Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: Lou Diamond Phillips Went Undercover as Richard Ramirez and It Backfired Instantly

Transcript

Killer Thriller: Lou Diamond Phillips Went Undercover as Richard Ramirez and It Backfired Instantly · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roback and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: For more than a year, Richard Ramirez terrorized California, slipping
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: into homes at night and attacking victims with seemingly no pattern, men, women, children,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: young and old. The unpredictability of his crimes made the
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: so called night Stalker one of America's most feared serial killers.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: In the movie The night Stalker, Lou Diamond Phillips portrays
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Ramirez years later on San Quentin's death row. The film
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: lends fictional encounters with the very real crimes, psychology, and
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: mythology surrounding Ramirez. We're going to dive into the horrifying
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: case and the challenge of telling a true crime story
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: about a killer who became almost as anous for the
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: fascination surrounding him as for his crimes. Lou, Welcome to
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking with me today.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Thrill Thrilled to be here. Thanks for the time, appreciate it.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: I really, first of all, I'm a very big fan
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: and heaven for many years, so it really is an
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: honor to speak with you, and your work in this
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: movie is just so disturbing and chilling and excellent. So this,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: you know, Richard Ramirez is one of those names that
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: immediately conjures up fear, but the reality of what he
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: was doing was it was just even more terrifying. So
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: but before you made The night Stalker, how much did
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: you actually know about the extent of his crimes?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Well, you know what's interesting is that is it I
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: was in La at the time, you know, I got
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: to La in eighty six and filmed Love Abba that summer,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and I think it was eighty seven, was like the
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: majority of his.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: The crimes predominantly eighty forty five.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Right, And so yeah, no, because I remember, I remember
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: being sort of immersed in it at the time and
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: very and very aware of it because it was going
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: on and this was, you know, not too long after
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: you know, the Hillside Stranglers as well. So, I mean,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: interestingly enough, I did quite a bit of research when
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I was doing the movie. The First Power was The
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: First Power, you know, dealt with a serial killer, obviously
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: demonic and and loosely based Patrick Channing, the character played
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: by Jeff Kober loosely based you know, on On Ramirez.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: And as a result, you know, I did a lot
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: of reading up on the Hillside Strangler and whatnot, a
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: little bit of reading on on Ramirez and did some
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: ride arounds with Detective Bob Grogan, who was one of
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: the guys who caught the Hillside Stranglers. Oh wow, really
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: that task force? So yeah, we did. The first power
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: was at eighty nine, So I was aware, you know,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: of the exploits and and and uh, you know the
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: uh and being in southern California and knowing that you
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: know this this was sad enough for serial killers at
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, did people Was there a feeling in the air,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: like were people really afraid? I mean, you read these
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: things that they were people were locking their windows, they
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: were doing because we didn't have this sort of communication
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: that we have now and the availability of information, so
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: people were really no watching news.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: And you know and reading the newspapers and whatnot. You know,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: you know, the internet was up there then people on
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: their phones was not there, so so uh uh and
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: and and I would imagine that a lot of the
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: anecdotal evidence only you know, uh made people more afraid
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: because you don't know, you know, the whole truth. I mean,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: there's a ton of misinformation now, but you know, when
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: people were going, oh, I heard this happen, you know
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: to you know, two streets over or whatnot? You do, yea.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And the fact that that ra mirors Is methodology was
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: just so random.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's one of the things that was so scary.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: There was no real pattern or no victim profile.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: No. And so you know when I when I started
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: doing the research on it, and by the way, the
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: book The Night Stalker Philip Carlo or Carlo, Yeah, amazing,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: amazing resource, all of the the videos of him, which
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: there weren't many, you know, half a dozen or so.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: But once again, one of my greatest resources was a
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: real life detective, and that was Detective Gil Carrillo, who
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: was the co head of the task force that was hunting. Oh.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, he's in the documentary one of the most recent documentaries. Yes.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, and I did the forward to
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the novelization of The First Power and talk about this
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: a lot as well. Uh but yeah, all of that
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: went into my research on Ramirez and and you know
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: what it was to get inside his head. I've said
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: it before, I mean, he's a really really chilling guy,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: you know. And I had played a role on Law
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: and Order Seek, you know, Special Victims Unit that was
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: somewhat similar. That was there was a little bit of
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: an appetizer for yeah, for the main course of Richard Ramirez.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's wonderful because the fandom has voted me
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: like one of their top ten, you know villains on SVU.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: But the approach to that role was very similar. And
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: what was I think most frightening about Ramirez is how
