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Screens, Kids & the Hijacked Brain: Dr Wayne Warburton on Beating Screen Addiction · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Wayne Warburton is a professor of developmental psychology at Macquarie University,
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: and he's also a registered psychologist. His research centers on
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: issues related to media use, aggression, and behavioral addictions like
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: screen disorders. He's the co-author of the books Growing Up
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Fast and Furious and The Importance of Media Literacy. and
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: of several statements by international panels of experts on topics
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: around media impacts on young people. Wayne's done some great
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: work with some commercial TV stations, including Channel 7, as
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: well as having a really touching Australian story on the
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: ABC that followed two great teenage boys who were struggling
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: with screen disorder as he worked on them with an
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: intervention program. And today on the Happy Families podcast, We
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: talk about his research and the ways that what he's
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: discovered through empirical data collection can help us to make
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: our families do better around this endemic and never-endingly challenging
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: screen issue.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Stay with us.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting Solutions,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name's Dr.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Justin Coulson. I'm Wayne. It's such a delight to have
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: you on the podcast. I've wanted to talk to you
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: here for such a long time and we finally made
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: it happen.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, it's wonderful to be here, Justin. Thanks for
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: the chat. And this is something that's of great interest
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: to so many Australian families. You know, when I go
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: to school, so many parents come up and say, this
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  Speaker 1: is like the big issue at our house.
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  Speaker 2: As parents, we know that this stuff's bad for our kids,
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  Speaker 2: but it's so hard to effectively navigate it and have
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: the conversations and So my question is really vague and nebulous.
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  Speaker 2: I guess I'm just generally asking, why is this so hard?
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: It's hard like no other thing that parents have ever
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  Speaker 2: encountered seems to be.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's hard because the products that we use
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  Speaker 1: are designed to be addictive. And I don't mean that
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  Speaker 1: in this kind of hand-waving way. The people who make them,
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  Speaker 1: they use neuroscience and they design their products so that
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  Speaker 1: they engage the brain in a way that you see
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  Speaker 1: it engaged in other sorts of addictions. And when you
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  Speaker 1: see the changes to the brain, they're the same as
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  Speaker 1: the ones you see with drug addiction and other types
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  Speaker 1: of addiction. That's why they make the products. And just
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  Speaker 1: to make it even more difficult, once they build in
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  Speaker 1: all of these things that kind of keep the brain's
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  Speaker 1: reward system going and disable the sort of natural breaks
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  Speaker 1: on behavior in the brain and build in all the
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  Speaker 1: things we know from gambling and neuroscience, they then have
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  Speaker 1: an AI that monitors every user in real time and
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  Speaker 1: uses the information that they get from that device to
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  Speaker 1: decide what you're going to see. If that AI thinks
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  Speaker 1: your attention is waning, then they're going to give you
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  Speaker 1: a pop-up of a banner or something on the game
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  Speaker 1: that's going to be irresistible to you that just keeps
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: you at the screen because they work on what's called
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  Speaker 1: the attention economy, which is monetizing your attention. And it
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  Speaker 1: is not a good business model if people don't spend
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  Speaker 1: a lot of time at the screen. The business model
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  Speaker 1: only works if they have you at the screen for
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  Speaker 1: long periods of time. And the best way to do
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  Speaker 1: that and to stay competitive is to use addictive technology.
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  Speaker 1: So it's not the fault of kids. It's not the
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  Speaker 1: fault of parents. You know, this is just stuff that's
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  Speaker 1: designed to be addictive. And that's what makes it so
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  Speaker 1: hard for all of us to leave it aside.
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  Speaker 2: What happens when the ping goes off or when the
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  Speaker 2: phone rings or when you're scrolling through that Instagram or
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: TikTok feed and you see something that kicks off the
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  Speaker 2: cascade of neurotransmitters that pull you in?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to do this on two levels and
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  Speaker 1: try not to confuse everybody. On one level, you know,
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  Speaker 1: your brain is wired up to capture particular sounds and
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  Speaker 1: colours and things like that. And so if something that
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  Speaker 1: we're hardwired to get our attention gets our attention, then
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  Speaker 1: sorts of brains that register sight and sound kind of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: pull us in. But at another level, it's also linked
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  Speaker 1: to a reward because when you hear that sound, And
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  Speaker 1: you know, oh, this could mean I'm getting another like.
