Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Choosing Yourself AND Family in a Mixed-Faith Marriage: Faith Expansion & Finding Your Voice — Heather Campbell
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (01:08) Heather Campbell, welcome back. How are you? Heather Campbell (01:11) I'm so good, how are you? Brynne Erickson (01:13) I am great. Last time we chatted, we talked about health and body love, but tonight we're going to get personal about you and your journey of faith and expansion. I recently recorded an episode with a friend and she refers to it as a faith expansion. Me too. I was like, yes, that's it. That is the phrase. It's growth. It's progress. It's perspective. Heather Campbell (01:33) love that. in terms of. I love it. Brynne Erickson (01:42) And it can be a beautiful, beautiful thing if we embrace and allow it. So thank you for coming on and sharing yours with us. Heather Campbell (01:45) Mm-hmm. Thanks for having me again. guess it's a good sign if you were willing to have me a second time. So happy about that. But I always appreciate you in creating a space that feels safe to share. So thank you. Brynne Erickson (01:56) Truth. Well, thank you. Is it not always a safe space to share your beliefs about faith and religion? Heather Campbell (02:11) No, it's actually not sometimes. So yeah, we'll have to get into that. If you want me get into that right now, I can, but yeah, not always. So I appreciate you. Yeah. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (02:16) K. And let's get some background first. Yeah, well, that's huge compliment to me. And I appreciate that you feel that way. ⁓ I haven't always felt that way, too. But it takes practice. learning. Like, the more you're willing to talk about it and the more willing you are to see people's perspectives without having to prove anything, that makes all the difference, huh? Heather Campbell (02:44) Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree 100%. Brynne Erickson (02:50) So Heather, were you raised in religion or a form of spirituality? Tell us a little bit about your upbringing. Heather Campbell (02:56) Yeah, so I grew up in the LDS church. Pretty much everyone in my family and all my friends ⁓ were members and that was my upbringing. And if you were born and raised in Utah, you know that especially in Utah, the ⁓ church can feel very intense. It's definitely all encompassing. And if you are someone who struggles with it, it can be very overwhelming because it is, you know, it's woven into every aspect of your life. So that was very much my upbringing. And yeah, I started to struggle. mean, primary age, I have memories of struggling with certain aspects of the church. So it's definitely been a journey and it's been something that's been ongoing since I was a child. Brynne Erickson (03:53) What was unsettling for you as a kid? Like what were some of the first things you were like, I don't know about that. Heather Campbell (03:58) Yeah, I just remember in general feeling like one of my biggest just hangups has always been feeling like the lack of love, I guess I would say. Certain teachings and certain portrayals of the Mormon God just did not feel loving and good to me. And that is something that felt really, really confusing as a child. ⁓ I also just remember, yeah, just certain teachings. I don't know how like specific I will get but there was just things that I'm like an empath and so even from a really young age I just felt things so deeply and so if something felt unsettling to me it was just so hard to shake and especially as a child I think I also didn't feel like safe to ask questions safe to ⁓ Brynne Erickson (04:50) Mm-hmm. Heather Campbell (05:09) have the questions that I was feeling, like even, you know, I just felt guilty for even thinking or wondering what I was wondering about, if that makes sense. And you know, when you're a child, you don't know how to voice that and how to work through that, especially if everyone in your life, you know, seems to not struggle in the way that you're struggling. And so, I have memories, like I said, just primary age of really just, being upset about... I remember one big one for me was, I feel like it was always taught to just be careful about associating with people who were not members of the church. And that one was always really hard for me. We had these wonderful neighbors. I had wonderful school friends who I loved being around. And that was one that always really confused me as a child because I'm like, I know these people and they're wonderful. So why... at church are they telling me one thing but to me that doesn't feel correct and so just things like that you know that as a child it felt so confusing because I was so young. Brynne Erickson (06:16) and how did that impact you as you got older? Heather Campbell (06:19) I continued to go to church and, you know, as I was younger, it wasn't like a weekly struggle, but it was just here and there, kind of, you know, things that