Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / World Cup as Meet-Cute Fodder, KT Hoffman on Romance and Baseball, and a Bull Durham and Fever Pitch Doubleheader

Transcript

World Cup as Meet-Cute Fodder, KT Hoffman on Romance and Baseball, and a Bull Durham and Fever Pitch Doubleheader · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio eight three one podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: We're your hosts it Sinjon Obasker and Tyler McCall, and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: we're so excited to talk everything romance, from the novels
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: and the tropes to the book, to screen adaptations and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: of course the drama of it all, you know, unpacking
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: what the genre says about who we are and how
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: we love. So sanch I have to know. Are you
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: on World Cup?
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: TikTok I am?
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: I'm also on World Cup New York, as in I'm
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: walking around as I live here and World Cup is
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: happening in the World Cup is happening, which means it
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: is actually unavoidable.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: As someone who did not care about soccer aka football
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: until like mid June when this all started, it has
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: been a delight because I have just been getting so
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: much great content on my social media feeds about the
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: way that our culture is welcoming other cultures. I'm getting
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of Europeans. I'm raating American fast food, which
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: is one of my favorite genres of content. I'm getting
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a lot for some reason, specifically probably because I watch
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: every single video that I get of this of like
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: the Dutch left right, like the jumping dance dance. Yeah,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: thing that they do like minnows and a pond. Yeah,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: I'm like really obsessed with it. But the content that
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I have enjoyed most, that I've sent to you every
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: time I see something is the stuff that feels straight
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: up like it is the opening sentence to a romance novel.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: For example, this tweet that I sent you, which said,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: overheard a dude in a USA jersey at Kansas City
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: FanFest telling a girl in an Ecuador jersey quote, I
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: will take off this jersey and learn Spanish for you
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: That is a romantic gesture.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: That's a romantic gesture.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: So good. That's so good.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: The World Cup has, like, I feel like, all of
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the the qualities necessary, the opportunity for meet cute, the
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: operation for enemies to lovers, rivals to lovers, the opportunity
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: for friends to lovers with like people touring this new
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: country together, like watching the World.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Cup, vacation romance.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Hello, it's what I need.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Germans going to waffle House in Atlanta.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: The Germans discovering waffle House.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: It's a beautiful time to be alive.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: But I'm curious if you're seeing this potential oh yeah.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: I mean I personally, as a Georgian think of waffle
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: house as a deeply romantic location. But I am also
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: seeing I think the most romantic stuff that I've seen
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: has actually been related to the Scots. When the Tartan
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: Army were in I think that's what they're literally calling themselves.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: The Tartan Army were in Boston. There were all of
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: these videos on my feed of men in kilts like
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: consensually obviously picking up women in bars and like throwing
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: them over their shoulders in like these grand romantic gestures.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: I watched a TikTok I don't remember if I sent
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: this one to you, Tyler where that was happening, and
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: the comment section is literally all people being like, your
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: child's last name is about to be McCoy in nine months,
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, we're about to get and she was a
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: career black one. It was like this, there's about to
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: be a flock of Scottish black children. Oh Like, coming
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: out of Boston, it.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Feels very spring break. It feels very like adult spring break.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess spring break can be for adults
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: if you're in college, but like it is an energy
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: unlike any I have seen since I was in college
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: on spring break. It's like room spring vibes, like we're
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: just like nothing that happens is real. I was getting
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a ton of tiktoks of women in Boston like getting
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: dressed up and being like, if you are in Boston,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: you need to go out right now, you need to
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: go out on the town. You need to leave your house,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: put on the dress, get outside. Everything about it so romantic.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: I also was getting so many tiktoks of Japanese people
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: trying Texas barbecue for the first time.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: God blessed.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: They'll like, I'm sure everyone has seen. It's like one
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of the most viral tiktoks I think from the World
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Cup so far. But it's a a Japanese man being
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: interviewed for like a US TV station and he's like,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: I don't speak very good English, but I'm excited, and
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: he like yells into the microphone and the newscaster shouts
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: it back at him. It just creates such an infectious energy.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: That's part of the romantic appeal, right yeah.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: But like I mean, one, the fact that everyone is
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: on vacation and it makes the people who live there
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: feel like they're on vacation because they're on vacation with you,
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: Like it's it's the energy of people being so excited
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: to be in a place that is typically like normal, routine, average,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: it suddenly becomes this like special, invigorated, energetic place.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: So it's a novelty.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: But it's also to that point, like the language thing,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: that you're finding other ways to understand people. But also
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: everyone is here for a good time. Everyone wants to
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: understand each other. Everyone wants to have a good time
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: with a stranger, like romantic or not. And there's something
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: about that active pursuit of connect that I think is
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: romance novel fodder absolutely, and like I will learn Spanish
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: for you. My English isn't very good, but I'm excited,
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Like people are finding ways to connect capital ce connect
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: no matter what that looks like, which I think is
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: is so lovely to watch.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is really elevating the mundane. I was just
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: thinking about this, not since Kate Goldbeck's Daddy Issues has
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: a chili seem so sexy, then watching like then watching
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: a tourist try a triple dipper for the first time
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: and do one of those cheese poles and they're so
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: excited do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Chili's Triple Dipper is in and of itself like a
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: TikTok trend. And so it's very funny to me how
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: many videos I get of Taurus of many ilk like
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: thrilled to be sat in a Chili's, which like how
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: mundane is a chilis to you? Do you know what
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I mean?
