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Migration Accompaniment w/ Susan Krehbiel and Emily Wilkes · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome everybody to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on faith, social justice, and church life.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: And folks, if you have a question, don't be afraid to write in and ask your question to faith podcast pcsa.org, because if it matters to you, it matters to us.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: And it just might be Whatley,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: It just might be a matter of faith.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: And
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, look at that
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: .
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: And yeah, welcome everybody.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: We hope everybody has had a good week and a good weekend and all those things.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: How are you Simon?
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: How are things going?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I'm doing okay, Lee.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: It has been quite cold out here in Idaho the last few days, but you know what?
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: You bundle up, snuggle up, you survive
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: , you got a Snuggie, remember those?
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Ah, I do remember Snugs.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I do not have a Snuggie, but I will say, yeah, the Snuggie is like the, it's not, it's not a onesie, but it's like the thing that you like zip up and you just like, are
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Not even a zipper.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: It's not even a boat.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: You just like hop in it.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: It's like a, it's like a hospital gown, but made out of fleece.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: With long sleeves.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: The back doesn't do anything, but it's very thin flee.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't very effective.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: But I hear it's very cold there.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: It was like negative what?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: It was minus 20 the other day.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Ugh.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to do that, but it's kind of cold here too, in DC And yeah, things are going well, things are, you know, work is very busy.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Just wanna just say that I think everybody is busy at the beginning of this year, but it hasn't been, and like we said last week, it hasn't been the best year and which brings us to our new segment, right?
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: So I think probably most people are aware of this, but we want to, uh, extend obviously prayers to the family of Tyree Nichols, who was killed at the hand, well killed, well beaten, and then died days later due to the beating that he suffered at the hands of Memphis police.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Lee.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: All I gotta all, I, I don't even know what to say other than not again.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't, it's hard, it's hard to find words to say because it's, it's, there aren't any words to, to describe like the ult, like the, the ultimate like terror of what happened.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: And I know videos were, were seen and shown and, and all of that.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: And I do think we have to continue the conversations specifically about our black siblings who are being murdered by police on the reg.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: And I do think having those conversations specifically in a faith context also we should always be pushing for, because from what we've seen about Tyre is he, he was a joyous, creative artist who loved life.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: And that life was literally taken, that light was taken very early.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I think we need to, to do some soul searching as a country as we always do about policing and what that means.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: And also taking into consideration the things that Miles said in our episode last week about how we respond to people and why is it that we always rely on the police to do certain things.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Even, even the conversation about training needs to change because there's only, only so much training you can do for someone to see the humanity in someone else.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Like that is training isn't the conversation that's happening enough, but it's not the only conversation that we should be happening.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I, I heard a lot of commentators recently saying like, the training's been there, like the training is there, but how do you, how do you make people see the humanity in somebody else?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And that's like the soul changing stuff that
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Has to happen.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And of course I, I just realized, you know, one of the sort of common hashtags that is used when events like this happen is say their names and I realize I mispronounced Mr.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Nichol's name.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: It is Tyree, it is not Tyree.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: So my apologies.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: But again, we're not above corrections, right?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: And that also means the system is not above corrections,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: And yeah, so everybody's got work to do in their own context.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Check out how the police are in your own town and discover like what their training practices are and how you talk to your local politicians about changing what that is.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Your mayors, all those things.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, you start where you're at.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: So I hope and pray that that's what we do.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: And prayers for the Nichols family and everybody impacted by it, the whole black community.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Again, once again to be re-traumatized and traumatized again is, are the systems of evil at play.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: So Yeah.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Enough
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: So.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Well, in other news, there is some increased representation in professional in the professional sports scene.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: For folks who may not be aware, the Kansas City Chiefs and the Philadelphia Eagles will be playing in this year's Super Bowl that was determined by, uh, some of the playoff games this past weekend.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: And this will be the first Super Bowl in which the starting quarterbacks for each team are black, which is great.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: And also, why did it take until 2023?
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: And, and it's, it's kind of timely.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is, you know, we have entered Black History Month, it is February, and I always say like, during this month, we should always be uplifting our black siblings.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: But it is interesting to see in a sport, I mean like football, you know, like the ways in which racism and those systems do intersect our sports.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: But that's pretty, that's, that's pretty awesome that, that is happening.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And who's performing at the Super Bowl this
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Time?
