  doesn't tend to help the value of the car.
• 42:39
  And it's a strange dynamic where I think people really just go
• 42:43
  after Ferrari collectors, really just go after the rarity of the
• 42:47
  manual transmission car and you know, and they get the, they
• 42:52
  still have the Ferrari factory blessing.
• 42:56
  Where is he? So it's a strange dynamic of
• 42:59
  this market where it's like some people and some cars do well and
• 43:04
  appreciate when you convert them to a manual and other cars
• 43:07
  don't. So interesting.
• 43:10
  Do you think that's like, I don't know if you have the data,
• 43:13
  if this is something that you have visibility into, but do you
• 43:15
  think it's the usability of cars?
• 43:19
  I mean, when I think of an E46, I know a lot of those are like,
• 43:22
  at this point, they're old enough people are looking at
• 43:24
  them as track cars. Yeah.
• 43:26
  And I would imagine that's less common in the Ferrari world.
• 43:30
  Is that something that you see? Yeah, I mean, I think the
• 43:33
  Ferrari is still a lot more sensitive to mileage than some
• 43:36
  of the other makes and things. And so it is very much like the
• 43:39
  the the fewer the miles, the the better the OR the more valuable
• 43:42
  the car. Right.
• 43:45
  And as wild as AV 10 in a mid size sports sedan seems now.
• 43:49
  I mean, yeah, lest we forget, Audi was doing it with the S6,
• 43:52
  right? You know, yeah, I don't think
• 43:54
  that was nearly the rocket that the M5 was with, you know,
• 43:57
  similar power. But yeah, those were kind of
• 43:59
  strange days. Right.
• 44:01
  Yeah, yeah. Manufacturers, you know.
• 44:03
  Right, yeah, when BMW had an F1 team and was.
• 44:06
  Yeah, yeah. Well, so long ago about that,
• 44:10
  right? And when you think about it now
• 44:13
  in terms of like, there's so much talk about engagement these
• 44:16
  days, which wasn't as much kind of in the ether at that time,
• 44:20
  but think about like, love them or hate them, those cars
• 44:23
  certainly generated engagement, you know, when they debuted.
• 44:27
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moving on.
• 44:30
  One I don't know a ton about. I remember them around back in
• 44:33
  the day, but they never seemed common even then, which maybe
• 44:36
  factors into why it's on this list.
• 44:38
  But the 1981 to 1993 and that's shocking that they made it up to
• 44:41
  93. But the Dodge Ram Charger, which
• 44:44
  was sort of a Bronco competitor, I guess you could.
• 44:46
  Call it. Yeah.
• 44:48
  And, you know, and as with some of the other vehicles on the
• 44:51
  list, you know, this is a little bit of a substitution play where
• 44:55
  it's, you know, people remember the Broncos or the Blazers and
• 44:59
  that's, you know, and they're potentially easier to find.
• 45:02
  But, you know, this is a very similar experience of those, but
• 45:05
  at a potentially at a lower price point.
• 45:07
  And so it can be worth looking for some of these.
• 45:10
  And, you know, and it it's, it does, it's kind of, it's very
• 45:13
  much that era before Dodge came out with that new look pickup
• 45:17
  truck in the mid 90s. And so I think this does has,
• 45:22
  you know, kind of fallen off the radar of a lot of enthusiasts.
• 45:27
  Sure, sure. One of the great foot ornaments
• 45:29
  of all time. Too.
• 45:30
  Yeah, right. Did they make?
• 45:32
  Very many pounds of foot ornament.
• 45:33
  Sorry, no Ram. Charger no, like did they make
• 45:36
  very many Ram chargers when you compare to how many Broncos and
• 45:39
  like the K5 Blazer would have been a competitor.
• 45:41
  At that point. Right.