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: And it's watching these people connect, as you said, I
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: you know, I was getting so many tiktoks of Korea
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: fans in Mexico, and like the language barrier wasn't stopping anybody.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Like the amount of common that I saw that were
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: like mash up names of Korean and Mexican ancestry were hilarious,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: similar to what you were saying, like there's about to
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: be an influx of Korean Mexican children, you know, like cheers, cheers, cheers.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it's just the idea that like chemistry,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: like romantic, platonic, whatever it is, chemistry transcends language absolutely
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: that that's a real romance principle, isn't it Like that
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: you can go questing for connection and find it with
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: people who are excited to meet you. Excited to chat
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: with you. That I think just creates such rich romantic potential. Also,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: like kind of related, have you read a lot of
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: soccer romances or football romances?
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I haven't. I don't think I've read a few.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I've read Two Laft Feet by Cali Embleage, and I
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: really liked that.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: Sports romance isn't my primary niche I have read sports
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: romance and basically every major sport.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I can't think of a soccer romance that I've read.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: And it's making me wonder why not, especially because World
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Cup time is like it's such perfect, like you said,
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: romance novel of fodder.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: I have a feeling in about two years time we
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: will see an influx of soccer romance. I'm feeling what
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: that's like is that the general publishing timeline. I feel
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: in two years time we will see like a flood
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: of soccer romances because I'm sure that I, like every
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: romance author on the planet is locked in on this moment,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: being like, hang on, I got an idea.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would love to see that. And I
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: think it's also that soccer more than other sports. And
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: maybe I'm just saying this because it's World Cup time
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: because Tartan Army is in town because Brazilians took over
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Times Square recently. Look it up if you haven't seen it.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: I think there's also a lot of interesting stuff here
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: about sports and nation and national identity and like geopolitics,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: which we know shows up in romance right Like we
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: talked to Anna Marie Vilkova about Russians, and I think
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of really interesting writing about how like
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Scottish and Irish people show.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Up in romance.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: There are a lot of interesting things in romance around nation,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: country and identity, but I think soccer romance is the
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: sport that's best equipped to actually explore that absolutely if
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: chosen in a sports romance vehicle, which is interesting to me.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: There are so many little stories about human connection and
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: victory that emerge out of big events like this. I'm
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: thinking about the Cape Vered goalie who now has ten
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: million followers on Instagram because he held it down in
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: the Cape Guard Spain game.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: And it's not.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: I think he's married and has a family and all
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: of that. It's romance in that it is romantic for
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: an underdog to win.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Actually, that's actually a really great tea up for our
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: guest this week Katie Hoffman, who loves writing about underdogs
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: and loves writing about romance, but also is specifically a
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: baseball romance novelist and loves writing about trans hope and
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: gay kissing and loves the Seattle Mariners and wrote a
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: book called The Prospects, which is about underdogs in the
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: minor league. And I think, carrying on this theme of
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: sports and hope and love and underdogs, I'm really really
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: excited to talk to him about baseball and romance.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Sports, summer, sports, summer. Hi, Katie, it's so nice to
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: have you. We're here to talk about baseball today.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: Background. I started out in historical fiction. I did not
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: start out in romance. Wait cool, I mean I will
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: say I have never written a book that doesn't have
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: a romance in it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: So well, there, there you go.
