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Throwback: Aztec Dinosaurs w/ Dr. David Anderson! · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_06: This episode is sponsored by Archeo Gato Tours.
• 0:04
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• 0:09
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• 0:15
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• 0:27
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• 0:33
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• 0:39
  SPEAKER_06: Or just follow the link in the show notes.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_06: Now, on with the show.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_07: You must excuse me.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_07: I've grown quite well.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: This hasn't been easy and no.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_04: But you've learned a lesson.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: A lesson in honesty.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: Honesty to yourself and honesty to others.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: That lesson will stand you in good step on your life.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: I think we've all learned a good lesson.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_04: Now I'm catching on to why that's so, no, why that's so why that's so why that's the other one.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_06: Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to yet another episode of Tales from Ostlantis.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_06: We are your hosts, Curly Tapoyawa.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_06: And Romanariano Tlacatekat.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_05: What is going on, my brother?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: How are you doing today?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_05: Chilling, chilling like a villain.
• 1:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_05: As we used to say back in the day.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_06: It's uh it's mad humid here.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_06: It's hot and then it rained, and now it's really uncomfortable outside.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, today's supposed to be like the peak day for uh the next couple of weeks, and after today is gonna start kind of petering out, so uh it's still hot.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh no rain in sight.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_05: We're still under that heat dome.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: The heat dome.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_06: It's it's uh I don't know, that's just not a good sounding name.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: I hear it's headed over to where our our guest today lives up in the really on in that area.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_06: Nice doctor, Dr.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_06: uh David S.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_06: David S.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson, Dr.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_06: David S.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_06: I'm very excited to have uh our guest on today.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_06: We spoke well we met uh in person just uh like a couple months ago um in Portland, Oregon for the SAAs, which is like the national conference for archaeologists and stuff.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_06: So it was very cool.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_06: I did a brief interview with him there, but I've always wanted to get him back on uh to talk proper, to have a proper episode with Dr.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_06: David S.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_06: Uh David Anderson is an instructor with Radford University and holds his degrees from Tulane University and the University of Illinois, Urbana Champagna.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_06: How do you pronounce that?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_06: His research interests include public archaeology and the conceptions of heritage, the formative period of Maya in Mesoamerican culture, the origins and development of sociopolitical complexity, and academic engagement with pseudoscience and pseudo-archaeology.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_06: So that's right up our alley.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_06: Dr.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson's current publication projects include weirding archaeology, unearthing the strange influences on the popular perception of archaeology and the pre-classic settlement of northwest Yucatan, recharting the pathway to complexity.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_06: So, with much excitement, I am proud to introduce our guest for today, Dr.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_06: David S.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_06: How are you, Dr.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome, welcome.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_10: Doing excellent curly and Rubin, thank you so much for having me on the show proper.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_10: I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and so I am very excited.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, this is great.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_06: Um we uh we got to meet at the SAAs.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_06: We were on the the panel discussion together at the SAAs about pseudo-archaeology, which was really well received um and had way more people in attendance than I thought there would be.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_10: It was it was a great showing.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_10: It was great to meet you there.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_10: It was great to see several new faces there too.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_10: It's a a discussion, uh a fight.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_10: I don't like calling it a fight, but it is something that you know, I think when I started talking about pseudo-archaeology stuff and getting invested in this, there weren't a ton of people paying attention to it.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_10: And there was a lot of dismissal of it's not worth anyone's time or attention.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_10: And it brings me no end of joy to see so many more people engaging with this topic.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_10: And so that's I I love that you guys are doing this podcast uh that helps highlight some of these issues so often because I mean they these are the sort of problems that I don't think we can just sweep under the rug and ignore.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_10: If we don't talk about them, they don't get better, we don't get them fixed.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_06: And um, yeah, when when I walked into the room where the panel was at, it was what in one of the biggest rooms there, if not the biggest.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_06: And uh we had that place rocking.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_06: I was it was good to see that many many archaeologists have an interest in this topic, like you were saying, because you know, in the past we've tended to ignore the topic as being, you know, now it's not worth our time, and it just left this gap, and now that gap is being actively filled by like Joe Rogan and Graham Hancock, and you know, exactly what's named Randall Carlson, you know, guys like that, ancient aliens the archaeological greats right there.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_10: How many minutes in did we go before we had to start talking about Rogan?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_05: I was like, god damn it already.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_05: Could we wait 30 minutes at least?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_06: Uh not as not a smart man.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_06: So today we're going to talk about a topic that has always piqued my interest, and I've never really done like a deep dive into it.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_06: And I know you are one of the main individuals to speak to about this, and that's the uh the accombro figurines.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_06: Um so you know, let's let's just kick it off.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_06: What what are the like what's the popular version of the story of the accombo figurines?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_10: So the the really short story here is that in the late 1940s, uh this guy named Voldemort Yulser, this German businessman living in the town of Acombro in Guanajuato, Mexico, um started collecting ceramic figurines.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_10: And some of them are probably Tarascan, some of them are probably pretty normal, sort of pre-Hispanic, Mesoamerican figurines, but um a lot of them look really weird, and he got really excited about the weird ones.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_10: And uh the most famous pieces out of here are the dinosaurs, and so there's a whole bunch of figurines that show very reptilian-like things, some that look very much like a dinosaur, like a brontosaurus.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_10: Uh there, and then there are some that um show humans interacting with the the reptilian dinosaur y sort of creatures.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_10: Uh there's there's one, I've there's one.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_10: If you Google this on the internet, you'll get one where a guy is like riding a triceratops.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_10: And I don't know where that picture came from.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, that's a really popular picture.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, it's amazing.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_10: And I I I've I've seen some of these things in person, we can talk about that.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_10: Uh but um there's allegedly more than 32,000 of these from the original collection.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_10: Well, and so I've certainly not seen them all.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_10: And so, you know, there's there there's a big problem of which ones really are the real thing and which aren't.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_10: And you know, it when they were originally found, uh Jules Rude, uh, the German collector basically argued that they were evidence of Atlantis, which is a long story.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, obviously.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_10: You know, to this day.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_05: All roads lead to Atlantis.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_10: And to this day they're popular with young Earth creationist folks who want to argue that humans and dinosaurs lived side by side with one another.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_05: I wonder if Hannah Barbera and uh what was the other guy that did the Flintstones?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_05: If they were inspired by the uh Comaro uh never tried to chase that rabbit hole.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know when the Flintstones debused, but these things were popular, or they were sort of out and about in the 50s and a little bit.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_05: I think the Flintstones debuted in 1960, if I'm not mistaken.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_05: So there's a chance.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there's a chance then that they might have heard of this.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_06: My the one the figure that you were talking about of the individual writing, the uh the triceratops always reminded me of that movie from God, was it 1968, 1969, called The Valley of Guanji.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_06: Have you ever seen that one?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_06: I don't think I've seen that one.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_06: No, it's um it's cowboys and dinosaurs, basically.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_06: It's uh these cowboys encounter dinosaurs and and you know wind up riding the triceratops.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_06: So I wonder if the makers of the Valley of Guanji were inspired by the figure.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_10: Fabulous.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_10: In 1952, a lot of the reasons this story got picked up in the United States was there was an article published in Fate magazine, and it got to be the cover story for that issue of Fate magazine, and that also has these sort of like group of people in leopard skinny sort of outfits riding a triceratops, too.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_10: And it's a fabulous image unto itself, and so I'm sure that it's you know, all of these ideas have been circling around for a while.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so you tell me you own that Faith, like in like Fate.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, Fate, yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_05: I was like Faith, Faith Magazine.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_10: Fate magazine is a is a well that I've only like partially jumped down.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_10: I need to spend a lot more time with one of these days.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_10: It uh it debuts, I think, in 1948, might be 1947, uh, but it is basically an organ to popularize UFOs.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, okay, kind of publishes all starts publishing a whole bunch of paranormal stuff, uh, and it starts to publish a lot of pseudo-archaeology stuff right away in the first issue of the magazine.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks Fate magazine.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_10: So basically the equivalent of clickbait to yeah, it is like, you know, you're you're it's a it's they had incredible cover illustrations through uh the 50s and 60s, and for some reason dropped those in the 70s, but it is some wild, like late-era pulp fiction style illustrations with a lot of pseudo science and pseudo-archaeology and UFOs sort of like dashed in the mix.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_06: That's funny.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_06: That reminds me of uh like in the 1980s when I would go rent movies at the video store, and the boxes always had this amazing art, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_06: Right, and it seemed like they spent all of the money on the artwork for the movie, like uh Death Stalker or Beastmaster or something.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_06: They had these amazing images, and you're like, holy shit, this movie's gonna be amazing! And then you were in the crab, like, wow, this movie was made for like 50 bucks, and it looks nothing like so.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_06: It's it's uh you know uh similar in that Fate magazine sold you this, you know, fantastical imagery, and then they just they were just selling you a bill of goods because it was all nonsense.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_10: I love the advertisements.