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Zootopia Exposed! (Part One) · Revisionist History

• 0:24
  Speaker 1: On a recent snowy day, I took my four-and-a-half-year-old to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a movie theater on Manhattan's Upper West Side. This was
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: only her second time ever at the movies. She was
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: very excited. I bought her a large tub of popcorn.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: The theater was crowded. We were there to see Disney's
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Zootopia II, a film that is now the highest-grossing animated
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: movie of all time. We sat enraptured for the better
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: part of two hours. And at the end, she turned
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to me and said, Thank you, Daddy. And I said
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: to her, Oh, this wasn't for you. This was for me.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I'm on assignment. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: The story I'm about to tell you is the strangest
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Hollywood story you have ever heard. It makes no sense.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: It invites all manner of absurd speculation. It's going to
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: take us two episodes to unravel it. And even then,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: your mind will be in such a swirl that you
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: will almost certainly feel compelled to see Zootopia II for yourself.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: And if you've already seen it, to grab any one
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: of your available children and see it again and to
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: whisper under your breath, when you think your little companion
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: isn't listening. WTF. All of this started when we got
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: a call from Angus Fletcher, saying a friend of his
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: needed to speak to me. It was urgent. The friend
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: had a story to tell, a story with so many layers,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the friend said, that there was no way to do
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: it justice in a single episode. Two minimum. For future reference,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: if you need to get my attention, this is the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: way to do it.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: All right, can you hear me?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: There you are.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Gary, Angus, the gang is back together. Right away, I
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: hopped on a Zoom with the two of them.
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: If you want, I mean, I can tell you how
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: the story started, and then Gary, you want to, do
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: you want to? So, okay.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: All right, jump in.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: on more revisionist history episodes than anyone else. Our three-part
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: rewrite of The Little Mermaid, In Defense of Paw Patrol, and,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: and this is relevant to the story I'm about to
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: tell you, we did a series of episodes a few
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed screenwriters about
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: their best idea that never made it to the screen.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: And Angus came on to talk about an absolutely bananas
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: sci-fi project he worked on with a good friend of his.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: the Hollywood screenwriter, Gary Goldman. And during that episode, I
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: concluded that not only is Angus a genius, but Gary
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: is a genius too. Anyway, back to the matter at hand.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: So basically, I get a phone call from Gary, and
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: Gary and I are old friends. We've worked together on
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary's one of the most
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: protege of the novelist Walker Percy, went to Brandeis, spent
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: some time working in a hospital in Israel during the
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Yom Kippur War, ended up in Hollywood, and has worked
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: with everyone. Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron, Ridley Scott, David Fincher,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: So Gary calls me up and he goes, Angus, have
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: you seen Disney's latest movie?
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Here, Angus is referring to the first Zootopia film, which
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: came out in 2016. featuring a rabbit named Judy Hopps
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: in a world inhabited entirely by animals, and who have
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: of predators. It's very good.
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: Zootopia, a gleaming city, where animals of all breeds, predator
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: and prey alike, live together in peace and harmony.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Zootopia did very well. It grossed a zillion dollars and
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Gary watched all
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: this success closely.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: And it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: family event. I can send you the pictures of us
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: drinking champagne when Zootopia won the Academy Award. I mean,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: this is our lost daughter who.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Is doing great.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Why was this such a big deal for Gary? Here's
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: what he told Angus.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: And so he tells me the story of how he
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: goes to the Disney, how he pitched him this idea,
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  Speaker 4: how he wrote it down on a physical document, which
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: he gave to Disney. And he goes, I think they
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: might have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document?
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: And Gary goes to me, OK, well, in my pitch,
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: in Disney's movie, it says, quote, you want to be
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: an elephant when you grow up?
