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75. Why History Matters in Family Constellations with Dr. Anngwyn St. Just · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators fro- and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Today, I have the utmost pleasure of chatting with Angwin St. Just, who, for me, is someone that I have admired for a very long time, since my beginning of constellation work, and I've had the pleasure of, of being in her company and meeting her in, a number of times.
• 0:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Angwin, welcome.
• 0:57
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Thank you.
• 0:57
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, greetings from Sedona.
• 1:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Beautiful background you have there, all the amazing colors in the hills and... Yeah.
• 1:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And I know the energies- It's
• 1:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: all real.
• 1:10
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It looks like a r- a Photoshop, but the colors here, the shadows really are blue and purple.
• 1:18
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, it's a very beautiful place.
• 1:20
  Tracy Cartwright: The land itself has amazing depth of color, too, isn't it?
• 1:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, the rich- Yes ... reds and browns and, mm, goldens.
• 1:29
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 1:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: the night, night skies here in the desert are quite special.
• 1:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I imagine.
• 1:36
  Tracy Cartwright: So for those who don't know you, Angwin, and I'm sure there, there'll be very few, but for those who don't know you, I'd love for you to introduce yourself a little bit.
• 1:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Who you are, where you're from, what- whatever's sitting there for you.
• 1:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Whatever's at the top.
• 1:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Well, socially, I've been a little bit uncomfortable when people ask me, uh, "What do you do?" And it's like, mm. Uh, how many people have heard of social traumatology, or what is a traumatologist, or what does that have to do with anything?
• 2:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But that's what I am.
• 2:11
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Actually, I am a social traumatologist.
• 2:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Social traumatologist.
• 2:17
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And... Yes.
• 2:18
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And my first, uh, profession- Was, uh, as a nurse, and I was- Mm ... an emergency room nurse.
• 2:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And in those days, I was at Johns Hopkins in inner city Baltimore, and there was no such thing as a trauma center.
• 2:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We only had emergency rooms.
• 2:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I was an ER nurse, and, um, I was barely 20, and not ready for what I encountered after graduation.
• 2:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: You know- Mm ... being a student is one experience, but being, um ... And because I was new and I had to take the night shift, what I encountered was, um, social trauma, but there was no word for it then.
• 3:11
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: The hospital was, uh, in a ghetto during, uh, segregation.
• 3:18
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It was the beginning of the civil rights movement, and, um, the anti-war movement, and the feminist revolution.
• 3:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. And all at once, and I, I was not prepared for the really coming in direct contact with social trauma.
• 3:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 3:38
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, so what is social trauma?
• 3:40
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Social trauma, we know what individual trauma, that's familiar to most, but, uh, social trauma is really trauma that affects systems larger than the family.
• 3:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 3:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So, uh, in the '60s, just about every system was, uh, in upheaval, and I was not prepared at that age.
• 4:07
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um, I had never been to the South.
• 4:10
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I didn't know, you know.
• 4:12
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I felt like I was in a really bad movie and I needed to do something, something really different than-
• 4:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah...
• 4:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: uh, So I decided this was not a profession for me.
• 4:28
  Tracy Cartwright: I wanted nothing to do with trauma.
• 4:31
  Tracy Cartwright: So my solution was to become an art historian.
• 4:36
  Tracy Cartwright: I thought, "Oh, that, that will be lovely. I will-" No trauma in that.
• 4:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No.
• 4:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I will spend my day in libraries and museums, and no one will scream and bleed and die and nothing.
• 4:52
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It's very quiet.
• 4:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: However, during my graduate studies at Berkeley, um, I was writing seminar papers like, um, the effect of the Black Death on 13th century fresco painting, and, um, Edvard Munch and tuberculosis.
• 5:12
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I mean, it was all medical trauma And I realized, well, how far did I really get from the emergency room?
• 5:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It was like, well, actually, now I'm a historian, but I'm looking at many of the same issues.
• 5:31
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I was, um, in that time very unaware of war trauma and really trauma itself.
• 5:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: You know, I knew about trauma to the body, trauma to the tissue, but I didn't know about psychological trauma.
• 5:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I had studied so hard'cause we had to, um, show proficiency in three languages.
• 6:00
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, they were, uh, French, and I was fine with that, Italian, fine with that, and German, and I was not fine with that.
• 6:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, uh, my neck went into spasms, and I discovered body work and Rolfing and craniosacral.
• 6:19
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I somehow managed to not notice that my family lineage, you know, was war trauma just about every, uh, generation, and for my generation, for my parents and grandparents who put the big enemy was Germany.
• 6:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Tracy Cartwright: So- I was just gonna ask that.
• 6:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Y- yeah ... big,
• 6:40
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: oh, ma- major Yeah And so studying German was just, ugh, blah, blah.
• 6:46
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I I didn't wanna do it.
• 6:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But all the great art historians since the very beginning, almost all were German, so you can't really be a credible scholar if you don't at least read German.
• 7:00
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I got seriously interested in body work because what I was learning, this was in, uh, Bay Area, San Francisco, where they were doing all kinds of amazing body work.
• 7:12
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: What I was learning about anatomy, physiology, and also emotional anatomy was nothing like I learned at Johns Hopkins, uh, nothing, a very different whole, all about fascia and hmm.
• 7:27
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I decided to study Rolfing.
• 7:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I thought, "I'm a nurse. I can do this." I did the first training, and then I was invited to a party with Dr.
• 7:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Rolf.
• 7:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And there she was, you know, she was 80.
• 7:45
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I thought that was very old at the time.
• 7:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Oh, she's ancient.
