Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Your Path to Becoming an Author

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Your Path to Becoming an Author · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Chatting With The Experts,
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the TV show in which I showcase women from Africa, women from the
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Caribbean, and women in the diaspora.
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Sometimes men are included in this, and you know, we love it when we have the
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men, but for the most part, it's women.
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And the mission of this show is to have these women, or my guess, because
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sometimes we have men, the mission is to empower women globally, inspire women
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globally, and to educate women globally.
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Our topic today is called Telling Your Story- You Can Write Your Book.
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And we'll be talking about when you want to write a book, the
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three things that you need to know.
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One of them is the idea of writing and publishing, because books do seem
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overwhelming to write and publish.
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Another question, what we would talk about is when you don't know where to begin.
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And a big part, because I struggled with this and I still do, is devaluing
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our own wisdom and experience.
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And with me to do that is Donna Knutson, who is a writing coach.
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And she helps people finish their books they've always wanted to write.
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She says whether the story is a completed draft or still in the writer's head,
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Donna helps writers solidify their ideas, create a blueprint for their project,
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and work through content and flow issues.
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There's a lot more I can say with that, but that's why I have
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this show, so that my guests can talk more about what they do.
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And so with that, I want to welcome Donna to the show.
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Thank you Donna.
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Hi.
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Thank you for saying yes, and thank you for being a guest
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on Chatting With The Experts.
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So I know I said a bit about you.
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I didn't say a lot because I always like my guests to talk
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a bit more about you apart from being a writer, a writing course.
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There's so many other things you told me you've done.
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You've been a teacher.
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You told stories.
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I mean you helped people tell stories because you've been a news
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writer and a producer, but yeah, the rest is, let me let you say it.
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Thank you so much and thanks for having me on your show.
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I started out right out of college, I knew that I wanted to work in television news.
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I've always had a desire to help people tell their stories and to
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relay information to one another.
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So I always knew that that's what I wanted to do.
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When I started in the business, it was very different than
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it is now, but so much fun.
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We basically just were able to get into all of the neighborhoods in the
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local neighborhoods and tell people's stories, which is what I loved to do.
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Eventually, it became a little bit more corporate.
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Things were really easily shared between places.
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So you didn't need as many human beings in the newsroom, which
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meant you could still fill the newscast, but there weren't as local.
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So at that point, I started to do a little change over and I
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worked with high school students.
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The station was gracious enough to run a show for them and give them the half hour
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that they could put on their own newscast.
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And I helped them do that.
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And after that, I transitioned into teaching.
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I taught English as an associate professor.
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And then I started my own business.
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And right now what I do is I help people write their books.
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I call it helping people telling their stories, mostly because when I run into
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people, they'll say, yeah, you know, people always say I should write a book.
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And if that's on your heart, but you don't know how to get started.
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That is what I love to help people do.
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Yes, because before we came on camera, I told you that I have written a
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book, but I have written a book.
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That's where it ended.
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I never got it published.
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I do have a publisher, and she's been behind me to finish it, but
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I wrote that book and I think writing it was therapeutic for me.
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After that, it was like, I'm done.
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And so I know that one of the things you do is help people take
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that book from their head or take their unfinished draft or even the
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finished draft and make it a book.
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So let's talk more about that.
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So publishing is a big industry and I always tell people I am not a publisher.
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My job as a writing coach is to help the person get a beautiful manuscript that
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they can then present to a publisher.
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However, Everyone who is writing who wants to become published needs to learn about
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what that big business is of publishing.
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And I find a lot of times, what's exciting, I should say, what's
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exciting about right now is that the gatekeepers are gone.
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What do I mean by that?
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Yes.
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Used to be you.
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Before the way that publishing has gone and you can do it on demand
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and it doesn't cost that much.
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If you wanted to publish your own book, you had to run like 10, 000,
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15, 000 copies from a printer.
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You get a hard copy book and then you had to sell all those copies.
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It's a really big investment for people.
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Now that they can publish on demand, you order a book, they print that one book.
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That really reduces the cost.
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It's allowed people to be able to publish themselves and afford it.
