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Episode 10: Are We Smoking Again or Do We Just Need More Skills · the Unvarnished Edit

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Welcome to episode 10 of The Unvarnished Edit, where two friends talk about what it's actually like to live an adversity-filled life.
Be prepared to laugh, possibly cry, and swear along with us.
This is Angie, and in today's episode, Jaelene and I discuss our recovery stories, and we also wanted to give a activation warning, because we do talk about substance use.
We talk about ideations.
We talk about some mental health topics, and so we wanna make sure that you all know what is gonna be discussed, and that you take the best care possible of yourself as you go through this.
We hope you enjoy.
Good morning.
How are you? Oh, I thought I Good.
You froze for a second, and then you were okay.
I know.
I panicked.
I froze on the computer, and I panicked in real life, so I was, like, double frozen.
I am in a different spot today, and I am, like...
I'm a little nervous.
So we're having work done at our house today, and so I couldn't record in my Mm-hmm.
closet.
so I booked a room at...
a study room at the library, but you can only book, Yeah.
hours at a time.
can only book two hours in a day, and it won't let you do anything else, and you have to, like, use your library card to reserve the room.
But I needed more than two hours, and so I used my daughter's library card to do, like, back-to-back reservations.
So I'm in this room for...
I have four hours in this room, and I am, like, so scared I'm gonna get in trouble.
Having a librarian disappointed in me would be, like, my worst nightmare.
I would probably cry.
If they came in here and they were like, "Ma'am, you need to leave this room," and I had to say, "Actually, it's my daughter that I booked it with."
And if...
I would, like, cry if I got in trouble.
'Cause librarians are, like, um...
They're so great, and I'm so scared of No, I get that.
them.
I get that.
I'm just afraid of getting in trouble when I, um, bend any kind of rules.
It's like my brain automatically goes to, "Oh, Yes.
so gonna get in trouble," like...
And it's like, okay, and if I do, like, what's gonna happen? Like, you're not...
Yeah, we're not-- going back to previous episodes, we're not getting arrested.
We will be chastised, if anything, and made to feel bad, but it's okay.
Yeah.
It's a different experience, and we'll see how it goes.
Hopefully, if you guys...
If I start to panic, it's because there's a librarian walking towards the door.
Like, I can see through the No, I get that.
if this just shuts off randomly, it's because I have panicked and I'm fleeing the library.
But that's how I feel too, 'cause, like, my husband's home, and normally when we schedule things, right, he's out.
And this morning he's like, Oh, I don't have to, you know, actually leave the house until, like, 1:30."
And I was like, "Well, I'm recording, this morning and-" Honestly, I like recording when nobody is here, period, end of story.
I think one of the reasons why this works so well for you and I is we've never...
We're so open with each other.
Like, I don't, I'm never worried about what you'll think.
But if somebody else is listening, I think subconsciously I know I'll change what I'm gonna say so that they don't hear this, like, Mm-hmm.
of me Mm-hmm.
My permission.
so I have started to realize that, like, if I want to do anything creative, I have to be, as Virginia Woolf says, in a room Yes.
my own.
Yeah.
think that's and that makes total...
Yeah, that makes total sense though.
Honestly, when we're talking about, so today's episode talking about, our recovery journeys, it has all been really a journey of, we're gonna keep repeating that word, 'cause now every time I say it, all I hear is our conversation.
But is- Learning new things about ourselves, why we do that, why we respond that way, and how we can respond differently, right? Like, how we can keep-- how we can make our space safe enough in order to be okay and be in that space without, at least for, for my recovery journey, it's always been, you know, it- whether-- no matter what it was, whether it was substances, whether it was, you know, I say that I've been in recovery from myself, which is, is so accurate because it's, like, for the last, oh gosh, how old am I now? So for the last 20 years is really looking at, like, what is my behavior pattern? Why do I respond that way, and how can I change that? But I can't change it until I feel safe enough in order to do that, right? And, um, Yeah.
yeah, it's been a, it's been a, it's been a long road.
Don't say, say it.
It's been a long road.
Um...
it has been, and I think, so with our last episode, I did kind of get in a little bit to my addiction, and I know that I went really quickly through, like the getting clean part and the getting sober part from that.
But, so I think I've shared more, a little bit more of that piece just 'cause of what that episode was.