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: But one of the characters in the book was a
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: baseball player because I was like, you know, what's really
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: old timeyball?
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Baseball?
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: I mean, so I had written this character who was
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: a baseball player, and I didn't really know anything about baseball.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: So as I was working on, like I don't know,
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: the fourth draft of that book or something, I thought,
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: you know what might be good is if I watched
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: a baseball game, like any single baseball game, because it
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: wasn't like a big part of the book. But I
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: don't know. I love research, It's why I started in
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: historical fiction. It's my favorite part of writing. And then
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: I just got way too into it, like yeah, and
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: I ended up not going forward with that book. I
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: don't know, never say never. Maybe I'll come back to
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: it someday, but it's been eight years and I haven't
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: touched it, so who knows.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: As someone who, I really, full confession, do not know
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: much about baseball, but I've been turning towards baseball a
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: lot recently for many various reasons.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I am so fascinated by how.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Superstitious baseball fans are, and I find superstition to actually
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: be quite romantic as a concept. I'm interested in your
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: own relationship to superstition and romance and baseball.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: I also find superstition very romantic, which is like, maybe
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: not the healthiest thing for me to think. I joked
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: around last year because the Mariners made it to they
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: made it to the round before the World Series. It
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: was the farthest they had ever made it in the playoffs.
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: Like as a team, it's their fiftieth season, and I
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: joked that I was like, Okay, I can finally stop
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: like wearing my dingy Mariner's hat that I'm like, I
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: would wear it all day when they were playing, but
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: then I had to take it off before the game started,
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: when where while the game was on. Finally was like, oh,
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: finally I'm freed from where my mirrorers at all day
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: every time they're playing. Incredible, but totally like I know
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: people who if they get on a winning streak when
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: they're out of town, are like, I can't start watching
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: again until they lose.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Something that we've been discussing is that baseball does seem
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: like a very romantic sport. We're talking about baseball rom
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: com so, like I just watched Bull Durham for the
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: first time, and when you're talking about sports romances, you
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: don't get as many baseball romances. And I'm curious both
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: what you found attractive about it and so ripe about
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the sport Yeah for romance novel, and also what it
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: is you think is keeping other people away from it.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: Maybe so there is great baseball romance out there, but
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: it is not a market like hockey romance.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I think there.
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: Is this reputation baseball has of being really boring, which
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: I disagree with obviously, but it's kind of stereotyped as
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: like the old man's sport, like you can listen on
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: the radio. It's kind of like a nice summer day sport.
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: It's not exhilarating the way, like there's not fights happen. Well,
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: sometimes there are, there's really rarely fights happening like there
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: are in hockey. So I think there's this conception of
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: baseball as being more casual and not as intense, not
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: as exciting, slow, and like very rules heavy. I think
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: baseball is beautiful though it's a very elegant sport, and
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: I also think it can be really thrilling, and you
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: can enjoy a baseball game even if you only know
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: I think all you really need to know is like
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: if someone hits the ball and someone catches it, they're out,
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: three strikes and they're out, Like that's pretty much it.
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: Everything else you can kind of fill in. And also,
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: baseball fans usually love explaining baseball to people, so if
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: you ask someone around you like what just happened. I
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: went to a Mariner's game like two days before my
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: book came out. It was the first time I got
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: to see them play at home, and it was really cool,
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: and something happened. I was sitting behind someone who was
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: like tracking the whole game, like people will do a
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: pitch by pitch tracking in their notebook and it's great.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: And there was this weird call that I had no
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: idea what happened, and I was like, Hey, what was that.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: She was so excited to explain it, and I don't know.
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: I love that. I think baseball fans are often very
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: generous with their time. I love the distance of baseball.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: I love that people aren't on top of each other.
