Latest / WTF! Women Talk Finance / EP 12: The Hidden Cost of Success, with Katie Powell Hinitz

Transcript

EP 12: The Hidden Cost of Success, with Katie Powell Hinitz · WTF! Women Talk Finance

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jackie.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Kid.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this is WTF.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment, and let's get into it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining us again.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: We have a really, really special, intelligent, charming, beautiful, just stunning inside and out individual with us today on WTF.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Katherine Ann Powell Hennitz.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: For those that like the long version, I'm lucky enough to get to call her Katie and Kate and Candace.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Full disclosure, she's a sister.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, I don't know.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: You call her Keeks, Kiki.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: I call her Keeks.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's other nicknames that we don't need to like full blow up.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: But he is such like a sweet, cute, diminutive like nickname.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: And Katie is sweet, but like nothing about her is like diminutive.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Katie is one of the most accomplished, successful, like badass women I know.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we're lucky enough to speak with her today about what she does, like her own version of excellence, what she is exceptionally gifted at, and why she has just made a really, really, I don't know if I want to call it difficult, I'll let you put the adjective on it, Katie, but a really big career move.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: So diving right in, that's all the things.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sit back and enjoy as we chat with Katie.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, should we all be so blessed to have friends and colleagues like you both?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um it is a privileged one to be here, but two to work with you both and learn with you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks for having me.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's so good to have you here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I want to highlight too, because in my um my rough intro, there's a lot of letters after your name.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, she is a PhD, MBA, SEPA certified.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you're the founder of Kindred Consulting Group.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm just so freaking proud of you.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And not just because of the letters after your name, because of the person you are.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh having uh having uh recently spent three and a half hours with you in a canoe, I can confidently say there's no one I would rather be stuck in a canoe with for three and a half hours plotting arson.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so just such a joy to have you here.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we want to start with this episode.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked a little bit this season about you know, specifically women, but but anybody making big career shifts and having to make some of those really, really tough uh tough choices in the career, whether it's um making a shift in earnings, uh so major financial decisions, making a shift to bet on something that's maybe not a sure thing, making a shift to bet on yourself.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we wanted to talk to you today about you know kind of your experience in that, and you have two sides of this coin.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: You have made that tough decision, but you also have a degree in in uh organizational psychology, and so you have this like very um academic perspective on um on structure, on organizations, on those types of transitions, but you also have real lived experience.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So can you give us a little bit of like background on what it is that we're we're diving into today?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um thank you again, Ken, for such a lovely introduction.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: I will echo there is no one in the world I would rather be stuck in a canoe with um than you.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: And we can do hard things together, which was proved by that.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: So my career um thus far, I think, or most recently, had had a big shift.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it, Jackie, I would say it was difficult.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and it still is difficult.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's something without naming names, like can you tell us what you were doing?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Give us a feel, give us a vibe.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like big company, yes, great salary, great salary, perks, bus work and software.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: And what I think is most important to it was like a very sexy title and division.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so this was something, a little bit of background.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: I had gone into this company with a role.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was growth strategy, my background is organizational design, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a very fit for me, but but the skills that helped me be successful in that role got me what I lovingly call voluntold to an entirely new position I didn't even know existed, I didn't know what it was, but in the tech world, it's the sexiest thing you can become.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was like handed to me, and I was so grateful for it, truly.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: I learned so much, I made great friends, I did a lot of work that I'm really proud of, um, and I grew a lot through it.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: But it was handed to me as like such a prized gift, like wow, you get to be here, you get to be in this role, and that came with a lot of pressure and honestly a taking a back seat to like my own gut feelings of my own signals of what I wanted to be doing in the first place, and so stayed in that role for several years.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Again, did work that I'm the volunteer one or the first the voluntole one, voluntole, several years, okay.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I there just came a point where through those years I was also completing my PhD, and this role was great, it was very tactical, but it just didn't feel meaningful.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: The thing that felt meaningful were the relationships that I was able to build and like really using what I I feel so um blessed to do, which is like enable teams to do better work together.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so I felt most proud of my ability to take the team that I was responsible for and do hard big things with and inspire them in in tough times to say, okay, I'm gonna partner with you, I'm not an engineer, but I'm here to help you.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, tell me how I can equip you.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: I learned so much in that role.