• 45:41
  Yeah, good point. Yeah, I think it's probably a
• 45:43
  much rarer truck as like just you know and partly in with the
• 45:49
  sales lack of sales of sort of the similar Dodge Ram trucks at
• 45:54
  that time. You know, I think the the Ram
• 45:57
  Charger was is probably also a much smaller part of the market
• 46:01
  for that kind of full size 2 door SUV.
• 46:04
  Well, when you think about how much of the market the Bronco
• 46:07
  and the Blazer had, you know, that would have been an uphill
• 46:11
  battle. But it's funny that you
• 46:13
  mentioned the Ram Charger because I actually saw one over
• 46:15
  Christmas in person. I could not believe it on the
• 46:18
  road. Right.
• 46:20
  Last from the past, yeah. Yeah, it was wild.
• 46:23
  I know. And I only know.
• 46:24
  Yeah. Right.
• 46:26
  So the next one, I think probably the 25 year rule has
• 46:29
  something to do with this one. It's the 95 to 98 Nissan Skyline
• 46:33
  GTR. I mean, I think it's it's charms
• 46:37
  are pretty clear to all of us, but but what else is factored
• 46:40
  into that being on the list? Yeah.
• 46:43
  So, you know, this is maybe the last picture, but there's a bit
• 46:49
  of a substitution with this one as that, you know, the the
• 46:53
  predecessor, the R32 kind of groundbreaking all-wheel drive
• 46:59
  skyline that was only sold in Japan as well.
• 47:03
  You know, that's gets a lot of attention for being kind of the
• 47:07
  first, the the debut of this John era of skylines.
• 47:13
  And then, you know, the the succeeding the third generation
• 47:16
  skyline, the R34 that's the, you know, been in lots of movies and
• 47:19
  is sort of seen as much more sort of pretty or or a better
• 47:25
  design. You know, the R33 is kind of
• 47:30
  this forgotten middle child, that skyline generation where
• 47:35
  it's, and you know, and so the valleys kind of reflect that
• 47:38
  where it's, you know, it's much less common.
• 47:41
  You know, the values of it are a lot lower, especially relative
• 47:45
  to the some of the other ones. So it's, you know, it's, it's,
• 47:48
  you know, a third of the value of like an R34.
• 47:53
  And you know, we've already seen sort of this pick up of
• 47:58
  transition of, of imports of the R34 relative to R33.
• 48:03
  And so it's kind of like there's potentially already a a cap on
• 48:07
  the R30 threes and so and in the volume number of vehicles
• 48:11
  available in this in the country.
• 48:13
  So that pretends well for its appreciation relative to the
• 48:19
  R34. Was this still the gentleman's
• 48:21
  agreement era of the 276 horsepower right on paper.
• 48:25
  But you know, it's, it's amazing how how much things have
• 48:28
  changed, right? You know how quickly that window
• 48:31
  but. You know, and the other thing
• 48:34
  too that with Nissan and that sort of they're, you know,
• 48:37
  gradually doing kind of heritage parts and things is that they're
• 48:43
  actually have, you know, looked into this and said, you know,
• 48:46
  oh, you know, it is interesting how many skylines are now in the
• 48:50
  US. And maybe this is it's something
• 48:53
  that we should help out where they're kind of, you know, make
• 48:56
  more parts, reintroduce parts for these cars and things.
• 48:59
  And so that is something that we've seen is that they're now,
• 49:03
  you know, gradually starting to reintroduce parts for the
• 49:05
  skyline, which I think will help their usability.
• 49:08
  Well. I mean, Nissan has such a
• 49:10
  performance heritage and it always bothered me for so long,
• 49:14
  you know, how they didn't tap into it.
• 49:16
  And it's good to see them doing that again, you know, two more
• 49:19
  cars on the list, the 95 to 98 Volkswagen Golf GTI VR6.
• 49:24
  Again, this is 1 as a young person, I would have killed for,
• 49:27
  you know, And now I think in retrospect, they, you know, we
• 49:30
  realize how special they were, right?
