Latest / The Accounting Podcast / Broadening Pathways to CPA with MNCPA President Linda Wedul

Transcript

Broadening Pathways to CPA with MNCPA President Linda Wedul · The Accounting Podcast

• Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding! Blake Oliver: [00:00:05] Hey, everyone, and welcome to The Cloud Accounting Podcast. I'm Blake Oliver. David Leary: [00:00:08] And I'm David Leary. Blake Oliver: [00:00:09] And we are here with a special interview for you. Welcoming Linda Wedul of the Minnesota Society of CPAs to the show. Welcome, Linda. Linda Wedul: [00:00:18] Thank you. It's a great pleasure to be here. Blake Oliver: [00:00:20] So, Linda, the CPA, Minnesota Society of CPAs, has created quite a stir in the accounting community with support of legislation in the Minnesota legislature right now that would change the 150 hour requirement by adding an alternative pathway for CPA licensure. Instead of getting a 150 hours, 150 hour, 150 semester hours of education, a future CPA could get 120, which could be done in four years, and then get two years of work experience. There's also another pathway that would allow for the four years of education plus a bunch of CPE instead of this fifth year of education or 30 semester hours. So, Linda, why make this change? Why did Minnesota take the leap on this? We know there's been a lot of you know, every now and then people come back and talk about this 150 hour rule. It's been around for a while. Like, what's the what's the impetus for this? Linda Wedul: [00:01:22] So what happened is that about two years ago, our board board of directors for the Minnesota Society of CPAs started talking about this issue because we started hearing it more intensely from our members and more frequently about their concerns about it and how it's impacting their ability to recruit and having enough qualified staff to provide the services that they needed to. And then what really pushed it over the top is when we started to hear from clients, particularly in greater Minnesota, smaller towns and communities, school districts, cities, counties, and they were unable to find CPAs to do the required work. The required audits that needed to be done in order to get funding. So when you start having that increase of that concern, it really raised it with our board of directors. And like you said, it's been talked about for a long time, but now our environment had changed and so it was time to really take a look at what we should do. So for two years, the board talked about it and they voted last November to go ahead and introduce legislation so that the conversation could move out behind boardroom doors and out into the greater community of the profession to talk about what are the right requirements at this time. Now for the CPA profession. Blake Oliver: [00:02:43] So you're hearing from CPA firm owners, partners in the front lines that they cannot recruit enough CPAs. Linda Wedul: [00:02:52] Correct? Correct. And it's not just CPAs. It's getting candidates coming into the door that are graduates with accounting degrees and then having a willingness to take that CPA exam. There is a lot of pressure on the profession, which you've talked about in your podcast, and we see it in the news as well. It started before the pandemic. It got amplified during the pandemic. And when systems start to have that kind of pressure, they look for ways to equalize. And we polled our members and asked them if they were starting to hire at 120 or were they requiring 150 in order to be hired. And more and more firms, 50% of the respondents said they were hiring at 120, and some of them were also recruiting from two year community schools because they needed to get staff in the door in order to get the work done. But then we asked them, what is the likelihood that somebody at 120 credits is going to sit for the CPA exam? And again, a large percentage, 50 to 60%, said it is highly unlikely that they are going to sit for the exam because they have this additional requirement to take those additional 30 credits. But yet they have all this work experience that they are gaining. And can that not then be considered equivalent to having those additional college credits? Blake Oliver: [00:04:14] Yeah. So what we're talking about when you look at the one of the pathways is just replacing that extra year of education with a year of work experience. Correct. And I think I mean, I think most firm owners would agree most CPAs would agree that especially early in your career, an extra year of experience trumps a year of education. Linda Wedul: [00:04:36] Yes. And that was the feedback that we got. In fact, when we gathered and decided what we're going to be, the alternatives, that feedback came from members. So it wasn't staff of the CPA sitting around the table and thinking about what the alternatives could be. It was bringing in members from some of the larger firms and asking them what would be equivalent. And that is a question I would ask for the AICPA and Nasba What is it in our environment that they would need to see change in order to make some more fundamental changes to the requirements? It's not clear to me what they would want to see changing in our environment to drive that. And then is there nothing that cannot be equal to 30 additional college credits? And of course we know that the cost and the time that go along with that can be a deterrent to people entering the