Latest / Karl and Crew / 12 Hard Questions for Christianity with Rebecca McLaughlin & The Day of the Christian Martyr with Todd Nettleton

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12 Hard Questions for Christianity with Rebecca McLaughlin & The Day of the Christian Martyr with Todd Nettleton · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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  S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S2: Our two here on Carl and crew. Say I'm getting
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  S2: my sea legs back under me.
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  S3: Welcome back. Sorry about last week, man.
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  S2: Oh, boy. You know, you get hit with one of
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  S2: those random middle of the summer bugs that you go, wait,
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  S2: this isn't the time of the year for the flu.
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  S3: See, I don't think I've ever gotten a really kind
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  S3: of middle of the summer bug. Not like that.
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  S2: Yeah, I was I got hit, you could still hear
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  S2: it in my voice a little bit. I'm trying to
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  S2: work all of that out and but yeah, just got.
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  S2: And I'm grateful no one in my family got got
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  S2: it as well.
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  S3: Oh, that's.
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  S2: It was just me. So.
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  S3: Well, because when you're a parent, you can be sick,
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  S3: but as soon as someone else gets sick, you stop
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  S3: being able to be sick because you have to take
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  S3: care of them.
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  S2: Correct. But grateful to be back with you. You know,
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  S2: I want to tell you about one of the most,
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  S2: you know, when you do interviews as part of your job.
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  S2: And that's one of my favorite parts of this job
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  S2: is that I get to interview a lot of people,
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  S2: get to hear people's stories, and you carry parts of
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  S2: people's stories with you. Little pieces of them.
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  S3: In what way?
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  S2: You know, there are some some interviews that are very emotional,
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  S2: some that, you know, I love when I'm doing an
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  S2: interview and something makes me smile or something makes me
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  S2: laugh or something even makes me tear up. If somebody,
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  S2: when somebody trusts you enough to allow you into their story.
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  S2: And I had one of those interviews just recently, I
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  S2: had the privilege of filling in for Chris Fabry on
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  S2: Chris Fabry live here on the Moody Radio Network.
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  S3: Just a couple weeks ago.
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  S2: So just yeah, this was earlier. Earlier in June. Feels
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  S2: like a it feels like a lot has happened since then,
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  S2: but it's. I got to sit in that seat in
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  S2: a different studio here at downtown Chicago, at our Moody
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  S2: Bible Institute campus. But I was going to be interviewing
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  S2: a number of different folks, but one that was I
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  S2: had kind of pinned and I was a little bit nervous,
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  S2: I guess I was going to be interviewing a, a
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  S2: A couple who had lost their son and daughter in law.
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  S2: They'd been martyred as missionaries, and it was one of
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  S2: those stories that had. It had made international headlines. It
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  S2: had only. It's only been two years since this happened.
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  S2: They were this young couple. They were missionaries in Haiti
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  S2: and they were had served there. The son had served
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  S2: there pretty much that was his home, more so than
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  S2: the U.S. he was a missionary kid, so his parents
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  S2: had started this mission in Haiti many, many years ago,
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  S2: and he grew up there and felt more at home
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  S2: there than he did when they would take little brief
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  S2: reprieves back in the States. But the Lord called him
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  S2: there as well to continue the work that his parents
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  S2: had started. And so, you know, he had only been
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  S2: married for. Oh, boy. I want to say it was
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  S2: less than two years he had been married to his bride.
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  S2: And there was, you know, won't get into all the
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  S2: details of it, but it was a really, really hard,
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  S2: hard thing. And they ended up losing their lives. And
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  S2: this their parents had written wrote a book that came
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  S2: out this year just about their lives. And, you know,
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  S2: when you when you think about people who pay the
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  S2: ultimate sacrifice for their faith, you think, how do you
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  S2: you know, you I read the book from cover to
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  S2: cover and I thought, what kind of questions would you have?
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  S2: What kind of questions do you have? What kind of
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  S2: questions do you ask? There's so much pain, there's so
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  S2: much heartache. But at the same time, there was a
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  S2: lot of hope too. And so I bring this up
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  S2: because today is the day of the Christian martyr. You
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  S2: may not have known this, I'll be honest, until I
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  S2: saw that this was pinned. It's. And it's been pinned
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  S2: on our calendars for a while. I thought, oh, wow.
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  S2: So we're going to have an interview coming up with
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  S2: Todd Nettleton from voice of the martyrs. But this is
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  S2: a special time for Christians to remember those who have
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  S2: given their lives for the advancement of the gospel. And
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  S2: there are countries around the world where people are faced
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  S2: the threat of death every day because they claim the
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  S2: name of Christ. And so we have the opportunity to
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  S2: have a day of remembrance in Todd Nettleton. He's been
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  S2: with us here on Moody Radio many, many times and
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  S2: brings such great perspective as we think about the state
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  S2: of the global church, global persecution. So you're going to
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  S2: hear from him coming up later this hour. But it
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  S2: is good, good, good to be back with you here
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  S2: on this hot, hot, hot day here in Chicago. At
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  S2: least I don't know about you, but we are roasting here.
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  S2: Glad to be back with you. On this Monday morning.
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  S1: It's Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
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  S2: Well, as I mentioned, today is the day of the
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  S2: Christian Martyr 2026. I want to bring in a special guest,
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  S2: Todd Nettleton. He's the chief of media, media relations and
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  S2: message integration for the voice of the martyrs, host of
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  S2: voice of the Martyrs Radio. Todd. Good to have you
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  S2: with us this morning. Before we get to day of
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  S2: the Christian Martyr, just want to give us just a
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  S2: brief overview of voice of the martyrs. Many of our
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  S2: listeners are familiar, but I don't want to assume that
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  S2: everyone is.
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  S5: Well, voice of the martyrs is a ministry to persecuted Christians,
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  S5: and our founders were persecuted Christians. Pastor Richard Wurmbrand spent
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  S5: 14 years in prison in communist Romania, his wife Sabina,
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  S5: three years. They came to the West and began to
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  S5: tell their story and talk about other pastors in prison
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  S5: and people like you and me. We hear there are
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  S5: pastors in prison and we say, well, how do we
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  S5: help them? That's really how voice of the martyrs was founded.
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  S5: And next year we'll have been doing it for 60 years.