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: sort of banal and normal he was, you know, just
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I'd even called him the beavis and butt heads of
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: you know, of Ceibal Keepers because he would listen to
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: a C. D C. You know, when he drove around
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: la and just kind of you know, have a feel
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: for things, and you know, it was this unwashed t shirt,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: wearing bad tooth, you know, Brad breath kind of right.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: It's almost like a caricature of a person, not not
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: this sort of you know Mike Myers kind of you know,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: frightening you.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Know, uh uh thing that we get in the movies.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: He was. He was just so you know, mediocre and
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: and and uh uh monotone, you know, I mean you know,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: in the trial, he he you know, gained notoriety because
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know, he put the long
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: hair in the rock and roll persona. He felt like,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: you know, had a little bit more of that charisma.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: But that's really what he aspired to. He wanted he
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: wanted to be famous, right, and so you know it
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: was it was in his uh you know uh uh
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: study of Satanism and and and and and wanting to
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: feel superior in all of that, you know. And I
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: had I had a very funny experience after having read
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: the book and watched the you know, the uh a
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: lot of the videos and whatnot, you know, and and
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: you know, going back to my training as an after
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: I come from the theater, I thought, oh, right, you
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: know what, I'm going to see what it feels like.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: So I put on a hoodie and I went to
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: a neighborhood that wasn't mine, and I was just going
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: to walk around for a while, and if the windows
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: were open, I'm gonna I was going to look into
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: him from the street. And just because that's sort of
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: what he did, is he just sort of you know,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: like he was, you know, browsing in the produce section,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: you know, trying to figure out which apples he wanted.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: You know, So I parked in a neighborhood that wasn't mine,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: had the hoodie was was, you know, going to walk
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: up and down the streets. And I passed a guy
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: you know, who was walking his dog, and as I
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: passing me, went, hey, Lou Diamond love your work.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Like this is never gonna work, is not gonna work.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: I can't get away with this anymore. You know.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Now you're gonna say somebody like call the cops on you.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been on that plan.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know his his so psychiatrists have called
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: him what they call a made psychopath as opposed to
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: a born psychopath. So, you know, his childhood is horrifying
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: in its own right. And it's reported that between the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: ages of ten and twelve he was exposed to extremely
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: violent wartime images by his cousin or his uncle. Yes
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: he was in Vietnam, who was in Vietnam, and you know,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: horrible torture and raping women and sometimes decapitating them. And so,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: as a society, how important do you think it is
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: for us to understand where someone comes from, while also
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: obviously not allowing that to excuse what they later do
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: in life.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, I mean, you know, especially now,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: but I don't even know when this sort of phenomenon started,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: of this massive interest in true crime, you know, and
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: I do think I think it is our morbid curiosity
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: about where it goes wrong, where you go off the rails,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: you know, what, what thing clicks in somebody's mind that
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: that that you know, uh, ceases to make them you know,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: moral human beings, right, you know, people who are so
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: a moral they don't know right from wrong anymore, or
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: they do know and they don't care. Uh uh and
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: and uh, I think we're fascinated by that. You know,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: we're fascinated by the fascinated by the bad guy. I mean,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: especially you know in today's world where you know, people
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: are betting the rules, and you know, greed is good,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: and you know all all of this other stuff that
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: sort of attacks anybody's moral compassed. Right, We as a
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: society go, okay, well, that's all right.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Right, It's like we're sort of breeding narcissism and making
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: it okay.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: There was a time though, when when that that offended us,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: when we found that to be horrific. Uh and especially
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: when it when it crossed when it crossed over the line,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, and the line being a murdered you know,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: or physical harm to someone. I mean, you know, unfortunately,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: we're dealing with you know, people today, we're getting away
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: with assault and getting away with bullying and and and
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: all sorts of things that that, for some bizarre reason,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: we've normalized. But there was a time where where we
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: were afraid that you know, the high school coach or
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: our pastor or anybody else you know, was secretly a
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: monster and said to discover that this was true, you know,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: And and and it's it's been a long march. It's
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: been a long march since you know, uh Truman Capoti
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: did in cold Blood and investigated that.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I think that actually they do sort of use that
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: as a kind of birth birthing point of people really
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: being interested and fascinated by true crime.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: It's it's absolutely the tipping point where everybody goes, how
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: could this happen?