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If you couldn't do that before, you would have to go through a publishing
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house, which would mean you'd have to have, send your work in, someone would
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read it, usually some sort of intern or, you know, entry level person in
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that office, and then they'd pass it on.
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And if that person thought it would be okay, then they'd pass it on.
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It's the gatekeeping system.
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That means the person who's reading is valuing whether or not
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your work is important to you.
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As opposed to you knowing from your own experience that your experience is
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of value and your wisdom is of value.
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And if the people reading are not people who understand your journey,
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they might not value your journey and your wisdom because it doesn't
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connect with what they've known.
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They might think that that journey doesn't resonate with other people.
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The reason you do your show with women from the Caribbean and from the
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African diaspora is because there's so many people out there with so many
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experiences culturally, emotionally, all the different things that happen.
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If you don't have that one person read that piece, are they going
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to say that this, you know, who would want to read this?
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So many people.
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And, you know, many of us have come up from a background where
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storytelling was, you know, it's thrilling and I'm so happy that, you
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know, in my generation, storytelling was for when you were nine, 10.
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When you reach, you know, puberty, it was like, that's for the babies.
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That's for the younger one.
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But I'm so happy that it's been reintroduced, even the businesses
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because, you know, deep down, everybody wants to hear a story.
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You know, we want to hear about people.
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We want to know more about people.
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And so, yeah, I'm so happy that you can help people do that.
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Share a story.
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And, you know, a lot of times the first thing to do is just to have people
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realize that their story is value.
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It's a value to someone else who needs to hear your journey.
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And I wouldn't force anyone to do it, but if it's on your heart to do
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it, and you don't, a lot of people just don't know where to get started.
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They then tell themselves, I don't know really how to write and I really wouldn't
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know how to put this together or all of the different excuses that can come up.
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And what I know is now there are so many things that can help people through all
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of those stumbling blocks that come along.
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And so I try and help them through that process to be able to write their story.
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So, we talked about the publishing gatekeepers gone.
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So now they're gone.
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That has brought people like you into our world.
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So where do we start?
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So usually, if I run into someone and they say, I've written a book,
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but I don't know what to do with it.
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Or I have an idea to write a book, but I'm not really sure what to do.
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I started, I can't finish.
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I usually start by asking them what's the dream.
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What is their dream for that thing they're writing?
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Are they writing a story they want their family to have?
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Are they writing a story they want their business community to have?
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Are they writing a story they want customers to have?
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Students, what's the story?
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What's the dream that you want for that story?
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Sometimes they'll say, you know, I want it to be a bestseller.
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Great!
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Whatever the dream is, that's kind of where I like to start.
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Because if you are writing a piece and you want your family to have
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it, you can do that on your own.
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You don't need to pay lots of people to help you with that.
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And so that's one journey.
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We can start giving you the tools to do that.
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And if they want something a little bit more, if they want to go, if it's
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something to publish for schools or something to publish for businesses,
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then we have another process.
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Question number one is always, who are you writing this book for?
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Who is your ideal reader?
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That is the number one question.
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Once we know who that ideal reader is, we can start.
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And I wouldn't believe but I get so much hesitation about picking just one.
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I want everyone to read it.
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That's not what I said.
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I didn't say no one will read it.
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I said who's your ideal reader, but I want everyone to read it.
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Yes.
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So I try and give examples.
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So that they can understand why it's important to know
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who your ideal reader is.
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If you are writing a children's book, what age group are we
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writing it for 6 year olds?
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Is it for 12 year olds?
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Is it for 18 year olds?
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You're going to write a different story.
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That's not hard for people to understand.
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Oh, okay, get it.
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Well, it's no different.
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Are you writing this book for 20 year old women or 40 year old women?
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Both of them can read that story and understand.
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But the access to the story, what point you're coming from, is going to differ a
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little bit if you're writing for a 20 year old or you're writing for a 40 year old.
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They have different life experiences.
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You have different things you need to explain or not explain.
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Doesn't mean that that person won't have access to the book, but they're able to
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understand, Oh, this is written for this.
