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Book Club: Sisters in Spirit · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane
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Speaker 1: Never Told You production of iHeart Radio, and welcome to
0:19
Speaker 1: another edition of them in this book club. Ya, it's
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Speaker 1: our first for the year, right, it is. It is.
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Speaker 1: We're starting out very strong in our pick. I think personally,
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Speaker 1: what do you think, Itty? I agree? I think this
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Speaker 1: was a This was a great pick and it was
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Speaker 1: like just so educational and it it really devetailed well
0:39
Speaker 1: with the things we had been talking about the end.
0:42
Speaker 1: So it's true. It's true. Yeah, as in fact last year,
0:45
Speaker 1: as in about a month ago, someone to use this
0:48
Speaker 1: term on me, not too long ago, and it made
0:50
Speaker 1: me go, what, why would you say it that way?
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Speaker 1: That's all misleading. Anyway, We did an amazing interview with
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Speaker 1: god to Junior Fox where we talked about her documentary
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Speaker 1: With Out a Whisper, which followed the holding a Shawnee
1:03
Speaker 1: Clan uh and their history and their role in the
1:05
Speaker 1: Suffragette movement. Um Dr Sally Roche Wagner has been researching
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Speaker 1: and documenting the history for years now and was a
1:12
Speaker 1: part of that conversation with the Mohawk Clan mother at
1:15
Speaker 1: the time. If you haven't seen that documentary. Please go
1:18
Speaker 1: check it out. It's an amazing educational opportunity as well
1:22
Speaker 1: as if your teachers or someone who wants to educate
1:24
Speaker 1: younger generations, this is a must watch. Um and. Dr
1:28
Speaker 1: Wagner was one of the first to be awarded where
1:31
Speaker 1: the doctorate for her work in women's studies, and was
1:34
Speaker 1: also one of the first to found a college level
1:36
Speaker 1: women's study program in the United States, so she is significant.
1:41
Speaker 1: With fifty one years of teaching a women's studies, Dr
1:44
Speaker 1: Wagner has become one of the most active and overall
1:47
Speaker 1: authority of the history of women's studies in this country,
1:50
Speaker 1: so that's something to know. Um. And she has published
1:53
Speaker 1: numerous books on the subject of women's studies and the
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Speaker 1: history of the suffragette movement, including the book we Are
2:00
Speaker 1: Featuring today a which is titled Sisters in Spirit Holding
2:05
Speaker 1: a Shawnee Iroquois. We're gonna put that in parentheses, uh,
2:09
Speaker 1: influence on early American Feminists, which published in two thousand one.
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Speaker 1: So yes, this is kind of an older book, um,
2:16
Speaker 1: but still significant to read. She also recently wrote The
2:20
Speaker 1: Women's Suffrage Movement, which looks at the Suffragette movement through
2:23
Speaker 1: a new intersectional lens, which we love and I'm sure
2:27
Speaker 1: we'll tackle that soon enough as well. And here's a
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Speaker 1: bit of information written in a Sisters in Spirit of
2:33
Speaker 1: some of Dr Wagner's work. Quote. The theme of for
2:36
Speaker 1: our work has been telling the untold stories. The exhibit
2:39
Speaker 1: in her monograph of the same name, She who Holds
2:42
Speaker 1: the Sky, Matilda Jocelyn Gage reveals the stuffer just written
2:45
Speaker 1: out of history because of her stay against the religious
2:48
Speaker 1: right one years ago, while her traveling exhibit in Women's
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Speaker 1: Rights National Historic Part Curriculum, Sisters in Spirit documents the
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Speaker 1: influence of the Hoddeda Shawnee women on early women's right activists.
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Speaker 1: So there you go. And again we talked about this
3:02
Speaker 1: and the significance, but we're gonna talk a little more
3:04
Speaker 1: in depth with this book. And like many of the
3:06
Speaker 1: books we have covered, uh, for this segment, this is
3:10
Speaker 1: very quote heavy because of course they do they explaining
3:13
Speaker 1: in the book, so we're just going to talk about it. Um.
3:16
Speaker 1: So we wanted to take some time to talk of
3:18
Speaker 1: the history and the themes with a discussion around the
3:21
Speaker 1: quotes from the book. So instead of doing like we're
3:23
Speaker 1: gonna talk about the book and then do themes. We're
3:25
Speaker 1: gonna do themes and quotes all at the same time
3:28
Speaker 1: to cover the entirety of the book, which is very
3:30
Speaker 1: short by the way, so again this is like an
3:32
Speaker 1: hour and a half two hour read. Yeah, m Let's
3:35
Speaker 1: begin with the introduction, which was written by Jeane Shenandoah
3:38
Speaker 1: of the Onondaga Nation. In the intro, we are asked
3:41
Speaker 1: to open our minds and our eyes to learn things
3:43
Speaker 1: we may have quote never thought about. Shenandoah writes, we
3:46
Speaker 1: hope that the messages inside will help to open your
3:48
Speaker 1: eyes and ears to things you may have never realized
3:51
Speaker 1: or even thought about, since this type of information has
3:54
Speaker 1: been withheld in the education of all the people, and
3:57
Speaker 1: goes on to talk about the history of the hot
3:58
Speaker 1: and shining quote. We huddn't Shannie live within the traditional
4:02
Speaker 1: structure that we've always had, the structure of equality among
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Speaker 1: all members of our community. Women, men, and children have
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Speaker 1: equal spiritual, human and political rights. We have equal opportunity
4:12
Speaker 1: to voice opinions or objections to any situation within our community,
4:15
Speaker 1: and we know that our voice will be heard. And
4:18
Speaker 1: with that, she continues, read this book and learn from it.
4:22
Speaker 1: It helps you to realize what women have gone through
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Speaker 1: to make a stand for their rightful equal place on earth. Yeah,
4:28
Speaker 1: so it's pretty good start. I think it's a great start.
4:31
Speaker 1: So the book begins with a question that should be
4:33
Speaker 1: asked for all of our historical understanding, quote, who gets
4:37
Speaker 1: to be part of history? Um, we have to acknowledge
4:40
Speaker 1: our lack of knowledge and lack of education when it
4:43
Speaker 1: comes to the complete history, and be wary of who
4:45
Speaker 1: is teaching it. Dr Dr Wagner rights, Uh, we Euro Americans,
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Speaker 1: you white people annie to see you are filled with
4:53
Speaker 1: the poison of misinformation. Great gaps of knowledge accompany the lies.
4:57
Speaker 1: Oh missions teach us equally and more viously the misinformation.
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Speaker 1: The lesson of exclusion is clear. Groups of people included
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Speaker 1: in the interpretation of history are respected, while excluded groups
5:08
Speaker 1: are outsiders and can easily be ignored. If our teachers
5:11
Speaker 1: do not tell us about a group of people, we
5:13
Speaker 1: assume they are unimportant. And oh my god, that's so
5:19
Speaker 1: right on. And we've talked about this with the complete
5:21
Speaker 1: lack of transparency when it comes to education. I think
5:26
Speaker 1: it's a huge subject. Now. I can't believe you wrote
5:28
Speaker 1: this in two thousand one and it hits right on
5:30
Speaker 1: the head today. Yeah, because it's such a huge topic
5:34
Speaker 1: of debate um right now, and it's one of those
5:38
Speaker 1: political issues that people use to get um their constituents
5:42
Speaker 1: fired up. Uh, and it's very misunderstood. But yeah, it's
5:47
Speaker 1: just it's what we learned is so much like white centric,
5:53
Speaker 1: very male centric. It's not until you get out of college,
5:56
Speaker 1: and even then that you you kind of are like, oh,
5:59
Speaker 1: these things that would have been taught from the beginning
6:03
Speaker 1: right there, right, and and the fact and we know
6:06
Speaker 1: she has been a Dr Wagner has been working on
6:08
Speaker 1: this for a long time. This is a twenty two
6:10
Speaker 1: year old book, um, and I'm just learning about it
6:15
Speaker 1: this past year to this year, Like, that's horrific to me.