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Rihanna.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's, look at there.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to this halftime show.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Lovely.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: And celebrating the fact that Beyonce has set dates for her world tour.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: So everyone get ready for Renaissance cuz it is happening.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And they're co and she's coming to DC she's coming to Louisville, Kentucky, which is big, which is where the Presbyterian center is.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So yeah, all y'all get excited from
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Y Well, speaking of going on tour, I'm not sure if anyone else noticed, but earlier, well earlier today, as in the day that we're recording, Tom Brady announced his retirement.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I wonder if he'll have a farewell tour.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: ding.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Sorry y'all, it was too easy.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Let's, let's, let's hope it's done.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hope it's done.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: But we have a question written in just about Tom Brady and retirement question reads after the news that Tom Brady is officially retiring from the N F L, it got me thinking about pastors and people in the church.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: We have a habit of sticking around even past our prime.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: When do we know when to call it quits and move on?
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: That's,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: That's a deep question actually.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: That's a hard question for a lot of people in the church.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: .
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: And again, Lee is an or an ordained reverend.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I am neither a reverend, I'm not a pastor.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I have not been to seminary.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I've just worked for the denomination and have been in, uh, quite a few churches in my life.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: But something that I will say is that there's the knowing when it's time, and then there's also the sort of decision once you've actually, once you've actually chosen to enter a different part of your life, take up a different career, whatever it is, there's the ways that you sort of go about marking the end of one thing and the transition into something else.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: And that's really hard.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: That's, that's hard to let go.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: And I think that we should hold that as a, a real feeling.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: It's hard to let go.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of scary, especially when it's something that has defined maybe so much of your identity, if not at least your professional career up until this point.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: .
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: But I think that's also why many pastor emeritus when, so when a pastor retires they be, or from a congregation, they become pastor emeritus.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: They often don't stick around in the congregation where they were the pastor because they wanna allow whoever comes in as the new pastoral leadership to sort of be able to start fresh without power dynamics and, you know, issues with the congregation where they might say, oh, well so-and-so did it this way.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: And that person is still sitting there in the pews.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you get a mark.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Does happen, sometimes it doesn't.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Which is, which is also very interesting.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to knowing when it's time to, to move on or make a change, again, I'm a young person, so I don't have a ton of experience with this, but I do think that, you know, it's time when you know it's time.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: There's something that will tell you things around you are changing faster than you can adapt to them.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Or you don't have the energy you once had.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Or maybe people aren't responding the same way because times have changed and that's okay.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: And change is scary.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Change is very scary.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: But don't be afraid of it either.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Anyways, again, I'm not a preacher.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: That's my sermon for the day though.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: What do you, what do you say, Lee?
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I do think it's, and this could also be a generational thing too, which I think people should hear a millennial conversation about this.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Again, we're millennials, we're not Generation Z, which they may have a whole nother issue and conversation about retirement too.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Cause me and Simon were talking before this, I mean, retirement for us is gonna look different than retiring for somebody else.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of things are gonna change.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: What about social security?
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Who knows?
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Things like that.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of unknowns there.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: But I know from my experience in the church, seeing ministers who have maybe stayed longer than what they should have or just any leader in an organization or anywhere that is staying to the point to where that said organization or said church is, has a codependent relationship with the leader.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Which I think is, can be very problematic because I do think there is, like our conversation last week about boundaries and, and what that means and how that, how a minister identifies themself outside of their work.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I am not of the school that being a minister should impact the entirety of my life.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I am not of that.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: And so I within myself have set up boundaries to say, just because I have this title or whatever that might mean to people does not mean that that is the entirety of who I am as a person.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I am not only a minister, I am far more than that.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: And I do a lot outside of that, that role that I, I see myself in or I felt called to do.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I think, I think that is also depending on the person and how they set up boundaries within themselves.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Because I do know that if you put all your eggs in one basket, it's, it's, it's not always good when, you know, if you're a minister in a church and it finally happens that you retire.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And that's the only thing that you have identified yourself as your entire life.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And what that means and what that looks like and, and how you move on from that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: It it, it really does create kind of this like, crisis of identity that I think could be prevented if we also had a theology around retirement or a theology around transitioning into something new or, you know, Jesus always said, brush your feet off and move on.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Like Jesus didn't stay anywhere very long.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Hell, Jesus didn't e I don't think within a week Jesus didn't stay anywhere for, for any long period of time, I don't think.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: And so it's, you know, the institution and all these systems have said that like what, what it means to be a successful.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: And that's a completely different thing as well.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: What we define as success, that longevity or being somewhere for so long is like the height of your career or things like that when we're talking about organizations that like, say they've been here for this amount of years and it's seen as like a, like a hierarchy type thing.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: The amount of years you've been there.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And so I think it, depending on generation, but depending on like how you, how your boundaries are, I think it really depends about retirement and how you're gonna take it.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I don't think somebody should be a be a minister for like 30 some years at the same place.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Especially if it's a codependent relationship to where the calling becomes ego.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Really.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's a a fine line.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I think there's also a question about fulfillment.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: , I'm not totally convinced you need to stay in a position or with a certain organization until, oh, you know what, I'm not fulfilled anymore.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: It's okay to make a change before you get to that point too.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: If you sense that that might be on the horizon, maybe that's a good sign that a change should come soon.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Or in the case of if you're thinking about fulfillment or just like ability to continue doing the job.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: In the case of Tom Brady, if we're sticking to the original question,, in the case of Tom Brady, I think the argument could be made, Heely gave up a lot to play this extra season without getting into too many details.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Again, I don't want to get into sports and celebrities personal lives, but he lost his marriage.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Partially over his decision to continue to play.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: I was that worth it to squeeze out one more year?
