Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Newborn baby girl, umbilical cord still attached, dies alone in metal trash drum sucking her thumb for comfort. WHO LEFT HER HER TO DIE?

Transcript

Newborn baby girl, umbilical cord still attached, dies alone in metal trash drum sucking her thumb for comfort. WHO LEFT HER HER TO DIE? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. She thought the baby she
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: was dead, so she throws the baby away into the dumpster.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Right now at deen o'clock, a teenage mother is facing
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: charges after her newborn son is found in a dumpster
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: and later dies. A young mother who abandoned her infant
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: inside a dumpster is formally charged with attempted murder. Late
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: New Year's Eve night, police say a teenager placed her
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: newborn son in a dumpster. Employees at a grocery storem
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: at a shocking discovery when the body of a newborn
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: baby girl had to be only a couple of days old,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: was found in the bathroom in the ladies bathroom, in
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: a trash can. She allegedly gave birth and then threw
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: her newborn baby away like trash. You know, it's a
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: story as old as time, and I will never understand it.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Those are just smidgets samplings of the hundreds of cases
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: I have prosecuted, investigated, or covered where helpless babies were
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: thrown away like trash. I don't know if you guys remember,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: were two college students, you know, white bread, wealthy suburban
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: families not only give birth the boy and the young
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: lady the man and the woman. College students give birth
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: in an hotel room and bludgeon the baby dead. The
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: baby you blocky, bludgeon a baby and then throw it
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: into the trash dump the college killers. I mean, it's just.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: But right now, I want to tell you about another story,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: an unsolved story about a tiny baby girl, baby Doe.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: The hunt for her killer goes on. I Nancy Grace,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: We have a panel like no other today with me.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Major Wendell Rayburn out of the Iberia Parish Sheriff's Office.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Major Rayburn, thank you for being with us. Cheryl LaPoint,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: genetic genealogist and founder of Our Roots DNA Kathleen TERRYO
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: comprehensive victim interventions specialist from the Louisiana sixty Judicial District
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Attorney's Office. Dave Matt Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Field Guide, Expert in forensics at Jacksonville State University, author
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: and judge and trial lawyer at Ashley Wilcott dot Com,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, Dave matt with all of the advancements in DNA,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: if they can solve the Golden State killer, for Pete's sake,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: why don't I know who Babydoe is? Nancy. This dates
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: back to January twenty fourth of nineteen ninety four, and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: in the years since then, there's been a massive investigation
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: and there is some evidence. However, some of that evidence
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: could not be located, and so wa woa, wait, wait wait,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I mean you can't locate evidence? Okay, hold on, you know,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: before I go off on a rent to Major Windel
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Rayborn with the Iberia Paris this is the Iberia Parish
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Sheriff's office, Major Major Rayborn, before I go crazy on
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: can't find evidence. I will never forget. I had been
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: in the DA's office in inner City Atlanta maybe four
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: or five years, and I had advanced to specializing in
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: spree and serial homicide, serial rape, serial child molestation in
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Arson and I got called down to the elected DA's office,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: long ast serving DA in the country at the time.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I think it was thirty seven years Lewis Layton. He went, Nancy, Yes, Sir,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I just knew I had done something wrong, Major Rapeur,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And I was just waiting. He went, I got a case,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: and what would you look at? He was talking to
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: me from behind his newspaper, and I just assumed that
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: meant something about me, and not in a good way.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: But I just stood there and he handed me he pointed.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: He pointed to a case file on his desk. I
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: picked up. I went, yes, sir, Major, the case happened
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: before I was in law school. It had been a conviction,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: went all the way up to the eleventh Circuit Court
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: of Appeals, and you know how they are living in
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: their ivory tower, kicked it back down and I got
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: to retry a case I knew nothing about. And not
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: only that, all the evidence I could find, Major was
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: a an X ray and a baseball cap that said
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: kiss my bass. Because over the years it was nobody's fault.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: The evidence room had moved a couple of times to
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: bigger evidence rooms. Everybody thought the case was over and
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: done with. Who cares about the evidence, It was all gone. However,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: in this case, you know, the case was never sold.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Where's the evidence, Major ray Bourne, I'm on your side,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: please understand that, But where's the evidence? Oh that's a
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: good question. That was originally not our case. You know,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: the case belonged to Generate pd in two Wait a minute, Major, Major,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: You're brilliant because I love it when the first thing
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I can say is well, it's not my case, all right,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: this was somebody else's case that screwed this up. Okay,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: now whose was it to start with? Major? It was