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: You can be an elephant.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: And in Gary's pitch, it says, this is going to
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: take place in a land where, quote, an animal can
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: be whatever it wants to be. And in Disney's movie,
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: it says, this is going to take place in a
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: land where, quote, anybody can be anything. And then I
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says
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  Speaker 4: to me, in my pitch, it's called Zootopia. And amazingly,
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: in the Disney movie, it's called Zootopia.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Wait, okay, so many things to pick up on. Gary,
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  Speaker 1: take me back to the beginning about the origins of
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: this idea of a movie called Zootopia. What period of
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: time are we talking about here?
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: 2000. 2000.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I have two sons, and my sons were, I
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: don't know, four and six. And, you know, at that time,
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  Speaker 2: you start thinking about, oh, what can I do creatively
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: that my kids can relate to? Um, and, um, so
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: I came up in under interesting, very specific circumstances with
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the idea for Zootopia. And I'll tell you, when I
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: came up with the word Zootopia, I was elated and
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I ran into my house and I ran upstairs and
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I talked to my wife. I said, you're not going
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  Speaker 2: to believe I've got the most incredible title. I've got
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: the most incredible idea. It's called Zootopia. And she said,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think it's such a great idea.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I said, trust me, trust me. It's a really, it's
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: a really good name. In fact, we can't say this
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: word in front of the kids. Because if we say
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: this word in front of the kids, they're going to
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: go to school. And a lot of their, the parents
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: of these kids are in show business. And then the
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: word is going to get out. And it's very hard
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: to protect a title. So we just have to.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Keep it secret.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we had to keep it secret.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Fast forward nine years. Goldman's doing a project with a
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: comic book legend, Stan Lee, for Disney. And he goes
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: to the Disney exec he's working with, and he says,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I have this idea. Gives them an eight-page outline of
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: the concept. It's called Loony. It's about an animator who
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings of
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the animals who are going to inhabit the Zootopia world. Roscoe,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: the hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious. His sidekick Mimi,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: the squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic. Goldman
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: thinks that this is the best idea he's ever had
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: for a movie. And Angus agrees.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: So first of all, I just want to point out
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: that you have the writer of Total Recall, which is
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: all time, telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: to Zootopia. That should give you some indication.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And, you know, Gary's legitimately a story genius. Why is
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: Zootopia so good? Well, because what you're really trying to
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  Speaker 4: do with a story is not just create a plot.
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  Speaker 4: You're trying to create a world.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: That's why Star Wars is so brilliant. Because... The movie, great.
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  Speaker 4: But really what you want is you want to wander
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: around with lightsabers and Darth Vader and the Force and
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: the Jedi and Leia and all that kind of stuff.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: And Zootopia is exactly the same thing. Zootopia is a
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  Speaker 4: mythic universe. When Gary first told me this, he sent
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: me basically a Bible, which went on for hundreds and
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  Speaker 4: hundreds of slides, explaining to me all the sort of
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  Speaker 4: complex mythiography behind Zootopia. So I'm not going to pretend
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: to be able to kind of expound that to you here.
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  Speaker 4: It was like, having a conversation with like Joseph Campbell
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  Speaker 4: or something. But basically the point is, is that you
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  Speaker 4: have an entire universe in which these animals are there
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  Speaker 4: to expose the lie that you can be whatever it
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  Speaker 4: is that you want to be. I mean, that's basically
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  Speaker 4: the twist is that we are all told these fables
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  Speaker 4: in America growing up, which is you can be whatever
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  Speaker 4: you want to be.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Gary.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the idea here is all of us tell
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  Speaker 2: our kids pretty much, you have to decide whether or
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  Speaker 2: not to tell your kids, you can be whatever you
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  Speaker 2: want to be when you grow up. And there's enormous
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: pressure to say it, even though we know as adults,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical thinking
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  Speaker 2: masquerading as good advice. So do you want to send
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: your kids out into the world knowing nothing except you
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  Speaker 2: can be whatever you want to be, and then you
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  Speaker 2: just go out there and try, try, try, try, try,
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  Speaker 2: and then you encounter real life and you're not prepared
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  Speaker 2: for it? On the other hand, if you don't teach
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: your kids that, they're going to be totally out-competed by
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  Speaker 2: all the other kids in the class who have been
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: told they can be whatever they want. they want to be.