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Only he can know that.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: But that's a question, or in the case of if we're sticking with the topic of football players, you have particularly quarterbacks, but other players who are getting lots of concussions.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: The quarterback for the Miami Dolphins, uh, Tua, I can never pronounce his name correctly.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Tua Tuvo, apologies for the pronunciation folks.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: He has gotten gone into the N F L concussion protocol at least three times this season.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Some doctors have advised that he not play another game, but he's coming back.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Is it worth it?
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Is it worth the risk?
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Or it again, this is easy because it's football.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Are you going to lose?
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Are you going to stick out until you literally can't do the job anymore because you physically can't or emotionally can't?
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: And I think that should be true if folks not even in sports or whether it's church, but just in your own profess in our own professional careers.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: It's probably not healthy to stick it out until we literally can't do it anymore.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And there's a and I also think, and some people may say, well, you're being ageist all this thing.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: I think we should reframe even what retirement means.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I don't think it should ever mean you're giving up something.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I think it should mean you're moving on to what's next.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes it, it really does take a, a special person to say, you know, I have done what I can do here.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I think I have left this place in a better place to then move on and do what's next.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I have, I have worked with this group enough to develop tools and skills to move on to what's next.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I cannot do that.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And I am passing along and hoping that this, that someone comes and then, and then continues to work forward.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: I think we just have this weird idea about retirement.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I think we also internalize that too.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Like, oh, we should, it's like we're giving up something and I, I think if we reframe it in some ways it could be very helpful.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: But I do think there is a possessiveness of some things, and I will be the first one to say I can be possessive over stuff.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: But you also have to ask the question, you know, am I being possessive?
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Where is, where is like selfishness and ego coming into all this and kind of being able to go with the spirit a little more than, than what we may expect ourselves to do.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I think it takes a lot to, to have those questions.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And I think we, we should, we should elevate that more to even ask those questions of ourselves.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Cause I think that's pretty noble of some, or I think that's pretty respectful of someone to ask themselves those types of questions when they're in a leadership role and evaluating really what the plan is.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: And that is to move forward and bring about the, the kingdom of God in any way that we can.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: So take that for what you will.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Well folks, why don't you write in and let us know what you think about retirement.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: You can even let us know what you think about Tom Brady.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: If you want to, I'll read those
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Write in at Faith podcast at pc u s a.org.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: And we will welcome this week as our guest.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: We have our friends from the Presbyterian disaster assistance from their accompaniment ministries, which means our siblings who are in the process of immigration or our migrant siblings.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: We have Susan Krak and Emily Wilkes with us this week.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: So we hope you enjoy our conversation about immigration and our migrant siblings and how we can be in solidarity and accompany them in that journey of their life.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Well, joining us on the podcast today are two very special guests that are joining us.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: We have Susan Grable, who is the Associate for Migration Accompaniment Ministries, and Emily Wilkes, the mission specialist for domestic refugee ministries for Presbyterian disaster assistance.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Y'all, welcome to the podcast.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Thank
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: You.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Thanks Lee.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: It's great to be here.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: So we're really grateful to have you both on the podcast today because we've talked a little bit about issues of migration in the past on the podcast, but haven't done sort of a, a broad overview about distinctions between refugees and asylum seekers and in relation to migrate broader migration issues.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: And so we have a question written in today that we're hoping you can help us think through.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: The question reads, what is the distinction between a refugee and asylum seeker?