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: And then you go through you know, the man Sion
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Earra and everything else, and then into the you know,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: into the heyday of serial killers, you know, right southern California,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and and but once again it's it's trying to understand
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: that psychology. I mean, part of it is we're fascinated
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: by it. How does it happen? The other part is
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: how do we prevent it? And then ultimately how do
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: we avoid it? Right?
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: How do we how do we not get that in
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: our world? Right? So when he we talked about that,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: he started to really lean into Satanism, and then you know,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: we could question he was raised Catholic and an abusive
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: father was an alcoholic. There were stories that he was
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: he would go and sleep in the cemetery to avoid
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: the abuse, and then his father tied him to a crucifix.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Like some of these things seem so unfathomable if you.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Wrote them in a movie, people wouldn't buy it. Now,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, going back even further, when you know mom
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: was working in the Nocona booth factory in Alpasso, who
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: knows what talks and she was you know, yes and
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: that and that what you know what that did to
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: him in Uterope, Uh, you know, a head injury I
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: think when he was five. So it's just you take
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: any one of this, you know these you know ingredients
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: of this recipe for and I came out of you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: reading that book, going, how could he not have been right?
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean he was roomed from a very
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: very early age to turn out this way, right, right.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So do you think the satanism element is something that
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: he you know, was a deeply held belief system or
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: something you just sort of used as a tool and
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: intimidation sort of?
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: He was an opportunist in many many ways, obviously I'm saying.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I mean he you know, even as victims they that
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: that was you know, once again his methodology. Could be
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: an older person, coulda be a younger person, could be married,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: could be single, that didn't matter, you know. Uh. I
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: think that he to a certain extent was a karma
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: chameleon in that respect. You know, the Satanism to to
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: me was not some deeply held belief, but it was
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: it was a way for him to exercise a sense
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: of superiority. Uh. He felt like it empowered him. Uh.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: And it was also you know, of the moment it
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: was you know, it was something that was in the zeitgeist,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, I mean starting with Manson,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: you know, and the health and the you know, all
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: of that in the forehead. Yeah, and so you know,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the and he wanted to be famous, you know, I
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: mean he really did have a rock and roll mentality. Yeah, yeah,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: that kind of guy.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you could see him some of the older the
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: photos you see of him earlier are differ from those
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: ones in the Courtroom forward. And it's just that it's
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: like he's gained this sense of power and importance. It's
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: how much do you think that the because it seems
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: like the headlines, you know, sort of catered to this
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: mythology and made him seem almost supernatural.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: He loved that. Yeah, he was reading all of the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: press releases and when and when the press called him
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: the Nightstalker, he was rilled, you know, all of a sudden,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: now he was a persona uh and and he embraced that.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And you know, I mean it's so funny because it
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: felt like part of part of him wanted to take
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: credit for it, you know, but that would have meant
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: getting caught, you know, but he was, he was he
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: was so secretly h thrilled about you know, the notoriety
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: that that you know, it's it just fueled his desire
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: to keep going. Right.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Oh god, So the investigation they finally gained some they
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: found him essentially or started to get down the road
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: of finding him when the police recovered a fingerprint from
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a stolen vehicle and identified him. I mean, to me,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: that feels like this, it's pretty remarkable that that, after
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: all of these things, this little fingerprint ultimately is what
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: cracks the case. It's like, I'm just sort of fascinated
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: by these things.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: And so they were able to put out his image,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, and a lot of the sort
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: of renderings of him and all of that sort of thing.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting too because I actually had the teeth Maade,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Oh you did. Yeah, I had the teethmade because that
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: was part of the trial as well. Yes, in that
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: he had bitten you know, other people and left you know, marks,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: and that was going to be you know, some of
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: the evidence against him. Yeah. No, it was a deep
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: dive in transformation. I dropped like twenty five pounds because
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: I was playing him at the end of his life
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: when he died of lymphoma.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: My wife was also a makeup artist in addition to
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: him many many other things that some great great you know.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: We actually did pull my eyes back a little bit
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: because he had that sort of kaya.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was going to ask you that because I