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I really loved it.
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I had to look some things up.
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Which is fine.
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You can have a glossary then to help them out.
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These are the kind of things that I try and get through to people.
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When you have that idea, it helps you with what to put in, what not to put in,
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what language we're using, what level of vocabulary, what do we need to explain.
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If you're writing a book for people who grew up in a Caribbean island, there are
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some things you don't need to explain.
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They know.
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It's cultural.
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It's built in.
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You should just write it.
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And if you want other people to access it, you can say in the back,
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there's a little glossary that will explain the words that are common.
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It would be silly for you to explain a common word to
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someone who's from that culture.
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So this allows other people to read it and access it, but
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we keep the story focus clean.
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That's really helpful to know.
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So you should stop in your why and know who your target reader will be.
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That's helpful.
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It makes me think about the book I wrote.
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I think I wrote that book for me.
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And that often happens.
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And the thing is even if you write for you, that's even better because then
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we really know what you want to see.
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And it helps on the marketing end as well.
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I could ask you, where do you shop?
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Where do you, you know, go to get your books?
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Where can we place this book when you're done?
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We would know because you would be able to tell me in a very detailed way, all of
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these things about what catches your eye.
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So I'll know what colors to use on the book cover.
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All of these things are very important and they can be very helpful to the
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process of getting the book together.
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Wooww!
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My motto every day is to learn something new.
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I've learned a lot from you and we are not even halfway through the show yet.
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I've learned so much.
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Hmm.
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Because for me it was almost like a revelation.
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I wrote that book for me.
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Hmm.
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And now you tell me what I can do with the book that I wrote for me.
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Right.
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It's so often we run out into the world and we run into
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someone from somewhere else.
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who has so many experiences that we can relate to.
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So you can write a book for you that other people can access.
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The best example of this would be like the Bible.
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It was written thousands of years ago for Jewish Christians.
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And then the Old Testament was written even more thousands of years
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ago for the Jews, Jewish population.
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We still access all the wisdom of that book.
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What's not written for us?
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does not mean you can't access it, does not devalue the stories that are told
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in the book, but you do have to, when you read it, then understand you're
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reading about cultures that happened a long time ago, and they might have
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a different way of saying things, or a different way of doing things.
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It doesn't change the power of the story.
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And so that's, it's just very important to, to keep your setting to your
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audience for them to understand it.
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That's such a great example.
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Really makes it, you know, easier to understand, you know, about
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sometimes when you write without even thinking of what you're
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writing or who you're writing for.
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Sometimes it is for other people, and they don't have to be part of the
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story, but they still can gain from it.
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Love that example.
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So, I mean, still on the same topic about publishing gatekeepers being gone.
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So, and you mentioned you're not a publisher you're a coach, a writing coach.
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So, We know when we write in a book, and most people should know this,
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there will be someone who can edit and someone who will publish it.
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So, can we talk a little bit about who does what and why they do it?
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Absolutely.
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There are many different kinds of editors, and editing is, if you really
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want your book to to shine, you want to have your editing process complete.
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So someone like me, I'm going to be in hopefully early on the
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ride, help with the engineering.
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If you think of an architect or engineering with a building, you want
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to make sure that the stair to go from the first floor to the second floor and
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the second floor to the third floor.
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You want to make sure that that flow is correct.
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Is it enough for the people who will be in the building?
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Do you have enough bathrooms?
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Like all of those kinds of things.
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That's kind of the work that I help the author do with the book,
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so that it makes sense all the way through, that things are connected.
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You didn't leave something out, there, oh, there's no staircase between level
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10 and 11, right, or you skipped a whole chapter that needs to be in there, you
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went from floor number 9 to floor 11.
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That's something that I would be able to help.
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So I try and explain it in that way that and what I do is what we
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would call developmental editing.
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So the developmental editor is going to help you with that structure of your
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book, make sure everything flows together, that you didn't leave any parts out.
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So if your reader can seamlessly go from one end to the other and have all
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the tools that they need and understand all the parts, all the characters,
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if there's fiction, you know, all of those things coming together.