• 49:32
  Yeah. And you know, and as with like
• 49:35
  the Miata or something, you know, this is a car of attrition
• 49:38
  where there's there not many of them around anymore.
• 49:42
  Certainly not that are in nice condition because it was such a
• 49:45
  popular high school car and you know, we know how high schoolers
• 49:50
  treat their cars, but it's it is yeah.
• 49:54
  So it's, you know, and this is an interesting car too, because
• 49:57
  it's, it's the VR6 which is much worse, sort of has better
• 50:02
  performance than the sort of 1.8 and the four cylinders.
• 50:05
  So it's an interesting kind of difference.
• 50:09
  And you know, and again, this is, you know, as spokes I can
• 50:12
  it's kind of moved away from the, you know, the GTI is I
• 50:16
  think maybe in is no longer available in this country.
• 50:22
  And certainly, or at least the, you know, the manual options
• 50:25
  gone away and things. And so it's it's much more of
• 50:28
  the an eagle for a golf bar or something.
• 50:32
  So you know, finding something that's like a PR6 with a manual
• 50:36
  transmission and natural aspect it is a it's a pretty desirable
• 50:41
  option. Yep, for sure, for sure.
• 50:43
  And the last car on the list is a car I think we can all get
• 50:45
  behind wholeheartedly. It's the Porsche career GT.
• 50:50
  But why this year? It's a good, it's a neat car
• 50:53
  because it's, you know, as with some of these others, it's, you
• 50:56
  know, it's not Porsche. It just doesn't really offer
• 50:59
  this anymore, which is this mid engine car with a V10 engine
• 51:02
  that's naturally aspirated at a manual transmission.
• 51:05
  And so you know, and certainly it's it's you know, it's a 7
• 51:09
  figure car, but I think there's a few factors that are starting
• 51:13
  to help. It's a value and potential
• 51:15
  appreciation. 1 is, you know, they did the suspension recall
• 51:20
  recently a couple years ago. And so the cars are now too much
• 51:24
  better to drive your tire technologies advanced lately in
• 51:28
  the past 20 years. So Michelin can sell tires that
• 51:33
  are much more sort of appropriate for the vehicle.
• 51:37
  And then I, you know, kind of at the at the high end of the
• 51:40
  market, you know, there is kind of this better understanding of,
• 51:44
  you know, yes, most of them are are GT silver or seal Gray or
• 51:49
  something or but there are I think that's, you know, I think,
• 51:54
  let me see. I think there's something like
• 51:55
  57 paint sample cars and you know, maybe about half of them
• 52:01
  were sold in the rest of the world and fewer than half were
• 52:04
  sold in the US. And so, so there's paint just
• 52:08
  half cars are, you know, and that's 57 out of about 12170 or
• 52:13
  so that were built. And so those cars we're finding
• 52:18
  seeing are, are becoming very valuable.
• 52:20
  And you know, we have this sort of.
• 52:23
  What's the gulf there with the Pinta sample cars and the
• 52:25
  standard? Yeah, it's, it can be a little
• 52:28
  tough to identify it, but we recently, we occasionally will
• 52:32
  do this thing called the pricing note for the our price cut
• 52:36
  values, which is that if the car has like a, if it's a 1963
• 52:41
  Chevrolet Corvette 06 with a big gas tank or a small gas tank,
• 52:47
  you know, sometimes you know, it's the one of the tanks has
• 52:51
  like is worth another $50,000, something like that.
• 52:54
  So in this case, what we've determined is that the these
• 53:00
  painted sample Porsche curve GTS can be worth 50% more than sort
• 53:04
  of a similar sort of regular production car.
• 53:08
  And so that's, yeah, it's I wonder.
• 53:11
  What a premium it was at the time.
• 53:13
  I know I have a sense of like, if you go in and get a new, you
• 53:15
  know, GT3, what, what that that paint cost, But you know, I
• 53:19
  mean, just think of the the how that investment paid off, right,
• 53:23
  just the right, It's wild. It's not funny.
