Latest / Electronic Music / Dina Pearlman - The ARP Synth Legacy
Transcript
- Hello and welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast channel about electronic music and all things synth. I'm Rob Puricelli. Alan R. Perlman was responsible for some of the greatest sounding and most intuitive synthesizers of the modern age, many of which are still highly sought after today. or emulated to this day. Inspired as so many were by hearing Wendy Carlos's Switched On Bach, Alan founded Tonus in 1969, a company that would soon become ARP Instruments and began producing synthesizers such as the legendary ARP 2500, 2600 and Odyssey. Since his passing in 2019 at the age of 93, his daughter Dina has been building the Alan R. Perlman Foundation. an organization that seeks to preserve her father's legacy and enable as many people as possible to get hands on with his inventions. As with all not for profits, Dina has faced numerous challenges, but with the help of the likes of Jean Michel Jarre, Herbie Hancock and many other fans of Alan's work, the Foundation is beginning to realise its objectives with great success. I wanted to learn more about Dina's work with the Foundation, and also about her time growing up whilst her father and his amazing team pioneered analogue synthesis, and how that impacted the Perlman household. I began by asking her how and why the Foundation came into existence. It came into existence a few weeks probably or even less after my father passed away. Let me backtrack a little bit. Before my father's illness, he had started to re examine the new world of synthesizers that exist today. Many decades, you know, afterwards, uh, and he had been approached by several companies, Korg, another company, to do some projects, to do some consulting. And he reignited his interest in the world of synthesis. Unfortunately, he got sick not too long after the 2015 Everything ARP Symposium at Berkeley, which is around the same time that Korg had been thinking of launching the Odyssey, I believe. But he got sick in 2016 and he was not able to follow through. And when he passed away, I was approached by various different newspapers and organizations to say some words to be interviewed about my father and his life. I found that I was not able to dredge up more than one or two very poor photographs of his involvement in our synthesizers. I had plenty of family photos, you know, snapshots and iPhone things, but nothing that was really worthy of publication like the New York Times or the Boston Globe. So I went on this. Large, uh, sweep of the internet trying to get a picture that I had seen and I knew existed out there. And after a lot of search, I found it. Founded through someone in Sweden, and this person had also taken the Eleanor Perlman name for a Facebook fan page, but very graciously returned it to us. And yeah, he gave me the photo. I found the origins. Who actually initially took it and that was the beginning of the archives. So the archives really came out of a necessity to supply information to the media. The idea of a foundation came out of the idea of perpetuating my father's pensions for mentorship, for teaching, for love of education, for his Lifelong passion of giving back and there was an initial question, should I ask people to donate to a certain organization? He was very much enamored of Al Gore's work with the environment. Ironically, as we speak today about climate change, um, he was, he was obsessed with the, the very real notion at the time and now what's become a reality of climate change. and the destruction it could have to health and society. So we, we made the dedication to Al Gore, uh, Al Gore's organization, but I realized that I wanted to also have people know about him in the music industry. And therefore, I said, let's see if we can get a scholarship in his name at Berkeley. And I knew nothing about not for profits and about endowments and all the things that need to happen in order to secure a scholarship at an educational institution. Luckily, I was also friends with Michelle Moe. She had reached out to me a few years prior. To get some information about my dad's work for the Moseum. And so we communicated through email a few times. And she had come to my father's funeral. It was like an angel. She was an angel coming to me then. She said, you know, no one really understands what you're going through. Uh, and, um, maybe I can, you know, help you. Be a source of support because it's true here. I am mourning my father, but there's also the world is mourning the loss of this pioneer. So I spoke to her frequently about the ups and downs of starting a foundation and it all sort of gelled. It all kind of coalesced. So there was not one definitive moment. It was more the archives. sort of gelled. Then the idea of creating a scholarship to an electronic music program or electronic engineering program came about and then the idea of how to create bring this all together. So what are the, the main aims of the foundation as it exists today? Well, the main aims are first and foremost to honor the legacy of my father. So celebrating the legacy of how he was an inventor, a musician, an entrepreneur, and an engineer, and doing this by making his innovative. musical instruments publicly accessible and in doing so hoping to inspire future generations to imagine and create from the seed thought of it's possible to do anything. One of the things That I don't talk about