Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Cleary Legacy: A Brother’s Fight for Justice | Phil Cleary [Part 1]

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The Cleary Legacy: A Brother’s Fight for Justice | Phil Cleary [Part 1] · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apote production.
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Speaker 2: This podcast contains descriptions of sexual assault and psychological trauma.
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Speaker 2: It's not recommended for younger listeners and discretion is advised.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm your host
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Speaker 2: Adam Shand Today is part one of two episodes on
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Speaker 2: the danger women face when separating from violent men. In
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Speaker 2: August nineteen eighty seven, twenty five year old Vicky Cleary
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Speaker 2: was murdered by her ex boyfriend Peter Keo. All the
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Speaker 2: evidence pointed to wilful homicide. However, under an archaic legal
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Speaker 2: principle called the provocation law, the murderer was entitled to
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Speaker 2: claim that Vicky had provoked him into losing control and
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Speaker 2: stabbing her multiple times.
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Speaker 3: Vicky Cleary was only twenty five when she was repeatedly
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Speaker 3: stabbed at a kindergarten by her abusive ex partner.
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Speaker 2: Despite strong evidence of premeditation, including laying in wait for
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Speaker 2: an hour to attack Vicky outside the Melbourne kindergarten where
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Speaker 2: she worked, Keo was found guilty of manslaughter only and
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Speaker 2: sentenced to three years and eleven months in jail.
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Speaker 3: Outrage follows court decision as killer avoids murder conviction under
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Speaker 3: provocation defense.
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Speaker 2: Vicky's brother, Phil Cleary, a champion footballer and later independent
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Speaker 2: member of Federal Parliament, worked for decades to highlight this
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Speaker 2: deep injustice. The provocation law was finally repealed in two
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Speaker 2: thousand and five. Phil Cleary has continued to fight for
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Speaker 2: the rights of women before the law and to highlight
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Speaker 2: domestic violence. More than one hundred women are murdered each
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Speaker 2: year in Australia, and on average, a woman is killed
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Speaker 2: every nine to eleven days by a current or former partner.
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Speaker 3: In twenty twenty five, at least seventy fours Australian women
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Speaker 3: have been killed in domestic violence attacks.
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Speaker 2: This year, and the trend is appalling a jump of
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Speaker 2: twenty eight percent in the year to twenty twenty five.
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Speaker 2: Vicky Cleary Day is held every year in Melbourne to
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Speaker 2: continue the fight for justice for these victims and those
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Speaker 2: who may face the same fate.
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Speaker 3: Crowds gather in Melbourne for Vicky Cleary Day to honor
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Speaker 3: victims of domestic violence.
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Speaker 2: In part two, I'm going to talk to Vicky's sister Lizzie,
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Speaker 2: but first it's my privilege to welcome Phil Cleary to
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Speaker 2: the Real Crime Studio Gido.
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Speaker 1: Phil Hello, Adam, good to talk with you.
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Speaker 2: It's always a pleasure, mate. I've done you a long
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Speaker 2: time and you've been fighting this cause all that time.
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Speaker 2: And I am shocked to think that this provocation law
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Speaker 2: was still in force in two thousand and five. What
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Speaker 2: does it say about our society and our attitude to
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Speaker 2: just for women.
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Speaker 4: Well, it's astounding, really, Adam, in that the history of
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Speaker 4: the killing of women is one of the most scandalous
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Speaker 4: events in Australian history.
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Speaker 1: When I researched the killing.
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Speaker 4: Of women after Vicki's murder and the provocation trial, Adam,
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Speaker 4: you couldn't believe what I unearthed, Like I went to
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Speaker 4: the nineteen sixties and seventies, I found murder after murder
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Speaker 4: of women and it was being treated in the courts
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Speaker 4: of provocation like you just couldn't believe it. A bloke
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Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy two to three drives to Bendigo with
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Speaker 4: a rifle. He shoots his wife dead, and he goes
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Speaker 4: to trial and he gets three in a bit years
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Speaker 4: and the judge says that the woman who left him
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Speaker 4: did a harsh thing to him. He'd been violent to
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Speaker 4: her and her child. That was reported in the police interview.
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Speaker 4: Now that's fifty odd years ago, Adam. So when I
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Speaker 4: started researching, and I did to VICKI in nineteen eighty nine,
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Speaker 4: I think this is one of the great secrets of
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Speaker 4: Australian history, a bit like the treatment of Indigenous Australians
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Speaker 4: was only unearthed the Stolen Generation. Here we have this
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Speaker 4: truly dark and horrific story of the murder of women.