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I've got some PDFs of old issues, and there's you know all sorts of advertisements for new age spiritualism and ancient mysteries that will be your towarts or whatever else you've got going on.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_06: Do you own the issue with the Combro figurines?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_10: I don't have a physical copy now.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_10: I they I I've looked for I haven't gone out of my way to try to find them.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_10: They don't show up at the like I I go to comic book conventions whenever I can because I love that stuff, and I've never seen them there, uh, which surprises me a little bit.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but um, I guess I have to I have to find the right venue for where they're actually selling them.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_10: I you can find them on eBay, but uh I don't I don't trust the condition of older magazines on eBay without wanting to see it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_06: So back to Voldemar, how do you say his name?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_06: Julesrude?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_06: Voldemar Yulsrude.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yulesrude.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_06: Um I've you know I poked around on the internet and it seems like he was a businessman, although on the young earth creationist sites they identify him as a legitimate archaeologist, and they leave out that he was a shopkeeper.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_06: So what was going on there?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, the um he was, as far as I understand, from an article written by a friend of his, in essence.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_10: You know, he was born in Germany.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know what brought him to Mexico in particular, but he owned the local hardware shop uh and lived in uh Acamborough for at least 20, 25 years, uh, sort of a good chunk of his life.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_10: Uh he is described as having a university degree.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, this is one of the defenses that's put out that he wouldn't have fallen for a hoax because he has a university education.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_10: Uh but Okay.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_10: I I have never seen him make any claims or anyone around him claim for him to have any archaeological training.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_10: In fact, he's usually upset that uh archaeologists won't come and look at his findings or are dismissing his findings.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and so uh I I don't think he had any personal training that I'm aware of, but uh and certain, yeah, not that I've ever heard.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, did he have advanced training in archaeological?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, just having a bachelor's uh doesn't mean that you're an expert in anything, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_05: Like you have to have at least a master's to to or some solid field work under your field work.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I think that's one of the biggest confusions and misconceptions uh that the public has when when they read uh and listen to these folks that uh present themselves as experts in the field.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_05: It's like if you do some research and you dig in into their background, you realize that they just maybe took a class in in college and now all of a sudden they're experts in the field.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like uh it takes a little more than that.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_05: It takes some expertise, some some field work, and and being like in my case, as a historian, being in the archives and and digging through through records to really consider yourself a professional historian, but hey, what do I know?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just negid, right?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_06: Well, speaking of uh actual experts, um Charles De Peso, who was an archaeologist from uh Arizona, I believe, uh looked at the Acambro figures at one point, right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_10: He Yeah, he actually got sent down by the Amarind uh Association or Foundation, I think it's Foundation uh to check it out.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_10: Uh because in essence, um the uh Yulesroot started collecting these things sometime in the mid to late 40s, and he got uh some friendly journalistic coverage in Mexico and then uh some articles in LA as well, and uh one of the newspapers in Los Angeles.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_10: And um then I'm not sure the the Fate magazine article that I mentioned comes out in 1952, uh where so that then you're getting national coverage in the United States at least.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_10: And also in 1952, De Peso went down to check this out.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_10: And I don't I don't know if the Fate magazine came first or if he went down there first, uh, but you were getting public attention on these.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_10: And so, you know, in essence, you know, there's several like allegedly other archaeologists went and checked this site out as well.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but de peso goes down, and there's an American antiquity article about this uh that he wrote, and I think there's a second article that he wrote about this as well at one point.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_10: Um he goes down and basically like takes a look at these figurines and with within moments realizes that this is a sham.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_10: Uh that yeah, that these, especially the dinosaur figurines, are not real.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_10: And he points out some of the basic things that we as archaeologists know you're going to have a patina.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_10: There is going to be a an aging process that happens to any ceramic figurine that you, you know, some you know, some fakers do try to replicate patinas in one way or another, uh, but generally you only get that patina if it's actually old.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_10: You only get the salts encrusted in there if it's actually old.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_10: And he's like, Well, they have no patina.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_10: And he points out that they're um one, and I can confirm this because I've seen some, they're incredibly like poorly made.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_10: They are very lowly fired, uh, and they are solid usually.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_10: They don't have any gaps in them to allow them to dry better and fire better.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_10: And so these are these are you know, someone necessarily, at least the ones I've seen and the ones he saw were something that was very low fired, very poorly made, and so they're very fragile.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_10: Uh nonetheless, he points out that the ones that he was investigating were mostly whole and typically didn't have any breaks.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_10: Or when they did have breaks, you know, all the pieces were there to fit it back together, which again, yeah, yeah, very suspicious archaeologically.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_10: And so he's like, These don't look right at all.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_10: And he asks if he can see them being excavated.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_10: And uh some some folks tell him, like, yeah, we can take you out, just not today.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, we gotta salt that site first.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_10: Like, yeah, come back in a little while, right, and then we'll we'll take you out.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_10: And they take him out to uh a house foundation and start digging through the floor of the house, and he says that there's some legitimate artifacts coming out from the whole of the house floor, and they get about a meter down, and all of a sudden there's loose dark topsoil, and they start pulling out whole complete unbroken figurines.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and he says he was like walking around and noticed that there was uh sort of a side tunnel coming out here that he thought that they basically dug in, buried these things, backfilled it.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_05: Man, that's elaborate.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_05: That's an elaborate hoax there.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_05: They dug a tunnel to get underneath the topsoil so that when he witnessed the the digging, it looks like it's been an undisturbed.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, wow.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's I mean, you have to have to give it to him.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, at least they they knew that much, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_05: They need to pull it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_06: Sounds uh eerily similar to the story of Qual Demok's alleged bug.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_06: I was thinking that same thing right now.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_06: I was like, this sound I didn't want to bring it up because the sidetrack was good.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_05: I was thinking the same thing.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_10: The piece de resistance for a de peso was that there was fresh horse manure like mixed in with the figurines.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_10: Wow.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_06: Like this horse manure can be dated to 300,000 years ago now or some ridiculous thing.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_06: Evidence for the ancient horse in America.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_06: There you go.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_06: Oh man, don't let that get out.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_06: Good grief.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_06: So the the individuals that were doing the excavating, were they do you know if they were just like people from the town or were they employed by uh Jules Jules Root?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_06: I can't say his name.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_06: How do you say it again?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_10: Yules Root.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_10: It's like all right.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_10: So it's you know, who's in charge and you know, and who was doing what and why it was being faked is is one of those things I don't want to like blame anybody.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_10: I don't think this was a deliberate hoax per se.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_10: Um the the way uh this guy, Charles Hopkitt, who comes along later uh working for Yules Rood, tells the story.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_10: Yules Rood found a couple of figurines when he was out riding a horse one day and basically told locals, I would like some more of these, and I will pay you a peso apiece if you bring me a figurine.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_10: Boom.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_10: So it seems a little bit like they just started bringing in figurines, and when they couldn't find any more figurines, maybe they just started making some figurines to give to him.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_10: And I think it just kind of snowballed again.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_10: As I said, there's allegedly 32,000 of these things.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_06: And that explains it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_06: If he's if he's paying, yeah, if he's paying cash money for these, we're gonna find a lot.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I mean, I mean, also the fact that you have if if there's that large amount of of figurines that have been found that are supposed to be ancient or you know, pre-invasion, um you would think that there would be evidence of these throughout Mesoamerica and not just in the Cambaro, because presumably if they're making that much, they're at least trading some of them for something.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_05: One of them, you you wouldn't be able, you I mean, if there's that many, first of all, that's that's a a huge amount for there to be even found, but even to have been made at the time and to just be collected in one place and not have been distributed.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_05: Like that's just on the face of it, is ridiculous to to accept that as a fact.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_05: But um, so I guess what I'm what what I'm getting is that there's actually a uh a small amount of figurines that are legitimately old and archaeological, and and those are those housed separately from all the the the ones that were made afterwards?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and are they in the same collection?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_05: Are they in different collections?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: Um how do you how do people know the difference between those two?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_05: It's hard.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_10: And I am mostly presuming that there are some legitimate figurines in this collection.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_10: Uh there allegedly, I've not had the chance.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_10: I wanted to try, I was trying to raise some funds like immediately pre-COVID to try and go to a comparable for myself, and and that all fell apart, and I haven't gotten back to that.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_10: Allegedly, the museum's still there, it might have closed down the last few years.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_10: That's where the bulk of the collection is.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_10: When most of the photographs, I've so I've seen some.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_10: The University of Pennsylvania has a small collection.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_10: I've seen those.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_10: Uh I believe I saw another one at a BB here in Virginia, which is a whole nother story.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_10: Okay.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_10: And uh otherwise, they should basically all be in a combo row still in the the Museum that was Jules Rude's house.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_10: There's a bunch of photographs from sort of the 60s and 70s that have been published, and they they tended to take close-up pictures of a few of the really dramatic ones, uh, and uh then just photographs of large piles of figurines.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and it's there the quality of those photos and the reprints that I have is way too poor to be able to say much about them other than that they are there.