profession when they see other careers that they can go into that are paying as much as becoming a CPA. David Leary: [00:05:36] So then just make sure I'm kind of hearing things correctly. David Leary: [00:05:40] You hit the point. The Minnesota society hit a point where first it was firms rumbling about this and then clients started. You start hearing from small business owners and clients that couldn't get accountants by nonprofits, I imagine probably even city and townships themselves, right? That that couldn't get audits done, etcetera. And so if I heard you just correctly now you're wondering that was the breaking point for state of Minnesota. Like, we have to do something. If I'm hearing you correctly, you're wondering what is going to be the breaking point for the CPA to start going down this same journey you guys have started on. Did you any guesses what the breaking point is like? Linda Wedul: [00:06:17] Know if you have some insights, though? I would love to hear that. Blake Oliver: [00:06:23] Well, let's let's talk about the AICPA and Nasba opposition to this legislation. It seems to be mainly focused on this idea that going back to 120 or creating a 120 option would harm CPA mobility across state lines. So how do you address those concerns? Are those valid or are they making this out to be more than it is? Linda Wedul: [00:06:49] It is something that has to be solved and mobility is especially important to the profession. We completely agree with that. What we disagree on is that we agree that we believe that it can be maintained, but it does take the AICPA and Nasba coming to the table. So we have this agreement or this contract that was written up that's called the Uniform Accountancy Act. And it's a model set of rules that the boards of accountancy can use so that we can have substantial equivalency across all the states, not equivalency, but substantial. So a brilliant way to write it so that it can make sure that there's flexibility within the rules because we know no state is going to pass everything to be exactly the same. It's just not the way we work in the US. We all have our own little unique things that we want to have so they can take a look at what are the definitions of substantial equivalency. They can take a look at that 150 requirement and include in those that Uniform Accountancy Act. That's something can be equivalent to that. And we could write into the legislation a period of time that says within five years the individual states would pass it. And during that five year period, all of the states would be considered equivalent. So there are solutions to it where I feel like they continue to put out messaging that it will just bust mobility and there's nothing that can be done to solve that. And there are multiple ways through either legislation or the A or working through individual states to maintain that mobility. Blake Oliver: [00:08:23] Yeah, I wonder how much of it is really about the mobility and how much is about simply not wanting to, quote, lower the bar to become a CPA? And that is what I hear when I talk to. Folks who are opposed to it. The main argument is actually when you boil it down is, well, we don't want to lower the bar to become a CPA. We want to still have high education requirements. It would harm the public perception of CPAs if we did this. So how do you respond to that argument that this would lower the bar? Linda Wedul: [00:08:56] So first, I don't say lowering the bar. I think when you add on additional experience requirements, we are looking at broadening the pathway so that more people will look at the profession, which is incredibly valuable. It's so rich in choices that people can choose from. And we also know that this is not the golden bullet, right? That's going to solve the problem. There are multiple things the profession needs to do in order to draw people into becoming a CPA. But for those that do enter the profession, the number one thing we hear is how flexible it has been for them within their careers, whether they're working in public accounting and like working with multiple clients or going into business and industry and really learning in depth how a specific industry and a specific company works. So we are broadening the pathway to allow more people to come into the profession. It's not lowering the bar when we are considering that you need to have appropriate experience to make up for that additional credits. Blake Oliver: [00:10:05] So there was an article in accounting today by Gary Bollinger. Yeah, the headline was and I think he was the former president of the Illinois CPA Society. Linda Wedul: [00:10:14] Indiana. Blake Oliver: [00:10:15] Oh, Indiana. Got it. Yeah. Apologies to those in Illinois and Indiana for my error. Uh, the 150 hour rule is not the problem. That's the headline of the article there. And he says, I want to read this bit to you so you can respond to it. He says every time the accounting profession feels a squeeze for human resources, the knee jerk reaction is blame the 150 hour educational requirement, while the 150 hour requirement may be a factor. It is only one of many factors that contribute to pipeline concerns. But to conclude that the education requirement is the only reason or even the primary reason is a bit shallow. So. You know what about that? Right. It's it's and I think we agree. Right. That there are many other issues that we need to focus on. So, I