much, but I recently thought this is really worth noting, is my father grew up in sort of a, not a, not a nuclear family, per se, because his father left when he was only four. And so he was brought up by his mother and. His mother and his brother at one point moved back to her parents, so his grandparents, but, you know, this was a loss early on, especially if you think of the times he was born in 1925. This is not something that was frequent then. So even from the beginning, he had certain challenges. And I think it's important for people to know that no matter what happens in your life, the opportunities are there if people both believe in you and so give you the opportunities and you believe in yourself. And luckily he had an extremely supportive family around him, all really supportive of the educational process. And I think that that was an enormous leg up for him. And this really helped him a lot. They, they were, they also recognized that there was an innate genius in him. And so, uh, nurturing that was important, but they, they embraced his curiosity. He had an amazing curiosity. He would just get into things and take things apart and put them back together. And, you know, the, and, and this, this was, uh, embraced and nurtured. Always strikes me when I talk to yourself and I talk to Michelle. But there's a very strong female presence in everything that your father and even Bob did, whether it was wives, mothers, grandmothers, aunts, daughters. How does that kind of strike you? Do you, does that seem like a familiar thing to you? You know, I don't think I've ever thought about it that way, but it absolutely makes sense. My mother was an extremely strong force behind ARP. This is something else that I want to be able to emphasize. She was one of the first employees and she supported my father in, you know, this, what must have seemed to her a wild endeavor after having a relatively stable company that he actually had built as an entrepreneur already. And, uh, but she, she She was there. She she was there for the whole time and, uh, without my mom, there's no doubt in my mind he would not have been able to accomplish what he did, you know. As far as me, I was around a lot because we were a very tiny family. It was just my mom and I, and my father. And so he would end up bringing us to trade shows and travels that had to do with ARP. I would used to go after school in the early days when my mom was working. And so I was around the whole time. And there were women working at ARP as well from the very beginning. This is like, again, there's a, there's traditionally an overtly male culture. I think when you think about synthesizers and People default to that idea in electronics, at least back in those days. But there were women putting together the very earliest ARPS, the 2, 500s. There was several women that were working there, um, my mom, David Friend's wife as well, she was the artist. So, it was, it was about as egalitarian as it could be at the time, it's pretty interesting, yeah. And I think that was important to my dad, he actually wrote, he used to like to write, this is another little bit of new information, I'm working on editing a story that he wrote. And, Uh, he wrote about a, a woman president, um, uh, of color, actually, he, uh, this, this was a vision that he had, uh, for our, our country. So he was a futurist, and he believed very, very, very strongly that women could do just anything. Not only just anything, but probably more. What was your experience growing up as, as a child and your father is in this industry of, you know, wonderful electronics and sound, you know, what, what are your memories of, of that, that time? It was a time of, Intense activity and creativity and wild and weird and avant garde stuff. I remember listening to Mort Subotnick and Gershon Kingsley and all that kind of music, you know, anything from, you know, poppy, strange to esoteric and, and not so accessible. So he really explored the gamut of music that could be. Produced with electronics. And so that was something that was all pervasive. They had this wonderful music room. It was an addition that was built to on our house. And it was, The music room, that was what it was called. And there's a baby grand, there was the clavichord that my dad and I built. There was a quadraphonic stereo system. Um, often there would be later years, a synthesizer and a tape deck, uh, reel to reel nearby. And while it was not a recording studio, it was a place for, for listening, for deep listening and for playing. So there was. music everywhere. We had, we had a second piano that I practiced on. And, uh, so that we had, you know, instruments everywhere. My mom was, uh, experimenting with guitar and, uh, it was, it was really, really rich with, uh, music. And my father would buy albums of contemporary musicians that he thought that were important for me to hear. So he bought, I mean, my first Beatles albums, I mean, I was a kid. I was, you know, I was too young to go out and buy albums at the time. And, of course, all the music that came out of the early ARP, you know, endorsers and experimenters, um, made its way into our house as well. So it was full of music and travel. I was, I was really, really blessed. I'm so grateful for that. One of the things that you've recently discovered, uh, and I believe it was whilst clearing out, uh, some storage that your parents had, was some footage from way back in the day