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and then um there's um there are some online and the ones that I basically ironically the the photos of these that I trust online are from a young earth creationist group uh that went down in I think it was the early 2000s uh to look at the collection in a cumbro and they published a bunch of pictures on their webpage uh and they branded them all with their webpage like Bible.ca or something like that.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_10: And um it's uh they, of course, were entirely interested in the dinosaur figurines, and so they basically only took figure pictures of dinosaur figurines uh because it proved that as far as they were concerned, it proved that human dinosaur interaction phase.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_10: And so I I would love to get my hands on and see this complete collection if it still uh exists today.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and I don't know if you've have you gone to the website bible.ca it's it's awesome.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_06: It looks like it was made, but in like 1996.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_06: Using all the latest technology, uh like on a tripod site or something, like it was uh it's pretty wild.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_06: Geoscapes, yes, that's geoscapes.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_06: That's about the quality of these.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_06: And when you look at the the collection, it's funny because, like you said, there are some legitimate pieces there.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_06: And it's so obvious when when you look at photos, you're like, okay, well, that looks legit.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_06: And then right next to it is like the worst looking thing you've ever seen in your life.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_06: It looks it's it looks like the stuff that your kids would make in in school when they're given a hunk of play-doh, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_06: And like, here, make a dinosaur, and they would make a dinosaur.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that since this was presumably a cash cow for the individuals uh who were excavating these, quote unquote, that the poor quality lends itself to the idea that they were just churning these things out, right?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_06: They weren't putting a lot of time or effort into them.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_06: If he was buying them and he wasn't complaining about their authenticity or the quality of the work, then you could just churn out as many as you want.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, if 33,000, 34,000 of these things, that's that's some good money.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, you know, clay's free.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_06: So you just make some of these.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_06: It's um so I found a headline from 1952 Los Angeles Times, and dig this headline.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_06: This is great.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_06: Mexico finds give hint of lost world.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_06: Dinosaur statues point to men who lived in age of reptiles.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_06: That's a great highly sensationalistic, but nonetheless, uh, you know, attention-grabbing headline.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_06: Shame on you, Los Angeles Times.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_05: What was the name of that movie that came out um uh back in I think the 50s where people go back in time and they they get lost in in the dinosaur world?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_05: Was it a show?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_05: Was it a show or a movie?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_05: I'm trying to remember what it was.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh the one with the slee stacks.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_05: Was it called The Lost World?
• 25:43
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• 25:45
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• 25:51
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• 25:55
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• 26:11
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• 26:19
  SPEAKER_06: And now, on with the show.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, maybe that's what I'm thinking about.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_10: And it's one movie.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_10: Land of the lost.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_10: That's what it is, Land of the Lost.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_10: Now, and uh these figurines later on uh in the 50s get compared specifically to Conan Doyle's Lost World.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_10: And that's you know, one of the suggestions is that maybe it wasn't maybe there's a little bit more time gap going on here, uh that this would be a relic population of dinosaurs that lived much longer than other uh populations of dinosaurs.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: Would you would you call these people archaeological, well, maybe not archaeological, but stakeholders?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_05: You've written uh about this, uh, I believe, where you um I believe you uh on in one a paper that you wrote, I think it's called uh Archaeological Positivism and Cultural Plurality.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: Is that your paper?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_05: And and you you cite Rick Savage and that show that he had American Digger, and then uh you you quote him and and you you kind of uh draw the uh the parallel and the irony of people like him who are doing what they do for a living, and then his comment about how you know it's almost the same thing for you know academic professional archaeologists who are seeking tenure.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so would would you say that there's there's a parallel with that going on here in terms of what these people are doing?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_10: Savage said, because he was uh he had the very short-lived TV show uh where they were digging up artifacts and selling them.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_10: In essence, uh at one point, I think it was in an interview or maybe it was in the show, he said that he needs this because it's how he makes money and puts food on his table.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_10: And he said the academics don't need it, they're just going to publish another paper.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and I think you know, the especially for me, as a I was a younger academic at that point and uh looking for a job, and I was like, hell yeah, I want to publish a paper because if I don't publish a paper, I don't get to put food on my table either, because that's how I get my job as an academic.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_10: That's how I keep my job as an academic, is publishing papers.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and I think you know, there's there's some similarity going on here, certainly for the residents of a Combo, whoever it was who was making these things.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_10: You know, you got a strange foreigner running shop in town, says he'll give you a peso apiece for a figurine.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_10: I'm gonna make some figurines.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_10: Like, you know, I think it's completely understandable that if there's an easy way to make money, that someone's going to do that.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_10: And that's Mexican resourcefulness right there.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_06: That's that's just being industrious.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_06: And and you see that the same kind of thing today with the tour guides.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_06: Um, you know, a lot of these tour guides will feed into the esoteric new age nonsense that tourists ask when they take them to uh Teocali or a temple or the pseudo history as well.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and pseudo history, they'll kind of feed into that, they'll play into it because that's what the tourists want to hear, right?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_06: If they're excited about it, they'll be like, Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_06: And uh, you know, are there any connections between these people in Atlantis?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_06: And hey, a Mexican tour guide's gonna be like, sure, yes.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and you know, give me a good tip at the end and I'll tell you whatever you want to hear.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_06: And I've known, you know, I've encountered people, I haven't known them, but you know, I'll get messages online from individuals who've been on tours that'll try to argue with me by saying, you know, well, I was at such and such spot, and the tour guide told me that they were this, and I'm like, well, of course he did.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_06: Like, well, come on.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: The tour guide said that shouldn't be on the t-shirt.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_05: The tour guide told me that this is real.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_06: So the uh the young earth creationists really glommed on to this um idea and they established that I'm assuming it was the young earth creationist that established the museum in his house, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_10: I'm not that I'm aware of like the website in particular that we were talking about, that was a group that went down to visit.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, okay, okay.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_10: As far as I understand, the museum was simply founded, you know, either by the town itself or uh any of Yulsrud's family members after he passed.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_10: As I understand it, it's his house that was turned into the museum.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_10: And and in fact, uh there are descriptions of his house from when he was living there before he passed that you know just said every room was filled with these figurines.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_10: And so I think it kind of already was a museum, and so they probably just you know left the house as it was and started, you know, selling tickets.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_05: Did you say that you have you been there to the museum?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_05: You haven't.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: I'm curious how big this place is and like how much stuff they actually have out displayed, and like like what what's that experience going into like someone's you know, house turned into a museum?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like as soon as you walk in, you're hit with because we're talking about 30.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I can't imagine them displaying 30,000 figurines on that they're super small.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, how big are these things?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_05: Are they pretty big?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_05: Are they kind of small?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, most of them uh that I have seen and with any kind of scale to them are gonna run from sort of 10 centimeters up to 30 or 40 centimeters.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, so they range, okay.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_10: And uh there's a description of the house briefly in that old uh fate magazine article from 52, where I think it's the same journalist who wrote for the LA Times.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_10: I think it's Russell Wallace, I want to say that I might have that name right uh wrong.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but um, he went down to visit, and uh, according to the the journalist, that it was a 10-room house.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and yet Yulsrid had nowhere to put him up.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_10: He had to go stay somewhere else because the 10-room house was so full of these figurines that he couldn't sleep there.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_10: Wow.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_06: So I found a little so this art uh article, it's called Ancient Aliens, What the Acomborough Hoax says about Mexican identity.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_06: And it gives an interesting description of these figures and some insight, too.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_06: I think it says uh his bizarre initial finding led Yulsru to set up an informal digging site assisted by a local family of farmers.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_06: So I wonder if it's this local family that was just churning these things out.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_06: Like, hey, we've got we've got a man with some money, so let's accommodate him, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_06: And then it goes on to say over 33,000 objects were allegedly recovered, each one more outrageous than the other.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_06: A motley crew of prehistoric creatures, idols, utensils, humanoid figures with Egyptian, African, or Indian features, alien look-alikes, complex architectural compositions, dragons and monsters.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_06: Man.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_06: What is this?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_06: The Pokemon universe, right?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_10: Jules were in love.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_10: The the whole like that he thought there were some Egyptian influences, thought there were some Chinese influences in the figurines, and he was pushing this whole sort of Pangea-esque interpretation that's great.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_10: Uh where that you know all continents had been together before, and this was you know, before plate tectonics was fully understood, right?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_10: And uh he was, you know, and he suggested that Atlantis was in the heart and the middle of course, obviously that eventually broke up, Atlantis sunk, and those humans who used to interact uh are now isolated on different uh continents.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_10: And so you have, in essence, the origin of early racial typologies.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_10: And uh he basically suggests, like, hey, there's Egyptian and Chinese influences in these pot this pottery era.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, it ref represents that time when humanity was unified and all living together and before we got split up.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back after a quick break.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_06: Have you picked up your Mexica calendar for the year twelve Flint?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_06: Or how about a paperback copy of the four disagreements?