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Speaker 4: And you say, finally on this point, how was it
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Speaker 4: that it survived? Well, the truth is there were judges everywhere.
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Speaker 4: You didn't need that blow Tait and the online warriors
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Speaker 4: to diminish the rights of women. There were middle class
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Speaker 4: judges everywhere granted provocation defenses which would send a chill
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Speaker 4: down your spine if you wreck the stories, read the
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Speaker 4: transcripts as I've done.
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Speaker 1: So a really serious question that we have to confront. Well,
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Speaker 1: two points about that.
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Speaker 2: You talk about these middle class judges and so forth,
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Speaker 2: but they were bound by precedent, which is a guard
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Speaker 2: rail that judges took very serious still do. And Justice Hemple,
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Speaker 2: who was the judge in your sister's case, was a
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Speaker 2: reasonable guy of high reputation, but like many he was
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Speaker 2: just confined to the guard rails of president, and it
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Speaker 2: was your campaign to help the Lord jump those guardrails.
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Speaker 1: Well, look, I'm happy to take some credit for that, Adam.
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Speaker 4: I did challenge the premises, the principles on which provocation
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Speaker 4: was founded. I framed it in a way that I
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Speaker 4: thought explained the contradictions to the judiciary and the legal fraternity.
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Speaker 1: I put them in a corner.
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Speaker 4: These are the people who would claim to be affirmers
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Speaker 4: of human rights, aren't they. They want to defend innocent people.
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Speaker 4: They want to defend the human rights of people everywhere.
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Speaker 4: I said to them, what about the rights of women.
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Speaker 4: How can you be saying that Vicky Cleary does not
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Speaker 4: have the right to leave that bloke Peter Keo without
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Speaker 4: being accused of provoking him when he kills her at
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Speaker 4: her place of work.
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Speaker 1: And I said to them, tell me where the contradictions are.
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Speaker 1: Tell me if you can explain this.
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Speaker 4: When they go, oh, the law says, and I say, bullshit,
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Speaker 4: The law is not framed to say of the woman
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Speaker 4: you have no rights. What you've done is you've extended
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Speaker 4: the definition of provocation in a way that plays to sexism,
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Speaker 4: that plays to misogyny, and plays to patriarchy. And the notion, Adam,
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Speaker 4: that the man has control who is offended. When the
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Speaker 4: woman leaves a man, the man his human rights have
6:40
Speaker 4: been challenged. So what you've found in the courtroom was
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Speaker 4: judges were affirming this idea of the man having greater
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Speaker 4: rights than the woman.
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Speaker 1: Women reduced to property.
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Speaker 4: And the last point I make there again is that
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Speaker 4: on the steps of the court, if I'm proud of anything,
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Speaker 4: it's this, Adam, on the steps of the court in
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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine, I said, this verdict produces my sister
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Speaker 4: and all women to chattel. I said that nineteen eighty nine.
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Speaker 4: Now we've done away with provocation. But gee, there's a
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Speaker 4: lot that goes on in the society. The one could
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Speaker 4: say reduces women to chattels.
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Speaker 2: I think you're did right. What I'll also say is
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Speaker 2: there's been progress for white women in this country. The
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Speaker 2: murder rate of Indigenous women is another hidden shame in
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Speaker 2: this country. And I would argue that the law may
7:32
Speaker 2: have moved forward, but the policing of the indigenous community
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Speaker 2: leaves indigenous women completely vulnerable.
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Speaker 4: Well, Adam, the researchers will tell you, and people working
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Speaker 4: in the territory Indigenous women will tell you that the
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Speaker 4: rate of killing by white veala and violence by white
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Speaker 4: la against Indigenous women is exceedingly high. So when we
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Speaker 4: talk about violence against Indigenous women, we have to ask
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Speaker 4: the question, what is the data telling us about who
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Speaker 4: is inflicting the violence against Indigenous women? How many white
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Speaker 4: fella are responsible for violence against women?
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Speaker 1: So let's have that discussion.
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Speaker 4: And i'd say also on this point about the law,
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Speaker 4: the law has moved forward, but the killing of women
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Speaker 4: and the harassment and stalking of women is catastrophic. And
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Speaker 4: so here's my interpretation of it. Since second wave feminism,
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Speaker 4: more and more and more women have left men, they're
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Speaker 4: now saying we don't stay. But that means the number
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Speaker 4: of women in danger has increased exponentially, and so the
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Speaker 4: killings are all linked to women searching for their human rights.