6:20
Speaker 1: I cannot believe it took us this long. And then
6:21
Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show the constant erasure of
6:25
Speaker 1: marginalized people in history and why it's important that we
6:29
Speaker 1: make sure we keep talking about it and that other
6:31
Speaker 1: people are educated. So it just it's one of those
6:35
Speaker 1: things that it hasn't changed centuries upon centuries, but we
6:40
Speaker 1: do have people like Dr Wagner who still talk about it,
6:43
Speaker 1: who still pushed it forward because she's been talking about
6:45
Speaker 1: it for the past twenty three years, if not longer,
6:48
Speaker 1: So that's amazing to see. Um. And yeah, we have
6:51
Speaker 1: to acknowledge the reason for the lack of truth and
6:53
Speaker 1: information has to do with racism. She writes, the message
6:57
Speaker 1: of a mission is an educational foundation of racism. Through
7:01
Speaker 1: the silence in our education, many of us have learned
7:04
Speaker 1: not to listen to the histories of people of color,
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Speaker 1: women and other excluded groups. And yeah, like she just
7:10
Speaker 1: puts up lately, this is racist. This is an absolute
7:12
Speaker 1: racist take on history because it's been whitewashed. Yeah. Yeah,
7:19
Speaker 1: And I bet for a lot of people who as
7:22
Speaker 1: always we hope you go read these books after we
7:24
Speaker 1: see can we talk about them? But I bet for
7:27
Speaker 1: a lot of you this will be new. A lot
7:29
Speaker 1: of it was new for us. We're like kind of
7:32
Speaker 1: in this field, so right, right, And the fact that
7:35
Speaker 1: I have not heard this being addressed, I don't think
7:37
Speaker 1: I've ever heard this being addressed except for small groups
7:41
Speaker 1: of people, I feel like, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
7:58
Speaker 1: And even deeper into the telling of the history, we
8:00
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge the failability of the teachers, but also
8:03
Speaker 1: the fluidity of history. Dr Wagner rights, There's nothing inherent
8:07
Speaker 1: or inevitable about history created by people. It is shaped
8:10
Speaker 1: by the same socio political economic forces that determine the
8:14
Speaker 1: telling of it. History changes like institutions when people demand change.
8:19
Speaker 1: As excluded groups see conclusion and institutions. They also celebrate
8:23
Speaker 1: their histories, demanding to be remembered. United States history has
8:27
Speaker 1: gone through phases in the last fifty years, reflecting cultural
8:30
Speaker 1: and social shifts towards greater inclusion and diversity. Right. I
8:35
Speaker 1: hope we come back to that because I feel like
8:38
Speaker 1: this is so cyclical um and where we are today,
8:42
Speaker 1: and of course we know the backtracking that I guess
8:47
Speaker 1: the political shift more so that has happened recently, including
8:50
Speaker 1: attacking Native and Indigenous laws that were placed to protect
8:55
Speaker 1: but also to acknowledge the wrongs that have happened to
8:58
Speaker 1: them by the colony zation that continues to happen. Let's
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Speaker 1: be honest, and I hope that this continues bigger and bigger,
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Speaker 1: because we are going to have this conversation and we're
9:07
Speaker 1: not gonna stop having this conversation. We don't know what's
9:09
Speaker 1: happening in schools. We don't know what's happening around us
9:12
Speaker 1: right now all the time. Um, we hear all the
9:15
Speaker 1: bad news. I hear all the bad news, but even
9:17
Speaker 1: talking to some teachers are like, we haven't had a
9:19
Speaker 1: pushback like that yet. But doesn't mean it's not coming
9:22
Speaker 1: around necessarily or that it's not happening elsewhere. So I'm
9:26
Speaker 1: hoping that it is just more of a shift of
9:29
Speaker 1: the the people who are just talking the loudest, and
9:32
Speaker 1: that this information is going to get out more and
9:35
Speaker 1: more because I think more especially the younger generations are wonderful.
9:38
Speaker 1: They're seeking for more information like this. Yeah, yeah, And
9:42
Speaker 1: I do think that there's that going on. There is
9:47
Speaker 1: there is this push that Wagner described. Dr Wagner described, Um,
9:52
Speaker 1: and I think also just I hope m books like
9:56
Speaker 1: this and even podcasts like this, perhaps through a small
10:00
Speaker 1: your level, not to shoot her own horn, but like
10:01
Speaker 1: that kind of information is becoming more and more available.
10:04
Speaker 1: Whether or not you find it, that's an issue, but
10:07
Speaker 1: it is out there. I feel like there's more things
10:12
Speaker 1: out there for people to find. You just have to
10:15
Speaker 1: know how to look for it, and that is, yes,
10:16
Speaker 1: the problem. Um. Dr Wagner continues. This phase of history
10:21
Speaker 1: also conveyed the message that the only people that matter
10:23
Speaker 1: are wealthy white men, and that common people have no
10:26
Speaker 1: influence over the course of events. Right. And in this example,
10:30
Speaker 1: she talks about the story of Christopher Columbus and and
10:34
Speaker 1: the way it was framed and what we see today.
10:36
Speaker 1: And I love that. I love that we have come
10:38
Speaker 1: to a cultural shift of changing that to Indigenous People's Day,
10:42
Speaker 1: like awareness Day, I'm like, yeah, Okay, we're getting there.
10:45
Speaker 1: We're getting there, at least we're getting there with terms.
10:47
Speaker 1: We're getting there with understanding, but there's obviously so much
10:50
Speaker 1: that we're lacking, right, And we even talked about that
10:53
Speaker 1: with things like our our episode we did on Wikipedia
10:55
Speaker 1: or those check ins with like, there's still so much
10:59
Speaker 1: further to go in terms of who we're talking about
11:02
Speaker 1: and when we're recording and it still is this a
11:06
Speaker 1: lot kind of wealthy white man. It is getting better,
11:09
Speaker 1: but it's like slow going. Um. But as she wrote,
11:14
Speaker 1: history changes, and that is things in part to those
11:17
Speaker 1: who saw the injustices of these whitewashed context She writes, quote,
11:21
Speaker 1: recognition of historical injustices opened the way to see the
11:24
Speaker 1: triumphs of those who resisted overcame It nearly overwhelming odds
11:28
Speaker 1: and survived. Most recently, we have begun to explore the
11:32
Speaker 1: unexpected and largely unknown stories of friendships established during colonization
11:36
Speaker 1: and coexistence and of the way groups influenced each other.
11:40
Speaker 1: All right, And I love that beginning because that's kind
11:43
Speaker 1: of the thing we talked about with Fox about her documentary,
11:47
Speaker 1: was that, more so than just the history, we were
11:50
Speaker 1: seeing the friendship between Dr Wagner and the clan mother
11:53
Speaker 1: and how they've been friends for years, but just loving
11:55
Speaker 1: their relationship even and that was one of the bigger
11:58
Speaker 1: things to her that she saw following them around and
12:01
Speaker 1: the love between them and the work they've done throughout
12:04
Speaker 1: the years, like this book and the and the Ford. Um.