when, uh, I'm thinking is it would be around early 1970s. Yes, there were two videos. Um, actually there was more but the videos that actually have footage from the factories. One is from 1974 and one is from 1978. So you have the second and third factory. So tell us a little bit about how you discovered this footage. And how you got, you know, because I believe it was stored on a particular format that's not a common format and you needed to get that transferred. So give us a bit of background about this new footage. So it was a complete surprise and I have a funny feeling that nobody in my family had remembered about that these tapes existed. I was going through the storage space. This is after my mom had passed and she passed in 2020 and then in 2020, excuse me, we moved to another. Location we took all of my mom's things and put it in a in a storage space and when we were doing sort of the final clean out last year in 2021, the very last. set of boxes, and I'm not just saying this for dramatic effect, but it really was the last set of boxes, uh, said ARP tapes or something. And I opened it up and there are these oversized, they look like gigantic cassettes or, or gigantic VHS. And one says Les McCann and the other says Tom Piggott and something else. And I'm looking at the dates and I'm, and this is like, Oh my goodness. Wow. What is this? I'd never seen the format. It said pneumatic and I looked it up and these are tapes that were, these are the tapes they make, uh, television or they made television broadcasting. And I said, my gosh, I got to do something with them. And thank goodness nobody has pneumatic tape. Players lying around. Uh, so there was no temptation to even try to, you know, look at them because I'm, you know, I know that you can't, you don't want to play old tape in an uncontrolled environment. So I looked all over New York, could not find any place to transfer these. I'm thinking this is really weird. And Mary from our foundation, she looked up a place that actually happened to be in Newton and. Ironically, it's right in between the, uh, the first ARP factory and the second between Kenneth street and, uh, Christina Needham. So this is crazy. So I don't even have to, they don't even have to leave the area. This is wonderful. And they, uh, they do, they do digital transfer. They do archiving of all sorts. And, uh, I gave them the first one. Along with some Super 8 film that my father took. That's, that's, that's another kind of precious story. And the very first one I got back, it didn't have much of anything interesting on it. I was like, oh, this said Les McCann. I went through the tape three times. I could not find Les McCann. So I said, well, I'm just going to do a couple here and a couple there. And the next one, um, Bingo. That was the one. That's where I saw footage from the Kenneth Street. I mean, sorry, the Needham Street plant and my father. Uh, very young, very thin, big sideburns. Um, and, and speaking in the, in the factory and it was, it was. amazing. I cried for a long time, because it, you know, I hadn't seen my father look like that in so long. But I remembered, it suddenly took me right back. And, and I held on to it for a while, I have to admit, I did not, I didn't want to give it away. I wanted to hold on to it for a while. So You know, I waited until I thought the time was right. I also did try to contact the, the television station multiple times to see if I had to go through any copyright stuff. They never got back to me. I went, I, I emailed them, I called them. And then finally, you know, it was said, well, you can, you can publish these. You can't monetize them, and there may be some copyright infringement about the music. So, yeah, the first one, it opened up with a segment from Cabaret, and then the musician who's one of the guys who worked the demo people, Dave Frederick, who you've seen in Alex's, uh, in Alex's documentary is opening up with Cabaret, but it's his own rendition. And so it's just like a two seconds. So I kind of, I kind of jumped in there and edit as much as I could out. And, uh, there didn't seem to be a problem with that one. The second one turns out, I think it's Tangerine Dream is in the background or something like that. I have to, I have to look back. I'm not quite sure now. Um, but there was, this was the second television station. And they put some soundtrack music from a recording that is, uh, you know, that needs to be licensed, but they didn't take it down either. So there were some issues with that, but yeah. So I found these and after I said, okay, I'm going to release them to the world. No one's ever seen this stuff. The, the, to see the factories is quite breathtaking. I think, I mean, to see, you know, people fixing. Blue meanies or, you know, piles of Omni's and it's just quite startling. Yeah. Yeah. It was when I, when I saw that footage and I was very lucky that you, you shared that with me, um, to see. You know, piles of machines that these days the mind boggles as to how much they would be worth on the, on the, on the used market and how many people would want one of those things. And there they are literally stacked one on top of each other in, in such a fashion so that they don't fall over. And there's all these wonderful people. And to go back to that thing about, you know, this kind of heavily dominated female workforce that we're doing right now, All the intricate wiring and soldering of all of the