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Once that's done, I would be the last.
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I can make the work clean and pretty, but then you're going to want someone
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to do what we would call a copy edit.
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A what, sorry?
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A copy edit.
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Oh, copy edit.
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Okay.
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So a developmental edit is going to get your book together.
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They're not going to give you your manuscript back with huge
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grammatical errors, spelling errors, and stuff like that.
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But, it's not going to be perfectly swept up.
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Well, I should say, I shouldn't use the word perfect, because there is no perfect.
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There's no book on earth that has no errors, no things that
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could be done a different way.
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Not one book.
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Because even grammarians don't agree on exactly how to
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do all the different things.
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Having said that, usually since I've been with the book from the beginning, you
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want a fresh set of eyes on it and you want someone who is an expert at grammar
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and punctuation and that's their thing.
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Like they just love that and they can't wait to look at the book and
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find all those little things to fix.
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That's your copy edit.
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You want that person to go through and give you that fresh look.
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Okay.
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And write your notes.
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That's why you see me looking to the side.
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Absolutely.
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The other thing that you can do along this process is have an alpha and a
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beta team of writers and readers, I'm sorry, alpha and beta team of readers.
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Of readers.
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Okay.
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So your alpha readers, you're going to select them, they're going to be
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the first set of human beings, we're going to look at your finished draft.
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This is after you've done edits and everything, they're going to read your
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finished draft and give you feedback.
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So we want them to be your target reader.
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If you give your alpha reader, if you give your book to an alpha
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reader, it's not your target audience and they don't understand it.
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This would be okay because they're not your target audience.
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Wow.
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So you want to make sense.
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Right?
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You want to, so many people like, yeah, yeah.
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Well, my mother in law is going to read it.
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Great.
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Is she a target audience?
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No, she liked it.
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Great.
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Is she a target audience?
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So you want your alpha reader to be one, two, not more than three people
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because human beings are always, you can only read with your own experience.
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Yeah.
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So they're going to bring their own experience to the book and
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they're going to give you feedback based on their experience.
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That does not mean that you take the feedback.
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It means that you now understand how someone has understood what you said.
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So you can read over it again now and you can say, hmm, did I
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want them to take it this way?
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Is it okay that they took it this way or does that need to be changed and that
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will give you a sense of how you want to evaluate whether or not to make a change
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or not but just because someone gives you feedback they didn't understand.
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If one person didn't understand it and the other two understood it,
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there are more questions to ask.
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Is that something that internally that you didn't have as an experience
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and so you didn't understand it.
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Did you not understand it because it wasn't written clearly?
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We would want to know what's going in there.
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So I always tell my readers once their alphas come back
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don't go changing everything.
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Try and find out what's at the root of the discord.
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So your alpha readers should be more than one.
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They should be your target audience and at least minimum of two people.
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Correct.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Makes sense.
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Even alpha the first.
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They're interested.
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Okay, then the beta.
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Beta readers.
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So you're going to then decide to freshen things up, change,
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maybe do some revisions.
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People should really keep themselves open for the revision process.
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Here's the thing, you could write forever.
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You could revise forever.
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At some point you need to say, we're done.
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But this is your opportunity to get some voices in the door and
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reflect on your work so that you can see how it hits someone else.
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Because when we write, we write alone.
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And so we're not always, we know what we wanted to say.
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Did we make what we wanted to say clear to someone else?
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Your beta reader is kind of the same as your alpha reader.
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Same thing.
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I would just go with one or two.
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You just want to get an idea if the changes that you made are
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still hitting in the fashion.
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Did you make re revisions that changed the way?
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Whatever your discords did you get rid of those?
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Sometimes they might bring up a new element and once again, I would say.
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If that's a new element, no one else had seen before.
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It doesn't mean it's not something you want to change, but you
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really do need to step back.
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And ask yourself, why did this come up for this group of people?
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And is it really a larger issue that needs to be addressed?
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Okay.
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So at the end of that part of the editing process, you
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have had a developmental edit.
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You have alpha and beta readers.
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And then you had your copy edit that's going to clean everything
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up and make it gorgeous.
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The next set of edits would be proof and that's after the printer has
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returned what the book is supposed to be laid out and looks like.
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You would have a proof to read through that that's what we call that mock
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up of your book is called a proof.
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So proof reading is actually reading that mock up of the book every time it
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changes made it changes something else.
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Proofreading could actually, in that process of getting it printed,
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there could be a double word because the printer did something weird.
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So you're once again, you're combing through this thing to see
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if it's turned out as you intended.
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If sometimes if people have said they've had things, in the proof it's come back
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and there have been missing paragraphs or we don't want that to happen very often.
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Clearly you want a reputable person, but it can happen.
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And the proof is the time to catch that.
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All right.
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And this is after the print.
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After it's been printed.
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This is not a print for the world.
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Okay, this is your personal.
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This is your personal.
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It's a first run.
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of what the book would look like if it goes.
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So they're giving you a chance to look at it to find any errors
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that have happened in this.
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Because what's missing in this process here is the design phase.
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I'm just really going through the editing phase.
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Yes.
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Once you've finished your copy edit, your publisher, and you have
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decided you're ready to go to print, you're going to have a designer
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come in to make the book pretty.
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So after your proof, then you now bring in the publisher who
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will make that book look pretty.
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No.
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Oh, I missed it.
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Actually, after the copyedit.
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Okay.
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After the copy edit, you have a clean manuscript that's been gone
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over by your alpha and beta readers.
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You're technically done with the book at this point.
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Okay.
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This is when you want the design phase of the book to happen.
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Okay.
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A book designer there's several different parts.
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Usually a book designer is going to make the inside of the book look pleasing.
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You have many options.
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You have different options with fonts.
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You know, you've seen books that have little scrolls around the numbers.
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You've seen books that have title pages that are elaborate or clean.
26:04
You've seen the numbers at the top and the corner at the bottom.
26:08
You've seen the page layout where sometimes starts the top that, you
26:13
know, all of those decisions are going to be through your designer.
26:20
Mmmm.
26:22
Gotcha.
26:22
So now the inside of the book starts to take place, that gets
26:26
a beautiful look to it as well.
26:29
You have table contents, all those kinds of things, the book designer is
26:33
going to make all that uniform for you.
26:37
And at the end of that, there would be a cover design and the cover design
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is like a billboard on the highway.
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You are driving by, you see it.
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It's got to tell you everything.
26:49
It has to catch your eye, has to give you all the information you need to want
26:54
to call the number on the billboard.
26:56
The front of your book is the billboard.
26:59
It has to catch your eye while you're walking by the shelf.
27:03
And make that person want to pick it up.
27:07
Oh, right.
27:09
And then the publisher.
27:12
Then, well, the publishing is going to depend upon whether you go through a...
27:17
We should do that after.
27:18
Because this is kind of the trail through the journey of the words
27:23
after, as they're written, then edited.
27:27
Then once you're done with your copy editor, we would be hopefully you're
27:30
done writing the book at that point.
27:33
Then the design comes and it's all pretty.
27:36
Now it goes to print.
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That first.
27:40
Here's what it's going to look like when it's printed.
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That's your proof.
27:45
Okay.
27:46
That comes back to you and you go, Oh, I don't like the cover design.
27:49
I want it this way.
27:51
Or you go, Oh, the opening pages look fabulous.
27:54
Okay.
27:54
I see that chapter three is out of order with chapter four.
27:59
We need to flip that.
28:00
Whatever those, that's when you're going through and you're looking
28:03
for, there's two words, there's two dots on this page, all of that.
28:07
That's that nitpicky.
28:09
What has happened between when your copy editor turned in and it got laid out
28:13
for print through with all the design?
28:16
What has changed?
28:17
How do we fix that?
28:18
Okay.
28:19
All right.
28:21
Okay.
28:23
Then once all that's done, that's your proofread.
28:27
When you're done there, then it's going to print.
28:29
And whatever you said yes to, that's what's going to come out as your book.
28:36
Oh, you know, we've been talking for almost 30 minutes.