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: Watching these players come from like across the field and
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: like clumping together at the end of a win, and
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: they've been so far apart each like kind of in
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: their own silo, and then getting to watch them come
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: together on the field at the end of a win
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: is just like, to me, feels so much like when
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: you're reading a romance novel and these like people will
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: just not get together and then like finally you get
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: to watch them crash into each other and it's so
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: exhilarating and exciting. I like the restraint of baseball, like
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: I think it's very similar to like a Slowburn romance,
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: And if you don't like a Slowburn romance, you probably
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: will not like baseball.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: The rules, the regulations, the superstitions, all of that about
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: baseball reminds me of romance as a frame. That like
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: our adherence to the things that make something romance genre
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: fiction like and the way that people can be so
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: particular about what qualifies as romance, and the arc and
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: trajectory of a romance novel reminds me of the way
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: that people think about baseball. Of like, when you know
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: that there is a way that things are supposed to be,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: you develop these like quirks around your great fondness for
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: this machine, this engine, this formula, whatever it is, which
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: I think is really lovely, And I think it's similarly
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: like if baseball is defined by its restrictions and constraints
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: and rules, both in the act of viewing and in
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: the act of playing, then so too is romance that
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: like it is defined by constraints in so many ways,
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: which I think is really interesting.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: But also why minor league I picked the minor leagues,
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: And this is not a popular opinion. I hate books
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: about the superstar, like Okay, nobody cares about the minor leagues,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: Like a lot of the games aren't even televised. People
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: don't pay attention to them. I think the only people
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: who pay a lot of attention to the minor leagues
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: are their family members and people who are looking forward
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: to those players being on the major leagues.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: And the major leagues, yeah, yeah.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: The minor leagues can be so mundane and there is
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: no big parade when you win, Like did you know
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: that the Brooklyn Cyclones won the championship for their league
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: last year? No, there's something so romantic to me about
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: the fact that no one is there to romanticize it.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: I liked the idea of these players playing because they
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: loved it.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Obviously, homophobia is like a huge problem across sports, but
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: The Prospects was so much about queer and transjoy and love,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm curious kind of how you were able to
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: contend with sort of those uglier parts of the sport
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: while also writing very beautifully about those things. I don't know.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: I think anyone who engages a lot with sports and
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: writes romance about it is going to contend with this
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: at some point, Because even if you're not writing about
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: a queer sports book. If you're writing about men's sports,
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of misogyny too. So even if you
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: are writing like straight white couple and neither of them
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: is marginalized in any way, I mean she is because
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: she's a woman. Like and maybe this is corny, but like,
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: I do think there's power in showing up. Yeah, and
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: like hmm, wanting a like not even wanting, but like
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: deciding that a space is for you too. I hope
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: that more people show up in a space if they
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: want to be in that space, and I want it
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: to be a safe place for them to be. And
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: obviously that takes work, and in writing it, I don't know,
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: there was a very specific tightrope to walk of acknowledging
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: the reality that Geene would be facing. I think this
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: is I've been told this book is like escapist a lot,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: and I don't know that I one hundred percent.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Agree with that.
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: Interesting And also it was very intentional to be like, Okay,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: if I'm putting this person in this scenario, it's not
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: going to be easy for him, But how would I
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: make it safe as safe as it could be. I'm like, Okay,
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: I think he needs a mentor who is gay and
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: who has the respect of his team.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: So you have Vince.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: I think he needs the support of like the organization
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: behind him that comes often from your manager. So we
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: have Baker. And also Baker is a woman in sports,
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: and she and Gene are not dealing with the same things,
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: but I think she understands what Gene is going through
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: more than other.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: People in the room.