• 53:26
  You think about at the time, like now everybody's familiar
• 53:30
  with paint a sample and paying more for a color.
• 53:32
  And that concept at the time was newish or much less common.
• 53:37
  Yeah. So then to look at whatever the
• 53:38
  premium was, I would imagine it was even more, you know,
• 53:42
  striking. Yeah, yeah.
• 53:44
  I mean, I think you had to know that you could do it and, and
• 53:48
  so, yeah, I think it was unusual.
• 53:50
  Now everyone does it. So you know, I'm thinking GT
• 53:53
  Silver is the move 20 years from now, right?
• 53:55
  At least that's what I'm I'm. Hoping yeah, the move is to
• 53:58
  pointedly not do PTS. Right, right.
• 54:00
  A good appliance, white or something, right?
• 54:02
  You know they just don't see anymore, right?
• 54:05
  Well, John, I know they had, there was the Carrera GT that I
• 54:08
  think Porsche did a full restoration on and it's that
• 54:12
  blue one. I think it's called Speedster
• 54:14
  Blue. Yeah, there's yeah, I think, I
• 54:16
  mean they've done a couple I think and there there was an Oak
• 54:19
  green car that they did too that was.
• 54:22
  And so those, that's the other kind of option is to go back,
• 54:26
  send it back to Porsche special wishes and get, you know, a
• 54:31
  class restored career GT and a different color or something.
• 54:36
  We've got the canopy cars now too, right?
• 54:38
  You know, he's doing, he's done dozens, I think, which is kind
• 54:42
  of wild to think about, right, because they seem like these
• 54:44
  sacred cows. And then, you know, he's redoing
• 54:46
  them at even that much more of a premium.
• 54:48
  But so, you know, I was looking through this list and it's and
• 54:51
  I've, I've followed this for for a while, for years.
• 54:54
  And it struck me, you know, are there any cars that come up year
• 54:56
  after year, but they never make the final lists or like the
• 54:59
  always the bridesmaid, never the the bull market bride kind of
• 55:02
  kind of thing? But they're I don't know,
• 55:06
  there's sometimes. So there there are a couple of
• 55:09
  some of the behind the scenes things is is 1.
• 55:14
  We have to be able to find one to photograph it and put it in
• 55:18
  the magazine. And so if we can't find one or
• 55:21
  don't think that we can find one, then that sort of means
• 55:25
  it's not on the list. So that that is shapes what
• 55:29
  happens. The other thing is that one of
• 55:32
  the sort of things to look out for is some of these cars, you
• 55:37
  know, we didn't carry or we didn't have in the Haggerty
• 55:39
  price guide a year ago. And so as we, you know, in some
• 55:44
  cases, if you're kind of anticipating like a future pick
• 55:48
  and something seems like it should be covered in the
• 55:51
  Haggerty price guide, but it isn't, then that could be a
• 55:54
  potentially could pick in the future.
• 55:56
  So in this case, like for example, the E60B MW M5, like we
• 56:01
  didn't have that values and that and that Haggerty price guide,
• 56:05
  you know, a year ago, but we've since added it because we feel
• 56:08
  like it's becoming collectible despite its appearances and
• 56:12
  things. So so yeah, those are kind of
• 56:15
  the things. But but so it if there are
• 56:19
  vehicles where, you know, it's some unusual car, say a Nissan
• 56:25
  Pulsar GTIR that you know is potentially fun but very hard to
• 56:31
  track down, you know, we may not have put it on the list.
• 56:35
  I'm laughing because I literally took a picture of a Pulsar NX
• 56:39
  last night. Hadn't seen one in a long time
• 56:41
  and it wasn't anything special, but it had, you know, you could
• 56:43
  get the different rear ends to or the tops.
• 56:46
  Yeah, definitely. A fastback or a wagon.
• 56:49
  And this was the wagon. And I almost sent it to you,
• 56:51
  Lindsay. And I thought you're gonna.