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  Speaker 1: This could mean that there's another upgrade for my game.
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  Speaker 1: This means something else cool is happening. So I better
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  Speaker 1: attend to my phone and get that reward. And I
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  Speaker 1: think one of the key things about the sorts of
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  Speaker 1: screen products that we use is that they engage a
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  Speaker 1: part of the brain called the limbic system where we,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we process rewards and we feel things and,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we have parts of the fight or flight
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  Speaker 1: system and everything that happens is kind of automatic. We
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  Speaker 1: don't have any control over it. And that's the part
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  Speaker 1: of the brain that's mostly active when you're reeling through
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  Speaker 1: those TikTok clips or playing a very repetitive game or
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  Speaker 1: doing a whole lot of other things. There's not much
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  Speaker 1: going on in terms of heavy thinking and being in
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  Speaker 1: conscious control of your life. And when you look at
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: the part of your brain where you have a tension
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  Speaker 1: of focus, where you manage your behavior, where you manage
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  Speaker 1: your emotions, where you plan for the future, solve complex problems,
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  Speaker 1: That's at the front of the brain in a part
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  Speaker 1: of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. That part of
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  Speaker 1: the brain is mostly turned off because you're not really
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  Speaker 1: doing any heavy lifting for any of that sort of stuff.
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  Speaker 1: The device is your memory. The device is providing all
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  Speaker 1: of the stimulation. You don't have to do any of
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  Speaker 1: the hard work. It's doing it for you. And so
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  Speaker 1: in the moment, what that means is that you can't
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  Speaker 1: have less access to those higher functions, which is why
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  Speaker 1: we see those kind of meltdowns when you take the
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  Speaker 1: screen away. or there's difficulty managing emotions when the person's
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  Speaker 1: on the screen, because that part of the brain is
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  Speaker 1: not as active. In the long term, the brain is
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  Speaker 1: a use it or lose it organ. And when a
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  Speaker 1: part of the brain isn't being used, it just starts
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  Speaker 1: to lose structure and function. And that's what we see
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  Speaker 1: in kids who are addicted to screens. Compared to other kids,
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  Speaker 1: they have a loss of gray matter. They have a
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  Speaker 1: loss of, particularly in that prefrontal cortex, where you have
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  Speaker 1: those higher functions. You see a change in the density
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  Speaker 1: of the cortex. You see loss of white matter and stability,
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  Speaker 1: which probably means nothing to anyone who's listening, but it's
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  Speaker 1: not a good thing. And it means the brain is
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  Speaker 1: not working particularly efficiently and it's not connected particularly well.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's starting to lose function. And because of
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  Speaker 1: those things, you know, the kids that I see have
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  Speaker 1: a screen addiction and they have trouble managing their emotions,
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  Speaker 1: increasing trouble, increasing trouble managing their behavior, increasing problems with
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  Speaker 1: attention and focus. You know, they're working memory and processing
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  Speaker 1: speed isn't as good. They have more trouble planning for
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  Speaker 1: the future, thinking through the consequences, managing their time, all
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  Speaker 1: of those kind of higher functions, because not only is
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  Speaker 1: the brain not doing that stuff when they're in front
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  Speaker 1: of the screen, but the more they do it, the
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  Speaker 1: more they lose that capacity to do it. Of course,
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  Speaker 1: it's reversible, right? You start to use that part of
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  Speaker 1: the brain again, it starts to grow again. So it's
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  Speaker 1: not like the end of the universe, particularly if you're young.
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  Speaker 1: But it kind of explains some of the problems that
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  Speaker 1: parents have in the home when you take the screen
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  Speaker 1: away or you try to communicate or when the screen
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  Speaker 1: starts to become the big problem in the house. You know,
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  Speaker 1: it's very difficult to cut through, right? Because all of
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  Speaker 1: those things require that kind of rational conversation. They're kind
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  Speaker 1: of out the window because that rational part of the brain,
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  Speaker 1: that's the one that's suffering.