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: originally Generates case, and they handled it from beginning to end.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: It was a very highly publicized case. As you can imagine,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: infant left in a trash can to die at a
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: local car wash. Oh, you just gave me chills all
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: over my arms. A newborn. Hey, before I figure out
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: who messed it up to start with, tell me about
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: finding the baby. What do you know about when they
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: found baby Jane Doe? Well, it really tore that little community. Partner.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: We're talking small country town at the time. Major income
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: from there was the right It was the sugar mill,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: which has since gone away, but it was It was
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: not a big city. It's a small town. You know,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: one main street, you know, the one light, you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: the one horse type country town you can imagine. But
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: the local car wash owner was going to you know,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: dump the trash and then a fifty five gallon drum
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: he found an infant that had been placed there the
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: night before. The chief of police at that time, he
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: took it. He took the case, and you know, he's
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: talking about a police department of three or four guys,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: but he took it and decided, you know, he was
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: going to put everything he could into it to try
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: to solve that and find out who did this to
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: this instance. Twenty five years later, you know, it comes
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: to us and we're trying to regenerate the case and
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: put it back together, and we're going back to a
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: department that had only a couple of people at the
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: time and was in a lot of racial turmoil because
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: the previous chief had involved in a shooting and had
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: been removed from officing. You had an interim chief employee,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Dave Matt. What's it all about? You know, as I
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: was saying, Nancy, when they first reopened the case, this
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: box of evidence was missing. But now, after weeks of
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: searching for it, they've recovered the box of evidence and
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: now all of that will be tested. Well, let me
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: ask you a question, major, what about DNA? DNA? It
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: was Baby Steps in ninety four. It was just really
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: getting on. Major. You're giving me a memory. I remember
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: the first This is a funny, odd story. I remember
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I must have been in the eighth grade and we
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: had a science book and I remember reading it class.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: It was the homework assignment, and I had a little
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: bit of time left. I was reading my homework assignment
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: in class, and I was flying through it so I
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: could leave that book, that big science book at school,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: not drag it home. And I stopped because I saw
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: a word, and I remember this thought, Major. I thought,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: you know, one day, I'm going to need to know
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: how to say this. And I sat there and sounded
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: it out and wrote it out fanetically, deoxyribononucleic acid. And
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I remember the whole way home, I said in my head,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: deoxyribonucleic acid, because one day I'm going to need how
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: to just say that, and even need to know how
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: to say it right off the tip of my tongue.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And lo and behold I did the first time I
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: had a DNA case, I had been prosecuting for years,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: just like you said, that was in its infancy, and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I told the lab Joe Scott, you're gonna love this
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: to bring over all the evidence to show to the jury. Well,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: when they wrote put it up on a poster, it
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: looked like poe. It looked like film from a camera
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: that did not come out correctly. It was just a
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: bunch of dots. Immediately ran up as to take that
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: down right now because the jury was looking at it
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and thinking, you want me to believe that. I never
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: put that up in front of a jury again. But
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: it's very complicated, or it was at the time. So
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: let me understand major. First of all, what was the
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: cause of death on the baby? The baby with the
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: actual cause of death was she froze to death? She
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: just she was exposed. And we don't really get freezing
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: weather down here often as you can imagine the Deep South.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: But that night, it was in the forties. This infant
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: was laying in a metal trash can and it just
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: literally sucked a life right out of her. You know too,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Field Guide. So it didn't get below freezing. But doctor dupre,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: how does that kill an infant? Just the elements? Well, Nancy,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the infant will start to dehydrate basically, and the body
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: will just gradually begin to shut down, and it continues
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: to do so until it goes beyond a repair and
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: they will just become unconscious and eventually pass away, you know,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: to Cataline theoryote comprehensive victim intervention specialist Cataline. What breaks
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: my heart? The little baby, little baby Jane Doe in
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: that fifty five gallon drum was found dead, sucking her
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: thumb for comfort. Poor lord thing. I just can hardly
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: even say it out loud. Catalina have twins and they
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: were born extremely premature. Lucy was only two pounds, John
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: David was five pounds, and I devoted myself to making