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  Speaker 2: So I wanted to basically surround these cliches of conventional
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: wisdom with ridiculous, zany, cautionary tales about animals who are
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: told they can be whatever they want to be and
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter in life.
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  Speaker 1: The world where all this took place was Zootopia. Gary
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: takes his idea to the executive he's working with at Disney.
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  Speaker 1: The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this is interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Should I give it to the folks over at Animation?
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  Speaker 2: I said, submit it. He said, okay. And I got
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: my papers together and I put it in the portfolio
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: and I handed it to him. And then I hear
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: from my agent, they passed.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: That's all.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: They passed.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Six years go by. And then one day, Gary gets
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: a call from one of his sons.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Both of my sons are in the car together. They say, Dad,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: we're driving down the freeway and we see a billboard.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: And you're not going to believe it, but it has
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: your loony characters on it. I said, my loony characters?
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: What are you talking about? He says, yeah, you know,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: it's a giant billboard and it's got your characters on it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: And I said, what's the name of the movie? And
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: he says, Zootopia. And he'd never heard the word Zootopia.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: He called me up to tell me that he'd seen
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: my Looney characters. So, you know, I was flabbergasted, obviously.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: The Goldmans go and see Zootopia at the Grove in
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles. They can't believe it. As far as Gary
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena, has
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: been turned into Nick Wilde, the cynical, obnoxious fox. And
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: his optimistic, curvaceous squirrel Mimi has become the optimistic, curvaceous
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: rabbit Judy Hopps. Goldman gets one of the biggest and
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: baddest of law firms, Quinn Emanuel, to represent him. Quinn
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Emanuel does not usually take suits like this, but for Gary,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: they make an exception. That's how compelling his case seems.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: So Quinn Emanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement. The
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: case goes on for seven years. Everyone who is anyone
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: at Disney is deposed. What's Disney's defense? Is it they
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: never saw it?
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, never saw it.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: So they're claiming this is a series of incredible coincidences.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: That's right. Yes, they call it independent courage.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: And what happens? Goldman loses. He appeals, loses again. He
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: switches to state court, loses again. the courts find that
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the similarities between Gary's idea and Zootopia didn't look like
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: copyright infringement. And the case is dismissed before the courts
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: ever get to the question of whether Disney actually used
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Goldman's pitch. So the Goldmans give up the fight.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Now, there are a million things to say here. The
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible under current case
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: law for a writer to win a case like this
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: against a studio. In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: looked at over 50 copyright infringement cases writers brought against
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Hollywood studios. And in every case, the plaintiff lost. The
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: law basically says you have to show that your work
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: was copied word for word. And of course, you can
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: steal someone's idea without copying it word for word. I
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: could go on and on about this, but I won't.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Because what matters is what happens next.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: Then Gary calls me up a few months ago and
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: he says, Angus, have you seen the sequel to Zootopia?
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: And I said, no, Gary, I have not. What happens
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: in the sequel to Zootopia?
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Exactly. That's the question. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia?
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Everyone has a theory. Why do you think I dragged
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: my daughter to see Zootopia 2? Because I have a theory.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Gary Goldman has a theory. The team of movie buffs
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and literary analysts we put on the case have a theory.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: You will have a theory too once you finish listening.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: And why does everyone have a theory? Because there is
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: absolutely something weird going on with Zootopia 2 that requires theory.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: That's after the break. At what point do you hear
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that there's a sequel in the works?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, they were beginning to make the sequel while
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: we were still involved in the lawsuit.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: We're back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman, and the
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's really interesting because the main character in the
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: sequel to Zootopia is called Gary the Snake.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: And I thought, well, that's, obviously they're just planning to,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: you know, don't make a character a snake unless you're
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: planning to, I mean.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: So your immediate thought when you heard of this character,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Gary the Snake, is that it was.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: An attack on me. It's a personal attack on me.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Now, of course, this could just be a coincidence. Gary
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: is a common name. There are lots of Garys in
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the world. So maybe it makes sense there should be
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: what the Zootopia 2 screenwriter said in a publicity interview
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: with the New York Times. He's named Gary because I
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: think Gary is a hilarious name. I apologize to the
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Garys of the world. But multiple times over the years,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: when I've been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: But needless to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: years of legal hell, Do not see things this way.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Who gets the angriest among all the Goldmans? Who gets
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the angriest?