28:40
Can you believe it?
28:41
That this is a 30 minute show?
28:43
All right.
28:44
So tell us how we get to the publishing then.
28:47
So publishing really, again, depends upon what that dream is.
28:50
Okay.
28:52
So if your dream is that you're writing a children's book, you want
28:55
your grandchildren have, you're going to publish that book yourself.
28:59
You're the publisher.
29:02
You're going to go through some self publishing program or maybe a hybrid
29:08
program where they kind of help you a little bit, but mostly it's on you.
29:12
And then you're going to publish that book.
29:14
You're responsible for everything about it.
29:16
And every time somebody orders a book, it gets printed.
29:20
That's the easiest way to go.
29:22
Hybrid publishers or would be what they call boutiques.
29:28
Those are really good for people who are self publishing and need a little help.
29:33
The next phase up from that would be a small publisher.
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They're usually going to do a particular genre.
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They're really strong.
29:41
They have a really good hold in the market in that particular genre.
29:45
So let's say memoir is your genre.
29:48
That's their thing that they do at this small publishing house.
29:51
They would have to accept your work in and if they accept your work in,
29:56
then the publisher would probably provide you with your copy editor.
30:01
The publisher would provide you with your book designer.
30:04
The publisher would do the proofing and then there would be
30:09
a contractual arrangement about royalties and how those are split.
30:15
Then there's the big publishing houses.
30:20
You don't go to them.
30:21
You fire someone who is your agent.
30:24
The agent pitches your work to the publishing house.
30:28
And then if they agree, then a contract is set up and they will take over that
30:34
process of alpha and beta readers and so they take it over a lot sooner,
30:40
and they cover more of that process.
30:44
Oh, that's really been an eye opener, because these days we see so many
30:48
people are authors, you know, so many people have written books.
30:54
So many people are number one authors on Amazon and I ask myself how
31:00
did they get through all of that?
31:02
So you've really broken it down for me to know the process that's involved.
31:10
Yeah, very helpful.
31:11
All right.
31:13
So, of course, we would love to talk more, but we are limited in time.
31:17
So anyone who needs to talk more with you, of course, we'll talk
31:20
with you during the Q& A session.
31:22
But for people who may will listen to this or view it later on.
31:26
How can they get in touch with you online?
31:29
The best way to get in touch with me is through my website at my business.
31:34
There's a button there that you can click on and make an
31:38
appointment to speak with me.
31:40
And that's write journeys.
31:42
Like you're writing.
31:44
I love it.
31:45
I love the name.
31:46
writejourneys.com.
31:48
If you go to writejourneys.com, you'll see about me and all the different
31:53
things that I offer and you can make an appointment to talk to me.
31:59
Okay.
31:59
Oh, what about email?
32:00
Can they email you or you rather they just go...
32:02
They can.
32:03
The best way to get my email and everything if you're on LinkedIn all of
32:08
my contact information is on LinkedIn.
32:12
I have my email address, the link to my website.
32:16
You can always email direct message through LinkedIn as well.
32:21
It's my primary social media course.
32:23
So that's also another great way to reach me.
32:27
Me too.
32:28
LinkedIn is my primary social media platform.
32:32
I love it.
32:33
And so folks, as I promised you, you will learn something new because I did.
32:39
That was Donna Knutson.
32:43
And if you would like to be a guest on my show, just as she has been,
32:48
please reach out to me on my website, which is chattingwiththeexperts.Com.
32:52
I'm also on LinkedIn, my primary social media platform, as Paula
32:57
Okonneh . On Instagram, my page there is at chat_experts_podcast,
33:07
and I'm on Facebook as Paula Okonneh.
33:10
Donna, this has been good.
33:12
I've taken so many notes.
33:15
And, you know, but I still feel there's so much more to talk about,
33:20
we may need you to come on again.
33:22
And...
33:23
It would be my pleasure.
33:26
Yes.
33:27
So I'm formally inviting you.
33:30
Well, you can hear you're my witness, but those who have listened, she has said yes.
33:36
Thank you so much, Donna.
33:38
Thank you as well.