mean, do you believe that the 150 hour rule, like offering a 120 hour pathway is is the solution to all our problems? Linda Wedul: [00:11:13] No. And the problem is that we don't have enough CPAs and there are multiple issues that are surrounding that. The 150 being just one element of that when we look at recruiting and diversity equitable and and I'll just shorten it to that, that this is also an area that impacts that. And there was a fabulous interview that the president of Nabba did with Barry Melanson from AICPA, making a case for how this increases a barrier to the profession for certain groups of people who we need to have entering the profession. And if we look back at when the 150 hour was implemented, there were so many people that were in the workforce. This was when all of the baby boomers were now entering the workforce. So we were looking for ways to how do we filter out and reduce the number of people when you're trying to bring them into the profession. So it was a completely different time period when it was implemented. And it's to me it's not a valuable exercise to look back and compare it. What's valuable is looking at where we are now and how do we move forward and make sure that we have the economic stability that our communities need and what CPAs bring to them. The logical thinking, the critical thinking, the advice in order to make really good decisions, because there is no community that thrives if they do not have financial stability. And that's the problem that we have to focus on. The 150 hour is just one part of that solution. Blake Oliver: [00:12:55] So we are streaming live on YouTube and we have a question from a student. Khalid says, Hi, Linda, student here. Do you feel that firms are compensating new hires? Enough students see this as a major issue, considering that there are other careers with less red tape and more money? Thanks. Linda Wedul: [00:13:15] And we have seen increases in starting salaries, especially in the larger metropolitan urban areas. And that's where students need to decide what kind of environment do I want to work in? So if you want to work in the Big four and have that type of work, that experience that you're going to have, which is definitely going to be more intense, you're going to find the higher salaries in those larger firms. If you want to work in a firm that might be more focused on the work life balance and the building of the culture that supports that a smaller firm might be a place for you and there is going to be a differences in salaries for that. I do think the profession has been making improvements in those starting salaries, at least from the firms that I've individually met with and talked about. So it's searching and having the right kinds of questions as a student to ask What kind of environment do you want to work in that's going to make you happy? Blake Oliver: [00:14:10] And I think that's a good question to ask, too, when you're thinking about do I need a master's of accountancy? And I feel like in this whole debate, the 150 and the master's get all mixed up together and not everybody needs the master's of accountancy, right? I didn't need it for the kind of work that I wanted to do, and I was just fine passing the CPA exam. And that's how I ended up just getting a bunch of random credits from community colleges to save money. Linda Wedul: [00:14:42] Thank you for bringing that up because that is one of my pet peeves when people start talking about 150 hours and that you have to take a master's, you do not have to have a master's in order to meet that requirement. And there are so many choices and I am all for learning. So I love myself learning, whether it's doing it independently or sitting in a classroom and learning for others and the profession You do not want to enter accounting if you are not a continuous learner because it is always changing and evolving. And that is part of what makes it a very exciting profession to be in. But yes, students should not feel that they have to follow that route. And I would also say that what I hear from a lot of employers and even from students, that when you work for a couple of years and then go back and get your master's, it is that much more valuable to you because you're asking better questions and you're a better critical thinker. David Leary: [00:15:45] So I want to kind of rewind a second to the the letter, right? Like you guys introduced, you introduced the legislation and the. Kind of sent out that fear based letter a little bit. And then you had a response. And one of the sentences that really stuck with me in that was that you said, we've been trying for years to have discussions about this, and we had no choice but to introduce legislation to get the discussion to happen. Now, obviously, this is Minnesota's point of view, right? And it's your point of view. Do you see other states that are like right behind you on this? Are you getting emails and messages like, way to go, we support you from other states societies or are you off on an island? Like, what's the overall vibe to your argument on this is that you had to bring it to to get the conversation to happen. You had to take it to to being a legal matter, sir. Linda Wedul: [00:16:39] And what I have a lot of support from state society, so all of the presidents of the different state societies, we meet on a regular basis. We have conversations and talk about what's happening in