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Also, is the resettlement process similar or different for refugees compared to those seeking asylum?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: What do y'all have to have to say to that and to help us understand this complex process?
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Thanks, Simon.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: I'll take a shot at answering the first one and then I'm gonna pass it to Emily to talk more about the differences in how people are treated and received.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Um, refugees and asylum seekers are two terms that are really legally defined.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Um, but they're kind of like two sides of the same coin going back to the days of World War ii, um, internationally and in US law we talk about refugees as someone who's outside their country and who's in need of protection from a country other than their own.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: So they've had had to leave their country because their country is either responsible for persecuting them or causing the harm or unable to protect them from that harm.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: And so we have kind of an international agreement that when that happens, another country provides you protection.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: And the legal term for seeking protection is called asylum.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: So a refugee seeks asylum.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: So when you see in the news, um, the term asylum seeker, that's a way of saying that the government has yet to decide whether or not that person's a refugee.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: So that's really the big difference.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And when you think kind of a cycle of people fleeing their first movement out of their country, they're an asylum seeker.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: And then once somebody recognizes them as a refugee, they become a refugee.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: And that means that the government, the country that they've been received in agrees to protect them and to not return them to harm.
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: Another way that's been really helpful for me to think through d the differences between refugees and asylum seekers is depending on where they're located.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: So to be considered a refugee, right, you have to flee from your home country and then into a second country.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: While you're in that second country, you then have to apply for refugee status to be able to resettle in a third country.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: So an example of that might look like someone from Congo crossing into Uganda, living in a refugee camp.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: And while they're in that camp, they then apply for refugee status to then be resettled.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: If they're selected, they'll then travel to a third country like the United States, for example, where they'll then have refugee status.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: And what that means then is they'll have access to government benefits like rent assistance, like food stamps, like social workers who can then help, um, help them apply for social security and help them set up bank accounts and help with enrolling their kids in school and finding work and things like that.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: So there's kind of a system in place once you actually have refugee status, but you have to receive that refugee status prior to actually arriving in the country where you're going to be resettled.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: And this process can take literal decades, right?
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: So it leaves people in limbo in refugee camps for a long, long time of the like 100 million people who are displaced right now, less than 1% of all those refugees will ultimately be resettled in a, in a new country.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: So then asylum seekers on the other hand are applying for asylum in the country where they're seeking to be recognized as refugees.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Kind of like Susan said.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: Um, an example might be someone from Guatemala crossing through to Mexico and then into the United States presenting themselves at the border to a border patrol agent and then asking for asylum there.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: And I wanna be super clear that it is legal to cross borders without the proper documentation.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: Um, and then ask for asylum.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: So all the people you might have been reading about in the news about people who have come from Latin American countries who have been bused or flown all over the country from the border, they're here legally seeking asylum, they're seeking refugee status, but in the meantime they don't have any access to government benefits.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: It might take six months to a year for them to receive work authorization.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: And other than that, they, they won't be able to, um, get food.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: They won't be able to provide for their family pay rent without the support of private, private sponsors, basically because they won't be eligible for government support.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: So asylum seekers are, are really in a very vulnerable position compared to people who have been legally recognized as refugees from another country.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: And it's really hits home here in DC because I mean, if everybody hears on the news, I mean in Texas, I mean buses of asylum seekers are being bused here to DC even at basically the front steps of the vice president's home.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Um, and and a lot of these things are done in political ploys also, things are done in just to kind of make this media statement when it comes to a more conservative way of maybe thinking about, uh, asylum seekers and refugees.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: And so, and also along with that, you hear the rhetoric a lot and you hear the discussions a lot as the work that we're doing specifically in the church and how these things are all connected and, and what that means.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: And so I wonder if y'all could talk about how the church specifically is called to do this work and how we are doing that work.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Cuz I mean, we are on a faith podcast and everything, but also, I mean, migration and immigration and refugees are part of our story as Christians specifically too.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that because we've heard a lot of bad theology around all this that is also within the political discourse.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: And so I wonder how we as the church are getting involved in this and what we're doing too.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Thanks, Lee.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, they, um, throwing a round of all these different words is a way of, of de-legitimizing, right?