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: And so in that way, sure, we've like developed a
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: very specific scenario in which Gene might be able to
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: be safe and like comfortable, But I think that allows
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: you the breathing room to be like, Okay, yes he
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: is going to deal with transphobia and homophobia, but it's
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: not coming from inside the house.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: We've talked about a few other baseball romances. But I guess,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: aside from the prospect, if there were a couple that
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: you could recommend that people start with if they're like
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: interested in baseball, maybe one for the people who love
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: baseball and like know the rules and want to like
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: go all the way there, and one for people like me.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Okay, I would say you should read You should be
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: So Lucky by Cat Sebastian. It is historical, which I
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: know some people undeservedly malign, but it's like mid century,
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: It's not super intense on the baseball side of things,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: and it's queer. End's beautiful and highly recommend cat Sebastian
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: doesn't miss Medium Baseball. I will recommend the Art of
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: Catching Feelings by Alicia Thompson. I think she threads this
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: like needle so beautifully. Of you can follow this book
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: if you don't know anything about baseball, and then if
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: you are just like a baseball sicko. Katiekzy like I
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: sometimes read Katie Casey's books and have to google things. Wo.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: I love that they've also like written like nonfiction about baseball,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: so they're just like very knowledgeable. Yes, I still think
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: you can enjoy those books if you're not a baseball fan,
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: but I also like, I've never read them now as
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: a baseball fan, so I don't know.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, Katie, thank you so much for coming and talking
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: baseball with us today. Thank you so much. We really
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: appreciate your time.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: That was such a lovely conversation with Katie Hoffman. I
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: so enjoyed talking about baseball and the prospects with him,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: especially as a person who is historically not understood a
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: lot about baseball or found it particularly interesting. I am,
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden so charmed by the romantic appeal
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: of baseball. And this week, actually Tyler and I.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Both have homework.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: We are both filling in the blanks on our baseball
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: romance knowledge by watching two iconic baseball romances. Though let's
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: put a pin in that maybe to be debated, but
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: we watched Bull Durham, which is a nineteen eighties movie
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: with Kevin Costner and Susan Sarandon. Kevin Costner plays Crash,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: a catcher, and he comes on to coach a pitcher
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: who has a million dollar arm but no discipline. Susan
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Sarandon is a groupie who he has intense romantic tension with.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: And then we also.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Watched Fever Pitch, which is an early two thousands movie
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: with Jimmy Fallon and Drew Barrymore, where Jimmy Fallon is
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: a school teacher in Boston who is like a Red
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Sox Mega fan and loves the franchise and has season
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: tickets and falls in love with Drew Barrymore, who is
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: high powered executive and he ends up having to make
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: some choices about whether he loves her or baseball.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: More. What did you think of Fever Pitch? Tyler?
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: So, I watched Fever Pitch when I came out in college,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and I remember being really obsessed with it. But I
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: was also really obsessed with Jimmy Fallon, Like this was
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: like the height of Jimmy Fallon's powers as far as
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: like being kind of a funny celebrity crush type. I'm
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: glad I we watched it. I could not have told
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: you a single thing about that movie other than the
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: fact that it's about the Red Sox and like the
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: famous fact that while they were filming at the Red
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Sox actually did win a world series, Like I remember
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: that being such a big deal.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: Which to me feels romantic. That feels like a romantic thing.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: That is, you watch this movie and it's definitely a
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: rom com. I mean, there's no question about it. It's
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: very traditional rom com. For me, it doesn't succeed on
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: that level because it does that thing where they get
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: together quite early, and the challenge isn't whether they will
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: or won't get together. The question is can they stay
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: together in the face of his fandom, because you know,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: she's a workaholic classic, and he is this huge Red
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Sox fan and he never misses a game, and baseball
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: has a very long season, and how will they work
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: it out? So I don't know if I felt like
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: it was successful in the romance category. What did you think?
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: I go back and forth about this as well, where
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: I wasn't necessarily romantically persuaded by Drew and Jimmy and
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: their story necessarily, But there's so many romantic features of
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: the movie itself, so like the happily ever after of
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: it all. There's a massive, grand romantic gesture towards the
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: end of the movie where he offers to sell off
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: his season tickets because he thinks it's the gesture that
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: will bring him closer to her and towards a more
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: full version.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Of his life.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: That feels like a classic rom com beat. It follows
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: in some way the thesis, one of the theses of
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: romance that I keep an eye out for, which is
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: that like love of a person can beget love for
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: a broader world, but in this case kind of the opposite,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: that like love of the broader world of the Red
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Sox franchise and the Red Sox family begets his own
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: love for her, like it's a thing that like distills
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: and shapes.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: His love for her.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: And still I have a hard time saying I would
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: be like, do you love romance novels and rom comms,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: You're gonna love fever pitch like. I think that there
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: might be something missing in that, yes, But I do
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: think as far as baseball romance, the instrument of baseball
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: is part of what makes this romantic, like truly romantic.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: His connection to this franchise.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: It felt very much like a good follow up to
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: our conversation with KT actually in the sense that it
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: did very much make being a fan of a team
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: seem romantic. It made the sport seem romantic. I think
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: for me, the most successful parts are when he's at
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: this game. You know, he has these season tickets that
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: he inherited from an uncle, and so they sit in
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: the same section, and he's with all these people that
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: he calls like his baseball family, Like he knows these
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: people and he has relationships with these people. And I
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: loved those scenes because it just made it seem so robust,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, like it's interesting because
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: you would see scenes with Drew Barrymore and her friend group,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: and that felt so under sketched to me, Like it
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: felt like sort of the obligatory counterweight of like, well,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: she has to have a friend group in a life
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: outside of this. I felt the same way about her
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: career for that matter. It's the obligatory counterweight to like,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: if he's really obsessed with baseball, there has to be
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: something that she has going on that is not conducive
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: to this working out right, So it's like she's a
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: workaholic and she really wants to pay raise. And her
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: friend group just felt very like kind of Greek chorus.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: They're there, but like you don't really know much about
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: them versus this baseball family had all this life and
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: joy and like different real characters in them and flavor flavor. Yeah,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And so it's like to be very convincing. Is like
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: a Baseball is Romantic movie?
