Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 5 – Ben Cachiaras | The Preaching Event
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Ben Kacharis, welcome back to the Better Preaching Podcast. Ben Cachiaras: Thank you, Frank. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, the last time we talked about your call to ministry and preaching. And this time I really want us to dig into your sermon writing process, your process for writing and delivering sermons. I believe that better preaching requires both better preparation and better delivery. So let me ask you, let's just start with this. Do you have a preference? Do you prefer preparing the sermon or delivering it? Ben Cachiaras: wow. I that's such a great question, Dr. Weller. I I think both are are really distinct. And I gotta tell you, I l I absolutely love both parts of each, and I would have a terrible time deciding. And I know that some pastors and preachers probably say, I love the prep, but the delivery's not so much and the other way around. For me, there's different things. I'll tell you what they are. the preparation process I have grown to enjoy more. The older I get. And I don't know why all the reasons for that. I just think this the fear that, you know, you I've moved from I gotta, I gotta say something. I've moved from that to I have something to say. And there's there's the there's a big difference. And so when you're just like, my gosh, I have to stand up and fill the time, I used to literally worry that I I would run out of clock before I ran out of things to say. So that's not my problem anymore. Dr. Frank Weller: yeah. Ben Cachiaras: And so I think I think that that fear factor is gone and so the preparation is enjoyable and exciting and ex full filled with expectancy. And I'll tell you, my I have so many profound moments where you're wrestling and it's hard and it's difficult or you can't get the thing, and then it's there and the spirit speaks, the word jumps off the page, and you're right in your Bible, you're you've read it a hundred times that same passage, but now it's clear how. what the word is that needs to get communicated to the people and how it speaks to you first. I'll tell you that all my tears are in the study. that's where I encounter I so I love, I love the preparation process. I have a lot of like yelling matches and I'm sure my wife wonders what's going on. My dog down at my feet, my wife hearing what's going on in there. But that's but I I gotta tell you, I love the preaching event. And I use that word do you remember John Claypool? Did you ever hear that name? Dr. Frank Weller: I do. Yes. Ben Cachiaras: So he had that book. I read it in college. I read it in Bible college called The Preaching Event. And it changed the way I thought about preaching as this experiential moment where God shows up through the spoken word. And I I gotta tell you, I love that. I love the energy that happens in a room and and seeing people engage and feeling the sense of spirit's movement and conviction. So I would I would not be able to prioritize those. I love them both for different reasons. And I I'll tell you one last thing. I I really, I really believe preaching is sacramental, you know, if we can use that word. small S, you know, sacrament, but sa sacrament's really just something where something ordinary is where the extraordinary happens, or something ordinary that or human through through whom the f the the spiritual comes. The divine shows up through ordinary means and water can become Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Ben Cachiaras: a s a watery grave and create b a baptism moment and ordinary bread and juice can can become the the very meeting with the living Christ. And through ordinary words on a page in my notes, out of my mouth, ordinary person in an ordinary room, as preachers we just know that something bigger happens. And I love that. So I would have a hard time choosing preparation over that, but also the preparation is I don't I think I'm a better Christian because I'm a preacher. I I I just know I get so much more time in the Word than I probably would as a just my own self-discipline. And I've never bought into this thing that you gotta have your separate Bible study over here. I I of course you should, but man, if you're not being fed by your sermon prep and and the Lord isn't speaking to you, those aren't distinct things. That is my devotional life. And that's where you're preaching out of the overflow. Dr. Frank Weller: Yes. Ben Cachiaras: You know, where what happens in the study you can't wait to step into the pulpit and say, This is what I think this is saying to us. So I I love both and I I would have a hard time prioritizing those, but for different reasons. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I agree, Ben, because really both of those spaces are holy ground. And I like your your portrayal as sacrament. It reminds me a little bit of Moses. He goes into the tabernacle to meet with the Lord to get a word from the Lord. But then he comes out of the tabernacle and he delivers that word to the people. And both of those are sacred events. Certainly being with the Lord to get the word, but then to be able to communicate that to the people can't be overlooked as a sacramental experience either. Ben Cachiaras: Yeah not. Right. Yeah. Both God shows up both you know, we always kinda emphasize, well, the spirit showed up in the in the worship service or whatever, but you know, we this the what's exciting to me is that I have the privilege of being there when the spirit shows up in the preparation process and gives me insight that is not my own. The word speaks yeah, that's that's cool too. You're right. Both are both are Dr. Frank Weller: What do you mean when what do you mean when you say that there the tears come in the preparation process? Can you explain that a little more? Ben Cachiaras: Some of it's probably very just fleshly in the sense that I'm afraid I'm not going to come up with something really good to say. And then it's like, boom, the word of God, something about a word, your study pays off, and it's like, my gosh, that's so convicting, or that's so powerful. I see it now, or I I've got all this mess of ideas on a page and in my head, and the spirit sort of sifts them into order, and they lock into place, and you go, that's how I can tell it. And it just it it makes me weep. I practically getting emotional telling about it because it happens over and over again. It's some weird confluence of years of experience, your own giftedness, but then the Holy Spirit just showing up and saying, okay, you've wrestled enough. I'm gonna give you a nudge. And here's how this thing's gonna come together. And I I I love that process. It's it's it's it's beautiful because you know it's more than just your own brain at work. And the Holy Spirit, but he seems like he wants you to sweat a while and that's what makes it beautiful. And it's just sometimes I'm just just thrilled to be a part of it. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: I when I taught homiletics, I used to refer to that as Eureka sermon preparation. Because you you you go in the room or or you do the seat work, you gotta put gotta put your bottom in the seat and you're doing the work and you're reading and you're contemplating and you're thinking and you're okay, this commentary says that, and you're pulling together all the resources, and it's almost like you're dumping it into a pot, this cauldron, right, and you're applying heat, and then it begins to bubble up and all of a sudden. Ben Cachiaras: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Th there it is. That's what it is. And that's that Holy Spirit nudge that you're talking about that it it just it it feels like it can take forever, but when it comes, it comes like lightning, doesn't it? Ben Cachiaras: It does. It's a eureka it's the epiphany, right? And it's like, don't if there's any young preachers listening, and I hope there are, don't be mistaken. It d when he says it comes quickly, it comes quickly all of a sudden after a long time. Yeah. But Right. Exactly. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right, exactly. Yeah. That guy was an instant success after 20 years. Yeah, suddenly maybe is the better term. Not quickly, but suddenly. Ben Cachiaras: Yes. All at once, all of a sudden, after a long time. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. But and and there's a sense in which getting to that point though is really work. I mean, preaching is work both in the study and in the pulpit. Ben Cachiaras: Yes. I think that's where you mentioned tears and I'm I you know, I just I think that's why there's tears. It's like for the same reason you might weep with joy after f completing your first marathon or, you know, f you know, finally doing something that was really hard. It took a long time. There's always, you know, the greater the grit, the greater the joy at the end of it. And I think sermon writing and preparing is hard work and to you know, if you've ever had to stand up and feel unprepared before a congregation, it's a horrible feeling. So when you get that, this'll work, that's why you get excited and and that I just appreciate the spirit gifting. I wish he would show up a little sooner sometimes. but yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Ben, what do you do when you get stuck and it just it feels like maybe the message isn't coming together or you know, it you're wrestling with God on a on a topic or a subject or a text and it's just not coming together. Is it what do you do when that happens? Ben Cachiaras: That's a great question. you know, in the older earlier times of my ministry, sadly, many times that was late at night on a Saturday night and there was no one to call, nothing to do. You know, you're not gonna like s pick up a new book and start reading and and hopefully, you know. And so that's where you know, we just kind of gut it out and hope for the best at it almost in isolation. I would not recommend that. But I I think still the Lord is gracious in those situations. But starting earlier has created a situation where I have that situation less. Where if I du where it does happen, I have time to step back, breathe, and just leave it and come back to it. And and and very often stepping away and coming back somehow clears the air. I I can't tell you the number of times that I've gotten stuck, gone to bed, and gotten up and it was all resorted in my brain. It's like, I don't know how that works neurologically or spirit-wise, but you, you know, a jumble of almost their things can sort of sort themselves