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, well, my younger son. I can't show you, but
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: I'm in my office and there's a door that has
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: in anger after one of these rulings.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: The repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest son.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Do you know what the psychological principle here is called?
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Transactive memory. You know how in families... We store our
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: memories in other members of our family. That's why the
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: family unit is so powerful. But you guys have transactive anger.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So you hear about this and you think you have
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: a sense of foreboding. And where do you see... When
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: did you go see Zootopia II in the theater?
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, the day before it opened. I mean, we tried
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: to sneak... You know, we tried to get tickets to screening.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere?
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: Oh, no.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: No, they don't talk to me. I mean, I'm... No, no, no, no.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I didn't ask them. We're not in touch.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife, Judy, their two
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: grown sons, gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: just east of San Francisco.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: So we go there, we're sitting, and we watch as
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: this story unfolds. And my wife says, he looks like you.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I said, what are you talking about? The snake looks
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: like me? She says, yeah, don't you see? She's an artist.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: And so she says, yeah, I can see how that,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I think they, you know, in any case, she thinks
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Gary the snake looks like me.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Now, Does Gary DeSnake really look like Gary Goldman? Or
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: is this just the Goldmans being paranoid? Well, let me
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: describe Gary Goldman. He's 72. He has large, expressive eyes.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: A self-effacing, understated manner. I mean, you've heard him speak.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Match that voice to your mental image of your kindly uncle.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: And what is Gary DeSnake? Weirdly, a nice snake. A
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: sweetheart snake. Large, expressive eyes. a self-effacing, understated manner, middle-aged,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: with one fang instead of two, conceptually defanged, as the
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: middle-aged so often are.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Oh, Gary.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Gary the Snake.
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: And your last name?
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: The Snake. Everything is going to be okay.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Gary says that after the movie came out, all kinds
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: of people texted him to say, Gary, the snake looks
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: just like you. And when I went to see Zootopia
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: II with my daughter, Right after I'd interviewed Gary, that
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: was my first thought as well. Good Lord, it's the
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: same guy.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, so, well, Gary doesn't have bad teeth. So the
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: fang was a metaphor, but yeah. So Gary the snake
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: is sweet. His eyebrows kind of go up a little bit.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: His eyes kind of droop a little bit.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I called up Goldman's lawyer, Deborah Drews.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous. The snake
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: kind of looks Jewish.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, the snake looks Jewish.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:34
  Speaker 6: 100%.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: I'm Jewish, so no. Anyway, yes, I did think the
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: snake looked Jewish. And I thought the way he behaved
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: and the way he moved. Gary Goldman's a sweet person.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: He's a sweet guy. So every once in a while,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: that just that Southern charm. And there's a little, you know, like.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: when you're playing a stringed instrument and bend the string
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: and it gives you a little, it gives you a
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: little twang. That's Gary, you know, charming, sweet. So, yeah,
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: that was Gary the Snake. I mean, it was clear
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: to me. And I think it probably is clear to
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: the people who worked on both films, just saying.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, a good chunk of the movie
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: takes place in a swampy coastal area called Marsh Market.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: And I'm quoting now from a review of the movie.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Marsh Market could well be the Zootopia equivalent of New Orleans.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Everybody thinks this. Here's the LA Times critic Matt Brennan
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: interviewing the screenwriter and director of Zootopia before the movie
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: came out.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: You mentioned Marshmarket, and I have to say, as a
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: longtime New Orleanian, I loved seeing the Zootopia version of Bayou.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Why does all this matter? Because Gary Goldman is from
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: New Orleans, and because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: I know what you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: into scandal. That's after the break. Screenwriters put caricatures of
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: real people in movies all the time. Many people believe,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: for example, that Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: is Lorne Michaels, the creator of Saturday Night Live. The
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: villain of Ian Fleming's James Bond thriller Goldfinger, rumor has it,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: was based on the modernist architect Erno Goldfinger, who Fleming
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: was feuding with at the time because Goldfinger built an
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: incredibly ugly house down the road from him. So what?