made me curious and things that I was like, okay, I don't, you know, really know if I agree with that. But as a child, you're kind of just like, okay, well, you know, that's just what they're telling me. I must be wrong. And, I need to listen to what they're telling me, even though that doesn't feel like... good to me, you And then as I went into my teenage years, and kind of started developing more into, who I knew I wanted to be and developing my own belief system and got a little more comfortable with the curiosity and the questions. I still went to church, but I definitely felt like I had to fake it a lot, if that makes sense. I felt... Brynne Erickson (06:48) Mm-hmm. Heather Campbell (07:13) kind of the same as I felt like a child again I just I wanted to fit in and I didn't want anyone to know that I struggled and ⁓ I did everything to fit in and make and make it look like I was happy and I was happy to be at church and but that wasn't the case for me unfortunately Brynne Erickson (07:36) What was the tipping point? Heather Campbell (07:38) honestly it wasn't until my adult life, ⁓ when I was in high school, I was already dating my now husband and I knew he was gonna go on a mission and I knew that if I didn't go to church that he probably wouldn't marry me when he got home and so that was, you know, felt like a sticky situation and so I was just like, okay, like I'm gonna stick it out and Brynne Erickson (07:59) you Heather Campbell (08:07) ⁓ I kind of just decided to be like ⁓ a great area because I had tried I tried all the things you know like studying praying going to the temple like doing all the things that I was supposed to do and I just felt like it was not helping me get to where I wanted to go and just a lot of shame and a lot of what's wrong with me? Why isn't this working for me? Why you know, I can't I just? enjoy church and believe everything they're telling me and ⁓ Anyways, so the tipping point really wasn't until I had my last baby. Yeah, so I was like in my 30s. But all in my married life and my, in my 20s, I still really struggled. ⁓ But my tipping point was definitely after my fourth baby, they put me in Young Women's and they asked me to teach a lesson and I was going over the lesson and I was just like, I can't do this. I can't stand up and teach this because it's just, I can't do it. I finally ⁓ looked at it as I was betraying myself every week and choosing the comfort of others and choosing to do what other people. what I thought other people wanted me to do instead of doing what was best for me. And so that was my tipping point. And I asked to be released from my calling and, have lots of hard conversations with my husband. And, but yeah, that was my tipping point. I think in your thirties, there's a lot of us have kind of like a transformation moment where it's like, okay, I, know, is this serving me? Like, does this align with me? And if it doesn't, Brynne Erickson (09:26) Yeah. Heather Campbell (09:49) I think it's easier to let it go when you're, you know, just older and wiser, I guess. I think that was my tipping point. Brynne Erickson (09:58) Why was it so hard to share with your husband earlier on? Heather Campbell (10:04) Honestly, this is a funny question too because he is like the kindest, most open-minded person. But again, it was just, I think years of like shame that had built up just wanting so badly to just not struggle with the church and to just be happy going every Sunday and, you know, be happy with what they're teaching and just... the shame of being one of my only family members and friends who felt differently and that felt really scary. But it was actually a really beautiful experience once I finally did talk to my husband about it and I had, you know, voiced little things here and there over the years but I don't think he really knew how, like the extent that I was struggling and that's my fault because I, and it wasn't at all that I didn't feel like he was a safe person but it was just like, felt scary, like what is gonna happen to our dynamic because we have a very happy marriage and I just didn't want to rock the boat at all. But once I did get brave enough and open up to him, he was amazing and very supportive and just it was such a good experience for us and we've gotten to a really good point now where we're comfortable believing in different things and we support each other and we No, we still have a strong, happy marriage and I'm really grateful for that because I know that's not the case for everyone in a mixed-faith marriage. Brynne Erickson (11:38) Yeah, it's interesting. I know when I got married, it never crossed my mind that we would become different people. ⁓ But I bet most marriages are not the people that they were when they got married. Heather Campbell (11:57) And thank goodness, right? Especially for those of us in Utah that get married really young. Like, yeah, I would hope that 10, 15 years into the marriage, we are different people because, you just, you