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: feel like it did look like your face looked different.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and yeah, yeah he had he had those
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: you know, narrow eyes and I guess it's more like
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: a kyote I, you know. And and we you know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: we did that, we did the you know, the thing
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: where you pulled them back and and changed the shape
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: of my eye and I'm losing the weight, you know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: changed the shape of you know, my cheat bones or
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: anything else. He had those he had really you know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: pronounced cheap bones. But but my point was is that
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: is that people were suddenly starting to figure out who
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: he was, and he had gone out of town and
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: came back. Uh. And it wasn't the cops that actually
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: caught him. It was you know, it was a tighborhood
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: where somebody saw him walking down on the streets and
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: he didn't realize that that you know, there were renderings
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: of pictures up you know, and and the neighborhood just
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: you know, they chased him down and beat the crack.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Out of him. I there's something incredibly satisfying about that,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: and like something that it's I love that they cover
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: that in the movie also, But it's like he there
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: is something that is so uh kind of righteous in
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: that somehow, yeah, exactly, you know that he was like
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: taken out of out of nowhere. He just they came
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: and attacked him the same way that he did, you know,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: without any sort of warning. At his sentencing, the judge
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: said his crimes exemplified cruelty, callousness, and viciousness beyond any
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: human understanding, which I think is a pretty accurate description.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Did you learn anything about how the way he regarded
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: his victims once he was incarcerated and in jail.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: He's a true psychopath, you know, who had no emotion
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: about it, you know, and that was the thing it,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, we all if we see a
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: child suffering, if we see an animal suffering, those of us,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: you know, with with a with a healthy emotional life,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: you know, feel bad. We feel you know, we feel sympathy,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: we feel pain. In many cases, you know, we're horrified,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: even at the death of a stranger for instance. You know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's you know, sadly, we've had
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of you know, famous people pass away recently,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: and you read the headline, and you know, and and
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: he was incapable of that, and so you know, not
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: not just the sociopath, but a true psychopath. And I
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: think a fascination you know, I mean it's it's it's
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: a little like Dahmer as well, an absolutely fascination with
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: with uh, the morbidity of it with you know, the
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: the fragility of life and how you know he could
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: wield power over that. But no, no particular sympathy for
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: for his victims. I think, you know, even a few
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: of them, you know, begged and you know, you know,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: it's it's sort of had no effect, I mean. And so, yes,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: a soulless, emotionless you know, the user, the taker of life.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: And yeah, you don't know how you get there. That's
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: a long.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Process, yes, And so one of one of the strangest
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: things to come from this was once he was in
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: court all of these women he was arrested, these women
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: that started to write to him and became romantically fascinated
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: with them, and he eventually even married one of these
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: women who was a had a normal job in society,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: you know, she worked like for Tiger Beat magazine or
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: something as an editor. And you know, it's like it's like,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I can't what did you make of that? When you were.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: You know, it's it's the fascination with fame, you know,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, oh yeah, fame and power, because
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: you know, to take a life, I mean that's you know,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: to that that that, in some circles would be the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: ultimate power. You know. Kissing said what he Allens said,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, you know, it's it's it's the
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: biggest afrodisiac, you know, fame and power. And he had both,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: and he became very very famous and very you know, infamous,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: and and and you know, I mean, ultimately, I guess
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't a bad looking guy, you know what I mean,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: killers go, but you know, not not quite you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: handsome like Bundy. But you know, now all of a sudden,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: he he attains the mythology that he wanted, you know.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And and it's weird because you know, you can you
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: can idolize, you know, Mick Jagger, you know idolize you know, uh,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: you know Brad Pitt or somebody and and and and
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: did develop these feelings for them, and and then this
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: you know, he lust even you know, uh, for these
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: people that you know, you know from Afar and then
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: sort of you know, they they they would go to
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: the courtroom, and you know it was you know, I mean,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: his groupies so crazy in jail, and it's it's it's
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: it's beyond me. You know, I don't know if i'd
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: be you know.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: It's definitely beyond me. I mean, he's certainly not alone.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Manson had those types of followers as well. It's very strange,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: and I really did appreciate in The Nightstalker in your