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: The people and dehumanizing the people that are crossing borders.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: And you know, I think as people of faith, we don't even have to get caught up all the time in these different legal terms and distinctions.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Um, because really as people of faith, we're called to welcome our neighbors and to treat each other with human dignity as children created by God regardless of their national origin, regardless of their religion, regardless of their race.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: And so that really takes us beyond that concern about what the legal definition of is of any one particular group.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: And really it is the faith community that's been at the front lines forever in this work, um, and continue to be.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Um, Emily and I had a chance to go visit the border both in California and in Texas, um, late last year where most of the shelters and programs along the border are actually faith-based organizations.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: My Catholic, Methodist, Baptist,, uh, you name it, they're all there.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: And I think that's because actually our faith teachings across all of our different faith backgrounds teach about welcoming the stranger and the newcomer.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: Uh, and so you see people who are providing food and shelter and access to legal services.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Um, Emily, maybe you wanna say something about what goes on in the interior with those welcoming groups that you just mentioned, Lee in, in d DC
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: Um, I'll also say, Lee, I also agree that you see a lot of bad theology around surrounding, uh, migration.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: And one of the groups that Susan and I spoke with a while ago talked about the Bible is being written by migrants about migrants for migrants or about pe by people who've been displaced for people of who have been displaced and finding and finding God within that, finding God within the midst of having been displaced, right?
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: And so there are a few different ways that churches have been, um, churches and faith-based groups have been involved in welcoming and, uh, welcoming refugees and asylum seekers and people who have been forcibly displaced.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: It can look like, uh, direct service, um, like being directly involved with asylum seekers or people who have been resettled, helping them find new roots, helping them feel like this is a place where they can helping wherever they've been resettled.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: This can be a place where, uh, they can plant new roots and begin to start over and build new community.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: There's also a movement, we've recently, uh, been declared our, the Presbyterian church, u s a has been declared a sanctuary in accompaniment church.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: And so some of what that means is that we help find the, um, kind of, we walk alongside migrants and asylum seekers.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: We help them discern their next most faithful step in a system that is constantly changing, right?
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: It is a, it's a process of journeying alongside people, people who've been displaced as they struggle for freedom and for dignity.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: Accompaniment then is an invitation for people of faith to show up and work alongside refugees and asylum seekers.
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: Whether that's, um, advocating locally for, um, more just in Humane asylum policies, or whether that's advocating more locally or within their state, right?
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: Or whether that's accompanying people to their social security visits or to ice visits, um, visiting people in detention centers.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: Um, all of these are expressions of accompaniment that people of faith can participate in to welcome and show dignity to asylum seekers and refugees.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So if I'm listening correctly, there's all of these different sort of players or actors that are present in the whole process.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: You have the person who's actually, uh, applying or being resettled.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: You have the governments of the country where they're trying to be resettled.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: You have the faith communities in the place where they're trying to be resettled or are being resettled to help accompany them and provide community or access in those places.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: And I know that there's also the, the UN has a role sometimes in this, um, and not to get us too far into the, the international politics, but where does the un fit in with all of this?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Because I know that we often hear in the news about the United Nations as well.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: So the UN High Commissioner for Refugees is a special agency of the UN who was chartered in order to really hold states accountable, meaning national governments accountable.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Um, and so that's their primary role is actually to encourage and hold accountable the national governments because they're the ones who sign these agreements.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Um, but over the years they've also become very operational.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: So in many of the countries where refugees flee, they will help set up refugee camps.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Um, almost half of the world's refugees end up in camps outside of communities, but they also will then help to coordinate the different procedures.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: So for example, in the case of US resettlement, they will help identify refugees within the larger refugee community and then refer them to the United States to consider for being resettled.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: The US makes all the decisions the US government makes the final decision whether or not someone should be resettled.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: But that's, that's one of their big roles, is really just helping facilitate that process.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: That's helpful, thank you.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: And
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I also wonder about, you know, what are the policies, what are the federal policies and things that people may need to have on there, their radar?
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Maybe some things that I don't know, if some things are coming up that people need to know about or some things that are, that are already out there that we advocate for or we all need to familiarize ourselves with and educate ourselves about.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: So are there any kind of policies out there that, that we can let people know
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: About?
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: Um, so one important policy, uh, is Title 42, which was a covid era policy, uh, from the c d C originally.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: And they, it, it basically restricted migration during the pandemic because the idea was that was one way that the pandemic was spreading from, um, by crossing borders, right?