I think to even things out before we really get into like what is recovery versus Yeah.
and like all of those things, do you wanna share kind of a little bit about your background in that, part of your life so that we're kinda talking Absolutely.
You've heard this being said before, right? I have always thought that addiction was just normal and happened in everyone's families, right? Like, addiction has literally been in my life since in utero, and I have seen addiction in all family members that you could possibly, you know, see, in grandparents, in parents, in spouses, in exes, in my children, in myself, right? Like, it had my siblings.
It-- Their addiction has always been so present in my life.
And I thought there was no way in effing hell that it would actually ever, right, touch me.
Like, I would never be in recovery from it 'cause I knew what to look out for, you know, all of those kinds of pieces.
So officially, we're in recovery from alcohol use disorder and opioid use disorder, and honestly, just like so many other things.
I can get addicted to anything.
That is literally just how I am.
Like, I honestly have to be, um, pretty much aware of things and how it's showing up in my life and what that kind of, what that kind of looks like.
So I never really thought that I had an issues.
Like, but I would say, you know, the f- what kind of got me started on this whole entire journey was I had, what I would consider a nervous breakdown when I was 30.
So my kids, my older kids, were 6, 5, and 2 at the time, and I was drinking a lot at that point in my life.
And I was, like, straight from the bottle kind of drinking.
And, um, it was, it was bad.
And so the night that it all kind of came to a head was, um, I was making dinner, and I was trying to think, um, of...
Like, I didn't wanna die because I didn't wanna leave my kids without a mom, but I didn't wanna leave either because I didn't wanna leave my kids with knowing that their mom just left them, right? So, so my solution at, in that moment was I needed to just take all of us out because that was the kindest thing that I could do to my kiddos because then they, yes, would die, but they'd be able to, in my mind, go on, you know, come back into this world and be with a better mom.
And that's when I was like, "Oh, um, there's something, like, really, really wrong if that's where I'm at," right? And so I had called my best friend, and she came over and she dumped all my booze out in the sink, and I was so loaded, and sent me up to bed as I sat there trying to decide, um, how can I leave? So we lived in a t- I lived in a two-story townhouse at the time, and my purse was on the kitchen counter, and my car was in the, in the garage, and I'm still trying to, like, plot, okay, but, like, how can I get out of here, right? And, um, and realized there was no way, and besides that I'm pretty sure I just passed out before, like, I actually could figure out a solution.
And I woke up the next day and I was like Oh, wow.
Like we, we've got...
Yeah, we've got a problem.
We've got a problem.
And will I say that that was the last time I drank alcohol? Absolutely not.
Yeah, absolutely not.
However, it was the very beginning of the kind of journey of realizing, like, I, I really do deal with addiction issues, and what does that look like? And then with the opioid use disorder, I was sick for, like, six months while they were trying to figure out what was going on, and I was prescribed, um, I was prescribed opioids until they realized it was my gallbladder.
Got my gallbladder taken out.
And, kinda going back to the whole, like, I'm afraid of getting in trouble, I'm so glad I was like that.
So even though I was absolutely addicted to opioids and would take them from others, right, and use whatever prescriptions I could find that people had in cabinets, I never, um, took the step to, to getting a dealer, thank God.
I was like, "I, I, like, I really have an issue with all things substances."
Right? Like, it doesn't even make a difference what a substance is.
I will do it with the gym.
I will do it with eating.
I will do it with not eating.
Right? I h- there's, like, anything that could, that fills that momentary need, um, for control in my...
a perceived control in my life, I can take that to excess and to harm.
Yeah.
The way I like to frame my addictive behavior is I am actually addicted to not feeling Mm-hmm.
big feelings, and whatever shows up that helps me do that Yeah.
is fantastic to me, right? so that can be opioids, that can be alcohol, that can be my cellphone Mm-hmm, that can be, harmful relationships.
I do think a lot of people in addiction are avoiding something Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
right? That's just like a Yeah.
of a known thing, right? And, but I don't, I don't wanna put that on everyone, right? But, um, I'm like super addicted to Yeah.
Yeah.
big Yeah, I get that.
Which is unfortunate Yeah.
is And I'm, m- and mine is more of a controlled situation, right? So, like, now I would say that, um, like I still to this day have to really be aware because of, my addictive tendencies.