12:07
Speaker 1: I really found it fascinating. And also, yeah, the fact
12:10
Speaker 1: that they have survived, and when we talked with Box
12:13
Speaker 1: about even the native language and that she didn't know
12:16
Speaker 1: it because yes, it had been literally beaten out of
12:19
Speaker 1: them and during the boarding school era and and now
12:23
Speaker 1: has come back and it's being restored and it's a
12:25
Speaker 1: beautiful thing because they know that it has to survive,
12:28
Speaker 1: and it's an amazing thing to witness today. Yeah. Yeah,
12:33
Speaker 1: And and things like just the cultural practices and the
12:37
Speaker 1: stories and passing these things down from generation to generation.
12:41
Speaker 1: We really can't recommend that documentary enough. It was so
12:45
Speaker 1: enlightening and it's beautifully shot. But yeah, I love the
12:47
Speaker 1: friendship between between them two and then also seeing these
12:50
Speaker 1: multiple generations of women right talk about these issues, right. Uh.
12:57
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner asks us the readers to seriously think about
13:01
Speaker 1: the radicalism of the suffraget movement, that we celebrate the
13:04
Speaker 1: nine at Amendment today and acknowledge the works are the
13:07
Speaker 1: more well known activists like Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton,
13:11
Speaker 1: which by the way, I believed Dr Wagner had a
13:14
Speaker 1: hand and bringing her history back for a while. It
13:16
Speaker 1: was missing until not too long ago, So that's pretty interesting. Um,
13:21
Speaker 1: we don't always look deep at the fights they had
13:24
Speaker 1: to endure. And for those who are willing to call
13:26
Speaker 1: out oppressive systems, that even today is still a controversial topic.
13:31
Speaker 1: And within these conversations we have to look at ourselves
13:34
Speaker 1: and ask would we have done the same thing or
13:38
Speaker 1: as Dr Wagener puss it uh just be quote safe, um,
13:42
Speaker 1: And yeah, we're gonna talk a little more bit about that,
13:45
Speaker 1: and and just so you know, we're not gonna go
13:47
Speaker 1: deep into some of the analogies because I have a
13:49
Speaker 1: hard time with some of these analogies. And when it
13:51
Speaker 1: comes to white women movements, uh to enslavement, and there
13:55
Speaker 1: is some conversations about servitude back then in the limited
13:58
Speaker 1: freedoms and all of that. So there is some conversations
14:01
Speaker 1: about that in the book. We're not going to harp
14:04
Speaker 1: too deeply in it, but just know that it is
14:05
Speaker 1: there in that in the awareness that women have no
14:08
Speaker 1: rights at that point in time, especially the beginning of
14:11
Speaker 1: the movement in the mid nineteenth century going forward, so
14:15
Speaker 1: there was a lot of time about emancipation and conversation.
14:17
Speaker 1: So this was something that was in their thought processes
14:20
Speaker 1: and I think it's important to know. But we're not
14:22
Speaker 1: gonna go deep into that part um. But a part
14:25
Speaker 1: of Dr Wagner's work includes the history of many women
14:28
Speaker 1: as part of the suffragette movement, as well as preserving
14:31
Speaker 1: the works of the women, especially those who are lesser known.
14:34
Speaker 1: Within the book, she talks about the works and interactions
14:37
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Matilda Justin gauge Um Engage was
14:41
Speaker 1: with the suffrage Triumvirate alongside Stanton and Anthony. So they
14:45
Speaker 1: were the first three essentially leaders, and they met up
14:48
Speaker 1: the leadership positions of the National Women's Suffrage Association. Gauge
14:51
Speaker 1: and Stanton concentrated on more radical levels of feminism at
14:55
Speaker 1: the time. Dr Wagner writes a quote made by Gauge, quote,
14:59
Speaker 1: the laws civil and social, each equally burdensome our church origin.
15:03
Speaker 1: And not until the church is destroyed will women be freed,
15:07
Speaker 1: which even said today would cause a lot of controversy.
15:12
Speaker 1: We know this as a black people saying it today
15:14
Speaker 1: is causing a lot of controversy. Stanton seemed to have agreed,
15:18
Speaker 1: as Dr Wagner quotes from one of Stanton's letters. As
15:22
Speaker 1: I have passed from the political to the religious phase
15:24
Speaker 1: of this question, I now see more clearly than ever
15:27
Speaker 1: that the arch enemy to women's freedom skulk behind the
15:30
Speaker 1: altar to rouse women to a sense of their degradation
15:34
Speaker 1: under the canon, law and church discipline is the work
15:37
Speaker 1: that interests me most into which I prepared to devote
15:40
Speaker 1: the sunset of my life. Right eighteen fifties, eighteen seventies,
15:45
Speaker 1: they were talking about this. This was not heard of.
15:48
Speaker 1: We know that there's a d conversation about religiousness and
15:53
Speaker 1: like religious morality. I did not know that they were
15:58
Speaker 1: so against the church. I think I knew very little
16:00
Speaker 1: on that level of like they just wanted to move forward, um,
16:03
Speaker 1: and it was right, but they were supremely against the
16:07
Speaker 1: church as it stands. And that kind of comes into
16:10
Speaker 1: the conversation about white nationalism today and how it relates together.
16:14
Speaker 1: And it's pretty amazing to see that we're still here. Yeah. Yeah,
16:19
Speaker 1: it's a big focus of the book, honestly, um. And
16:22
Speaker 1: that surprised me as well how much they wrote about religion,
16:27
Speaker 1: and specifically here, like you know, white European religion, that
16:32
Speaker 1: how it was oppressing women, and that's something you and
16:37
Speaker 1: I were working on a long series about. It's getting longer.
16:41
Speaker 1: It's getting longer, longer. So yeah, I mean it's still
16:45
Speaker 1: a huge, huge topic today. But I was surprised at
16:48
Speaker 1: how much of this book. I was like, oh, whoa.
16:52
Speaker 1: They did not hold back, and they weren't the only ones.
16:55
Speaker 1: They definitely were the quieter voices, it seems because again,
16:58
Speaker 1: like Dr Wagner makes mentioned that Susan B. Anthony was
17:01
Speaker 1: the perfect example of the quiet, demure moral representation of
17:07
Speaker 1: the Suffraget movement. And not necessarily standing or gage who
17:10
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, the church, the church is destroying us
17:12
Speaker 1: because y'all want to put us under this awful idea
17:15
Speaker 1: that Eve has uh cursed us all, which they talk
17:19
Speaker 1: about too. But it's an interesting take it. I'll love it.
17:22
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie sorry. And with that, they wrote
17:26
Speaker 1: in the History of Women's suffrage quote, society is based
17:28
Speaker 1: on this fourfold bondage of women, Church, state, capital, and society,
17:33
Speaker 1: making liberty and equality for her antagonistic to every organized institution.
17:37
Speaker 1: So those are the four institutions and kind of break
17:39
Speaker 1: it down. We're just gonna kind of summarize that with
17:42
Speaker 1: state being under government control with no rights and limited liberty.
17:46
Speaker 1: Capital is the idea of marriage, which equates to unpaid
17:48
Speaker 1: labor and servitude and often leads to the women having
17:51
Speaker 1: no rights or no say within the household or the land,
17:55
Speaker 1: no right to property. Is either society, which is an
17:58
Speaker 1: inability to earn wages or have a career, which takes
18:01
Speaker 1: away from their having independence, liberty, and even equality, um
18:05
Speaker 1: any of them. Like, we wouldn't break that down a
18:07
Speaker 1: little further because she does talk about these four subjects
18:10
Speaker 1: throughout and of course we just mentioned the church, so
18:13
Speaker 1: we don't have to explain that. I don't think. Yeah.
18:15
Speaker 1: I would also add in here I've long wanted to
18:17
Speaker 1: do this episode. I think it would be very complicated.