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  Speaker 2: All right, so let's say I'm a parent who doesn't
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  Speaker 2: have a PhD in psychology. I'm not sitting down and
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  Speaker 2: dealing with screen addiction on a daily basis and guiding
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  Speaker 2: people through it. If I'm a regular mum or dad
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  Speaker 2: and my child's screen use is concerning me, how do
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  Speaker 2: I explain to them the things that you've just talked
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  Speaker 2: about in a way that gets through to them? I mean,
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  Speaker 2: how do you convince a 13-year-old or a 17-year-old or, frankly,
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  Speaker 2: a 23-year-old that their screen use is concerning? concerning, that
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  Speaker 2: it's problematic, that it's compulsive, that it's leading to negative outcomes.
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  Speaker 2: And it's because their brain has been rewired and hijacked
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  Speaker 2: by these multi-billion, multi-trillion dollar behemoths that have hijacked neuroscience
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  Speaker 2: to their own selfish and mendacious ends.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I love the way you said that, Justin. Sorry,
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  Speaker 1: I'm just fangirling right now. That's beautifully put. The first
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  Speaker 1: thing I'd say is that you don't have that conversation
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  Speaker 1: when they're kind of in screen world. Of course, you're right.
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  Speaker 1: What can I say? Get off the screen. We need
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  Speaker 1: to talk. When you're off the screen, it takes a
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  Speaker 1: while for your brain to kind of return to normal.
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  Speaker 1: So what you want to do is to have it,
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  Speaker 1: you know, sometime later when everybody's calm and when you're
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  Speaker 1: able to kind of have that rational conversation. And the
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  Speaker 1: thing that I think is most helpful is that you
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  Speaker 1: externalize the problem. And by that, I mean, the problem
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  Speaker 1: is the screen and the people who make it. It's
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  Speaker 1: not that you're a bad kid. It's not that this
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  Speaker 1: is you behaving in a difficult way. It's because, you know,
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  Speaker 1: the screen has become a problem because of the way
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  Speaker 1: people design it. And I think if you come from
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  Speaker 1: that position, it's much easier to have that conversation with saying,
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  Speaker 1: what can we do, you know, you and us against
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  Speaker 1: these makers of the screen, these manufacturers of the screen,
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  Speaker 1: so that we're kind of resisting what it's trying to
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  Speaker 1: do to you and so many other millions of kids
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  Speaker 1: around the world. You know, what can we do to
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  Speaker 1: be the strong ones who put you back in control
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  Speaker 1: so that you're the one who's calling your shots in
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  Speaker 1: your life and not the screen? Because in the end,
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  Speaker 1: my program is about, the parenting is about, it's about
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  Speaker 1: putting you back in the driver's seat. I would say
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  Speaker 1: one other thing. I have never seen a kid with
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  Speaker 1: a screen addiction who, when I ask them, what is
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  Speaker 1: happening in your brain at the time you go to
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  Speaker 1: the screen? I've never heard a different answer than I'm
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  Speaker 1: feeling anxious. I'm feeling stressed. or I've got a negative emotion,
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  Speaker 1: like I'm feeling sad or bored or angry. And when
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  Speaker 1: I go to the screen, it always makes me feel better.
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  Speaker 1: It's my go-to thing. And I think part of the
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  Speaker 1: conversation has to be what's another way that doesn't involve
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  Speaker 1: a screen that kind of helps you when you're feeling
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  Speaker 1: anxious when you're feeling stressed when you're feeling those negative
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  Speaker 1: emotions what are other ways that we can manage this
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  Speaker 1: so that the screen's not the go-to thing I think
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  Speaker 1: that's really helpful and anything a parent can do to
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  Speaker 1: be using that front part of the brain. Because if
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  Speaker 1: you're doing those opposite things, like attending, focusing, having abstract conversations,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: talking to people in the offline world, if you are
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: doing things that encourage mindfulness, if you're doing complex problem solving,
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  Speaker 1: all of those things are engaged in that front brain.
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  Speaker 1: And when you're engaging that front brain, really your conscious
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  Speaker 1: self is in control of your life. It's you who's
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  Speaker 1: driving the bus. So that's what we're trying to do,
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  Speaker 1: We want to say, let's get the screen into the
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: passenger seat and let's get you back into the driver's seat.