• 56:53
  I thought it was like a bridge too far.
• 56:54
  You. Know I'm always.
• 56:56
  Up for. Spotting, like car spotting.
• 57:00
  I mean, I feel like you and Dan are the poor recipients of my
• 57:03
  constant like look at this. I mean you guys were talking
• 57:05
  like I saw an R34 Skyline right hand drive at Christmas and
• 57:10
  immediately sent it to Dan and Ryan.
• 57:14
  Yeah, it's no defender, but it's going.
• 57:17
  To mix it up every now and then, right?
• 57:18
  So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So John, obviously this is but
• 57:22
  one small part of your role at Haggerty.
• 57:25
  I'm sure you are also heavily involved with the auction side
• 57:28
  of things with with Broad Arrow, right?
• 57:30
  Yeah. I mean, we, you know, we try to,
• 57:33
  because we're looking at the whole market, we do try to
• 57:37
  maintain some neutrality of stuff the the auctions and and
• 57:41
  you know, and further, we won't necessarily call out, you know,
• 57:45
  this auction, this auction and this auction company did really
• 57:48
  well or did really poorly or something like that.
• 57:50
  So we do try to just kind of observe what's happening in the
• 57:55
  market and things. It's a judgment.
• 57:58
  Judgment Free zone. Yeah.
• 58:01
  And I I imagine the online auctions in particular have
• 58:03
  really skewed right values, especially the more accessible
• 58:06
  cars. Yeah.
• 58:08
  And you know, and there's kind of one certainly that
• 58:13
  availability and, and being able to find a particular car, you
• 58:17
  know, and certainly with an online auction has helped become
• 58:21
  helped a lot of cars become more collectible.
• 58:24
  So that sort of, you know, if you in particular with live
• 58:28
  auctions, you know, there's only so, so much time that a car can
• 58:32
  cross the block and you know, and so many hours in the day and
• 58:35
  things. But with an online auction,
• 58:37
  there's so much more sort of Brett and scale and things.
• 58:40
  So it's so I think that there's that format of auction is really
• 58:45
  helped and sort of broadening out what's what's considered
• 58:48
  collectible. I don't think, you know, you go
• 58:52
  back a few years, I don't think anyone saw that coming.
• 58:55
  Yeah. No, it is.
• 58:55
  It's a really remarkable change. We do see that the online
• 59:02
  auction market has, you know, they've long sold more vehicles
• 59:06
  than live auctions, but it's, you know, their total sales in
• 59:10
  dollars is really is now taking the lead pretty convincingly.
• 59:14
  Yeah. So I think they're doing about
• 59:16
  $1.7 billion in sales in North America last year.
• 59:21
  So and that's I think the live auctions were about $1.4 billion
• 59:28
  in sales. So they've gotten a a pretty
• 59:30
  good size lead now. It's just one of those things I
• 59:33
  just thought never would be right like Uber or you know, I
• 59:36
  mean, it's just like that doesn't.
• 59:38
  Why would anybody do that? Right.
• 59:39
  You know well. It's open.
• 59:42
  Amazon first started and you're like, Oh yeah, I'm going to
• 59:44
  order a book online and I'll actually get it.
• 59:47
  Like, yeah, yeah, the world has changed so much in such a, a
• 59:51
  short amount of time and continues to do so.
• 59:53
  It's it's pretty, it's pretty wild.
• 59:54
  It's so can you give us sort of a, a look into, I don't know,
• 1:00:00
  the next five years, 10 years, 20 years, like general trends.
• 1:00:02
  I know you're not a you know, can't read the future, but.
• 1:00:05
  Get out the crystal ball. Yeah, yeah, we do.