know, your 30s are such a different experience from your 20s. And so if you're a different person, that's good. That means you're growing and developing and learning and not seeing stagnant, which is what we're supposed to do. Brynne Erickson (11:59) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Thanks Mm-hmm. Yeah. And yeah, our religion is so interesting because we put everything hangs on the religion being right. And if it's right, then you do all the things. And if you do all the things, then you get to stay together. And that is scary. And that's why a lot of marriages in the past, I think there's a shift. I think that people are starting to see that maybe there is a way that it could work out. Heather Campbell (12:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Brynne Erickson (12:52) even if we're not on the same page and everyone in our family isn't on the same page. At least that's what I'm concluding and I'm finding more people that are realizing that. And I, well, for me, that's a God worth believing in. Like the one that loves families enough that it doesn't matter how people live or yeah. Heather Campbell (13:00) Mm-hmm. Yes. the end to me too, that's more love-based. Whereas thinking about it in the opposite way of, we're not gonna be together, this isn't gonna work out, it's not okay, that to me is fear-based. And so much of the church that I've struggled with, you know, for years now, is that same situation. This, you know, that doesn't feel good to me because that feels fear-based. And I personally, Brynne Erickson (13:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Heather Campbell (13:43) I'm drawn to looking through the lens of love and teachings that feel good and that are love-based is what has always resonated with me more. Brynne Erickson (13:55) Yeah, and before we dive into how you worship or are spiritual today, ⁓ let's talk a little bit more about your family dynamics. Are any is anyone still going to church then is your husband or your kids? What does that look like for the Campbell family? Heather Campbell (14:12) Yeah, so when I first stepped away six years ago we had My oldest child was Seven six he was only six and then we had a baby that was not even one years old and we have four kids total so teeny tiny kids and so I Went to church with Tyler still for like Brynne Erickson (14:30) you Heather Campbell (14:40) four years. went to Sacramento meeting I should say and then ⁓ well I guess for the first couple of years I actually stayed both hours because sometimes our little kids you know would need to be sat within primary and nursery but I had asked to be released from my calling and I had kind of told like the bishop and the Relief Society like hey I'm stepping away I'm just coming to support my husband which I was happy to do because you know when we got married we agreed that Brynne Erickson (14:52) Mm-hmm. Heather Campbell (15:09) That was what we were going to do, was take our kids to church every Sunday. And so I still wanted to support him in that, even though it was super difficult for me. But so yeah, I did that for four years. And then about two years ago, I stopped going because our kids are all like school age now and consist of for the most part. so Tyler takes them every Sunday. by himself. ⁓ I go with them on like Mother's Day and Christmas and for the primary program and any other time that my kids are like giving a talk or something, I will go and support them. And same with like mutual, you know, if there's a special meeting that all the parents are invited to, I go. And so I'm so happy to support my husband and my kids in anything church related and I'm happy to go to you know, the word Christmas party and the word Halloween party and so I still am very much, willing to go and be a part of it and I'm so blessed and lucky because my ward is full of the kindest people. We had only been in the ward for maybe a year, not even a year. So I didn't know everyone super well. ⁓ when I, you know, asked to be released and said I was taking a step back. But I guess I did keep going to church and so I was still able to build relationships but anyways, I've been so blessed because everyone in the ward has respected my wishes of not wanting to be like bombarded with text messages and I don't want people showing up at my door and they know that if I you know, want to come back and participate that I will let them know. But they have not been pushy at all. And another thing that I've always really appreciated is that they don't treat me any differently and they do not treat my kids differently. That was something that I was so torn about as I was like, people gonna like let their kids come to my house and play for my kids if they know that I don't go to church anymore? And just things like that was so hard for me. Brynne Erickson (17:26) Hmm. Heather Campbell (17:32) ⁓ But I have been blessed because my ward and neighborhood is full of the most loving kind people and I have never