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  S2: Wow, 60 years. And you've been a part of this
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  S2: ministry for how many?
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  S5: 28.
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  S2: 28 of those. Wow. What drew you to this as
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  S2: your man. It's your profession, but it's some of it
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  S2: is just kind of like your life's call.
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  S5: It really has become a calling. Uh, I'm a missionary kid.
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  S5: I did part of my growing up in Papua New Guinea. So, uh,
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  S5: international ministry and Christians who are my brothers and sisters,
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  S5: but don't look like me and don't talk like me
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  S5: are kind of in my blood. Uh, but to, to
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  S5: meet heroes of the faith. I really get to sit down, uh,
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  S5: with the Peters and the Pauls of today and ask
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  S5: them questions. And I just think of that as such
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  S5: a holy privilege to be able to say, hey, what,
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  S5: you know, you think about you think about Paul and Silas,
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  S5: and I get to say, well, you know, when you're
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  S5: in the jail in the middle of the night, why
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  S5: did you decide to sing and what song were you singing?
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  S5: I get to sit down with the Pauls and the
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  S5: Silas's and ask those kind of questions. And like I say,
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  S5: it really is just a holy privilege.
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  S2: Todd Nettleton with us this morning coming up. Let's get
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  S2: to it today of the Christian Martyr, June 29th. What's
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  S2: the significance of that date, and what is a proper
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  S2: way to commemorate this kind of day coming up.
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  S1: Helping you take the next step in your walk with Jesus.
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  S1: God longs for us.
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  S6: Today to seek him and ask him to move in
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  S6: ways that we never could.
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  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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  S2: Todd Nettleton, our guest this morning as we commemorate the
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  S2: day of the Christian Martyr. Todd is with voice of
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  S2: the martyrs, which is a phenomenal ministry to the persecuted
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  S2: church around the world. So June 29th, why is that?
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  S2: The day that was chosen for this?
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  S5: Well, it is a significant day in church history. According
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  S5: to historians, that is the date that the apostle Paul
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  S5: was beheaded outside the city of Rome. So if you're
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  S5: going to have a day to honor those who laid
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  S5: down their lives for Christ, that's a pretty good starting point.
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  S2: You know, we hear a lot about the state of
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  S2: the global church around the world. Give us a kind
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  S2: of the latest in terms of where are Christians at
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  S2: most risk? What parts of the world.
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  S5: Well, one of the things, obviously Iran has been in
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  S5: the news and yes, there are Christians in Iran. Yes,
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  S5: they are at risk right now. Right now, there's a
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  S5: lot of risk for everybody in Iran. So that's one.
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  S5: But one that's kind of under the radar is in Africa.
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  S5: And we hear about Nigeria, northern Nigeria particularly. We don't
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  S5: hear about northern Mozambique. We don't hear about Burkina Faso
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  S5: and southern Mali, where there are also Islamist groups that
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  S5: are targeting Christians. They're targeting pastors. Just about six weeks ago,
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  S5: a pastor in northern Burkina Faso was killed. Two leaders
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  S5: in his church also killed same night, one attack clearly
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  S5: targeting church leaders, targeting that pastor. And like I say,
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  S5: the attacks in Africa, other than northern Nigeria, a lot
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  S5: of the attacks in Africa are really kind of under
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  S5: our radar, but it is a very difficult place to
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  S5: be a Christian.
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  S2: Give us some stories that you've heard recently. I know
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  S2: a big part of your job is to to, to
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  S2: be a storyteller, which I just, I love, I talked
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  S2: about earlier how when you interview people, you carry parts
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  S2: of their stories with you. What are you carrying as
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  S2: you kind of reflect on stories you've heard recently?
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  S5: Well, we were in Southeast Asia early this year, and
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  S5: I met a young lady from a Muslim background. She
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  S5: was a in a very devout Muslim family, went away
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  S5: to university, met a Christian friend who said, hey, why
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  S5: don't you come to church with me? And so she
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  S5: went to church and started to hear the gospel. And
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  S5: eventually she came to the point of realizing Jesus is real.
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  S5: He is the Son of God. I'm going to follow him.
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  S5: Her family obviously not happy about this at all. And
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  S5: and they got word that she was about to be baptized.
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  S5: And they drove four hours to her university town. They
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  S5: put her in the backseat of the car between two
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  S5: siblings and said, you are coming home with us. No,
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  S5: you don't have a choice. They took away her phone.
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  S5: She couldn't contact anybody, and she said as they were
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  S5: driving her back to her hometown and her dad was
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  S5: furious with her. And literally she's thinking he might kill me,
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  S5: but like, I might be going home and my dad
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  S5: is going to kill me. And she said, as as
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  S5: she was driving back, she's praying. And she said, Lord,
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  S5: I need to know that you're with me. Like, I've
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  S5: got a lot on the line here. Are you really
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  S5: with me, God? And she said, just as she prayed
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  S5: that prayer, there was a truck coming from the other
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  S5: direction and painted across the front grille of the truck
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  S5: was the word Emmanuel, God with us. And she said
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  S5: it was just like the Lord just immediately answered her prayer. Yes, Emmanuel,
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  S5: God is with us. He. I am with you. I'll
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  S5: take care of you. They took her home again. They
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  S5: had taken her phone. She couldn't contact anybody. They locked
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  S5: her in her room. A couple days later, she managed
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  S5: to get out of her house. Some of her family
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  S5: was gone. Some of her family was asleep. She snuck
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  S5: out with the clothes on her back and fled. And
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  S5: when we met her, she was staying with a pastor
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  S5: and his family. Her her family had withdrawn her from
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  S5: university just a couple months shy of her degree. So
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  S5: she was like, I don't know what's going to happen
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  S5: to me. I don't know what the future holds. But
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  S5: she was trusting the Lord and she knew Emmanuel. God
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  S5: is with us.
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  S3: Wow.
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  S2: Wow. What a story. You know, when you when you
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  S2: think about like, for the person listening right now, you know,
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  S2: you hear about a day of the Christian martyr and
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  S2: you have some resources available on the website. But what,
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  S2: how can families, individuals or families really honor this day
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  S2: and make it something that's a faith building, meaningful thing?
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  S5: Yeah, we do have resources on the website. And this
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  S5: year we're actually telling the story of Perpetua, another young
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  S5: woman on 22 years old, who was martyred in the
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  S5: Roman outpost of Carthage in modern day Tunisia. You know
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  S5: what I hope happens to people as we hear these stories,
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  S5: as we think about them, is we look at somebody
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  S5: like Perpetua or like the apostle Paul and say, that
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  S5: person was ready to die to advance the gospel. They
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  S5: were ready, literally to lay down their lives to see
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  S5: someone come to know Jesus Christ. What am I willing
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  S5: to sacrifice? And for most of us in the United States, the.
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  S5: The worst case scenario for us when we share Jesus
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  S5: with someone is an awkward conversation. Like my neighbor when
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  S5: I talk about Jesus says, oh, you're one of those
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  S5: religious freaks. Like, like, that's the worst case scenario for
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  S5: most of us in in most cases. AM I willing
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  S5: to risk an awkward conversation when so many brothers and
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  S5: sisters around the world are risking their lives? That's the
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  S5: question we want to ask ourselves. And and I'm challenged
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  S5: by that question, and I suspect many of our listeners
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  S5: are challenged by that question. But that's really what it
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  S5: comes down to is, hey, these people lay down their lives.
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  S5: What would I risk to see the gospel advance in
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  S5: my city?
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  S2: Yeah, the story of Perpetua I on, I saw the
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  S2: video on on the website. Share that with our listeners,
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  S2: because this is a story from the early church, this
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  S2: 22 year old high society woman. Uh, tell us her story.
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  S5: 203AD and I mentioned Carthage, a Roman outpost, and she
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  S5: was arrested. The the order was given. You're going to
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  S5: worship the Roman gods, you're going to worship the emperor.
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  S5: And Perpetua said, and again, like you said, 22 years old,
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  S5: she was a wife. She had a baby. And yet
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  S5: she said, I'm not going to worship the Roman gods
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  S5: for that. She was put on trial, eventually sent to
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  S5: the Roman arena. A couple interesting things about her story.
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  S5: So her father actually comes to the prison with her
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  S5: baby and says, Perpetua, you don't have to mean it.
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  S5: Just just light the candle, say the words, and come
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  S5: home and raise your baby. It doesn't matter if you
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  S5: mean it or not. Just you're a mom. You got
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  S5: to take care of this child. And Perpetua famously said
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  S5: to her, dad, dad, I'm a Christian. You can't call
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  S5: me anything else other than Christian. I'm not going to
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  S5: worship the Roman gods. The reason we know her story,
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  S5: this is another amazing part. She kept a journal in
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  S5: prison and it is actually one of the oldest, maybe
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  S5: the oldest example we have of a woman's writing that
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  S5: has survived throughout history. So. So it's one of the
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  S5: oldest examples of a woman writing things down. And it
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  S5: was Perpetua writing about her faithfulness, writing about encouraging her
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  S5: fellow Christians, hey, stay strong, stay strong. And then when
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  S5: she was sent to the arena. So first they sent
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  S5: a rabid heifer, is what the word says. So like
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  S5: an ox to gore her, she was knocked down. Her
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  S5: clothes were torn. She. She quickly adjusted her robe to
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  S5: protect her modesty, and she also asked for a hairpin.
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  S5: And this is part. As a man, I'm like, why
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  S5: do you care about your hair in this situation? And
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  S5: but but in that culture, to have your hair disheveled,
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  S5: to have your hair down, that was a sign of mourning.
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  S5: And Perpetua wanted people to know, I'm not mourning, I'm
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  S5: not sad. I'm going to meet Jesus. And so she said, wait, wait, wait,
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  S5: I need a hairpin. I need to adjust my hair.
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  S5: And she got her hair back up. Ultimately, she was
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  S5: killed by a gladiator, but she took the sword and
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  S5: guided it to her throat. She was ready to go,
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  S5: ready to meet Jesus and ready to give her life.
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  S5: And again, 22 years old. Just an amazing story of faithfulness.
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  S2: Todd, thank you so much for sharing with us this morning.
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  S2: I want to point you to some resources I mentioned.
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  S2: There's this video and some other resources on the website,
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  S2: how to talk to kids about this day. A great
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  S2: conversation starter. Just text voice to 805 557898, text voice
• 16:53
  S2: to 805 557898. You can find more about voice of
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  S2: the Martyrs and Day of the Christian Martyr today, June 29th.
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  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 17:07
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 17:10
  S2: Whether it's a basket or a drop box, or one
• 17:13
  S2: of those old school gold offering plates that I grew
• 17:17
  S2: up with, most churches have some form of passing the
• 17:23
  S2: plate or in other ways, collecting money from people who attend,
• 17:28
  S2: offering tithes. There's certain procedures and processes and ways that
• 17:33
  S2: churches do this, but it's a big part of the service.
• 17:38
  S2: And so many people wonder, is the church trying to
• 17:42
  S2: get my money? We're tackling some of these tough questions
• 17:46
  S2: that people do ask. Rob West, I know you're not
• 17:50
  S2: you're not afraid to go after this one, right? Because
• 17:52
  S2: people say, let's do this.
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  S7: No, this is a great one.
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  S2: Okay, so let's start with acknowledging some of the ways
• 18:00
  S2: that we've seen this abused, because Carl will often talk
• 18:03
  S2: about the late night, you know, televangelist and who promises
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  S2: certain things. If you send in your gift, your seed
• 18:12
  S2: gift of this amount. This is what's going to happen
• 18:15
  S2: for you. And if you don't, oh, boy, better watch out.
• 18:19
  S2: There have been some abuses, uh, quite frankly, that we
• 18:23
  S2: can't ignore that maybe have contributed to some of the
• 18:26
  S2: skepticism people have around the church and money. Right.
• 18:29
  S7: I totally agree, and it's not just limited to televangelists.
• 18:35
  S7: You know, some churches have mishandled the subject of money,
• 18:38
  S7: which leaves people out, to your point, really skeptical. But
• 18:42
  S7: I think at its core, the church isn't after anyone's money.
• 18:46
  S7: It really is after hearts fully devoted to God. Remember
• 18:51
  S7: Jesus said, where your treasure is, there your heart will
• 18:53
  S7: be also. So it's really less about raising funds and
• 18:56
  S7: more about, I would say, raising faith. But keep in
• 19:00
  S7: mind that healthy teaching about money in the church should
• 19:03
  S7: never be manipulative. And that's where I think we've gone wrong.
• 19:07
  S7: In some cases, it really should point us to trust
• 19:11
  S7: in God's provision and an opportunity to invest in God's kingdom.
• 19:16
  S7: And it certainly isn't, you know, this idea of God
• 19:19
  S7: being a cosmic vending machine where I give something to
• 19:22
  S7: get something back, almost transactional. That's not the heart of
• 19:25
  S7: God that we see in Scripture.
• 19:27
  S2: Rob West, our guest right now, he's the host of
• 19:29
  S2: the nationally syndicated radio program Faith and Finance Live. You
• 19:33
  S2: hear it afternoons here on Moody Radio. Let's talk about
• 19:36
  S2: what the Bible does say about money a lot, right?
• 19:41
  S7: It really does. I mean, 2300 verses if you kind
• 19:43
  S7: of bucket them. I mean, some portion of those are
• 19:47
  S7: around the idea that God owns it all, which is
• 19:49
  S7: really the starting point of biblical money management, that I
• 19:52
  S7: then am a steward, uh, a manager of God's resources.
• 19:56
  S7: You know, secondly, we see this idea that spending reflects
• 19:59
  S7: our values. It demonstrates what I trust in and what's
• 20:03
  S7: important to me. We also see these wise principles of
• 20:06
  S7: managing God's money as well. But one of the clear
• 20:09
  S7: themes throughout the Old and New Testament is that we
• 20:13
  S7: are to be generous givers. And I think, you know,
• 20:15
  S7: that's where we get into this idea that we are
• 20:18
  S7: to support the work of the local church. I mean,
• 20:20
  S7: that's emphasized throughout Scripture, those who teach and preach the word.
• 20:25
  S7: The apostle Paul said, the Lord commanded that those who
• 20:28
  S7: proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. So,
• 20:32
  S7: you know, we even see this in Jesus ministry. Mary Magdalene, Joanna,
• 20:37
  S7: and Susanna, they financially supported Jesus and his disciples. You know,
• 20:41
  S7: they're giving help sustain not just the teachers, but the
• 20:46
  S7: whole traveling ministry. And we have the same opportunity today.
• 20:50
  S2: And, you know, when you think about the principle of generosity,
• 20:53
  S2: many people could can probably get behind that in theory. Yeah,
• 20:57
  S2: it's good to be generous, but you'll hear people say,
• 20:59
  S2: I would rather give my money to a, a specific
• 21:02
  S2: cause or to maybe individual people. I kind of want
• 21:06
  S2: to I want to make sure that my money is
• 21:07
  S2: utilized in a way that I can get on board with.
• 21:11
  S2: And so people sometimes bristle at the idea of money
• 21:15
  S2: being used to pay salaries or pay light bills, or
• 21:17
  S2: the practical things for the supporting of the local church.
• 21:20
  S2: But make the case for why that that is absolutely
• 21:23
  S2: a biblical use of money.
• 21:25
  S7: Well, we see this clearly in Scripture. You know, when
• 21:28
  S7: we give today, we're not just keeping the lights on,
• 21:31
  S7: although that's important or paying salaries, although that's clearly taught
• 21:35
  S7: in Scripture. You know, we're really fueling the mission of
• 21:38
  S7: the gospel. We're enabling discipleship and outreach and care for
• 21:42
  S7: those in need. You know, it's far from being about
• 21:45
  S7: what the church wants from me. Giving is really about
• 21:49
  S7: what God wants for us. Hearts that trust him, freedom
• 21:52
  S7: from the grip of money, and the joy of participating
• 21:56
  S7: in his kingdom work. But remember, this is the way
• 21:59
  S7: God designed it. The local church was his plan A,
• 22:03
  S7: and the way he intended it is for the body
• 22:06
  S7: to come together so that each doing his or her
• 22:09
  S7: part allows us to fund the work of God's ministry.
• 22:14
  S7: And it doesn't happen without us. And so I think
• 22:17
  S7: we need to understand that, yes, God owns the cattle
• 22:20
  S7: on a thousand hills. And yes, he could choose to
• 22:23
  S7: fund the church any way he wants. But in his plan,
• 22:27
  S7: he decided that we would come together and that would
• 22:30
  S7: be part of how the church is funded through our
• 22:33
  S7: open handed giving.
• 22:34
  S2: You know, how much of it do you think that
• 22:36
  S2: we are maybe challenged by people's understanding or maybe misunderstanding
• 22:40
  S2: of the church? Many people think of the church as
• 22:43
  S2: a particular building. When we know that the church is
• 22:46
  S2: really more about the people than the building. So when
• 22:49
  S2: people think about, I don't want to give my money
• 22:51
  S2: to the church, they're thinking of some some big institution
• 22:55
  S2: as opposed to a group of God's people.
• 22:59
  S7: Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, again, we see
• 23:01
  S7: this pattern throughout Scripture. I mean, in the Old Testament,
• 23:04
  S7: the tithe supported the priests and the temple and cared
• 23:07
  S7: for the poor. And in the New Testament, it was
• 23:09
  S7: the same thing. Believers shared their resources. It says in
• 23:12
  S7: acts four, and there was not a needy person among them.
• 23:16
  S7: What a beautiful picture of God's people coming together to
• 23:20
  S7: not only support and fund the work of the local church.
• 23:23
  S7: And that's lights and salaries and all of the things,
• 23:26
  S7: but also to care for those in need. I mean,
• 23:29
  S7: Paul also reminds us in Galatians six that the one
• 23:32
  S7: who receives instruction in the word should share all good
• 23:36
  S7: things with their instructor. So when we give, the church
• 23:39
  S7: can teach and disciple and reach the lost and care
• 23:42
  S7: for the vulnerable. And God invites us into that to
• 23:46
  S7: join him where he's at work. And so we need
• 23:49
  S7: to understand that our generosity actually fuels the church's ministry.
• 23:54
  S7: But it also reminds us that our ultimate treasure isn't
• 23:58
  S7: money at all. It's Christ himself.
• 24:00
  S2: You know, I have someone in my life who I
• 24:02
  S2: love dearly, who has been hurt and was hurt at
• 24:06
  S2: a point in their life by the church, some abuses,
• 24:09
  S2: some financial abuses. What do you say to people who
• 24:12
  S2: maybe have some distrust because of being burned or bad experiences?
• 24:17
  S2: We're still called to be generous. What's the what's the
• 24:20
  S2: best first step when you are approaching it with a
• 24:24
  S2: little bit of hurt?
• 24:25
  S7: Well, first of all, just acknowledge that that's real. And
• 24:27
  S7: there's a lot listening in our audience today who are
• 24:30
  S7: in that same position, and they have been hurt. And again,
• 24:34
  S7: I think we don't have a perfect record by any
• 24:37
  S7: means as the the local church in terms of handling
• 24:42
  S7: the subject of money, even the actual handling of money.
• 24:45
  S7: And so I get it. But I think we need
• 24:47
  S7: to lift our sights a bit and recognize that this
• 24:49
  S7: is a part of God's design. And ultimately, when we're giving,
• 24:53
  S7: we're giving as unto the Lord. You know, you may
• 24:56
  S7: not agree with every decision that's being made. And the
• 24:59
  S7: same is true when you pay your taxes, which Jesus
• 25:02
  S7: was very clear we should do. And it was often
• 25:05
  S7: when he was saying that it was under oppressive rule.
• 25:09
  S7: So we know that, as he was saying, this is
• 25:11
  S7: the way I've created it. This is the system. You know,
• 25:15
  S7: we do that even when there's decisions being made that
• 25:18
  S7: we don't agree with. Now, obviously, if it's contradictory to
• 25:21
  S7: the gospel, well then we need to make a decision there.
• 25:24
  S7: And we need to to not follow that lead. But
• 25:27
  S7: apart from that, you know, we need to give as
• 25:30
  S7: unto the Lord. And, you know, that's going to mean
• 25:32
  S7: that in some cases we're giving, you know, even after
• 25:36
  S7: we've had a difficult situation.
• 25:38
  S2: Rob West, our guest right now, host of Faith and
• 25:40
  S2: finance live. Just give a quick 32nd elevator pitch for
• 25:44
  S2: your show. We don't often do this, but there are
• 25:46
  S2: folks who listen in the morning who maybe don't listen
• 25:48
  S2: in the afternoon. Talk a little bit about what you're
• 25:50
  S2: doing on faith and finance.
• 25:52
  S7: Yeah. For Easter and three central every day on faith
• 25:55
  S7: and finance live. Here's my goal is just to come
• 25:58
  S7: alongside God's people, to be an encouragement to you, to
• 26:02
  S7: give you wise counsel, to answer your questions. Because I
• 26:05
  S7: recognize that the role you've been entrusted as a steward,
• 26:08
  S7: a manager of God's resources, is a high calling. And
• 26:12
  S7: there are so many questions about money. And so we
• 26:15
  S7: start with the heart of the gospel. What does God
• 26:18
  S7: say about how I should view money, how I should
• 26:20
  S7: handle it, how it will compete with my devotion to God.
• 26:23
  S7: But then, very practically, how do I answer those questions
• 26:26
  S7: I'm facing right now? And that's what we do each day.
• 26:29
  S2: They're very specific. I listen sometimes on my way to
• 26:32
  S2: pick up a kid from school, and he answers all
• 26:36
  S2: of your questions on finances. So go ahead and text
• 26:40
  S2: the word money. If you want the details, text money
• 26:42
  S2: to 805 557898. For more on Rob West and Faith
• 26:47
  S2: in finance, live text money to 805 557898.
• 26:53
  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to cast and Crew.
• 26:58
  S2: Well, her book was book of the Year by Christianity Today.
• 27:02
  S2: Confronting Christianity 12 hard questions for the World's Largest Religion.
• 27:07
  S2: She has taken a look. Our guest has taken a
• 27:09
  S2: look at some of those big questions, and we've been
• 27:12
  S2: tackling them this week and even last week. Rebecca McLaughlin,
• 27:15
  S2: our guest right now. Why has this become this has
• 27:18
  S2: kind of become your thing, answering tough questions about Christianity.
• 27:22
  S2: How did that become your thing?
• 27:24
  S8: Do you know, the thing I most care about in
• 27:25
  S8: the world is people coming to know Jesus and accepting
• 27:29
  S8: him as their Savior. And I grew up in the UK,
• 27:31
  S8: where I was surrounded by a lot of really smart,
• 27:35
  S8: well-educated people who had seemingly really good reasons for not
• 27:38
  S8: even considering. Jesus and I now live in Cambridge, Massachusetts,
• 27:41
  S8: where I'm also surrounded by people like that who think
• 27:44
  S8: that the claims of Jesus are just not on the
• 27:46
  S8: table for them because of all these all these reasons
• 27:49
  S8: that they have for not considering who Jesus might be.
• 27:52
  S8: And so in order for them to, I guess, have
• 27:55
  S8: some of those barriers taken down, I've wanted to look
• 27:58
  S8: at those questions and, and what I've discovered is with
• 28:01
  S8: each of the big kind of objections to Christianity, what
• 28:03
  S8: looks at first like a roadblock. Actually, when you look
• 28:06
  S8: more closely, it becomes a signpost to faith in Jesus.
• 28:08
  S2: What were the roadblocks for you in your own personal
• 28:11
  S2: journey of coming to faith in Christ?
• 28:13
  S8: You know, I'm thankful for the fact that I was
• 28:15
  S8: raised in a family that was going to church in London,
• 28:18
  S8: where I mostly grew up. And so I was I
• 28:20
  S8: was pretty sure about Jesus from very early on, but
• 28:23
  S8: I was also from an early age, I mean, probably
• 28:26
  S8: like when I was ten, 11, 12 kind of age,
• 28:29
  S8: being confronted by questions from friends who, who didn't know
• 28:32
  S8: Jesus and thought that whether it was sort of science
• 28:35
  S8: has disproved Christianity or whether Christianity is responsible for for
• 28:40
  S8: racism and the history of slavery, or whether it was
• 28:43
  S8: what Christians teach and believe about sex being oppressive or, um,
• 28:48
  S8: you know, just not believable in the modern world. I
• 28:50
  S8: was sort of grappling with those questions from an early age.
• 28:53
  S8: I think, to be honest, it was it was obvious
• 28:55
  S8: to me from that stage that actually Jesus had the
• 28:58
  S8: best answers to all these questions. So it didn't feel
• 29:02
  S8: like they were really kind of hazarding my faith, but
• 29:05
  S8: more that I had. Yeah, I just had had homework
• 29:07
  S8: to do to help friends see why Jesus is still
• 29:10
  S8: plausibly the Savior of the world even today.
• 29:12
  S2: Yeah. You know, one of the big ones that we, uh,
• 29:15
  S2: have to tackle head on in today's culture is conversations around,
• 29:20
  S2: around gender, around sex, around what it means to be
• 29:25
  S2: a man or what it means to be a woman.
• 29:27
  S2: And many people claim that the Bible, the Christian worldview
• 29:33
  S2: is homophobic or somehow, um, denigrates people in certain categories
• 29:39
  S2: who consider themselves belonging to certain categories. Speak to that
• 29:43
  S2: a little bit. That's a big one you go after
• 29:44
  S2: in your book.
• 29:45
  S8: Yeah. So part of my story is that from as
• 29:48
  S8: early as I can remember, having kind of romantic or,
• 29:50
  S8: you know, attractions to people, they were directed toward other women.
• 29:54
  S8: So other, other girls when I was, was young and
• 29:56
  S8: other women as I, as I grew older. So I
• 29:59
  S8: haven't been somebody who's kind of come to the Bible
• 30:01
  S8: hoping that it will confirm that, in fact, Christians can't
• 30:05
  S8: enter into same sex marriages, for example. You know, at
• 30:08
  S8: one stage in my life, I'd have been more than
• 30:09
  S8: happy to find that there was room in a biblical
• 30:11
  S8: understanding for same sex marriage. The more I've looked at
• 30:14
  S8: what the Bible actually says, the more sure I become
• 30:18
  S8: that it says actually a very clear no to any
• 30:20
  S8: sexual or romantic relationships outside of male female marriage. But
• 30:24
  S8: I've also become more aware of the big story and
• 30:27
  S8: the big love story that the Bible is telling through
• 30:31
  S8: the creation of human beings in the first place. Male
• 30:33
  S8: and female, the institution of marriage, the God made it
• 30:37
  S8: possible for us to to get married and have children, etc..
• 30:40
  S8: That actually, in biblical terms, this is all about Jesus's
• 30:42
  S8: relationship with his people. If we start even in the
• 30:45
  S8: Old Testament, God is so often compared to a loving,
• 30:47
  S8: faithful husband and his people, the Israelites who are often
• 30:51
  S8: unfaithful wife. And when Jesus steps onto the stage of
• 30:54
  S8: human history, one of the strange things he says about
• 30:56
  S8: himself is that he is the bridegroom. Like he's the
• 30:58
  S8: husband and somebody you know, never married in his life
• 31:02
  S8: on earth. It seems like a strange thing to say,
• 31:03
  S8: but Jesus is is stepping into the shoes of the
• 31:06
  S8: creator God revealed in the Old Testament saying, I'm actually
• 31:08
  S8: I'm the husband. I've come to claim God's people for myself.
• 31:11
  S8: And we see in Paul's letter to the Ephesians in
• 31:13
  S8: the New Testament, Paul explains that Christian marriage is actually
• 31:16
  S8: meant to be a kind of lived out picture of
• 31:19
  S8: Jesus's love for his people. And so at the center
• 31:22
  S8: of what the Bible has to say about male and female,
• 31:24
  S8: about sex and marriage, is actually this love story between
• 31:27
  S8: Jesus and his people. And once we get that piece
• 31:29
  S8: in the center, other things start to make actually a
• 31:32
  S8: whole lot more sense, including the fact that as Christians,
• 31:36
  S8: it's not that I. For example, as a follower of Jesus.
• 31:39
  S8: It's not that I'm not called to deep loving relationships
• 31:42
  S8: with other Christians who are who are women, I actually am.
• 31:45
  S8: If we read the New Testament, we'll see time and
• 31:47
  S8: again people. Christians being commanded to love their brothers and
• 31:51
  S8: sisters in Christ. It's actually a much bigger theme in
• 31:54
  S8: the New Testament than even marriage and parenting is. And
• 31:57
  S8: so as somebody who, you know, left to my own devices,
• 32:00
  S8: I might well have ended up in a sort of
• 32:01
  S8: legal same sex marriage, but as a follower of Jesus instead,
• 32:05
  S8: I'm married to happily married to a man of three
• 32:08
  S8: delightful children. But whether I was single or married, sort
• 32:11
  S8: of almost beside the point, as a follower of Jesus,
• 32:13
  S8: I'm called to rich, deep love relationships with my fellow Christians.
• 32:18
  S8: In fact, that's one of the things when Jesus says,
• 32:20
  S8: this is how people are going to know that you're
• 32:22
  S8: his disciples, it's because of our love for one another.
• 32:25
  S8: So I think the church and people who stand on
• 32:27
  S8: the Bible as their authority is something that I would
• 32:30
  S8: want to do, actually have a more beautiful, Richer vision
• 32:35
  S8: for true love than anything that the world outside the
• 32:39
  S8: church has to offer.
• 32:40
  S2: Yeah. Rebecca McLaughlin, our guest right now. Her her book,
• 32:43
  S2: Confronting Christianity 12 Hard Questions for the World's Largest Religion
• 32:47
  S2: was a book of the year back in 2019. You know,
• 32:51
  S2: you mentioned the word love quite a bit. And we
• 32:53
  S2: know that God is love. That often gets used as
• 32:57
  S2: a a reason why we should affirm same sex marriage,
• 33:01
  S2: same sex relationships with the argument being because God is love,
• 33:05
  S2: doesn't God affirm any expression of love that feels right
• 33:10
  S2: to me?
• 33:11
  S8: It's fascinating. Again, if you read the New Testament, you
• 33:14
  S8: will find this very strong theme of God's love for
• 33:17
  S8: us and how that's to be manifested into our love
• 33:19
  S8: for one another. So, for example, in John's first letter
• 33:22
  S8: in the New Testament, he says, this is how we
• 33:24
  S8: know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down his life
• 33:27
  S8: for us. And so we ought also to lay down
• 33:29
  S8: our lives for the brothers and sisters, you know, for
• 33:32
  S8: our brothers and sisters in Christ. So. So yes, the
• 33:34
  S8: Bible says that God is love and that we need
• 33:37
  S8: to we need to love other people. But the Bible
• 33:40
  S8: also has a view of human nature. And in fact,
• 33:43
  S8: what comes out of our hearts. And this is Jesus himself.
• 33:46
  S8: He says that all sorts of of sinful things actually
• 33:49
  S8: come out of our hearts. And one of those simple
• 33:52
  S8: things that Jesus lists in the Gospels is, is a
• 33:55
  S8: word that's often translated as sexual immorality, a sort of
• 33:57
  S8: Greek word that's a catch all term for any sex
• 34:00
  S8: outside of male female marriage. And so the fact that,
• 34:02
  S8: for example, I'm somebody who I could look into my
• 34:04
  S8: heart and see, oh, well, look, there are these these
• 34:07
  S8: desires for same sex, sexual or romantic relationships that from
• 34:10
  S8: a Christian perspective, doesn't mean those desires are good just
• 34:13
  S8: because they come out of my heart, because all sorts
• 34:15
  S8: of bad things come out of my heart, but I'm
• 34:17
  S8: nonetheless called. I'm called at the same time to sort
• 34:20
  S8: of repent of all the sinful desires that come out
• 34:21
  S8: of my heart, whether it's sort of greed or lust
• 34:24
  S8: or cruelty or, you know, all the things. And I'm
• 34:27
  S8: called to lean into the love of God for me.
• 34:30
  S8: And that love reflected in love for other people. And
• 34:33
  S8: if you look in the New Testament, often you will
• 34:35
  S8: find these kind of lists of good things that Christians
• 34:38
  S8: are called to and bad things that Christians are not
• 34:39
  S8: called to. At the top of the list of bad
• 34:42
  S8: things is often sexual immorality of all kinds, including same
• 34:45
  S8: sex sexual relationships. At the top of the list are
• 34:48
  S8: the good things is love. Time and again. So actually,
• 34:52
  S8: as Christians, we don't have an understanding of love that
• 34:54
  S8: affirms all of our desires, whatever they are. Instead, we
• 34:58
  S8: have a definition of love that comes from from God Himself,
• 35:01
  S8: and that we need to sort of submit ourselves to that.
• 35:03
  S8: And if we do that, we actually find more love
• 35:06
  S8: than if we just followed our desires in the first place.
• 35:08
  S2: Right. Because, you know, one thing that our my co-host
• 35:12
  S2: Carl often says is that, you know, God doesn't just
• 35:14
  S2: give us commands that aren't linked to a greater why.
• 35:19
  S2: So God's call that a man would leave his family,
• 35:22
  S2: his mother and his father and cleave to his wife
• 35:24
  S2: and that the two would become one, and that anything
• 35:28
  S2: outside of that love relationship, that marriage relationship between a
• 35:32
  S2: man and one woman that that's actually a God's good
• 35:35
  S2: plan for us, that God's commands are ultimately for our good,
• 35:40
  S2: even if they conflict with our. As you said, what
• 35:43
  S2: can sometimes can be sin tainted desires to speak to
• 35:47
  S2: the goodness of what God's called us to, which often
• 35:50
  S2: gets lost in the discussion around the things that people
• 35:53
  S2: focus on God excluding.
• 35:55
  S8: It's true that we are called to love many people
• 35:58
  S8: outside of a marriage relationship, but that sex is specific
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  S8: to the marriage relationship in a Christian understanding. And so
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  S8: there are yard signs all around my neighborhood in Cambridge, Massachusetts,
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  S8: that will say love is love. And by that they
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  S8: mean that a sort of sexual or romantic relationship between
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  S8: two people of the same sex is just as valid
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  S8: as between two people of the opposite sex. And as
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  S8: a Christian, I'd want to say firstly, a no to
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  S8: that because of the Bible's clear no to any same
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  S8: sex sexual relationships of any kind. But I'd also want
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  S8: to say a kind of yes to that, in that
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  S8: love is something that should flow out of a Christian,
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  S8: but it's not by our definition of love. So if
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  S8: the yard signs say that love is love, the Bible
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  S8: says that God is love, and he's given us actually
• 36:40
  S8: different kinds of relationship to give us different sort of
• 36:43
  S8: aspects reflect different aspects of his love for us. Marriage
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  S8: is one of them, and parent child relationships are another one.
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  S8: You know, often we call God our Father because that's
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  S8: what the the Bible calls us to do. And so
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  S8: in the best human father, we would find a little
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  S8: echo of God's love for us. But we wouldn't want
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  S8: that to be a sexual relationship by any means. And likewise, God,
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  S8: often in the Old Testament especially, will use metaphors connected
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  S8: with motherhood. The prophet Isaiah, God says to his people,
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  S8: can a mother forget the baby at her breast and
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  S8: have no compassion on the child she is born, though
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  S8: she may forget, I will not forget you. You know
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  S8: God saying I love you more than a nursing mother
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  S8: loves her baby. But that's not a sexual relationship. That's
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  S8: an intimate relationship. It's not a sexual one, right? And likewise,
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  S8: the biblical vision for friendship is not a sexual vision.
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  S8: And that's where kind of same sex love sort of
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  S8: fits in. It's not an exclusive vision. It's not a
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  S8: sexual vision, but it is a deep and rich vision.
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  S8: And in fact, Jesus, on the night he was betrayed
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  S8: to his death by one of his closest friends, said,
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  S8: this is my commandment, that you love one another as
• 37:40
  S8: I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this,
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  S8: that he lay down his life for his friends.
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  S2: Rebecca McLaughlin, our guest right now. Along those same lines,
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  S2: as people have conversations about relationships, people will often criticize
• 37:53
  S2: the Bible because what they believe it says about women.
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  S2: Another question that you tackle in your book. Does the
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  S2: Bible denigrate women?
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  S8: No, the Bible is actually well, I'm fond of saying
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  S8: Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to women.