the profession and we collaborate with the AICPA as well. There's some things that we agree on and work well together and others that we disagree on. Every state is going to be in a little bit of a different place, some of them. And it also depends on your board of accountancy, right, because you're working with your board of accountancy. That's actually the regulator and deciding what the rules are. So for some states, they are in the same conversations with their board. We just happen to be a little bit further ahead in our conversations because we had started two years ago. Some of them just started six months ago. And when we're association executives, our job is to represent the members that we work with. It's not our own personal feelings that are in this. It's what do our members feel and what do they think is good for the profession? All of my emails so far, with the exception of a caution on mobility, are extremely supportive of broadening the pathway. And again, a thank you for making sure to say that we are not eliminating the 150 hour rule that can still be there. So for those firms where they believe 150 is very important, that can still be a pathway for the students that are coming out where this will end. That's hard to say because this is not something that happens in six months. This is something that will take a couple of years and discussions among multiple stakeholders. Blake Oliver: [00:18:17] So it sounds like you're moving forward. You have not been dissuaded by those warnings about mobility, pushing the legislation through, like what's next. Linda Wedul: [00:18:27] So that is dependent on the board of directors and their discussions and our discussions with our members. Right now, our members have not backed down from wanting to continue to pursue having alternative pathways. And that's even with getting those letters that, you know, have that fear element of it, because we know that we can have discussions and that there are ways to move forward. And we do need our members to be very vocal. And it's not just members of Minnesota, it's CPAs in all states that are communicating with the AICPA and Nasba and letting them know that it is time for change. There's many times in our nation's history, right, where we have the pendulum swings. You know, maybe we went a little too far and we're just trying to pull it back a little bit. I do not see this as a drastic change to the requirements to become a CPA. Blake Oliver: [00:19:24] Yeah, I like to think of it. Or at least my thinking on this has shifted recently to it's not lowering the bar, it's changing it. It is making it more flexible and swapping a year of education with a year of experience. In most cases, that's what people will do. They'll do the bachelor's degree in accounting and get two years of work experience. And I like that because it really helps the firms because now all those students who didn't really want to get the master's but felt like they had to are now going to go work for these firms. So it creates a direct, you know, almost immediate benefit in the following years. Linda Wedul: [00:20:08] Right. And there's this I believe there's a pool of 120 graduates that are working in firms that could have this initial surge. Maybe that's too strong of a word, but that would be coming into the profession, at least taking the CPA exam. Right. That are working at accounting firms. And I'd be curious to see if you have heard that, that there are a lot of new hires or hires at the 120 credits. And what you're hearing just from the audience is that tune in here. Blake Oliver: [00:20:37] Well, I'll tell you this, just based on my personal experience, I'm passionate about this as a career changer. I was a music major who got a bachelor's degree at Northwestern University, which is a great school, but it was in music, not in accounting. And so for me to go back and become a CPA was pretty. Because I had to get more credits and then I had to go through the whole accounting education. I basically had to take the major. Essentially. I was able to do that with credits at community colleges and at UCLA extension, so I didn't necessarily have to go back and spend a whole year on a master's. I was able to work at the same time. So it was doable. But here's what I saw is in my opening class, right, the people who started with me on this journey to get the accounting certificate at UCLA, the drop off was precipitous. We started with, you know, 100 people, and by the end there might have been 10 or 20. Right. And that's, I think I suspect a lot because, you know, not only do they have to work because most of these folks don't have the resources, you know, to pay to not work, They they also the requirements are pretty significant already. Right. And then many didn't have the fifth year to get 30 semester hours is no joke. No. And I feel like those are smart people. They were talented people, but they were dissuaded from becoming CPAs by the red tape. And it wasn't about raising the bar or lowering the bar for them. Right. It was about making it more flexible because they weren't traditional candidates. And accounting is a wonderful profession. I am so grateful that I became a CPA and I just wish more people could come into the profession in other ways. David Leary: [00:22:29] Yeah, because for me, bleak. It's not a capabilities thing. It's just a life gets in the way. They get to check all these boxes and