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: them live, survive. They were in bad shape, Cataline, And
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about this little girl out there in
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that fifty five gallon drum in the coal, sucking her
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: little thumb for comfort. It breaks your heart, it really does.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Kataline, Well, and I can say
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: back when it happened, I was employed in Generate because
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: they had a through the loom mill back then, and
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: it was mostly all women that worked at through the Loom,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: And I mean that was the talk of the community because,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: as I said, Generate, it's a small community and It
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: brought the community together because it was like they were
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: the only ones they cared about this baby. No one
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: else did. Until today. If you talk to anyone on
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: the streets of Generate, they will remember that baby crime
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, a tiny baby girl, baby dough.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: The hunt for her killer goes on Major Rayburn. Seems
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: to me that it was a local person that nobody
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: knew she was pregnant, because you're not. I don't know
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: how close Generette is to a big freeway, but who's
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: going to come into Generette. Believe me, I came from
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: bib County. That's not even in a city. For Pete's sake.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Our big night was to drive thirty minutes to a
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: dairy queen, you know, so there you go. It seems
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: to me this would be a woman that maybe worked
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: at that meal or was too young to work and
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: could get by without being noticeably pregnant. So who would
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: that be? Who would give birth at home and nobody
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: would know, Someone that did not want to be found out,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: someone with a motive for not wanting to be known
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: as pregnant, and then not have the impulse to kill
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the baby. That tells me it was definitely a woman
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: because the man would have probably asphyxiated or smothered it.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Somebody put it in that drum and leave it. What
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: about that, Major, Well, the theory at first was a
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: local girl or a local woman who was unexpected pregnancy
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: hiding it from the parents. I know, a lot of
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: tips came in, a lot of calls came in. I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: was run the crime stoppers off of the time, and
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: we got a lot of calls who passed everything else.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: But unfortunately for the chief of police back then, nothing
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: ever worked out for them. They just never could find
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: that one person. And there had to be an accomplice,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: because I don't think somebody that has just delivered an
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: infant is going to be to drive, you know, walk
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: in places, if in a trash can. Uh, there's more
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: than one person out there. We'll hold on there a minute. Major,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: There's one woman I know of that gave birth at
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: her prom and then went back out on the dance
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: floor and asked for unforgiven by Metallica to be play.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: It can't happen, you know. Well, well else if anything
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: was found with the baby, I believe there was like
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: a women's under garment like a girdle. You know, obviously
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: she's been trying to wear it to I think they
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: theorize that's what you did. You used to try to
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: hide your pregnancy, which to me, you know, I'm thinking
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: it might have been a larger woman. Well, this is
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: news to me, Ashley Willcott spank. So I want to
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: hear about this. There's a girdle strong enough to hold
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: in a pregnancy. That would be a strong girdle. Ashley
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: helped me out while I was filming. I've been filming
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Oxygens in Justice with Nancy Gray. It's really hard to
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: go slog through creek beds and up and down the
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: size of mountains in a pair of boots and a girdle.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you that much less hold in a pregnancy.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: But I think he's probably right, you know, So first
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: let's hear it about girdles. I know a man had
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: to make those things up torture chambers. Same guy that
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: made up pantyhose, I guarantee you. But what about this, Ashley.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Shouldn't there be DNA on that girdle? Well, that's an
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: important piece of evidence, Nancy, because if they test it, yes,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: there should be DNA on that girdle. I just have
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: to go backwards a minute and say something that always
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: continues to surprise me. You know, I'm on the bench
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: in juvenile court. I'd see a lot of cases all
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the time involving children, pregnancies, new babies. What shocks me, Nancy,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: is a number of young women and older women who
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: no one knows is pregnant, who have hidden it, nobody
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: realizes it, and then they have a baby, be it
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: in a car, or at home, or at a friend's house,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: or in a bathtub. It's amazing to me that that happened.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: But you know what, You're right, key question. Major Rayburn
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: with me. Major Wendell Rayburn from Iberia Parish in Louisiana.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Kathleen Terry Ote Victim interventions specialist Cheryl Lapointe, genetic genealogist,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupre. Joe Scott Morgan asked you Wolcott and
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack, Jackie Howard here in the studio, Where is
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the body, Major, that's the big question. Where is the body?