• 1:00:08
  Yeah. I mean we do do well we started
• 1:00:11
  forecasting guys a little bit, I won't get into that, but we do
• 1:00:16
  make year end predictions for some predictions for this year
• 1:00:20
  2026 and you know and then we'll also score our prior year's
• 1:00:24
  predictions. And so we're you know,
• 1:00:26
  occasionally we are pretty accurate, other times we've
• 1:00:29
  we've had a lot of misses. But, but you know, one of the
• 1:00:32
  things in sort of one of the general trends, I will say one
• 1:00:38
  of the predictions that we made, and this was kind of a little
• 1:00:42
  bit jokingly, but it was well, entirely joking.
• 1:00:46
  It was that the, you know, we, we get a lot of kind of requests
• 1:00:50
  from people saying, you know, I have this Ferrari, Porsche,
• 1:00:53
  Corvette something and, you know, and I think I want to
• 1:00:56
  insure it for $500,000 and it's, you know, well, what is that
• 1:01:02
  based on? And, you know, and it turns out
• 1:01:06
  often times that we were getting these requests where it's, you
• 1:01:09
  know, it's some AI chat bot that sort of pulls in data and says,
• 1:01:12
  you know, based on this listing price of this car, you know,
• 1:01:17
  it's now we think this with this mileage and then this color, we
• 1:01:20
  think it's, you know, worth $500,000.
• 1:01:22
  And so we tend to like push back on that.
• 1:01:24
  So one of our predictions on that was, you know, and this is
• 1:01:28
  because often times asking prices are not what's actually
• 1:01:31
  the price that's paid. And but you know, our 10th
• 1:01:36
  prediction of the for 2026 that was that Pontiac Aztec is will
• 1:01:40
  be worth $100,000. And so we, so we'll see, we'll
• 1:01:46
  we'll check to come back and see if we get any requests for sort
• 1:01:50
  of $100,000 Pontiac price tax. Hysterical.
• 1:01:53
  That car was so ahead of its time, you know, and you know,
• 1:01:58
  it's just it's it's, I wonder how much of that was the fault
• 1:02:02
  of the car and how much of that was the fault of the marketing
• 1:02:06
  and you. Know everything that designed.
• 1:02:08
  I think it was the marketing, but yeah, so John, so my husband
• 1:02:14
  just moved here from Albuquerque, and when he was in
• 1:02:16
  Albuquerque, his daily driver was one of the Aztecs in the
• 1:02:20
  Breaking Bad color with the mismatched wheels for like a
• 1:02:24
  year and a half. And he raves about it ever left
• 1:02:26
  him. Stranded like super capable.
• 1:02:29
  Yeah. Well, and you know, I mean if
• 1:02:31
  there, if it, if. There ends up being the Pontiac
• 1:02:34
  Aztec tour that, you know, visits the Peninsula Hotel or
• 1:02:40
  something and somewhere then maybe it will turn into a six
• 1:02:45
  figure car. But everyone will say, Haggerty
• 1:02:47
  do it all along. Yeah.
• 1:02:49
  Yeah, so. Well, John, I have learned a lot
• 1:02:52
  tonight. I mean, this has really been
• 1:02:54
  fascinating. And if I could talk to you for
• 1:02:55
  another hour very easily. But one important question we
• 1:02:59
  didn't ask, and that's what's in your garage.
• 1:03:02
  Yeah, I have two. Cars one my daily drivers is is
• 1:03:09
  a 2018AR Giulia. I'm just the the 4 cylinder.
• 1:03:13
  So, yeah, and I got that, you know, off lease, it's a fun, you
• 1:03:19
  know, kind of usable car, but it's a little bit different.
• 1:03:24
  So that's a nice car. I've had that about 5-6 years
• 1:03:27
  now. So yeah, it's a good car.
• 1:03:30
  Yeah. The other car I've had long.
• 1:03:35
  We accept that answer, yeah. The other car I've had longer.
• 1:03:40
  It's, you know, sort of one of these as, as Dave Kinney would
• 1:03:45
  say, you know, buy what you love, Don't buy something for
• 1:03:48
  appreciation potential. But it's a, it's a 2006 Maserati
• 1:03:55
  Grand Sport Spider, which I bought cheaply and then, you
• 1:04:00
  know, spent a lot to sort of catch up on maintenance.