in your sleep. A sanctified sleep is is one thing. I like to I like to bounce things out verbally. I have found that when I try to start talking through the sermon, somehow that helps my brain. get unstuck. So I've got notes on a page. I've got lines and arrows and and things. I can't figure out what my key phrase is or whatever it is. If I try to tell my wife in three sentences what this sermon is actually about, all of a sudden it forces my brain to go into that communicator mode, the or the clarity mode that I sometimes need. So that's that's another really helpful method is to change from get get get your head off of the the page, get your nose out of notes and and expository remarks and do I use this or that? And say, wait a second, if I had to tweet this sermon right now, or if I want to think in my head about what a 14-year-old is going to tell his parent as they drive out of the church parking lot, hey, what was the sermon about? Or what did you like about the sermon? And what do I hope that they will say? usually, you know, you've got to have some clarity around that. And if I can get that, then everything else tends to fall. So those are some of my go-tos is like verbalizing, step away. you know, sometimes I'll I'll I'll Google some stuff too. It's just like you know Google a random idea or an article that just somehow starts framing up something similar and all of a sudden it triggers an idea and you got it. So Dr. Frank Weller: But you're right. I think ki timing is the key. If you're trying to do that on a Saturday night, Friday night, there's this this rising sense of panic internally, isn't there? Because it's just the clock's ticking and you know Sunday's coming and it's a stressful situation. So you gotta get out in front of it. Ben Cachiaras: Yeah, yeah. Well, and and getting out in front of it has never been easy for me. I I have taught myself to work on some of the extra adrenaline that fuels in when you know I've gotta get it done now. And so it's an art of of using that for your advantage, but just moving that up in the calendar a little bit rather than just literally last minute. I tend to write right up until the last minute no matter what. I d I I'm like tweaking and messing. I can't I'm not one of these guys that's ever been done. I'm done with my sermon two weeks ahead. To me it's not done 'til I preach it. So I'm always kind of wondering about it and thinking and tweaking up until, you know, the day of for s for sure. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that sounds like Billy Strother. He used to say, I'm I'm sitting on the front row while everybody's singing hymns and I'm finishing my sermon. Ben Cachiaras: Yeah, even though he's got a manuscript in his pocket. I loved working with Billy at some preaching things, and I witnessed him do it, you know, pull literally pull out and write something in the margin. I've done the same. And but sometimes it's again the difference between the study and the preaching moment are different. You're not, you know, we're taught to write papers in our classes, but standing up and reading a paper is not a sermon. It's a it's a living thing. It's an event. Then you are entering into it. It says Phillips Brooks' definition of preaching. w as we know is our my favorite truth through personality. So you're bringing your very being to it. And that's different than w you know, working out a clever three points in a in your study the night before. So yeah, I I think it it's okay to have that special extra bit that's added in the moment. Dr. Frank Weller: when we come back after just a moment, Ben, I want to talk with you about just your commitment to improving the craft of preaching. But now's a good time to pause and thank our sponsor. Great Lakes Christian College is offering a Master of Arts and Practical Theology program where you can learn at a flexible, convenient pace without sacrificing community. You get real instructional support. This is not a degree mill. It's more face-to-face and less busy work. GLCC is focused on helping you serve the church. and your community now and in the future. So if you're ready to answer God's call to ministry, go to glcc.edu and get more details. Ben, you're always working to improve your craft. And for you, I I think at least that that's meant moving the pulpit off the stage. I'm just interested to hear how that works for you. Ben Cachiaras: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you you have observed that correctly. so maybe if I just back up a little bit. When I first started preaching, I had some loose notes written by hand way back in the eighties. Then I realized one of my mentors said, You need to be more precise, and I started to type things. I went to a church where, boy, every I I went I needed to watch my P's and Q's. There was a lot of theological education in the church. And so I began to reuse a manuscript. And so then I realized they were looking at the top of my head so much of that sermon. And it was occasionally looking up when I thought I could because I I felt glued. So then the next phase of my emergence or evol evolution, I guess, was saying, I need to know this better so that I'm I can do more of this and only bounce down. You know, all the things that we wrestle with with written notes and Dr. Frank Weller: Okay, let me pause