it's hard to check them all because you have things happening. Blake Oliver: [00:22:40] God forbid you have a child, you have a full time job. It's not easy. We we had another question, Linda, from our listeners. So one of the other, you know, commonly discussed reasons for the accounting shortage. The talent shortage is that the public accounting business model is requires a lot of hours, especially at large firms, and not just in busy season every not just in busy season. These days it's like year round in a lot of cases. Or it might be like a full time job most most of the year and then half of the year it's like 50, 60, 70 hours. So, you know, do you have any ideas, suggestions for how the profession can fix that issue or or deal with that overload issue? Linda Wedul: [00:23:27] Yeah, the leadership in firms are the ones that have the most influence in that area. So part of what we have seen in the last couple of years and this is not necessarily good for the profession, is they have started to let go of clients, right? So that they could reduce the workload and being able to manage it. But then that puts us in the position we're currently in where we do not have enough CPAs in order to fulfill the needs of the clients and the communities that they are serving. So that's definitely part of it, is what is going to be the appropriate level of staffing so that we can commit so that we do not have those type of hours. Now, it's never going to be something where it's going to be 35 hours a week. That's just not the kind of profession it is. And it's always going to be deadline deadline driven. It seems very unlikely that we will see deadlines change from the federal government and that we would see the tax that change. So we really have to do that from within the profession. And you're right, it's a challenge, but we also have to talk about it differently. If all we talk about is the additional workload and how hard it is and not what people benefit from when they're working in it, it doesn't promote it well. So we also need to have those storytellers about what the profession is. Blake Oliver: [00:24:50] Well, and I personally know firm owners who have built practices around flexibility where, yes, you know, not everybody has to work full time. Plus where if you want to work 30 or 35 hours a week, you can. And yes, there's just adjustments to your compensation. But yes, like you get the flexibility that you need. And we've even seen that from a top 100 firm, a nontraditional firm. They're not even a CPA firm called your part time controller. Yes. Out of there on the East Coast, I think it was out of Philadelphia originally. And they're the 75th largest accounting firm in the country. And most of their people work fewer than 40 hours a week. And go ahead. Linda Wedul: [00:25:35] Yeah, that's where a system will start to adjust itself when it has all of that pressure on it. And I think that is one of the risks that the AICPA and Nasba take, is that we may see fewer CPA firms, we might see changes in let's lower the. Threshold for audits in order to relieve some of the pressure on the system and don't know that that's all good for the profession. Blake Oliver: [00:26:02] Yeah. I mean, I love to browse through the accounting subreddit because that's where you get a lot of really honest takes from anonymous auditors and some of the stories, it's hard to know what's true and what's not. But I can't imagine that people are going on there and posting these detailed stories that don't have some basis in reality. And one of the stories I was reading recently was about a senior at a large firm saying that, you know, they've got their firm is promoting non CPAs to manager and and people who really don't know what they're doing in a lot of cases simply because they have all this work to do all these audits and they don't have enough staff. Right. And what's the you know, if AICPA and Nasba are so concerned about risk, isn't that the bigger risk that we have people doing audits and we can't rely on the audit opinions now because they're not staffed properly? Linda Wedul: [00:26:59] I mean, that would be a concern. That is not what we want to happen. It is such a critical part of the profession because that goes back to trust and stability of organizations and communities. And that is such a critical role that we play. And we can never take our eye off of the ball, that it's a profession that is 100 years old and built more than 100 built on the shoulders of many people that have made extensive contributions that have built it. And yet we know that sometimes it can be one thing like an Enron, which we never want to have happen again. Right. We want to stay committed to that trusted profession. Blake Oliver: [00:27:39] And, you know, we came close to that with Silicon Valley Bank. Maybe that was our warning. Linda Wedul: [00:27:44] Well, we still have a lot to hear about that one. Speaker5: [00:27:46] So but but. David Leary: [00:27:47] But quickly, from a media perspective, it's very quick to blame accountants and accounting firms and but and none of that story gets told of, well, accounting firms don't many bodies and there's enough people working and and they're not they're not connecting those two stories even though we've seen in mainstream media these stories about the lack of accountants. But they're not connected to. Well, maybe the audits are kind of wishy washy, wishy