• 1:04:04
  And you know, it, it's, it's not vintage and it's not that
• 1:04:09
  modern, but it was my only car for a while.
• 1:04:13
  And yeah. And and you know that we spoke
• 1:04:18
  earlier about sort of these automated single clutch
• 1:04:21
  transmissions. I think in this car it's the
• 1:04:26
  right transmission. And obviously I'm biased because
• 1:04:29
  I have one, You know, it's not, I don't think people need to be
• 1:04:36
  using the clutch pedal. You know, sort of the, the,
• 1:04:39
  whatever the original design brief was, it wasn't the, you
• 1:04:43
  know, full track driving engagement kind of thing.
• 1:04:47
  So I think it suits the car. I don't feel like it's, it's not
• 1:04:50
  perfect, but I think it works pretty well.
• 1:04:53
  So I almost bought a coupe, Yeah.
• 1:04:56
  Yeah, they're great deals. Yeah, they're neat.
• 1:04:58
  I mean that. You know you've got.
• 1:05:00
  Is it the the three? 60 or the 430 engine up front.
• 1:05:03
  It's the It's based on a 430 engine.
• 1:05:06
  And so when it came out, you know, it was available for
• 1:05:09
  before the 4:30 had it. It is the 4.2 format.
• 1:05:15
  It's dry sump. You know it has a four Cam, 390
• 1:05:20
  horsepower, 400 horsepower. V8.
• 1:05:23
  So I think it's a lot of car for the money, but that is an
• 1:05:28
  enthusiast. Garage, John.
• 1:05:30
  That really is. That's pretty great line up,
• 1:05:33
  yeah. Yeah, I love that two car
• 1:05:35
  solution. Yeah.
• 1:05:38
  Yeah. I'd like to get something more
• 1:05:40
  vintage at some point, but. I need to find space for it.
• 1:05:44
  Yeah. And those, I feel like those
• 1:05:45
  spiders and those coops, they're coming.
• 1:05:47
  Up too, aren't they? People are finally kind of
• 1:05:49
  catching up. I don't know, a little bit.
• 1:05:52
  Let's make it so. Right.
• 1:05:55
  You know, and this is, it's kind of.
• 1:05:58
  As with a lot of things, it's kind of the the liquidity of the
• 1:06:02
  market helps it. And so I think it's more of
• 1:06:04
  appear on the market and there's bought, bought and sold and
• 1:06:07
  there's sort of you know, and this is actually Speaking of
• 1:06:11
  this is the those that era Maserati coupe Spider, we don't
• 1:06:15
  cover in the Haggerty price guide yet.
• 1:06:17
  So it's not really something that we have.
• 1:06:20
  Yeah, the we don't see the demand to have it in the guide
• 1:06:25
  and we also don't really have the transaction data yet.
• 1:06:29
  Sure, sure. Yeah, right on, Right on.
• 1:06:33
  Well, John, I, I feel like you're kind of living the dream.
• 1:06:35
  You know, you're working for Haggerty, you know, doing what
• 1:06:37
  you're doing. I mean, you really have the best
• 1:06:39
  of, of both of your worlds, right?
• 1:06:41
  You're, you're doing a pretty cool thing.
• 1:06:43
  And I, I think, you know, the work you do is only going to
• 1:06:46
  play more and more into the, this, this enthusiast world, you
• 1:06:49
  know, moving forward for a number of reasons.
• 1:06:51
  So I think your timing is perfect too, you know, is there
• 1:06:55
  anything else? OK, so my my question.
• 1:06:58
  Is what has been the most surprising thing that you have
• 1:07:03
  either experienced or that you've seen in the trends
• 1:07:06
  putting, you know, as you're putting the list together or
• 1:07:10
  like, what's something that people assume about valuations
• 1:07:13
  that is like totally incorrect, I think.