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Please do not tell me it's been cremated. No. She
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: had a funeral that was put on by the community.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: There was about two thousand people of hers at her funeral,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: and she is buried in the local cemetery in Jenerat.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Why don't we exhume the body for Pete's sake, Doctor
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree. I know it's been many years, but you
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: can get DNA from a body, right, yes, absolutely, especially
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: we can get monta conto DNA that lasts for many, many,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: many years. Well, Major Rayburn, what do I need to
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: What petition do I need to sign? What judge do
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I need to suck up to to get this exhumed?
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: That would be in Kathleen Terrio's ballpark. Kathleen, help me out.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: That is my and I am getting that done. I
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: have the order all drawn up, but I work in
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: one parish, but I'm doing a murder trial in another parish.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: But the judge will sign the uder most definitely because
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: also typically the only one that could oppose it is
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: the next of ken, And since we don't have the
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: next of Ken, I just dealt with that. In a
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: murder case Oude of Manhattan, where a woman's body is
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: found by her little girl by the way, dead in
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: a bathtub. Um, all right, here comes the big gun. Sorry, Major,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to pump him up a little bit.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: We know you and Kathleen and Shia are the big guns.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, help me out. You've got the girdle.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that fifty five gallons drun is long gone.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: But Joe Scott, you are the professor of forensics. You
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: wrote the book Blood Beneath My Feet. You gotta have
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: some good ideas well. I think that the girdle obviously
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: is going to be tied back to Mama more than likely.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: The question is how well has this girdle been preserved
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: over all these years a matter of fact, is it
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: still in existence? Like you, Nancy, I've been a lot
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: of evidence rooms over the course of my career, and
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: sometimes these evidence rooms are a complete train wreck, either
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: through you know, changes in administration, movement, and one of
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: the biggest things is from a procedural standpoint, because they
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: can't maintain continuity of evidence. You get too many hands
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: on the situation. Now, the other thing is this, when
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: this little angel was autopsied, what they would have generated
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: is called a blood card, which is where you take
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: a droplet of blood and you place it onto a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: card that is preserved in perpetuity hopefully Crime Stories with
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace to Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: mac joining me. Dave Matt, what can you tell me
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: about some sort of a receipt being found in the drum? Nancy?
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: One of the things that came up during our investigation
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: was what was with the baby. Of course we've talked
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: about the girdle, but apparently the chief, the guy working
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the case back then, Carrie Davis, said that they also
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: found a receipt for the girdle, and the receipt was
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: from a local store. Well, that could crack the whole
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: thing wide open. I mean, if it's a local store,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: surely in a small town like that, they would have
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: a recollection of who bought it, or may have a
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: recollection that person may be long gone by now, Major Rayburn,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: was the baby dressed or wrapped in a blanket? Not
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: the thing? I think was just h bear skin was
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: against the bag. I think it was partially covered with
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: bear skin against the barrel. I think it was partially
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: covered with a plastic bag. Now that sounds like a
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: man putting the baby in there, because I think a
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: woman would have probably wrapped it in a blanket. Every time,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: just as this is anecdotal. This is not a statistical observation,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott judge and trial lawyer. But Ashley, every single
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: time I have seen a female disposed of a body,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: a baby's body, it has on an outfit, or it's
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: wrapped in a blanket or something like that. I mean,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: it's ironic that you can kill a baby or leave
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: a baby to die, but you want to have it
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: wrapped in a blanket. Yeah, it's that maternal instinct, especially
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: if it's their own baby. They want to kind of
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: cut away, comforted in spite of the fact they then
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: leave it to die. That is anecdotal. So Major Rayburne