• 34:34
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• 34:42
  SPEAKER_06: That's TalesFromostlantis.com for all the latest merchandise.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_06: Now, back to the show.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: Which is weird to to use that as as uh a framework for your supporting that weird argument because if they were all unified, then presumably they all share the same culture.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_05: It wouldn't be Chinese this or you know, Egyptian that, it would be one single uh uh culture that that was universal.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_05: So that's I mean I might be bringing too much logic to this.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_05: The internal logic of these of these weird ideas never never make sense.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_06: Well, Yuzrud self-published a booklet called Enigmas del Pasado or Enigmas of the Past.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_06: Have you read this?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_06: I'm I'm curious.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_06: I wonder if there's a PDF of this somewhere, because uh I want to re I want to see what he says in his own words, like how he's describing these things.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_06: And then there was a uh an exhibition, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_06: Um Pennsylvania University Museum organized this exhibition.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_06: Can you talk about that a little?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_05: But before you do that, can you please explain how these things ended up in that in Pennsylvania?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_05: At first of all, like how did how did that happen?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, the the this is where the story gets wild.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, because in essence, uh we we talked about Charles De Peso going down and debunking this stuff, and that pissed Heel's root off, something fierce.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, because you have this archaeologist coming in saying these things aren't real.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and so you know, he there's a a letter I actually have a copy of um where he uh the the local municipal president uh writes a letter saying, like, there's no one in this town faking figurines, like, how dare a foreigner come in here and say this uh and and whatnot.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_10: And this is around the same time that the the first Fate magazine article gets published.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_10: And Fate, as I said, you know, this is where UFOs are being written about.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_10: This is an early out uh outlet for spiritualism and new age spiritualism as it's developing in the United States.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_10: And somehow, I don't know if it's straight from the Fate magazine or not, but this guy named Arthur Young gets involved.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_10: And Arthur Young uh was uh I this uh all I understand about this is from his Wikipedia page.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_10: He apparently invented the helicopter, uh, and that made him very wealthy.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and uh but you know, he's a wealthy individual living in the city of Philadelphia, and either from the fate article or somewhere else, he he learns about the uh these figurines, and he has an organization that he had created called the Foundation for the Study of Consciousness.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_10: And he decides that he wants to get involved.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_06: Sounds totally legitimate.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_10: Very like it is this is straight up like awesome mid-century spiritualism stuff.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_10: He wants to get involved, and so he ends up uh paying for, or his foundation ends up paying for a guy named Charles Hapgood to go down to a combo row and study these figurines.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and then ultimately, and and Hapgood wrote a couple more articles for fate, and he did other things uh moving forward in the 60s and the 70s.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_10: Um, and I I do Hapgood uh wrote a bunch of books.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_10: In fact, he's best known for his book Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, where he argues that you know there's that there, in essence, Hancock uses his uh Hapgood's book all the time.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_10: Uh that there are these ancient maps that show coasts that or must have been documented by a lost civilization 10 to 12,000 years ago.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_10: Umgood, uh actually we can start a fight here right now.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Hapgood did have a uh, I believe just a bachelor's in history from Harvard.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_10: And so that's often held up as his credentials for being someone who has the skills and knowledge to investigate this archaeological investig uh topic.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_05: A professional historian here, uh no.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_05: He goes, sorry.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, it's there's a difference between our crafts, right?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, acquiring information is done differently.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_10: But you know, Hopgood goes down, he runs some excavations uh and uh tries to confirm the results.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and Hopgood's all in.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_10: He you know writes a couple of articles and papers uh on the subject as well, and he's convinced he doesn't believe the Atlantis connection that Yulesroot is pushing, but he's the one who really pushes this.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_10: Like they're old, but not that old, and they're and they're um this relic population of dinosaurs, uh, and you know, like the lost world.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_10: In the meantime, he keeps pushing this stuff, like Yulesroot and Hapka keep pushing this stuff, and Arthur Young and the Foundation for Consciousness keep pushing this stuff.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_10: And Young, I presume, although I'm not certain, was donating money to the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_10: And museums to this day are very beholden to their donors.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_10: And they ultimately, there's a series of correspondence that uh I've seen I got to go to the uh I went up to visit uh the museum and look at their collection of these artifacts, and they have a uh archive with the correspondence between all the people uh setting up this show, and by the I think it's the mid-50s, like 55, 56, or 54, 55, uh the museum uh ends up putting on a show of a combro figurines, and they agree to do it uh, in essence, only if they can present them as controversial.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_10: And they they collect a bunch of um clippings from comic books and other things being sold in Mexico at the time, and they basically argue that dragons and dinosaur-esque figurines could have been inspired by people looking at, you know, they had inspiration to turn to to imagine these creatures, and so you actually get you know an Ivy League American university displaying these things, which gives them I mean, they they do so in this like maybe they're not real sort of way, but it ends up giving the whole subject a lot of legitimacy that it still carries for some people to this day.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we're not saying these are real, but here they are.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_05: You decide.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and even the uh the name of the exhibit, right, frames it as a as a question worthy of being explored.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_06: It was called genuine ancient or comic book art question mark.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_10: We love the question mark, right?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, it's the the the trick that the ancient alien folks exploit all the time.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_10: Like we're just asking if it's real or not, and you know, lo and behold, people walk away from those conversations thinking that it's real.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's rough.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_05: And so this guy, uh, what was his first name?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_10: Young Arthur Young.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_05: Arthur Young.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_05: So Arthur Young goes from helicopters to figurines that depict dinosaurs and people living together.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_10: There is definitely an underbelly here of the ancient wisdom tradition.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, the new age spiritualism movement as it develops throughout the 20th century is repeatedly interested in the ancient world.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_10: And they're also repeatedly interested in maybe the academics and the university folks aren't telling us the truth or aren't or aren't really like investigating all possibilities about the ancient world.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_10: And so for me, this is a perfect combination.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_10: You've got somebody who's founded the found, you know, or created the foundation for the study of human consciousness.