• 1:07:17
  Well, I mean to me the the surprising.
• 1:07:19
  Thing is, is, is kind of this stereotype or belief that, you
• 1:07:27
  know, people collect the thing that they liked, you know, when
• 1:07:31
  when they were 16 years old and it you know, and yes, I think
• 1:07:37
  that's that probably was true. And or it needs to be.
• 1:07:42
  There needs to be a sort of a follow up, which is that, you
• 1:07:44
  know, it doesn't need to have been the car that was for sale
• 1:07:48
  new when they were 16 years old. That could be the car that was,
• 1:07:52
  and this is and this is the follow up podcast or something.
• 1:07:57
  But you know, one of the things with the Miata, the NA Miata,
• 1:08:01
  which is the 1990 to 1997 built car, the that is the most
• 1:08:08
  commonly quoted vehicle of Gen. Z and Gen.
• 1:08:13
  Z. The oldest Gen.
• 1:08:15
  Z years, as far as Haggerty was concerned, is they were born in
• 1:08:20
  1997. So this car was out of
• 1:08:23
  production by the time the oldest of those were born.
• 1:08:26
  So, so that, you know, for me, that's kind of the surprising
• 1:08:30
  thing that we see is that, you know, people like vehicles, but
• 1:08:34
  there isn't there's less and less of a sort of association of
• 1:08:37
  like the the new vehicles of their era that it's like a
• 1:08:42
  guarantee hard and fast rule that it's like whatever.
• 1:08:45
  Was new when they were in high school.
• 1:08:46
  Well, that's yeah, I think that used to be the case, but it's no
• 1:08:49
  longer. Well, and you talked about
• 1:08:51
  looking at, you know, lifestyle and kind of usability.
• 1:08:53
  And versatility of the car. And like you make a good point
• 1:08:56
  with, you know, this is the car or the people quoting this
• 1:09:00
  particular car were born that year.
• 1:09:02
  So they obviously weren't aware of it at the time, right?
• 1:09:05
  But yeah, I mean, now they see that they can do, you know?
• 1:09:08
  Driving tours or events or something with it.
• 1:09:11
  And so it has speaks to them in some other way besides sort of
• 1:09:14
  the car that they wanted when they were about to get their
• 1:09:16
  driver's license. Yeah.
• 1:09:18
  Well, and you look at 2. I mean, you mentioned movies.
• 1:09:21
  Earlier with the Skyline, like maybe the cars weren't brand
• 1:09:25
  new, but if you look at the movies that were like coming out
• 1:09:29
  when they were learning to drive, that's going to influence
• 1:09:31
  their likes too. And it might not be a car that
• 1:09:33
  was brand new at the time, too. So yeah, if Tom Toretto drove 1.
• 1:09:43
  Yeah, exactly. Argue with the data.
• 1:09:46
  And John Wiley, it's. Really been a pleasure having
• 1:09:48
  you on. So again, John, you are
• 1:09:51
  Hegerty's director of Evaluation analytics and it's been a
• 1:09:55
  fascinating conversation. Thank you very much.
• 1:09:57
  And I, I would love to have you back.
• 1:09:59
  I know you know, we got to have you back.
• 1:10:01
  There's got to be a Part 2 to this.
• 1:10:02
  There's so much more to talk. It really is.
• 1:10:04
  It's fascinating. It really is.
• 1:10:05
  And you're obviously a true. Enthusiast as well as evidenced
• 1:10:08
  by your two car solution and it's really been it's really
• 1:10:12
  been fun. So John Wiley and Lindsay, thank
• 1:10:15
  you, appreciate having. Appreciate having you.
• 1:10:18
  Yeah. All right.
• 1:10:19
  Until next time, John. Wiley And this has been that car
• 1:10:24
  show. Lindsay And remember, always be
• 1:10:27
  driving and we'll see you next week.