So I do, like, intermittent fasting.
And this is, this is really just to have this conversation of when we talk about recovery and when we talk about, when we talk about addiction and things, y- we tend to always go to this as substance use disorder, right? We very rarely talk about process addictions, there's so many different ones.
But I think it's also what helps people, identify and see and have compassion, right, for addiction.
But I've been intermittent fasting for years.
It's, like, one of the only thing that helps with my inf- inflammation.
But I have to have rules around it, because I will go 22 hours.
If I went 20 hours the day before, I will go 20 and a half, and I will just push it.
Like, I And I know that about myself, right? I have to have rules around the thing.
So, like, if I go to 18 hours one day, then I can't the next day.
I have to go back to the 16 hours, right? That I can't do it more than 20 hours.
And if I do it at 20 hours, I can't do that for a whole entire other week.
It is the only way that I will not constantly compete with myself Yeah.
Yeah.
It is all for the...
It's, it's all under this guise of control and doing something, right? And when I go to the gym, I can't work out for a certain...
I can't work out longer than a certain amount.
I'll be in the gym for three and a half, four hours.
Like, I have to, I have to write things down so, so that I can, like, go back and see.
Um, it, it really is, it is all-encompassing, and honestly, every single day.
Every single day Yeah, that's a lot.
Doesn't-- I mean, all of that like boundary creating and guardrails, and it's like this con- your brain in the background is just constantly Mm-hmm.
math, right? Of how much, how long did I fast yesterday? How long was I at the gym? How long...
And it, you can see it becomes like all-consuming.
it's like that's almost, not an addiction, but that noise in your head is something that I would need Mm.
to escape from, Yeah.
right? Like hearing you say all of that and all of like, it's, it's actually, I feel Yeah.
stressed out about it right now, and I'm like in my previous life, if I wasn't doing such a good job right now with handling myself, if I had that amount of mental noise around trying to avoid, Yeah.
or not avoid, trying to manage my addiction, I would have to drink or do something to Yeah.
"I can't handle this."
Like that's big emotion.
Even that is a big emotion to me.
Like, so I'm not sure if big emotion is the right word, but like that mental tax you just Yeah.
to Yeah.
like, And that makes me feel safe.
I would, I would be drunk.
I would "Okay, we got this."
Like, "We can do this for, for us."
That's so funny.
The Yes.
your pathology is a solution that would cause Mm.
to activate, and that, if, that is like the nuance of addiction Yes.
You cannot, there is no Yeah.
statement you can make.
There is no general Yep.
you can provide.
It is so individual.
It is, and it requires so much Mm-hmm.
That like we are in this space and that we have done this and that we know so many other people that are in, not only Mm-hmm.
but they are in recovery, totally different things, yeah.
So why don't we talk about that? So right now, the way I think about that Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
in recovery.
I'm not always sober, 'cause I do drink sometimes.
And we'll talk, I wanna talk about alcohol for, in a little bit.
But, I am like, for the rest of my life, I will Yeah.
recovery, right? Is that how you think of those two words? Like how do you think of Yeah, sobriety, I just think of not using substances, right? Recovery is, is a whole process of things.
In my book, be in active recovery and still, use substances.
That's that whole, like, nuanced, discussion on addiction, right? And, and I, I do kind of wanna, like, level set here that I am coming from a position that I have worked in recovery for almost 20 years.
So I have worked in inpatient residential, I had a nonprofit that did, advocacy work.
We did peer support work.
We did homeless outreach.
I work in prevention.
I call it the entire spectrum of, Yeah.
And so I have, I've worked in a methadone clinic, right? I've worked in an abstinence-based recovery center.
All I'm saying is I have a lot of experience in this realm, not only just personally, but also professionally, and understanding that it, that it looks so different for each individual person, right? There are some people that they will never be able to use substances again.
Personally, I will never use substances again, any of them, because I have realized that I ju- I can't.
I really don't want to.
My brain wants to.
There are so many days that I'm like, "Ugh, I wish I could have a drink today," or, "I wish I could smoke."
But I know what the after effects are, and I, and I don't want those, right? Where, you know, my husband's been in recovery from, heroin use disorder and, honestly a marijuana use disorder since he was 19 years old, and he's 60.
And he knows that he will never, ever be able to use THC again because it will start...