18:19
Speaker 1: Perhaps we'll talk about it in the religious history one.
18:22
Speaker 1: But there's a long history of wanting to restrict women's
18:26
Speaker 1: rights because many women are people with uters is can
18:29
Speaker 1: have children and children at this time, we're used for labor,
18:33
Speaker 1: and so it was a type of capital and they
18:35
Speaker 1: wanted to men in the church. The church didn't want
18:38
Speaker 1: to pay for children burn out of web. Look that
18:41
Speaker 1: came up to is like women who had children, people
18:45
Speaker 1: who had children having no rights to the child right
18:50
Speaker 1: and yeah, that was that they were property on the
18:52
Speaker 1: same level as women were property right. Very interesting, Um,
18:57
Speaker 1: so where did these ideas these institutions come from? And
19:01
Speaker 1: on the interview, I admitted to fox Uh that this
19:04
Speaker 1: was one of those moments that felt obvious that the
19:07
Speaker 1: suffraget movement wasn't something born from the Eurocentric ideal that
19:10
Speaker 1: the beginning of this country was based on the oppression
19:13
Speaker 1: of the European British standards. So it kind of was like, oh, yeah, duh, yeah,
19:22
Speaker 1: it made yeah of course, of course, we just don't
19:25
Speaker 1: think that that far behind Dr Wagner. She writes about
19:29
Speaker 1: her own misconceptions. I did not set out to look
19:31
Speaker 1: for this connection, this link between early suffragists and native people's.
19:36
Speaker 1: In truth, if someone has suggested it to me when
19:38
Speaker 1: I taught my first women studies class in nineteen sixty nine,
19:42
Speaker 1: I would have scoffed at yet another more quote romantic
19:46
Speaker 1: Indian story. I had a single question, basic to feminist history.
19:50
Speaker 1: How did the radical suffragists come to their vision, A
19:53
Speaker 1: vision not of band aid reform, but of a reconstituted
19:57
Speaker 1: world completely transformed H And I thought that was something significant.
20:01
Speaker 1: She admits it, and then she goes on to talk
20:03
Speaker 1: about the fact that she never once doubted that it
20:07
Speaker 1: came from the European women, even though when we look
20:10
Speaker 1: at the historical context, European women didn't have freedoms like that, right, right,
20:15
Speaker 1: And I think that goes to show how deeply ingrained
20:19
Speaker 1: our whitewash history is. Is that I mean, she admitted it.
20:23
Speaker 1: I can admit it. I didn't really think about it
20:25
Speaker 1: when when I learned it, I was like, oh, of course, um,
20:29
Speaker 1: but that's how deep this is. And That's how damaging
20:31
Speaker 1: that kind of a rature is because we could have
20:34
Speaker 1: I mean, it's heartbreaking in so many ways, but we
20:37
Speaker 1: could have learned so much more we had the history
20:40
Speaker 1: available to us instead of they taught us how to
20:43
Speaker 1: plant corn. Yes, the native people taught us how to
20:46
Speaker 1: plant corn, and I mean white people. Sorry. And this
20:51
Speaker 1: is something that she discovers and we'll talk about in
20:53
Speaker 1: a few minutes. Yes, but first, Dr Wagner begins by
20:56
Speaker 1: breaking down the language of the colonizers versus the indigenous Uh,
21:00
Speaker 1: the different types of misinformation presented in the usage of
21:03
Speaker 1: the term indians. For example, um is an example of
21:07
Speaker 1: the horror and dangers of colonizers giving names instead of
21:12
Speaker 1: the community letting us know the name that they go by.
21:15
Speaker 1: The different tribal names given we're also given by colonizers,
21:19
Speaker 1: as well as the term tribes. Dr Wagner writes, not
21:22
Speaker 1: recognizing the terrible appropriation of self identity inflicted in a
21:26
Speaker 1: false other imposed name. They have that quote political correctness
21:31
Speaker 1: that requires them to change their language. Yeah, why is
21:36
Speaker 1: it still relatable? I know, I mean, let's be honest,
21:43
Speaker 1: Like when we talk about a lot of these conversations
21:46
Speaker 1: and issues yeah, it's still going ongoing today, even to
21:49
Speaker 1: the point that finally the people have stopped saying the
21:53
Speaker 1: term Indian, which basically cringed to say, I'm not gonna
21:56
Speaker 1: lie uh to Native or Indigenous or First People's which
22:01
Speaker 1: is appropriate, which makes complete sense. And in the fact
22:04
Speaker 1: that this was not the name they were getting, like
22:07
Speaker 1: they go by. This has always been an insulting term
22:11
Speaker 1: for them because it was giving by colonizers as a
22:13
Speaker 1: way of kind of ownership of that community. And it's
22:16
Speaker 1: it's like, oh God, yeah, and I love that sentence
22:19
Speaker 1: about her saying the terrible appropriation of self identity inflicted. Uh,
22:24
Speaker 1: like that whole sentences that we talked about appropriation. And
22:28
Speaker 1: this was two thousand one and it existed dead, but
22:30
Speaker 1: it wasn't this big conversation it is today that Yeah,
22:36
Speaker 1: it absolutely was. This is absolutely some of the evidence
22:39
Speaker 1: of appropriation committed by colonizers, and which is the example
22:43
Speaker 1: of why this is so damaging and an important then
23:00
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner writes, self naming is, of course a critical
23:03
Speaker 1: part of the process of creating a diverse culture. One rule,
23:06
Speaker 1: when in doubt about what to call a person or group,
23:09
Speaker 1: don't tie up their time and energy and asking read
23:12
Speaker 1: what they have to say, then sift carefully and slowly
23:15
Speaker 1: through the multiple answers, knowing that this is not a
23:17
Speaker 1: trivial matter. So we change by evolving and respecting the
23:21
Speaker 1: culture that has been around before the existence of this country. Yeah. Yeah,
23:27
Speaker 1: ask questions, ask good questions. I wonder who wrote the
23:30
Speaker 1: history always, but I do think that's part of it.
23:33
Speaker 1: Is like a lot of people, and we've discussed this again,
23:37
Speaker 1: going back to that Wikipedia episode, is if it's not
23:39
Speaker 1: easily found, I think a lot of people just don't
23:41
Speaker 1: put in the time and we really need to. We
23:44
Speaker 1: have to write and yeah, like she says, don't tie
23:47
Speaker 1: up their time and energy, which is exactly that conversation is.
23:51
Speaker 1: Let we're asking for something of value from them because
23:55
Speaker 1: we're too lazy to look at it ourselves when the
23:58
Speaker 1: work has already been done. Yes, Yes, Also an ongoing
24:02
Speaker 1: conversation here, Dr Wagner emphasizes the importance of recognizing the
24:06
Speaker 1: community as they call themselves, and here Dr Wagner is
24:10
Speaker 1: specifically talking about the six nations of the Hodda Nishani
24:13
Speaker 1: are formally named Iroquois, which includes the Onondagas, the Cayugas,
24:18
Speaker 1: the Senecas, the Mohawks, and the Oneidas. Later they would
24:22
Speaker 1: add the nation of tolcar Auras and Hotda. Nashani translates
24:26
Speaker 1: to quote the people of the long House from the
24:28
Speaker 1: circumstance that they likened their political structure of a long
24:32
Speaker 1: tenement or dwelling. Yeah, and I'll also add, if you
24:35
Speaker 1: get the book, and I'll hope you get the book
24:36
Speaker 1: and you're able to read it, they do have a
24:37
Speaker 1: lot of amazing illustrations to go with these, and there
24:41
Speaker 1: is a great illustration like of this dwelling. So it's
24:44
Speaker 1: really interesting to see. And these are people who would
24:47
Speaker 1: heavinly influence the radical movement of women's rights and the
24:51
Speaker 1: beginning of feminist ideology. According to Dr Wagner's research, the
24:55
Speaker 1: women's rights movement really began in the territory of Hodashani
24:58
Speaker 1: in eighteen forty eat uh. As we said earlier, she
25:01
Speaker 1: found these answers to who was the influence in the
25:04
Speaker 1: women's rights movement. Um, here's another quote from the book.