• 7:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, uh, Peter Levine was there, and he's also a Rolfer, and he was ahead of me a year, uh, in graduate school at Berkeley.
• 8:03
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I was listening.
• 8:04
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: He was talking about dinosaurs and evolution and reptilian- Mm brains and trauma And I thought,"Wait a minute, reptilian brain?" You know, I thought, "I have to, I have to get to know him."
• 8:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 8:20
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I asked, "How do you, how do you meet Peter Levine?" And they said, "Oh, you give a party, he'll come." I was, you know, I, I was new to the whole scene, so I went to see his brother, who was an acupuncturist, and I said, "Hi, I'm new, uh, to the body work community, and, um, I was-"
• 8:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry,
• 8:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: what was
• 8:42
  Tracy Cartwright: he?
• 8:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Acupuncturist.
• 8:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, an acupuncturist.
• 8:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay, yep.
• 8:46
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 8:46
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So then, "I'm new and, um, I'm in Alfred now, and I'd love to meet Peter, and I was told I should give a party, but I don't know who to invite.""Oh," he said, "I'll help you." So he gave me a list of Peter's friends.
• 9:03
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I called them all up and I said, "I'm g- I'm giving a party and Peter's coming." And, and they said, "Oh, wow, Peter's coming." So, uh, then I called Peter, and I said, "We have a party and all your friends are coming." "Oh, all my friends are coming." So, you know, I got to meet Peter 'cause it was my party.
• 9:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. I got his attention.
• 9:24
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: He said, "You're a nurse, you know trauma in the body. I'm launching this Somatic Experiencing, and maybe you'd like to join." So we gave, um, a presentation at Berkeley in the School of Public Health on Wilhelm Reich and his theories.
• 9:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Then we launched the Somatic Experiencing training in my Berkeley living room with 15 people, Tracy.
• 9:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 9:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 9:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Wow.
• 9:54
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And we had no idea that it w- you know, and I don't know how many tens of thousands have taken the training, trauma training.
• 10:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I was the first SE teacher, and I learned a lot about trauma in the body, but I only knew how to work with one person, working with trauma as a psychosomatic-
• 10:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm...
• 10:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: issue about restoring And then I was teaching SE in Munich, and my students were running off every weekend to what I understood was this uptight old priest who was putting things in order, and I thought, "Oh no, that's nothing for me.
• 10:46
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm working with chaos, vortexes." Yeah.
• 10:49
  Tracy Cartwright: So I never went to see Bert.
• 10:53
  Tracy Cartwright: And then when Peter and I were in Colorado- Um, Bert made his first, um, trip to the US, uh, with Hunter Beaumont as his translator, 'cause Bert wasn't sure of his English yet.
• 11:12
  Tracy Cartwright: And so I went, and in the US nobody really knew who Bert Hellinger was.
• 11:19
  Tracy Cartwright: And so, uh, I knew who he was 'cause some of my students were running off to this uptight old priest.
• 11:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So there were f- about 15 people there, maybe 14 Germans and me, and um, I sat, you know, right up front, r- center, 'cause I really wanted to get a look at this person.
• 11:46
  Tracy Cartwright: And this sweet old man came in in a rumpled suit with Hunter, and he sat down and he said, "Okay, who wants to work?" And I thought, "What?
• 12:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Who wants to work?
• 12:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Where's the PowerPoint, the handouts, the reading list?" And I thought, "What is this?
• 12:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Just who wants to work?" So of course all the Germans wanted to work, and Bert set up the constellation, and then, um, the representatives started shaking, and they were, "Ah, ah, ah," you know.
• 12:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And I thought, "What's with these shaking Germans?" You know.
• 12:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, I still hadn't resolved my own war trauma.
• 12:37
  Tracy Cartwright: So anyway, they're, you know, they're all shaking, and then Bert, he was very clear, he was very calm, and he said, "Of course.
• 12:49
  Tracy Cartwright: There's been a murder." And I thought, "A murder?
• 12:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't see a murder.
• 12:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Where, where, where, where, what is he talking about?" The p- they're shaking chair.
• 13:01
  Tracy Cartwright: There's been a murder.
• 13:02
  Tracy Cartwright: What?
• 13:03
  Tracy Cartwright: And so it turned out there had been a murder in this system, and it was the murder of a child.
• 13:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 13:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 13:12
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I saw this coming to resolution, and I thought, "How does he know that? I didn't see any murder. I just saw shaking Germans." And I thought maybe this gentleman knows how to work with more than one person with trauma.
• 13:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. And
• 13:38
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I need to know that.
• 13:40
  So got to be about 5: 00, and Bert said,"I'm going to go get some dinner, then I'm going to come back, and I will be here for questions." So maybe seven of us went back and- We were sitting on the floor around his chair, and I looked at him and I said,"You have the missing piece for trauma." He said, "Yes, and you have the missing piece for constellations."
• 14:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 14:16
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I thought,"Oh." That, Tracy, was an absolute life-changing moment-
• 14:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah... ' Dr. Anngwyn St Just: cause it was true.
• 14:25
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, he invited me to travel with him.
• 14:29
  Tracy Cartwright: He was going to do, um, a pilot project in England, uh, in Windsor, three different prisons, to study the v- uh, victim-perpetrator dynamic, and, um, only with, uh, convicted murderers, all men.
• 14:54
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, of course, I went, and, um, again, I was the only American.
• 15:01
  Tracy Cartwright: And we served as representatives in the prison work, and then we could have dinner with Bert every night and, uh, ask questions and so forth, and that's when I met, um, Gunter Treber, and Stefan Hauser, and, uh, Berthold Sommer- Yeah ... and so forth.