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Speaker 1: There's an irony in that, surely, Well, I.
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Speaker 2: Think you're right. I mean, there are instances of white
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Speaker 2: fellows killing Indigenous women, but we're also seeing exactly the
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Speaker 2: same issue that your sister fell prey to, was current
9:03
Speaker 2: or ex intimate partners killing women with impunity, And it's
9:08
Speaker 2: the same thing there. And I know it's politically uncomfortable
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Speaker 2: for people. But I think what we're seeing here is
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Speaker 2: police saying in the Indigenous community, we can't keep you safe.
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Speaker 2: We're going to soft pedal these investigations. And there are
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Speaker 2: scores of these cases which are never resolved. But it's also,
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Speaker 2: might I say, a problem in the Indigenous community generally
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Speaker 2: that people don't trust the police, so they don't give evidence,
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Speaker 2: and so the killers are protected in this way as well.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to just be careful. This is not
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Speaker 4: about being politically correct in my case. I'm just conscious
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Speaker 4: of wanting to hear what indigenous community has to say
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Speaker 4: about this question. They will address the facts straight away
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Speaker 4: that it is a high percentage of white vela. And
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Speaker 4: I've asked this question before. Is the violence in indigenous
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Speaker 4: communities of the same kind of patriarchal order as it
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Speaker 4: is in the white flow community. Are there other factors
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Speaker 4: at work like location and policing problems, etc. So put
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Speaker 4: those all on the agenda. Let's have a thorough conversation
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Speaker 4: about them. No problem with me, But everywhere we look
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Speaker 4: we have to condemn whether it's black fella or white fella,
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Speaker 4: the way men in contemporary society are usurping the rights
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Speaker 4: of women with impunity.
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Speaker 2: And you know what, you talk about a war on
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Speaker 2: women happening still today, and I think that's one of
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Speaker 2: the key issues to deal with. And we're seeing this
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Speaker 2: rise of toxic masculinity where people on the internet influences
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Speaker 2: Andrew Tait is one Nick Fuentes in America are now
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Speaker 2: saying it's okay for young men and older men to
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Speaker 2: be misogynist and to push back somehow against the progress
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Speaker 2: that women have made in feeling safer and protected in
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Speaker 2: our community.
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Speaker 4: Well, look, I'm a bit inclined to say that those
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Speaker 4: fellas on the internet beyond line misogynist warriors are only
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Speaker 4: giving expression to modes of thinking adam that existed before.
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Speaker 4: How could Vicky Cleary's killer be found not guilty of
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Speaker 4: murder in nineteen eighty nine only if the society has
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Speaker 4: deeply embedded notions of control of women and deeply embedded misogyny.
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Speaker 4: So I think the misogyny today is no different from
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Speaker 4: the misogyny of the seventies and nineteen eighties, except that
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Speaker 4: it gets amplified and ventilated more. But it's worth a study,
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Speaker 4: it's worth examination. Let's go and examine how impactful that
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Speaker 4: is by comparison with the past.
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Speaker 1: Let's have a discussion about it.
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Speaker 4: But the most critical thing I think I'd say about it, Adam,
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Speaker 4: is that it tells you how deeply embedded hatred of
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Speaker 4: women is. Now, don't forget we can talk about the
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Speaker 4: takes of the world. Tony Abbott stood in front of
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Speaker 4: posters of Julia Gillard on the lawns of Parliament House,
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Speaker 4: declaring that she was a witch and a bitch. Like
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Speaker 4: I mean, if you've got the Prime Minister of Australia
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Speaker 4: being portrayed that way, don't be surprised if young men
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Speaker 4: gravitate towards misogyny.
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Speaker 2: So, Phil, your campaign really doesn't have an end. You're
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Speaker 2: just going to keep fighting until your last breath. By
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Speaker 2: the sounds, how do you measure success in what you've.
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Speaker 1: Done for me? It's a human rights question.
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Speaker 4: I'm not just some blokers out there saying, oh, my
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Speaker 4: sister was murdered. I want you to be aware of that.
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Speaker 4: The circumstances were terrible, the verdict was terrible. It's shocking,
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Speaker 4: it's harmedness, it's traumatic.
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Speaker 1: I want to go further than that.