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_10: Like this is gonna be straight up his alley.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm thinking here, there's a parallel with, for instance, uh Elon Musk and his you know, support and and public advocacy for Graham Hancock and Joe Rogan.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_05: So there's definitely, I mean, you could say that Arthur Young was kind of the Elon Musk uh of his time, right?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I mean, he was doing the same thing.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_05: On the one hand, he's supporting technology that is uh progressing society in a way.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, helicopters, you know, they're there are new technology that have advantages.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_05: And that on the and on the other hand, he's also interested in all this sort of esoteric occult, new agey, uh secret wisdom type uh information that what are they keeping from us, right?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_05: Like those two things for some reason go hand in hand, and here we have a current example of that tradition continuing in the present in light of all the evidence to the contrary.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what is what is it?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, what is has anyone uh been able to decipher decode that like those two things and how they interconnect?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what is it about those two i different seemingly disparate worlds that somehow find common ground?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_10: Coming to mind for me right now is that you know I'm thinking of some of Hapkood's writings as well as some of the earlier writings about the Yelswrit figure.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_10: Hearings where they're sort of vehemently disparaging of the Academy.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_10: And again, this is like the language is exactly the same kind of language that you hear on the Joe Rogan show, uh, etc., when people, you know, are the alternatives that are you know against the mainstream.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_10: And you know, I I love this in particular with the Acambro figurines because they're like they just won't listen to us, they won't accept, they have their dogma and their paradigms that they won't look outside of.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_10: Um we now know dinosaurs have feathers, or at least some of them do.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and there's not a drop of you know that kind of anatomical knowledge that we now know dinosaurs had.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_10: If you want to argue the accommodo figurines were made by somebody who saw dinosaurs, it is no longer even reasonable.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_10: These are 1930s cartoon dinosaurs or 1940s cartoon dinosaurs.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_10: They are not the anatomical creatures that we know them to be through paleontological studies today.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_10: And yet you get all the same vehement liter uh language, right?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_10: Like the academics just won't listen to us.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_10: And I think there is, I think there's, and this is something that like so often I talk to people about pseudo-archaeology, and they're like, the people who like that stuff are dumb or they're idiots, or they, you know, they just don't re understand.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_10: Like, no, like it this is a powerful message to be an outsider fighting for justice or fighting for truth is a powerful position to put yourself in.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_10: And that is something that is gonna draw people in over and over and over again.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_10: And I think it's one that we in the present need to understand that you know, it's I see a lot of people responding to pseudo-archaeology claims.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_10: Like let's Hancock's already in the air, like responding to Hancock with facts, like well, he gets his facts wrong, here are the correct facts.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_10: That's not gonna change anybody's mind.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, there's a mindset and a worldview and a desire to be an outsider fighting the system going on here that is independent of the facts of the case.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_10: And we've got to talk about worldviews.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I I'm I'm the establishment now, right?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_10: I I fought long and hard to get here.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_10: Now I'm uh you know a tenured professor, and I'm like, I guess I am big bad now.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_06: But like it's it makes sense that you're a shill for big archaeology, you're part of the deep archaeological state.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_10: You know, I think there there is such a desire for there to be mystery in this world, and the the lost is a great place that you can see that mystery and you can find that mystery, and the new age people find it there, the conspiracy theorist people find it there, and it's at least in part what drew me to archaeology to begin with.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, I still love digging up objects, and you know, I doing some historic archaeology this summer here in Virginia, and just you know, finding things that people haven't touched even for a hundred years is amazing to me still.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's rad.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, people always ask me, you know, what's the coolest thing that you've ever excavated?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_06: And my answer, depending on who they are, the way they respond to my answer um is very telling because we excavated a pit house in the Gila, and we found the the hearth, right?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm I'm pulling back, I'm excavating, and I find these burnt corn cobs.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_06: And like I it gave me chills, right?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_06: Like it was like the coolest thing that I've ever found were these corncobs, these burnt little fragmented corncobs carbonized, right?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_06: And I just sat there staring at them for a while.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_06: And some people get it and some people don't.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_06: Some people you know what?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_06: Um, I left that job.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_06: We we sent it out to be uh carbon dated, um, but I left that job before we got the results back.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_06: So but is it at least a thousand years old?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_06: Uh I mean maybe like seven yeah, yeah.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, between five between five hundred and a thousand.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_06: I mean if they they were still living in in pit houses at that time, it would be it would be pretty old.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_06: But yeah, I've I I keep meaning to call that because it was a CRM company, so I keep meaning to call the the supervisor and find out if we ever got the dates back on that because it was really cool and it would be interesting to know, like get an exact date on it.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_06: But yeah, people they expect to hear something you know like more grandiose than that.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_06: Like those pyramids in the Grand Canyon that you keep uh hiding from the public.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_06: I can't let you see them, bro.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_06: Nobody's allowed.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_06: The giants won't let me.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_06: There's two giants standing standing guard, and they know if somebody shows up there, they're gonna be like, fuck it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_06: What is it?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_06: Like that scene in um the Lord of the Rings, the two giant sculptures.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's basically uh yeah, that's basically the Grand Canyon.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_06: That's the Grand Canyon.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_06: Or when I was working in Chaco, I got a lot of questions about the giants too.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, like they're like, so what about the giants?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_06: I'm like, what?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_06: What are you talking about?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_06: Well, speaking of uh, you know, the the the figures and and weird because you were talking about the the anatomy, the uh anatomical correctness of what dinosaurs would be.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_06: There's one figure completely anatomically incorrect, but I I love it, and it's the one of it's like a human figure like dry humping a stegosaur, it looks like there are some embraces, yeah.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_10: Like there are multiple that show humans like hugging the dinosaurs, or yeah, like it's um we'll be back after a quick break.
• 49:56
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• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: In this forum, I provide opinion, thoughts, truth on a wide range of topics based on my unique life experiences.
