Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Frazer Gregory about his choice of The Happiness Patrol (1/3)

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Talks to Frazer Gregory about his choice of The Happiness Patrol (1/3) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:27
Can't get away, Helen A. There's a scheduled flight in an
0:32
hour. You can't stop me, Doctor.
0:35
Oh, I know I can't. But it's not me.
0:37
You're on a bucket. Let's start again.
0:41
You can't get away. Helen A.
0:44
There's a scheduled flight in an hour.
0:46
You can't stop me, Doctor. Oh, I know I can't, but it's not
0:49
me you're running away from. Who is it then?
0:52
Yourself, and that's why you'll never escape.
0:56
They didn't understand me. Oh, they understood you only too
1:01
well. That's why they resisted you.
1:04
I only wanted the best for them. The best prisons, death squads,
1:10
executions. They only came later.
1:14
I told them to be happy, but they wouldn't listen.
1:18
I gave them every chance. Oh, I know they laughed
1:23
sometimes, but they still cried. They still wept.
1:28
Don't you ever feel like weeping, Helenae?
1:31
Of course not, Doctor. It's unnecessary and those that
1:36
persisted are to be punished. Why?
1:41
But the good of the majority, but the ones that wanted to be
1:45
happy, who wanted to take the opportunities that I gave them.
1:50
And what were those opportunities you gave them?
1:53
A bag of sweets? A few tawdry party games?
1:56
Bland, soulless music? Do these things make you happy?
2:00
Of course they don't, because they're cosmetic.
2:03
Happiness is nothing unless it exists side by side with
2:07
sadness. Two sides, one coin.
2:14
You can keep your coin, doctor, and your sadness.
2:18
I'll go somewhere else. I'll find somewhere where there
2:21
is no sadness, a place where people know how to enjoy
2:26
themselves. Oh, I'm sure you will, Helen A.
2:30
Place where people are strong, where they hold back the tears.
2:34
A place where people pull themselves together.
2:37
Where there is no compassion. Where there is control.
2:42
Space where there is no love. I always thought love was
2:47
overrated. Welcome.
2:50
Back to a hamster with a blunt hen knife.
2:53
The Doctor Who Commentary podcast and there's a a small
2:59
peek into why Sheila Hancock and Sylvester McCoy played out this
3:04
confrontation in Happiness Patrol episode 3 and not Joe
3:09
Ford and Fraser. Gregory Fraser, how are you?
3:13
I'm very good, Joe, how are you? Joe, I thought you were doing
3:17
more of it when Johnny Field him played the despot in Sylvester
3:21
Mccoy's audition piece. Yes, that you sounded just like
3:24
her, but I do think actually I think Helena may have been based
3:29
on that character because that was supposed to be that very
3:32
Thatcherite character. Yes, yeah, that's, that's who
3:36
Sheila Hancock was going for, wasn't it?
3:38
Margaret Thatcher. Oh, there's a wonderful bit on
3:41
the documentary where Andrew Cartmel says, look, you can't
3:44
say it, Graham Curry, all right, you cannot say it.
3:48
So like he goes, took adventure with Sheila Hancock and they've
3:50
all got their hands up going. Is Helena based on Margaret
3:54
Thatcher? And he's going, oh, no, no, no,
3:55
no, Sheila Hancock's looking at him going.
3:57
Of course she was. Well, that's who I was playing
4:00
in it. What are you talking about?
4:03
Of course, we are here today to talk about the Happiness Patrol,
4:08
our story. I think we both have huge
4:11
thoughts on I am under the understanding that this is your
4:18
favorite Doctor Who story of all time.
4:23
Yes, yes it is. It's the favorite.
4:27
Be favorite. It came top of my list of 60
4:30
greatest and stories of Doctor Who in the last 60 years.
4:35
It's it's the best. It's my favorite.
4:37
It's the ping of the hill. I mean, I've only got 1 real
4:40
question for you then why? It's just got everything.
4:47
It's got everything. You know what, what, what makes
4:50
something a favorite? What?
4:51
What does favorite mean to you, Joe?
4:53
That's a that's a tough question to ask actually, because I've
4:57
got lots of favourites for different reasons.
4:59
You know, I've got my favorite camp classic Doctor Who.
5:02
I've got my favorite historical, I've got my favorite urban
5:06
drama, Doctor Who, all time favorite.
5:12
I know, favorite and best are two different things, aren't
5:15
they? They are.
5:16
They are because you know you're going to have your guilty
5:18
pleasures like the dominators, where you know I'm never going
5:21
to. It's.
5:22
Just a Commission now, thanks to you.
5:24
Yeah, but you know, it's it's never going to win any awards as
5:27
the greatest. It will be a favorite, but it's
5:29
never going to be the best because, you know, there is
5:33
flaws, there's issues with it. And I'm not blind to those,
5:36
though you probably think I am at times.
5:39
So favorite, best or are quite different.
5:43
I mean, if you look at something best with, we've talked about
5:47
Hell Bent. Is that?
5:49
The right one. Heaven Sent is the one in the
5:52
castle. Hell Bent is the one on
5:54
Gallifrey. Heaven sent then the the one
5:57
that topped the pool. Oh yeah, Which is?
6:00
Who votes in those polls? So, Fraser, come on.
6:03
Well, you know, it's, it's good. It's good.
6:07
But is it a favorite? You know, so there's there's no,
6:11
you know, talking two sides of a coin.
6:12
You know, you've got you've got that in respect of, you know,
6:15
something going to be good and objectively good and really good
6:19
bit of drama, really good bit of television, really solid science
6:22
fiction or Doctor Who, but just doesn't connect with you.
6:26
We talked about this in straight to come hamster as well.
6:28
And you can have something that you know is is terrible.
6:31
You can see the the the gaffer tape sticking together.
6:34
You can see have the the dodgy performances, but it just really
6:38
strikes in your heart. For me, the happiness patrolled
6:41
is both the one you know it's it's it starts off with a
6:49
fantastic central idea. It has this high concept idea
6:54
around that is wrapped a really excellent script by Graham Curry
7:00
around that. You then get some fantastic
7:03
performances specifically from Sheila Hancock and Sylvester
7:07
McCoy, and this is one of his best opens as as Doctor Who, in
7:11
my opinion. And then you just keep wrapping
7:14
stuff around that. You keep you wrap around Dominic
7:18
Lynn's music. You wrap around the set design,
7:21
you wrap around the other characters, the Gilbert Ms. and
7:25
the, you know, Priscilla PS And obviously the, the big daddy of
7:31
them all, the candy man. You just keep wrapping stuff
7:34
around this idea until you come out with something which is
7:38
unbelievably layered and every time you look at it, you kind of
7:41
spot something different. You spot something new to enjoy
7:44
and you just unpeel all these layers every time you enjoy.
7:49
I'm trying to think of the sweetie metaphor of of layers.
7:51
It's like a humbug or some something that you can just keep
7:55
sucking on and enjoying. If you imagine they just, you
7:59
know, with different layers of flavours.
8:00
The everlasting gobstopper that changes flavours and colours.
8:04
Exactly, you know. Suck off a layer.
8:07
Yeah, stop it. And yeah, you know, you imagine
8:13
that is like the boiled speed where you like, it starts off as
8:15
like lime and then it goes to a different flavour and then a
8:17
different flavour until yet like something.
8:19
Give me in the middle. And yeah, long answer to a quick
8:25
question. That's why I love the Happiness
8:26
Patrol. That's what I love talking to
8:28
you about, Doctor Who. I'd see.
8:31
I agree with you. And I think that every time I
8:34
watch this, I come away with something different.
8:37
Like the first time I watched this, I saw the gay analogy and,
8:43
you know, leaning into Margaret Thatcher, sending people out
8:47
onto the streets to find gay people.
8:50
The pink triangle, the tile is being painted pink and all that.
8:53
That's because I'd read those fan scenes and Paul Connell and
8:57
people like that had pointed out all of that categories.
9:00
And then later times I've watched it, I've seen it as a
9:04
particularly strong criticism of the Tory government, which I
9:08
know they were going for with this story, you know, not so
9:11
subtly this time. When I watched it, I, I, there
9:16
was one scene that really stood out to me.
9:18
And not because I thought it was well acted, because it had
9:20
Sophie Aldridge in it, but it's a bit where she goes.
9:24
I'm, I'm really angry. I want to make them very, very
9:27
unhappy. And the doctor grabs her hands
9:30
and pulls her down and says, don't worry, we will.
9:35
Yeah, you're no good to me like this.
9:37
And I just saw a reading of be angry.
9:42
It's an angry script. Be angry about these injustices,
9:46
but channel that angry anger in a positive way.
9:50
Don't just strike out. Don't go out on the streets with
9:53
bombs and things and that. No, attack the system in in
9:58
positive ways. Make a change overall, rather
10:02
than just coming in and being destructive.
10:05
There's that in it as well. Focus your energy in the right
10:08
way and you can't bring down the government in one night.
10:12
Which is a just a brilliant premise for a Doctor story.
10:15
And so I think as a script, yeah, it's terrific.
10:19
And the the thing I've been quite rude about on Twitter when
10:22
I'm talking about it this week is I feel like when it's two
10:25
actors on the screen, 2 characters talking, it's as
10:30
riveting as Doctor Who has ever been.
10:32
The scene with the snipers, the confrontation between the Doctor
10:35
and Helen A at the end, a couple of scenes between Ace and Susan
10:40
Q, just absolutely high drama of the And then when it's telly and
10:47
when it's trying to be an action piece in that cramped studio
10:51
with those go karts. And you know, I have some issues
10:55
with the sets, especially without the floor of the sets
10:57
and the artifice of it. It it's kind of unacceptable.
11:01
What is delivering visually is unacceptable even for the time
11:06
when it's surrounded by stories like Remembrance of the Daleks
11:10
and Greatest Show in the Galaxy, which obviously have got bigger
11:12
budgets but also are on location doing spectacular things.
11:16
I can see why Doctor Who fans at the time went from 24 going what
11:21
is this pantomime to Remembrance of the Daleks going my God,
11:25
Doctor Who is back to the happiness portrayal going Oh no
11:28
it was just. Fluke, Yes, yes, I mean one of
11:33
the questions because we'll put out for questions didn't.
11:35
One of the great ones, I thought I'll do them at the end of the
11:38
episodes. Well, I'm going to address one
11:40
of them straight away, which comes from a fella I don't know
11:45
if you've heard about them, Simon Hart.
11:48
No, I've never heard of him, but I should make his acquaintance
11:51
one day. He's the Terminus guy.
11:54
Oh, him. Yeah, I have heard of him.
11:57
Yeah, there's got him one, isn't there?
11:59
So, so he asked a question about this, which was can you see why
12:05
a child of Williams would not like this?
12:09
First time it's. A great question.
12:11
It's a great question, but I kind of need to explain to the
12:13
the wider audience who doesn't really know what we're talking
12:15
about, what that means. I mean, frozen, I look at my
12:19
demographics every now and again.
12:21
There are too many young people listening to this podcast.
12:24
You know, it's old, older guests, usually yourself
12:28
accepted, of course. So it's generally an older
12:30
audience. But please go ahead.
12:32
But what I mean by that is I've, I've kind of, you know, I like
12:35
making lists. I like, you know, cataloguing
12:37
things. So I have sort of catalogued
12:41
Doctor Who fans as we go along. So Megan, you Joe, we are in the
12:45
79 Club. So I was born in 1979.
12:48
I know you would, but you're close enough to. 80, but yes, a
12:52
little bit, yeah, yeah. So you're an honorary member,
12:54
but people like me who were born in 1979, and I know there's a
12:57
good few of us, likes of Mark Madison, Jason Thompson, tend to
13:02
come into Doctor Who at this point.
13:06
If not 24, then definitely 25. Oh.
13:08
I-26 What do I? Yeah, yeah.
13:13
So I started with Remembrance of the Daleks.
13:15
That's when I properly started watching Doctor Who.
13:17
And I can remember that I probably started watching Doctor
13:19
Who. And then obviously, you know,
13:22
Happiness store followers, you know, if if Remembrance sort of
13:27
makes you were found, then Happiness Patrol kind of seals
13:29
the deal. And then you've got Silver
13:30
Nemesis on a great show in the Galaxy on top of that, which are
13:34
all just sealing the deal of what started off in Remembrance
13:38
of the Dalek. So a lot of of course, you know,
13:42
the 79 gang will look at happiness patrol with fond
13:44
memories and say, Yep, this is something I remember watching
13:48
when I was a kid and I enjoyed it.
13:50
It was everything was lovely and moment and you know, talking
13:52
about in school and and whatnot. Now, our friends who are a bit
13:56
older than us, who started watching who in the late 70s and
14:00
the Williams era, the children of Williams, the likes of Simon
14:04
Hart, they have a very different view on this because they were a
14:10
little bit older. So they were having to kind of
14:14
sit through the tail end of the column Baker era when the the
14:21
show was in a bit of a spiral down.
14:24
And, you know, being a Doctor Who fan at that time wasn't
14:27
easy. And when Remembrance came along,
14:31
that was a very good boost for them.
14:33
That was a big shot in the arm to say, well, look, this is what
14:35
Doctor Who can be like. This is how amazing and exciting
14:38
and well acted and well written and well.
14:41
In that magazine, Didn't it though?
14:43
One of the best things of 1987? Remembrance of the Daleks,
14:48
exactly. So.
14:49
So the children Williams got to go into school the next day
14:51
after remembrance of the doctors say, yeah, Doctor Who's back and
14:54
it's brilliant and yeah, watch Doctor Who again.
14:56
And then the Candy man came along.
14:58
And just what? Time Do you call this?
15:01
And knocked the wind completely out of their sails and.
15:06
Hang on, where does that leave me then?
15:08
Because I came in in 26 so I didn't see this until it came
15:11
out on VHS. Yeah.
15:14
So what did you think of it when it came out?
15:16
I was baffled, if I'm honest. I was, yeah.
15:20
I thought it was very cheap, but I remember loving the music and
15:25
loving the Candy Man and really loving Helen A as well because I
15:30
just always have loved a camp villain villainess.
15:33
Yeah, but you know, like I said, that the children Williams had
15:36
quite a strong reaction to. Listen, if you go and listen to
15:40
Simon's Library of Impossible Things with Pete Lambert, Pete
15:44
tells the most heartbreaking story about the Happiness
15:48
Patrol. And I'm really sorry, Pete, but.
15:49
Is this where he what almost abandoned Doctor Who?
15:52
Not just that, he'd been collecting little figures,
15:56
little figurines as he went, you know, and he'd build this big
16:00
massive, you know, pop, you know, spending his pocket money
16:03
saving it up and by noise. He gave it away.
16:06
He chucked them. He literally.
16:10
Because of this story. Because.
16:11
Of this story, we watched episode one of Happiness Patrol
16:14
and put them all in a black bean bag.
16:16
Mind you, you gotta think he's he likes folk horror and he
16:20
likes science fiction action adventures, and this ain't doing
16:23
either of that, is it? It's not, it's not.
16:26
But, you know, so that that's just, you know, the kind of
16:28
example of the the reaction that this story had on all the fans,
16:32
you know, fans my age or 8-9 and, you know, laughed this up
16:36
and loved it, all the fans, you know, this was sort of the
16:40
antithesis of this is everything that's that's possibly wrong
16:44
with Doctor Who. And so Simon's question, you can
16:46
you understand that? Well, yeah, I can.
16:48
I can understand, you know, why you would have that reaction
16:52
when kind of going into school the next day.
16:54
You've got to, you know your favorite shows, got Bertie
16:58
Bassett in it, and you know when that's a difficult position for
17:03
you, when you've. Been in a good place to sort of
17:05
ride that sort of thing after they've had Ronald McDonald in
17:07
it for seasons and seasons. So yeah.
17:15
Defenses shouldn't be up. Yeah, but, you know, if you're
17:18
kind of like getting bullied at school for for lightning Doctor
17:21
Who, which, you know, a lot of people happen to.
17:23
And then you've you've you've kind of had a sort of, you know,
17:32
a shot in the arm, as it were, about the, you know, from from
17:40
remembrance that then doesn't follow in.
17:43
And you've now got, you know, your bullies have now got an
17:45
even bigger stick essentially there to be with them.
17:48
Yeah, I can't see that. But you know, what I am happy
17:50
with is, is that the likes of Pete and Simon have, you know,
17:54
readdressed that, you know, come back and reassessed, you know,
17:58
this story. They can still.
18:00
So I said yesterday, you can still feel that.
18:02
Yeah, yeah. Shame because.
18:06
That's what's, that's the question.
18:07
The I think that's the word that's probably come up the most
18:12
with when we've, you know, asked questions and, you know, I've
18:16
put a tweet out that's, you know, had some comments and
18:19
you've obviously put yours out as well.
18:21
And the override and feeling that comes back and the one word
18:25
that people are using to describe is, is embarrassing.
18:28
So I can, I can see why, you know, people would think that
18:32
it's, it's, it doesn't ring true with me, but I can understand
18:38
that with other people. Here's another question then,
18:40
because I, I do when we're doing the commentary, which we will
18:43
get to eventually, I do kind of want to accentuate the positive.
18:48
And I think there's so many positives here.
18:50
But recently I was strictly, I said season 20 that you and I
18:54
did with spectacular success. May I say that Terminus is the
19:00
most interesting story of the year, but you have to make a lot
19:03
of production allowances in order to enjoy it.
19:09
Do you think that's true of the Happiness Patrol as well?
19:12
Probably to a certain extent. I don't think it's necessarily
19:16
make some allowances. I think it's just maybe's alter
19:19
how you look at it a bit I think.
19:21
So my question is, and do you think enjoyment of this story,
19:26
how much you're willing to enjoy this story, is whether you can
19:29
make that leap or not? I think that's the case for a
19:34
lot of Doctor Who, though, you know, you've always.
19:38
I don't know though, like you and I did Ambassadors of Death,
19:40
you know, I don't think you have to make too many production
19:43
leaps to enjoy that. You don't, but then if you think
19:46
you know, back to, you know, sort of like the 60s Doctor Who
19:50
where everything is in. The student dominators again,
19:52
aren't we? Yeah.
19:53
Yeah, You know, even even as far back as on Earth, the Child, you
19:57
know, where it's a cave in a the studio, you know, we don't get
20:04
out on location for a good few years in the 60s.
20:07
You know, it's not until something like the smugglers, I
20:08
think, or war machines where we're actually going out and,
20:12
you know, filming outside of the studio.
20:14
So there's always. That level of artifice that
20:18
you've got to accept. There's always, you know that
20:20
level of. Of that was TV production then,
20:24
this is now the late 80s and we can do all location stories and
20:28
we can put impressive images on the screen and there are better
20:32
filming techniques available and they're choosing not to do any
20:35
of that. They are, and it's a very
20:38
specific choice because it means you have four stories in the
20:41
season rather than three because GNT has been given the budget
20:47
for two fours and a six essentially.
20:51
And what he's done is then split that budget in the six and said
20:55
I'll have three episodes on location and I'll have three
20:59
episodes in the studio. So you have in every season you
21:03
have those two, three partners, which one of which is, you know,
21:08
location. So here we have Silver Nemesis
21:11
all done on location, and we have the Happy Animosity Patrol
21:14
bought in the studio. And year before you've got, you
21:19
know, Dragon Fire, which is all in the studio.
21:20
And you've got Delta and the Bannermen, which is all on
21:22
location in Butlins. And the following year we'll
21:26
have Survival, which is all on location and we'll have Ghost
21:30
Light, which is all in the studio.
21:31
So you are studio bound for this story.
21:34
So I think you've got an option here.
21:37
You can take your script, which you know, is, you know, set on a
21:42
planet. It's set, you know, in streets
21:44
and alleys and various locations which are going to have to be
21:49
studio bound. And you can either go for broke
21:53
and try and, you know, make that realistic knowing that you're
21:57
probably not going to be able to on the budget that you've got.
21:59
Or, and I think this is where the Happy Restore really
22:02
succeeds for me is you can accept that, except there's
22:05
going to be a level of artifice to this.
22:07
There's going to be a level of suspension of disbelief required
22:11
by the audience, which is prevalent throughout all of
22:14
Doctor Who. You know, even nowadays when you
22:16
you know, you're looking at things like the giggle, you
22:19
know, there's no one believes that that by generation scene
22:23
was actually filmed on a helipad up the top of the tower in
22:26
London. You accepted that as a sound
22:28
stage with CGI backgrounds and and all the rest of it.
22:31
You know, even nowadays you will have got to accept A level of
22:35
artifice when you're watching things.
22:37
So, you know, you can either do that or you can stage in a way
22:42
which kind of leans into that and says, yes, this isn't real,
22:46
this is a stage, but we're going to stage it a bit theatrical.
22:50
We're going to do it a bit as if it's a little bit surreal.
22:57
It adds like a little layer of surrealness.
22:59
Is that word surreality? I don't know.
23:03
Yeah, it adds that little to it where you look at it and, you
23:07
know, it's a studio. You know, it's a stage, but it
23:10
doesn't matter because stories leaning into it and saying,
23:14
well, we've got a very high concept to start with, which I
23:19
need to try and sell to you already.
23:21
You know, this idea that there's this colony where sadness is
23:25
forbidden and you know, half a million people can disappear
23:28
without anyone knowing about it sort of thing.
23:31
So you know, already you're on a bit of a well, how how well can
23:36
I sell this? So doing it the way they've done
23:40
it where, which is very stagey, but in the sense not when I say
23:46
stagey, I mean it could. This for me could be staged as a
23:50
layer. You could take this story and
23:53
you could stage it in a theatre. Yeah, definitely.
23:56
Yeah. And you get rid of all the bits
23:58
that don't work by doing that as well.
24:00
Well. Won't come to that, but you
24:04
know, you just need one or two, two or three sets.
24:06
You need that. You know, you have a big set for
24:08
the candy kitchen. You have a big set for like
24:10
forums Square. You can set all your action, you
24:13
know, in form scale with your waiting rooms.
24:14
You have maybe it's a set for Helleny's office as well.
24:19
In those three sets, you can, you could, I can see this on a
24:22
stage where you know, you know screens are coming down and
24:25
open. And it wouldn't lose the scale
24:27
of it because you just have the intercom going, you know, Oh, 15
24:31
factories have fallen, you know, and that's all you.
24:33
Need. Yep, absolutely.
24:35
So. And I think doing it that way
24:39
really just doesn't take anything away.
24:41
But for me it adds quite a lot to say well, actually, you know,
24:46
I'm going to stage it as more of a play than a television show
24:49
and we're going to do it that way.
24:51
And we'll have for some some funky angles in it.
24:55
We'll have some, you know, strange music, We'll have some
24:59
news that go, and we'll have, you know, some terrific lighting
25:03
as well going on in there. And we'll take it from there.
25:06
And when they run with that view of it, and that's when you look
25:09
at it, you shift a little bit and say, well, I'm not watching
25:12
the television show. I might be watching an
25:14
adaptation of a play. All of a sudden a lot clicks
25:18
into place. I mean, it's not so far removed
25:21
from those BBC Shakespeare's that they did in the 80s, you
25:25
know, where it's all clearly artificial and all the outsides
25:29
are represented inside, but you just go with it.
25:33
You know, I think the production actually is responding a little
25:37
bit to the script because there's something incredibly
25:41
theatrical about the script in how characters are introduced
25:45
and say their entire back story when they're introduced, you
25:48
know. Hello.
25:49
I was Hellena's gag writer. I got into trouble with her.
25:52
Then I was thrown into prison. There's a deleted scene.
25:56
I want to get into those later where Susan Q goes, you know, I,
26:00
I had this fabulous record collection, some jazz music that
26:04
I absolutely loved. Tells you everything you need to
26:06
know about her. Priscilla P has where she goes.
26:09
You know, I worked on the, So I was great at my job.
26:13
I'm an assassin. You know, like, people don't
26:16
generally do this in real life. Do They come along and tell you
26:19
their entire back story in one big lump.
26:22
But you put it in the mouths of very, very good actors, and it
26:28
really comes alive on the screen in an interesting way.
26:31
Yeah. Definitely.
26:34
Well, we'll go into episode one in a second.
26:39
My, my last semi criticism of this story is that I think that
26:48
Chris Cloth should have stuck to his gums and kept up the Dutch
26:53
angles that he goes for in this early shooting.
26:56
So those sort of skewered angles in the first couple of scenes
27:00
that he does with the very harsh lighting on the documentary,
27:05
they've black and whited it and put sort of noirish pops and,
27:11
you know, film distortion a little bit over it.
27:14
Scenes look incredibly atmospheric, you know, where
27:18
it's sort of like the the black and white obscures a bit of the
27:21
studios, you know, so you can't really tell.
27:23
It's a it's an interior. And I think that's a really
27:27
dynamic way of shooting it, he says on the documentary.
27:30
Yeah, I was starting to get feedback of, like, we don't
27:33
really do things this way. So he lost confidence in the
27:36
idea of doing it and then just started shooting it in the
27:39
normal way. I think Chris Clough is a very
27:41
underrated director. But I do think I'm 25, He's
27:45
zoning out a little bit. Silver Nemesis, I think, has
27:48
serious directorial problems. That's his last story.
27:52
And there's a few moments in this where it's like, you know,
27:56
they go down the pipe, doom pipe, doom pipe, and then
27:58
they're just going down a slide. It's just very odd looking.
28:04
That and some of the editing choices as well, which I know
28:10
this is, this is an Andrew Carmel thing, isn't it?
28:12
Where he wants to tell huge stories and he has to fit it to
28:18
what, 24 minutes or something like that.
28:21
And there's pretty much every single story from 25 and 26
28:24
could have a special edition and will be better for it.
28:27
Look at Kurt Fenrick and there's a ton of stuff they took out of
28:32
this. And you and me have had a bit of
28:33
a conversation about this today. And I absolutely your argument
28:37
is we need to understand the geography of the story and
28:42
people getting from A to B in order for the story to make
28:44
sense. And I agree, I can see why they
28:48
made those calls. But as a result, we've got
28:52
scenes of a terribly slow go Kart going across the studio
28:55
floor. And we don't have wonderful
28:58
scenes like Susan Q talking about her music collection,
29:01
which is so important to her character.
29:04
Or the scene, the first scene between the snipers where the
29:07
fellas obsessing just so like a man obsessing over this gun and
29:12
throat. Yeah, he gets it right in the
29:14
face of the other one with the whole point being that he's
29:18
obsessed with the gun, but he actually doesn't understand the
29:21
implications that it kills, which is which makes that scene
29:26
when the doctor comes along and tells him, and you're right, you
29:28
put a thing out on Twitter saying it's one of the best
29:30
scenes in Doctor Whoever. It's so powerful and obviously
29:34
we'll talk about it. It it's way more powerful if
29:37
that first scenes in there. It's so frustrating.
29:40
It's so frustrating. It is, it is.
29:42
And, you know, obviously he was, I have no doubt a collection on
29:48
the horizon for this season where undoubtedly with just four
29:51
stories, they are going to do special editions of we have
29:54
everything and say you can watch the original, you can watch the
29:57
special edition. So I'm confident that we will
29:59
get, you know, the ability to watch, you know, 3 extended
30:04
parts of this because there was a lot cut out.
30:06
But you know, it's, it is, you know, as a, as a director or
30:10
producer, you, you walk enough to make a decision.
30:12
You've got 25 minutes thought you have episodes coming at 27
30:15
minutes. You know, 2 minutes has to go.
30:17
So you've got to make that tough choice of what am I going to
30:20
lose? Am I going to lose something
30:22
that enhances the narrative or something that protects the
30:26
narrative. So if we cut a scene where you
30:30
know, for example, you know, the example you've given there with
30:32
the the escapes or the Ace and the Doctor escape on the go
30:36
Kart, you know, they leave the waiting zone and they travel
30:39
somewhere else. Now, if you cut that scene, you
30:41
have the Ace and Doctor jumping from point A to point B with no,
30:46
you know, idea of how they get there.
30:47
That's that's losing a bit of the narrative.
30:50
When you put the sniper dialogue, you don't lose
30:54
anything. You can still watch that and see
30:55
the story progress from ABCDE. It's interesting because I think
31:01
it's. Bad, you know.
31:02
Don't get us wrong one. Choice makes it an A more
31:05
understandable piece of television, yeah.
31:07
And another choice makes it a better piece of television.
31:10
Yeah. Exactly.
31:11
But when you're the producer and you've got to put out something
31:14
you know to, you know, 5 million people for them to understand,
31:18
you can say, well, actually that's that's the decision to
31:22
make. Obviously.
31:23
I think the second reason for that one is probably, you know,
31:27
you cut the scene with the go Kart and then the producer
31:29
knocks on the door and says I give you 2000 lbs for a go Kart.
31:33
That's my go Kart. And especially with with Mr.
31:36
Nathan Turner, you can see that that being an issue.
31:40
But. Ron Jones had the same argument
31:43
Adventures of Barros had lost as well.
31:45
Yeah, it's probably the same go Kart.
31:47
I'm all honest. It's it's probably the same with
31:50
the Mirka. You know, I can imagine when
31:52
they're making money so deep, it's like, Nope, I've paid for
31:54
this. This is the big opener.
31:56
This is the big monster. It needs to be front and centre.
31:58
Who's turned the lights off? I can't see my Mirka.
32:02
Show me the money. But, and this is an enormous
32:07
but, I don't think any of those criticisms I've just said matter
32:12
because now when I watch this story, I get so much substance
32:18
from it. I think the dialogue is so
32:21
precise, it's so crisp. I think certain scenes are so
32:25
dramatic. I think the score is so
32:27
brilliant. I think the monster is
32:29
incredibly designed. There's so much to this story
32:34
that actually I can whinge and moan about it being sort of
32:39
unacceptable production value for the time.
32:44
I think we're over it now. Yeah.
32:46
You know, certainly people of my age, you know, I've got, I love
32:51
the chase and for God's sakes, you know, and that's got far
32:54
more production errors than this.
32:56
Exactly, exactly. I think it does come back to
32:58
that. You know, it's that suspension
33:00
of disbelief that accepting this is accepting the artifice of
33:03
what's in front of him and, and saying, yeah, I know it's a
33:07
studio. I know it's a story, but I'm
33:08
going to get into the story and enjoy it for what it is.
33:12
Should we get into the story then?
33:14
And now let's accentuate the positive because there's so
33:19
much, So much. OK, let me just do this up on
33:22
the iPlayer. Hang on it.
33:26
Doesn't the iPlayer make life easy now?
33:28
Isn't? It wasn't it just.
33:30
Yeah, OK. Oh my God, it's started.
33:35
Hang on. Jesus Christ.
33:36
OK, Fraser, do us the great honour of counting us in.
33:40
In five 4321, happiness will prevail.
33:48
Oh, that starscape exploding at us.
33:52
Here comes Kev Kev's the. Guitar saw a wonderful thing on
33:57
YouTube the other day where he's there with Sophie Aldridge from
33:59
Corners explaining how he puts together the Doctor Who theme
34:02
tune. Have you seen it?
34:04
No, I haven't. I'll send you the link each.
34:06
He breaks it down to all the different layers that are in
34:09
here and then puts them all together, which creates a theme
34:12
tune. It's so great.
34:14
It's like watching a house being built instead of a house.
34:17
It's one of the best Doctor Who theme tunes ever.
34:19
It is. I love it.
34:20
Just it's it's so good because you don't have any of the
34:25
diddlydoms, it just launches straight in.
34:28
It goes bow. Dr. Bloody Who?
34:31
Well, it does have a jiggly dumb it.
34:34
Goes but then, because he's done that, he gets the he gets his
34:40
middle 8IN, which is fantastic, right.
34:42
So look at this set. Now, yes, we've got a nice high
34:45
angle and we've got person walking down, but look at the
34:50
depth of that set. Yes, you've got the street,
34:54
you've got the the lights to say, you've got the bottom,
34:56
you've got the little arches at the bottom there.
34:58
So you've got like a good sense of buildings there.
35:01
But what I love is right at the back, you've got that mural.
35:05
Yeah. And you've got this.
35:08
But shouldn't it be a happy one? Well, this is this is one of the
35:13
questions that would be national.
35:14
Should this be all sort of neon and plastic and.
35:19
Well, yes. Right.
35:22
Have a think about what else is going on at this time.
35:25
So we've got the Thatcher allegory going on, but this is
35:31
sort of the end of the Cold War coming up.
35:35
Yeah. You know, we're sort of 1987,
35:37
you know, we've got about what? So five years or so between
35:41
before the if if that you know the fall, the building walls
35:44
about to fall in a few years time.
35:47
So you're going with this? Go on.
35:50
Think of this as Communist Russia, where you're getting
35:55
told exactly the same thing. You must be happy.
35:57
You must love the party. You must.
35:59
You know your life is great. It's all propaganda, propaganda.
36:02
And you're looking out your window and you're seeing
36:05
brutalistic concrete buildings falling apart around you.
36:10
You know what you're looking at out your window doesn't match
36:13
what you've been told by the state.
36:15
OK. I mean, that's a brilliant
36:18
reading. Absolutely.
36:20
I I would buy that. Are they going for that though?
36:25
I think it could be because you know, the the did make the
36:29
deliberate choice that no actually it should be rundown
36:31
and it should be, it shouldn't be break and overlit.
36:34
It should be dark and a little bit dingy.
36:36
So I think they are possibly going for that.
36:39
What is it? Someone said Darren Lit Randall
36:41
said. German Expressionism.
36:43
Exactly. So it's like East German, you
36:45
know, this is, you know, you can watch this.
36:48
You know, there's like graffiti everywhere.
36:50
You can watch this. And, you know, if you've, you
36:53
know, been seeing, you know, scenes of, of what things are
36:57
going on in the USSR, in East Germany, you can in 1987 make
37:01
that connection that actually, yeah.
37:02
So the state is is pushing a narrative which isn't backed up
37:07
by what's going on in the streets.
37:10
What do you know? What I love about the Doctor's
37:13
characterization here is this is a one story where he's upfront
37:17
in Remembrance and Silver Nemesis and Greatest Show in the
37:21
Galaxy. He has a plan up his sleeve and
37:23
he sort of knows how it's going to pan out and he's put things
37:26
into place, but we don't know about that till later on in the
37:30
story. In this one he lands and goes
37:32
over terrible things about this place and I'm going to
37:36
investigate it and bring it down if I have to.
37:39
Yeah, it's a very, it's a very new series Doctor
37:43
characterization, isn't it? It's very sort.
37:44
Of tenant would do that wouldn't.
37:45
They yeah, Tenant would do that. Smith would.
37:47
You know, it's, it's how RTV and Moffett ranked the Doctor as as
37:53
a person with a plan. In fact, at the end, when he's
37:58
in Forum Square going absolutely bananas, I'm seeing a bit of
38:01
David Tennant in his performance.
38:05
Oh, John Normington. John Norman.
38:07
And August himself. Yep.
38:10
I asked the questions, Fraser. I asked the questions.
38:15
Joe, you do, but I mean, talk about getting a prestige actor
38:21
in a minor role and that's this is full of it, isn't it?
38:24
Happiness for sure. Yeah, I have remembered the
38:29
thing with the set is deliberate because they wanted to show that
38:32
Helleny's regime was on the decline, that it wasn't just a
38:36
case of because the original plan was to have the story set
38:39
over seven weeks. You know, it was supposed to be
38:41
like over weeks, not one night. And the condensed is down into
38:44
one night. So they wanted to show that this
38:47
isn't actually, you know, just the power of the Doctor.
38:51
Oh, I'm a superhero. I can let me do this with five
38:54
words sort of thing that Rusty will do.
38:56
But, you know, the cracks are already there, that it's already
39:00
on its way. And the Doctor just gives it a
39:03
tiny shove in the right few places.
39:07
But it's it's, and it's very sort of art decoy as well.
39:10
And oh. It's certainly it's visually
39:13
stimulating. And you've got those, those
39:15
pillars with the the art, you know, the bits at the top.
39:19
I think that it's the best. Levels as well.
39:22
You know how much I love levels on a set.
39:24
Well, they do that a lot in the McCoy era.
39:26
Yeah. Yeah, Look at Ghost Light.
39:27
Yeah. Obviously Ghost Light is
39:30
supposed to be an interior, so it sort of gets away with it.
39:34
I think The Candy Kitchen is a stunning piece of design
39:38
straight out of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but
39:41
beautifully rendered in ABBC Studio.
39:44
Please can we talk about Georgina Howard?
39:46
What on earth she is doing in this story?
39:50
She is Reagan that she didn't get Helena.
39:54
Was she supposed to be? Yeah, she thought she'd got
39:56
Helena, and then she got. It's like why she's so angry.
40:01
He is obviously a spy. She is obviously his accomplice.
40:07
I mean, it's so mannered. I love it.
40:09
Like, I really love it, but I'm like, I can't tell if it's a
40:13
good performance or not because nobody in the world talks like
40:16
that. Again, it's just the artifice
40:18
of, you know, we're staging this in a, we're not going for
40:21
realism with the way we're staging it.
40:23
We're not trying to sell you this as being realistic.
40:25
We're just trying to get you into the story and will get you
40:29
in in a. There is one line reading that
40:32
she has that. I am.
40:33
Please. They cut, though, and I know you
40:35
know what that line is. Go on.
40:38
Yeah. When she goes and the candy man
40:40
is dead, they cut that line out of episode 3.
40:46
But actually, you look at her work in tea bag and one foot in
40:50
the grave, you know? Hello, Victor.
40:54
You know, she's always, you know, doing something a bit
40:57
eccentric. Oh my God, here she is.
41:01
Here she is. A question is this this the best
41:08
single performance in Doctor Who?
41:12
I think there's an argument. I mean, you know what I feel
41:16
about cream crowding and Paul Dowers?
41:19
Well, I mean, they're all doing similar things, yeah.
41:23
But it's, yeah, it's, you know. You know, I noticed it's so
41:28
precise, her performance. It's almost like.
41:32
It's almost like it was written for and I don't think it was.
41:35
No, no, no. I think they had.
41:37
I think Patricia Routledge was in line to play.
41:40
Tell me that, please. I've always wanted Patricia
41:42
Routledge to be in Doctor Who. Yep, Yeah, she think she was in
41:47
line. She.
41:47
Would have been brilliant. She would have been brilliant as
41:49
well, but I think you know. But you say Sheila Hancock comes
41:53
in and and and hits hits the brief doesn't she knows.
41:58
Yep. So it's it's Thatcher, but don't
42:00
make it obvious in. Just imagine Fraser, Hellenise
42:04
Residence, the lady of the house speaking instead of Sheridan.
42:10
She'd be like the candy man. Oh, it's.
42:17
My minion, the candy man, he makes you know.
42:20
This is the first fellow who comes along and tells us his
42:22
entire back story. But I do love him.
42:24
Yeah. Well, I think it's a reason for
42:26
ice to be crossed as well. Yeah, but he's you know, again,
42:31
we're kind of three, three episodes, yes.
42:33
We don't have a massive amount of time for the exposition.
42:36
We'll have to kind of and this is what was the problem with
42:40
with these stories. You know, it's it's really
42:43
noticeable in in the three partners in the previous season
42:46
that, you know, dragon fire and dealt with the bannerman that
42:51
things happen at such a pace and dealt as you know, there isn't
42:55
enough exposition or things happen so fast that no one
42:57
actually stops and you're so pretty and.
43:00
Fun. I'll just go with it.
43:02
It just needs it needs time to breathe.
43:06
But like a stage plane, you don't get a lot of time to be
43:09
introduced to a character. So sorry.
43:11
So the stage praise, you do get a lot of exposition straight
43:14
away. Just do let the audience know
43:16
who these people are. The fondant supplies.
43:24
Oh yeah, OK, death by sweets. Death by sweets.
43:28
Strawberry Vanilla. Chocolate.
43:34
Imagine going down that tube and being smothered in hotel
43:38
chocolate. Hot chocolate bar.
43:41
Oh, it'd be lovely. It's such a sinister idea
43:46
though. Yeah, isn't it?
43:47
You know, taking something that Kitty wigs love and making it
43:50
deadly. And it's it's a mess as well.
43:54
I'd hate to be the person that had to clean up the studio after
43:57
after that scene because you're basically just.
43:59
Yeah, Doctor Who isn't mucky very often, is it?
44:04
Yeah, that's, you know, fella. It's just clean up gunge isn't
44:07
it? But it's it goes everywhere so
44:09
any will not adopt it yet. What about ACE then?
44:15
Go on. No, no, I'm asking you.
44:18
Well, I love Ace. Ace.
44:19
Ace is my my companion. Because, you know, like it says,
44:22
as a member of the 79 Club, I grew up with a so, you know, I
44:26
mean me and you've had this discussion off, as it were, when
44:32
you were trying to get a thrown into the time lash and choked
44:37
down into Loch Ness. And failed, yeah.
44:40
And but they did acknowledge I was right.
44:42
But they just loved her so much that they wouldn't do it.
44:45
I mean, that's that is that element, isn't it?
44:47
Because, you know, nostalgia is a a very powerful tool and a
44:52
very you know, it's it gives it gives a certain armour to to
44:58
people solely or like, like, you know, the 7th doctrine Ace have
45:01
got a level of protection, as it were for me, because because of
45:05
what it means, what they mean to me is a is a fan growing up, you
45:10
know, other people be the same. You know, if we talk to Simon
45:12
and probably say the same about Romano or canine, you know, you
45:16
can probably accept the flaws and you can say, yeah, well, I
45:19
objectively see what you're saying.
45:21
But ultimately, you know, because I have this do.
45:24
You know what mine is? Do you know which one mine is?
45:26
Go on. Because it was my first proper
45:29
companion of ongoing Doctor Who. It's Angie from the 8th Doctor
45:33
Adventures that everybody hates. She's such a cow.
45:37
I fucking love her. She, you know, that was for the
45:40
1st Doctor Who books I read and I bought them every month.
45:42
And then you can tell me till you're blue in the face.
45:44
She's a bitch, I love her. Exactly, exactly.
45:47
You know, so there's there'll be people out there, you know, like
45:49
Rose Taylor. Oh, well, no, Rose.
45:51
I grew up with Rose and Rose means, you know, we always miss
45:55
my in. And so there is.
45:57
I mean, I can I can see, you know, the argument that we had
46:00
wasn't it was about, you know, Sophie Aldridge trying to
46:04
portray her, yes, been essentially a classically
46:09
trained middle class actress trying to, you know, give it
46:14
tell. Me you can see it though,
46:16
please. I can see it.
46:18
I can see, I can see the argument.
46:19
But I think, you know, real again, you know, going back to
46:23
the time we were, you know, we're 87 were a few, you know,
46:28
88. We're a few years away from
46:31
Fresh Prince of Bel Air. And I think that's when have
46:36
like a real sea change in in attitude at the bbci think, you
46:40
know, even if you know, Jonathan Turner had wanted to cast a
46:46
more, you know, rough sound and actress for this role, then I
46:52
don't think he would have got away with it from higher up.
46:54
It would have been a case of no, this is, you know, children's
46:57
television all be going up half by 7 at night.
47:00
You know, we have a we have a standard at the BBC, you know,
47:05
that we must maintain. It's not until sort of jump St.
47:07
port comes along with the youth scene and we start getting
47:11
imports like, you know, The Simpsons and especially Fresh
47:14
Prince, where we start looking at other cultures, another and
47:19
that becomes popular and we see, you know, the other cultures of
47:23
our layers of class, the class system that we would then get
47:27
that. So he made this five years time.
47:30
I think by all means we would have had A and is properly from
47:34
the street, but you know, Sophie always just having to do the
47:36
best you can with what she's given.
47:38
What you would lack though, and here's me now fighting my own
47:42
argument, what you would lack in five years time with an edgier
47:46
actress, which would be more interesting?
47:48
Television, I think because they're going for it being
47:51
interesting, is the amazing chemistry between Sophie
47:56
Aldridge and Sebastian McCourt. And that I think is what sells
48:00
everybody on this character and the pairing.
48:04
And that is why it's like a a warm, comforting hug to
48:08
everybody that goes back and watches these stories because
48:11
they're just made for each other.
48:13
They love each other off screen and on.
48:16
And it beams out of every frame, and I can't deny that.
48:20
Absolutely. And I think, you know, you watch
48:24
dragon fire and you see the counter vase and you think, why
48:27
was this person picked as a companion?
48:31
You know, I don't get it. You then watch Remembrance of
48:34
the Daleks in the very first scenes between the two of them.
48:37
And you think, what you Oh my God, they have worked out so
48:41
much in between. You know, they have worked out
48:43
so much of their characters and how they're going to react with
48:46
each other. And and then Cartmel starts
48:48
doing business with them as well.
48:50
Cartmel goes well, it's not just going to be you know, what's
48:54
that doctor and let me hold your test tubes and, you know,
48:56
explain the plot to me, please, doctor.
48:58
You know the compound is going to have something to do with
49:01
companies going to have more to do And you know, getting into
49:03
season 26, you know, that really leans into you have a trilogy.
49:07
Don't you have the ace? In fact, it's probably you could
49:10
probably say it's more of a quadrilogy of ace heavy stories,
49:13
You know, the stuff that you know, there's the stuff in
49:16
battlefield around ace and account up.
49:18
But then certainly, you know, Fenrick Ghost Light was all
49:21
about the past and Survivor was all about a present, you know,
49:25
the sort. A little trilogy of the final
49:28
stories really, you know, brings a coat along and, you know, does
49:35
stuff that we've probably not had since.
49:37
I think Leela's probably the only other companion where you
49:39
can look at and go, you know, from the start to the end.
49:43
This is how this coat has changed.
49:45
You know, doctors change a little bit over time, but
49:48
really, companions are very, very little to do.
49:51
And so kudos to the Cartmel forgiven and, you know, starting
49:56
off with the basic sketchy base and adding a lot more into it.
50:02
He's doing that with her character and with the show and
50:04
everything. Yeah.
50:05
My, my issue is I think Audrey does a ceiling and she bumps
50:08
into it quite a bit. But that's for another day.
50:11
That's not for today. And I actually don't think
50:12
there's too much of that here. No, she's not the focus here,
50:15
really. I think that's it's, it's
50:17
perfectly valid. And because I know you've you've
50:19
said the same about Sylvester Mackay as well.
50:21
You know, Sylvester Mackay has scenes which he really excels in
50:24
and. That you know what?
50:25
There's something exciting about watching McCoy because he can
50:29
really land scenes and he can really go off a Cliff and I
50:34
never know what way he's going to go from scene to scene,
50:36
especially with Big Finish. So we're listening to his, I'm
50:39
on knife edge from scene to scene like, Oh my God, that was
50:43
amazing. Oh, that was terrible.
50:44
I mean, he excites me in that way.
50:48
I think, I think in this season, you know, Sophie Allred is
50:51
finding her feet a little bit. You know, Sylvester Cray's got a
50:54
got a season ahead of he is the the main focus of the the story.
50:58
And you know, Ace's time is yet to come.
51:01
You know, when we're going 26, you know, that is very much you
51:04
know, when when Sophie all that does really get a lot more to do
51:08
and a lot bigger chance to shine.
51:10
He actually has not given as much as you know, And again, you
51:14
know, the dialogue that she's given isn't you know, she's
51:18
because it is children's television.
51:19
She's and it's, you know, white men making children's
51:25
television. It's you know, it's rap bags and
51:27
scumbags and you know it's. Instead of saying I wanna make
51:30
them very, very unhappy, I wanna say, you know, I wanna hurt
51:33
them. Yeah, or something like that,
51:34
you know, But we, we can't quite go there yet.
51:36
We can't quite go the. Very last thing I'll say about
51:38
Ace, because obviously there's so much else to talk about.
51:40
Mind you, we've got a lot of questions to cover stuff too.
51:43
Is I think it's kind of a shame actually, because I've seen
51:46
Bonnie Langford play a cockney in EastEnders.
51:49
Absolutely no, she can do it. And I think she's a more
51:52
accomplished actress as well. And I kind of wish they swap
51:55
roles and Bonnie are played as because she's got brilliant
51:58
chemistry with McCoy as well. She has, but I think you know
52:03
McCoy and Sophie is Sophie Holland is exactly where it's
52:06
at. Yeah, I get it.
52:09
I absolutely get it. OK, well, then let's move on to
52:12
some of the other characters we've seen so far.
52:14
Leslie Dunlop. Yeah.
52:18
She brings a naturalism to both of her Doctor Who stories that
52:23
is quite rare, actually. Norma in Frontiers and Susan Q.
52:27
Is it Susan Q? Yeah, I think it is, yeah.
52:32
Susan, let's just go with that in this.
52:35
I think she's effortlessly on the first shot.
52:37
Susan Cube, Yes, yeah. And in constant ashes, like
52:42
absolutely cake. They make up with a, you know,
52:45
absolutely very 80s wig on her. They do take out quite a lot of
52:51
her scenes though, which is a shame.
52:53
She gets some lovely scenes with Ice.
52:55
There's a bit where her and Ice escape at one point and then are
52:59
recaptured by Daisy K and that's completely excised from the
53:03
story. But again, it's, it's, you know,
53:06
stuff that you don't necessarily need for the narrative.
53:09
And we'll enjoy it when it comes out.
53:11
We'll enjoy the extended version.
53:13
So I think this scene is so beautifully written though,
53:16
because it starts off with her doing the rehearsal and sort of
53:19
taking a piss out and that's no good, you know, You tell it this
53:21
hag. And then for her to just go, I
53:25
woke up one morning, Oh, there's a brilliant Blues songs to start
53:28
that way. I did.
53:29
And then I realised something was very wrong and suddenly we
53:33
know this is an ally. Yeah.
53:37
And it's it's, it's just, you know, another one of the
53:39
excellent performances that we're getting here.
53:41
And oh, there's say this P. He almost froze away the line.
53:45
Well, I think we'll abandoned our rehearsal for today.
53:47
It's just that's when, you know, she's reaching our hand to her.
53:51
And this story is full of little touches like that.
53:55
Absolutely. Oh, yeah.
53:57
This is wonderful, wouldn't it? And this is I think this is this
54:04
scene sort of really highlights what they are again, going
54:07
forward, sort of the totalitarian regime.
54:11
You know, we've we've got Thatcher, we've got we've got a
54:14
character that's portraying Thatcher.
54:15
We've got a setting which is very USSR.
54:19
So very sort of like and who would have been the president at
54:23
this time? I can't Remember Me son would
54:26
know if he was here. But, you know, so you've got the
54:31
USSR, you've got all this talk about disappearances and, you
54:35
know, sort of things that will happen in in like, South America
54:38
and South China and South Africa where, you know, political
54:42
opponents, people that don't join in with the regime
54:47
disappear. Maggie sending out coppers to
54:52
gay men that were cottaging. Yep, yeah.
54:56
And that's the clever bit because you then think, right,
54:59
you know, you've got your your brutal regime of, you know,
55:03
Pinochet, you've got USSR and we're lumping our government in
55:09
with that. So that's where you're kind of
55:12
holding the mirror up and saying, you know, I'm showing
55:14
you a direct link between what's what, you know, bad things that
55:20
you know, are bad and what we think is bad.
55:22
And we're showing you that it's it's just as bad now.
55:25
What's glorious about that scene?
55:27
Oh, there's enough on those touch angles.
55:28
Just saying. When the Happiness Patrol came
55:30
along to murder him is that's perfect 7th Doctor for me there
55:35
where he gives them the cards and he knows he's been, you
55:38
know, he's in a trap and he just goes Happiness Patrol
55:41
undercover. Great.
55:42
Maybe you can send them a message for me.
55:45
Totally. I'm concerned it's the same 7th
55:47
Doctor that walks away from that explosion in greatest Show in
55:49
the Galaxy and doesn't even flinch.
55:53
Absolutely. Oh, that's set for the candy
55:55
kitchen. Here we go.
55:56
With the cogs. How high it is?
55:58
Yeah. Is that matted?
56:00
You know, I think that is because in the special features
56:04
you see it with all the lighting grid.
56:06
So you're taking the grid out and put a glass shot over the
56:10
top. It's, you know, with the
56:13
kitchen, with everything bubbling away with the cogs and
56:16
the lighting as well, you know, you have the lighting way.
56:18
It's, you know, the shadows of the cogs that are turning, going
56:22
through. They think it's easy.
56:25
Fraser. 1000 lbs of praling Kraknel.
56:28
Indeed. You don't know what phrase is
56:32
like when he's in one of his moods.
56:34
Well, Joe, I've got a question for you.
56:35
Go on, what time do you call this?
56:41
Oh, he's so great. It's such a wonderful design.
56:44
It is. It is a.
56:45
Performance. I got into a bit of trouble but.
56:48
You can't because it's it is Bertie Bassett with no.
56:51
But it's evil Bertie Bassett. Look, it is.
56:53
Yeah. Because all of that sort of
56:54
sugar that's ripping down all of his choice.
56:57
It's like blood. It's that zombie Bertie Bassett.
57:00
And he's got the spinning eyes and he's got that sort of metal
57:03
brace across his which gives sort of like jaws and sort of
57:08
teeth motive and the wires and the.
57:10
I heard somebody say recently that the Destroyer was the only
57:15
creation in the new series. So in the classic series that
57:19
would be acceptable. In the new series, in the Riot
57:22
story, that costume would absolutely go in series one,
57:26
Absolutely series. Any series I can see it in.
57:32
In your 11th Doctor's time, I can see it.
57:37
In Jodie's time, I can see it. I can see it anywhere, to be
57:40
honest, I think. But again, it comes down to the
57:42
stage. And are you going to, you know,
57:45
stage it in a way that you're trying to sell?
57:47
This is like a real, real thing. Or you're just going to have it,
57:52
like I say, with that candy kitchen, with the sort of very
57:56
Tim Burtony style visuals, and just throw it off a little bit,
58:02
make that little bit more realm of the imagination rather than
58:08
reality. In fact, you can do this in the
58:11
new series, but you'd have to stage it.
58:13
And I think in exactly the same way as what they're doing here.
58:15
Slap on Dominic. Didn't score that.
58:21
My God, it's just glorious. But you're right, it's the
58:24
performance that sells it. The way he carries himself, but
58:27
the way he says the lines, you know, Tell them what I'm trying
58:31
to say, girl, but you know. What it's I said, you know that
58:37
you call this that that scene is, you know, what does that say
58:41
about the relationship between the candy man and Gilbert M?
58:46
Because you know, we're talking about the sort of the gay men
58:51
theme underneath. It's it's that's comes across to
58:54
me as a very sort of is it a bit stereotypical or is is the
58:57
reading? No, it does sound a bit like me,
58:59
Mark, if I'm honest. What time do you call this?
59:02
I was getting stuff for dinner. All right, you.
59:05
Know you can see him as it's sort of the old, older couple,
59:10
which again, you know, I'm a straight man so you can correct
59:12
me on this. But that's that's how it came.
59:14
Across How disappointing. So there is, I think there is a
59:20
good, you know, you've mentioned about like that's just sending
59:23
coppers out for for cottage and men.
59:25
And, you know, I think there's there is a good undertone of of
59:30
sort of gay relationships in this and.
59:31
Well, look who he runs away with exactly.
59:34
Exactly, I think that's that's you know, I can see the candy
59:41
man Gilbert M being pitched as a couple in a sort of Raghu and
59:47
toba where, you know, it's it's. Fraser, I'm starting to notice a
59:51
theme about these stories that you rate very highly.
59:54
Yeah, we seem to hang around a lot whilst you're talking about
1:00:01
them. Great.
1:00:02
What is going on? I mean, I've, I want to talk
1:00:05
loads more about the candy man in episode 2, his original
1:00:08
conception and and what hit the screen.
1:00:11
But I suppose because the episode has ended, we bet
1:00:14
instead by talking about it, we should head over to Twitter and
1:00:19
look at some of these questions that people have very kindly
1:00:21
sent to us. Wonderful questions at that.
1:00:25
OK, you ready for the first one? Yep.
1:00:27
So it comes from John Arnold and I'm going to say the question he
1:00:34
meant to say because he he got it a little bit wrong.
1:00:36
He said Candyman forks or dominators.
1:00:39
What he meant was Candyman quarks or quotons.
1:00:43
Quarks next. What?
1:00:45
I'm for the Candyman. Well, I mean the quark it's it's
1:00:49
the clocks and crotons. The quark's always one of that.
1:00:52
So, and it comes down to really Candyman versus Quarks and
1:00:57
Candyman's a coat like Quark's are or not really.
1:01:02
The other Quarks are like little, little robots.
1:01:08
I think, you know, you have to class the Candy Man is is a
1:01:12
villain rather than a monster and all, you know, the Crotons
1:01:16
are slightly characterized as well, but they are, you know,
1:01:21
little robots against big crystal robots.
1:01:24
You know, is the candy Man the robot or is he a man?
1:01:28
I think that's. The candy man is more
1:01:29
interesting than the quarks and the crotons put together.
1:01:33
Yeah, but which one would sell? Probably the quarks.
1:01:40
What of Are you talking about figures which one would sell
1:01:42
more? The Candy Man by a mile.
1:01:45
Yes, no, if you, if you, you know, get your little.
1:01:50
We've discussed this, didn't we? When?
1:01:51
We're If an Eagle Boss candy bag came out, would you be buying it
1:01:54
today? Oh, yes, you know, it's it's,
1:01:59
you know, is the candy man going to appear more in more than just
1:02:04
this story? I mean, the quark, the quacks
1:02:06
come back. It's.
1:02:07
A bit of an unprotected come back question, isn't it?
1:02:10
Because it's like asking you to choose your favorite child,
1:02:13
making you choose between the quarks.
1:02:17
That's a lie. That's.
1:02:18
A lie. Anyone that knows me knows my
1:02:20
children. That's that's a joke.
1:02:21
Joke, joke. All right, so I'm going to move
1:02:24
on to another slightly less facetious question.
1:02:27
That's coming from Dan Pind and Glorious Dan Pind, he says.
1:02:32
And he did Paradise Towers, which is sort of doing similar
1:02:35
things tonally, isn't it? Very dark, but with a a bright
1:02:40
surface, shall we say, a cab service?
1:02:43
The Happiness Patrol seems tonally and visually very
1:02:45
different to the other stories in season 25.
1:02:48
Would it suit season 24 better? And would it be better regarded
1:02:52
if it was a conclusion to 24? No, I think it doesn't really
1:03:03
matter where it goes in the season.
1:03:05
I think, you know, opening or closing it.
1:03:08
I don't think you know, it might have landed better with the the
1:03:13
children Williams if they'd had remembrance and then greatest
1:03:17
show and then silver nemesis or whichever way around to then,
1:03:22
you know, say hi. Well, I've got a bit more armor
1:03:25
against the bullies and you know, it's not quite the, you
1:03:31
know, the shift in aesthetic from, you know, Daleks special
1:03:36
weapons Dalek to candy man that I'm going to get grief for.
1:03:39
So that might have landed better with them.
1:03:40
But in terms of notably speaking, I think, you know,
1:03:43
remembrance is is the big board opener.
1:03:45
I don't necessarily think this is, you know, it doesn't scream
1:03:51
end of season, you know, any more than any of the others do,
1:03:54
if I'm being honest. And would it be better in Season
1:03:57
24? I want to disagree with you,
1:04:03
unsurprisingly, because I think this is the direction 24's going
1:04:08
and Mccoy's getting more assured throughout 24 to that point
1:04:13
where he just delivers that fabulous speech in Dragon Fire.
1:04:17
You know, your people were annihilated, your planet
1:04:19
obliterated, and this does feel a bit like a natural success.
1:04:23
And so that again is it's a bit more darker and it is kind of
1:04:28
similar tonally to dragon fire, which sort of veers between
1:04:36
slightly embarrassing and very dark from scene to scene.
1:04:40
I wonder if it would it No, I, I, I don't think it absolutely
1:04:43
has to go there because I think you shouldn't.
1:04:45
You can have different flavours in the Doctor Who season.
1:04:47
I certainly think it would have landed better there and it would
1:04:51
have probably have been considered the best of the year.
1:04:54
Are we talking about 24 at the end of the season?
1:04:56
24. Oh wait, so 24 I think.
1:04:59
At the end of the season, yeah. After dragon fire.
1:05:03
If you have this in 24, you have Mel rather than nice well.
1:05:08
No, because Mel leaves in dragon fire, doesn't she?
1:05:10
So this will be the first a story after that.
1:05:12
Was his question not Does Would this be better at the end of 25?
1:05:19
Would it suit 24 better and would it be better regarded if
1:05:22
it was the conclusion to 24? The conclusion of 24, right, OK,
1:05:27
so. I think it would.
1:05:30
It would it be better guarded? Yes, it would, because you
1:05:32
wouldn't have that that reaction that people had from going from
1:05:35
remembrance to this. So yes, I'll change my answer
1:05:37
then. Yes, it would be better regarded
1:05:39
at the end of 24. I think it actually would feel
1:05:43
like a more natural progression between 24 and 25 as well
1:05:48
because it is very dark. Yeah.
1:05:50
And I think, you know, it has that sort of visual style that
1:05:53
would suit 24, but I think it sits well in 25.
1:05:58
To give 25 that little bit of extra is it where, you know,
1:06:03
you've got Remembrance, which is very straightforward.
1:06:05
You've got, you know, Silver Nemesis, which is very
1:06:08
straightforward. Cyberman, you've got greatest
1:06:10
show in the Galaxy, which comes out looking the way it does
1:06:13
because of asbestos. So to have the Happiness Patrol,
1:06:18
this big pink lob sitting in that season, I think gives that
1:06:21
a little bit of a lift. I think if this, you know, if we
1:06:25
were better regarded by people because you'd want to have that
1:06:27
Cliff, you know, that quantum leap between remembrance and
1:06:30
this. But at the end of 24, you don't
1:06:34
also have what we're talking about there of what Sophie
1:06:38
Aldridge and Sylveston McCoy you've done in between those
1:06:42
stories. So you have the ace from dragon
1:06:44
fire in this story rather than the ace from remembrance.
1:06:50
So you're going to have, I think you'd.
1:06:53
Have AI? Don't know.
1:06:54
I think they landed on their feet quick.
1:06:57
I think I think there's a lot going on between I think, you
1:07:00
know, you look at if you watch remember dragon fire and you go
1:07:04
straight into remembrance. You start wondering where is
1:07:07
season 24 B, You know, what has happened in between, you know,
1:07:13
her jump and then walking out the TARDIS in the next story.
1:07:17
There's so much has changed in the characterization, the
1:07:21
characters. You're kind of thinking, you
1:07:24
know, where's where's the big finished box set, but set
1:07:27
between these two, you know, where they work out all this
1:07:31
character stuff. So.
1:07:34
That might be the actors, that might be, you know, Sophie
1:07:37
Aldrin, Sebastian car going. Hey, you know what, we're going
1:07:40
to be working together next year.
1:07:42
You know, let's go and have some, you know, you come out,
1:07:45
come out to my house and we'll, you know, we'll chill and we'll
1:07:47
chat and we'll work stuff out and we'll, you know, we'll, I'll
1:07:50
spend a bit of time with you and you'll spend a bit of time here.
1:07:52
That might be something that happened, I don't know.
1:07:54
Or it might just be Cartmel as well.
1:07:57
Go. And actually that was my first
1:07:59
run of a series. Now I've got a little bit of a
1:08:01
breather before the next one. What am I going to do with me
1:08:03
scripts for next year? And I'm going to do more stuff
1:08:07
so. Tonally though, Tonally is at
1:08:11
home in 24. Tonally, far more.
1:08:14
Than it is in 25, which otherwise is bright on location
1:08:18
you know and far less theatrical.
1:08:20
Yeah. That's a good question.
1:08:23
Great question. It also says why is fondant
1:08:26
surprising? It's what is what it's
1:08:30
smothering you to death. Because that's, that's the whole
1:08:33
point is that they, when they do the execution, the bring the
1:08:37
tube down to send the happiness patrol away, the tube lifts up
1:08:41
again and they think, oh, well, I'm done.
1:08:42
And the surprise is, you know, they think they're going to get
1:08:46
shot. Basically the surprise is you
1:08:47
think you're going to get firing squad, but you get bonded
1:08:51
instead. When he starts coming down, you
1:08:53
go, oh, that's quite tasty. Yeah.
1:08:56
Dead. And he also asks, did Joseph C
1:09:00
ever love Helena? Him.
1:09:06
Good question. I don't think Helena ever loved
1:09:08
Joseph CI. Think she only ever loved Fifi?
1:09:15
It's yeah, let's say yes, he did, but.
1:09:23
He had a very impressive stash of gay porn though whilst he was
1:09:27
in love with her. Helena changed over the years,
1:09:29
and he saw the merits of Gilbert M.
1:09:36
OK, I'm going to ask you one. What?
1:09:38
Two more questions for one person and then we'll skip on to
1:09:41
two. So Jigster, that's James with
1:09:44
Stanley. Wilder asks.
1:09:46
Which letter would you have been designated if you were in this
1:09:50
story? MG Presidently.
1:09:54
Why's that? Oh, because it's just a certain
1:09:57
name. Oh, that means I'm Joe F, who's
1:09:59
higher ranked. Is it me FG or just by one,
1:10:03
though? By one?
1:10:04
Yeah. Oh, wait, the side heart.
1:10:06
Oh, he's below both of us. Yeah.
1:10:08
FG yeah. And he also asked, did Gilbert M
1:10:14
and Joseph C live happily ever after?
1:10:18
Oh my God, do you know what I envisage?
1:10:20
A a vicious style sitcom set in the future.
1:10:24
You know that Ian McKellen, 1, Derek Jacoby, where they're
1:10:27
total bitches to each other, You know, doing a flat share on
1:10:31
Spaceport Satellite 69 or something.
1:10:34
Yeah, I think 100%. So I think if Gild M is going to
1:10:37
leave the candy man and Joseph, so he's going to leave Helena.
1:10:39
I don't think that's that's the the the foundation of a
1:10:46
successful relationship. What's that?
1:10:48
What? Leaving somebody else and being
1:10:50
with someone? I just.
1:10:52
Yeah, you be careful what you're saying there, all right?
1:10:58
But no, on top of that, I think they are quite self-serving
1:11:05
characters as well. Both.
1:11:06
Yeah, You know, they're very much in it for themselves and
1:11:09
not anybody else. You know, they don't get much
1:11:13
background about Gilbert them until the very end, you know,
1:11:16
but they're not. You know, what you do get is
1:11:17
obviously he's he's a bit of a oh, what's that him?
1:11:24
What's that person that's getting chased around in town
1:11:26
for mercy called? Oh, Carla Jacks.
1:11:29
Yes, he's a bit of that type of. I accidentally invaded a deadly
1:11:33
new jerk, wiped out the entire population.
1:11:37
So you love how Joseph Silo walks around the whole story
1:11:41
with a sort of bold disinterest? Yep.
1:11:44
You know, so I can't read. The coat has got any, neither
1:11:48
coat has got any empathy or anything.
1:11:51
So I think they will just eventually, you know, pop each
1:11:54
other over literally UN metaphorically.
1:11:57
Just fuck each other, OK? Actually, I'm going to ask you
1:12:00
one last question because I think it's the only negatively
1:12:04
slanted question. I won't get well out of the way
1:12:06
before we head into two. And my favorite episode 3, and
1:12:10
that's from Daniel Knight, who I'm sort of reading between the
1:12:12
lines here. I think maybe he doesn't like
1:12:14
this story too much because the question he asks is this.
1:12:18
Would this have been a better story if A The Candy Man hadn't
1:12:23
looked like Bertie Bassett? No B.
1:12:28
He didn't sound like Pinky and Perky.
1:12:31
No. C Chris Clough hadn't directed
1:12:35
it. No.
1:12:38
And D they toned down some of the performances.
1:12:42
I don't think there's any performances that need tone and
1:12:44
down, to be honest. This isn't like, you know, we
1:12:47
haven't got a dowel and we haven't got a crowd in in here,
1:12:49
I think. And obviously Sheila Hancock is
1:12:52
doing Thatcher, but she's doing a very subtle Thatcher.
1:12:55
She's not like, you know, trying to mimic their cadences or tone
1:12:58
of voice or anything. I mean, Candyman is, is, you
1:13:04
know, how, how do you do Candyman naturalistically?
1:13:09
Well, we'll talk about that in two.
1:13:11
The the voice thing. I don't think you lose any of
1:13:14
the nuance in the performance with that voice.
1:13:16
In fact, I think it makes it more sinister the fact that he's
1:13:20
got a cute voice cloth. We've discussed and I think Eva
1:13:23
is between being ABS like brilliant avant-garde in places
1:13:28
and you know, Oh, I want out of this silly show with no budget
1:13:33
and the do you know what? Something is absolutely
1:13:37
screaming out from this tweet and it's a good place to end
1:13:42
this because it's where you started.
1:13:44
He's a Williams child. He is, isn't he?
1:13:48
It's like tick, tick, tick, tick.
1:13:50
I'm a bit embarrassed by all of this.