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Speaker 4: I want the society to properly grapple with the depth
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Speaker 4: of the misogyny and distrust and hatred of women and
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Speaker 4: the usurping of women's rights. So for me, Adam, it's
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Speaker 4: just a standard human rights question of the same order
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Speaker 4: as my position on Palistine the killing of Palestinian women
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Speaker 4: and children. I believe that's a major question for our time,
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Speaker 4: as is the struggles of indigenous people. So for me,
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Speaker 4: it goes on and on around human rights. It's got
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Speaker 4: to be seen as a human rights question. And so
13:22
Speaker 4: a segue there, it's time the Prime Minister of Australia
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Speaker 4: said one, we have to apologize for the failures of
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Speaker 4: the past in relation to women, just as we apologized
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Speaker 4: for the Stolen Generation and so many other settings where
13:38
Speaker 4: children and gay people are on it goes have been persecuted.
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Speaker 4: Let's have that apology first and then move to the
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Speaker 4: big discussion.
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Speaker 1: Put it front and center so that every online worrier knows.
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Speaker 4: We know it's a serious question. We know you are
13:54
Speaker 4: not allowed to be talking like that. You want to
13:57
Speaker 4: talk hate crimes. There they are confronting you. I want
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Speaker 4: the system and the politicians to be principled, not hypocritical,
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Speaker 4: and we'll have a better society if we grapple with
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Speaker 4: that question, we'll grapple.
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Speaker 1: With all the other questions better as well.
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Speaker 2: I think that's a great point you raise, that we
14:14
Speaker 2: need to make institutional change because currently I deal with
14:17
Speaker 2: police a lot, who are the first responders in this
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Speaker 2: domestic violence war, if you like, and they're fronting up,
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Speaker 2: crossing the threshold into people's lives. They may have six
14:30
Speaker 2: months on the van, they're suddenly dealing with people that
14:32
Speaker 2: are older than them with problems that are deep seated.
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Speaker 2: They try to do their best with a band aid.
14:38
Speaker 2: They come back a few weeks later, the woman's been
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Speaker 2: murdered and there's an outcry against the police. But we're
14:44
Speaker 2: not taking ownership of this at the institutional level.
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Speaker 4: Oh look, how many women have been murdered in a
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Speaker 4: circumstance where every red flag is flying at them. Let's
15:00
Speaker 4: be honest about it straight. It's not something we have
15:04
Speaker 4: to acquivver. It's as clear as a bell. Hannah Clark
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Speaker 4: in Brisbane, How did that happen? How did a woman
15:13
Speaker 4: who told everyone she was in danger end up dead
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Speaker 4: with her children? It's truly amazing, It should be amazing,
15:22
Speaker 4: but it's not because we are not addressing the question.
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Speaker 4: The fundamental question, for example, is separation is now the
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Speaker 4: most dangerous time for a woman.
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Speaker 1: Can't we just agree on that fact.
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Speaker 4: Tell the Prime Minister to stand up and say separation
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Speaker 4: has become the most dangerous time for every woman in
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Speaker 4: Australia and in the world, and it's occurred in the
15:45
Speaker 4: aftermath of second wave feminism. That's a fact. These are facts.
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Speaker 4: They're not in dispute. So Prime Minister, what do we
15:52
Speaker 4: do about that? Well, we have a system in place,
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Speaker 4: policing in place, Adam that accepts.
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Speaker 1: That's the first premise.
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Speaker 4: When's a woman in danger, when she separates, most in danger.
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Speaker 4: So we're going to put into place a total strategy
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Speaker 4: all the way through the society that grapples with this
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Speaker 4: question and says these men are going to be stopped.
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Speaker 1: They're going to be stopped.
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Speaker 4: And of course bio laws are part of it, parole
16:16
Speaker 4: laws are part of it, but they're not the crucial question.
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Speaker 4: The crucial question is when you raised earlier, where do
16:21
Speaker 4: the attitudes come from? So address the attitudes, but don't
16:24
Speaker 4: be scared to tell the men of Australia we've got
16:26
Speaker 4: an historical problem.
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Speaker 2: That's a great point you make phil separation is the
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Speaker 2: most dangerous time for a woman, and currently we have
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Speaker 2: this paper wall called the Apprehended Violence Order, which is
16:39
Speaker 2: supposed to keep them safe, and police and courts are reluctant.
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is.