25:08
Speaker 1: It dawned on me I had been skimming over the
25:11
Speaker 1: source of their vision without even noticing it. My own
25:14
Speaker 1: stunningly deep seated presumption of white supremacy had kept me
25:18
Speaker 1: from recognizing what these protect typical feminists kept insisting in
25:22
Speaker 1: their writings. They believed women's liberation was possible because they
25:26
Speaker 1: knew liberated women, women who possessed rights beyond their wildest imaginations.
25:31
Speaker 1: The hold of a Shawnee women um and she later continues,
25:34
Speaker 1: like most historians do, I had assumed that the story
25:37
Speaker 1: of feminism began with the discovery of America by white men,
25:41
Speaker 1: or the political revolutions staged by the colonists. That there's
25:45
Speaker 1: no seed of feminism already in American soil when the
25:48
Speaker 1: first white settlers arrived. Without realizing it, I had assumed
25:52
Speaker 1: that white people had imported the germ of the idea
25:55
Speaker 1: of women's rights, and that was the end of the story, right.
25:59
Speaker 1: I think the two parts that we wanted to talk about, like,
26:02
Speaker 1: that is white supremacy that level, whether or not you
26:05
Speaker 1: want to admit it. And because people don't like that
26:08
Speaker 1: term white supremacy because it's too heavily laid with you
26:10
Speaker 1: might be racist, um, but that is as an underlying
26:14
Speaker 1: racism that you don't know about. That even like for
26:17
Speaker 1: me as well, obviously I'm still as an Asian woman
26:21
Speaker 1: hanging onto that white supremacy and assuming the same thing
26:25
Speaker 1: that it was it began with white women point blank.
26:28
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. And there's so much offensive like ideas
26:33
Speaker 1: underpending that in terminology and depending that that the book
26:36
Speaker 1: does go into. But yeah, it's pretty it's pretty distressing
26:41
Speaker 1: and disturbing because yeah, if you you don't know because
26:44
Speaker 1: you were raised with this particular version of history that
26:46
Speaker 1: we're all kind of like growing up in um, then
26:51
Speaker 1: you don't know to ask. And so it's so good
26:54
Speaker 1: that the work like this exists and people are asking
26:59
Speaker 1: now because it is just the so much of what
27:06
Speaker 1: the Hodd and Shannie Like, there was one chart, you
27:09
Speaker 1: know the chart I'm talking about where it showed that
27:11
Speaker 1: like how their society is versus like we're gonna talk
27:13
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I'm telling you, like, it was such
27:16
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing that even today I was looking at
27:20
Speaker 1: it like what right, I can barely imagine this. And
27:26
Speaker 1: to be honest, even to this day, they still have
27:29
Speaker 1: more rights and more equality than we do as a
27:33
Speaker 1: country today. Yeah. Let the culture before, since they've been existing,
27:47
Speaker 1: has more rights than us today. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, And
27:53
Speaker 1: it's just again so frustrating that so many of us
27:57
Speaker 1: do think of when we think of the feminist movement,
28:00
Speaker 1: we think of these white women, and there were so
28:01
Speaker 1: many women of color behind it that get erased. But
28:05
Speaker 1: then to have them get the credit flight being the
28:08
Speaker 1: start of it when they were learning from all of
28:11
Speaker 1: the incigenous women, like, that's where they got these ideas
28:15
Speaker 1: um and she was able to research to the truth.
28:17
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the movement, she writes, they stayed
28:19
Speaker 1: and engage, looked elsewhere for their vision of the regenerated world,
28:23
Speaker 1: and they found it in Upstate New York. They became
28:26
Speaker 1: students of the hoddaa Shawnee and found a cosmological worldview
28:30
Speaker 1: they believed to be superior to the patriarchal, white male
28:34
Speaker 1: dominated view prevalent in their own nation. So Lovely Gauge
28:46
Speaker 1: was an avid researcher of the Hoddaashani culture and the
28:49
Speaker 1: role of the women in their system, which she termed
28:52
Speaker 1: matriarch kate I think that's correct or mother rule system.
28:56
Speaker 1: As In fact, Gauge wrote articles about the Hodda Shanie
28:59
Speaker 1: and all so started a book. Here's another quote from
29:02
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner, the editor of The New York Evening post
29:06
Speaker 1: said that Gauge expressed, quote an exhibition of ardent devotion
29:09
Speaker 1: to the cause of women's rights, which is very proper
29:12
Speaker 1: in the president of the Suffrage Association and gives prominence
29:15
Speaker 1: to the fact that in the old days, on the
29:17
Speaker 1: glory of the famous Confederation was at its height, the
29:20
Speaker 1: power and importance of women were recognized by the allied tribes. Right.
29:26
Speaker 1: I found it interesting because we're gonna go deeper into
29:28
Speaker 1: the fact that these women who we're trying to advocate
29:33
Speaker 1: so hard for the women in the United States at
29:37
Speaker 1: that point in time, in the in the white territories,
29:39
Speaker 1: I guess we're trying so hard to bring that cultural
29:43
Speaker 1: aspect to it, but had to admit they loved and
29:47
Speaker 1: rather would have stayed with that culture the indigenous community
29:53
Speaker 1: because they were they were even given the same rights
29:56
Speaker 1: as HoDaa Shawnee women. They are who were have been
29:59
Speaker 1: born into that since but they were accepted of it.
30:01
Speaker 1: And because of this they came back with allies who
30:04
Speaker 1: helped to be like here, here you go, we got
30:06
Speaker 1: your back. This is what you can do, this is
30:07
Speaker 1: what we're gonna tell you about. We'll tell you about
30:09
Speaker 1: our system, we'll show it to you and show you
30:10
Speaker 1: how wonderful it worked. Yeah, that was a lot of
30:13
Speaker 1: examples of that throughout and also a lot of like
30:17
Speaker 1: discussion hit home again of how they felt safe like
30:21
Speaker 1: walking at night alone Native territories, but didn't they never had,
30:27
Speaker 1: and then the back they were surprised when they felt
30:30
Speaker 1: that safe. They're like, yeah, why wouldn't you write um
30:37
Speaker 1: And as both Stanton and Gauge continue to push forward
30:39
Speaker 1: in the women's rights movement, they noted quote the society
30:43
Speaker 1: in which they lived was based on the impression of
30:45
Speaker 1: women hot into Shawnee. Society, on the other hand, was
30:47
Speaker 1: organized to maintain a balance of the quality between women
30:50
Speaker 1: and men, and they went as far as creating a list, Yes,
30:53
Speaker 1: this is what we were talking about to show those differences,
30:56
Speaker 1: which they break down as social, econom make, spiritual and political.
31:01
Speaker 1: Here are some of the examples, um hoddena Shaani. Violence
31:04
Speaker 1: against women not a part of culture and dealt with
31:07
Speaker 1: seriously when occurs. Each woman controls your own personal property.