once had a bad experience and I am I do not take that lightly because I know that's not the same story for a lot of people in my same position. So I'm so lucky and that's I think that's what makes it easier for me to go to church when I am going to support my family because I know that I'm going to be welcomed with open arms and everyone's so loving and kind. Brynne Erickson (17:47) Yeah. And not like belittling or questioning or preaching. It's just, we're happy to have you. What do you want to do? You want to sit with your kids? You want to hang out? Yeah. Heather Campbell (18:02) No. No. Never. Yes. Never. They're so wonderful. Yeah. And not even the bishop. He'll say hi to me, ask how I'm doing, and people will ask my husband questions when he's at church and I'm not there, but again, it's always been respectful. No trying to get gossip. No, like you said, judgment. No. Brynne Erickson (18:30) Just genuine curious how you're doing. Heather Campbell (18:31) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like we are so lucky. I have literally had the best experience in that aspect and I don't take that for granted. Brynne Erickson (18:43) I love that. And as your kids are getting older, you're going to be having like ordinations and missions in the future. What are your thoughts about that? Heather Campbell (18:47) Okay. Yeah, it's definitely hard. Like, I have actually really struggled. So three of my kids have been baptized and it's a hard day. It's a hard day for me, but I am more than happy to put on a happy face and be happy for my kids because they are happy that day. And, you know, I work through my feelings on my own time and I have... ⁓ a couple of safe people that I reach out to when I'm struggling that I can kind of just vent all my feelings out, you know, to and then once I get out of my system, I feel better and that's how I process it and ⁓ and then I'm able to let it go. so, yeah, it is stuff like that is definitely hard for me. But I don't I don't make it about me. If that makes sense. I I look through the lens of love and focus on my kids and show up for them and make it a happy experience for them. Brynne Erickson (19:52) Can I ask what about it feels so hard? Heather Campbell (19:56) Yeah, of course. I think just that if it were up to me, I wouldn't. I don't want them to ever feel any of the same feelings that I had as a child in church. And so, you know, getting baptized and having callings and I just... you know, that's what it is, is I just don't ever want them to have those same feelings and experiences that I had and I don't want them to ever feel like that something's wrong with them if they're struggling or that they're not allowed to ask questions. I just want church to be a happy experience for them and I think for the most part it is. And so... I guess I should also say it's more those feelings of shame get brought up again. like, yeah, that and the shame comes back. Like everyone around me is so happy to watch my child getting baptized and I'm sitting there going, why can't I just be happy for me too? Like why, you know, it's like the shame cycle from when I was a kid. Why can't I just Brynne Erickson (21:08) protect your kids. Yeah. Heather Campbell (21:29) come to church, like why can't I just come and participate and have this be a happy day? Why does it have to be hard for me? And I think that's the biggest reason why I struggle on those days. But it's just, you know, it's something that I've learned to work through and I don't, I've been really lucky because I don't ever get stuck and like dwell in those low spots. It's kind of like I've learned to just feel my feelings and then let it go and move on. Brynne Erickson (21:54) process. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that with us. So how do you navigate teaching doctrine in your home? How do you voice your opinions, your beliefs, what you guys think about what they hear at church? Heather Campbell (21:59) Yes. Thank Yeah, so our kids are getting older and they have started asking questions just like, why don't you come to church, mom? Why don't you like Jesus? they started asking stuff like that and they are getting older now, but I try to keep my responses like age appropriate to them. ⁓ I don't I would never be the kind of person to try to pull them away from the church. I would never. Brynne Erickson (22:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Heather Campbell (22:41) try to just talk them out of being a part of it if it makes them happy. And that goes for anyone who's my friend and family because I actually have a lot of friends and family members who I've never spoken to about this. And so if any of them happen to listen to this, I want them to know that if the church brings them happiness, I love that for them. That unfortunately just hasn't been my truth and my journey. But. Brynne Erickson (22:55) Mm. Heather Campbell (23:09) I'm a safe person to talk to about this because I would never ever ever try to