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: The only problem is it's been applied extremely unevenly, right?
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: People from, um, people immigrating from Europe, for example, have not had, um, have not been stopped in the same way that people trying to cross the southern border have been stopped, right?
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: It's a even, um, Ukrainian, um, refugees who flew into Mexico to then cross the border were allowed to cross, whereas people from Central America and South America have not been allowed to cross.
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: So it is a, it's a policy that has been, Biden administration attempted to strike it down, and then the, uh, courts have stopped it, but now Biden has actually going to be expanded.
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: And so it's a, that is a policy that has been, the new surrounding Title 42 has changed week to week.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: And so it's hard to kind of stay on top of what's, what the new, um, policy surrounding it ha what it, what that looks like.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: But that is one to keep on your radar.
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: If you see anything about Title 42, um, that is a policy that immigrant, uh, advocate group advocacy groups, faith-based groups have been advocating to dismantle for a long time now for the last, um, couple of years.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: And since the pandemic started really, and it's really only, uh, increased in power and increased in scope and reach.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: And that is a policy that I think faith-based groups need to pay, be paying attention to.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: We might can explicitly say, you know, that, that they're, this is a very intersectional topic when we're talking about racism and systems of white supremacy, and that there is a reason why certain people are allowed to do certain things and thus because those systems are, are interacting e uh, within the system of migration and immigration too.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And so I think it's very important that we all know what's out there and what we need to be advocating for.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: And I think it really is important for church folk if that is, if you do go to church or if you're part of a faith community out there and you're listening to this, it, it is something that is very close to our, to our faith and, and what we believe.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus, Jesus himself was a migrant and a refugee at many points in his life.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: And so, um, I I also wonder what you would say to churches or what you would say to faith communities out there who may, you know, may, may think this might be a little too political to talk about or get involved in.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: How, how would you begin that conversation or kind of invite people into that space to, to begin to do this work?
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Because as I said, it is very close to our tradition.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: And so what would you say to, to folk out there who may be skeptical?
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, part of it is to just reconnect with, with our humanity.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: Um, if you actually talk to people about why they, um, feel forced to move and leave their countries, they're all the kinds of things that we would identify with.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: In fact, many of the things that we take for granted, like being able to speak up for our own rights, whether it's for living wages or whether it's for, um, access to medical care or other kinds of things that you might n uh, normally speak up for on your own behalf, those are some of the same reasons that people end up becoming refugees, is just speaking up, uh, and taking, showing leadership for their community.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: That's one of the first things I, I think for people.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: Um, the name calling and dehumanizing of people just doesn't, doesn't help.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: But when you actually stop and look at this mother with her child who's decided that she needs to leave Honduras or whatever country in order to protect the life of her child, we can all identify with that.
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: And I know on, on my end as well, I know that the word illegal can end up being a huge barrier for folks, um, who maybe understand immigration on a very like, kind of peripheral level just by watching the news.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: And this is a topic that is so much more complicated than whether people have arrived in the US legally versus illegally, right?
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: If you, um, I guess I would encourage folks to look up what it means to arrive in the US legally and to be settled in the US legally.
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: And once you see how complicated that is and how the legal pathways for resettlement are changing all the time and change depending on which country you're coming from on where you're applying for asylum on the specific processes that brought you to the US by seeing how disjointed this, the immigration system is, you can see how difficult it is to actually arrive here, quote unquote legally.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: People want to come, uh, people want to come the quote unquote right way, right?
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: But people feel like they don't necessarily have another option but to do whatever it takes to save their family's lives or to save their own lives, or it's, yeah.
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: And it, it ends up being really difficult to even to come here, quote unquote, right way, right?
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: So I think that's, I would encourage faith communities who are hesitant to, um, engage in this work to learn more, um, about the kind of political systems that have actually, uh, kind of forced people to come to the US or feel like they have no other option but to come to the US and then, right, as Susan said, to think about maybe would, would you make the same decision?
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: And whether that maybe would humanize that humanizes the person, the mother with a child in their eyes as well, and to explicitly connect that to our faith tradition, right?
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: So I think that's what I would, that's what I would say,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: And something you both have pointed out is the importance of language and terminology, both legally, but also in terms of just how we describe this process, where people are in the process and our relationship, uh, to it, for lack of a better word, within Presbyterian disaster assistance.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: The ministries that you both are engaged in has actually recently been renamed from refugee Ministries to Migration accompaniment Ministries.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to know if you could talk a little bit about why that particular language was chosen.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Is it to better, uh, capture the work that you do?