It is his first love in his life, and that was thing.
But he can drink alcohol, and he, and he does every once in a while.
He doesn't do it very often, but he, he does.
It-- That was never an issue with him.
He is absolutely, like, the epitome of recovery, right? He's, like, continuing, always continuing to work on himself.
He's always continuing to hold himself accountable.
One of the tricky things, um, for me with addiction has been I cr- I didn't Mm.
substance abuse at all.
So I grew up Mm-hmm.
sober family, right? For religious reasons, because it was against the religion of my family, and they were very strict, strict in adherence to Yeah.
religion.
so I had no idea what it even looked like for someone to use alcohol appropriately and not appropriately.
I had no Mm-hmm.
whatsoever.
There were no conversations about it whatsoever.
It was just, "We don't do these things.
Do not do these things."
And so for me, it was like once I crossed that line and I did do those things, I had no Mm-hmm.
what to do.
I didn't know...
I, I didn't know what was too much, where the line was, where, I didn't have any guardrails whatsoever.
My only guardrail was, "Do not do it."
And so I remember, like, in college when I started drinking, and I really just started drinking because everybody else was, and I had never even been taught how to say no, right? And so-- Or, like, that you could make up an excuse or...
But the thing was, I didn't know if I wanted to or not.
It wasn't a decision I ever consciously made not to.
And so I was like, "Well, I'm gonna try it out."
But what I did not know is that there Mm-hmm.
In my family, I remember finding that out when I was much older, and I was like, "That-- I Yeah.
that when I was younger."
I feel like someone should have said to me, "Hey, we need to be careful.
We Mm-hmm.
this in our family."
It was just no conversation whatso-whatsoever.
Um, and so I try, I have always been probably like-- I probably went so far the other way where talking to my kids about, um, you know, "This is what addiction looks like.
This is what's in our family."
But the trickiest thing for me about addiction is this is all just to say that you never know until you start using it Absolutely.
You don't, and, and that's, that's the whole entire thing.
Like, I was raised exact opposite because, and for those of you who are listening and you have experience with s- with Wisconsin or live in Wisconsin, Yeah.
and you drink at any time.
It's 5:00 somewhere, and that is, you know, what I grew...
It did not make a difference if it was the morning.
It did not make a difference.
You know, there w- there were no parameters around it.
Everybody did it.
And the thing with addiction is the vast majority of people can do that and not develop alcoholism, right? And, and why would we think, why would we think that we would be the, the minority that would develop a substance use disorder from it? And that's all substances, right? The majority of people, 75% of people can use opioids responsibly.
75% of people.
So why would we think that we would be part of the 25%, right? And even with all the knowledge and what it looks like and all of those pieces, you still don't know if that's gonna be you, right? If not...
But the th- same thing with process addictions.
Like, you have to eat.
If you have an eating disorder, right? If you have disordered eating, it's not like you can just stop altogether because that is the substance of choice for your system, right? You have to figure out how to, how to live while doing it, live within that, and I think that is the tr- the tricky part of addiction because you can talk to your kids till you're blue in the face.
My kids know that statistically, if you wait until the age of 21, the chance to even try any substances, the chance of developing an addiction drops by 80%.
But who waits until 21 before you introduce any substance into your system, right? And so it's kind of like that, it's still that whole entire conversation of like, even if you see it, even if you know what that looks like, you still don't know what that looks like and how that is presenting in you until you're already in it.
Yep.
Yep.
in it.
Until you're in it.
Which leads to the question of like, I think about this with alcohol a lot, like, and eating is a good example, too like, prescription drugs, it's, it's clear-cut, right? If you're using a prescription drug outside of the directions on the bottle, Yep.
Yep.
you're Yes.
it.
So simple, right? That is just like a clear-cut definition.
Um, but alcohol is like, how do you, h- where is, is the line of like, this is a problem, this is not a problem? And I know for me, alcohol is still a struggle, um, because I enjoy drinking.
And what I have learned is that, 'cause I obviously didn't drink while I was incarcerated.
I mean, I did twice, so you can get alcohol in prison.
I was sober that whole time, and I came home and I didn't drink when I got home for like over a year.
And don't remember why I started, but once I started, that was the first time that I really was able to start recognizing, okay, I'm actually only drinking because I'm sad.