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: If the Walt Disney Company wants to make a movie
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: about a middle-aged Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: that's not a crime. But now we get to the
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: heart of the issue, which is What is Zootopia II
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: really about? Well, it's a movie about intellectual property. Zootopia
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: exists because of incredibly sophisticated weather walls that make it
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: possible for animals from all over the world to live
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: in one place. The walls were invented by Agnes de Snake,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Gary's great-grandmother, who wanted to build a world where all
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: animals could live in harmony. But her patent was stolen
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: by the evil lynxes who run Zootopia. Big, chubby evil lynxes.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Literally corporate fat cats. Listen to how Paupert Lynxley describes
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: his family's scheme.
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: But when my great-grandfather saw what her idea could be worth,
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: he plotted to steal her plans for himself.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: The lynxes then cast all the reptiles out of Zootopia
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: to keep their theft a secret. And the plot of
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hopps and
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Nick Wilde teaming up with Gary DeSnake to get the
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: patent back, restore the Snake family's good name, and bring
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: reptiles back into the city of Zootopia. The whole plot
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: of Zootopia II, the entire movie, is about repairing the
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: damage done by the theft of intellectual property.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Snakes aren't the bad guys.
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: I have to set things right. And when I do,
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: my family.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Able to come home. So, to recap, just as the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Walt Disney Company emerges from a bruising seven-year legal battle
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: in which a Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: that he invented Zootopia and had his idea stolen by
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: the corporate fat cats at the Walt Disney Company, the
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Walt Disney Company comes out with a sequel to Zootopia
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: in which the central character, is a Jewish snake from
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Louisiana named Gary whose family invented Zootopia and had their
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: idea stolen by a bunch of corporate fat cats. This
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: is why Gary Goldman called Angus Fletcher and why Angus
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Fletcher called me.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory of what Disney did
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: to Gary in Zootopia 1, but it's an allegory that's
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: created by Disney. So anyway, that was the point where
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: my mind imploded and I knew we had to call Malcolm.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: This is why I love Angus. Because whenever his mind implodes,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: he thinks of me. The movie's over.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: The Goldmans walk out.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: And what do you guys do? Do you guys go
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: out to dinner and discuss? What do you do? How
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: do you download all this information?
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Well, Malcolm, I don't think we are filled with questions
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: and doubts. We're now in the twilight zone. Disney has
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: spent over $ 300 million producing and marketing this movie. And
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: it seems to me that it's about me and this lawsuit.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: It really sucks. And we're trying to figure out how
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: this happened. Whose idea was it? Is the company behind this?
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Is it a visual statement of the company? Did the
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: writer who were carried over from the last movie, did
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: they have something to do with this?
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: If you think that all this is paranoid nonsense, then
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I suggest once again, you go to see Zootopia 2
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: for yourself. And there will come a point, trust me,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: and you will turn to the little person next to you,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: nursing their popcorn, and you will cover their ears... and
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: say out loud, along with everyone else in the crowded theater, WTF.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Did they sneak it past the Disney legal department? Does
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: the Disney legal department know about it? If the Disney
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: legal department knows about it, why did they approve it?
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: If the Disney higher-ups know about it, why did they
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: approve it?
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: No way Disney legal department knew about this. Right, Angus?