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Or is it, and is it also more to capture the call that we have as Christians that we've been, have been talking about throughout this conversation?
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Simon.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Uh, I actually think it's a little bit of both.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Um, migration competent ministries I think captures more broadly that there are a lot of reasons that people feel forced to migrate.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: And refugee definition, it's important for us to, to know that there are legal commitments when we talk about refugees, but there are also people forced to move that don't necessarily fit into that refugee definition that we still care about.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: And one of those areas of growing concern are those that are forced to flee because of climate change.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: And there are some protections for people who have to move, uh, across international boundaries because of disasters.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: But for the most part, those are set aside.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Um, the refugee definition is really more focused on political persecution and the treatment by your government.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: So this just kind of opens up the door a little bit.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: The other thing is, we did wanna highlight using the word accompaniment, that what is our role in all of this?
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: There certainly are migrants and refugees, increasingly within the Presbyterian church members that's sitting in our pews.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: Um, but but as a denomination, as a whole, we see our call to be in solidarity, I think, as Emily said before, to show up, right, to get in the game.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Um, and accompaniment seems to be a broad enough term to really accompany, uh, encompass all the different ways that we might do that.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: And whether it's in hands-on ways, whether it's offering base in our own homes or whether it is being in solidarity in advocating for just policies.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: So those are some of my thoughts.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: Um, a helpful image that I often think of when we think of the work of accompaniment is walking with someone across a river.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: So the person that you're walking with is exhausted and maybe isn't familiar with the river that you're attempting to traverse, but you as the person who's accompanying the person do know the river.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: And so your job then is to point out where the next stepping stones are, right?
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: But what's difficult about the work of accompaniment in today's political landscape as we talked about earlier, is that those stepping stones are constantly changing, right?
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: So legal pathways for people seeking asylum in the US change week to week.
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: So it's confusing for people who do live here, who do know the language or who do know the river, right?
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: So then imagine how difficult it would be for that person, uh, for the person next to you, the person you're accompanying to cross the river, if this was an entirely unfamiliar landscape, right?
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: So the work of accompaniment is both being, with being next to the person, walking alongside the person as they're trying to cross the river tr uh, navigate this US immigration system and pointing out what the next steps look like, but then also questioning why the steps, the stepping stones keep changing and trying to see.
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: And we know that that's human caused, right?
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: So trying to advocate for a more, for a clearer and more, um, accessible pathway to cross the river for people to be able to find safety and begin building a new home.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: And one of the things about that I think important is that so much in our discourse, especially in the media government, we objectify migrants and asylum seekers, right?
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: So they lose their, their identity and their, um, agency.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: And I think by talking about accompaniment and the scenario Emily described crossing that river, we're guiding and we're supporting, but they're the ones choosing where they're going.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: We're not deciding for them the direction.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Um, and so I think that's another thing about, as people of faith, again, thinking again about that human dignity is, you know, we aren't going to take that away and decide for them what's best for them, but we're going to help them to achieve and find that place where they're safe and protected
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And of course, even once they, if they are able to successfully cross that river, there is still a lot of challenges.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: There's culture shock, there's trauma, there's so many things, uh, that they will continue, probably would appreciate assistance with navigating on the other side of the river.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: So it's not like the work is done even after some of the legal paperwork maybe has been processed.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Um, so there's always more work and more accompaniment that can be done.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: And we're so grateful to you both for coming on the podcast today to talk about this with us.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: We're gonna be sure to have some links in the show notes to some of the policies that were mentioned, uh, the P C O S A policies about declaring the denomination as a sanctuary, uh, accompaniment church, as well as some references to some of PDA's work in general that people can check out and reference.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: And once again, Susan and Emily, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Simon.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Lee.
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: Thank you both.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: It's been a joy to be with y'all today.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Fate, a Presi podcast brought to you by Unbound and the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program of the Presbyterian Church usa.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Susan and Emily from Presbyterian Disaster Assistance for being our guest this week.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: And we hope you will subscribe and we hope you leave us a review wherever you get your podcast.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: And if you have any questions for us, send them to fate podcast@peaceusa.org.
• 44:29
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• 44:32
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• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And until next week, we will talk to you again then.