Latest / Best of Business / Richard Easther: Auckland University physics professor on the potential impact of the Government's proposed changes to the science sector

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Richard Easther: Auckland University physics professor on the potential impact of the Government's proposed changes to the science sector · Best of Business

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed Be
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  Speaker 2: So this week we had major changes to the science
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  Speaker 2: sector announced by the government, one of the hopes being
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  Speaker 2: the reforms will boost the economic performance of the industry.
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  Speaker 2: There has however, been concerned in science circles with the
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  Speaker 2: announcement bringing no additional funding, including funding to implement the
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  Speaker 2: plane the planned changes. So will the changes boost economic
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  Speaker 2: performance and can the science sector function and implement these
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  Speaker 2: changes on current funding. To discuss this, I'm joined by
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  Speaker 2: the Auckland University professor Richard Ester. He's with me now.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning, Richard, Thank you for your time.
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  Speaker 3: And good morning.
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  Speaker 2: So tell me will these reforms help to boost the
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  Speaker 2: economic performance of the sector.
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  Speaker 3: They might think it's probably there, Huns. I mean, I
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  Speaker 3: think it's good to take a step back and say that,
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  Speaker 3: you know, everybody who works in science, I think believes
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  Speaker 3: that what they do or should you know, contribute to
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  Speaker 3: the well being of society and obviously that you know
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  Speaker 3: that's bordered than the economy itself, but there is a
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  Speaker 3: shared goal, you know, making a positive contributions. I think
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  Speaker 3: the problem here is that it is quite a big
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  Speaker 3: up people, not for science necessarily as a whole immediately,
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  Speaker 3: although there are more things coming, but in particular focuses
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  Speaker 3: on the shape of the Crown Research Institutes. And the
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  Speaker 3: thing that strikes me looking at this is that, you know,
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  Speaker 3: everyone thinks, oh, you know, science should contribute to the economy.
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  Speaker 3: But the Crown Research Institute were formally at DSIR, you know,
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  Speaker 3: which all the people may remember from when they were kids,
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  Speaker 3: and that was broken up to form the CRIS and
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  Speaker 3: THETAI was founded in nineteen twenty six to boost the economy.
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  Speaker 3: So it's science isn't boosting the economy. It's not because
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  Speaker 3: we don't want it. It's because we haven't figured out
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  Speaker 3: how to make that work. So the devil is very
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  Speaker 3: much in details. And so the challenge here, I think
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  Speaker 3: is that they want to, you know, bring about major
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  Speaker 3: changes in the way these organizations are structured. But that's
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  Speaker 3: going to cost money and there's no there's no clar
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  Speaker 3: about where the money to do that. It's only come from.
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  Speaker 2: Is the economic performance of science harder to determine than
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  Speaker 2: other sectors?
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  Speaker 3: It is, I mean, I think, particularly in New Zealand,
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  Speaker 3: I think the government of successive governments have taken a
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  Speaker 3: very narrow view of what counts's economic performance. Oh, you know,
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  Speaker 3: we fund this and we get that, whereas a lot
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  Speaker 3: of times if you look at really big success stories
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  Speaker 3: and science, you know, we funded one thing, we got
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  Speaker 3: another thing, and that leads to something else, and that
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  Speaker 3: leads to something else, and it's you know, it's two
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  Speaker 3: or three, something else is down the line that is
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  Speaker 3: actually the thing that makes a huge difference. So a
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  Speaker 3: case and points in New Zealand is, you know, one
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  Speaker 3: of our biggest science stories right now is that there
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  Speaker 3: are people in upper huts who are trying to build
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  Speaker 3: a nuclear fusion reaction, like a working nuclear fusion reactor,
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  Speaker 3: which is an awesome story and something that we also
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  Speaker 3: should feel proud that we're able to do in New Zealand.
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  Speaker 3: But the special source that goes into that is actually
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  Speaker 3: sort of magnet technology that was started here in the
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  Speaker 3: nineteen nineties, and so it turns out we're particularly good
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  Speaker 3: at making it a sticular kind of magnet. And then people
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  Speaker 3: who funded that in the nineteen nineties were certainly not
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  Speaker 3: thinking about, you know, nuclear fusion in the twenty twenties,
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  Speaker 3: and I think that that long an unexpected way that
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  Speaker 3: science can delve a value. There's something that something that
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  Speaker 3: is frequently left out.
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  Speaker 2: So research it can take a lot of time in
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  Speaker 2: some cases, and the benefit isn't always immediate, so had.
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  Speaker 3: To Yeah, And the bigger the benefit and the more
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  Speaker 3: profound the change, often the longer it's going to take.
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  Speaker 2: Have this government and previous governments given the sect or
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  Speaker 2: what it needs when it comes to funding. Is science
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  Speaker 2: valued enough in New Zealand?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's a kind of New Yark
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  Speaker 3: reaction here, which is, you know, an any people working
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  Speaker 3: in pretty much any job, including I'm sure news would say, oh, yes,
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  Speaker 3: you know, we would do more with you would do
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  Speaker 3: better worth more resource. I think, so I want to
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  Speaker 3: avoid simply simply saying that. On the other hand, if
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  Speaker 3: you look at the way that science is funded in
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  Speaker 3: New Zealand by buying industry and by government with at
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  Speaker 3: a very low end of raximus of total economics relative
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  Speaker 3: to the countries that we would like to compare ourselves to,
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  Speaker 3: you know, say Finland or a Singapore or someone like that.
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  Speaker 3: So I think I think it is true that science
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  Speaker 3: has has been doing a lot with less in New Zealand,
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  Speaker 3: and so it's hard to necessarily see how you'll get
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  Speaker 3: more productivity without without more inputance.