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Speaker 2: Across the board. I know some very good domestic violence
16:48
Speaker 2: liaison officers and police forces who do protect women, but
16:51
Speaker 2: the system is still paper thin. That's not a pun
16:54
Speaker 2: it's exactly what it is. So I'd like to see
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Speaker 2: more men either given anklets, electronic anklets, bracelets to monitor
17:05
Speaker 2: to their movements so if they're breaching the order, police
17:09
Speaker 2: will know instantly and lock the bastards up for a short,
17:13
Speaker 2: long period of time.
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Speaker 4: It's funny because I've not really pursued that line, you know,
17:20
Speaker 4: that punitive line so heavily historically, But when you say it,
17:26
Speaker 4: I'm not offended by the notion. You know, I'm not
17:28
Speaker 4: going to say, oh, that's a law and order freak show.
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Speaker 1: We can't pursue that.
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Speaker 4: I have said things like that historically, but we've reached
17:37
Speaker 4: the point where it's a chronic and incredibly profound problem.
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Speaker 1: We've got to have new strategies now.
17:45
Speaker 4: There has to be more policing for example, we have
17:47
Speaker 4: to have better risk assessment around this question of men
17:52
Speaker 4: who are dangerous to women. Now, the authorities could say
17:55
Speaker 4: to us, oh, you can't stop all of them, and
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Speaker 4: I say, you haven't even tried. You didn't try with
18:02
Speaker 4: that bloke Baxter and had a clerk, did you didn't
18:04
Speaker 4: even try?
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Speaker 1: You didn't try.
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Speaker 4: And I could name you off the cuff another ten
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Speaker 4: twenty women and say every one of those cases was
18:12
Speaker 4: a murder waiting to happen. And if any one of
18:14
Speaker 4: those women, if I named you twenty had come to me,
18:17
Speaker 4: I would have saved them, but not by heroism. I
18:21
Speaker 4: would have said, this is what you must do because
18:24
Speaker 4: this man is a killer. But we don't have a
18:27
Speaker 4: system in place to enact those procedures. And that's an
18:30
Speaker 4: allusion to the sort of settings we've got to have solutions.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but we.
18:35
Speaker 2: Have technology now that if you go and steal a
18:38
Speaker 2: packet of Smarties in a shop, there's cameras that will
18:40
Speaker 2: follow you up the street and you'll be pinched right
18:43
Speaker 2: before you get too far. But imagine this if your
18:46
Speaker 2: sister was alive today and this individual was harassing her,
18:51
Speaker 2: and she got a Navy O and it came with
18:53
Speaker 2: electronic monitoring. Would she still be alive today. It's a
18:56
Speaker 2: brutal question, but I think it's important because we can
18:59
Speaker 2: do this now.
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Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you a bit of context.
19:03
Speaker 4: The man who murdered our sit to Vicky outside her
19:07
Speaker 4: place of work had been to that kindergarten on a
19:10
Speaker 4: number of occasions in a threatening manner. He was threatening
19:15
Speaker 4: the kindergarten director and others said he was threatening. There
19:18
Speaker 4: wasn't a system, a cultural setting around, and procedures in
19:23
Speaker 4: place to enact a safety strategy.
19:26
Speaker 1: So there's the first step.
19:28
Speaker 4: If we had that in place in a more comprehensive way,
19:32
Speaker 4: we'd move to all of these solutions, put them all
19:35
Speaker 4: on the table. But until we come to the acceptance
19:39
Speaker 4: that when there are red flags flying, we must do something,
19:42
Speaker 4: we won't even consider all those possibilities. But I'm with
19:45
Speaker 4: you on the consideration of the possibilities, and we can
19:49
Speaker 4: do them. Yes, there are blokes there who should be
19:52
Speaker 4: stopped and could have been stopped. The bloke well, we
19:56
Speaker 4: can't go into some that aren't even before the courts,
19:59
Speaker 4: but there are numerous before the courts and have been
20:02
Speaker 4: before the courts, which are scandalous, Adam, scam.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, because they've already applied technological solutions, for instance,
20:10
Speaker 2: to speed camera operators in our country, whereby now there's
20:14
Speaker 2: private companies that set up on the side of the
20:15
Speaker 2: road and ping you for speeding. Why can't we have
20:19
Speaker 2: this resources argument, this technology argument doesn't watch with me.