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: movie that it really doesn't they don't shy away from
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: sort of this the complexity of the human emotion and
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: experience and the Kit character, who's fictional, but I would
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: guess sort of an amalgamation of several people that she
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: really has to wrestle with her own demons and her
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: own references to almost suggested a strange attraction, but a
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: weird association with terrible things in her life that have happened,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and how he's sort of almost helped her out of them.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Like I really appreciated that about this movie, that it was.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Well a Megan Griffith. Griffith, I mean just just an absolute,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: absolute amazing writer director. I've worked with her a few times.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: She's actually the reason I'm in my new film Gangland, which.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Is Oh, she is oh I didn't.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Ye, She's no, she's the she. She wrote me an
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: email and said, hey, listen, Vincent Greshaw's a very dear
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: friend of mine and they knew each other from the
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: awards circuit, uh, the film festival circuit. She goes, you know,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: he's got this fantastic stript in you're his first choice,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: so automatically I think he's a genius. Uh yeah, and
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: that yeah, that's how I ended up in Gangland. But
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: but the interesting thing about you know, uh Megan script
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: is it's so smart and as you said it it
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: it does not painted black and white picture there there there,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: there's so much nuance there. You know. We wanted you
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to be, you know, fascinated and horrified by by room
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: mirrors at the same time. And and it's that thing,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's you know, they teach tons
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: of psychology classes about it, you know, sex and death,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: you know, can can go hand in hand, you know
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: what I mean. And there is this you know, this
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: fascination with death that you know that turns into this titillating,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know, almost arousing, you know, kind
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: of experience in some people's minds.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: And Another thing that I found very effective and interesting
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: is that it doesn't the movie doesn't. It's we're not
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: simply recreating every crime scene right your you're It puts
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Ramirez behind a table, chained and dying, and it makes
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: the audience spend time actually listening to him. And what
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: do you think about that structure allows us to understand
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: about him that a conventional serial killer movie might not.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, you know, it's it's it's
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: a fictional story one hundred percent. That comes out of
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: the fact that Ramirez had other cases. There were many
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: other cases, and the prosecutor had to not use some
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: of them because they didn't want to muddy the waters.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: They wanted to be able to focus on the ones
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: that could actually prove and that they had evidence for.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: But there were many others, you know, some of them children,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: you know that you know went to his time in
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: the Bay Area and also maybe even in Texas and
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: and and and this was based on that. It's like, Okay,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: what if this is one of those cases where somebody
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: else could be exonerated for a crime they didn't commit
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: that the Ramirez did. And what I love about it
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: is that, you know, it's as you said, the recreations
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: could could become very sort of histrionic and you know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: cinematic and everything else. And and one of the one
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: of one of the strengths I think of Megan's not
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: only uh screenplay, but her direction is a sense of
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: stillness because it forces you to focus on you know, Ramirez.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: And that's that's one of the ways you know that
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I that I had to get into the you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: the character. I mean, first of all, you subjugate yourself
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: entirely to the character, and you try to to become
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: them and not hold him at arms distance and not
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: apologize to the audience for playing this person. And so uh,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: it was, you know, a way to force you to
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: to look into his eyes, a way to force you
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: to listen to what he had to say, and and
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: you know, focus on the on the smallest of his reactions. Uh.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: And and so I knew going into it it was
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: going to be probably one of my most restrained performances ever.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: That it was all like right in here, yes, and
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and and getting getting the voice right and getting you know,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: the reactions and and it's so funny because you look
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: at some of the video footage and he's this kind
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: of you know, monotone guy, and he just, you know,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: he seems to be somewhat bored by everything. And on
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: the first day, on the first day of which is
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: what's so frightening, because you could be talking about the
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: most horrendous thing and talking about you know, ordering lunch.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And on the very first day of filming, we had
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: one of those you know, interview sequences, and Gil had
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: interviewed Ramirez five times, you know, right across from him,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: you know, really you know, just just getting as much
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: information from them as you could. And I remember walking
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: out from the wide shot, the master shot of the
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: first taken Gilt Career, was standing by the monitors and