Like, I started to recognize the feeling of super sad right now or lonely, and so I'm gonna have a drink.
And so that's been really informative for me personally, is I've started to If I feel like I wanna drink, I have to have like a real conversation with myself of why.
What, what are you feeling? What's your vibe? What's going on? And I-- what I have found is if I'm at a restaurant and I'm with friends, it Yep.
just because I'm having fun.
If I'm at home, it's because I'm sad or lonely or stressed.
It's, it...
Like, Yep.
me, that's the difference.
If I'm out somewhere, it's no big deal.
And if I'm out somewhere, I can literally have one drink and Yep.
and not drink more.
If I'm home, I cannot only have one drink.
If I start drinking, Yeah.
the entire bottle.
And where I'm at right now, I feel comfortable and I feel okay with it, and also Yeah.
I Yeah, no, ab- absolutely.
When I stopped drinking, I did not actually intend to stop drinking.
Never was the intention to never have alcohol again.
The intention when I started was, "Man, every time I drink," and I wasn't drinking a lot at this point, because granted, this was like another 10 years after the first initial piece, right? Every time I drank, I did things that I was not proud of, right? And I got done and woke up in the morning and I was like, "What just happened?" It started out with like, okay, what it, what would it be like if I didn't drink, right? Like, I need to give myself at least this much of time, and I have to identify every time I wanna drink why is it that I'm drinking.
And there were only...
There was, the rule to it was I could drink if there was no emotion behind it.
If there was an emotion behind it, then I couldn't, then I couldn't drink because I was using alcohol for something else.
Right? And I came to find out there was never a reason that I ever wanted to drink outside of an emotion.
Right? There was like, it, I...
Going back to the control thing, I like being in control of certain things.
Yeah.
everything, but knowing that I can't be in control of everything, I can be in control of myself.
I like knowing what I did the night before.
And I think part of it too with the severe dissociative disorder I have, it mimics that a lot of times.
So there are times that I'll wake up in the morning and, you know, I will be all foggy from the day before, just as if I have drank, and I've not had any alcohol.
It's all been my dissociation, that that feeling is very uncomfortable for me.
And I, I...
When I was drinking, it was so normal because that's how I, I, I lived that way so normally.
So when I took the alcohol away and realized, "Oh, man, I still deal with this thing, just my baseline does," right? Like, living my life.
Adding to it felt like it was too much.
Yeah, I can totally see that.
overwhelming that must feel to wake up and feel like you've been drinking, but you haven't been drinking, Yeah.
the side effect anyway, which is a side effect that deeply impacts your life because you can't remember Mm-hmm.
can't remember what you did, you can't remember where you were.
That's an incredibly disorienting feeling, and when you can blame it on alcohol, it's just like, "Oh, well, I was drunk."
But when it's your brain, that means, you know, a bunch of different things.
I was too stressed out or I did too much, or that means a lot for your life.
so I could see where that would be like, why That's it.
create that feeling Right there.
Yeah.
Yep.
Right? Right? If there's days I Yep.
a break from it, why would I add it back in? That Yeah.
logical sense.
So I can totally see.
I was, like, born and raised to be a drinker, and I legitimately was.
And I...
There were many times in my life for a long time that I can out-drink a lot of people.
I was born and raised in Wisconsin, just normal.
And, um, Yeah.
drinking is very actually odd.
Very odd.
Yeah.
See, it's not, it's not odd for me Yeah.
I grew- and nobody...
I mean, all my f- I Yeah.
I'm in a different circle of friends now, obviously.
but I grew up Yeah.
drinking, right? but my husband drinks, but not a lot, and Michael doesn't drink a lot.
Um, 'cause I- part of it's just we're getting Recovering? Like, that recovery ain't the I can barely stay up past my normal bedtime and be able to recover from that, much less, much less drinking.
Yeah.
know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, we focus a lot on the addictions that you and I are familiar with, right? Obviously, there's...
Because the way I think about it of like, I'm, I'm Mm-hmm.
not feeling these feelings, and you're addicted to being in control, and anything can Mm-hmm.
gap, right? Part of the conversation in, for me, in recovery is this interesting thing of, um Because I've done so much work on managing my emotions, which is really my big problem, quote unquote problem, my big struggle, um, the drive is just really not there, and that's like the Yeah.
piece of it, right? Like can be around opioids and Yeah.