let me pause you right there because I just want to point out something that's true of you, that's been true of every preacher I've ever known, including the ones we've talked to on the on the podcast. There's an evolution, isn't there? I mean, you change over time, and that's okay. You're not gonna find your voice in the first few months of your preaching career. It it's changed over time. I mean, I started with a full manuscript, and where I'm at now, twenty-five years later, is completely different. So Ben Cachiaras: Yes. Dr. Frank Weller: For for these younger preachers who are like, Boy, what do I they're not gonna start out where you're at right now, Ben. Ben Cachiaras: Right. And and I think the aud the the audience, the congregation, I'm a big fan of of of living in a community, staying there, preaching it with these sustained, durable relationships, so you begin to understand them. And that begins to shape how you preach too, you know. And that that's what changed for me is I I began to sense I want to talk to these people more than read my paper to them. And so I s that that's when I realized, wait a second, this illustration. If I just cheat by looking at the first sentence, that'll get me all I know this story. And now I'm just gonna make a red mark at the bottom of that story because I know the story and I'm just gonna look at the red mark, that'll remind me of my punchline. But for the next minute and a half, I've got eye contact. And then the next thing was I evolved like I'm gonna get out from behind this big wooden pulpit and I'm gonna just gonna I just felt instinctively like I wanted to be Less barriers. And so that evolution eventually led me to where at Mountain Now, where I've been for nearly 30 years, kind of shrinking the pulpit in in size. I liked it originally because it was bulky and it stood for the word of God, like John Calvin, mount the pulpit stairs, but it became an obstruction, I think, in the in the aura that we were preaching in. And so I wanted to get out from behind it. So I did and and began to kind of step to the side for a while. I used the table. And I began to try to memorize bigger chunks, not just the stories and the jokes, but bigger chunks. And I still am a manuscript guy, but nobody knows it. People are usually surprised when they hear that because it's like, I thought you were just talking to us. So the last thing I did about two or three years ago is I figured out how to rig up a very simple, actually I didn't. All all the smart people around me did, figured out how to rig up a very simple teleprompter system. And it's very easy to do now. With and I I think COVID kind of forced all of us to sort of learn some of that technology. We were doing lots of videos, but if some of it was complicated and didn't want to be looking down and up at the camera, so we figured out how to use like, you know, things on our phones and and other things that could help us with some notes. And that that was a really good step for me to improve my craft. I felt like I was now able to step out completely from behind the pulpit and just In a disarming way, engage more openly and person to person. I'm still reading notes, but nobody knows it because they're just there as a prompt for me to communicate heart to heart. So if you were to watch a a mountaincc.org sermon today of me, it would just look like I'm standing there. You might notice in my hand I've got a tiny little clicker. And that's my way of advancing my teleprompter notes, and it is a manuscript. But it is typed out in a different way with more spaces, shorter sentences, and less long paragraphs and and simple TV screens so that I can look at people. in the same way that I would look at my notes and and try to then come up and get eye contact. Now I can get eye contact and look at my screen, but it it almost looks, you know. So that has helped me think more about communicating directly with people without any impingement. When I am looking at a communicator on stage, there's something disarming about someone who just, you know, I listened to a sermon last weekend from Mike Bro. He comes out with his aweshocks, hands in his pockets. Hey, you guys, you know, and he starts, but Mike is brilliant and he's such a gifted communicator. He's doing the same thing I'm doing. He's reading a manuscript and someone is advancing it for him. And he's just reading it. And that's what all of our communicators at Mountain do now. And and we love it. And do a few people notice that it's coming off a screen? Yeah. But do a peop people notice that you're turning pages? Sure. Yeah. But they don't care. You know, so it's not worse than it's nothing disingenuous about it. And I think it has helped me emphasize the part of really communicating directly with people without any barrier between us. And and I think it's more possible to lock in. And there's a good number of people watching online as well. So and we have campuses, so I think me my ability to look right at the camera is a is a way of me looking right at you. And and there's nothing to apologize about that, I don't think. Dr. Frank Weller: Mike Bro is he's incredible. I gotta get him on the podcast. I I answered the call to ministry at a Mike Bro sermon. So yeah. I was at it was a CIY conference, and Mike ended the, you know, occasionally he would sing in a sermon, and the song was called How Could You Say No? And Ben Cachiaras: I love that. I love that. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's when I felt God tugging on my heart to become a pastor and that's when I said, Okay, I'm not gonna say no. So Mike's Mike, I don't even know if he knows that, but played a kind of formative role in in my faith development. So yeah, I gotta I I g Ben Cachiaras: That's awesome. Mike's gonna be the closing speaker at Spire conference this year, just to bless pastors and call pastors out like he did you so many years ago. Dr. Frank Weller: great. Well I'll see him there then. So I I I'm looking forward to spiring. Yeah. Yeah, terrific. I will. Hey, you use something at Mountain called a T dock. I thought that was interesting. can you walk our listeners through what that is and how it might be a good resource for other preachers to steal? Ben Cachiaras: Yeah. Tell a story. Yeah. Sure. yeah, we have found putting a few documents together has kind of helped guide us. We've got one, for example, it's a lectionary. It's our our guide of the kinds of things that we want to include in a eighteen month cycle of preaching. So that's one doc. It's the other, and I can share that too if you're interested. It's like, you know, we need Old Testament, New Testament, we need Paul, we need prophets, we need, you know, we need Jesus, we need gospels and we need stuff on sex and money. So that's one document. The other document you're referring to, the T doc, it's the letter T. I don't have one in front of me, so I'll probably forget some of these things, but it's a way of forcing the preacher to communicate clearly what a series and particular messages are about in a way that also allows the rest of a church team to understand and begin with their advanced planning. So you don't need something like this if you don't care. if small groups don't care, but we have discovered that, you know, when we can align with small groups and have them studying the same thing I'm preaching, that's a huge win discipleship wise. So many of our groups follow sermons. Well if they're gonna do that, they need to know way ahead of time how they're gonna guide those groups and meet with those leaders. They're meeting mu you know, weeks and months sometimes ahead of time. So we need a T Doc. If you want you know, your worship people to really have clarity around what song fits here. They've gotta have an understanding of what do you mean what are you trying to do with this sermon and where does this text leading? So the T's are as follows. I think it starts with the time, like what's the date of this sermon or series. the another T is the the key, the title. this is you know Hot mess holy God is what we called our book, book of Leviticus, you know. So it's we're going to call it Hot Mess Holy God, or we're doing one in Revelation, calling the man behind the curtain, you know, Revelation of Jesus Christ. So that's the that so then the next one is the text. Where is this anchored biblically? You might use a variety of biblical texts, but where's the chief, you know, expository landing place or or thrust for this sermon? And then the theme, like theologically. How does this, what is this about? This is, is it about salvation? Is it about sanctification? Is it about repentance? Is it about what what is the theological? That's another T actually, the theological concept that that that so theme is one short word. It's about it's about God's love. It's about you know, decision for Christ. But theological theme allows you to just say a little bit more, like this is this is This is this is a kick in the shorts or it's a pat on the back? Are we afflicting the comfortable or comfortably inflicted? So what's the theological direction here? And then one of the really important ones is the T for takeaway. Like if in one sentence, what are we hoping people walk away with? that that they would say, you know, I I I I you know, every sermon should drive towards something you are being asked and compelled to. by this message to think, feel, or do? Or some combination of those. And our takeaway is an answer to that question. What are we hoping people think, feel, or do? And and to be as specific as possible is a great gift to the preacher, but also to everyone else who's trying to figure out what to do with this sermon as well. So those are some of the T's. I think I'm probably forgetting a couple, or the talker, like who's the preacher? So the text, the talker, the time Dr. Frank Weller: Yep. Ben Cachiaras: you know, the theme, the theological stuff, and the takeaway are some of the main T's. And when you get that on a document for a series and then each week, it really does clarify what what where we're going so we have unity and understanding. But it also is a place now for other people to collaborate and to be able to give their input and say, I've got an idea for, you know, some of There's another one. I forget what the T is is, but it's it's basically it's it's a place for other ideas, like w you know, what's an illustration here or what's a what's an idea or something that would match with this. I forget what the T is. I don't have the document open, but that's Dr. Frank Weller: Well, here's what I'll do, Ben. I'm gonna we we have we host a blog at betterpreaching.org. And I'll I'll make the blog post that accompanies this this episode about your T Doc. That way listeners can go there and check those out. I'm sure you don't mind people using because really it's about being intentional so that all of the team comes together because as you say, it's a ser it's an event. And you and you really wanna be intentional about bringing all those pieces together. Ben Cachiaras: Okay. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: In a moment, I want to ask you, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw you a curveball, so I want to give you a little time to think about it. What are some innovations that you've tried and you said, yeah, I'm never doing that again? so but while you're thinking about that, maybe you don't have any, but but while one more time, I just want to mention our sponsor. The Better Preaching Podcast is powered by Great Lakes Christian College, where we're passionate about training the next generation of preachers, youth ministers, worship leaders. and missionaries. That's why our professors aren't just in the classroom Monday through Friday. They're actively engaged in ministries on Sundays too. So if you want an education that combines the best classroom with real life ministry experience, you can get more information at GLCC dot EDU. So Ben, is there something you tried and you're just like, yeah, that was awful. I'm never doing that again. Ben Cachiaras: Gosh, nothing huge is popping into my mind. I I think if you were to ask people on our team at the mountain staff, they'd be like, they would have a bunch of examples that I my mind has conveniently skipped over, I guess. But you know, I I for a while I thought, you know, maybe this conversational thing is a way to go. I'm gonna sit at a table. I did that a couple of weeks and I just felt like the urgency of what I wanted to share. Dr. Frank Weller: Ha ha ha. Ben Cachiaras: w did not fit with sitting casually at a table with a cup of coffee. So that was one thing for me that doesn't fit with the urgency of proclamation. I think you look at, you know, in our society when you've got something important to say, you you stand up and you get in front of people and I wanted more energy. So that's one that comes to mind. I think I went through Dr. Frank Weller: I guess what I'm driving at is we we shouldn't be afraid to take risks, right? Not everything's gonna work. That's okay. Ben Cachiaras: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. And that and a hundred percent. I I think for a while I used way too many slides, you know, like I wanna have every slide for every single thing. I but but you know, all the all the things you try, I think keep you sharp, keep people kind of like engaged. We don't wanna get in a rut. so I I'm an advocate of trying it, even if you do fail. I don't know that I have a bunch of about I don't have a sharp example right now. I I know in the show notes someone from my team is gonna see this and say, you could have mentioned I've had some. I'll tell you one funny one real quick. I I I've I've worked with a number of live animals, and we were doing a Mother's Day thing and it was the the on eagle's wings, and I had this guy who had this bird up in the balcony, and it was supposed to come down and it worked great first service because he had this food and swooped down over the people, landed on them and It was a great visual of you know being born up on Eagles Wing. It worked great second service. Third service, the bird was apparently not hungry anymore. So he had the food and the bird just wouldn't come. And then it came and it swooped all around the people and landed on a chandelier and then pooped on some people. And it was the last time I had a live bird. So that that was not you know, innovation is not always great. I had a goat one time that dragged my daughter y around a little bit. So yeah, we've had some we've had some problems, but I don't have any others than that, I guess. Dr. Frank Weller: no. that's fantastic. An eagle on the chandelier. That needs to be on a t shirt. hey, we got one minute left. If you knew this moment right now was your last chance to say something about preaching to preachers, what would you say? Ben Cachiaras: that was a disaster. Trust that you don't have to make the Bible interesting and relevant. It is and it stands and let it speak to you and preach out of that overflow. If you forgive me one thing, that might be it. Yeah. I think we've we've worked so hard to try to make the Bible relevant. We've forgotten what we've got to do is figure out how to have people understand their lives are what's becoming irrelevant. The word of God is not irrelevant. So yeah, the gap between people need to see that their lives are what's becoming irrelevant. And people are hungry for meaning and purpose and value and you know, direction in life for hope and lasting. peace. The scriptures hold the key to to connecting with the living Christ. And that's the hope of the world. Preach it. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, that's it. We're out of time. I want to thank you, Ben. Appreciate you. I want to thank our sponsor of Great Lakes Christian College. I want to thank our Better Preaching Podcast listeners for supporting the podcast. Join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.