boards and everything. It was a remarkable thing to actually see synthesizers being hand built back in those days. Um, and as well as, you know, the footage of Uh, the people playing these machines and talking about them and of course your father as well. It must have been a real, um, uh, you know, mind blowing experience. Yeah, very much so. Is there any more that, uh, that you'll be able to get transferred at any point soon? Yes, I have transferred a few lectures that, uh, Tom Piggott, who is another, uh, marketer, uh, demonstrator and instructor and, uh, uh, Real teacher. He was one of the authors of several of the books that were published by Arpid Strings as well. Uh, he used to go to different colleges and universities and do demonstrations. So I have a bunch of those. And I also have an interview with him, uh, that I recorded over the winter. And I'm in the midst of editing that. And so I want to edit it, get it, and then, uh, do a session where, uh, After that, people can ask me questions. He was one of our guests in the 2600 Symposium. So that is coming down the pike. And then there is one more pneumatic tape that I haven't transferred yet. I have no idea what's on it. And I will probably be bringing it. Actually, I'm going to be going to Boston in early August. So I'm going to take it with me then. You mentioned that one of the aspects of the foundation, um, is getting people in front of these machines, and I think you, you have a name for that, it's called ARPS for All. ARPS for All, uh huh, yeah. Tell us a little bit about that program, um, what you want to achieve with that. Sure, this project came out of the idea that, um, I wanted to have a situation that was a living museum on one side and on the other side, a place where people that would not be able to afford the vintage equipment could come and use it. So, you know, my education of sort of trial by fire of what the analog synthesizer world is today, there is. I don't want to use the word elite because that's elitist in itself. But not everybody has the opportunity to work with these vintage instruments. Now I have, I know several people that bought them before it became chic to buy them. And have maintained them lovingly. I know other people that restore them. And I know collectors. But most 22 year olds coming out of Berklee College of Music, or any music program for that matter, is not going to be able to go and purchase a vintage instrument. And if they, they do have the opportunity to use the, the clones of which there's various companies and styles and of course the VSTs, which I think are a wonderful learning tool as well. But I, I wanted people to use these. I wanted, I wanted people to have the wonder and inspiration and the tactile experience of being able to use these because my father would lend machines out to people and he would lend instruments to people and, and, and so this is as close as I can get to doing that. So the impetus is. for underfunded, new musicians, underrepresented musicians to be able to have the instruments and the space to make their own creations. We are hoping to have a residency program later in the year, which we've been doing some fundraising for and where someone will be coming in for a full week and we would pay their way. Um, Most residency programs, there would be an exchange where they would create a CD or do a performance or teach a class or some sort of resulting work, you know, at the end of this period. So we are really looking forward to. Having that happen, whether it's the end of this year, the beginning of next, but we've, uh, we've, we've created an outline of what that's going to look like. We've started to create some budgets. I am now, uh, looking also for grants to support it because we haven't made our, our budget for this program yet. Um, because we still have operating costs as well. So there's, There's all that. So what sort of equipment do you currently have that you can do this with? So currently we have everything from an axe to a 2600. So we have single oscillator, three oscillators. Uh, we have a, an Antonis 2600. We have a vintage 2600 that was signed by my father that was originally owned by David Nash. We have an Omni. We have a Quadra. which was donated to us lovingly by the original owner who worked for ARP at one point. We have an avatar which needs to be given a little love and attention. Definitely will be knocking on Alex Ball's door for some more advice about that. And uh, a Solus uh, and a sequencer. So yeah, so we have, we have a simple and complex. What would you like that you don't have and what's missing from that collection that you're maybe in, you know, looking for or hoping that somebody might bequeath something to the collection? Well, we are looking for 2, 500. There are very few of them on the planet. I I'm aware of where probably 50 percent of them are, who owns them. And the idea that they're modular to me gives me hope that maybe we can build one, you know, piecemeal, uh, but we need to have funds to do that. And again, we're looking for some grants, uh, for that. You know, uh, since we're not going to necessarily bank on the idea that one's going to be bequeathed next year. So, so a 2500, I, to me, it's probably the most important machine for us to get. And I have to stop using the word machine. Every time I say that Jean Michel Jarre is getting angry with me and saying, no, no, these are instruments, Dina, these are instruments. So