• 50:10
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• 50:19
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• 50:21
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• 50:26
  SPEAKER_06: But what I love is the human is larger than the stegosaur.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_06: And and they've got their arms wrapped around it and their head turned to the side.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_06: And it actually reminds me of the scene from uh Jurassic Park where uh the the paleontologist puts his his head to the side of the sick, what is it, a triceratops, I think, and fills it as it breathes.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_06: That's uh I wonder if Steven uh Spielberg saw this figure and was like, that's going in the movie.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I could refer to those as um as showing loving relationships uh between people.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_06: Well, obviously.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_06: I wonder if these loving relationships resulted in um the reptilian race that secretly rules humanity.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_06: You already hear folks.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_06: It's all connected.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_06: I wonder if if somebody's claimed that.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_06: I'm sure somebody has.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_10: I feel like I have to circle around here um because we we've been talking about this for a good while here, right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_10: And like this is a funny, weird story.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, these you know, random dinosaur figurines.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_10: And the first time I ever actually saw one of these in person before I went and got to see the collection of the pen, I mentioned was at a BB in Virginia.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_10: Wild.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_10: And like this was the best moment of like the weirdness of my life, I feel like, because you know, we went, my wife and I went to this BB for our anniversary, and we just you know had a nice weekend and we're checking out, and just as we're checking out of the B, uh somehow or another it came up that I did archaeological work in Mexico, and the owner of the BNB is like, oh my gosh, I've got to show you this figurine.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_10: I have a Mexican figurine, and you know, Curly's been here, right?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_10: People want to show archaeologists all the weird objects that they have.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_10: And that they more often than not, my thought is like, you probably shouldn't have that, yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_10: But I don't necessarily want to say that out loud either.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_10: And and so this is always a weird conversation to begin with, where it's like, okay, show me your figurine, and we'll and she brings out this quadrupedal animal with this ridge along its back going down the tail, and it's got this big chunky uh head with these weird eyes.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_10: And the accombo figurines have these really weird eyes.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_10: And this this moment I saw the eyes, like, I think that's an accombo figurine, and I picked it up and hold it.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_10: I'm like, it's very poorly made, it is solid, it is not hollow, it's very low-fired.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_10: This is and I'm I'm just like looking at it.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_10: I'm like, I I know this is an accombo figure.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_10: And at the time, I was like 95% certain.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_10: Now that I've like seen other ones in person, I'm 100% certain this is an accommodine.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_10: But I'm like, how the hell does this woman have an accommodate figurine?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_10: And I so I'm like, so I asked her, I'm like, well, where did you get this?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_10: And she's like, well, my husband bought it for me at an estate sale in Philadelphia.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_10: It's like, like, can I swear on this podcast?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I'm just like, oh my, like, that's like the one town in the US that where we know there were collections of these things and where somebody had some in their private home was Philadelphia.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_10: And so, but so now I'm getting super excited, and and I'm like, it's an and she I'm looking at her, I'm like, it's an ombro figurine.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_10: And she's like, okay.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_10: And so then I had to explain to her fake 1940s dinosaur figurine from West Mexico.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_10: And she was just like, I I would love to hear her version of this story because I was super excited, and like, I'm like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_10: And she's like, You're telling me I have a fake dinosaur figurine.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_10: I'm like, Yes! Did you take a photo of it?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_10: Were you able to?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I've got photos of it.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_10: Um, I I really wanted to like ask her if I could have it, but you know, it's that moment where it's like I clearly wanted it, and she would have like charged me through the roof.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_06: Wow, that's very cool.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_06: So I found the cover of the Fate magazine.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and interestingly enough, it's off your Twitter, uh, Dr.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_10: I've done a track or two on this before.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_06: It's great.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_06: It's two people riding a triceratops, one of them wielding what it looks like a club, it might be a makwawi, like I can't tell from the angle.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_06: And uh they're fighting, they're attacking somebody on foot uh who's holding a spear, and uh the cover says, Did man tame the dinosaur?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_06: And it's from the February, March 1952 issue of Fate magazine.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_06: So now I have a mission.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_06: I want to get myself a copy of this.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_10: It uh my favorite long kept secret of the internet is archive.org.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_10: There's a PDF of that copy up on archive.org.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_10: Oh, there is nice.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_06: Well, we'll link to it in the show notes because this is very exciting.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so you know, what is the um the current status of the way people like do people still are there are still individuals out there actively promoting that these are legitimate?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_06: Because most people haven't heard of the Acambro figurines.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_06: So it doesn't quite have the uh, you know, like a lot of people have heard of the Icostones um and other, you know, archaeological hoaxes, Cuatemox Bones, stuff like that.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_06: This seems to have sort of um gone to the wayside.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_06: And I wonder if it's because in Mexico particularly, if it's because it doesn't feed into any overtly nationalist narratives that promotes the idea of the Mexican state, or does it, right?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_06: Or does this show that like Mexico's so freaking rad we had dinosaurs here and Mexicans wrote dinosaurs?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_06: Uh because that should be a t-shirt, by the way.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_06: Mexico.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_05: Well, if I may, before you respond, Dr.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_05: Anderson, uh, I want to piggyback off of what Curly just said because I want to ask you a question that's related to this.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, this idea, um, going back to that paper that that that I uh cited earlier, it was in a volume called Past This Present.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I believe in in the introduction to that, uh, I'm not sure if it was you or your co-editor, but you mentioned that uh this is a direct quote.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_05: Arguably the first Mesoamerican archaeologists were ancient Mesoamericans themselves, especially the Aztec, from whom we have the most evidence, who excavated ruins of earlier societies and carefully curated antique material culture, which is what Mexico has tried to do for a very long time.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_05: And it's you know what Curly just asked you.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_05: So if you could maybe, I don't know if uh if there's a way to respond to both of those things in tandem, because I think that they're related, right?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, no, and this is an inherent, you know, inherently Mexican story that got picked up in the US.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_10: And you know, and and obviously, you know, uh having visited the University of Pennsylvania, I have uh followed up on that end of it more closely.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_10: Uh but there's a long history of people studying the past within Mexico.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_10: Um my favorite uh piece that uh actually I don't think we talked about in that article, but there's a uh jade, an Olmec jade that's from the Gulf Coast of Mexico, uh very clear Olmec style from the pre-classic period, so you know, roughly seven, eight, nine hundred BC, uh, that was found in the Cenote at Chichanitza, uh, and it has Maya hieroglyphs uh carved into it from the late classic period.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_10: So a solid 2,000 years later, more or less, uh, there's a long-standing interest in the past in Mexico.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_10: And there absolutely were examples of uh Aztec people making replica Teotihua Khan vessels, uh sort of you know, replicating those older styles and you know, curating them in that sense.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_10: And so, in a way, the the accombo figurines fit into a long tradition here of working with clay and interacting with the past in some way, shape, or form.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_10: What these makers thought about what they were doing, like it's like I don't want to call them hoaxers.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_10: You know, there's there there are real hoaxes out there where people deliberately try to fool somebody.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, there's a lot of parallels, I think, with the accombo figurines, with there's a uh a couple of uh statues that have been found in northern Mexico recently.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_10: Same kind of story where it's like one family has found them in one cave and one cave alone, uh, and they all show aliens.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and they are they are like they're you know, this the just picture a gray alien and slap an Aztec sunstone onto it.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_06: That's what they've done.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_06: I've seen those.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_10: One of those now.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_10: They are ridiculously bad and obviously from one place and one place only, like we were talking about before.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_10: Like the Acombro figurines are only coming from one place.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_10: These seem these modern alien ones seem a lot more like a deliberate hoax.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_10: Like they're trying to fool people and try and you can buy them on eBay for a couple thousand dollars.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_10: Like they're someone's trying to make a lot of money off these.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_10: The accombo figurines, I think, are a lot simpler in that I don't like thinking about them as a hoax because they feel a lot more to me like hey, that that business guy in town uh said he would give me a peso for every piece of clay that I brought him.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_10: He didn't ask for them to be dinosaurs, he didn't ask for them to be anything.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_10: He just said, bring me figurines, and so he started bringing them figurines.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_10: I don't even know if the makers of these figurines thought they were making old stuff.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_10: Like it's and that's where like the scene when de peso goes down there is very awkward, and I find I wonder sort of what was going on in the minds of everybody involved because I think it's it reeks to me of people who got in over their neck, right?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_10: Where they're like, oh wait, now the you know, this weird American archaeologist thinks that we're really digging these things up.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_10: We've gotta do something about it now.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and you know, it just kind of reeks of not deliberate planning, but of last-minute like shenanigans.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, well, I'm gonna put forward uh my own hypothesis here.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_06: Um so a lot of the Acambra figurines, the the dinosaur ones, um bear striking resemblance in my mind to alevrijas.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_06: Like a lot of them really look like that style, the super long necks and the weird figures, and you know, the way that alebrijes are made.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_06: Alevrijas were created in like the late 30s, right?
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's it's a brand new phenomenon.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_06: It's not so ancient or old.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_06: I wonder, I wonder if these farmers had seen alevrijes and were just trying to make like we're gonna make this guy clay alevrijas, and then people look at them and they're like Atlantis.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_06: But they would have painted them if that was the case, don't you think?