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: telling me the baby was not wrapped up? Is that?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Is that correct? Cataline? From what I was told and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: bread that the baby was wrapped had a little bit
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: of old newspaper on top of the baby, like it
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: was trying to, you know, trying to hide the baby. Interesting. Now,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: genetic genealogist founder of Our Roots DNA, Shara La point
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: with us, Shara, I've tried to give you all the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: facts I can on a silver platter. Now what do
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: you make of it? Shara? What if anything can be done?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: The inscription on Baby Jane Doo's tomb says only God
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and her mother knew her name. It's my goal to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: be able to identify who Baby Jane's parents are, to
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: bring closure to this poor baby and to a community
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: who was brought together by this unfortunate death. And the
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: genetic genial alogy can do this. Explain how it will work.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Because Cataline Terryote is bound and determined, she will get
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a judge assign the order of exhimation, which means digging
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: the baby's body up. It's very very rare. You see
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: it all the time on TV. That's not the way
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: it goes down, Joseph Scott Morgan, It's very very rare
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: to get an exhimmation. Would you agree with that? Boy?
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: You're not kidding, Nancy. I've been involved in a number
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: working for you know, the Corner's Office down in New
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Orleans and then working in Atlanta with the MME over
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: all the years. I've been involved in a lot of
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: exhimations over that period of time. But to get to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: the point where you have to jump through all of
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the legal ease and the legal hurdles and you know,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: pass it by judges. They want justifications for it. To
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: disinter a body is a major undertaking. So if you
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: can get that done, it's almost a miracle. I've got
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: it done before. But who's is that, Cataline? Kataline, I
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: got it done before. I had a body zoom before.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I bet you have. Oh, I want to meet you
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: in the flesh. Okay, now, Cataline, just tell me in
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: a nutshell, how did you get a body zoomed before?
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I just recently had to do a ton of research
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: on exhimation, and the reasoning behind it is there's a
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: real eluctance to dig up a body because once the
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: body is interred, that body is no longer does it
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: belong to the family. It belongs to the state, and
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: the state puts a priority, a premium on the sanctity
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: of the burial and the body. They're really representing the
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: dead person. So you got to jump through a lot
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of hurdles to get an exhimation. But Cataline, I just
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: got to hear this, what body? How did you get
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: a body zoomed in? Why? Well, we had a little
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: girl that was hit on I ten in Henderson, Louisiana,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: back in the eighties and her body it was a
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Jane Doe and no one had ever identified her. So
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: one of my friends a lot of support group for
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: victims of crime, because my only child was murdered in
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: the ninety four also, so and her daughter was buried
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: by this Jane Doe, and she kept telling me that,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: and so we've kind of decided that we were going
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: to try to identify her. So I went to the
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Facist laboratory at LSU, and I have met with Mary
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Mannhind and she says, if y'all can get the body, zoom,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I'll come down and get the body. So I went
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: back to the District Attorney's office. We wrote up the order,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: he signed it, got a judge to sign it, We
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: got a funeral home to come, and I was there
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: when they did the grave. They opened her casket and
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: they took her little body and Mary took her to
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: the Facist laboratory and back rooms all the way. What
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: did you find out? Unfortunately she couldn't be identified. Well,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: it's not for lack of shrine. No, we did try.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I'm glad to know you have that experience under your belt, Cataline,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: because it's very rare to find someone that actually successfully
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: gets an eximation, you know, just an assign Jackie just
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: raised up a note here, doctor Michelle Dupree, does embalming
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: a body affect the ability to retrieve DNA or extract DNA.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: It does affect the ability to extract nuclear DNA, which