• 15:24
  Tracy Cartwright: And so they put me opposite Bert at dinner because I was new.
• 15:32
  Tracy Cartwright: So I looked up, and he was looking at me like, "So?" And I had a very good undergraduate Catholic education, although I'm not Catholic, was never Catholic, but to be an art historian for certain periods, like Renaissance, you really need to know, uh, Catholic iconography and so forth.
• 15:59
  Tracy Cartwright: So, I, there was still s- you know, something about Bert, he had this kind of priest aura, so, you know, I looked at him- Mm ... and I had this urge to confess.
• 16:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So I, I blurted out and I said, "I just got my first hate letter." And, and, you know, he, and then he smiled, and he said, "Oh, only one?" And of course I was ch- immediately cured.
• 16:32
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, he was an absolute minimalist.
• 16:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah Bert used ve- very few words, but s- spot on.
• 16:40
  Tracy Cartwright: So he was intensely interested in trauma, and we had wonderful conversations over the years, and he wanted to meet Peter Levine, and Peter was not so keen because he'd heard that, um, constellation work was re-traumatizing people and blah, blah, blah.
• 17:01
  Tracy Cartwright: So, uh, Peter said, "Okay, but not without you." So the three of us did a workshop in, uh, Lake Lucerne in Switzerland, and we had our little round table by the lake where we had breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and we could have extensive private conversations.
• 17:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And Peter likes to sleep in, so I had Bert to myself for breakfast, so most of our conversations revol- uh, revolved around, uh, trauma and the darker aspects of the- Yeah
• 17:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: human condition.
• 17:45
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And of course, as a priest, he was very familiar, but also, um, he was, uh, like me, a child of war, and he was very interested in war trauma and shared some of his experiences.
• 18:02
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: He was drafted into the Wehrmacht, the German army, at age 14.
• 18:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 18:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So, um, we had
• 18:11
  Tracy Cartwright: a lot of- Is that the, um, the, is that the, the youth army?
• 18:14
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Wehrmacht?
• 18:14
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No, that's regular German army.
• 18:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, at 14?
• 18:18
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: At 14.
• 18:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh my gosh.
• 18:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 18:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And he was, um, assigned to...
• 18:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: There were, you know, they, they were expecting an allied invasion, uh, in France, and the Germans were expecting, um, that the allies would come at the shortest distance between England and France, which was Calais.
• 18:45
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And Bert was in the tunnels, the chalk tunnels, uh, while they were waiting for the invasion, which of course didn't come to Calais, um, it would came in at Utah Beach or Oklahoma Beach and so forth.
• 19:00
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But he said there were, like, lines, electrical lines in the tunnels, and he would unscrew the light and stick his finger in the tu- the socket just to feel something
• 19:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 19:19
  Tracy Cartwright: To get a
• 19:19
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: shock ... he was at, he was 14, and he wanted to feel something, you know?
• 19:24
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah So, I mean, and, and he was captured by the British, and he was a prisoner of war, uh, until the end of the war, and so forth.
• 19:33
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So-
• 19:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 19:35
  Tracy Cartwright: So, so, so can I, can I just quick ask you that?
• 19:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Sure.
• 19:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Captured by the British, so kept in a British prisoner of war camp?
• 19:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 19:42
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause the, the stories kind of morph a little bit as they go along, right?
• 19:46
  Tracy Cartwright: So it's great to hear it from someone like yourself who has that first-hand knowledge.
• 19:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 19:51
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause my understanding was that he was captured by the Russians, so.
• 19:55
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No.
• 19:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No.
• 19:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Okay His brother died on the Russian front, in Stalingrad.
• 20:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, okay.
• 20:02
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But Bert wasn't in Russia, and his brother died in s- uh, Stalingrad-
• 20:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah...
• 20:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: was my understanding.
• 20:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay
• 20:14
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And he told me that he was very well treated by the British, and that's why he wanted to go to British prisons, to give something back.
• 20:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, wow.
• 20:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 20:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 20:31
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So this was a major turning point in my life and my professional, uh, understanding of, um, trauma in systems larger than the individual nervous system.
• 20:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 20:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So this completely changed the way I worked with couples, the way I worked with families, and I, because I'm a historian, I also got interested in the context in which these relationships evolved.
• 21:04
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So in 2016, Bert was in Mexico City, and Raquel Schlosser was translating.
• 21:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:14
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And he gave, I think, one of the most important lectures, uh, for many people, particularly healthcare professionals, who are used to working one-on-one.
• 21:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 21:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And finding a diagnosis and all that traditional stuff.
• 21:36
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I was trained in that, 'cause after art history and going into body work, I, the licensing boards in California were not enthusiastic in, about art historians practicing any kind of, uh... And same for Peter.
• 21:54
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Peter was a medical biophysicist, and they didn't think they should be doing therapy either, so we- Yeah went back and got graduate deg- degrees so that we had some credibility.
• 22:07
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So Bert gave a talk- Which he called the greater forces that shape individual lives, relationships, families, and larger systems.
• 22:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And then he named what are these greater forces.
• 22:25
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Well, of course, war.
• 22:26
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. And famine, and epidemics.
• 22:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Well, of course, you know, the Black Plague is an obvious, um, game changer that-
• 22:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 22:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: uh, shifted, uh, Western Europe from, uh, a fiefdom to, uh, a system which evolved into the Renai- uh, the Renaissance, uh, because, uh, there were no workers.
• 22:55
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And a very few that were left had to be paid.
• 22:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So that was the beginning of the middle class, and then Renaissance banking and so forth.