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: But I had finished my PhD and I just thought, I think I'm staying in this role because everyone around me in this echo chamber is saying that this is the cool place to be.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't love it, I don't feel called to it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: I actually feel stressed because it's not in alignment with what I think are my natural strengths or things that I enjoy.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was put at a at a kind of inflection point of saying, do I go out on my own or do I stay in a very comfortable position?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a I mean, I called Candice in a panic when I was making that decision because it was it was the biggest moment to date that I've had in my life of really putting myself on the table and saying, I'm willing to bet on myself and get uncomfortable and leave this behind.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: You said something, you had an interesting phrasing there that you felt grateful.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, like that that you had like kind of got into this role and it was the kind of the sexy role, and so you felt grateful.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes with gratitude can come a sense of guilt or duty as well.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that played a role into why the decision was so hard?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think so astutely, it can how you're summarizing that is the other context was this company, it's in the tech space.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Layoffs are at least once a year, industry-wide.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like it is just recurring.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so feeling a sense of duty to stick with the team who's been through multiple rounds of layoffs, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that's normal for that industry.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and also a sense of like, I need to be grateful that I'm here.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I was, I mean, but but to hold those two truths and then have myself in the center being, well, is this even really what I want to do?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't seek out this role in the first place.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was just it was such a cognitive dissonance for me for about a year, and I had to finally choose no one else was gonna make that call for me.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: I had to make the call, and that was a a big reckoning for for me this past couple years.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's like sorry, go ahead.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say it's almost like you had like survivor guilt too, going through the rounds of layoffs that like you're like, but I guess I'm supposed to stay because like it wasn't I wasn't the one let go, so like I I should stay because I should be grateful because somebody else could have had my spot.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, exactly.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so it that survivor's guilt is a such a good way to phrase that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's saying, okay, I'm here, but before this happened though, I wasn't super happy, but now I'm so grateful that I was chosen to stay and contribute.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it it's it's a really tricky paradox, I think, um, for many people in this industry to be going through.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have any sort of like trigger event where you were like, I need to examine this and choose either keep going or leave?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: And was it like a formula in your decision or was it kind of one thing?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like intuition-led or logic-led.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like walk us through the like decision moment.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: I I love that question.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I've ever thought of it that way.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: In thinking about it now, I don't feel it was one moment.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like death by a thousand cuts a little bit.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there was perhaps a series of moments where I felt every day I am not showing up my best self.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like every day I am getting further away from what I've worked really hard for in my personal life to learn.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm now I've I've learned it, I've accomplished that, and I'm not able to practice that, you know, in my job.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would say there was a feeling almost since that voluntelling of my role, um, that just kind of percolated in the background for a while, and then probably when I had graduated, I had this moment of that was one of the most challenging things I've had to do, and I'm not able to use it to help others, and that felt like such a disservice to not just my myself, but like the people who've supported me in that journey to go do something that I really wanted to do, that took a lot from me and from my support system, and for what?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna stay in a job that I I don't really enjoy and feel use my uses my strengths or anything that I've learned.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so long answer, Jackie, but I feel that I feel like I knew it pretty quickly, but I didn't listen to it until um many years later.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to dive into a little bit more of the the thought process, and of course, this is women talk finance.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there were big this there were big financial decisions that needed to be made here, and anytime we're making a financial decision, we are making a personal health, wellness, internal decision, right?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um whether you're taking more money but you're gonna have less time, um, or you're taking less money, less maybe um long-term opportunity, but now you have maybe a shift in your quality of life.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um can you walk us through what that process was like?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm guessing some of our listeners are going through some of those decisions right now.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: I would say, whoo, sorry, just had like a little dog underneath me.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I would say looking back, um, I don't think my calculus was as measured as I would like it to be.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna straddle both what I did and what I would offer in hindsight for others to do.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think because I had let this feeling of knowing this that this wasn't my forever percolate for so long unaddressed.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: It was kind of a ripcord.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: It was like a I am done.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm done.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: This is not where I'm meant to be.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: And luckily, you know, my um husband is so wonderful.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: I had told him, like, I just don't think I I don't know what to do, but I don't want to do this anymore.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, I would bet on you a hundred times over, like whatever you need to do, go do it.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: So he gave me permission to take a risk.