it was my father's first. It was his. The 2500 and the 2600 were the ones that he was most involved with, as far as, you know, some of the more intricacies of construction. Um, he worked with several people on the 2500. Dennis Colon, Ken McNeil. Uh, this, this is the sort of creme de la creme of modular synthesizers, I think. There is a beauty to the sound that is inimitable. It's just, just has so many delicious possibilities. So I am very, very much hoping that One becomes part of the collection. I was watching, um, a video by Ben Edwards recently where he spent 20 odd minutes patching a 2, 500. I've never seen, uh, that happened before, um, in real time. And I really, uh, Realized that I didn't understand anything about the 2500 and how it worked because of that matrix system at the top and the bottom. And the way that there was very few patch cables involved there was just a case of using this beautifully designed matrix system that all just made perfect sense. Every module had arrows going down from the bottom and going up to the top that, you know, allowed you to route signals, uh, or I think it was audio on the top and, and, CV signals across the bottom. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful design. Forget the sound, the design, um, that allows a musician to interact with this thing and get those, those sounds that you, you, you mentioned. It was just wonderful. I think the ergonomic aspect of ARP synthesizers is one of the really unique differences. The, the, the panel graphics, the color coding, the directionals, you know, the, this was something that was part of my father's overall modus operandi when it became really evident to me. in his later years when I would go to his office and there was all of these color coded, uh, inputs and outputs to his computers, you know, so he would, you know, have a series of colors, this led to that peripheral, that led to another peripheral, uh, this was, you know, for this purpose, this was for that purpose, and the way that he orchestrated, the way he sat, he loved because Velcro allowed him to create immediate Places to put things and being, uh, not a tall man, he invented all sorts of ways to make life easy for him and my mom and all of it had the same kind of idea of being a human, human interaction with a machine or human interaction with inanimate objects. So I see now when I look at the 2500 or the 2600 or the Odyssey and I see. In a completely different light with the idea of making it accessible for a user. Yeah, the color coding has always struck me as this wonderful concept that just simply works. And being somebody who is very visual myself in the way that I work, it just makes perfect sense. And it really above all other. Vintage, analog, modular or semi modular synthesizers. The ARP stuff just makes the most sense to me from a visual perspective. Well, my father was very interested in visual arts. He actually had been taking some courses at Harvard with my mother's, with my uncle. That's how he met my mother. Because when my uncle found out he was taking painting with my father. my late uncle Albert Alkali and when Albert found out that my father was an electronic engineer, next thing you know, he's over the house fixing his radio and TV. And then he saw my mom, you know, walk by and he's like, Oh, who's that cute, cute girl. So this is this is a note to all of you technical types. You can you can be girls. Excellent stuff. Yeah. Um, You've been working with Bukes, the um, the, the, the producer of some fine synthesizer times. Tell us a little bit about that. Oh yes. So it, it, it started calmly enough. I met, I met Kim and Mike Metlay at NAMM 2020 and uh, was very excited to see that the first couple of books, you know, Pageant Week and Push Turn had some ARP involved. So that was really exciting. And the next book that came out that involved us, uh, was synth gems. And, uh, I was asked if I would, you know, supply some information. And, uh, so I shared my resources. A lot of those resources were shared with me also by Emi App and Alex Ball. This we have sort of a, at this point, I think there's like a network of, uh, Archivists, but it was, uh, it was really rewarding to see the stuff in print, but I didn't, I was not heavily involved with synth gems, not until, it was the patch and tweak with Korg that I ended up, uh, helping out and being interviewed for. It was, it was really neat to be interviewed. I went on a search. This is another one of those journey stories for a picture of an ARP 2600 Blue Meanie. You asked me previously what would I want for this collection that we have. So a 2500 to me is very important for the aspect of having someone use this instrument, this, this, you know, the, you know, the original ARP. But the Blue Meanie and the, and the Gray Meanie, these were some of the early Almost prototypes of what a 2600 is now, because 2600 is a living instrument. It is, you know, still being produced and it's being produced well. Uh, the earlier ones were different, and the earlier ones I think are really important for historical preservation, and we are definitely looking for one. So, I don't have access to one, and I, wanted to get a picture of a blue meanie. Phil Scirocco had some imagery from a video that he had done, but I wanted to get some really beautiful photographs. So I, I went on a, I went on a hunt and I found two finally, uh, that were in pristine condition, one in London, but it