31:11
Speaker 1: Sky woman the spiritual being catalyst for the world. We
31:14
Speaker 1: see women hold key political offices e g. Clan mothers
31:18
Speaker 1: and for Euro American women, husbands have legal right and
31:21
Speaker 1: religious responsibility to physically discipline wives, no rights to her
31:25
Speaker 1: own property, body or children, no female in the godhead,
31:29
Speaker 1: and women are excluded from political office. Also, they can't
31:33
Speaker 1: vote while holding a Shawnee are the ones to choose
31:35
Speaker 1: their chief right, And there's a lot more to that list.
31:39
Speaker 1: We just wanted to give you a little bit of
31:41
Speaker 1: an example. But it's again shocking and again more rights
31:46
Speaker 1: than what we have today, even like we've gotten more
31:48
Speaker 1: rights since then, yeah, but still less rights than what
31:52
Speaker 1: the hold of a Shawnee women has. Yeah, I thought, yeah,
31:56
Speaker 1: I thought. I thought it was interesting they included the
31:58
Speaker 1: bit about like the odd head. There's no because, as
32:02
Speaker 1: you said earlier, that idea of Eve ruining everything in
32:06
Speaker 1: kind of white Christian religion. Um, so it's like, not
32:10
Speaker 1: only do we not have like a god, we have
32:15
Speaker 1: like the woman ruined everything. Right, they are meant to
32:18
Speaker 1: be punished because they are the ones they are the
32:21
Speaker 1: fault for sin periods. Yes and man right noxious? Uh.
32:29
Speaker 1: And also many of these women who studied the hold
32:31
Speaker 1: of a Shawnee were adopted into the different indigenous communities
32:34
Speaker 1: during their time with them, allowing them to practice leadership
32:37
Speaker 1: and autonomy under the hood. Of a Shawnee lifestyle, so
32:40
Speaker 1: they gotta taste. They got that taste. Um. And those
32:43
Speaker 1: who did study the lifestyle of this indigenous group all
32:46
Speaker 1: acknowledged the overall equality and freedom within the community, even
32:50
Speaker 1: beyond the freedom of the women. The system that was
32:53
Speaker 1: used by the hold of a shanity brought about peace
32:55
Speaker 1: within the community and a camaraderie. Um. And yeah, like
32:58
Speaker 1: you said, there was safety and there was a lot
33:01
Speaker 1: of measure to make sure everybody felt equal in a
33:03
Speaker 1: part of the system. So it wasn't just you have
33:07
Speaker 1: this role. It's a minute role. Get out of the
33:08
Speaker 1: way or you'll be beaten. Um. And if you could
33:11
Speaker 1: step out of line whatever, it was like, No, we
33:14
Speaker 1: all are equal to each other. One doesn't outdo the other.
33:16
Speaker 1: We balanced each other, right, Um. And that whole idea too,
33:21
Speaker 1: is so stark of like, you know, hurting a woman
33:24
Speaker 1: with the hold nutshine people punishing seriously, very very rare.
33:29
Speaker 1: It's like codified into law that men could do that
33:32
Speaker 1: to their wives if they like straight or did something
33:36
Speaker 1: quote heavy quotes wrong, right, And it's biblically allowed, not
33:41
Speaker 1: been allowed to biblically forced. They was like, you have
33:44
Speaker 1: to do this right, because otherwives the sin will get
33:48
Speaker 1: hold of her. It was their responsibility to keep their
33:52
Speaker 1: wives in check. Yeah, it's really real. Must up, must up. Yeah.
33:58
Speaker 1: And in their culture of the Hut and Shinny had
34:00
Speaker 1: freedoms that seem radical even today to some extent, women
34:04
Speaker 1: choosing their leaders and being able to fire him if
34:07
Speaker 1: his actions violate. There's three qualifications. Quote they cannot commit murder,
34:12
Speaker 1: cannot commit theft, and cannot abuse a woman. Huh, that's right,
34:16
Speaker 1: they're right there. And on top of that, divorce was
34:22
Speaker 1: not looked down on, which Stanton was a proponent of.
34:25
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner writes she found a model in the Hood
34:27
Speaker 1: and a Shawnee attitudes towards divorce, where quote a misbehaving
34:31
Speaker 1: Iroquois husband quote might at any time be ordered to
34:34
Speaker 1: pick up his blanket and budge get out. Yeah, pick
34:39
Speaker 1: up his blanket, budge, But I love it, get out.
34:46
Speaker 1: That's great. And reviews on divorce were in part due
34:49
Speaker 1: to the level of the structure of marriage, with marital
34:52
Speaker 1: rape and abuse being legal, as well as women's complete
34:55
Speaker 1: loss of autonomy to the authority of their husband. Stanton
34:58
Speaker 1: looked towards the practices of the Hoddan Shawnee. She is
35:01
Speaker 1: quoted in the book as envying how native women quote
35:04
Speaker 1: ruled the house. Dr Wagner continued later in the book
35:08
Speaker 1: of the seriousness for men of the Honda Shawnee misbehaving, uh,
35:12
Speaker 1: including rape, which researchers noted was non existence. She writes
35:18
Speaker 1: a tesca or chief Elias Johnson wrote, the absence of
35:21
Speaker 1: rape and quote sexual violation of women was virtually unknown
35:25
Speaker 1: among native men, right, which is amazing And I think
35:29
Speaker 1: I know Fox talked about that during our interview as well,
35:32
Speaker 1: that that was not introduced until Christian missionaries came through
35:36
Speaker 1: and tried to quote unquote civilize right and the indigenous community,
35:41
Speaker 1: which damn you. And as for domestic violence, if one
35:48
Speaker 1: of the indigenous men were known to be abusive, he
35:50
Speaker 1: was quote led to the red hot statue of a
35:53
Speaker 1: female and requested to treat it as he had done
35:56
Speaker 1: his wife. He commenced beating it and the sparks flew out,
35:59
Speaker 1: and we're continually burning him. So that was his attrition essentially,
36:04
Speaker 1: just like, Okay, we got this burning hot statue, good
36:07
Speaker 1: for it, and which is what just caused him to burn.
36:10
Speaker 1: I'm like, I like it let's do it. Yeah, So
36:16
Speaker 1: obviously there was very limited numbers of some domestic violence
36:18
Speaker 1: at that point in time. And on top of the
36:21
Speaker 1: different responsibilities, the hot and a Shawnee women were farmers
36:25
Speaker 1: and the authority of the land. Um, here's another quote
36:28
Speaker 1: for the book, satisfying and sacred. Women's work harmoniously complimented
36:32
Speaker 1: the hunting diplomatic duties of men. Both were equally valued
36:36
Speaker 1: within the framework of community responsibility, individual liberty flourished. Um.
36:41
Speaker 1: And you know, we we had this conversation about feminism
36:44
Speaker 1: in general a while ago as we were talking about
36:46
Speaker 1: the different waves that yes, at one point the women
36:48
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to work, which kind of contradicted
36:51
Speaker 1: the fact that women who had to work and had
36:52
Speaker 1: no choice it had to be menial labor and the
36:55
Speaker 1: fact that this is not a right to them. Right.