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and some some things that happened in the company where it just felt again more value misaligned along the way, not from blaming anybody, just I had been simmering in this thought for a while.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would say, in hindsight, I may have been more measured in this decision.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: I would have probably stood up my practice on the side and then made the transition.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I would advise anybody else to do.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, now me, looking at past me, I would have said maybe let's address those feelings a little bit earlier.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Let's acknowledge that there's some, you know, lack of continuity between what you want to do and what you're doing, and voice them.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't really give people in the company an opportunity to solution with me, but the fact of the matter is I really didn't see a future there.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, getting back to kind of the financial decision, one of the things that I really underestimated was how much my my worth had been wrapped up in my compensation and the allure of this title and being in this industry and getting to work in a big city.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so cutting that line, you know, there was just an emotional tax that I had not understood would be there.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I am so happy to have paid it, and so happy to have had a support system that was so excited for me to go bet on myself.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I would have perhaps been a little bit more patient, and I think that patience would have been afforded had I actually acknowledged some of this um disconnection within myself much earlier.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: So the finances just became a real mental challenge to say, I'm not taking a step back, I'm investing in myself.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: So not looking at the numbers the same way because the first couple months of being out, you know, I'm sitting there going, okay, it's going fine, but what about the next month?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: It was like starting to get very threat-minded.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, that was something that, you know, you have certainty in the employment elsewhere.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it was a it was a big mental shift.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: I would say I haven't overcome it yet, but something that certainly um there's there's a tax to it that I didn't understand, which is if you're making a great salary with cushy benefits and you leave that, your emotional tax will be there that you haven't yet had to pay.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love that phrase, emotional tax.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you you also keep talking about like alignment or disconnection.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think this comes down to value systems, right?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And no judgment.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: There are times in your life and phases in your life where the value is like I've this is my nugget or my nut that I need to crack each month.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: My highest value right now is the money coming in and consistency and reliability and paying for the things I need to pay for, and funding the life choices or the kids or the education, whatever it is.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's just like a this is a have to, it's a priority right now.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's an illness, a family member who's like sick, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: You're you have your values, but the prioritization of those can shift or move around a little bit based on life circumstance.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you um you sound like you are in a place where something in the value system, like you there's value in a sexy title for sure.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Makes us feel good and important and like validated.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: So like having that status.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of your identity.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like city girl, leave your comes on.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, like watch our next step hallmark movie where I end up in a small town.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, exactly.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I think Jackie, you I love kind of how you're phrasing this because it is it's a it's a my priorities when I started was what a what an amazing way to build my career and learn so much and work with so many phenomenal people.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, over time, you know, it just it felt like wow, I've learned what I need to here.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see a future where I can deploy my my skills in the way that I want to.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: I see a bigger future for me elsewhere.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna have to be a little patient for it, I think, um, and be willing to take those value things that I love that are nice, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: The allure of the title, the allure of or the safety of the income, especially as my husband and I are then starting a separate business together.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that certainty was really nice.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we had to be okay reordering those values, and it's something that I I didn't make the decision alone because when the time came, like I said, where I'm gonna go bet on myself, I call my support system and like I'm kind of freaking out.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is this is this a bad idea?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I would say that that these decisions don't have to be made alone.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: That is not unusual.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: That is the founder reality.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we step in right there.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tom Powell, and at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and going back to this point of like the prioritization of your value systems, like for our listeners, again, no judgment.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever you value right now, that's your value system.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then the prioritization of that, that's unique to your own your own circumstances.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe like for advice for our audience, like if you are going through this or something similar, like reassess and go, really, what what do I really care about?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: What is this job meeting as far as my needs, as far as what I care about, as far as my value system?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: And is that the priority right now?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: If it is, okay.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Then maybe that that changes at a different time.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: But it can kind of help with the I think decision-making process if you're really stuck.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: And like what's the real value?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, starting with like the goal, like what why am I here?