was very hard to get a coordinate, to get a coordinated photographic session between someone who would be willing to take the photographs and, and, uh, the, And then there was another one in, I want to see either Arizona or Colorado now, I'm not quite sure. And that one, I met the person finally, online of course, and he took some wonderful photographs and we got it in there. I would say, At the very last minute, uh, and, uh, you know, it was the 11th hour. And then in the 11 and a half hour, I was looking at the galleys and I saw a picture that said, uh, Phil Dodds, except there wasn't Phil Dodds. It's a picture of Dave Spencer, who is another, who's a, an officer at ARP later, much later. So I, I call up, I literally call Kim in Denmark. It was probably like three in the morning. I said, you can't let this go to, it was like one of those, like, stop the presses. This is not Phil Dodds. So the photographer that had taken those, she had taken a bunch of pictures for the Boston Phoenix and someone had told her that that was, You know, that that was Phil Dodds, and so it's been on Getty Images for a decade or more, and I finally got them to change it. And they found another picture of Phil, but it was, it was kind of exciting, you know, one of those stop the presses moments. But yeah, it was, it was really gratifying to be able to tell the foundation story as part of this project and to be able to talk about my father's work and the impetus behind it. And of course, another avenue you've been able to talk about your father's work and that of the organization is through Google Arts and Culture. Oh, Music Makers and Machines. What a lovely project that is. And we definitely hope to get some more work in there. That came about, I believe that Michelle suggested that they reach out to us because, uh, the Bob Moog Foundation was one of the major organizers of this project. And there's, I think, 50 plus museums, organizations, colleges, um, whatnot from all over the planet that have contributed to this online exhibit of electronic music in all its aspects. That was absolutely a lot of fun. Mike Metley and Mary Locke and I put a lot of work into these stories. Mike did the majority of the writing and he was tireless and really, really amazing to work with. Yeah, it is, uh, it's such an interesting exhibit and I really recommend, if anyone wants to Google music makers and machines, It's also, there's a link to it on our website, and I'm sure the Bob Moog Foundation, um, MAF's part of it, uh, it has some virtual synthesizers, so you can try out a Moog or try out an ARP, um, and that's not even part of our exhibit, that was just in conjunction with, there's some 3D imagery of, of synthesizers, there's a history of, you know, the different inventors, there's, uh, All the different genres. It's a, it's a, it's a beautiful, brilliant exhibit and, uh, you can definitely get lost. Yeah, absolutely. It is a wonderful thing to experience. So what's coming up in the future for, um, the foundation? What do you have planned, uh, for the coming months and years ahead? We are looking for grants. So I'm starting to work with, uh, grant writers and researchers. And this is to potentially purchase some of these rarities. Also would like to be republishing some of the books that my father wrote. So, you know, aligned with the idea of continuing to perpetuate education. I feel that those books, uh, I get, I mean, The books are going for a thousand dollars, never mind synthesizers. What? Oh, unbelievable. So. I, I, I, I really have a, I think my father would have a problem about the inaccessibility of some of these. So I'm, I am bound and determined to make these accessible. And, and the people that I work with and the board are, are, are just really wonderful to work with. Um, yeah, so I have some wonderful merch coming, uh, that's being developed for the, you know, Odyssey, the year of the Odyssey. So I'm going to be doing some early promotion of that. Ollie Freak, who created the wonderful synthesizer evolution. He created a Odyssey poster and I just got samples from a couple of printers and I'm going to be putting those up online. They are beautiful. really, really great. Uh, and his work is really great. And, uh, so excited about that and continue to work with Miyoko from the, who created the whimsical bunnies with the, so, uh, we'll be having some, uh, wonderful art and merch coming around and, you know, it's, and this will all be available on. The foundation website on the foundation website. We have a shop and then one more project, which I, we were not, we don't have a formal announcement yet, but I think that it would be important to start to introduce the discussion on a broader scale. And that is about music and healing. It's an extremely, uh, broad topic. We have some much more narrow focuses that we're. Refining and we'll be talking about that. When we've created a definitive statement, but I'm very excited about the potential in this project. Dina, as always, it's an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you ever so much for joining us today. Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all the other episodes. Before you go, make sure you visit the Sound On Sound podcast page at soundonsound. com forward slash podcasts, where you can explore all the other great content playing across the other channels. I'm Rob Pericelli, and this has been a failed Muso production for Sound On Sound.