36:59
Speaker 1: But this comes to the path fact that is about
37:01
Speaker 1: the balance, because at this point in time, um, Stanton
37:05
Speaker 1: and Engage, we're both talking about the fact the women
37:09
Speaker 1: were in uh, pretty much servitude to their husbands and
37:12
Speaker 1: we're not allowed to do anything else, and had no
37:15
Speaker 1: monetary savings themselves and had the rights to anything. So
37:18
Speaker 1: if they were ever to be abandoned. They would have nothing. Yeah,
37:21
Speaker 1: And I think that's another thing that was really striking
37:24
Speaker 1: to me because even if I personally believe that women's
37:29
Speaker 1: work is undervalued, it should be paid way more. I'm
37:34
Speaker 1: I'm of the belief like women who stay home and
37:36
Speaker 1: take care of kids should get paid some like financial
37:39
Speaker 1: compensation because it's a job. This is hard for me
37:43
Speaker 1: to believe our society could ever reach a point where
37:45
Speaker 1: we equally value quote Bremon's work and men's work, because
37:49
Speaker 1: that's how difficult this battle has been, right and it
37:55
Speaker 1: still continues to be obviously, as you were talking about,
37:57
Speaker 1: even like the pay gap, that we continue to talk
37:59
Speaker 1: about the gender gap when it comes to opportunities for
38:02
Speaker 1: better jobs or good jobs or different jobs. Um. But
38:07
Speaker 1: there was a balance in the hood of the Shaunning community.
38:10
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner rights. Women were responsible for everything in the
38:14
Speaker 1: earth while men had the care of everything on the earth.
38:17
Speaker 1: And yes, that's I think that's part of the biggest
38:21
Speaker 1: conversations that gets lost when it comes to like men's
38:23
Speaker 1: rights movements and all this. Both we want to get
38:26
Speaker 1: the equal footing, and at this point that's no longer.
38:30
Speaker 1: Equality is equity and that's a conversation we need to
38:33
Speaker 1: have in itself, and of course it becomes an intersectional thing,
38:36
Speaker 1: which yes, it's a big, big conversation, but to the
38:38
Speaker 1: fact that they started equal, they've been equal. They don't
38:42
Speaker 1: have to talk about equity because they're already equal. And
38:44
Speaker 1: this is the conversation that we don't have enough of.
38:48
Speaker 1: And it's this balance of like, yeah, you can have
38:51
Speaker 1: this one and one, one and one, as in like, okay,
38:54
Speaker 1: if you want to be a stay at home mom,
38:57
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, you do you, but you also have that
39:01
Speaker 1: right to have a vacation, to have a compensation, and
39:05
Speaker 1: have time off, like all of those things where you
39:07
Speaker 1: should be allowed that just as much as the husband is,
39:10
Speaker 1: and that he should be able to follow through with
39:11
Speaker 1: that as his is, Like he gets vacation every day
39:14
Speaker 1: if she's they are taking care of the children and
39:16
Speaker 1: feeding him and cleaning the house. Equality would be that
39:19
Speaker 1: he would take that footing as if this was her
39:21
Speaker 1: job as well, right with equal compensation at equal time off.
39:26
Speaker 1: But that's that's a whole different I digress. Yes, it's
39:31
Speaker 1: just yes. And with all of this knowledge, the movement
39:34
Speaker 1: went forward. The activists took up the act of civil disobedience,
39:37
Speaker 1: including trying to vote and not paying taxes. They declared
39:40
Speaker 1: the States violating the law by quote refusing to women's
39:43
Speaker 1: citizens the exercise of a right secured to them by
39:46
Speaker 1: the Constitution of the United States, including the denial of
39:50
Speaker 1: women's legal right to vote. And it was soon after
39:54
Speaker 1: that Susan B. Anthony would be arrested and tried for
39:57
Speaker 1: voting in eighteen seventy three, which led to Anthony being
40:00
Speaker 1: found guilty of voting and find one hundred dollars, which
40:03
Speaker 1: would lead to the Supreme Court case brought on by
40:06
Speaker 1: Virginia Minor, but they lost. The court declared quote, states
40:10
Speaker 1: have the absolute right to grant or deny suffrage. But
40:13
Speaker 1: of course that didn't stop them from continuing to fight
40:16
Speaker 1: another quote from the book, ridiculed labeled heretics and arrested
40:19
Speaker 1: for the crime of voting, The courageous suffragists continued to
40:22
Speaker 1: believe in the rightness of their cause, and as they
40:26
Speaker 1: continued to work for the right to vote, the activists
40:28
Speaker 1: kept looking to the examples of the Hodden Shawni people.
40:31
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner quotes both Stanton and Gauge Stanton rights the
40:35
Speaker 1: women were the great power among the clan. As everywhere else,
40:39
Speaker 1: they did not hesitate when occasion required to knock off
40:41
Speaker 1: the horns as it was technically called, from the head
40:44
Speaker 1: of a chief and sent him back to the ranks
40:46
Speaker 1: of the warriors. The original nomination of the chiefs also
40:49
Speaker 1: always rested with the women, and from Gauge quote, the
40:53
Speaker 1: common interests of the confederacy were arranged in councils, each
40:56
Speaker 1: sex holding one of its own, although the women took
40:59
Speaker 1: the initiative suggestion orders of their own sex, presenting their
41:02
Speaker 1: views to the council of men, right, and they could
41:06
Speaker 1: they held tied to that. Um, we still don't have that. No,
41:13
Speaker 1: I'm so discarded. Um, of course, like it is. It's
41:15
Speaker 1: something that they looked for. This was radical, So I'm
41:20
Speaker 1: not gonna lie. I knew about Stanton, kind of knew
41:23
Speaker 1: about Gauge, not really, but to understand that they saw
41:26
Speaker 1: the bigger picture. They saw the bigger picture even for today,
41:30
Speaker 1: and it's phenomenal that we're still behind what they wanted. Yeah, yeah,
41:36
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of those things where it's
41:39
Speaker 1: also so difficult to untangle when your government is kind
41:45
Speaker 1: of based in white supremacy and in sexism and in racism,
41:50
Speaker 1: like all of those systems. So like they're trying to
41:52
Speaker 1: get the right to vote within this system that's already
41:56
Speaker 1: kind of messed up, um, And so when you see,
42:01
Speaker 1: you know, the hun is shiny, they can just knock
42:04
Speaker 1: the horns off as they say, like, oh, this is
42:06
Speaker 1: not working. Whereas we have like convicted like sexual assault
42:13
Speaker 1: people who represent us in our government and can't seem
42:17
Speaker 1: to get them out right, Like it's just such a
42:20
Speaker 1: stark again stark difference, and then we accept it. M hmm.
42:25
Speaker 1: It's kind of like have a House of representatives whose
42:29
Speaker 1: entire campaign was based all on lines, yeah, and our
42:34
Speaker 1: speaking of the House refuses to denounce him yep, who
42:41
Speaker 1: was a veteran and it was supposed to be one
42:43
Speaker 1: of the better right conservative representatives. Like that that level
42:47
Speaker 1: just blows my mind, like are you kidding me? And
42:50
Speaker 1: we didn't talk much about it before in this outside
42:53
Speaker 1: of like talking about how much didn't and Gauge really
42:55
Speaker 1: opposed the Church um and felt like they were a
42:58
Speaker 1: giant oppressors. So here's a quote from Gauge that Dr
43:15
Speaker 1: Wagner pulls forth that the woman of every Christian Land
43:19
Speaker 1: fears to meet a man in a secluded place by
43:22
Speaker 1: day or night is of itself sufficient proof of the
43:24
Speaker 1: low state of Christian morality. That's pretty damning. I mean
43:30
Speaker 1: totally on point though. Yeah, if you had good you
43:34
Speaker 1: can't feel safe around a quote good Christian man the dark.
43:40
Speaker 1: That is saying something right. And they talked about beyond that,
43:45
Speaker 1: about the oppression of men, and that the religion, religion
43:49
Speaker 1: in itself that was brought over by uh the European standards,
43:53
Speaker 1: was to oppress women and that's the intention of it all.
43:56
Speaker 1: And if they hold on to that, that women will
43:58
Speaker 1: never have freedom and they will never have rights, and
44:00
Speaker 1: that the first they must abolish the church essentially. Um.