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: he just went, you nailed him, And that was the
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: highest praise.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, I just got it chilled.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he said it from him, you know, five times.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: It's really what your performance is so chilling. That's why
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: that's the first thing I said to you, because it
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: is really it is very understated and still and that's
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: why in those moments when he freaks out on her
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: towards the very end, it might even be the last
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: see with the two of them. It's so arresting and
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: so jarring, and then you realize if there was any
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: part of you that was sort of like falling into
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: his trap of kind of listening and trying to empathize
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: with him, it just all goes away and you realize,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: oh my god, like, what did I just did I
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: just have a second where I was going to feel
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: bad for this man?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: It gets very strong? Yes, right, right? Oh, it's so wild. Yeah.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So in the character of Kit played by Bellamy Young,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: and when these scenes that we're talking about, she's trying
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: to get him to admit to these two other murders
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: that they firmly believe he has committed, and I think
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: those those were crimes that he was committed for ultimately
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: in real life, the young girl and her mother in
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: San Francisco. But you know, quite quickly she's the one
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: that's supposed to be getting information from him and comes
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: in in this sort of power position, but very quickly
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: he begins to manipulate her, and she, you know, starts
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: questioning her motives and her things. And did that power
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: reversal feel true to what you learned about him?
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent? And you know and once again I
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: mean you know, I yes, I brought a lot to
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: the table, but you know, the feast in many ways
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: was already set you know by me. Uh And and
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I find it so hilarious because uh uh you know,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Bellamy and I you know, went on to be in
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Prodigal Son together and you know, agies.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Like, well, there are no accidents exactly.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: And so we already had that that history and that chemistry,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: and you know, got to be love interests, you know,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and kids, and Richard could not you know, but you know,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: and but you know, I mean Bellemy's a beautiful woman
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: and a sexy woman and and to sort of you know,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: have her come in and she has that kind of
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: rock and roll vibe in the movie, and you know,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: she does skirts and everything else, and it's really you know,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: pressing all of Richard's buttons, you know. And and but
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: but given his you know situation where he's he's shackled
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: and you know to a great extent, you know, a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: forced impotency. You know, he now has to you know,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: use his mind and uses you know wiles to you know,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: get what he would just have taken physically you know previously.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: So so yeah, that that was one of the other
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: really attractive things to play in the films that Cat
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: and Mouse. Yeah, and that that that sense of you know,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: sexual undertone, that that ebbed and flowed, you know, right
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: to the other right.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: It's really the I'm so glad that you've brought up
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Megan Griffiths because it really is expertly directed and that,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you know, and that that stillness and that kind of
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: allowing our discomfort as audience members is so powerful and
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: you don't always get that in movies like this, and
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: it's clear that she is, she's really she does it beautiful.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's a great movie in that way. So
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Ramirez died of cancer on death row in twenty thirteen
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: after more than two decades at San Quince and I
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: think without ever being executed. He never had an execution date.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: So considering the number of death sentences he received, what
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: did you make of the fact that ultimately his life
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: ended in a hospital rather than execution chamber.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he would be disappointed, you know, I think
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: he would have liked to have gone out with much
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: more fan fear as opposed to him you know, whimpering
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: end and you know, and without without a whole lot
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: of you know, notoriety, you know, just just a headline
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: after the fact, you know, Richard Ramiras dies, oh you know,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: tomorrow over you know, executing him gets the lethal injection
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and all that good stuff, because I mean, that's that's
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: that's what he always wanted, that's what he always Craig,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: and I think, you know that was that was also
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: one of the I think motivators, you know, in the character,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: at least in the film. It was just like, oh,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: somebody still cares, somebody, somebody wants to, you know, interview me.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: You know, you know, somebody see me. And so yeah,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I mean there's there's that the very very narcissistic personality
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: that you know, uh uh. And yet it's so funny
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: because for for such a narcissist, for for such you know,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: somebody who so wanted to be a rock star, he
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: was invisible on the street. People, you know, they didn't