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: is typically the kind of DNA that we always talk about. However,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: earlier I mentioned mitochondrial DNA, and mitochondrial DNA can be
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: taken from the bone marrow. So if there's still bone
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: marrow available and this last a very very long term,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: then embalming does not affect that, and we would still
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: be able to possibly to get DNA from that. What
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: about the nucleus of the hair, doctor Dupree? Couldn't you
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: get nuclear DNA from that? Yes, she may be able to,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: but again, depending on how long that body has been buried,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: it may have deteriorated. You know, I'm completely transfixed on
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: how we're going to identify who this baby is. Now
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: share I'll a point with the genetic genealogist and founder
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of our roots DNA Shara, Again, thank you for being
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: with us. How how's it going to just explain it
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: to me in regular people talk? Okay, Nancy, So genetic
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: genealogy is actually the use of the results of an
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: autosomal DNA test, which is a direct consumer test that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: twenty six million people have tested as of today, and
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: we use those results just like we would use a
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: birth certificate or a census record to determine relationships between individuals.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So basically, I would look at the list of the
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: DNA matches of this baby once the DNA has been
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: extracted and put in the correct format, and what I
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: look for is shared matches, and I need to find
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: the common ancestors within those matches that would give me
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a possible surname, a possible location of ancestors, and then
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I build a family tree from those ancestors. I build
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: it down. Okay, hold on, you're going warp speed with
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: me here, hold on just a moment, and I are
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you familiar. I'm sure you are with the recent cracking
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: of the case of a Golden State killer. He raped
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and murdered so many people throughout the California region. Actually
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: had been a cop in two different jurisdictions, and it
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: was just cracked recently, and I met with the one
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: of the team. He's always very modest, reminds me a
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: little bit of you. Major Rayburn he always it's Paul
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: holds h ol eyes. He always says, I'm part of
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: a team. But he has taken the forefront of that.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And what you're saying is right. You don't just get
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: the DNA, say the rape kit or from the baby,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: and then plug it into a machine and poof outcomes
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: the mother or the perpetrator. He put it up on
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: a flow chart, really a big poster. You gotta go
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: way back because the mother in this case may not
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: be in the DNA data bank hotis. She may not
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: be there. She may very well not be a criminal
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: offender that had to give their DNA, or a civilian worker.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I mean I had to give my fingerprints to be
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: a district attorney, an assistant DA. She may have never
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: given her a DNA, but somebody connected to her may
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: have done ancestry dot Com or or whatever. She may
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: have a relative that is a civilian, a civil servant,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: or in jail that gave their DNA. So you have
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: to go back, way back. Let's just say great great
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: great great grandparents and start building a family tree and
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: seeing who pops up in connection to the baby. It's
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: very complicated, Sarah, Yes, Nancy, it is it is a process.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: It can take a long time to do. And again
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: it depends on how close the matches are. If if
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: you have a second cousin match, that means you share
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: great grandparents. So in that situation, I would store it's
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: a great grandparent, look at their children and then look
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: at their children, and you have to have DNA on Well,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: how would you know? How would you know it's a
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: second cousin. Well, when you get a list of DNA
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: matches from this company, say you test it family Tree
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: DNA or at ancestry um. What I would get is
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: a list of DNA matches and it tells me um
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: the possibility of relationships to that match um. And it's
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: all measured in centa morgan um. So it's say if
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: you were in what WA, it's measured in what to
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Morgan's and that is the rule. Okay. Sent to Margins,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: m O R G A N. Sent to Margan's h
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Major Rayburn and Cataline. Have you ever heard this talk before?