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  S8: And I would I would stand by that claim, honestly,
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  S8: even if I were not a Christian, just by looking
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  S8: at the evidence. So let's do another kind of very
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  S8: brief whistle stop tour through the Bible. In the beginning,
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  S8: God creates humans, male and female. In Genesis chapter one,
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  S8: first chapter of the Bible, and both male and female
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  S8: in his image, and actually gives both men and women
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  S8: the command to be fruitful and multiply, to fill the earth,
• 38:30
  S8: to rule over his creation unto him. So from the
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  S8: first we have this picture of man and woman, both
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  S8: equally made in God's image, which is. It sort of
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  S8: feels like common sense to us, but it would have
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  S8: been very radical in the ancient world into which it
• 38:40
  S8: was written. This idea of men and women are sort
• 38:42
  S8: of fundamentally equally imaging God. And then in Genesis two,
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  S8: when we see God making one man and one woman,
• 38:48
  S8: what we see is a description of the woman as
• 38:50
  S8: being the Hebrew word sort of means like opposite the man.
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  S8: So she's described as sort of being in many ways
• 38:56
  S8: the same as the man. You sort of cut from
• 38:58
  S8: the same cloth. The man says, this is now bone
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  S8: of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She should
• 39:02
  S8: be called woman. But also opposite, because our bodies are
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  S8: designed in such a way that it's not just that
• 39:08
  S8: we're different, but we are kind of different in a
• 39:09
  S8: way that enables us together to have children, etc.. Right.
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  S8: And we see as you look through the Bible, you
• 39:15
  S8: see this, this vision for women as equal to men
• 39:19
  S8: in their imaging of God and equal to men in
• 39:21
  S8: their ability to be in relationship with the God of
• 39:24
  S8: all the universe. And we see that so clearly in
• 39:26
  S8: Jesus's relationships with women throughout the Gospels. I read a
• 39:29
  S8: whole book about that because it's just sort of it's
• 39:31
  S8: just so beautiful how Jesus relates to women, even even
• 39:33
  S8: in fact, especially the kind of women everybody else at
• 39:36
  S8: his time would have despised and wanted nothing to do
• 39:38
  S8: with the women known for sexual immorality, or the women
• 39:40
  S8: who were sort of from another racial or religious group
• 39:42
  S8: the Jews of his day would have despised. Like, those
• 39:44
  S8: are the kinds of people, the kinds of women Jesus
• 39:46
  S8: is validating and, and welcoming in. We don't see in
• 39:49
  S8: the New Testament a kind of vision of, you know,
• 39:52
  S8: this is what men are like and this is what
• 39:54
  S8: women are like. And so act like this. We actually
• 39:56
  S8: see again, it's all tied back to Jesus's relationship with
• 39:59
  S8: his church. How men and women are to relate in marriage,
• 40:02
  S8: for instance, is all about Jesus and his people. And
• 40:04
  S8: both men and women are actually called to the self-same
• 40:07
  S8: sort of virtues in the New Testament. It's not like,
• 40:09
  S8: you know, famously there's a list of the fruit of
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  S8: the spirit as what Christians are meant to be like,
• 40:15
  S8: you know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 40:18
  S8: It's there's not a separate list for men and for women,
• 40:20
  S8: because actually Christian men and women are called to many
• 40:22
  S8: of the self-same things, albeit in very specific contexts like
• 40:25
  S8: marriage and certain positions in the church to To differentiated roles.
• 40:29
  S8: But we see even, especially in this vision of Christian
• 40:32
  S8: marriage as reflecting Jesus's love for his people. People often
• 40:35
  S8: listen only to what's said to wives. Paul and his
• 40:38
  S8: letter to the Ephesians says, wives, submit to your husbands
• 40:40
  S8: as the Lord, for the husband, as the head of
• 40:42
  S8: the wife, as Christ, as the head of the church.
• 40:43
  S8: And we think, oh my goodness, like that. What a
• 40:45
  S8: mandate for the oppression of women. We don't read the
• 40:49
  S8: next verse which says, husbands, love your wives, as Christ
• 40:52
  S8: loved the church and gave himself up for her. I mean,
• 40:54
  S8: so how did Christ loved the church and gave himself?
• 40:56
  S8: This is Jesus dying on the cross. Like husbands are
• 40:59
  S8: meant to love their wives, like Jesus being crucified for
• 41:02
  S8: his people. Wow. That's not a mandate for oppression or domination,
• 41:05
  S8: or for a wife having to accommodate all her husband's
• 41:08
  S8: needs and preferences. Actually, kind of the opposite. It's saying,
• 41:11
  S8: husbands lay down your lives for your wives. Like, love
• 41:14
  S8: them like Jesus loves us. I mean, what a what
• 41:18
  S8: an extraordinary picture. And one of the, the, the radical
• 41:22
  S8: innovations that sort of springs out of that is that
• 41:25
  S8: Christian sexual ethics cause men and women to the exact
• 41:28
  S8: same thing sex only in male female marriage. Whereas in
• 41:31
  S8: the ancient world the Bible was was written to, it
• 41:33
  S8: was considered absolutely fine for a Greek or Roman man
• 41:35
  S8: to sleep with slaves or prostitutes of either sex that
• 41:38
  S8: didn't disrupt. You weren't being unfaithful to your wife by
• 41:40
  S8: sleeping with a slave or a prostitute. That was all
• 41:43
  S8: well and good. Christianity says no, no, no sex only
• 41:46
  S8: in marriage and every human being counts, whether they're male
• 41:48
  S8: or female, whether they're enslaved or free, whatever racial or
• 41:52
  S8: ethnic background they come from, everybody actually is equal in
• 41:55
  S8: God's eyes. And so you can't use somebody like they
• 41:57
  S8: don't matter. So yeah, that's a brief yes, a brief
• 42:01
  S8: starting point.
• 42:02
  S2: Really appreciate it. Rebecca McLaughlin, you've done a great work here.
• 42:06
  S2: The book Confronting Christianity 12 Hard Questions for the World's
• 42:09
  S2: Largest Religion. There is more where that came from. We
• 42:13
  S2: tackled two questions out of the 12. Just text 12.
• 42:16
  S2: If you want more details (800) 555-7898. Spell out the word
• 42:21
  S2: for me so you get the reply, just text 12
• 42:24
  S2: to 805 557898.