get them to see how I see or you know feel how I feel. So anyways, for my kids I try to focus on the same value system that is taught in the church that I agree with and there's so much good in it. ⁓ I actually really did love like the values that it taught me as a child. ⁓ And so I really try to focus on teaching that stuff to my kids, like family first and honesty and giving charity to others and values like that that I still align with and that I think are so important for kids. And so I definitely ⁓ try to teach it more in like a... experience setting. Like I keep religion out of it, but you know if we have a situation where somebody wasn't honest then we kind of make it a learning opportunity or you know we look for ways to serve others and to give. So I definitely don't bring religion into it at all, but I do really make it a point to teach my kids those values that I still align with. And what I really love about our household is that, so when my kids do ask, like, why don't you come to church? Why don't you love Jesus? You know, I just tell them, I just say, mommy believes differently in a lot of things that the church teaches and that's okay. And daddy, you know, believes what the church teaches and... ⁓ That's okay too. And when you're older, you get to decide and that's the beauty of it. And it doesn't mean, know, it's kind of, it's a good teaching moment for them because that's, like I said, that's what I struggled with so much as a child, being like, okay, well, if they don't go to church, are they a bad person? And obviously my kids know that I'm not a bad person. And so I think that has been like the most beautiful, healing my inner child moment to have with them because it's, ⁓ I'm Brynne Erickson (25:27) Bye Heather Campbell (25:29) hoping that it's not as confusing to them as it was to me as a child and I've loved that journey. it's definitely been kind of tricky to navigate, but it's actually worked really, really well so far. Brynne Erickson (25:44) I'm kind of realizing like we didn't even know the questions to ask. It's not that we didn't necessarily have them. We just didn't know how to put them into words or and I think that's why as more information has come out about like the history and such. Now we have more information. Heather Campbell (26:08) Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (26:14) And we have bigger voices and bigger brains and lots of questions. But I think it's, I actually love that so many people are asking these questions because our children get to see us asking them. And so they're being raised in homes that are more. Heather Campbell (26:19) Yes, Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (26:37) friendly, more encouraging, there we go, more encouraging of asking the questions and finding answers for yourself. And I think that's incredibly empowering. Heather Campbell (26:38) Okay, what's question? Yes. Absolutely. I think so too. Because yeah, when I was a child, yeah, like you said, I didn't know how to voice that, like, well, I don't feel safe asking questions, you know, it's just so scary when you're little, you know, because the church is so all encompassing. And like you said, it's when you're little, it feels so black and white, like, this is right. if you're struggling with aligning with what they're teaching, it's like, okay, well, I'm the problem then like, what's... what's wrong with me and it's just it's it's really scary and so yeah I think that's like the biggest flex for our generation I always talk about this with Tyler just that we are more open-minded and not scared of questions and being okay with you know being in the middle gray area on some topics whereas I feel like when we were kids it was more like black and white and nowadays people are Brynne Erickson (27:42) Mm-hmm. Heather Campbell (27:46) comfortable with, you know, kind of being in the middle because the more that I have talked to people, I've realized that a lot of people actually do struggle in the same way that I have. And that was so eye opening to me because for so long it felt like I was the only one and it felt incredibly isolating. But then to hear other people like openly talk about their struggles, it's like so refreshing because you're like, okay, I'm actually not alone. But for me, it was always just like, I just feel everything so strongly that I just couldn't, it was hard for me to, ⁓ not stay in the struggle like week to week, you know what I mean? It just felt like a self-entrails over and over. And so for other people that can keep going to church and just kind of say, you know, not let it like take over, I wish that could have been me, but that wasn't my experience. And so, but I do think, yeah, that people are so great at being open-minded more nowadays, which makes it so much easier for people like me to feel safe. Brynne Erickson (28:37) Mm-hmm. Awesome. So good. So what is guiding you today? Heather Campbell (29:01) Honestly, I just let love guide me. I try to