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and and I do think invite people into that process.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: If you have a wonderful colleague there who can see a future for you here that you can't, you know, I was privileged to have two of very good girlfriends, my company who I had talked with about this.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, they were just they were so measured in seeing me both as a professional and my needs.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say that I don't know if those questions can always be answered in isolation.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can start saying, Well, something doesn't feel right, and I think inviting people to help you unpack it is something that served me quite well.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: I and I don't actually know the answer to this.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, was there any?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think some sometimes we get nervous.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: What will people think?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm walking away from this.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um was there anyone who maybe who didn't understand the decision or maybe was a little critical or surprised that you made this choice?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: One, two, I do think that um I I show up with a pretty pleasant disposition.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm just like, okay, we'll go do it, blah blah blah.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I think my simmering was hidden from a lot of people.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I do think that it was surprising.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would say the pressure came to perform after, to be like, I'm on to bigger and Better things, baby.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that was self-imposed pressure.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: I had to really lean back on people care much more about themselves than they do others.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so this is all in my head here.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there was an immense pressure to walk out that door and be like, I am going to outmatch what I did there immediately.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: And as a solopreneur, you know, that's not always the case.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly wasn't mine, and it was lonely.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I saw you, and you were you were so committed to that goal that you were putting your health on the line to get it.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and it was like you traded one thing for another for the sake of just like being being right.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like you it was amazing.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's been amazing to watch your growth through this in finding finding different joys and different and different things.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and I do I think you're so right, Ken.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: There was something in me where I think back, Jackie, to your values discussion, the values conversation now had to be with myself.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like I am the job.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had to make sure the job that I am creating still hones in on those values.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that really was a catalyst for me was you know, I'm not showing up as my best self.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I couldn't even do that in the way because I had said, wow, I really need to go achieve, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: I need to, I need to achieve, and I it just kept that kind of um the term is hedonic treadmill going.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I was just running this little rat race, but now in isolation, that was also a problem.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so going back to those values, right?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: Of okay, well, what do I want this to look like?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: What do I want to do?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and how do I want to contribute were were questions I think I will always try to answer, but really grounding in some of those more tense moments.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So for listeners, maybe sitting in this moment, and and I sometimes think some people are just waiting for an an adulty or adult to tell them what to do.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I am.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just waiting.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, when does the grown-up come in and tell me what the exact best possible decision is?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say to somebody sitting in that in that thick of that right now?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: I love I love that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's part and parcel to our whole conversation here is sit with the question and invite people to the table, people who you trust and know.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think for me it was this clarity on something's wrong, something's not aligned, something's not aligned here.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um anymore.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: It was, and and it's not anymore.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And having people who you know and love in that space to help say, yeah, I I see it too.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: I see that it doesn't bring you joy, I see that you want to have, you know, be able to do this and that, or your priorities have changed.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: So having that help has been really nice.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, for someone in this moment, I would say that kind of in a in a macro sense, I think people are so much better equipped to build than ever before.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think the tools that were really gatekeep to people with immense resources to go build pipelines, build amazing sites, build like to be able to take an idea or a spark of something that they really enjoy and put it out into the world.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's really available to go do.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say start maybe doing that.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: If you have like this level of misalignment, I would say don't pull the ripcord per se, but start start watering that seed because these tools are available.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Invite people who know and love you from both a professional and a personal sense, kind of help shape that values piece for you to say, okay, well, this is how I want things to shift for me a little bit.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you'll be amazed at the input and guidance that others who know you can kind of help walk you through the fogginess.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's also so important to remember that, well, most of us, and it's it's beautiful that we do, most of us have a lot of options.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: You have a lot of choices, you have a lot more freedom and flexibility than you believe.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of our limiting beliefs come from ourselves.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, the the treadmill you were on, Kitty, was just with yourself at some point.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was very isolating.