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Jon Kane - Scaling Genuine Partnerships & Alliances · Partnerships Unraveled

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the podcast where we dive deep into the mysteries and the secrets of partnerships and the channel.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Michel.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm head of marketing at Chanext, and I'll be your host for today.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really glad to sit down with uh John Kane, Senior Director for Europe and Meta Channel Sales at ForcePoint today.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: John, how's your week started out so far?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Good, thank you.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as always, busy, which is not a bad thing necessarily.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd be bored if it wasn't busy.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but no, not bad at all.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: We spent the last couple of weeks having our QBRs, internal meetings, and our um sales kickoff and training workshop over in Dubai um at the start of the year, like most of the American company vendors do.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh back in and now willing to try and put it into practice.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Any priorities?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Anything you're gonna start with that really stuck on the SKOs?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a it's a surprise, you'll probably be shocked by this, but uh sales is probably one of the no, I'm joking.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um so more of last year.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um primarily it the training element is quite unique.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's different.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's less about right, more, more, more bang the drum.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was more around right, how can we be armed?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we've we've played around with our corporate messaging a little bit to make sure that we understand, we put it into practice by doing role play and presenting and certifying.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we pass that on to our partners now.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're back.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more of a training exercise more than anything.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: But don't get me wrong, you know, there's got to be hitting the revenue numbers, etc.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a different feel to a normal SCO.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't kind of, you know, more of the same.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was more of the same, but what else are we missing out and how can we enable our partners and make sure our end users understand what our messaging is?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it was good.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I feel quite refreshed.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I love that.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important also that as kind of systems change and the paradigm for cybersecurity in general also changes, that I like seeing that there's more depth in how partners are approached, but also how the end customer is approached.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I love to hear that reflected uh in your SKOs as well.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm sure we'll be able to get into that uh during this conversation.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do that, could you give me a little bit of an introduction on yourself and your background?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I have been in, and I hate doing this because it makes me feel really old.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think about the best part of 30 years working with channel.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I started with an outsourcing company that represented American vendors, very small American vendors, um, with relatively niche products in the kind of 90s, mid-90s.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've worked my way through typically in security.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have only ever worked with channel.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I'd know what to do if it was outside of that.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, all joking aside, it's more um the passionate element of what I like doing is working with channel.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so my career has typically been security, as I mentioned before.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: A number of companies, my only deviation, by the way, um was working for VMware.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um that would have been in the middle, sorry, yeah, 2000, I think it's 2007.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I've been at RSA, McAfee, Trends, um more recently at uh FireEye, and then going into Gigamon, and now at Force Point.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So typically there's been a big slant on the security element of that, but obviously there's been a little bit of mixing over that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other time I was at VMware again when I was at part of Carbon Black and it was acquired by VMware.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So they want to be back again.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, um, it's typically been security.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so my background has usually been working primarily for just with distribution at the early part of my career, uh, and then moving on to looking after the entire channel.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I don't believe you should try and separate too much because you know, if the messaging is passed on to distribution, distribution are passing that message on to partners as well.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: The messaging doesn't necessarily change.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I believe, you know, and that's one of the changes I made here was we don't have distinct distribution managers across the region.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: We have channel managers that are responsible for the entire channel, which is distribution, and our partners.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So again, little potted history.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I lost all my hair um doing this job and working with channel, working for American vendors, usually American vendors.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, little potted history.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: 30 years makes me feel so, so old.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I've been with uh Chanex uh in the channel for about three months now, and I still have all my hair.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm I'm very scared about what's gonna happen next.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: You ever wanted a machine to look into the future?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anymore.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think I think it looks great on you, so uh no issues there.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you spent your entire career in the channel, but what is it then about the channel that kind of refuses to let you go?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: What keeps you energized?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I genuinely, and this sounds so sarcastic, and people that do know me will know I'm generally meanless, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe I think longer term, right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not just a transactional element to me.