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Speaker 2: I think it's time to first recognize what you're saying,
20:26
Speaker 2: that separation is the most dangerous time for women and
20:29
Speaker 2: put in place strategies that address that using best practice
20:33
Speaker 2: and best technology. Let's put that all to one side
20:36
Speaker 2: for a moment, because we tend to dehumanize victims in
20:38
Speaker 2: this discussion. Tell me about Vicky as a person.
20:44
Speaker 1: Well, Adam, it's quite remarkable.
20:47
Speaker 4: The circumstances of Vicky's arrival in the world were like
20:51
Speaker 4: magical in the Cleary clan, in that my mother had
20:57
Speaker 4: four boys. The third boy died in infancy at about
21:02
Speaker 4: forty eight hours on the planet. Mum had another boy.
21:06
Speaker 4: She called that boy the same name Perry. And then
21:10
Speaker 4: lo and behold, after the four boys, this little girl arrives.
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Speaker 1: And it was so exciting that.
21:18
Speaker 4: My mother's mother, Gladys, a working class factory girl from Brunswick,
21:23
Speaker 4: living with a former prisoner of war, writes a letter
21:27
Speaker 4: and tells mom how excited she is about the birth
21:31
Speaker 4: of the girl. So Vicky's arrival was very distinctive and unique,
21:36
Speaker 4: and then she just blossomed into this energetic, lively young woman,
21:41
Speaker 4: you know. And she and Mum got on so well.
21:44
Speaker 4: They loved going out to white pot plants and flowers
21:48
Speaker 4: and the like, and they just were like two peas
21:51
Speaker 4: in a pod, really. And so Vicky was lively in
21:56
Speaker 4: that she played sports, She did all of these physical things,
22:00
Speaker 4: ran fast, and played with tennis and everything else.
22:03
Speaker 1: So she was very distinctive character.
22:07
Speaker 4: And it's really instructive that when I had played my
22:11
Speaker 4: two hundredth game in nineteen eighty seven, she was there
22:14
Speaker 4: with me. It was June, only a couple of months
22:17
Speaker 4: and before she's murdered, and she came up into the
22:20
Speaker 4: rooms after the game, my two hundredth game nineteen eighty seven.
22:25
Speaker 4: She's twenty five, she separated from this bloke. She's really
22:28
Speaker 4: happy about life, and she blew the candles out on
22:32
Speaker 4: the cake, and I was just thinking.
22:34
Speaker 1: How lucky I was to have her in my life.
22:38
Speaker 4: You know. A time passed and six days before her murder,
22:43
Speaker 4: she jumped off the Sydney Road tram, the famous number
22:47
Speaker 4: ninety tram. She saw me crossing Sydney Road with my
22:51
Speaker 4: two daughters, Sarah and Beth were about seven and six.
22:54
Speaker 4: She jumped off the tram, ran through the car park,
22:57
Speaker 4: yelling out Philip, Philip, and she stopped and talked to
23:01
Speaker 4: my daughters, and we were having such a lively time.
23:05
Speaker 4: I was so happy about the fact that she was
23:08
Speaker 4: free of this bloke, but I didn't know about the
23:12
Speaker 4: stalking and harassment she was enduring. But as a girl,
23:16
Speaker 4: I mean, I miss her. She would have been such
23:18
Speaker 4: a good auntie to my two daughters. And then I've
23:21
Speaker 4: had two sons subsequently who've never met her.
23:24
Speaker 1: But I should say this also.
23:27
Speaker 4: You know, when we won the premiership in the VFA
23:29
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty eight, I spoke to the players a
23:33
Speaker 4: year after Vicki's murder, and I said to them in
23:36
Speaker 4: the Essendon Football Ground rooms, nothing would bring Vicki back,
23:41
Speaker 4: but a victory, a premiership would ease some of the
23:44
Speaker 4: pain that we'd endure it a year earlier and in
23:48
Speaker 4: the committal hearing and behind me was the Prime Minister
23:52
Speaker 4: of Australia.
23:53
Speaker 1: Robert J. Hawk.
23:56
Speaker 4: Hawk came back into the rooms after the game and
23:59
Speaker 4: told me how powerful the way I'd devote Vicki's image
24:04
Speaker 4: and memory was, and he said to me, she must.
24:07
Speaker 1: Have been a special girl.
24:09
Speaker 4: So I suppose the point is, Adam, that there was
24:12
Speaker 4: the Prime Minister of Australia being made aware of this girl,
24:16
Speaker 4: Vicki Cleary. And now she's become emblematic of the campaign
24:21
Speaker 4: to end violence against women. She's made her mark sadly
24:26
Speaker 4: as a consequence of her murder, she's made a mark
24:30
Speaker 4: as an emblem, a clarion call around the question of
24:34
Speaker 4: violence against women.