Yeah.
"Oh, I Yeah.
Yeah.
Right? It's not Yeah.
I don't Yeah.
around them, right? But like, you know, Michael, Yeah.
My husband takes Ambien but don't take it, and there's been a couple times where I'm like, "I'm so tired.
I re- I really need sleep.
I'm gonna ask him for an Ambien."
And I'm like, "No, you yeah.
need that to sleep.
You can take a melatonin, Yep.
really good."
Right? And then it's fine.
It's...
And, and part of that is because there's no emotion behind it.
I'm just trying to sleep.
But it's been really interesting for me to realize in myself that never crave Really? never Yeah.
to...
Yeah.
at all.
And I would, I would never Right.
to me.
I would ne- Yeah.
Test myself.
I don't have a desire to test myself.
Um, but I do not miss them.
I do not crave them.
For me, the addiction really was escaping my emotions.
And once I got into a place where Yeah.
start learning that and gain- gaining the ability to handle my emotions, it was just like, "Oh, well, I don't need these anymore."
It was...
It-- I don't know when it switched over, but, I know there's been a couple times in recent years where people have said like, you know, in, in a sense of trying to make sure that I'm okay, they've said, "Hey, you know, we've got this in the house or this in the house."
And I'm like, "Whatever."
Like, "Thank you for telling me, but I'm fine."
Like, I appreciate knowing, and it helps me that you know that I know because there's accountability in that, right? Um, but okay, I'm fine.
It's-- That's like what Um, yeah, recovery to me is actually, um- It has nothing to do with substances, and I think it's probably because I have so many process addictions, right? Recovery to me means that I am not using anything to escape what I'm currently feeling.
That I'm, like, feeling my feelings and I'm, you know, I'm moving through hard times.
I'm asking for support.
Like, the things that I didn't do when I was using, right? Because sometimes even, like, not asking for support was that whole addiction to having the control in my life, that I was the one doing everything, right? When I think about recovery I think about being able to be present in my daily life.
Although it is hard as most of the time.
I don't compare myself, I'm not saying this in a comparison way to you, but I do when I think about you and I and where we're at in, like, our, Yeah.
Long road of healing, et cetera.
You're in further ahead of me, right? I don't mean that in any type of way other than just I'm later to it.
when you say that you're in recovery from yourself, that resonates with me in the sense that right now, the last, I would say, four to six months have been very different.
finally was able to get to a point where I was able to recognize, wait, I'm a grown-up.
I can change some of these things.
I'm in charge of me."
So I think I'm in this phase now where I am starting to Mm-hmm.
from myself, and by that I mean, um, undoing all of the rules and regulations I had before, undoing the things that I've Mm-hmm.
people pleaser.
I-- Well, right? Like, I'm starting to Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
more myself by no longer arguing A- absolutely.
And I'm hopeful that over the course of the next years, that I get to the point where I can say as confidently as I talk about Yeah.
today, how I treat myself and The actions that I take every day and whether they belong to me and my Yeah.
someone else.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And honestly, like, life is hard, you know? When you add any kind of addiction, onto it, it really is just this new long-term Yeah.
path that you're on, you know, because it, it doesn't go away.
I remember when, Yeah.
You know, when, when my, when my grandpa died, my grandma had not been smoking for years, you know, and that was the first thing she wanted was a cigarette, right? And I remember even, like, before sh- you know, before she died, she still wanted to smoke.
Like, that f- that feeling doesn't go away.
And for a lot of us with a substance use disorder, the cravings and the desire are still there, and they will be there long term.
Um, Todd and I d- talk about it regularly.
I just know that there are certain times that, like, I can have it in the house and it's totally, completely fine, and I can't.
Like, I had a really rough period about three to four weeks ago, and it was bad.
Like, the, the ideations were real strong.
Ideations is something that I deal with every day, so that's a normal piece, for me.
But they were just really bad at that point, and I had a lot going on.
And I texted him, and I'm a Normally there's vodka in our bathroom, and it's his, and I was like, "I need you to move it to where I don't know where it was."
And it's not even that I was like, "Oh, I'm going to absolutely drink it."
I didn't know if I wasn't going to.
Does that make sense? And so I was like and I was like, "I just, I gotta take this out, yeah, where it's not even, that where it's not even an option for me."