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm certainly not saying anything against any of my colleagues that are direct or end user sales, but I believe there's a longer term element here.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: If I can get a partner to understand and work with me and understand the benefits of choosing my product over somebody else's, or to understand the benefit of using my product, there's a longer term element to that.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not just thinking quarter to quarter, I'm not thinking deal or opportunity, I'm not thinking one deal reg at a time.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking longer term.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're only going to commit to work with a vendor if they feel as though they can interact closely, they understand and feel as though they can influence a little bit more.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a partnership.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes I've said this, and I don't mean it to be in a condescending way, but to look in the dictionary what partnering really means, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea it's supposed to be a mutually beneficial between the two.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that is really important.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really important that I love the idea of making sure that somebody feels as though we're working together, right?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the idea that my company creates the product, but my partner is then taking that product and able to create a service around that.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what that sell is.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, and a shocker for most vendors out there, we aren't the only vendor on the planet.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are other vendors out there, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how channels typically sell.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So how our product then integrates and is part of their overall solution to send to a customer, I believe that's the better thing.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: We can never be truly agnostic as a vendor.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas a partner can be a lot, lot more agnostic.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: They can be more of a trusted advisor.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that really interesting.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I want to arm the partner to be able to do that.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if my product doesn't fit within their portfolio, no problem.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not gonna crowbar that in and make it work.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that element that it's a longer-term thing.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And people are still that I knew from years ago are still in the industry, still working in channel.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's reputation that suddenly becomes part of that as well.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that carries a lot of weight.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I hear you.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's uh it's a great balance between having those human relationships and being helping your partners make informed decisions.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, indeed, it's not just about the next quarter sale, it's not even about the next year's sale, it's about the broader picture, especially when you're when when you provide a platform that fits into an ecosystem that might be a bit more complicated than than like a commodity sale.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's something beautiful about building these longer-term relationships across companies.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that it's a cliche, like people say, oh, this company is like a family, and it's it's barely ever really true unless you have like a family-run company.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes uh an industry can start to feel like a family.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to have that in the energy sector.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I worked in the energy sector for for around 10 years, and millions of people work in the energy sector, but it still really felt like I got to know a bunch of them, and I still have relationships with many of them to this day.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, this morning I got a text from someone I worked with, I think in 2018, and he said, Hey, can I pick your brain on something just out of the blue?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the type of relationship building and that longer-term focus that that I really, really love.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a blessing and a curse, right?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: For people that are genuinely honest, trustworthy, want the very best, then actually that stands you in really good stead.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: People will knock on your door and want your honest opinion.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it'd be amazing if that dried up, then I'd think to myself, my time is probably done.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: But fingers crossed, that's never happened.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's also very important.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people that I've worked with will ask questions about individuals, about companies, about approaching different ways of going to market.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because and that might be even competitors to a certain extent, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's a very small, incestuous region, and even though I cover the whole of Amir, it's amazing how many people you'll bump into, and you're only one or two people away.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: See, see, Kevin Bacon thinks he's got it with the kind of degrees of separation.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in channel, actually, you're only one or two away, right, from somebody that you know.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, I think that's a blessing.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I'm sure some people have, you know, not necessarily done so well, but I believe that's a good thing, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: There'll always be somebody that will go, oh, I know Johnny Kane, or I know of this particular person.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good thing.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think you hit the nail on the head, right?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And indeed, it also comes with a potential downside that if you screw up somewhere, then the entire channel will know about it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think honestly, you know, if if we're just honest and we're empathetic, uh uh these types of uh environments really kind of help everyone grow.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a mutual lift, right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that's that's really cool to see in the channel space already, how many people know each other.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I later on in this podcast, I'll ask you to nominate someone who can guest on this podcast.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know how often it is that I get like the same person nominated?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Completely different spaces in the channel.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, hey, building up that type of reputation, it's great, right?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's great from a relationship perspective.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: It makes your job easier, but also when it comes to advancing your career, it's uh super valuable.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: But let's say there's someone that's coming into the channel space, what advice would you give them for kind of building a name for themselves?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Building a name that that carries a certain connotation.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, if that's your main aim, then you're probably not not in the right space.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're looking to have a career in channel and you're looking to get the most out of channel, then you've just mentioned a couple of words.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd certainly say trustworthy is one thing, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, back up what you're saying, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: That I think that's the most important part, right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you strongly believe in something, great, make sure everybody understands that.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and the enthusiasm will you know carry on into working with your partners.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't feel 100% sure about something, then again, call that out with partners because they'll soon find out.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you turn around and say this product is foolproof, it's 100%, it's this, it's that, and actually it's not true, it doesn't take long to be found out.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I will certainly say channel usually are one of the first to find out if something doesn't work and something is working correctly.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned earlier about um asking for advice.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes think that's one of those elements is asking channel their advice, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just assume that something's gonna work correctly.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Ask them.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's what a true partner should be.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: They should be able to advise you.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I worked with this vendor once and this didn't work, so perhaps this might be a better way.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're a great advisory element to try and at least help you understand what a program should look like and how to go.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd certainly say the trustworthy element and listening is a really important part of that as well.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: But also learn from it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the beauty of it.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, every day's a school day.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I keep saying to my team, I say to myself, say to my kids, every day is a school day, and even I'm still learning, and I love the idea that I learned something new.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, particularly coming back from our SCO, going into a workshop, I'm learning something, something that I didn't quite realize before.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if I can pass that on, or I learn from channel and they teach me something, that's important.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So to be a sponge, to understand how these different things work.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And because it may work with one vendor, be prepared for the fact that it might not necessarily work with another vendor.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the other part then to that is no two partners are the same.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: No two partners have exactly the same drive, want the same thing, necessarily have the same skill sets.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Some are high, some are lower.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's different.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Be accepting of the fact that not everybody is going to be the same.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's no such thing as cookie cutter.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd certainly say if you're looking to go into a careering channel, think longer term, think of the effect it can have, become a trusted advisor because you want them to become your trusted advisor and to really duly listen to what it is that they want to do because it can make such a difference.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: By making sure you listen, try and do something to try and help that's good for both.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Remember the partnership element, then I think you'll go a long, long way.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I'd certainly say the one big thing is thinking longer term.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think of deal per deal.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Think of making sure that it's going to be a longer-term commitment that you're making to that one.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no, I completely agree.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you mentioned enthusiasm, by the way.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's an underrated, underrated element of relationship building that uh people should maybe emphasize more because I feel like actually forcing yourself to care about the people in front of you is is uh uh kind of a magical tool.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and the thing is, like at the beginning, it might feel um if I if I speak from my own experience, it might be a bit tiring to actually engage with everyone on a on a deeper level, not just listen to listen or listen to talk or whatever, but actually try to figure out how these people tick.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think at the beginning that that can be quite quite tiring, but at the end you'll notice it becomes a part of your being and people resonate with that, right?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: People resonate with actually being listened to.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I have a kind of extreme example of that, of that like deep engagement.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was at a conference in Barcelona, um, I think maybe 2015, 2016, and we had our stand right next to our direct competitor.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, uh, I don't really care much about that.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're all people we're trying to do the same thing, right?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's no backstabby anything going on.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have a beer with you either way.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um but at one moment the plenary sessions were going on, and so we're standing there and there's basically no one around.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: One of the stand the booth uh uh attendees faints.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So my competitor just literally faints right next to me.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I elevated his legs.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I just got something in their drink.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is this is this a revelation now?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to force this relationship exactly.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I go very extreme.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so no, anyway, I elevated his legs, I I checked his breathing, and um and obviously he woke up, he he was okay, he just uh probably was dehydrated or something like that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh later on, years later, he ended up contracting me for a consultancy gig.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: See, long term.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about long term, you see.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I I I understand that that's an extreme example, but at that moment, like nothing really mattered besides, hey, we're we're people, you know, we need to help each other out.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's um an underrated kind of element of relationship building for a lot of younger people who are indeed focusing on the next deal, the next metric, this KPI, that KPI.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're still people at the end of the day.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I like I look back to the enthusiasm, right?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Part is is truly something you believe in, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So let's if you believe in a product is one thing, but you also believe in working with a partner.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't believe in that, then channel is not for you, right?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, if you don't believe in that, you don't believe there is something that could be gained on both sides for doing that.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think enthusiasm can also be people can try and pretend or probably people can try and cover, it'll get found out at some point.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you truly believe in something, then you go for it, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you should be enthusiastic about going to work and doing that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong, not every day is easy, no matter what we're doing.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sometimes difficult to be enthusiastic, but you should truly believe in what it is that you're doing.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: If it's the products, if it's the partners that you're working with, I've always said, I have a strong belief there are three things when you're working in chow that need to happen to be successful in any way, shape, or form.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Number one is let's not forget, we're all there to make money.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Partners need to make money.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it might be the highest margin ever for a partner to receive in a particular product.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if the next part isn't gonna work, which is product, if the product is not a good product, if it makes it look bad, the POC's not working, doesn't matter how great your margin is, it's gonna be very, very difficult for a partner to get behind that.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the product's got to work because it's their reputation, not your reputation.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can move companies, but as a partner, you've got to make sure that that product works.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to make some money, you've got to make sure that the product is trustworthy and works.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: The final part, back to the enthusiasm, is you've got to be able to work with people, have resource to be able to lean on at the part at the vendor on the partner side, and hopefully have a bit of fun doing that, right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that really does rub off.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've said about the enthusiasm, right?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have resource, if you aren't able to lean on a channel manager or somebody that knows channel or understands channel, because again, I've worked with smaller companies that don't have infinite resource.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be one person too many people's jobs, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately you've got to believe that that's your enabler is working with partners to be able to give them that element.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have all of those three, many companies I've seen may have one or two of those things and be so, so high, 100% on both.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't have the people, you don't have a product that you can trust, and you're not able to make any money, you're really going to struggle as a company.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And some vendors that I've worked with in the past have managed to have three of those, never been 100% on all, but they've been successful channel companies because everybody knows you can make money.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're a good bunch to work with.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can ring them up and get somebody to help and support.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, you've got a product that does what it says on the tin, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be all singing, all dancing, but it's a good product.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: So with those three things, you should be enthusiastic, you should be confident to push that.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same token, don't start saying that this product will do things that it can't.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Don't start overachieving, don't start overcommitting.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, that will go too far the other way.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, be trustworthy.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think somebody coming in, remembering those three things, I think is really, really key that you're not going to be the best at everything.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: But clearly, if you're the worst at everything, you've got no chance working in channeling.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to have a combination of those three.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think that's a phenomenal point.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And one, so I have a bit of a pet peeve, and I wonder what you think about this.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So when you talk about uh not overselling your product, I could not agree more, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because then indeed, the triangle that you've just mentioned, the three points, they crumble instantly.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can have the best relationship, you can indeed have deals that uh are worth a lot of money, but the moment that product doesn't work, there's no deal in the future, you know?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very short-term way of thinking.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I do feel is I think about maybe three or four years ago, uh, companies started over-emphasizing the kind of sell what you have methodology in the sense that they almost removed all storytelling from the products they present.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that has gone a little bit too far, where um, if we're only focusing on kind of the the root product, so to speak, then it becomes like a really undifferentiated narrative.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel that as brands, we constantly have to be memorable.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we can be memorable in ways that uh by describing our products in different ways without overselling or talking about features that don't really exist.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just wanted to mention that that it's it really is valuable to have that kind of sales and marketing perspective on product.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I if I mentioned before, you know, we're we're not the only vendor on the planet, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so uh again, a partner doesn't see that way.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: They don't just sell one product.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you might have an amazing product.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's work from that element there.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if it doesn't integrate with other products, okay, already that's gonna make it very difficult for a partner to sell.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now it might do one job.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: What you'd like to do is be able to take advantage of that and to make sure it works with other products.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: The second part is overselling.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: There is one way you're gonna get found out.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point of a POC, right?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point of an eval, that's the whole point of an NFR, for example, is to try and get it to break.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that the partners are looking to see how it's gonna work and to make sure it is gonna break.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: They'd rather break here, back at site, rather than doing it on a customer site, because it's them in particular that are held liable, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think overselling, you are gonna get caught at that point, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Being very, very clear about what it can and can't do, I think is really, really important, right?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So again, making sure that they can understand the links between their products that they're selling, but also on that one product, it might fix every problem possible.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, if it isn't and it doesn't, and it doesn't say what you're gonna do, you're the one as a vendor that's gonna be held liable because you're gonna make that partner look different in front of that.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't disagree at all with the fact that actually overselling, there is a need to kind of say, yeah, yeah, yeah, it'll do that, it'll do that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, there's a reason why many of us go out with SEs is to make sure we don't make that mistake, right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's another important point, is we can tell everybody about how we believe our product is amazing from a commercial point of view.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: But our SEs are huge heroes because they're the ones making sure they're enabling the partners properly and being very honest about the fact that no, it isn't going to be able to do this.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: What it will do, and what it will work with these products here, they're the voices of reason to a certain extent.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: They kind of make us a little bit more realistic about what we do.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really important point is if you're enabling from a commercial point of view, it's making sure technically that you're enabling the partner as well.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, to make so they understand how that product works, because that's bringing you back down to earth with a bit of realism, is to make sure it doesn't do absolutely everything and to make sure we're not making those mistakes.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: So overselling can come back and bite you.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say, you may get a sale on the back of it, but there's nothing worse than a customer that wants to return a product.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, exactly.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because that then that that's the end.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's often the end of that relationship.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I I want to just also emphasize that indeed uh SEs are the unsung, unsung heroes in this space, right?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: They keep us all sane, they tell the real story.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I kind of like the perspective you just gave about uh partners almost also in part being like uh QC slash QA on how a product fits in an ecosystem.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's a pretty unique perspective that I that I haven't heard verbalized before, so so I quite like.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that that does make me think then is you're talking about building relationships, you're talking about having this deep partnership with uh with your surrounded, with your partners, with your MSSPs, et cetera.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, when you're in enterprise-focused markets, that that's it's still not easy, but it might be a bit easier because you have a couple massive partners doing a couple massive deals.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I know many companies in the cybersecurity space are moving towards the mid-market or SMB space.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you maintain that momentum, those relationships, that scale when you suddenly have hundreds of partners or sometimes thousands that you have to deal with?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um which is very apt because here at Fox Month, I've been here six, seven months, I think seven months now.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and this is not the only time we're we're typically, I would certainly say, more of an enterprise product.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, more of an enterprise.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I have to be really careful to say that because people in enterprise and customers in enterprise have the same problems as people in mid-market and have the same problems of people in SMB.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: It could be price prohibitive, or it might be just the direction in which we focus on, right?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I always believe that you know our guys are going to spend most of their time focusing on an enterprise, clearly, right?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly in ForcePoint.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, then you've got all of those partners, and you've mentioned before hundreds.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we have thousands of partners.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've been around for a long, long, long time in different guises, obviously, through the web center stays are coming into force point, but we have thousands of partners.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to keep them enabled to understand what it is that we're doing, you know, it cannot be done on email alone, right?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that was chipped into a rock somewhere in Greece in Greek times.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, that is really important to make sure somebody's actually verbalizing that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there's only so far we can go back to scale, right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We want to be able to scale, but even we have got to be able to scale that message.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So Disty plays a very important part here, is the guidance and the element of they are looking and supporting our growth partners.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so we have our focus partners that we spend the majority of our time in, but we have a huge amount of business that comes from our growth partners.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I see that as purely incremental, right?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's business that we might not necessarily have seen.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: How can you say that's any less important?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because it may be the enterprise deals that we're focused on, which may be a smaller number because it's the larger deals.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, we're not necessarily working that closely with those partners.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're working with distribution to do that, to hit that scale.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's always seen as incremental, and that's no less important to make sure that we've got that scale.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, here at ForcePoint, the most important, and I've done this in other companies before, is to make sure that the Disties have the tools to be able to make sure those partners understand what it is that they do.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And going in there saying, let me enable you on ForcePoint and let me take up an hour or two of your time.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the guys there are going, Really?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: But what's the benefit to me?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: So a different approach then is, again, from distribution.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, I know you sell these number of products.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: You sell SIM, you sell EDR, you sell a number of different security cases.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've considered the fact that actually, with ForcePoint, for example, you might want to consider better usage of your data, better classification of your data.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: It will actually improve your posture at your end user by using a data product like ForcePoint, for example.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So go in a different angle.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just suddenly try and pitch force point because they happen to be a partner.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why should they bother?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why would it make a difference?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Will it make their end user more efficient, more secure?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Will it make them more money?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Will they save costs?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: So going in at that angle is really, really important.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Disty have a slightly different role to play there, whereas their scale, but also we should be arming them as our when we're not in the room.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way I look at that, right?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are Disty able to sell us?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very happy then to move with alliances, so where other vendors are being sold, and how we, alongside two or three other vendors, that's an easier message to give out, is to say with this, with this, and with this, you are going to be more secure, you're going to save money.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, you've already got one or two of those vendors already on site.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's an end user.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that is one way that we we want distribution to help us.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we don't have lots and lots of distributors across regions.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's for that reason we've got to manage them and work with them.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: You don't just expect them to transact and quote.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot more that distribution can and should do with the right plan in place.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes a lot of sense.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I think in my previous experience, the challenge with alliances was that sometimes it lacked um a sense of urgency and things didn't really seem to get off the ground.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I ran into that a lot working with large consultancy firms like uh uh Accenture and CGI, where it's like the the effort I had to take with my team to present um this proposition to them just sometimes fell on deaf ears because sometimes you just need to be able to sell like a billion in services around it, and that just what didn't match our proposition.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But you um we we talked in the prep call as well about that you invest in these kind of better together stories that actually mean something.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Can you maybe share an example of of an alliance that paid off?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so I I I think there's a distinct difference between a technology uh integration and an alliance, right?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're two different things, right?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Many companies have technology integrations.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we've got some huge companies on the planet that have multiple, I mean hundreds upon hundreds of these technical integrations.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the same thing as an alliance.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: I believe an alliance is where your sales team understands, and your technical team, for example, and I'll tell a story that I always loved in one of my previous companies, but an alliance is where they understand that actually this other product can make their product that much better.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: It means that if they're gonna go in there and say, I can see you've got a bit of a problem, our product will help you to a certain extent.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, there's another product here that will make our product even more efficient.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really important point.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's an alliance where there's an understanding on both sides.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when we do an alliance in any company, you don't try and get the alliance ready for the end user.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: You think about how the partner is gonna understand that.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if the partner's not gonna understand that from the two sales teams, the two SE teams, what's the point?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely believe you're not ready for that yet, right?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be an understanding that there is a benefit between the two.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll use a great example, and it's a great story that was made into a case study, a previous company.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this is uh I'm not gonna go into too much detail, but it's there, right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a great little story, and this is 100% true.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, this is an alliance, my previous role between us and another vendor.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this other vendor knows that our product was going to help them to a certain extent with the amount of traffic that was coming in and would support and benefit their product.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But they were doing a POC at a customer site.