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: Yes, So like Jimmy Fallon and and the Red Sox
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: are like load bearing in that movie. Yeah, in a
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: way that verymore and the writing of her character and
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: her world are not quite which is interesting because then
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Bull Durham is kind of I think the opposite for
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: me at least.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, because you are a woman of taste and distinction.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thank you so much.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: I found Bull Durham not that we should put, you know,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: two pretty best friends in competition with each other. But
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: I do think that Bull Durham came out as a
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: stronger movie for me in watching these so close together.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I think it's a movie that honors the like superstitious offbeat.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: You think that you have any.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Control, but baseball is a game where you must master
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: the art of failure, and like you must be so
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: okay with things not going according to plan, but you
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: might try ritual and ceremony to get yourself closer to
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: a place of control, and ultimately you can't overthink it,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: which is really the thesis of Bull Durham, that like,
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: you can't overthink it, you just have to play. But
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: I think Bulldurham came out as a stronger movie for me,
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: and I can't tell if that's because I think the
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: romantic element is stronger or the movie itself is stronger.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's a little bit of both. And it's
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: funny actually, because I don't know that I would qualify
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Bull Durham as a rom com because I don't think
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the romance is the primary engine of the story, right,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Like it's like, yeah, I think Susan Sarandon's character is
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: the lynch pin of that movie, Like she holds that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: movie together for me. Obviously, she delivers like the opening monologue,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: which I think is even better than Kevin Coffner's Here's
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: what I Know, sexy macho manbit. I posted about this
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: on substack and someone commented, it's kind of like the
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Proto Challengers when you think about it. Yeah, that kind
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: of helped things click for me, where I was like, yeah,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: that absolutely is a lens through which I'm viewing this
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: movie in twenty twenty six is like what if everybody
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: got real cool, real fast, and I'll just like make
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: this work.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: There is actually sexual tension and chemistry between Tim Robbins
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and Kevin Costner in the time.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, I liked I hadn't even seen that.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: I hadn't even seen that post and I can watching it,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: so in that way, I'm like, that's romantic to me.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But there's also the romance of their relationship between
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: like a pitcher and a catcher and like these two
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: people who have to work off of each other and
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: like a mentor and a mentee like this this idea
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: of like he's an older player, he's more experienced, he's
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: brought into to discipline Tim Robbins because he should be
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: in the major leagues. It again, like Kati, we talked about,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: like how minor leagues are almost more romantic than major leagues.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: The romance of like trying in this like scrappy little
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: team of like has beens and could bees and all
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: of what's in between that and hoping that this one
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: guy gets promoted and like gets to move on. I
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: don't know, I found a lot of that really romantic. Again,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I think what you were saying about, like, I don't
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: know that this is a movie that I would recommend
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: to someone. If I'm like, oh, you're really into baseball romances,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: like watch this movie. I would just recommend this to
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: anybody who likes movies. Like I just think it's a
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: really good movie.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Both of these movies demonstrate the degree to which baseball
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: is romantic, even when it's not a rom com. Even
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: though there are romance plots in this but the very
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: act of like playing baseball, loving baseball, and loving baseball
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: with other people is something that is essentially and truly romantic,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: even if it's not a You've got mail ten things
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: I Hate about you Yeah sort of frame, though it
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: has features of that too. There is something beautiful and
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: romantic about people coming together at the end of a game,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: like Yes, both of these are monuments to that act itself,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: which is that's romance.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: That's romance, and that's the show, and that's the show,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: and that's the show. Call us and leave us a
• 29:51
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• 29:54
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• 29:58
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• 30:38
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• 30:41
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  Speaker 1: next week