24:35
Speaker 1: But her memory lives on in that kind.
24:38
Speaker 4: Of Buddhist tradition and I love her for that, and
24:41
Speaker 4: we talk about her all the time, every day. Every
24:44
Speaker 4: week we're having a yarn with my having with my
24:47
Speaker 4: sisters in particular and Lizzie, who you will talk to
24:50
Speaker 4: in the second episode, So that was my sister Vicki.
24:56
Speaker 2: Tell me, what does Vicki's memory bring to your campaign
24:59
Speaker 2: that's ongoing about making women safe?
25:03
Speaker 4: Well, the his story is emblematic a representative of what drives.
25:11
Speaker 1: Men's violence against women. That is, women.
25:14
Speaker 4: Asserting their independence. What Vicky Cleary did was she pursued
25:19
Speaker 4: her independence. And every woman murdered in Australia and across
25:24
Speaker 4: around the world by a man known to them is
25:26
Speaker 4: murdered because she has asserted her independence. Overwhelmingly, that comes
25:31
Speaker 4: in the form of separation. Woman leaves a man, Woman
25:36
Speaker 4: leaves a man and he kills her. Overwhelmingly, if you
25:40
Speaker 4: go to the murders in Australia, they are in the
25:42
Speaker 4: context of separation.
25:44
Speaker 1: So Vicki is a symbol of that.
25:47
Speaker 4: And equally she's also a symbol of the horrific nature
25:51
Speaker 4: of the justice system historically and the way the society
25:55
Speaker 4: has responded to vannes against women. What the courts did,
25:59
Speaker 4: what the law did to my sister Vicki was inhumane.
26:04
Speaker 1: It was disgrace.
26:05
Speaker 4: It was barbaric to think that she would be accused
26:09
Speaker 4: of provoking that man to kill her. The bloke who
26:12
Speaker 4: waited for an hour for her as she was parking
26:15
Speaker 4: her car in Cameron Street, Coburg outside the kindergarten, is unbelievable.
26:21
Speaker 1: It deserves to be condemned.
26:23
Speaker 4: So in Vicki's story is the whole story about violence
26:28
Speaker 4: against women, about men's desire to own women, to treat
26:32
Speaker 4: women as channels patriarchal assumptions, and the state and the
26:36
Speaker 4: society's failure to properly address and affirm the rights of women.
26:42
Speaker 1: So there you have it. It is all there.
26:45
Speaker 4: The Vicky Cleary story is a profound story about the
26:50
Speaker 4: failure of the state and about the abuse by men,
26:54
Speaker 4: the harassment by men, and the refusal of men in
26:57
Speaker 4: contemporary times to accept a woman's right to independence. Look, Adam,
27:03
Speaker 4: it's great to be having this conversation about Vicki and
27:06
Speaker 4: the campaign to end violence against women.
27:09
Speaker 1: It's been a long journey.
27:11
Speaker 4: The great thing is that we are all talking about
27:14
Speaker 4: the question as you are with me. I want to
27:17
Speaker 4: remind everyone that they can gather at the Coburg Ground
27:20
Speaker 4: on Sunday, May twenty fourth to remember Vicki and all
27:25
Speaker 4: the women that we've lost to violent men, and to
27:28
Speaker 4: build on the campaign that we've generated after the last
27:32
Speaker 4: thirty forty fifty years.
27:38
Speaker 2: That was Phil Cleary on the legacy of the late
27:41
Speaker 2: Vicki Cleary his sister. Next episode, I'll be speaking to
27:45
Speaker 2: Vicky's younger sister, Lizzie Cleary, on the impact of losing
27:48
Speaker 2: her sibling.
27:49
Speaker 5: For them to see my sister the way that she
27:53
Speaker 5: was spoken about in the courts, pretty much saying that
27:55
Speaker 5: she caused her.
27:56
Speaker 2: Death, and how after nearly four decades she's finding her
28:01
Speaker 2: voice as an advocate.
28:03
Speaker 5: I want to keep on telling their story and I
28:05
Speaker 5: want to help other people out there, want to help
28:08
Speaker 5: other women as well.
28:10
Speaker 2: That's next time on Real Crime with Adam Shand thanks
28:13
Speaker 2: for listening.
28:25
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28:29
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