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's where the alliance comes in.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: The SE was doing a POC at this site and it was being completely overwhelmed.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean overwhelmed, thousands upon thousands of alerts, completely overwhelmed.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it meant that their POC was probably going to fail.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Probably going to fail.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: The SE picks up the phone and spoke to his SE equivalent at my company that I was working at, a really genuinely lovely guy, picks up the phone and says, I've got a bit of a problem.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure your product will make my product that much better.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have an appliance in your car you could quickly run down?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this is 100% true.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: He put the appliance in his car, drove down to this customer site, plugged it in, and immediately those reserves completely reduced down, right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So now the POC was a successful POC, and the guys then looking going, so what does this product do?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, we're able to then not we, the colloquial we, the SE, back to the people that we said, the unsung heroes, basically said, Well, this product will do this, but you can see what it's helping on this product, it will also enable you here, there, and everywhere.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that became a sale.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't the world's largest sale, but the story then became a case study, a public case study, which I always loved, the idea that this was a phone call because he knew his counterpart, he knew it would help.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a proper alliance, right?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is the understanding that actually I'm not gonna be selling your product, but you are gonna help my product be that much more efficient.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that partners are meeting those two in the middle, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: If they can understand that it's gonna benefit on both sides, whether they pick up the phone and speak to somebody to bring down an appliance in the back of their car, great.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, it's that understanding of how they can benefit each other and if it's gonna help.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that almost encapsulates all the points you made previously in this conversation, right?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's about thinking long term, it's about building these real relationships, but it's also about kind of being humble in the space that you're in where you don't have all the solutions and your competitor might.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: How do you build that into something greater?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like one plus one is three.
• 30:37
  unknown: Correct.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I love this story.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if that SE didn't understand, didn't know who it was, didn't happen to know who is equivalent at the sort of person he was, that he would go, oh, you know what I'll put it in the back of the car.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love the idea that again, let's bear in mind, a vendor does not sell somebody else's product, right?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about that.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's about making sure that POC didn't fail and the customer was getting what they wanted, right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it does take more back to the better together story, right?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: The element of the fact that it's not being sold in isolation.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And better together to me is a pure channel play.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely, talking about enthusiasm, I genuinely believe that, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're not the only vendor on the planet.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I knew that actually even my competitors probably might have a better product there and might be in a different element, so be it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now that doesn't happen very often as you can imagine, but I think the integrations do make a massive amount of difference.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if you make it easier for the partner to be able to understand and digest, they're gonna be able to take that message out and make the best of what they've already got.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you're taking a false point product out to an existing customer.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you know the integrations that we already work with out of the box at that customer site, well, you know you're gonna get better utilization out of those products, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's half the battle done.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So especially when you're saying and going in there with a new product, rip and replace is not a great strategy.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's kind of saying to that customer, you made a very bad decision.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to call somebody's baby ugly.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be very, very clear, right?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Make the most of what you've already got because there might be a reason why they've already got that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So better utilization of existing products.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: By buying another product here, they've got to be able to pay for that in some way.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So is it gonna be more secure?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is it gonna save them money?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the integrations are really, really important.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we as vendors just think of our product and don't think the wider stream.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's why alliances are really, really key.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And again, technology, technical integrations is one thing, alliances are a different thing entirely.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing my counterparts at those other alliances, knowing the sales guys, making sure they're talking to each other is really important.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's that ecosystem thinking that is becoming more and more prevalent as we have more and more tools that speak to each other.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we need to um keep up with this trend.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed, we're we're no longer uh door-to-door salesmen, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it really is about that longer-term perspective, that relationship, the enthusiasm, and the humility.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I love that.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, speaking about ecosystem, we always ask our guests to invite the next guest on this podcast.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me, John, who should we have next?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a couple, I think.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they one of them might not be so happy, but I've got a couple.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So there is um one guy that I've worked with very, very early on in my career, and he's been always amazing for advice.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or again, you talked earlier about picking up the phone and speaking about different things, and that's a guy called Miles Ripon.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Miles has been around um in typically in security and worked with vendors, and he's had huge, huge roles.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Miles is a very interesting character, right?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I love Miles dearly.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I also think he's a great advocate of channel.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's worked in channel for donkeys years, so I think Miles would be one.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: There is another one that I would also recommend as well, and that's a guy called Luca Brandi.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, Luca, I say that my best Italian effort, but I can't I can't speak Italian, but he will say it very much like that, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But Luca Brandi works at a company called Trellix.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Trellix was what was fire eye, etc.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Luca is a great example of somebody that's enthusiastic, people know Luca.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Even now, last week, somebody when I was at our kickoff, somebody mentioned, oh, and by the way, Luca says hi.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Again, back to this two sales of it separation.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody will know somebody.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think Luca Brandi will be a great element there.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And again, not just your typical middle-aged white guy over here in the UK looking after an AMIA role.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Luca, based over in Italy, is then representing and looking from a different region to give a different perspective.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think Miles, with the experience and what he's done and the companies he worked at, I think Luca is also the most enthusiastic, very exciting.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: His team love working with him.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think he'd be another great example.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll definitely reach out to uh to both of them.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've got to say, one cool thing about the channel is I noticed that there's such a diverse type of people, like there's a huge amount of ethnic diversity, uh gender diversity, and like there's so many different types of uh personalities as well.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so great to see.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like exactly what you're saying, like an old boy.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is awful.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is terrible because it's just oh, what a surprise.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be a guy based just outside of London.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be it is boring.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be brutally honest, right?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I like the idea.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I really like here at Force Point is our VP of EMIA is based over in Dubai.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, a flip of what you typically have, and I think that's a really positive thing, right?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not automatically thinking of Europe, thinking of the UK.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: If it works in the UK, it must work across the whole of EMIA.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Having a very different perspective puts a different slant on the company, the way that we act and the way that we think.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really important point is to have people from different backgrounds to be able to at least give different perspectives because one size doesn't fit all, right?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really key.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we don't learn by just hearing the same thing again and again, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um amazing.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: So to wrap this up, do you have any final insights, tips, or tricks, anything that you'd like to share with the audience?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to mean I I I've I've loved my time in channel, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds like I'm giving a speech that I'm about to retire.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean it quite like that, but I've managed to learn, I've managed to meet people that are friends for life, that I've known.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a mate texted me the other day, you're going to be around next week.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with him 20 years ago, right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, always in channel.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I've enjoyed it because I like a the vast majority of the people that I work with.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'll always put that caveat in, but the vast majority of people that I've worked with, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I like to think that most people have enjoyed working with me most of the time, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we have to play a little bit harder, but I like it for that, right?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Your reputation is the one thing that you carry with you no matter where you go, right?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, somebody will turn around and say, you're a good guy, you like to try and work with them, you will at least listen, you'll try and fix it if you possibly can.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I always think, you know, you live by the sword, you die by the sword, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you should be honest, you should be that, because that's what we'll come back to you later on, right?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you try and go, like we say, over selling, overcommitting, you try and pull the fast one, as we say over here, just to try and make sure you get a deal in, it'll be remembered.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing how many things, the bad things with certain people, will be remembered just for one thing in particular, and that will haunt people for quite a long time because it is a very small industry.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: People will know each other.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's to just, I like to treat people how I like to be treated, right?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a very, very big trait within channel.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, they're there to make money, they're there to have fun if they possibly can, and they're there to find out a little bit more about how they work and if that's new product, new innovations, then great, so be it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you think like that and you act like that and think that that's how partners work as well, you're gonna have a decent enough career.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a perfect, perfect, perfect anecdote to close on.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, taking the time to speak with me.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, for you, dear listeners, thanks for tuning in and see you in the next episode.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, John.