44:06
Speaker 1: And I found that interesting in this conversation, and that
44:09
Speaker 1: quote that Gage says applies today. I hate you did
44:14
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, it's true. And I like, like we
44:19
Speaker 1: said at the top, I didn't know that religion was
44:21
Speaker 1: going to be such a big part of this. I
44:23
Speaker 1: was shocked that at this time they were saying this stuff,
44:28
Speaker 1: not because they were wrong, but because it feels so
44:30
Speaker 1: explosive even today, right, But they were back then like Nope,
44:36
Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. The fact that, yeah, that women
44:41
Speaker 1: were actually printing this as a part of their goals
44:47
Speaker 1: essentially and in some of their points is phenomenal because
44:50
Speaker 1: we know how pure toan level, uh it was in
44:55
Speaker 1: that point in time, and to have these women come
44:57
Speaker 1: forward again, I didn't realize honestly, that level and that depth.
45:02
Speaker 1: I just assumed there were Christian women because most of
45:04
Speaker 1: the time that I hear from about the suffrages, I
45:08
Speaker 1: think about the prohibition to in nineteen twenties as it
45:12
Speaker 1: comes around, So that didn't link to me and all
45:16
Speaker 1: of that because it was kind of the morality level
45:17
Speaker 1: as well, like women have uh an opinion, they created
45:22
Speaker 1: the temperance society at that point in the nineteen twenties,
45:25
Speaker 1: so a little later, but still all these things um
45:28
Speaker 1: in the nineteen hundreds and and understanding at that point
45:31
Speaker 1: that that is such a different point of view. Not
45:35
Speaker 1: that I don't know Stanton engages opinions on alcohol, but
45:38
Speaker 1: I guess maybe today that's what I like, that could
45:41
Speaker 1: Christian behavior kind of goes alongside that. So seeing them
45:46
Speaker 1: out right being outspoken about their disdain about European Christianity, wow,
45:54
Speaker 1: like wow, Yeah, I think there's also just this is
45:58
Speaker 1: my experience. There's kind of a general vibe that everybody
46:02
Speaker 1: was pretty every like white European Christian was pretty religious. Um.
46:07
Speaker 1: And so that's just sort of my assumption is like
46:10
Speaker 1: almost everybody was religious, um. But that doesn't seem like
46:15
Speaker 1: it was the case. So with that, I think it's
46:18
Speaker 1: it's something that we we should know that because we
46:21
Speaker 1: often talk about the beginning of movements, uh, and even
46:25
Speaker 1: the beginning of the country as some kind of religious
46:27
Speaker 1: adventure or whatever. And this was obviously not that. This
46:31
Speaker 1: is obviously not that they were radical. They were radical
46:34
Speaker 1: to the core. They would be radical today. Yeah, I'm
46:37
Speaker 1: pretty sure didn't want of them say that, Like she
46:40
Speaker 1: kind of called out the hypocrisy of oh, you wanted
46:43
Speaker 1: to leave Europe because of religious persecution and now that
46:46
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, yeah, and as in fact that she
46:50
Speaker 1: talked about that you wanted freedom and the rights that
46:52
Speaker 1: we were so oppressed by, and then we fought with you,
46:55
Speaker 1: and then you took it away from us to how
46:57
Speaker 1: we were with you. We were with you in this
46:59
Speaker 1: calls and they quote Abigail Adams, which was before that movement,
47:03
Speaker 1: in her hopes that things would change for women, but
47:06
Speaker 1: it didn't, and she feared that. She feared that we
47:10
Speaker 1: were working alongside these men, but we're not going to
47:12
Speaker 1: get the rights. Yeah, but you know they're there's so
47:16
Speaker 1: there's so much to this, Yeah, and then you know,
47:19
Speaker 1: we want to end it on a little more of
47:21
Speaker 1: a positive note, I guess. And as Dr Wagner talked
47:23
Speaker 1: about and early in the book the idea of balance
47:26
Speaker 1: for the hood in a Johnny is Key, she writes,
47:29
Speaker 1: the hood in a Shawnee worldview is based on keeping
47:32
Speaker 1: everything in balance. Women and men each have responsibilities they
47:36
Speaker 1: must carry out to maintain this balance. The clan mother
47:38
Speaker 1: has the entire extended family that makes up a clan
47:42
Speaker 1: um and that it's an amazing representation, but it's not.
47:49
Speaker 1: It was their lifestyle of what it could be. Yeah,
47:56
Speaker 1: it's it feels like we're just saying the same thing
47:58
Speaker 1: over andre, but you really it's like, when you read it,
48:02
Speaker 1: it's devastating how hard it was for me to even
48:04
Speaker 1: envision a lot of this um And it's been here
48:09
Speaker 1: this whole time. They've see have been living this life
48:14
Speaker 1: and finding this balance. Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's
48:19
Speaker 1: interesting because when we think about equality, the word balance
48:25
Speaker 1: doesn't come to mind for me, but it is. That's
48:27
Speaker 1: exactly what we're asking for, is a balance UM. And
48:30
Speaker 1: when balance happens, equity happens so that we can all
48:33
Speaker 1: catch up to that the scale is balanced and brought
48:36
Speaker 1: back to as it should be and being equal to all.
48:40
Speaker 1: But it's such an interesting aspect of seeing that in
48:44
Speaker 1: in such a symbolic manner. Does that make sense? But Yeah,
48:49
Speaker 1: I love this book. I think everyone should read it. Yeah,
48:52
Speaker 1: you're gonna learn a lot of history that you don't know.
48:55
Speaker 1: You're gonna understand and be jealous of a culture that,
48:59
Speaker 1: unforly many of the colonizers try to completely destroy UM
49:04
Speaker 1: And I'm glad it didn't, And I'm glad it's coming
49:06
Speaker 1: back in full force and in at least being in conversation.
49:10
Speaker 1: I'm glad you've met someone like got you, Junie Fox,
49:13
Speaker 1: who was doing so much to make sure that story
49:16
Speaker 1: is out there, and for Dr Wagner, who was also
49:19
Speaker 1: making sure that she's not only not only shining a
49:24
Speaker 1: light onto our own prejudice, but shining a light on
49:26
Speaker 1: the rest of us and and letting us know the
49:28
Speaker 1: true history behind some of the things that we just
49:31
Speaker 1: attribute to a few people, a few white people and
49:34
Speaker 1: making it bigger. Yes, yes, I I totally agree that,
49:39
Speaker 1: like everyone should read this, go watch the documentary. Um
49:44
Speaker 1: and I know got you, Junie Fox said in her interview,
49:47
Speaker 1: and she said this in other interviews. This should be
49:48
Speaker 1: taught in schools, and I one thousands agree it should
49:53
Speaker 1: be in every school. Absolutely. Yes, well, uh, clearly we
49:59
Speaker 1: had so much to say off this. We feel like
50:02
Speaker 1: it'll definitely give you a lot to think about. So
50:06
Speaker 1: if you haven't already, if there's something else like this
50:09
Speaker 1: we should be reading and talking about, let us know.
50:11
Speaker 1: We love your suggestions. You can email us at Stephanie
50:15
Speaker 1: and mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can
50:17
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at moms of podcast or on
50:19
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You and TikTok at
50:21
Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You. We have a video. You
50:24
Speaker 1: need to go watch it. Yes, thank you Joey. Yes,
50:31
Speaker 1: Joey is amazing and patient. We'll always say thanks to
50:36
Speaker 1: our super producer, Christina also amazing evasion. Yes, yes, and
50:41
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You, the
50:43
Speaker 1: the production I Heart Radio. For more podcast from my
50:45
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the heart radio app,
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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, wherever you listen to your favorite shows.