• 23:07
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So we have war, and this whole game-changing um, epidemic as a force of social change came up again with the COVID agenda.
• 23:19
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: There's another one that was launching a worldwide, uh, shift and social change economically, uh, and so forth.
• 23:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So we have war, famine, epidemics, civil unrest, religion, economic collapse, and I think if I could add to that list, and I, I didn't get a chance to talk to Bert about this, but I think radiation is another one.
• 23:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Radiation,
• 23:52
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 23:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Another force of social change, one of the greater forces.
• 23:57
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I began to s- ask clients, issue holders, whatever we were calling them, uh, in different countries,"Was anybody in your family ever in..." Oh, immigration and emigration, huge forces of social change.
• 24:15
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I began to ask, "Was anybody in your family ever in a war?" And no therapist had ever asked them that, and very often it turns out that war had in fact been a major force in shaping- Mm ... their families.
• 24:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And then you have shooting wars, you have religious war, you have civil war, you have genocide, economic war, class war.
• 24:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And then I began, and the c- uh, client could also see, oh, because I did train as a marriage and family therapist, we got genograms and family trees, but there were these patterns were all about personalities in the system.
• 25:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Grandfather was an alcoholic, grandmother was depressed, aunt so-and-so committed suicide.
• 25:15
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They ne- there was no mention of the war or the epidemic or the immigration or, and I began researching these patterns because I could see that these traumas were repeating through generations, and that's a whole topic in itself.
• 25:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So then the historian in me pretty much took over, where I would be- always ask myself, what is the context in which this person's system evolved?
• 25:55
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And it was very interesting.
• 25:57
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: With immigration, I would say something like, "Were you born in this country?
• 26:03
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Were your parents born in this country?
• 26:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: If not, where did they come from?
• 26:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Why did they leave?" And what Bert figured out was who was left behind-
• 26:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm...
• 26:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: and what happened whoever was left behind, if they had a difficult fate, were likely entangled with a later generation.
• 26:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So- Mm...
• 26:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: um, I found this, I therapy training about immigration or what was, why did they leave, and, you know, here in the States, also in South America, the, the usual story is, oh, they left because of, uh, they wanted a better life, or they wanted job or something.
• 26:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Usually, the story was much darker- Yeah...
• 27:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: about pogroms, and this, they had just never thought about those things, that that had anything to do with their lives now or their relationships now.
• 27:21
  Tracy Cartwright: And with couples, Bert had found, um, when they come from, and they often did come from, uh, countries or religions or so forth, political parties, with a history of opposition, so he said there's a natural affinity because there is a force toward a resolution.
• 27:50
  Tracy Cartwright: But- Right
• 27:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They don't see it.
• 27:52
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They just, "Oh, we're so in love, and it doesn't matter that I'm German and you're Jewish, and it doesn't matter, you know, that, uh, I'm Native American and you're Black," and so forth and so on.
• 28:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And yes, it does matter because after the limerence, you know, the first romantic, um, dazzling times, which lasts maybe 10 minutes to two years.
• 28:18
  Tracy Cartwright: The honeymoon period.
• 28:19
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, 10 minutes to two years is... What happens is that the unresolved complex from their systems comes into the relationship, and what I was talking with Jan-Arthur Storr about this too, and he sees this in organizations as well.
• 28:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Hmm.
• 28:40
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And with business partners.
• 28:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Okay, yeah.
• 28:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So it's not only family.
• 28:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So for me, uh, I realized how I'm not just a trauma specialist, I'm a social trauma specialist.
• 28:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So then I thought, "Well, okay, I'm a social traumatologist." And I am, and there are not very many of us.
• 29:05
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 29:06
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 29:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember when I first met you, and, um, and you referred to yourself as a traumatologist, traumatologist.
• 29:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 29:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And I was like, "I've never even heard the word." Absolutely fascinated by it.
• 29:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 29:19
  Tracy Cartwright: But, um, and as you shared and w- were imparting your wisdom, it was like, of course you are.
• 29:25
  Tracy Cartwright: You've got so much knowledge and, um, insights, and obviously with the things that you've learnt, the things you've studied, and the opportunities that have arisen for you, as well as your family system, right?
• 29:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, and, and Peter, of course, didn't wanna go there.
• 29:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: He wants to stay very much with his own brand, which is somatic experiencing and the individual.
• 29:52
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I, I think, uh, there's a lot of methods out there about trauma, but I think somatic experiencing is by far the most effective and-
• 30:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah...
• 30:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: easiest on the of remembering or going back through.
• 30:13
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, as Peter says, you knew the experience, and once that's enough.
• 30:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, so, you know, I think, uh, he's still one of the great masters, uh, in the- Mm ... field of trauma.
• 30:27
  Tracy Cartwright: But- Yeah ... not so he, he really- Is not as fascinated as I am with history, and, uh, at one point, you know, he said, "You know, uh, you need your own organization'cause you're doing social trauma." And I thought, "Yeah, that's right." Mm-hmm.
• 30:48
  Tracy Cartwright: And we s- you know, we worked together 40 years on and off, um, happily.
• 30:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and somewhat less after we each had our own, um, territories, shall we say?
• 31:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, but I'm very comfortable with social traumatologist, and I have, um, spoken mostly at conferences about why history matters, because history is not taught in any mental health curriculum.
• 31:25
  Tracy Cartwright: And wait a minute, the greater forces matter.
• 31:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So sometimes I say to a client,"What year were you born?
• 31:35
  Tracy Cartwright: What was going on in the family when you were born?
• 31:38
  Tracy Cartwright: What was going on in the community?
• 31:41
  Tracy Cartwright: What was going on in the country?
• 31:43
  Tracy Cartwright: How about your parents and your grandparents?
• 31:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, do you have siblings?
• 31:51
  Tracy Cartwright: What year were they born?
• 31:53
  Tracy Cartwright: What was going on then?
• 31:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Was it different?" I found out an interesting thing.
• 31:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, I was born in 1943, in the middle of World War II, and I found that people who were born before World War II, although there's fewer and fewer of us, but during the war, tend to have a less optimistic view than people born after the war.
• 32:22
  Tracy Cartwright: And, uh, the post-war period was optimism.
• 32:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 32:27
  Tracy Cartwright: And, you know, what we grew up in was not, because, uh, there were no emails.
• 32:34
  Tracy Cartwright: There was no internet.
• 32:35
  Tracy Cartwright: There was no... All we knew, basically, was a once-a-week radio broadcast.
• 32:41
  Tracy Cartwright: So there was a lot of not knowing about what was happening on the other, in the other countries.
• 32:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, so it's a very different field to be born into and grow up than, uh, post-war.
• 32:58
  Tracy Cartwright: So, um, my, uh, theme in recent years has been, uh, you heard this at, at the conference in Mexico, why history matters.
• 33:11
  Tracy Cartwright: And people go, "History, why should we care about history? Nobody likes history. History is boring." No, it isn't.
• 33:17
  Tracy Cartwright: We had boring history teachers, but- Yeah history- History's fascinating when you, when you start- Yeah Yeah.
• 33:24
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm.
• 33:24
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And it keeps changing, 'cause, you know, the history I learned in school was not true.
• 33:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um- Oh ... I
• 33:31
  Tracy Cartwright: learned
• 33:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: that Columbus discovered America.
• 33:34
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We used to sing a little song, you know.
• 33:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
• 33:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No, he didn't.
• 33:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: He never set foot on North America, so, you know, it's be- history is not one solid thing, it's fluid.
• 33:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm.
• 33:52
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 33:52
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I find that interesting, and, uh, I, I think it's integral to constellation work.
• 34:00
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 34:00
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And Bert obviously, he thought that in, uh, 2016 speech that he gave in Mexico City.
• 34:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Now, there was a lot of, uh, resistance to that, 'cause in South America, uh, it's like, you know, I've been working in South America for over 30 years on and off, and the, they are absolutely emphatic to stick with the family.
• 34:28
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They wanna do family, family, family.
• 34:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And in the larger international community in recent years, there's been, uh, finally some interesting c- I think they're calling it collective trauma.
• 34:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, and, um, there's been some misuse of that for political distortion, I think.
• 34:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. But, uh, I think it's necessary that people who wanna facilitate at least, um, pay some attention to- Mm context, not just symptoms.
• 35:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 35:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely, and I think in the last, in the recent six years have been a really interesting awareness of that for, um, you know, I, I will witness that in the constellation realm, just all that was happening and, and what it was bringing up for people, um, what it was revealing, yeah.
• 35:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 35:26
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And you know, what happened in the international, uh, constellation community and the community here in the US was very divisive.
• 35:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. And, um, I don't believe that has healed.
• 35:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 35:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And nobody wants to talk about it.
• 35:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm.
• 35:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But I talk about it, which has made me persona non grata in certain circles, 'cause I think we need to talk about it because- Yeah epidemics are a force of social change.
• 35:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 36:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Does that link into the... 'Cause you have some, you have books on, I've got one here of yours.
• 36:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh-huh.
• 36:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Can you see that?
• 36:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Trauma- Yeah ... Time, Space and Fractals.
• 36:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm.
• 36:10
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Why- Traumas repeat
• 36:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Yeah
• 36:15
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And this is probably what I'm best known for outside of constellation work, because, uh, what I discovered was that, um, what we would call transgenerational trauma is a fractal phenomena.
• 36:33
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, you know, the universe has a sense of humor.
• 36:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I'm clear about that.
• 36:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I have always been dyslexic, uh, with numbers.
• 36:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah So m- mathematics is just very, always has been very difficult for me.
• 36:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, I still have trouble with simple arithmetic.
• 36:55
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So when I was working at a family practice clinic in Boulder, Peter and I were the trauma llamas for this community, and so the local doctors sent us every patient they didn't wanna deal with, and they were mostly chronic pain, and most of the chronic pain was accidents.
• 37:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 37:20
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I got to the clinic, and I was given a stack of charts, "These are your patients." I looked through these charts, and these patients didn't have one accident.
• 37:34
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: H- some of them had, like, 15 accidents.
• 37:38
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I thought, "Who has 15 accidents?"
• 37:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 37:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I went through all the charts, and I thought, "Well, this is simple.
• 37:47
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Obviously, they, they have a substance abuse problem.
• 37:52
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They're driving impaired." No, not one.
• 37:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So then I knew I had a mystery.
• 38:00
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I'm what you might call a bubble bath theorist.
• 38:04
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: You know?
• 38:05
  Tracy Cartwright: A bubble bath-
• 38:06
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Theorist...
• 38:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 38:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Theorist, yeah.
• 38:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, so when I would get stuck, I'd get in the bubble bath, and the answer, Tracy, was right in front of me, and I didn't see it, 'cause, you know, bubbles?
• 38:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 38:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: When they, they get larger, and then you see the s- Yes ... on the bubble before they burst.
• 38:28
  Tracy Cartwright: The iridescent pattern, yeah.
• 38:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, they're fractals.
• 38:31
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Oh.
• 38:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I didn't know what a fractal was.
• 38:34
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Of course, mathematics was not for me, and, um, but I am very good at pattern recognition, but not... So, um, I found out, somebody brought me a book that had a Fibonacci pattern on it.
• 38:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm.
• 38:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And
• 38:53
  Tracy Cartwright: I
• 38:54
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: thought, "That's what I'm seeing in my patients," because I asked them to write down the date of their, um, accident.
• 39:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah
• 39:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, um, I found that accidents tend to happen on the anniversary of broken connections.
• 39:14
  Tracy Cartwright: It's amazing, isn't
• 39:16
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: it?
• 39:16
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm.
• 39:17
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So then I found out about fractals and fractal geometry.
• 39:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 39:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And then physicists saying, some physicists saying, and mathematicians are saying we live in a fractal universe, that we live in a hologram.
• 39:34
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I thought, "Oh, that's above my pay grade." But I have seen clinically that this is true.
• 39:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 39:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I began looking into it in depth, and then I wrote, uh, Space, Time and Fractals and Why This Matters, uh, for Individual and Collective Trauma.
• 39:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um- These are- And I got la- I got laughed at a lot, but no more.
• 40:00
  Tracy Cartwright: But you were able to link, um, multiple, I mean, n- numerous, uh, different things.
• 40:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, I was thinking about the Columbine-
• 40:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm...
• 40:10
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Tracy Cartwright: tragedy, Yeah.
• 40:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and that was linked to a massacre that was on the same grounds.
• 40:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Was it- Mm-hmm 150 years or 200 years before or something?
• 40:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Also, the same date as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
• 40:28
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It was, um, a lot of other, uh, significant dates.
• 40:33
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: April 19th and 20th are flashpoints in collective trauma.
• 40:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: April 20th was Hitler's birthday, and the shooters, the boys, were neo-Nazis.
• 40:47
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And they were learning German and, you know, they were like, "Heil Hitler." Um, and they had planned, um, to do the shooting on Hitler's birthday, but because of they weren't really very good at making bombs and so forth and so on, actually, um, it happened the next day because they couldn't quite get their... They had bombs and grenades and I don't know what else, you know.
• 41:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 41:18
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But this date, and if you look at collective trauma, terrorists use these dates to make a statement, and these boys were no different.
• 41:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, they were using that particular date.
• 41:34
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It was also Waco.
• 41:35
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Do you remember Waco?
• 41:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Was it the same day?
• 41:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm
• 41:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow You know,
• 41:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: the two days, April 19th and 20th, are, uh, flash points.
• 41:45
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: September 11th is another one that goes back to the clash of civilizations between, um, the, uh, Ottoman East and the Western Christian forces.
• 41:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Wow.
• 41:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, September 8th, uh, September 11th, 1438, I think it was, 48.
• 42:06
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Gosh.
• 42:07
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 42:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 42:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Also, that was the date that Bush Senior announced the New World Order.
• 42:14
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, there's just a lot on September 11th.
• 42:17
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I began to s- see these patterns in history, but also in individual systems, and that began with tracking the dates of the accidents.
• 42:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Now, several of my patients had airplane crashes, and sometimes they were passengers, sometimes they were pilots or crew.
• 42:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 42:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, um, when the Sioux City air crash happened, uh, United Airlines, their hub was, uh, Denver, and we were in Boulder.
• 42:54
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um, Peter and I had the sur- some of the survivors as patients, and what I found is every single one of them had a history of either airplane crashes in their own life or- Wow in their system.
• 43:13
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Now, if you look at the Kennedys, for example, um, airplane, uh, disasters in their system going back to World War II.
• 43:23
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: JFK's sister died in a plane crash.
• 43:26
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: JFK Jr., of course, uh, in a plane crash.
• 43:31
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Ted Kennedy's plane was hit by lightning, and so on.
• 43:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 43:36
  Tracy Cartwright: S-
• 43:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: yeah, there are patterns.
• 43:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And then the question is once you find a pattern, what do you do?
• 43:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: How do you resolve it?
• 43:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And Bert, he had a three-way dialogue with Rupert Sheldrake and Anne Ancelin Schützenberger, and, um, yeah, I forgot who was moderating that, but might have been Albrecht Mahr, I'm not sure.
• 44:04
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But their question, these three, was, "Are curses real, and how do you know?" And so forth and so on.
• 44:11
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So, uh, that video is available through Hellinger DC, and I think-
• 44:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you know what it's called?
• 44:18
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Are Curses Real?
• 44:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, of course, that's obvious question.
• 44:22
  Tracy Cartwright: I
• 44:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: think.
• 44:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No, no, no.
• 44:23
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But Susan, um, Uhlfelder has it, and I think there's a transcript in English, I'm not sure.
• 44:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Okay.
• 44:31
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And maybe other languages.
• 44:33
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But all three Agreed.
• 44:36
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yes, that they're absolutely real.
• 44:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So these replicating patterns have been called curses, but it's replicating trauma.
• 44:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, you know, the ancient Greeks, you see that in the Trojan War, in the Iliad, in the Odyssey.
• 44:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: You see it in Shakespeare, and you see it in Edgar Allan Poe, The Pit and the Pendulum, and so forth and so on.
• 45:04
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um, that it's been in the arts, in theater and literature, but it was called something else, like a curse.
• 45:13
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Like The House of the Fall of Usher, that's a family system replicating trauma.
• 45:19
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. So I put it all together in that book.
• 45:23
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um, I think, you know, I've written 10 books.
• 45:27
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I think that's enough.
• 45:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, I've got quite a few of them, and I, all I could find before the, before our call were these, these two.
• 45:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: That's number two.
• 45:38
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And then the- First, first was, um-... second ... Relative Balance In An Unstable World, which first came out in German.
• 45:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Again, here's the irony.
• 45:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It was like I had such war trauma with the Germans, which of course the only healing really came through my relationship with Bert and my German colleagues, and working with war trauma in Germany.
• 46:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm. So I was an unknown author, and Bert picked up the phone and called, uh, what was then Kösel, his editor.
• 46:16
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It's now, I think, um, Random House Munich, and he said, "You have to publish this book." So they did, in German, and then Gundert Weber published in Germany an English version of Relative Balance.
• 46:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um, I think you might enjoy that one'cause it, it was before I Met Bird, and it's about how to use nature and un-psychological methods of working with trauma, and restoring broken connections.
• 46:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But, um, yeah, there's a total of 10, and I think I published 50 articles in the Knowing- Yeah...
• 46:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Tracy Cartwright: Field.
• 46:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: In the Knowing Field, yeah.
• 46:58
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 46:58
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 46:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: That's enough, no?
• 46:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: You
• 46:59
  Tracy Cartwright: contributed so much to the work, and so much to the field.
• 47:02
  Tracy Cartwright: It's just a beautiful honor to have you here on this conversation.
• 47:05
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um-
• 47:06
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Thank you, and I'm really delighted that people are beginning to realize that history matters.
• 47:12
  Tracy Cartwright: It really does.
• 47:14
  Tracy Cartwright: It really does.
• 47:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Before our conversation, and, and, I mean, this is history between you and I, but- Mm-hmm ... we, w- we were in Sydney, and, uh, one of the things that Janine liked to do was to have a little show on a Saturday night, you know, and you could get up and do a performance and stuff.
• 47:30
  Tracy Cartwright: And I had this little skit that I really, really, really wanted to do, but every time I thought about it, I ha- was having a, like a major panic attack.
• 47:38
  Tracy Cartwright: And I was like, I remember thinking,"This is really weird," because I'm not, you know... Younger me would've been very excited about this.
• 47:46
  Tracy Cartwright: And I was in the bathroom and I said to you, I said to you, we were passing, and I'd s- I think I'd said I really enjoyed what you'd shared, and I'd really wanted to get up there and do it, but I just couldn't do it.
• 47:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And you just stopped and looked at me, and you said, "Who in your family said you couldn't?" And I had this, and I had this flashback moment to being young and, and p- performing, and having a wonderful time, and then being told to stop showing off.
• 48:12
  Tracy Cartwright: And it was just that, it was just that little question that you asked, and it seemed to sh- and that shifted for me.
• 48:18
  Tracy Cartwright: So, uh, I just wanna say thank you for that passing-
• 48:22
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: A little, a little ladies' room wisdom.
• 48:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:26
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Ladies' room
• 48:26
  Tracy Cartwright: wisdom.
• 48:27
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, um, I learned, I think it was Peter told me a long time ago, "If you wanna know what's really going on in our workshop, go and hide in the ladies' room- ... and listen." And that's good advice.
• 48:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: True.
• 48:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: A lot of, a lot of truth comes out, and interesting other things in ladies' room exchanges.
• 48:50
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 48:50
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah.
• 48:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Thank you for telling me that.
• 48:52
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Um.
• 48:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:54
  Tracy Cartwright: No, that's, that's good.
• 48:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember, yeah.
• 48:58
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Then we saw each other in Mexico.
• 49:02
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Were you in Lisbon?
• 49:03
  Tracy Cartwright: No, I haven't been to Lisbon yet.
• 49:05
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I can't re- I couldn't remember seeing you in Lisbon.
• 49:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: That's 'cause you weren't there.
• 49:09
  Tracy Cartwright: That's why.
• 49:10
  Tracy Cartwright: No, I, I've met you a couple of times in Australia.
• 49:13
  Tracy Cartwright: I think three times.
• 49:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you been there three times?
• 49:16
  Tracy Cartwright: At least two, but no, three I think.
• 49:18
  Tracy Cartwright: The whole three times.
• 49:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 49:20
  Tracy Cartwright: And then, um, and then in Mexico as well, so really grateful.
• 49:23
  Tracy Cartwright: And I always know, 'cause we are both Pisces, so I'm always looking out for you- Yeah for your birthday as well, so very, very excited.
• 49:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 49:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yes.
• 49:33
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Slippery fish we are.
• 49:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep, doing the work.
• 49:36
  Tracy Cartwright: I was gonna say, sometimes I'm a little guppy and sometimes I'm a piranha.
• 49:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Depends on- Yeah, me
• 49:41
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: t- me too...
• 49:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Tracy Cartwright: what part of the Yeah.
• 49:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, it's been a pleasure, Angwin, to have you, have you join us.
• 49:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And to, I loved, 'cause I always share with my students, as I'm a trainer now, um, about the things that I've learnt from you, the wisdoms that you've shared, and, um, yeah, very grateful that I've had the opportunity, so it's good to have you here.
• 50:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank
• 50:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: you.
• 50:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Most of that I learned from Bert.
• 50:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 50:12
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm.
• 50:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you, Bert.
• 50:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 50:13
  Tracy Cartwright: And thank you for, also for you to have the curiosity to go beyond the nursing, into the art history.
• 50:19
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, like the way that life took you in such a diverse and, and colorful way, right?
• 50:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:27
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And marriage and family therapy.
• 50:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 50:32
  Tracy Cartwright: And have you always been in that beautiful part of the country?
• 50:34
  Tracy Cartwright: 'Cause you're in Sedona.
• 50:36
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: No.
• 50:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 50:36
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 50:37
  Tracy Cartwright: What, what, what took you there?
• 50:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Well, I had a river house, trauma center, in Colorado that I loved, on the St. Vrain River, and, um, Karlheinz Rauscher came unexpectedly.
• 50:53
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I was expecting, uh, Heinz Stark, who's no longer with us, but Heinz couldn't make it and he forgot to, um, tell me, but he sent, uh, Karlheinz, and I didn't know Karlheinz.
• 51:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, um, he showed up out of nowhere and did some workshops.
• 51:13
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But he taught me how to tune into the informational field, and that the field was real.
• 51:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I could do that.
• 51:24
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I'd tune into the river, and the message was clear: get away from water.
• 51:30
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And it was insistent.
• 51:32
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Get... Now, the river was, like, six feet from my front door.
• 51:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 51:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And the only access to the house was over a bridge.
• 51:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I didn't wanna leave that house, ever, but it was, "Get away from water." So I thought, "Well, how far away from water?
• 51:54
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Probably that's the desert." So I did a pendulum, and it was Arizona, where I'd never been, and specifically Sedona.
• 52:06
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So I left.
• 52:09
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I sold the river house.
• 52:10
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I left.
• 52:12
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And late summer- And then I had, I bought a house here, and I got emails from the neighbors with, the screen was just... I said, "What are you sending me?" And that's where your house was.
• 52:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: There was a huge, huge thunderstorm that took the bridge-
• 52:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, my
• 52:36
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: gosh ... the whole lower part of the house.
• 52:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And it had giant trees around it, and they were all gone.
• 52:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Wow.
• 52:44
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Everything was... So what am I looking at?
• 52:46
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I was looking at mud.
• 52:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So the field told me, "Get away from water." And I did- Mm ... to Kevin.
• 52:54
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And I thought, "Well, I've never been to the Southwest." I, it's all new, and no regrets.
• 53:02
  Tracy Cartwright: That's amazing.
• 53:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 53:04
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, and such a, so into the field, the wisdom of the field.
• 53:10
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm try- I'm trying to find the right word, but it's not coming through, so.
• 53:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 53:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and the people that bought the place, were they okay?
• 53:17
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They restored what was left of it.
• 53:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 53:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 53:21
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Uh, further back- Wow, that's
• 53:22
  Tracy Cartwright: amazing...
• 53:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: from the river.
• 53:23
  Tracy Cartwright: And of course, you know, it took a while 'cause they needed another bridge, and so on.
• 53:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, and bridges are not easy to build, right, sometimes?
• 53:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So,
• 53:34
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: so I-
• 53:35
  Tracy Cartwright: But it's great that you listened.
• 53:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: I did.
• 53:38
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And, um, it took me a while to sort out my own inner voice, imagination, and message from the field.
• 53:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Took a while.
• 53:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Mm.
• 53:50
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But, uh, now I feel fairly confident when I get a message like that, that I need to take it seriously.
• 53:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: You know, going full circle, my life partner, turned out he's an emergency physician.
• 54:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, yes.
• 54:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: He's an...
• 54:08
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: So he's been working with trauma all this, all these years, but-
• 54:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow...
• 54:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Dr. Anngwyn St Just: he never other than trauma to the tissues.
• 54:18
  Tracy Cartwright: But it's like, well, you know, now I'm back in relationship with trauma in a different way.
• 54:25
  Tracy Cartwright: So it's- In a different way.
• 54:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah ... it's lovely, actually.
• 54:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 54:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 54:29
  Tracy Cartwright: That's very cool.
• 54:31
  Tracy Cartwright: I was just gonna say, Angwin, that I've, over your shoulder, on the red side, the red-
• 54:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm...
• 54:37
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Tracy Cartwright: red brown, a side profile of an old man.
• 54:42
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Oh, yes.
• 54:43
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: There's lots of that here.
• 54:45
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: They call it pareidolia.
• 54:47
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We have the Sphinx.
• 54:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We have Queen Victoria.
• 54:51
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We have the Dream Speaker.
• 54:55
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We have dragons.
• 54:56
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: We have many faces.
• 54:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 54:59
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, for sure.
• 55:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 55:02
  Tracy Cartwright: I love seeing.
• 55:02
  Tracy Cartwright: I actually woke up this morning, uh, I'd slept with the, with the curtains, uh, wide open last night, and it was still kind of darkish a little bit.
• 55:10
  Tracy Cartwright: The light was coming up.
• 55:12
  Tracy Cartwright: And the tree line- Looks like, uh, it looks like Pinocchio lying down Yeah,
• 55:17
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: yeah.
• 55:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm And I was like, "Ah, there's my one out there this morning." So it's lovely.
• 55:21
  Tracy Cartwright: I love seeing... I see faces in all sorts of things, so.
• 55:25
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Yeah, me too.
• 55:26
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Mm-hmm.
• 55:26
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: And it's amazing pe- not everybody does.
• 55:29
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 55:29
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: But.
• 55:30
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 55:31
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: For here, uh, it's every- all surrounded with sculpture, I would call it.
• 55:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 55:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Nature
• 55:39
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: sculpture.
• 55:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 55:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Sculptured by nature.
• 55:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, thank you so much for your time, um, your wisdom, and yeah, I look forward to sharing this with everyone.
• 55:48
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Thank you.
• 55:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: Thanks.
• 55:49
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: It's been
• 55:50
  Tracy Cartwright: a
• 55:50
  Dr. Anngwyn St Just: pleasure.
• 55:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so much.
• 55:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 55:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 55:59
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright, that's Tracey with no E, .cartwright.
• 56:03
  Tracy Cartwright: And, or head over to my website, traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 56:15
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.