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_06: Because alevrijas are usually painted.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_06: They they could have, but if they were mass producing them, if you were just churning them out, you wouldn't have and and and they were poorly fired, like if you would have fired them correctly, um, they would have been slipped.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_06: Are any of the the Acambra figures slipped?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_10: None that I have seen, and they certainly don't look like it in the photos.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_06: So, I mean, you know, I'm just spitballing here, but to me they they kind of look like Alevrijas.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_06: That'd be funny if there was a connection where these these folks were just like, have you seen this?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_06: Hey, let's make something that looks like this, and then from that people like, oh, that's the funny thing.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_10: I feel like I am almost, you know, I'm it's not just me because these get talked about as the dinosaur figurines as all the time, but it's it's almost a misrepresentation.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_10: Like a whole bunch of these things are wildly fantastical.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_10: You know, a bunch of them are you know, clear, you know, have two legs or these crazy long necks or you know, huge mouths, like a whole bunch of them are not even remotely anatomically correct to anything at all.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_10: They're just straight up fantasy and fun.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_10: And you know, it's the sort of thing like uh if you saw a local artisan just making weird fun figurines that you would pick up and buy, yeah.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_10: So it's I think the um to Curly was asking about like who you know is interested in these nowadays.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_10: And these definitely are like I'm interested in these in particular.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_10: I use these as a centerpiece in some of my teaching and uh the book that I want to work on that I am working on, uh, because to me they're a poster child for how pseudo-archaeology happens, you know, because it looks like archaeology they were excavated.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_10: Uh you know, to Hapgood goes down there and does more excavations.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, he hapcood radiocarbon dates them, which is really funny because you can't radiocarbon carbonate pottery, uh, but he radiocarbonates them somehow.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_10: Uh they, you know, he hapgood creates the figurine typology at one point.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_10: They go on display at the museum that we talked about.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_10: Like if you don't know much about archaeology or ancient Mexico, it's not too hard for these things, you know.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_10: If we leave out the dinosaurs for a second, it's not too hard for these things to look legitimate.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_10: They, you know, because they've got all of these sort of steps around it.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_10: So much of pseudo-archaeology is about a performance.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_10: It's about, you know, it's you know, looking like you know what you're doing without necessarily having any clue what you're doing at all.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_10: And so to me, these become a real poster child for what pseudo-arch, how pseudo-archaeology operates and comes about and formulates.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but they are still, they they pop up like with a low frequency, but they pop up with the young earth creationists.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, they pop up every once in a while.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_10: There's people, even sort of outside of young earth creationists, there's sort of a dinosaur truther crowd out there that want dinosaurs to live more recently.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_10: And so they show up.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_10: I've seen a few web articles about them there that way.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_10: And my favorite, I was just double-checking the publication date.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_10: I have a reprint of some of uh uh Hapgood's stuff that um this is you know his stuff from the 60s and 70s, uh, some of which was in Fate magazine as well.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and it came out.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_10: This reprint was done in 2000.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, but what I love about this reprint is that it's got like more than half of this is not Hapgood's writings, but about half of this is are articles by David Atcher Childress, uh, who is one of the main talking heads on Ancient Aliens?
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_10: Oh man.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_10: And this so he at least you know put this out in 2000 where he did this heavily revised, not revised vision that version, because he doesn't revise Hapgood's material, but you know, it's uh you know it's about as he uses Hapgood's materials as a platform for his own articles.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_10: And Childress wrote his own chapters in here of did dinosaurs survive until recently?
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_10: And the reality of dragons by David Hatcher Childress.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_10: Like he's you know, this is the same kind of stuff where people, you know, Childress and others keep pushing where the more fantastical, the more weird, the more wild it is.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_10: It must be true because the academics aren't talking about it.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_05: Speaking of fantastical images, Curly just shared one with us, and I'm I'm curious as to what we're looking at here.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_05: Can someone describe this for us?
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_05: What's going on in this picture?
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_06: Uh I'll let uh Dr.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson being the foremost expert.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_06: Dr.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson, what we're doing.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_10: We we definitely have a you know something, a creature with fins of sort, uh, and um uh a couple of fangs.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_10: It looks a lot like you know, maybe a Loch Ness monstery sort of thing.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_10: Except it has one tail instead of uh two back feet.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_10: Or a long tail.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_10: It's um and then there are two people that are riding it.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_10: Uh and the one in the front looks has got a nice big smile on his face.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_10: So, you know, clearly it's enjoyable to ride the fang snargle pus there.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_06: And and the individuals riding it, by the way, um, it's very reminiscent of that scene in Titanic where they're standing at the bow of the Titanic and one's you know got their arms around the other one, and they're like, I I feel like I'm not even this.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, the king of the world, that's what it is.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_10: We're recording a podcast, so no one else can see this, but there's nothing that screams dinosaur about this creature.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_10: Like it's a weird, crazy creature.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, and that's why I I I threw it up here because it's it's like you're saying that a lot of these figures don't look anything like dinosaurs.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, some of them are obvious, you know, based on on dinosaurs.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_06: There are some that are very obvious.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know what it reminded me of that image?
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_05: It reminded me of that episode in in uh SpongeBob where or was it the movie where it's King Neptune riding uh some kind of sea creature?
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, yes, that's what it kind of reminds me of.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_06: And I'll post the image uh on our Twitter or uh on the show notes because people should see this stuff.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_06: So you know what are the main takeaways I would you would you would give about pseudo-archaeology here?
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_06: Because you know, for me, it's like you said, a lot of these people we have a tendency to just be dismissive, like, ah, these dummies, like they they'll believe whatever garbage they see.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_06: But it's people who are just like honestly and earnestly, you know, like, holy shit, what is this?
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_06: Like I get stuff like this, like this image, or the ones you were talking about with the as the gray alien with the Aztec calendar and stuff.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_06: People will send those images to me and and they're asking, they're asking honestly, like, what is this?
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_06: Like, is is this real?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, when I was young, when I was like, you know, an asshole, I'm still an asshole.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_06: But when I was a young asshole, I would have been like, of course they're not real dummy, you know, like just very dismissive, but like you can't do that because all that does is drive people away.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_06: Um but at the same time, there are those people who are like, no, this is real, you're a liar.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_06: Um no matter what you say, no matter how much evidence you present to me, I will never change my mind.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_06: So it's like walking this line between the people who are honestly curious about the past and just want information, and those that are deliberately wielding the past like a bludgeon to beat on, you know, the mainstream and you know, accuse everybody of this grand conspiracy of covering up what really happened.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_05: It's become a religion.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, a lot of these people look at it in very religious terms, you know, damn the facts, you know, I'm gonna believe whatever I want to believe because it it makes me feel good.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_05: Back to that idea, right?
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_05: This is what uh that makes me feel it gives me some sort of power, even though I have no proof, but it gives me some sort of power to to hold these beliefs because I'm challenging the status quo, I'm challenging the establishment, whatever you know, form that is, whether it's the so-called deep state or deep archaeology, as we have determined on this podcast, exists, uh, Dr.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_05: Anderson.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_06: I remember apparently deep archaeology, by the way.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_10: So that's a deep I I think especially when we're talking about sort of controversial subjects, subjects yet to be confirmed.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_10: Like people bug me about aliens all the time.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_10: You know, I rag on ancient aliens, ancient aliens is bunk, they're there's it's a problematically horrible show.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_10: And I say that, and people tell me, like, well, how dare you say aliens aren't real?
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_10: Like, that's that's not what I said.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_10: I said the ancient aliens show is bunk.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_10: I would love it if aliens existed somewhere in this world.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_10: And I think when you're looking for confirmation of that new idea, do aliens exist?
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_10: Could dinosaurs have survived more recently?
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_10: You have to beware the the evidence that is too perfect, that looks too good, that it's like, that's exactly what I was hoping to see.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, or you know, exactly what I was expecting to see, because that's when someone's feeding off of our preconceptions.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I I cannot wait for the day that we encounter extraterrestrial life because it's gonna be an amazing day, and all of our sci-fi is gonna have to change.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_10: Because all of our preconceptions are going to be wrong, because whatever alien life looks like, it's going to be radically different from all these fun stories that we've been telling ourselves for the last hundred years.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_10: And it's, you know, it's kind of the same thing with the dinosaurs, right?
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_10: Like now that we've learned more about dinosaurs, we know even more so that these accommodal figurines don't actually look like what we know dinosaurs to look like.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_10: They were feeding off of people's preconceptions and what people expected to see.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_10: If you find yourself on the internet and all of a sudden stumble across something, you're like, that's what exactly what I was hoping to see.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_10: That's the moment that the alarm bell should go off in your head and say, like, wait a second, what is this?
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_10: Who made it?
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_10: Where did it come from?
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_10: And you know, as we're gonna increasingly have to discuss, is it AI?
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_10: Because that's coming along hard and fast.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_06: Well, the uh, you know, I don't know if you've seen the great uh documentary film from 1985, Baby, Secret of the Lost Legend about the uh the dinosaur, the baby dinosaur uh in Africa.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_06: You haven't seen it?
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_06: It's so good.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_06: It was, I mean, it's like claymation and it's based on an actual like folk story.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_06: Uh I I forget what the dinosaur is called, but let me let me read you the uh the description here.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_06: It's uh a paleontologist and her husband discover a mother and baby Brontosaurus in Africa and try to protect them from a group of hunters intent on capturing the dinosaurs.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, this this kind of stuff it's it's not gonna go away.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, movies like this really um the fact that it was based on this folk tale, right?