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um we get locked into these mental frameworks where it's like, oh, I I have to do this, I need to be here, I have to, I need, I should, I whatever.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can relax into this idea that you actually have more options than you're thinking of, and this goes to like leveraging your relationships, trusted people that can see it from the outside.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of us have a lot more options than we realize.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what, Jackie is so poignant in that is in the industry that I was in, the undercurrent was be grateful for the job because layoffs come frequently and no one's getting hired.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: The job market is tough.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And sitting with being like, well, okay, potentially for those places, but people are hiring, new businesses are coming.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do I need to be to do for the opposite to be true?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: And that's such a more empowering place to sit because the other way is kind of indenturement, like it's saying, okay, well, I have to sit here even if I don't love it, because the outside is scary.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I I I hear I think we've all experienced like that's not true, but we love to feel the I feel like there's this energy that says, no, no, no, don't look outside.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's too scary, you can't go there.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: But again, we're people are more equipped than ever to be able to start something new.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: And um jobs, jobs are around.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's about who you know, and enable people to help you in your journey because people I've been amazed at the people who have come to help me as soon as I asked, but I just had to ask, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and deciding too.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think like a great self-check would be am I here because I feel guilty about being like I'm staying because I'm guilted into staying, or because I have fear about making a shift, or I feel like I have to be grateful.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have some sort of survivor's guilt about this, and I just I need to be grateful that I still have this.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes it's hard to just even look at is this even what I want?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so it's a big decision.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I've I have friends right now that are making not just career moves, but they're shifting industries.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're really starting over in a whole new industry and making those big decisions.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some are going back to school to learn a whole new skill, to then go into a new industry.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's that whole other layer of what will people think?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: How will people I had this status and I gave it up to go do this?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So unpacking that first and deciding like, are those the reasons I'm even staying?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Versus does it fit my value?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And your values can change.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have had many a moment in my life where it was like all that mattered was the money.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I that I will probably have those moments again.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right now I'm in a very different moment of life where that's not what's driving me, and um uh freedom of of my time and my my mental resources are really so important to me, and seeing the value that I'm creating.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's what's current.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: But just you that's the self-work.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the hardest part is is asking yourself that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: And going slow, I would say like these are the moments I think as as women broadly, um, though men do it too, I I see them do it, but I think women are caring a lot, and it taking a moment to go slow and go, ooh, something's up, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's those types of questions, or when something's great.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like I would say it felt a bit bumpy for me out of this transition, and I'm so grateful for those bumps.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: I've rounded myself out just a little bit more, you know, and and so I think taking a moment to also slow down and pause and be like, I'm so proud of that, or I'm so grateful for those moments, or I'm so I'm so grateful that my values and my work align now.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it doesn't mean go slow when something's up.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Go slow to like take a breath and say, Wow, okay, I'm really in alignment here, and this feels so great.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I love what you said, can of give yourself permission for that to change, because it will, and that's okay.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think the purpose is to change and to grow and to evolve, and and so giving yourself permission that it's okay to have those priorities shift over time and then be equipped to act upon those shifts is is a journey that I don't know if if a lot of people talk about.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for talking about it with us here today.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we are you there's so many nuggets of wisdom, and it is it's important to share because it can feel very isolating.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: It can feel like no one knows how you feel in this moment.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: But like talking about it, normalizing it, getting support is so helpful and so important, whatever your decision is.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we are so lucky because you're gonna join us again.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna do another episode with Miss Dr.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Katherine Ann Powell Hinnitz.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: I feel in trouble when when it's full named.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's and I'm like, am I going in the right order?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: Perfected it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, maybe Dr.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Heinz.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like there might just be a big mistake and around.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: All right, well, thank you.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Let's wrap this episode.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was such a pleasure and always a joy to chat with you.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we'll pick it back up.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Next topic, a little bit of AI.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Wonderful.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that was today's episode of WTF.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you laughed, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And send this episode to a friend who might need it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: See you next time on WTF.