I just said to Jacen last weekend, last week when we were driving to school, I said, "Ugh, I think I'm gonna start smoking again."
And he's like, "Why?" And I'm all, "Because I just really want to."
Just really We've been having that same smoking conversation at our house, 'cause Yeah.
smoked, but he's quit and he's like, "It needs to come back.
I'm tired of..."
Like he...
And I've seen news articles talking about It's, it's super stressful right now.
Like, life is just really hard, and that yeah.
And the, I think the vibe of the article, the vibe of the article was, Yeah.
anyway, so, uh, I'm just gonna have the cigarette.
And I don't even smoke, and even I'm Right.
Right.
It is-- Yes.
Yes, because there's, there's a lot going on, you know, right now.
And s- and so yeah.
So will we...
Is recovery a lifelong thing? Absolutely, but I also look at it as kind of a learning thing.
And, um, if I can look at recovery as not the removal of substances or the removal of something that I enjoy and that works in the moment, and I look at recovery as, like you were saying, like being good with myself and enjoying the life that I have and looking forward to the future, I-- that is a li- that is a lifelong thing, right? Like, I hope I always am in that space.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so pretty.
That made me a little emotional.
It made me think of this quote I saw recently, and I've said it at a couple trainings.
I stopped saying it because when I said it, it-- everyone really emotional, and it was like adding Yeah.
to the room.
But it was every coping skill comes from a Yeah.
and love.
And if I think about addiction in those Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
so true for me, and that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, other people.
It's a lack of nurturing Mm-hmm.
myself, of like it's okay to be mad sometimes, and it's okay to be sad, and it's okay to like...
I'm, I was so hard on myself for having big feelings that I couldn't Yep.
with them, right? And so if we can think of any addiction as a coping skill, which I, they are, and coping skills are coming from a lack of love and nurturing, if we can figure out how to add that love and nurture into our lives, whether it's through taking care of yourself or asking your spouse for help you know, any way, I don't think that's the prescription for addiction, Mm-hmm.
part of it.
It's definitely going to make recovery and sobriety Mm-hmm.
if we're getting some form of nurturing and love in the spot that is, that we need to cope with, in the spot that Yeah.
the Yeah, absolutely.
And that reminds me of like when I, when I do my presentations on trauma and substance use disorder, when we talk about, reoccurrence of use, the more commonly termed, relapse, is that life has overwhelmed the coping skills, the current coping skills that we have.
And that is when reoccurrence of use happens, right? Like, the reason that we're Yeah.
thinking about going back to smoking is because there's so much going on in life and society right now, and the current coping skills that we have for them just meet it, 'cause obviously we're not using.
But if life ever does overwhelm that level of coping skills that we have, that's where the recipe for that, that reoccurrence of use is to happen.
I love this conversation on recovery I think a lot of times it's bastardized, and all we're doing when we do that is just increasing the shame and increasing the use, to be honest.
And so when we can have these conversations in a way of like, "Hey, this looks different for everybody," and there's a, there's a different need behind it for everybody.
You know, even with you and I having the, you know, the same pieces as, you know, overusing alcohol and, um, irresponsibly using opioids kind of piece to it.
There still were two different reasons, and what works for me actually makes it overwhelming for you.
Which is why we can never...
Yeah, which is why we can never be, like, a one-size-fits-all when it comes to recovery.
Never.
I want to come into the conversation and my own work on myself with complete equanimity, and accepting and being neutral about all of the pieces and parts of it, and trying not Yep.
them right, wrong, good, bad.
Yep.
It just Yeah.
So that's what I'm hopeful people can hear and in themselves is if you think you are struggling, you don't have to say, "Oh, this is so bad, I have to stop."
You can say, "I'm not sure this coping Mm-hmm.
for me right now.
How can I build a Mm-hmm.
a healthier one, a safer one?" Yep.
Yeah.
And if you do need help, there's no shame in that whatsoever.
No.
and Yeah.
Looks different in so many ways.
I think we're gonna have to have another conversation on, all of the different kinds of help That is, yeah, that is avai- that is available.
Oh, this was a good conversation.
It was, yeah.
I know.
It was.
Thank you for always being so honest and brave in saying You too.
Okay, we'll talk to you later Okay, bye Thank you for joining us today.
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