just lead everything with love. My parenting, my marriage, and just making decisions day to day. I do believe in a higher power. I don't know what that is. Like, I've never really named it, and that's okay to me. Like, I don't feel the need to... know what it is or give it a name. But I do believe in a higher power and I feel comfort in knowing that I can ask for help and guidance when I need it. And that's been a lot better way for me to connect and feel like more spiritual. But like love. is really what I try to lead with and let me guide my decisions. And that has been just so much more in alignment with me. Brynne Erickson (30:05) What's been the biggest difference since you've stepped away from organized religion? Heather Campbell (30:12) Just feeling like, just feeling lighter. Not feeling weighed down by shame and feeling like I'm not enough and feeling like I should be doing more or acting a certain way and feeling like I choose myself and that I choose what's best for me. rather than pleasing everyone else around me. And I was thinking about this earlier today, just how I think so many people who are members of the church and have loved ones step away, they don't realize that it is the most gut wrenching, heartbreaking process for the person who is stepping away. hardest thing we've ever done and it's just, it's not easy on our side either. if friends and families of members of people who step away could just look at it for your love, it's such a better experience for everybody because it's not easy on our side either. And I can't tell you how many, you know, again, like I said, like at my kids baptisms and at church things, it comes up every single time. I just sit there and go, why can't I do this? Why can't I just come to church and be happy and participate and have it be a happy experience for me? so for me, it's just been so refreshing to know that I choose myself instead of feeling like I'd be training myself every Sunday and making other people happy by doing what they think I should be doing. I choose myself and I'm myself and my nervous system feel safe because I'm aligning with what feels good to me. Brynne Erickson (32:12) think when we put so much of our trust and who we are into something outside of us, that's when we... It's hard to come back to yourself. I don't know if I'm saying this right. Heather Campbell (32:30) when get what you're saying. Brynne Erickson (32:32) It's almost like you don't even know what you truly believe because you've just believe been believing what everyone has told you to believe. Not to say that you would actually take to heart what you have been taught and the principles and the messaging and all of it. But, and I think this applies not only to religion, just like health advice and dieting and mothering and schooling and vaccinations. Like you hear those voices that you Heather Campbell (32:39) That's. Mm-hmm. once. That's. I'm in. Brynne Erickson (33:02) trust and then just because they're saying things that you like, you take them on as your own. But I think there's a difference between just being, like that, thinking I like that, and then actually taking it in and sitting with it. I don't know if that makes any sense. Heather Campbell (33:03) Mm-hmm. No, it does. And I think that that's one of the hardest parts about stepping away from organized religion. had to, I think I actually wrote them down in a notebook and literally went through my entire beliefs of some one by one and said, okay, does this align with me and who I want to be and where I'm trying to go? Or was this taught to me by somebody else? And I've just never questioned it. And I think there's such a freedom. in that and I think women in our generation are so good at doing that and like you said in everything in health and in mothering and just say okay well that works for the majority of people but is it does it feel good to me like does that feel right to me and I think there's so much power in letting yourself decide and listening to your own intuition and I think That was something that I really struggled with going to church and I didn't know what it was when I was younger. But now looking back, it was my own intuition and I didn't listen to it for a really, really long time. And when you do that for so long, know your nervous system is on overload and you don't feel safe and it puts so much stress on your body and... It's just a really good feeling when you finally choose yourself and say, you know what? I love that if that works for you and if that's your truth, that's amazing. But for me, that doesn't feel right to me. And I think there's so much just beauty in allowing, like in trusting yourself and letting yourself decide and not pleasing other people. Brynne Erickson (35:08) and I love how you keep using that phrase of choosing yourself, but all along the way, you've not only chosen yourself, but you've also taken into consideration the people that you love. It's not just whatever, I'm just going to live my life and you guys have to deal with it, right? It's I'm going to honor what I need, but I'm also going to try and honor what you need too. But I'm going to do it in a way that aligns with me. Heather Campbell (35:18) Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. exactly. Brynne Erickson (35:37) And I'm not just going to do it the way that all of you think I should be doing it. And that's the difference. And it can be both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It really can be both. Heather Campbell (35:40) Yes, exactly. I can. I can. I can. And I always think of this same situation in ⁓ when somebody is leaving the church and they're telling their friends and family. Their reaction is so important and it can be both. Like you just said, you are more than welcome. to disagree with me stepping away, but you can voice it in a way that's respectful. And that's what I've always tried to be respectful and loving and kind to anyone who's still, you know, who enjoy the church and it's their truth. And a lot of the times I think people expect you to respect. them, but then you don't get that reciprocated and it's really hard. And so if anyone listens to this and experiences having a loved one step away, there's so much power in just saying, wow, I bet that is so hard. How can I support you? Instead of judging and belittling and telling them that they're making a mistake and discounting their experiences. Brynne Erickson (36:35) Yeah. Heather Campbell (37:03) There is so much power in being loving and supportive and you can think that they're making a mistake but your love and support is everything. could be because like I said, it's the most heart-wrenching, heartbreaking thing that I've ever done and so to have the love and support of your loved ones is everything. Brynne Erickson (37:27) And I'm just going to voice the flip side to that too. Just from what I've observed, one honesty is always the best policy. So even when we are voicing things that we know our family members hold dear and they actually want us to stay. ⁓ it's important to remember that if they do react out of fear, Heather Campbell (37:46) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Brynne Erickson (37:56) It's because they love us and they want us to do the church thing. Right? Because we know the theology. We know what it's at stake. If it really is true that we all have to do the covenant thing to be together. so even when our loved ones do react in a way that seems irrational or unsupportive, it's, it's been helpful for me to one look at a lens of compassion, but to also Heather Campbell (38:09) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (38:23) see that as a way of them being honest. And it is okay for us to be like, you know, this really breaks my heart, but I also want to be here for you. Heather Campbell (38:29) Yes. Exactly. Brynne Erickson (38:34) I've never done this before. Can we figure this out together? Heather Campbell (38:39) Yep, exactly. Brynne Erickson (38:41) and that honesty and compassion hand in hand and giving each other the benefit of the doubt and choosing love, right? Like all of those things, I think if we tried to approach these hard situations, no matter what it is, even not religion, but a divorce, like we're getting divorced or whatever other things that are really hard to talk about. If we can be honest, compassionate. Heather Campbell (38:44) it is. and Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (39:07) and just give people the benefit of the doubt. think so, yeah, because we're all evolving and we're all changing and we don't agree all the time. And that's the whole point, I think. That's kind of what I'm concluding. Heather Campbell (39:10) It goes a way. you Yes, and I think people are uncomfortable, or uncomfortable, disagreeing, especially with like your family and your friends. Like it feels uncomfortable if you disagree because, lot of relationships are built on, what you agree on. And so when somebody's stepping away, it brings up a lot of discomfort. And yeah, I think honesty is completely fine. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (39:31) Yeah. Heather Campbell (39:49) I agree with everything you said, it's really refreshing when people can come at it with the love and support alongside the honesty. It just makes it so much easier on the person who might be stepping away. Brynne Erickson (40:05) Yeah, definitely. So what is the purpose of life for you now, Heather? Heather Campbell (40:11) I think that the purpose of life is to love and be loved and to just keep learning and growing. I think we already talked about how boring would it be if we just stayed stagnant all the time but continually trying to evolve and move forward and just staying in alignment with you know who you truly are and just finding your true authentic self, that's been where I've really found purpose. again, I always lead with love. So I would say love to love and to be loved. Brynne Erickson (40:54) And that is a lifelong endeavor because it's not very easy to love yourself all the time and love other people. Heather Campbell (40:56) Mm-hmm. No, it's not. Yes, definitely not. Yep. It doesn't mean it's easy, but learning those hard lessons over and over and then being able to say, okay, I'm going to do that a little bit better next time. There's something so amazing and so refreshing about that and just not expecting yourself to be perfect and allowing yourself to make mistakes and learn those lessons. It's, it's very refreshing. Brynne Erickson (41:14) rate. Yeah, it really is. Okay, last question to leave us with. What's some advice you would give to someone that's in the thick of their hard questions and their doubts right now? Heather Campbell (41:39) I love this question. I would just say don't be afraid to choose yourself and to listen to your own intuition, especially if it's something that keeps coming up over and over and over and it's on your heart and you know, you just can't let it go. There's probably a reason for that. And it's okay to choose yourself and it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. It won't be easy. ⁓ but it's going to be okay and it gets easier and find a support system. Find safe people that you can talk to that will love you and support you even if they disagree with you. That is huge. And if you don't have that support system, you just, have to choose yourself and it's okay to choose yourself and it's okay to make other people uncomfortable. and their reactions and their opinions are none of your business. It's, and it's hard when it's family and friends, but honestly, living with yourself day in and day out ⁓ is more important than pleasing other people. And you'll never regret choosing yourself and doing what's best for you. being in alignment with what feels right for you, even if it's different from other people. Brynne Erickson (43:14) Yeah, 100%. How do you view been able to find those safe spaces? Heather Campbell (43:20) I am so lucky. I, yeah, I just, they've been there for me. My sister is incredible. She, so I'm very lucky because my top three safe people are all active members of the church, but they are incredibly open-minded and they are so loving and supportive and, Brynne Erickson (43:24) Yeah Heather Campbell (43:50) I think if you don't, if that's not your experience, I think just being vulnerable and honest and being in a good head space and having good energy, you will attract people who can be your safe person. So like I said, I'm lucky because my three closest people just happened to all these people for me. And I know that's not the case for a lot of people, but Brynne Erickson (44:13) you Heather Campbell (44:19) I think being vulnerable and honest will help you find your safe people. Brynne Erickson (44:25) Yes. And it's okay if you open up to someone and it isn't received the way that you want it to be, but then you know, like, oh, okay, I won't bring this up anymore to you. And that's okay. We'll talk about pets and flowers, right? But we don't have to talk about religion. Heather Campbell (44:34) Yep, so it's a learning experience. Yep, it's a learning experience. Exactly. And it's really empowering. Yeah, it's very empowering to just be able to meet people where they are, because a lot of times, you know, they're caught off guard. They're not in good headspace. They're having a hard day. And that's okay, because we're all human. And so to not, you know, hold on to that and just... Brynne Erickson (44:48) Absolutely. Amen. Mm-hmm. Heather Campbell (45:04) know, give them the benefit of the doubt is really empowering in that situation and to not expect people to act a certain way because that's just, it's not fair. Brynne Erickson (45:11) Yeah. I agree. putting that expectation on someone when they don't even know. Like that's totally unfair to them setting you both up for not success. Heather Campbell (45:18) is. Yes. Exactly. Brynne Erickson (45:27) Heather, you gave great words of wisdom tonight on how to navigate a mixed faith marriage, to choose yourself, and even some great insight for those of us that are trying to support those that are on their faith expansion or stepping away and transitioning out of religion. So thank you so much for your time. You're such a light. You're awesome. Heather Campbell (45:29) Thank you. Thank Thank you and I love everything that you're doing and again thank you for creating a safe space and just being able to talk about these hard topics in a way that doesn't feel scary is I think what a lot of us need so I love everything that you're doing. Brynne Erickson (46:03) ⁓ I appreciate that encouragement. It's kind of scary sometimes. So, but I felt a need because I've been there and it's hard and it feels really isolating and scary. And I think we can change that narrative with the more information that we have. So, okay. Thanks friend. Heather Campbell (46:06) It is. ⁓ Thanks. I love that you do. Of course.