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: remember him. He was a non entity.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Well that's so interesting. In the one of the documentaries,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I think the most recent one that I talked about,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: the there's a cold case where they could and I
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: think it might be the young girl and the mother
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: that that you all cover in the movie. They somebody says, oh,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: there's DNA and it's it's Richard Ramirez, and the detectives like,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: who's Richard Ramirez? Like isn't and she didn't. And then
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: you know, the other detective says who is he? Like
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: he is one of the most infaminous, and then she's like, oh,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: but that very idea that someone in law enforcement and
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: deeply embedded in that area could even be like, oh,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I sort of forgot about him, you know, it's kind
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of like their worst nightmare. Probably, yeah. Yeah, So we
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: now have all these documentaries and recordings of Ramirez himself,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: dramatizations and decades of analysis. Is there anything you learned
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: making The night Stalker that you think tends to get
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: lost when people kind of reduce the story to these
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: you know, the mythology.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I mean not you know, between the book and all
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the reporting and everything else, you know, and all the
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: true crime stuff. I think the thing that is most writing,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: that is most overlooked in all the sensationalism is is
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: how really sort of hyper normal it is, you know,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I mean it's you know, you know, you watch him
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: movie and you know the the editing, you know, Ratchets suf,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: the tension and the score makes it, you know, you know, uh,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: uh frightening. This is a guy driving around deciding which
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: house he's going to walk into and kill somebody. And
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: it is so freaking normal. It is so that that's
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: his day, you know, thinking about that, and then I'm
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: gonna go do this, and then when I do this,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: and then I'm gonna disappear, and you know, and and
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: and and uh it's that's what's I think, you know, uh,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: ultimately what's really frightening because and you know, I mean
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Stephen King is so much of his greatest work is
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: about the banality of evil, you know, and and uh
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: how how you know? It doesn't come with bells and whistles.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: It's it's just silently, quietly happens. And and and that
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: that I think is what's frightening for for so many people,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: you know. And and today we we we find this phenomenon.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Uh and and you know mass shooters. You know, you
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: look at these guys and you go, oh, you so quiet.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: You know, Oh, I didn't know he was you know,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, Yes, walk around Rambo, you know.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: And and when it happens in a mall or when
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: it happens in a school or a church or anyplace else.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: You know, a rock concert, you know, a country concert.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: You know, it's it's like you you can't see it coming.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: And that's what's so frightening about it. And you know,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: most most people you know are aren't you know, overwhelmed
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: every single day worrying that they're randomly going to be killed,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you know. Uh. And and so when you look at
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: this in a nutshell, when you condense the story and
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: you look at it and go, oh my god, that's
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: so frightening. It's like, well, you know, not a single
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: one of these victims could have ever you know, seen
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: it coming, right.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: That's the terrifying thing, except it, Yeah, that's it. You
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: know what do we go through our lives worrying about
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: it all the time or doing you know, this is
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: like the.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yep.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Well I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed talking with you yourself.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: You've got such a good you have such good mojo.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Like you do.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: You're just like a good you have like such nice
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: open sort of like good energy.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I love it. It's so funny because a lot of
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: people say, oh my gosh, it was it hard to
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: lick all that characters. No, I'm nothing like him. I
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: was acting.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I was let him go.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was easy, you know, didn't have to worry
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: about coming home and you know, cooking with sharp knives, right,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: it was gonna be okay. It was. It was, you know.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: And there have been a number of roles over the
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: years where where I have used my theater training and
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: built a character from the bottom up who is absolutely
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: nothing like me, you know, and this was one of them.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: You know, where what what are the externals? What are
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: the internals? What? It was the thought process? What is
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: all of this that I need to acquire and then
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: and then embrace to to to make it happen? You know? Uh?
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: And and so uh, you know, I'm eternal. It's it's
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite performances. Uh, which is strange to
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: say because it's so you know, terrifying, but you know,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: It was a great exercise in acting. Yeah.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Well it's a it's a very powerful movie. It's called
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: The Night Stalker. Lou I really really appreciate your time,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: and as I said, you're a lovely soul and a
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: brilliant actor, And thank you for talking with me.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you, I appreciate you. Thank you so much.