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  Speaker 2: But that was my experience. So can we do more
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  Speaker 2: with less?
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  Speaker 3: I think I think there are questions. I mean one
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  Speaker 3: of the biggest things for me gets back to the
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  Speaker 3: short termism of a lot of government thinking around science,
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  Speaker 3: and that is that you know, if we if we
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  Speaker 3: are resource constrained, then the most important thing is that
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  Speaker 3: we make good decisions about where to spend our resource.
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  Speaker 3: And so the reform that we're announced recently, you know,
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  Speaker 3: part of a much bigger package of reform DAN has
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  Speaker 3: been put together by the Science Sector Advisory Group and
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  Speaker 3: so so they're talking, for instance, about having a Ministry
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  Speaker 3: of Science which is separate from MB, which is you know,
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  Speaker 3: which was swallowed up by MB when it was set up.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that, for instance, would be critical. I
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  Speaker 3: think MB doesn't necessarily make good decisions about the way
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  Speaker 3: that resources are allocated, and in some cases it's made
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  Speaker 3: I think, very poor decisions. And I think if there
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  Speaker 3: was more collaborations between ministry officials in a new ministry
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  Speaker 3: and expertise in the science sector, I think that would
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  Speaker 3: lead to better outcomes. And would be probably closer to
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  Speaker 3: what we see in countries that do do this this
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  Speaker 3: more successfully.
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  Speaker 2: So is that what's kind of needed for this particular
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  Speaker 2: restructure to work because we've we've restructured and changed the
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  Speaker 2: sector before. But you know, we've got to learn from
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  Speaker 2: from that process, don't we I went right, and what
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  Speaker 2: you know, how it improved things and how things sort
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  Speaker 2: of didn't.
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  Speaker 3: Improve and looking and I think looking at other places
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  Speaker 3: that are doing a better job, I think I think
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  Speaker 3: would be critical. And I think I think part of
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  Speaker 3: it is just as a often a lack of trust
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  Speaker 3: between government and the science sector, so they turn everything
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  Speaker 3: into it into a competition, and we spend a lot
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  Speaker 3: of time competing with each other sometimes rather than getting
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  Speaker 3: things done, which is not always productive.
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  Speaker 2: Richard, there's a lot of talk about what the Science
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  Speaker 2: System Advisory Group report called exploitable research. But will we
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  Speaker 2: still be focusing as well on stewardship research and policy
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  Speaker 2: focused research and knowledge knowledge generating research.
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  Speaker 3: I think it's I mean, I think the exploitable research
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  Speaker 3: is often very short term, but I mean, you know,
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  Speaker 3: if you have someone who comes up, you know with
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  Speaker 3: a better brig of kiwi fruit, for instance, I mean
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  Speaker 3: that that is undoubtedly something that that there you know,
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  Speaker 3: that topic sector science is working on. You know how
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  Speaker 3: you said that relative to somebody who does a better
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  Speaker 3: job of understanding this quackris And both of those things
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  Speaker 3: are critical to the economy. But one of them is,
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  Speaker 3: you know, buying insurance in some sense, and the other
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  Speaker 3: one is making a positive investment. And so I think
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  Speaker 3: it is it is it is dangerous to be chasing
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  Speaker 3: those short term wins. And the other question is is
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  Speaker 3: the shorter term it becomes, the more you would expect
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  Speaker 3: industry to be investing in that. You know, so there's
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  Speaker 3: a very clear return and you know the risk is accessible.
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  Speaker 3: Then that is you know that that is an area
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  Speaker 3: where you would expect the private sector to be come
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  Speaker 3: investing with government, whereas in many cases government will be
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  Speaker 3: expected to invest in things where you can't immediately identify
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  Speaker 3: where the benefit it's going to be.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Well, what's how science been like compared to other countries?
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  Speaker 3: Low And there's a very nice thing to download the report.
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  Speaker 3: There's a graph therest most of the countries to the
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  Speaker 3: left of us, and you know, and then they're categorizing
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  Speaker 3: both private sector and public sector investment in science, the
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  Speaker 3: countries of the sort of the wrong side of us
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  Speaker 3: on both of those numbers, and generally places that we
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  Speaker 3: wouldn't want to emulate.
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  Speaker 2: Richard, I've heard from a few people in science who've
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  Speaker 2: made the comment over the last year that they didn't
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  Speaker 2: feel that Judith Collins had a huge amount of enthusiasm
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  Speaker 2: for science. How do you feel about Shane RETTI?
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  Speaker 3: I think that's a complex question. I mean, firstally, the
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  Speaker 3: to the I mean, Collins is enormously enthusiastic. I sung
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  Speaker 3: at times it was clear that she wasn't you know,
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  Speaker 3: that that she'd spoken to someone who told us something
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  Speaker 3: and she'd been enthusiastic about it, but she didn't she
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  Speaker 3: doesn't know. She's also has you know, portfolios that bring
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  Speaker 3: her legal experience to bear, and it's clear there that
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  Speaker 3: she has, you know, a greater depth of knowledge and experience.
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  Speaker 3: So I think she was definitely enthusiastic. But I didn't
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  Speaker 3: always see the sort of deep judgment that I might
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  Speaker 3: have wanted. I mean, really has a background in science,
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  Speaker 3: you know, or the broadly specting as a medical professional.
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  Speaker 3: You know, he's spent time and then the elite institutions overseas
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  Speaker 3: that that generally do science in a positive way, so
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  Speaker 3: we would be hoping.
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  Speaker 2: I think Richard really appreciate your time this morning. Thank
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  Speaker 2: you so much. That was Augland University Professor Richard Easter.
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