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_06: I remember the first time I saw this movie, I was a kid, and I did like this deep dive into the research of what this actual thing was supposed to be and the people who went out, and it really piqued my interest.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_06: So it's fun, right?
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_06: Stories like this are fun, but they're not always innocuous.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_06: You know, there's like everything uh I think Dr.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_06: uh Hoops is always, or I might even be you, Dr.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson, who's always saying, like, if you scratch pseudo-archaeology, like racism is usually right there underneath the surface, you know.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_06: And it it leads to, in my opinion, uh it makes you more susceptible to even more outrageous ideas.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_06: And then even more outrageous ideas in this quest for hidden knowledge and hidden history, and then then you know, before you know it, you know, you're you're totally wrapped up in in this pseudo-history, pseudo-archaeology, and you know, you're storming the Capitol on January 6th.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_10: There are very real overlaps in all of this stuff.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_10: And that's that's the scary part, you know.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_10: And and so we there is no archaeologist on this earth who does not want to tell you about what they found.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_10: If someone's telling you that archaeologists are hiding information from you, that right it's is the giant red flag, right?
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_10: Like we want we this is why we got this is our job to find things and tell you about them.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_10: And so it's and when you start believing one lie, it you start believing others, and it's a real problem.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_10: Snowballs.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you know, going back to you to your comment about hopefully one day humans finally meet aliens, um, I think uh I'm I'm more in line with what Stephen Hawkin said on the matter when he said, How should we be uh I mean we should be wary of answering back to aliens if we ever hear from them because you know, like Native Americans meeting Columbus, that didn't turn out so well.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_05: So as an indigenous person or descendant of indigenous peoples, uh um I'm kind of wary of of ever meeting aliens because it might not turn out so well for humans.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, we probably don't carry the uh the proper immune system anyway.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_05: Which is something that that people that believe in this stuff don't even consider when they talk about the veracity and the quote unquote fact of aliens existing and visiting Earth.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like, have you even considered the ramifications of what it would be for uh an alien being coming from a different, not just a different part of the world, we're talking about different world itself to our world, what kind of contaminants they could bring that would be devastating not just to humans but to the ecology, to the environment, etc.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_05: etc.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_05: And and it's it's like sometimes I wonder if people even think through some of the ideas that they really believe.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_05: And it goes back to what we've said before, you know, not just on the show, but on the podcast.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's it's comforting.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_05: And in this case, it's not even comfort colonialism, it's just comforting in general.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_05: This idea that that you know, because I believe it, it's and it's very religiously minded, you know, it makes me feel good inside.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_05: And so, and and and you know, touching on what you just said about about people believing weird things and and things without fact, and once you believe once you accept one one idea uh that is baseless, that is without merit, that is is not founded on on any kind of fact, then it's easier for you to accept those things moving forward.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_05: And and one of the things that Richard Dawkins, I know that he's been a controversial figure over the years, but one of the things almost 10 years ago now that really stuck with me when that whole bright movement was uh uh taking off back then, um one of the things that he said, and he got a lot of pushback for it, was that that there was a big overlap between people who are uberly religious and people who believe a lot of this nonsense.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_05: And and and people, you know, went after him because, oh, how dare you?
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_05: You're you know, you're because you're an atheist, you're targeting people who are religious, and they miss the whole point.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_05: And now, 10 years down the road, we're we're realizing that yes, in fact, a lot of those people that believe a lot of this hokey stuff tend to be people who used to be or are still very, very religious.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's it's all based on on feeling good and and and like you were saying, no matter what kind of facts we bring to to the matter, it's it's it's not gonna be enough.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_05: And and as Curly said, we we can't just beat people over the head with this stuff and and and be assholes.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_05: We have to find a way to communicate with with with people, and and that's part of what we do in this podcast.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we joke around and sometimes we might say a few snarky comments, but the purpose and the reason why we have you on the show today is so that you can bring uh a perspective that maybe someone that's listening will and that's believing in this sort of stuff will well, some of that might sink in and you plant that seed uh to make people a little bit more skeptical and and and a little bit more cognizant of their own biases and their own uh confirmation bias, right?
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_05: So thank you.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for being on the show.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_06: And you have a class, is it the weirding archaeology?
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_06: Is that the name of the class?
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I have a class called Weirding Archaeology uh that uh I teach every other year, and I just finished teaching it last semester and it was great.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_10: And uh I have another class uh called Bigfoot Stole My UFO.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_10: And that the you know, that class, in essence, the very short story in that class is it's spawned of just the sort of things that we've been talking about, that there is so much overlap between these different odd beliefs or unusual things.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_10: Uh, and so you know, I as an archaeologist ended up, you know, end up talking about psychics and UFOs and Bigfoot because they interact and they overlap, and belief in one ends up leading to belief in the other sometimes.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_10: And so we have to be able to look at these things as a whole spectrum.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's definitely a snowball effect too, because they try to what I've noticed is these individuals when I'm observing their conversations, they try to out out conspiracy each other.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_06: Like, you know, it's it's almost like a contest.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_06: It's so they're like, you know, well, you know, you know we never landed on the moon, right?
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_06: And then the next guy's like, oh, we landed on the moon.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_06: In fact, that's where the Nazis are right now.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_06: And then the third guy's like, you guys believe in the moon?
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_06: What a bunch of dopes.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_06: And just watching this play out, it's like, oh man.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_06: Maybe I should be able to do it.
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_06: You believe you're alive?
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_05: You believe that's air you're breathing.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_06: Dr.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_06: Well, Dr.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_06: Anderson, thank you so much for being on the show.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_06: Um, it was an illuminating conversation.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_06: I hope you uh have a great day.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_06: Uh you know, pushing your your mainstream big archaeology.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_06: Big archaeology.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, my regards to everybody in the deep archaeology state.
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_10: I will go back to writing my reports about the like five iron nails that we found in one test bit this summer.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_06: It's like you guys are hiding, you guys are hiding giants.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm like, okay, well, here's LA15763 and the small lithic scatter that I found.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_06: But yes, like like if you could get me to shut up about uh about giants if I ever found giants, it would it would be all over the place.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_06: So uh thank you very much for joining us.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_06: Uh we hope you'll join us again.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_06: Are you on uh Twitter?
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_06: Can how can people follow you?
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_10: Uh best way to find me nowadays uh is long until Elon crashes the the site uh is Twitter, uh or DSA Archaeology.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_10: I've got a I've got a DSA Archaeology on Instagram and uh Mastodon as well, but uh Twitter is the the place where I am most often.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_10: Remember, the truth is like medicine, it doesn't always taste good, but it's always good for you.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, there's there's more and more of these crazy things that get dismissed by scientists.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, obviously so many of the scientists are on the payroll um with the powers that be in order to keep us kind of in the dark.
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because I mean, as as we were just talking about yesterday in one of the videos, looks like we need a whole new uh set of um physics, you know, to explain how the universe works because everything we've been told is basically inaccurate.
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you gotta wonder you what's uh our real history, our real truth, timelines, years, everything.
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's just uh it's just such a cover-up.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I personally think there's a massive, massive cover-up going on.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you gotta ask yourself why?
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what would change if we knew the truth?
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_02: What would change?
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think would change, Cindy?
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, a lot of people would lose their jobs, there would be serious chaos, they would have to rewrite all of the textbooks, you know, in in science class.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, heads would roll.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess they would.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: There would be a lot of people that would be irritated to say the least.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna look at this.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is another case that they're writing off.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Scientists, mainstream scientists are saying it's just a hoax.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a hoax.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And here you see the Acambaro figures, a collection of thousands of figurines, actually, like over thirty thousand.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_02: That uh, yeah, sure.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_02: These these are all just an elaborate hoax.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Who's gonna create thirty thousand figurines to make a hoax?
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_02: To go, haha, April Fools, you know.
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I don't think so.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_06: If you enjoy the show, please consider becoming a Patreon supporter.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_06: You can do this by visiting TalesFromostlantis.com and clicking support the podcast.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_06: Your continued support will help keep the podcast ad free and independent.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_06: Until next time, Timo Itase.