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  Speaker 2: I want to ask you about an issue that's been
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: occurring in my family around this ongoing screen issue. And
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: that is that my daughter says, this is how I
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  Speaker 2: communicate with my friends. And by reducing or removing screens,
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  Speaker 2: or specifically by removing the social media platforms that are used,
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  Speaker 2: they don't text. Texting is inconvenient. It's It doesn't work
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  Speaker 2: for them. It's not consistent with how they want to communicate.
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  Speaker 2: And so by removing them from social media platforms, we actually,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: in some ways, sabotage their relationships and leave them feeling isolated.
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  Speaker 1: How do you respond to that? I think that's a
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  Speaker 1: crock load. Do you know why? Because we have so
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: many ways to communicate. The problem with social media, I mean,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of problems with social media. It's
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  Speaker 1: an addictive technology is one. So we have, you know,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: probably 6% to 9% of people have a problem with
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: how much they're on it. There are problems with social comparison.
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  Speaker 1: There's problems with mental health, and the list is very long.
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  Speaker 1: So there are problems. But we have all of these alternatives.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have the same problems, for example,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: just video chatting, FaceTiming, doing all of these other things.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: There are so many other ways to communicate. I think
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  Speaker 1: as time goes on, the evidence that screens can cause
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: problems difficulties becomes more compelling. And the idea that we
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: should protect younger brains from them, you know, to a
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  Speaker 1: higher age becomes more convincing to me as time goes on.
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  Speaker 1: I don't think I would have said that five years
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: ago because the evidence was still coming in, but now
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the evidence is kind of in and it's pretty strong. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I was ahead of the curve on this one and
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I knew that I was doing it without the evidence.
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  Speaker 2: I knew that it was sort of the 18 month
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to two year thing, but I've been saying.
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  Speaker 1: For as long as I can remember that Three. Three
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: at the earliest.
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  Speaker 2: Just minimize or delete screens from kids' lives until at
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: least the age of three. They just don't need them.
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  Speaker 1: All right.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Our time's all but up, and this has gone way
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: too fast, and I feel like we should go into
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: partnership and do a podcast every week because I love
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: this discussion so very much. You're on the record as
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: saying that you're pretty big on family media plans. You
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: want families to do that, but everyone needs to be
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: able to work together on this. I've never seen family
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: media plans work. It's not that I'm against the concept.
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  Speaker 2: I just think that it's one of those things where
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: even if you agree on a family media plan, I
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: reckon within two weeks, you're going to be yelling at
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: each other again because the family media plan isn't being followed.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: What do you do around family media plans that makes
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: it work?
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  Speaker 1: The most important thing is that your child has a
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: sense of agency. And so they're part of the process
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: of putting together a plan that they think is fair.
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  Speaker 2: So if they just don't think that you're right, which
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: is the case for so many families, the kid's just like, no,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: I'm fine.
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  Speaker 1: If you can't reach an agreement, then the plan's never
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: going to work right. Right. You need to reach an
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: agreement where everybody's on the same piece of paper. Often
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: writing it down on a piece of paper is helpful.
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  Speaker 1: But in it, you need to have the kind of,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: the expectations and the things that are going to be
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: the consequences of things. And it might be, I'm really
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: happy for you to have an hour and a half
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  Speaker 1: on screens, you know, provided you've done your homework and
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: your chores, for example. But if that doesn't happen, then
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the consequence will be that we're going to turn the
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: internet off in the house for 24 hours. And you
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: control the Wi-Fi from your phone, for example. And I
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: think that those plans have a lot better chance of
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: success because you've all agreed on This is what we've
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: agreed to do. And this is the agreed consequence. And
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: it's not a massive consequence. It's not like I'm taking
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: your phone away forever. It's just we're turning the internet
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: off for a day. Typically, those plans work a whole
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: lot better.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. Professor Wayne Warburton, Professor of Developmental Psychology
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: at Macquarie University, registered psychologist, a researcher who focuses on
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: media use, aggression, behavioral addictions like screen disorders. We could
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: have talked for days. There's so many questions we didn't
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: have time for. We'll definitely do this again and get
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Wayne back. What a great conversation. The Happy Families podcast
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: is produced by Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. More information
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: and resources to make your family happier are available at happyfamilies.com.au.