washy. That's not the right word. But no. Blake Oliver: [00:28:13] I think you're making a good point, David, which is that if there is a problem and there is some sort of next Enron, if it turns out that the audit was understaffed and the work papers weren't done right, even if the auditors aren't ultimately to blame, they're going to get blamed. Right. Because they like that's it's just the optics there. David Leary: [00:28:33] Yeah. And then who's going to want to work in this industry? Like accountants get blame for everything, but that's another reason not to come to this industry. Linda Wedul: [00:28:40] But and it's also understanding what is the audit, what can an audit find? It doesn't find everything. And it's also understanding that. So that goes back to messaging and understanding and making sure that, you know, we are committed to having those difficult discussions with clients and doing the work that needs to be done again for that financial stability. And it's so much more fun to talk about the organizations that grow. Think of how many small businesses have survived growing, hired new people made big impacts in whatever their area of industry is, and those are the CPAs we need to celebrate. Blake Oliver: [00:29:20] So one of the bright spots in the accounting profession has been client accounting services, accounting, bookkeeping, providing outsourced accounting services to clients. I'm curious to know, Linda, what are you seeing from Minnesota firms in regards to that line of service? Because I'm passionate about that because that was my business and my firm was all in client accounting services. Linda Wedul: [00:29:43] Yeah, And we're definitely we can tell from enrollments in our continuing professional education courses that more and more firms are taking a look at this and are implementing it into their service lines. I would say over the last two years, they were so absorbed with what was happening with the pandemic relief funds and just helping their clients, managing through. How do you apply for them? Do I qualify for them? I don't want to get in some I don't want to get into a new story because I took funds that I shouldn't have done. So I think there was a bit of a slowdown in it, but I believe we will definitely be seeing that pick up because that is where the growth is at. And so many small businesses again benefit from having those kinds of services. Blake Oliver: [00:30:27] Well, and they those small businesses are having trouble finding bookkeepers and accountants. Yes, Right. So it is exactly. I guess that's sort of a silver lining of the accounting talent shortage, is that there's a real need for that on an outsourced basis ... Linda Wedul: [00:30:44] Can I ask you one question? Blake Oliver: [00:30:46] Yeah, absolutely. Linda Wedul: [00:30:47] Okay. Because there was one thing I wanted to talk about just a little bit to get your feelings on it. On the 120 and the 150. For sitting for the CPA exam. So it started off with many more states were requiring 150in order to sit and to be licensed for the CPA certification. And now we're seeing almost all states going to be at 120. And I think that is another thing that somewhat drives people to thinking about if I can sit and pass the exam at 120, where is this additional 30 A requirement? So I'd be curious on where you're at on that and if that shifts people's decisions. Blake Oliver: [00:31:28] Yeah, it's interesting, right? It sort of calls into question the entire logic around the extra 30 semester hours if you can sit for the CPA exam. And I essentially did that because I never had an accounting undergraduate degree. So all of my 30 hours well, almost all except for the, you know, philosophy class I took to get to 30, maybe a 20 something were in accounting and business, and I was able to pass the CPA exam with, you know, first try all four parts. Right. I didn't need the advanced courses in the Masters. And my understanding is that the Masters often doesn't cover topics that are even tested on the exam. Oh, right, right. I mean, and. David Leary: [00:32:08] And if the extra 30 hours were so great and then they there wouldn't be this huge multi-billion dollar business selling review courses, right? Like like if the education system was working, people wouldn't have to. There wouldn't be this massive money in the. Blake Oliver: [00:32:24] What I really don't understand is that there are apparently, if you this is another argument in favor of the 150 is that it increases the CPA exam pass rate but that there are still a significant percentage of people who get a master's of accountancy that still don't pass the exams. And that to me is kind of shocking, right? Like it doesn't work that way with law school or medical school. You know, the vast majority of people who go to law school pass the bar. Right, right, right. But it's not like, you know, 50, 60% don't. And then same thing with medical school. If you've invested all that time, usually by the time you've gotten through medical school, you can pass the exams. So yeah, that's a really interesting point, Linda. Like, I hadn't thought of it that way, that changing the exam requirement is what's causing people to question the overall. Linda Wedul: [00:33:15] I think it's part of it, Yeah. You know, because I've passed and we have had multiple reports from candidates passing it at 120 and now they're just trying to find the cheapest and most expedient way to take those additional credits. And not everybody needs 30 credits. Some people need 20, some people need 15, you know, but it just calls that into question when I'm able to pass it. Blake Oliver: [00:33:42] I feel like one way to think about it. Let me let me run this by you both. Is the the CPA exam tests for. You know, it's a three legged stool, right? We have the education, the exam and the experience. That's what Ken Bishop of Nasba told me. And I think that's a great a great way to think of it. Three legged stool. You can't take away any of them, you know, get rid of them because the stool will fall over. Yeah, okay. So we got to have these three, but what is the purpose of them? And I feel like the purpose of the exam and the purpose of the education have been sort of mixed together to test knowledge. But really what the exam does and the way I think of it is that it tests the specific accounting knowledge. Did you learn everything you need to know from your accounting classes to be a CPA? The education requirement is really it should be more about just general qualifications to be a professional. And it used to be just a bachelor's degree. And I feel like that's enough to, you know, establish you as a, you know, having a good general education. And and then and of course, you have the experience requirement. I feel like the exam and the education have become kind of conflated and mixed up. Linda Wedul: [00:34:58] Well. And what I sometimes hear from the leaders of the profession is that that was a way to elevate accounting to be a profession. I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think everybody that I work with that is a member of the CPA believes that they were a profession. They were a professional when they got their certificate, not because they had 150 credits. And some of them actually take a little offense to that statement that it wasn't. It's changed over time for sure, because we've added technology, we have new rules, we have new requirements. And just like any any profession, it evolves and changes over time. But I believe everybody who is a CPA believes that they were a professional when they got that CPA certificate. Blake Oliver: [00:35:48] Yeah. David Leary: [00:35:49] And the branding, right. Like the consumer. They don't care. They see the. And they assume you pass the test. They don't. Did you get a degree? Did you not get a degree? Did you do 120 hours? 150 hours? They don't even ask those questions. No, they just they see the letters. And that's what's great. It means the brand is very strong. Yes. But they they just they let that be the brand. Let that be the test. Let that be the ultimate bar. You're not lowering the bar. It's not saying, you know, make the test easier. Right. That's the bar, right? Linda Wedul: [00:36:22] Yeah. That's the great equalizer, right across all of the states, everybody takes the exam. We have little differences in the rules between all of them. We have four legs on our stool because we also have an ethics requirement. You have to take an ethics test in order to become a CPA. Blake Oliver: [00:36:38] Well, Linda, I want to let you have the last word. Is there anything you'd like to add to this discussion, anything that we missed in our interview today? Linda Wedul: [00:36:47] Well, I appreciate that you were willing to let me come on and talk about what we're doing in Minnesota, because I am also passionate about the profession. And I want to see that economic stability that it brings to our organizations. And if there are students listening, it is an incredibly valuable career and you should continue to pursue it. And if you want help, give us a call in Minnesota because we will help give you some information that's going to encourage you to become a CPA. We have great schools here, too, by the way. Blake Oliver: [00:37:18] Fantastic. Thank you so much for everything you do, Linda. And it sounds like David has one. David Leary: [00:37:22] More thing I just want to plug. So Minnesota cpa.org they have a website called Broadening Pathways to the CPA credential and it is the ultimate website of all the information related. It has the it has the studies, the published studies, there's news articles. It has their podcast. It is the one stop shop. If you want to expand your knowledge on this first, listen to The Cloud Accounting Podcast obviously, and then go to this website and you can learn more. The one thing that's interesting in here, Linda, was just looking at the website. You surveyed your members and you saw responses or the percentages. It'd be really interesting to have truly, you know, like when one of those Netflix shows gets canceled and people make these online portals and everybody goes in and signs their name. Oh, to have a portion of this site where it's each member, they they, they really voice and they put their name out there and you have 10,000, 20,000 names and maybe make it so anybody, any CPAs anywhere can sign the petition. Yeah. Linda Wedul: [00:38:22] Great. Great idea. Thank you. Blake Oliver: [00:38:25] Linda. Thanks so much for your time. Thanks, everyone who joined us and who's listening on the podcast. Listen and subscribe to us on YouTube. You can get notified of future live streams, interviews with industry leaders such as. Linda, great to see you, Linda. Thank you again. Linda Wedul: [00:38:40] Yeah, thank you. David Leary: [00:38:41] Thanks, Linda.