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: No way.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: No way. We can remove that possibility This sounds to me,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: so somehow, somehow, Gary the Snake, the positive portrayal of
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Gary the Snake sneaks past the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: This is unbelievable. We're now in a heist movie. They
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: sneaked the idea out of Disney, out of Burbank.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Malcolm, why did the studio make a movie that can
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: be interpreted as reopening a case that was settled? They won.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: And now they're going to talk about it again. And
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to me, all this does, from a personal and legal
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: point of view, it invites speculation.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Were there clues in the original litigation that might help
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: us make sense of what happened? I checked with Deborah Drews,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Gary's lawyer. Are there copies in the public realm of
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: those depositions of all those Disney guys? Do you have
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: copies of them?
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I have a couple of answers for you. But one
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: of them is that Disney was very scrupulous about obtaining
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: a protective order in which pretty much anything that Disney
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: said was proprietary or confidential or trade secret. would have
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: to be filed under seal, so not accessible to the public.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: So then I thought, well, I'll just go to the top.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: I emailed the CEO of Disney himself, the redoubtable Bob Iger. Hi, Bob.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Happy New Year. I had become obsessed with Zootopia II
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: and the question of whether the movie is an encoded
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: apology to Gary Goldman. It's maybe my favorite Hollywood story ever.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: And as you may know, Gary Goldman is interpreting the
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: film's hidden message as an act of graciousness on Disney's part.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Would you ever consider talking about this for my podcast,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: even five minutes? Even if you just want to say
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: something brief and funny? I just saw it with my four-year-old. Anyway,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I know this is a long shot, but thought you
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: might enjoy a little distraction from your day. M. He
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: writes back, First of all, great to hear from you.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: And the picture of you with a four-year-old makes me smile.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Kids are truly life changers and blessings, aren't they? Then
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: he goes on, regarding Zootopia and Gary, I am sorry
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: to tell you, I cannot comment. I should say, Bob
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Iger is an incredibly kind and gracious man. And there
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: is a version of this story where he is the hero,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: the greatest of all heroes, the kind who can never
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: publicly acknowledge their courageous act. There is also a version
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: where he was the victim of a crime so perfect
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: that he can never bring the offender to justice. We
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: will get there. I promise.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Would anyone else talk? I called up Hollywood big shots, moguls.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: No one would go on the record. Don't use this.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Or you can use this, but don't use my name.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Like this guy.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure why they did it, to be honest
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: Because like that's so on the nose. And it's such
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: a bleep you, if you pardon my French. I mean,
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: I didn't know they were that bold, to.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: Be honest with you. I kind of laugh about it.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I think it's funny.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: But it's hysterical.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: But here's the truth.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: You rarely poke talent in the eye. You know what
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: I mean?
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: So I don't know how.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: The lawsuit ended, but I would guess there's a little
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: bitterness because people don't lose wealth, right? So I just
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: find it wildly bizarre.
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: It's too good.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: It's too good.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I kept going mogul upon mogul. Hi, redacted. I'm doing
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: a very strange and hilarious story about Disney and Zootopia
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: 2 and wanted to talk to you about it. The
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: mogul writes back. Nice to connect. I would talk to
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: you about anything except Disney. I respond. I totally understand, redacted,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: but I appreciate you getting back to me. I suspect
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: that you will at least be amused by what we
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: end up doing. It's a story about how the script
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: for Zootopia 2 never should have gotten past Disney legal.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Mogul writes back, not surprised. Good luck. On the matter
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: of Gary the Snake and Zootopia 2, there is nothing
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: but silence from the powers that be. We have been
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: left to our own devices. And there is nothing in
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: the world more exciting on a story as strange as
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: this than being left to our own devices. Next week
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: on Revisionist History, part two, we venture a bold theory
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: about what exactly happened behind the closed doors of the
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Walt Disney Corporation. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird-Lawrence,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and Ben-Nadav Hafri. Our editor is Karen Shakerji.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Fact-checking by Sam Rusick. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Engineering by Nina Bird-Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: design and mastering by Marcelo D'Oliveira. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.