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Sent to Margins. I'm not familiar with that one. I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm back in school. Please keep talking to Sara.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: So it's measured in SENTA and the rule of measure
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of DNA. Apparent child would measure an average of thirty
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: two hundred to thirty five hundred. Sina Morgan's a sibling
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: would be around twenty three hundred. A grandparent and uncle,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: half sibling, niece nephew would be around eighteen hundred. So
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: we look at those numbers and it's a puzzle. You
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: try to fit the DNA matches together to figure out
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: who the shared ancestor is, and then we begin building
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: the family tree crime stories with Nancy Grace, I want
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: to go back to the initial facts about a little
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: bitty baby found. You know, my mom worked out a
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: big canning company and I would go through the factory
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: to get up to her office and I would see
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: huge drums like this, and I'm just thinking of a
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: little bitty baby girl left in there overnight, found sucking
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: her thumb, dead the next morning. Just thinking about that,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: it's kind of overwhelming to me, Major, because I remember
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: how helpless the twins were when they were born. They
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: couldn't even hold a little heads up. Major Rabram, what
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: do you think if that body is exhumed? What chance
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: do we have with the help of Catalene and the
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: help of Shara, What chance do we have of solving
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: this is like any other case, you have to put
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the puzzle together, and we're hoping that Shara and her
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: genealogy DNA background can put the puzzle piece that we
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: need in place. I first got involved with DNA in
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: a serial homicide case from Baton Rouge and learned the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: power of chasing relatives through DNA. In that case, our
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: serial killer had some some unique markers in his DNA
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: that they chased in the crime database that we're able
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: to find a distant relative that started putting this on
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: the trail to this. So I know, with the advances
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: today and the amount of DNA that people have put
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: into the data banks for their genetic research, I think
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: we have a really good chance at finding a relative
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: that may push us towards the mother. Wow, has it
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: been publicized at all yet, Major Rayburn, that you're on
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: the hunt and that the body's going to be exhumed
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: because who knows the mother may may, doubtful may come forward. No,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: it has not been publicized. But you know word of mouth, Well,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: it's about to be the word of mouth in a
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: small community. It will not take long, you know, our
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: cold taste detective has been poking around the PD and
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: trying to find evidence and case files, and you know
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: the word is starting to spread. Second thiege. Now one
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: thing still's bothering me, Major Rayburn, Well many things, but
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: thank goodness, we know where the body is that hasn't
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: been lost in the evidence room. And you know, on
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: TV and in movies they always it's always a plot
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: as somebody hides the evidence, or they steal the evidence,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: so they swap the evidence. It's not so not like that.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: That evidence room is really it's a room usually with
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: shelves or tables and a bunch of boxes stacked on
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: top of each other, and maybe maybe a name scribbled
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: across it. Somebody asked me how many cases I tried.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I tried to piece it back together. But in those days,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I was trying cases so fast and furious. I'd be
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: lucky if I even wrote a defendant's name down on
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: a list before I went to the next one. And
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: in an evidence room, especially one that's been moved a
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: couple of times, I find that very odd that the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: receipt was put in there with the girdle. Very odd, indeed,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: But I mean it makes me wonder did a man
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: do that? Did a man also kill the mother? There's
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: this could go in so many different directions, but it's
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: highly unlikely if he did kill the mother, he would
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: dispose of their bodies separately. Anyway. That's a whole other
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: can or worms right there. But we've got the main evidence.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: We've got the baby's body. That's what we need from there.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: You know, we can go somewhere, we do it. We
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: do have the body, and that's that's the first step,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: is to retrieve the body, the evidence for from that child,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: and hopefully we'll get a good DNA DNA reading on
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: it and get a good a good match somewhere. That's
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: gonna be determined by some medical examiner that's going to
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: take those samples. Katleen is going to take care of
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: getting the body exhumed and then share on the point
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: from our roots DNA taking the time and the energy
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: and the man hours and the research it will take
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: to make heads or tails out of this cataline. What
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: do you want in the end, Because I know what
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I want. I want to see a name on that
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: grave marker, and I want that baby to rest in peace.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I do too, and most most definitely I want to
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: see this sweet little angel get justice. That is so
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: important and I want her to be identified. So that's
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: that's my end result is justice and for her to
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: be identified and whoever it just tours to pay for it.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: You know, it just hit me, Major Rayburn. I've been
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: sitting here analyzing this is the case. But the thought
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: of my little Lucy at two pounds, being left in
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: a big, cold, fifty five gallons drum overnight and her
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: crying and sucking her little thumb for comfort, it is
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: just is so upsetting. This little baby weighed six pounds.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: We have a whole community that would have taken this job. Okay,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: we wait as justice unfolds, and our new friends Kathleen Terrier,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Major Wendell Rayburn from Iberia Parish and Sheryl Appoint founder
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: of our Roots DNA god Willing will be back with
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: us as this case progresses. In the investigation goes on
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend