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Thumper Forge-The Chaos Apple · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Are you dog doll? Line? Four? There gos ate up
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: damn doll? Are you dolly doll?
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Wine?
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Four? There gos ate up damn dolls?
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: She are you sing? Laugh like at home Land? He's
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: simper the maps forty.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Spark She.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't laugh, it's don't lass and stowhee fynt?
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: How are you sure?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Are you.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Nor Kington? Miss lawns fine like Macy stustom? Are lett
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: it be? Come humble then you clips? Are you?
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Don't?
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Don't?
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Are you.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Fine? Like macy Stuto? Let it be color on the clips?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Are you shto wherehead? Are you slight? Are you wait
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and shitt? So sweet?
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Are you?
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Are you wor word? Will it become the.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Attention pastures? Like eighty eight to the Optic Nerve is
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: now boarding Gate seventeen scheduled to depart at time thirty AF.
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: Welcome everyone to tonight.
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: On the Occult Rejects, we're biting into a very specific
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: kind of forbidden fruit, the kind that doesn't promise purity
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: or certainty at all, or even maybe uncertainty. It promises
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: paradigm whiplash. Our guest on the Occult Rejects is Thumper Forge,
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: also known as Horkos Gardinerian high priest, a voice in
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: modern pagan media and someone who moves comfortably between traditional
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: witchcraft structures and the grinning, reality bending current of chaos,
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: magic and discordian Is. His book, The Chaos, Apple, Magic
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: and Discordianism for the postmodern witch is a guide to
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: weaponizing belief as a tool, bending it, swapping it, breaking it,
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: and rebuilding it while dancing with airis and laughing at
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: the parts of the universe that take themselves.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: A little bit too seriously.
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: So, if you've ever wondered whether magic is about faith, focus, story, psychology,
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: or a cosmic prank that still somehow works, this episode
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: tonight is here for you.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: Boom beautiful.
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: So on this fine occult Rejects time, we should probably
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: introduce the panel of brilliant rejects.
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: As you can tell in the far corner.
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: We have the Cardinal electric Head himself, the King of Kings,
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: the Great Nicholas. I'm using his voice and I'm throwing
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: it over to him. Introduce yourself, Nick.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: What is what's going on? Thank you so much? That
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: was amazing. Oh that was great. Yeah. If people wondering,
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: uh yeah, my broadcasters.
• 4:07
  Speaker 6: Are working and it's just a complete mess. So I'm
• 4:10
  Speaker 6: using the laptop and ye whatever. So thank you very
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: much for doing the introduction. I never could have done
• 4:15
  Speaker 6: it as well as you or even sounded the audio quality.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: Wouldn't have sounded as well either, So yeah.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I think I think I'm gonna have to start using
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: you now one actually, So thank you, because I honestly
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: I hate doing intros, I really do, so.
• 4:29
  Speaker 6: You got the job. No thanks, but yeah, I really
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: appreciate it. Brandon Thumper. I'm really excited to have you on.
• 4:36
  Speaker 6: Like I was saying before, you know, I want to
• 4:38
  Speaker 6: tell people too his book. Yeah, I read I don't know,
• 4:41
  Speaker 6: probably maybe the first forty pages just keeping a real
• 4:45
  Speaker 6: but it reads completely different than most, Like it really
• 4:49
  Speaker 6: was something that I was like, oh, I feel like
• 4:50
  Speaker 6: I'm being told a storytelling, you know what I'm saying,
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: or it's like, oh, it's like like one of my boys,
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: like having a funny conversation with me, you know, like
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: we're hanging out, you know.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: So it's a really good read, and I'm.
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: Promoting it because it's just written a little bit differently
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: and I liked it, so, uh, yeah, I'm really excited
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: to have you on and and there is a lot
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: of information actually in there. That is one thing I'll say.
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: You're not going to get some chaos magic book that
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: is like you know, yeah, it was all right, not
• 5:17
  Speaker 6: too bad. There's a ton of information in the ship
• 5:19
  Speaker 6: to so definitely check it out. And Thumper, thank you
• 5:22
  Speaker 6: so much for coming on. Man again, I was really excited.
• 5:24
  Speaker 7: To have you on.
• 5:25
  Speaker 6: And uh yeah, uh, I guess I'll pass it on
• 5:28
  Speaker 6: to uh Judith, let's go, No Jen, Jen, my bad,
• 5:31
  Speaker 6: my bed.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: We'll get Jim forget about it, Okay.
• 5:34
  Speaker 8: No problem.
• 5:34
  Speaker 9: I'm I'm cool if Judith finding a day, but I'll
• 5:37
  Speaker 9: take it.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: No, then I'll forget you at the top and then
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: I'll suck it all up.
• 5:42
  Speaker 9: Well, what's up boss? Thank you so much, mister ninety three,
• 5:45
  Speaker 9: and of course brother Brandon for that amazing uh intro
• 5:48
  Speaker 9: for the whole show. I'm Jin the Ninja. I host
• 5:51
  Speaker 9: a show called Threshold Saints and we'll try out my
• 5:54
  Speaker 9: new tagline which is chaos, love and hypersition in the
• 5:58
  Speaker 9: a of Flux. So if you interested in my show
• 6:01
  Speaker 9: Threshold Saints, you can check it out on ig Spotify,
• 6:04
  Speaker 9: and of course my substack, which is Threshold Saints subsack
• 6:07
  Speaker 9: dot com, as well as at Threshold Saints on ig
• 6:11
  Speaker 9: and x Twitter, or you can follow me on my
• 6:13
  Speaker 9: personal account at Wukong Reborn which is wu Kong Reborn.
• 6:18
  Speaker 9: And I have a lot of episodes coming out and
• 6:21
  Speaker 9: a very very very special episode with David him Smith
• 6:26
  Speaker 9: coming up and it's going to be pretty epic, so
• 6:30
  Speaker 9: look out for that. And uh yeah, I'm really excited.
• 6:33
  Speaker 9: I love Obviously my background is more chaos magic, so
• 6:37
  Speaker 9: this is kind of the kind of show that I
• 6:39
  Speaker 9: would love to do. And so I appreciate everybody on
• 6:41
  Speaker 9: the panel, And thank you so much Thumper for and
• 6:44
  Speaker 9: Nick for having you.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Nice. No, thank you, thank you sir.
• 6:48
  Speaker 6: Actually I think I got that guy coming on soon myself,
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: Mike Baker wanted to actually try to come on with them,
• 6:54
  Speaker 6: so we're going to schedule a date. So nice, nice,
• 6:56
  Speaker 6: look forward to that coming out.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Robbie, what is going on?
• 7:03
  Speaker 10: Yes, doing great. Been working on illustrations and just a
• 7:07
  Speaker 10: lot of pushing inc the last few weeks. I'm Robbie
• 7:12
  Speaker 10: Marx or R Marx artist illustrator and if anybody wants
• 7:16
  Speaker 10: to check out any of my other stuff, I have
• 7:18
  Speaker 10: my metamind Cast podcast as well as all my miscellaneous
• 7:22
  Speaker 10: art on my social media et cetera, et cetera. But
• 7:25
  Speaker 10: you can check out my link tree which is link
• 7:27
  Speaker 10: tree r M A r X and that'll pull up
• 7:29
  Speaker 10: everything for you. And yeah, thanks for having me, and
• 7:32
  Speaker 10: I'm excited about this.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Robbie.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Unlast, but not least the Loon or Self Judith, what
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: is up?
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Hi?
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 7:43
  Speaker 11: I am so excited for this discussion. Unfortunately I haven't
• 7:47
  Speaker 11: read the book yet, but I am motivated to read
• 7:49
  Speaker 11: the book. You could catch me on YouTube and on
• 7:54
  Speaker 11: x as the Loon. I do more of self inner development,
• 7:58
  Speaker 11: and I have an episodisode coming with one on one
• 8:01
  Speaker 11: with doctor Rachel you remember her nick, and we're just
• 8:05
  Speaker 11: going to have two occult females having a chat. And
• 8:08
  Speaker 11: I have a couple of more things coming up. So
• 8:11
  Speaker 11: check me out on Twitter and on it.
• 8:14
  Speaker 9: Nice get it?
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: You get it?
• 8:16
  Speaker 6: That is what's nice? Listen all right? So Thumper, Well, unfortunately,
• 8:20
  Speaker 6: it's like the same question I asked everybody who comes
• 8:22
  Speaker 6: on the show that's in to the occult, what.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: Got you into this?
• 8:26
  Speaker 6: Like how did you find yourself one day saying, Oh,
• 8:27
  Speaker 6: this is what I'm going to get into, and I'm
• 8:29
  Speaker 6: going to make this all you a life journey.
• 8:31
  Speaker 8: You know, when I was about twelve years old, I
• 8:34
  Speaker 8: was flipping through a newspaper in like my parents' sitting room,
• 8:39
  Speaker 8: and I found there was an article about a coven
• 8:42
  Speaker 8: of witches going to see the Witches of Eastwick in
• 8:46
  Speaker 8: the theater, and it was sort of a fluffy kind
• 8:48
  Speaker 8: of human interest piece, and I think in retrospect it
• 8:52
  Speaker 8: may have been Lord Cabot in her coven, but I
• 8:56
  Speaker 8: didn't realize that there were actual witches in the world.
• 8:59
  Speaker 8: And so twelve year old me looked up and looked
• 9:01
  Speaker 8: at my parents and said, I'm going to be a witch.
• 9:04
  Speaker 8: And my good Episcopalian parents were like, you know, maybe
• 9:07
  Speaker 8: we table this, we don't focus on for now. But
• 9:11
  Speaker 8: that got the idea stuck in my head. And I
• 9:13
  Speaker 8: had always been interested in mythology and different religion and
• 9:17
  Speaker 8: just so in my late teens and early twenties, I
• 9:21
  Speaker 8: just started reading a bunch of books on witchcraft and paganism.
• 9:26
  Speaker 8: And in my late twenties, I was very skeptical about
• 9:29
  Speaker 8: a lot of the things I was reading, especially when
• 9:30
  Speaker 8: it came to Wicca, so I went and found a
• 9:33
  Speaker 8: Gardenerian Tuvin because I was like, where did this come from?
• 9:37
  Speaker 8: Like you guys have to like I wanted to know,
• 9:39
  Speaker 8: like the reality behind it, and I ended up sticking
• 9:42
  Speaker 8: with that and then eventually stumbled into Discordianism kind of
• 9:46
  Speaker 8: by accident. It was very similar in that Airis had
• 9:49
  Speaker 8: always been my favorite goddess when I would read about mythology,
• 9:52
  Speaker 8: and then to learn that there was a whole religion
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  Speaker 8: devoted to her really really just struck a chord with me.
• 9:58
  Speaker 8: And not long after that, I pratt fell into chaos magic,
• 10:03
  Speaker 8: and uh so I've been kind of doing all of
• 10:06
  Speaker 8: the above ever since.
• 10:08
  Speaker 6: Nice, what what is it now as we get into
• 10:14
  Speaker 6: this book?
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: What was it with this book.
• 10:17
  Speaker 6: For I guess chaos magic and Discordanism that you thought
• 10:21
  Speaker 6: was different or that they needed this book?
• 10:23
  Speaker 7: Like?
• 10:23
  Speaker 6: What's different about this book than what's out there already?
• 10:25
  Speaker 6: What did you think you were handing to the people.
• 10:26
  Speaker 6: That's a little different if it was.
• 10:29
  Speaker 8: What I really wanted to focus on was the idea
• 10:30
  Speaker 8: of chaos witchcraft. Especially in online spaces. There's been sort
• 10:35
  Speaker 8: of a growing identity of the chaos witch a lot
• 10:40
  Speaker 8: of people identifying as chast witches and nobody really knowing
• 10:44
  Speaker 8: what that meant, you know, people kind of having a
• 10:48
  Speaker 8: very broad general idea of chaos magic, people having a
• 10:52
  Speaker 8: very broad general idea of witchcraft and combining the two
• 10:55
  Speaker 8: as an identity, but not really knowing what that meant
• 11:00
  Speaker 8: or having having any direction as to what they should
• 11:03
  Speaker 8: do with that. So that's what I was really trying
• 11:05
  Speaker 8: to write for. Is you want to be a cast,
• 11:08
  Speaker 8: which great, here is here are resources for you, here's
• 11:10
  Speaker 8: information about that specifically.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Nice, heyboy, I have any questions before I keep going?
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, uh, I know you.
• 11:23
  Speaker 6: I mean I think you mentioned also Uhian witchcraft and
• 11:27
  Speaker 6: all that stuff too.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, would you would you want to give like.
• 11:30
  Speaker 6: A little bit maybe a little bit of an idea
• 11:32
  Speaker 6: for people what that is, because I'll be telling us
• 11:35
  Speaker 6: I've never really had any ring on the show for
• 11:36
  Speaker 6: that either, So like some people might be interested just
• 11:38
  Speaker 6: getting a little bit of an idea of like what
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: actually does that entail.
• 11:41
  Speaker 8: You know, Gardnerian Gardenerian witchcraft. The way the best way
• 11:46
  Speaker 8: to think about it is it was what came like
• 11:50
  Speaker 8: a generation before Wicka. The very condensed history is there
• 11:56
  Speaker 8: was this British guy named Gerrel Gardner who had been
• 12:00
  Speaker 8: living overseas for number of years, retired, moved back to
• 12:03
  Speaker 8: England and got involved with a Rosicrucian order in the
• 12:07
  Speaker 8: New Forest area of England. And in that group he
• 12:11
  Speaker 8: met or in that organization he met kind of an
• 12:13
  Speaker 8: inner circle of people who called themselves witches and really
• 12:19
  Speaker 8: all they wanted to do was like practice witchcraft and
• 12:21
  Speaker 8: punch nachi, not scenes, and he fell in with them,
• 12:26
  Speaker 8: and that was in nineteen thirty nine. In nineteen fifty one,
• 12:31
  Speaker 8: I think it was was when the anti witchcraft laws
• 12:33
  Speaker 8: in England were repealed, And by nineteen fifty four he
• 12:36
  Speaker 8: had published a book called Witchcraft Today, which basically said
• 12:40
  Speaker 8: I am a witch and I am part of the coven,
• 12:43
  Speaker 8: and here's here's a little bit about us. It's an
• 12:47
  Speaker 8: initiatory practice, so you have to go through an initiation
• 12:51
  Speaker 8: to be a part of it. It is oath bound,
• 12:53
  Speaker 8: meaning to take osad initiation, not to reveal the things
• 12:55
  Speaker 8: that you've been experiencing. But modern wick or the idea
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: of Wicca kind of grew out of that. Some people
• 13:05
  Speaker 8: who came along shortly after he passed away in nineteen
• 13:08
  Speaker 8: sixty four had kind of found the word wicca and
• 13:12
  Speaker 8: were identifying themselves as wicked versus just calling themselves witches,
• 13:15
  Speaker 8: and that word stuck. But the Gardnerian tradition is just
• 13:21
  Speaker 8: sort of the precursor to what we now know is wicked.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: Side note.
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: Gerald Gardner was initiated into the OTO by Alistair Crowley.
• 13:33
  Speaker 8: He did he was given a charter by Crowley in
• 13:36
  Speaker 8: that at some point in the mid to late forties
• 13:40
  Speaker 8: where thirteen forty seven, thank you, thank you. Yeah, he
• 13:44
  Speaker 8: didn't ever really do anything with the charter, and there
• 13:47
  Speaker 8: is floating around out there. There is like Alistair Crawley's
• 13:50
  Speaker 8: handwritten charter that Cardner kind of got from him on
• 13:53
  Speaker 8: Crowley's deathbed. So he did have proof that he was
• 13:57
  Speaker 8: a member or that he had authority within the OTO,
• 14:01
  Speaker 8: although he didn't he didn't ever really pursue that. And
• 14:05
  Speaker 8: while he was in the early uh in his kind
• 14:09
  Speaker 8: of the early days of his practice, he incorporated a
• 14:13
  Speaker 8: lot of Crawley into his witchcraft. And then some of
• 14:16
  Speaker 8: the witches who came along to practice with him took
• 14:19
  Speaker 8: all the they called it Crowley Andity, and they pulled
• 14:21
  Speaker 8: it all out and replaced it with their own original right,
• 14:23
  Speaker 8: so the Crowley didn't get passed down along with everything else.
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: I think, I think I had so many I had
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: somebody on the show recently where I think we're talking
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: about the Charge of the Goddess and how much that
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: seemed to like it was even very heavily taken from
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: Alison Crowley.
• 14:42
  Speaker 9: I think in the Book of the Law.
• 14:44
  Speaker 8: Yeah, a couple of sources it came from.
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: There was the Book of the Little influenced it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 8: There was also a passage in Charles Scott free Leland's
• 14:53
  Speaker 8: Roady a Gospel of the Witches.
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: Which was published in eighteen ninety nine.
• 14:58
  Speaker 8: But a lot of this put that film and getting
• 15:00
  Speaker 8: filtered through a woman named During Valiente, who Gardner initiated
• 15:03
  Speaker 8: in nineteen fifty three, and she rewrote a lot of stuff,
• 15:06
  Speaker 8: including the Charge of the Goddess.
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: Nice if you can also, because uh, I haven't, I've
• 15:16
  Speaker 6: only had like maybe two people on for Chaos Magic too.
• 15:19
  Speaker 6: Can you give me, like, you know definitions I guess
• 15:22
  Speaker 6: chaos magic versus discordium and witchcraft, Like where do they overlap?
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: And that where do they? I mean they kind of
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: overlap a little bit, maybe could you maybe give that,
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: you know, give that definition of people.
• 15:33
  Speaker 8: Sure chaos magic is, you know, I would love to
• 15:37
  Speaker 8: say it's we get together and shoot chaos from our
• 15:38
  Speaker 8: hands or that, or that we are like you know,
• 15:41
  Speaker 8: out in the eighth or doing doing chaotic things. But
• 15:44
  Speaker 8: it's really just an experimental approach to magical practice with
• 15:49
  Speaker 8: an emphasis on getting results. Of the idea of chaos
• 15:56
  Speaker 8: in modern context, people tend to see it as meaning
• 15:59
  Speaker 8: chaotic or meaning frenetic or kind of undisciplined or all
• 16:03
  Speaker 8: over the place. But within the framework of chaos magic,
• 16:07
  Speaker 8: the chaos is more of the Greek idea of chaos,
• 16:11
  Speaker 8: sort of like the primordial entity that existed before anything else.
• 16:16
  Speaker 8: So chaos is potential, and within chaos magic, the idea
• 16:22
  Speaker 8: is to take that potential or take potential and turn
• 16:24
  Speaker 8: it into not only possibility but probability, if that makes sense.
• 16:32
  Speaker 8: And the idea of chaos also kind of promotes the
• 16:36
  Speaker 8: idea that we can kind of go in any direction
• 16:38
  Speaker 8: we want to to accomplish our others. If you think
• 16:41
  Speaker 8: of you've probably seen the chaos star, the kind of
• 16:44
  Speaker 8: eight pointed star with the arrows. Yes, that was kind
• 16:50
  Speaker 8: of conceived by an author named Peter J. Carroll, who
• 16:56
  Speaker 8: attached a different color of magic to each arrow, which
• 17:00
  Speaker 8: he sort of lifted from the Cabitalistic tree of life.
• 17:03
  Speaker 8: If you move like moving through the separophemy in Hermetic Karbala,
• 17:09
  Speaker 8: you started melcouth, you start at the earth, and then
• 17:11
  Speaker 8: you kind of work your way up through the different
• 17:13
  Speaker 8: spheres as part of the great work to you know,
• 17:16
  Speaker 8: become part of the divine or merge with the divine.
• 17:19
  Speaker 8: In chaos magic, we're in the center and we can
• 17:21
  Speaker 8: go off in any direction we want to, based on
• 17:23
  Speaker 8: what our interest is or what we're trying to accomplish.
• 17:27
  Speaker 8: So that is, in a nutshell, what chaos magic is.
• 17:30
  Speaker 8: Discordianism is a modern parody religion based on the worship
• 17:35
  Speaker 8: of the Greek goddess Eiras, who is the goddess of discord,
• 17:39
  Speaker 8: who is sort of a minor player in classical Greek mythology.
• 17:45
  Speaker 8: But the founders of Discordism in the late fifties learned
• 17:49
  Speaker 8: of you know, we're read something about Greek mythology and
• 17:53
  Speaker 8: learned there was a goddess of discord, and they thought
• 17:55
  Speaker 8: that was hilarious. So they decided to base a religion
• 17:58
  Speaker 8: around her. It was absolutely supposed to be a joke.
• 18:02
  Speaker 8: It was supposed to be a parody of organized religion
• 18:06
  Speaker 8: and just sort of a way to stewer organized religion.
• 18:09
  Speaker 8: But it caught on and people started taking it seriously.
• 18:13
  Speaker 8: So there are a lot of people out there taking
• 18:17
  Speaker 8: the not serious, very very seriously in practicing religion based
• 18:21
  Speaker 8: on that. And then witchcraft is that's one of those
• 18:26
  Speaker 8: things where you've asked, you know, ask ten people, get
• 18:28
  Speaker 8: a lot of answers. But in my mind, witchcraft is
• 18:31
  Speaker 8: just unauthorized magic. It is magical practice that is not
• 18:37
  Speaker 8: approved of by whatever the authorities or dominant groups happened
• 18:41
  Speaker 8: to be in a given culture. Chaos magic practitioners tend
• 18:46
  Speaker 8: to refer to themselves as magicians because they're still kind
• 18:48
  Speaker 8: of working within a societal structure, a chaos which, on
• 18:52
  Speaker 8: the other hand, is working sort of outside of the
• 18:56
  Speaker 8: dominant paradigm and kind of doing their own thing, not
• 19:00
  Speaker 8: only for their own benefit, but to kind of do
• 19:03
  Speaker 8: what they can to influence the world around. Hopefully any
• 19:07
  Speaker 8: of that made sense, I can try again.
• 19:10
  Speaker 10: It didn't well, And you said, you know, Airis, I mean,
• 19:15
  Speaker 10: she is a rather minor character in regard to the
• 19:18
  Speaker 10: whole story of discord and sowing that chaos and rolling
• 19:22
  Speaker 10: that golden apple in for the goddesses to determine, you know,
• 19:26
  Speaker 10: which one is the most beautiful. But at the same time,
• 19:29
  Speaker 10: she's also the spark or the catalyst that started the
• 19:34
  Speaker 10: Trojan War exactly.
• 19:36
  Speaker 8: And the thing with Aris, and I mentioned this in
• 19:40
  Speaker 8: the cast Apple, the thing with her mate, with that
• 19:43
  Speaker 8: kind of foundational myths of the Wedding of Thetis, is
• 19:47
  Speaker 8: that at any time someone could have made a different
• 19:50
  Speaker 8: decision and prevented the Trujan war.
• 19:53
  Speaker 7: Aris.
• 19:53
  Speaker 8: You know, Aris gave them opportunities, and all that had
• 19:57
  Speaker 8: to do was was make a different decision. In my mind,
• 20:01
  Speaker 8: if you're at a wedding banquet and a golden apple
• 20:04
  Speaker 8: marked for the fairest rolls into the room, you give
• 20:06
  Speaker 8: it to the bride. It's her special day, right, But
• 20:09
  Speaker 8: the goddesses didn't do that.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 20:12
  Speaker 8: The reason they were having a wedding was because Zeus
• 20:14
  Speaker 8: had arranged a marriage because there was a prophecy that
• 20:16
  Speaker 8: any son of Thetus would overthrow him, so he was
• 20:19
  Speaker 8: trying to prevent that from happening. You know, the goddesses
• 20:23
  Speaker 8: all tried to bribe the judge. Hermes, you know, could
• 20:27
  Speaker 8: have picked a different judge. It just it was one
• 20:29
  Speaker 8: bad decision after another, and so the fault of it
• 20:33
  Speaker 8: can't really lie with Eiras. All she did was thrown
• 20:35
  Speaker 8: into the room and everybody mad decisions that resulted in
• 20:38
  Speaker 8: the well and.
• 20:39
  Speaker 10: That's the chaos.
• 20:40
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that is the.
• 20:44
  Speaker 8: But yeah, she she's always she's painted as the villain
• 20:47
  Speaker 8: of the story in retrospect. She was the milind one.
• 20:50
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: And an interesting story about the Principal Discordia or the
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: Lord Omar Kayam.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: The guy who wrote it.
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: Carrie, interesting enough, has his own chaos, which is he
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: was brought in on charges of assassinating JFK. And so
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: a lot of people thought that, you know, so he
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: has this whole thing where he was maybe brainwashed into
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: thinking or like a man Cherian style candidate that like,
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: because you know, Oswald was kind of thrown to the wolves.
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: But at the same time, Carry Thornley wrote a book
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: before the Principal Discordia that talked about this defector who
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: was upset with the United States, and that was actually
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: Oswald himself.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: So they actually knew each other, Oswald and Carry they.
• 21:40
  Speaker 8: Were believes they were roommates at one point that Discordia.
• 21:45
  Speaker 8: There was Greg Hill, who renamed himself not Eclipse Younger,
• 21:48
  Speaker 8: and Carry Thornley, who renamed himself Lord O Markaiam Ravenhurst.
• 21:53
  Speaker 8: And Greg Hill was like an IBM programmer and was
• 21:57
  Speaker 8: sort of this very chill, quiet guy. Carry Thornley was
• 22:00
  Speaker 8: very countercultural, and yeah, wrote a whole book about you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 8: like you were saying, kind of talking about his old
• 22:09
  Speaker 8: his old buddy Lee Harvey Oswald. He ended up under
• 22:14
  Speaker 8: a lot of scrutiny because of that. I don't know
• 22:17
  Speaker 8: that he thought that decision through very well.
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting how he became the very chaos that
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: Carry Thornton is, the very chaos that he was talking about.
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: It's very meta and if you got this many layered
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: nature of what's going on in the conspiratorial realms of
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: the sixties with the jfk assassination and then all of
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: a sudden, the same guy coincidentally creates the princip a Discordia,
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: and this this very thing that was disrupting the sixties counterculture,
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: which some think wasn't even counterculture, that actually was an
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: inorganic creation of the CIA's MK.
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: Ultra program right.
• 22:53
  Speaker 8: And you know it's funny that you would mention that
• 22:55
  Speaker 8: because in an interview one time, somebody asked carry Thornley
• 22:59
  Speaker 8: if he thought RAS was real, because, you know, like
• 23:02
  Speaker 8: I was saying earlier, the idea of this religion was
• 23:04
  Speaker 8: supposed to be a joke. It was supposed to be parady,
• 23:06
  Speaker 8: was supposed to be taken seriously. And so somebody asked Thornley,
• 23:11
  Speaker 8: you know, is RIS real? And his response was, if
• 23:14
  Speaker 8: I knew this was all going to come true, I
• 23:16
  Speaker 8: would have picked Venus very much. They did not mean
• 23:20
  Speaker 8: to create something, but by not intending to do so,
• 23:23
  Speaker 8: they ended up, you know, creating this religion that that
• 23:26
  Speaker 8: ended up being very real for a lot of people.
• 23:30
  Speaker 9: I actually have a couple of questions about Discordianism, a thumber.
• 23:34
  Speaker 9: Who would you say is I know you addressed some
• 23:37
  Speaker 9: of them, but who would you say are important Discordians
• 23:41
  Speaker 9: for people to be aware of? Because I know it's
• 23:43
  Speaker 9: a kind of a controversial label, one that people have
• 23:49
  Speaker 9: cast dispersions against me sometimes simply because of some of
• 23:52
  Speaker 9: my work on Tracy Twyman and you know, association with
• 23:56
  Speaker 9: some leftown path people. So I just want to hear like,
• 23:58
  Speaker 9: who do you think is interesting Discordians that people should
• 24:02
  Speaker 9: know about? And do you have any connections with a
• 24:07
  Speaker 9: greater network?
• 24:09
  Speaker 8: So the Discordians I think people should probably know about
• 24:12
  Speaker 8: are as we were talking before we went on Robert
• 24:14
  Speaker 8: Anton Wilson, who outside of the Principia Discordia, his works
• 24:20
  Speaker 8: were very influential to Discordianism and he built on some
• 24:24
  Speaker 8: ideas that became kind of core to Discordianism. The Discordians
• 24:33
  Speaker 8: that people don't know are Discordians. And this is going
• 24:35
  Speaker 8: to be a very gen X kind of thing. But
• 24:38
  Speaker 8: have you ever heard of a band called the KLF
• 24:43
  Speaker 8: or They were sometimes known as the Nine Wards. They
• 24:46
  Speaker 8: had hits in the nineties, Three Am Eternal, They had
• 24:48
  Speaker 8: one song where Tandy Wnette. They were kind of a
• 24:50
  Speaker 8: dance band, but Tandy Winnette was the lead singer on
• 24:52
  Speaker 8: one of their songs. If you've ever gone to a
• 24:55
  Speaker 8: basketball game and you hear the doctor Who.
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: Song, the Doctor Who?
• 25:00
  Speaker 8: That was the KLF as the Time Awards. But they
• 25:03
  Speaker 8: were a Discordian band and they worked a lot of
• 25:05
  Speaker 8: Discordian concepts into their lyrics and they were huge in Britain.
• 25:10
  Speaker 8: They were they had a few hits in the US,
• 25:12
  Speaker 8: but they were huge overseas, and their fame kind of
• 25:17
  Speaker 8: came to an end because one day they announced that
• 25:20
  Speaker 8: they were going to burn a million pounds basically, you know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 8: a million pounds being just British currency. They were going
• 25:28
  Speaker 8: to burn a million dollars worth of it. And so
• 25:31
  Speaker 8: they went out to like a boat house and they
• 25:32
  Speaker 8: piled up stacks of British pound notes into a million
• 25:37
  Speaker 8: and set it on fire, and there were news crews
• 25:39
  Speaker 8: there and they burned a million pounds and everybody sort
• 25:41
  Speaker 8: of stood there awkwardly, and then the news crewise just
• 25:44
  Speaker 8: turned off their cameras and left, and it was very
• 25:49
  Speaker 8: I think it was very meaningful for them, or they
• 25:51
  Speaker 8: felt like they were doing something very meaningful, and afterwards
• 25:54
  Speaker 8: they were like, crap, we just destroyed a bunch of money.
• 25:58
  Speaker 8: It kind of realized that there wasn't really point to
• 26:00
  Speaker 8: it after all. Those are the names that I think
• 26:04
  Speaker 8: in terms of like Discordianism quietly influencing pop culture, those
• 26:10
  Speaker 8: are the names I think people should know. There are
• 26:13
  Speaker 8: other authors out there like Adam Golightly or go Rightly
• 26:17
  Speaker 8: and Bretton Clutterbuck who have done a lot of research
• 26:22
  Speaker 8: into the history of Discordianism and who are who are
• 26:25
  Speaker 8: publishing books that have a lot of information that just
• 26:28
  Speaker 8: people just don't normally.
• 26:29
  Speaker 7: Have access to.
• 26:30
  Speaker 8: So anyone who's interested in Discordianism should definitely look up
• 26:33
  Speaker 8: those authors. And then there is a website called Principia
• 26:37
  Speaker 8: Discordia dot com which has the Principia Online free to
• 26:41
  Speaker 8: read with forums where a lot of just random discordian
• 26:46
  Speaker 8: concepts get tossed around to the forums as well.
• 26:50
  Speaker 9: Thank you so much, appreciate that. That was a great answer.
• 26:54
  Speaker 7: Thank you.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: You want to ask this some of big five dollars
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: for it.
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: So do you know the relationship between Discoridianism and intuitionism mathematics?
• 27:05
  Speaker 7: I do not, actually.
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: Interesting, I don't. This isn't a correct answer, obviously, but
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: there is a answer, and that answer would be maybe
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: some So when principal Discordia or and Discordanism, they have
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: the law of fives right. And then there's also the
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: idea of twenty three Skidoo, which is also then put
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: into the Book of Lies a whole chapter called twenty
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: three Skidoo, which is basically, get out, get out, get
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: out as fast as possible, you know what I mean,
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: and so you can and so, and throughout the Illuminatus
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: trilogy there was the two equals two plus three equals five.
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: There's the two to the two equals three degrees as
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: you walk up the Kabbalist try of life, which is
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: a you know, the degree structure of the Hermetic order
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: of the Golden Dawn. And so what they do is
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: they play. And then in the in the Taoist Ian
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: Yong's symbol, they actually principal Discordia took that as their symbol.
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: But instead of the two circles one black, one white,
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: it's one is the apple and one is the pentagon,
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: which is five. Then so it's order and chaos or
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: discord thank you, thank you, and yeah. And so it's
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: like maybe that could be related mathematically to whatever they're
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: talking about.
• 28:23
  Speaker 8: It certainly could be, and I will say hopefully this
• 28:26
  Speaker 8: ties in that a lot of like just as the
• 28:32
  Speaker 8: Internet was about to become a seeing, a lot of
• 28:35
  Speaker 8: computer programmers were both cast magicians and discordias. In England
• 28:41
  Speaker 8: when cast magic was sort of building steam in the seventies,
• 28:46
  Speaker 8: it was heavily influenced by ceremonial magic when it kind
• 28:49
  Speaker 8: of got important to the States. It got heavily influenced
• 28:52
  Speaker 8: by Discordianism. So all these kind of early computer programmers
• 28:57
  Speaker 8: were heavily influenced by this scordion and cast magic as
• 29:01
  Speaker 8: they were constructing the Internet.
• 29:05
  Speaker 10: Also, you have William Burrow's twenty three theory that he
• 29:10
  Speaker 10: has with the ship Captains and all the later got
• 29:15
  Speaker 10: kind of picked up within Robert Anton Wilson and the
• 29:18
  Speaker 10: Illuminatus kind of trilogy.
• 29:21
  Speaker 8: Yeah, within Discordianism, as was mentioned, there is the law
• 29:25
  Speaker 8: of fives that everything somehow equals five, and through that
• 29:30
  Speaker 8: the number twenty three became sacred because people is three
• 29:33
  Speaker 8: is five. But the yeah, the twenty three enigma is
• 29:36
  Speaker 8: is a crazy, crazy thing to dive into. Yeah, in
• 29:40
  Speaker 8: terms of the number of bizarre things that have happened
• 29:43
  Speaker 8: on the twenty third of a month, or that there's
• 29:47
  Speaker 8: actually a movie called I think it might just be
• 29:49
  Speaker 8: called twenty three, but it's it's just absolutely fascinating when
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: we when you go down that rabbit hole, you'll find
• 29:56
  Speaker 8: some crazy, crazy stuff. Oh yeah, I think the re
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: and why the number five was picked to be sacred
• 30:02
  Speaker 8: in Discordionism was again just sort of arbitrary to be funny,
• 30:06
  Speaker 8: and you know, just it's a number that can't really
• 30:09
  Speaker 8: be evenly divided into or whatever, so they it was
• 30:12
  Speaker 8: picked arbitrarily. But in Greek mythology, especially in the work
• 30:18
  Speaker 8: of Hesiod, the fifth day of the month was always
• 30:21
  Speaker 8: considered inauspicious because that was the day that Air escaped
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: birth to her son Horcas, and so, without intending to,
• 30:32
  Speaker 8: greg Hill and Cary Thornley inadvertently referenced classical Greek mythology
• 30:36
  Speaker 8: when they picked that number as sacred heras well.
• 30:39
  Speaker 10: And also with the five, the number, you know, you
• 30:41
  Speaker 10: have that pint alpha, you have the drooven foot, which
• 30:45
  Speaker 10: is the druide used to wear the star on their sandals.
• 30:49
  Speaker 10: You have this this idea of the five to the ten,
• 30:52
  Speaker 10: turning the man on his head and tapping horn. So
• 30:55
  Speaker 10: there's a lot of symbolical elements within the five itself
• 30:59
  Speaker 10: that relate to us as human beings.
• 31:02
  Speaker 8: Especially in the first edition of the Principi of Discordia,
• 31:06
  Speaker 8: there was a little kind of infographic of an upright
• 31:09
  Speaker 8: pentagram that was labeled good, and then there was an
• 31:13
  Speaker 8: inverted pentagram next to it that was labeled bad, and
• 31:16
  Speaker 8: the pentagram turned in a ninety degree eagle that was
• 31:19
  Speaker 8: labeled aristesque. So is the idea being that within Discordianism
• 31:24
  Speaker 8: there isn't really good or bad existence.
• 31:27
  Speaker 7: We're going in a different direction totally.
• 31:29
  Speaker 10: And that's kind of with any god or goddess that
• 31:31
  Speaker 10: you look at in the ancient world. There's always that,
• 31:34
  Speaker 10: you know, the life giver and.
• 31:37
  Speaker 7: The storm bringer as far as.
• 31:39
  Speaker 10: The dichotomy of the.
• 31:41
  Speaker 7: Two exactly exactly.
• 31:45
  Speaker 8: And that was one thing about Discordianism that I think
• 31:47
  Speaker 8: really appealed to me early on was that, you know,
• 31:50
  Speaker 8: within colastal mythology and within all world mythology, you know,
• 31:53
  Speaker 8: we do see the good and the bad of the gods.
• 31:55
  Speaker 8: We see we see the creative forces, we see the
• 31:58
  Speaker 8: destructive forces. And Harris was always just sort of this
• 32:01
  Speaker 8: kind of quasi villainous character. So within Accordianism, she has
• 32:05
  Speaker 8: given that creative side and she yeah, where she has
• 32:10
  Speaker 8: lifted up and seen as as more fun loving and happy,
• 32:15
  Speaker 8: go lucky versus just this kind of dour little character
• 32:17
  Speaker 8: from great mythology.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 32:20
  Speaker 10: And well, it's interesting because I came across the principal
• 32:23
  Speaker 10: Discordia before the Internet really even happened, and I didn't
• 32:28
  Speaker 10: know it had anything to do with Robert Anton Wilson
• 32:31
  Speaker 10: until later and kind of just tie in all that
• 32:34
  Speaker 10: together and it's yeah, it's just been an interesting journey
• 32:39
  Speaker 10: going down the whole chaos road.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 32:43
  Speaker 8: Robert Anton Wilson really developed the idea of the word schnord,
• 32:48
  Speaker 8: which in the parcipit of Discordia as just sort of
• 32:51
  Speaker 8: a random, throwaway, nonsense word, but then he built a
• 32:54
  Speaker 8: whole concept around it, where a is some thing put
• 33:00
  Speaker 8: in tech in print media specifically that makes you uncomfor
• 33:06
  Speaker 8: You can't people, everyone in the world is conditioned not
• 33:08
  Speaker 8: to be able to see the flwords. But they were
• 33:12
  Speaker 8: you put into like serious news articles and left out
• 33:16
  Speaker 8: of advertisements. So if you're reading a newspaper, you wouldn't
• 33:20
  Speaker 8: want you'd get uncomfortable if you tried to read what
• 33:22
  Speaker 8: was actually happening in the world, and instead you would
• 33:25
  Speaker 8: be drawn to the pretty pictures in the advertisements.
• 33:28
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 8: And so as characters go through their initiations and the
• 33:32
  Speaker 8: Illuminatus trilogy, there's the whole concept of I can see
• 33:35
  Speaker 8: the flords where one day they open up the bar
• 33:37
  Speaker 8: and they see the word snord everywhere, and they are deconditioning.
• 33:40
  Speaker 8: They are getting over those blocks that have been put
• 33:43
  Speaker 8: to keep them under control, right.
• 33:45
  Speaker 10: And well, and I don't know, you get into Robert
• 33:49
  Speaker 10: Anton Wilson in regard to him talking about his relationship,
• 33:55
  Speaker 10: his internal relationship with the ideas of the age of
• 33:58
  Speaker 10: mystic Sufi's and kind of when you go down that
• 34:02
  Speaker 10: Sufi road, you have this idea that nothing is either
• 34:06
  Speaker 10: you know, right or wrong, that everything that it gets
• 34:11
  Speaker 10: into kind of the cop the ideas of like cosmic
• 34:13
  Speaker 10: justice and kind of some of these things that are
• 34:16
  Speaker 10: outside of the scope of what the human understanding of.
• 34:20
  Speaker 10: You know, the dichotomy, dualism of right and wrong is.
• 34:23
  Speaker 8: Exactly exactly that's so many, at least according to Discordanism.
• 34:28
  Speaker 8: So many of those binary things are artificial constructions right there.
• 34:33
  Speaker 7: They are. They are man made.
• 34:35
  Speaker 8: Arbitrary concepts, and like order and disorder are man made
• 34:40
  Speaker 8: concepts that are a fractional reflection of creation and destruction.
• 34:46
  Speaker 8: But nothing really exists on a binary. Everything is a bimodality,
• 34:50
  Speaker 8: right Like you know, like if we think of of gender,
• 34:54
  Speaker 8: a lot of people will say gender as man and woman,
• 34:56
  Speaker 8: but they're you know, there are things that are definitely masculine.
• 34:58
  Speaker 8: There are things that are sort of masculine, things that
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: are kind of feminine but not really, there are things
• 35:02
  Speaker 8: that are.
• 35:03
  Speaker 7: That cannot be different.
• 35:06
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it's all kind of a spectrum with with high
• 35:09
  Speaker 8: points on it, and everything in the world really is
• 35:11
  Speaker 8: a lot more like that than just a binary or
• 35:14
  Speaker 8: a binary right and wrong.
• 35:15
  Speaker 10: Right, everything kind of lays in a gray area.
• 35:19
  Speaker 8: Yeah, Yeah, which is is I think tough for people
• 35:26
  Speaker 8: to get the brain around at times. Right, a lot
• 35:30
  Speaker 8: more comfortable to think in terms of right and wrong.
• 35:33
  Speaker 8: But that especially with like online pulkler and social media,
• 35:38
  Speaker 8: we get so caught up in the idea of right
• 35:40
  Speaker 8: and wrong that if somebody says some like, if somebody
• 35:43
  Speaker 8: puts out an idea that is different than the way
• 35:45
  Speaker 8: I would want to do it, instead of going, oh,
• 35:48
  Speaker 8: well that's how they do it, I'm going to do
• 35:49
  Speaker 8: things my way, the gut response is, well, you're telling
• 35:51
  Speaker 8: me I'm wrong because you're doing differently than me. And
• 35:53
  Speaker 8: if you're right, that means I have to be wrong,
• 35:55
  Speaker 8: and it's like we can we can all kind of
• 35:57
  Speaker 8: be right.
• 35:58
  Speaker 10: There's a thousand ways to do everything exactly.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Done one.
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, fascinating enough, Also, is that the Discordians are using
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: the yin and the young symbol, which are two things
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: that then, you know, in the Daoist culture you have
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: or in Daoism you have Wu, which is the all nothingness,
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: the primordial ooz or chaos that separates into in and
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: yong and from one from nothing to you know, to
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: to the many. And so it's fascinating this how that
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: kind of works to explode into the myriad of many
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: things as then we move ourselves back up towards the
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: all primordial chaos organizational skill. Uh, it's just a fascinating
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: thing to think about as well when you move into
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: the un and the young, which isn't right or wrong obviously,
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: but it has this more young you know, it's two
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: full yin you know, to nothingness. And so these are
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: the things when they spin, right, that's the dynamism of
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: the tyching practice as they are working with the spiral
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: as that when you're doing it, you're creating the all everything,
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: the nuance within the world, so to speak.
• 37:15
  Speaker 8: Absolutely, the primordial chaos of Daoism is actually personified within
• 37:19
  Speaker 8: the percincity of discordia because in Daoism that primordial force
• 37:25
  Speaker 8: is called hung men or Hung Moan, and that name
• 37:29
  Speaker 8: translates to h It's like basically means either primordial miss
• 37:35
  Speaker 8: vast obscurity, or big goose dummy. And in Taoist philosophy,
• 37:42
  Speaker 8: Hung Meng is sort of this character who is very
• 37:45
  Speaker 8: much a trickster, and he's this primordial chaos, but he
• 37:48
  Speaker 8: just sort of pops up every once in a while
• 37:49
  Speaker 8: to shake things up. And in the Principia he is
• 37:52
  Speaker 8: listed as one of the apostles of Rais and he
• 37:55
  Speaker 8: sort of represents Daoism in Eastern thought and personifies the
• 38:00
  Speaker 8: contributions that those philosophies bring into Discordianism.
• 38:05
  Speaker 6: I have somebody asking here double entendres a form of
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: chaos magic.
• 38:11
  Speaker 7: They certainly could be.
• 38:13
  Speaker 10: That one of the double and triples.
• 38:16
  Speaker 9: Yeah, all magicians are word cells, and all magic is words.
• 38:21
  Speaker 9: That is the truth. That is from all the times
• 38:23
  Speaker 9: that like we have spent it doing the show, Like
• 38:27
  Speaker 9: all the people I've interviewed on my show, every single
• 38:30
  Speaker 9: magician left hand path, right hand path, institutional, non institutional
• 38:36
  Speaker 9: in general, they do have a writing practice in a way,
• 38:39
  Speaker 9: and so you must you must admit, like look at
• 38:42
  Speaker 9: Austin Osman spare like maybe the you know, primordial we'll
• 38:46
  Speaker 9: call him primordial Discordian. It's it's poems, it's illustrations, it's
• 38:52
  Speaker 9: mimetic before mimetics was a thing. And so you must
• 38:55
  Speaker 9: admit that the technology for a lot of chaos is
• 38:59
  Speaker 9: the words, right, I mean, but I just want to
• 39:01
  Speaker 9: say that it's It's absolutely true. The magician is the
• 39:04
  Speaker 9: words well of.
• 39:08
  Speaker 8: I think to find out if something is an expression
• 39:12
  Speaker 8: of cast magic, the best way to find out is
• 39:14
  Speaker 8: to try it out. And chast magic is very much
• 39:18
  Speaker 8: learned by doing so. If there is if somebody has
• 39:22
  Speaker 8: an idea of using double entendres and magical practice, do it,
• 39:26
  Speaker 8: see what happens. Like chast magic is all about the
• 39:30
  Speaker 8: f around and find out which you know, it's so
• 39:33
  Speaker 8: many occult disciplines there. You know, there's the idea of
• 39:38
  Speaker 8: of you know, guidelines and warnings and and you know, uh,
• 39:43
  Speaker 8: don't do X because X, you know Y and Z
• 39:46
  Speaker 8: will happen and you will the pendulum will swing back
• 39:49
  Speaker 8: upon you. And in cast magic, it's like, well, I'm
• 39:52
  Speaker 8: going to do it and see what happens. And if
• 39:54
  Speaker 8: it doesn't work the way I want it to, well
• 39:55
  Speaker 8: try something else. You know, belief very much is a tool.
• 40:00
  Speaker 8: And if if I'm going into a magical experiment, I'm
• 40:05
  Speaker 8: not going to go into it believing that if I
• 40:07
  Speaker 8: do this wrong, something bad is going to happen to me.
• 40:10
  Speaker 8: That's that doesn't do me any good. That's a belief
• 40:13
  Speaker 8: I can set aside for a different paradigm and focus
• 40:16
  Speaker 8: on I want.
• 40:17
  Speaker 7: To get results.
• 40:17
  Speaker 8: I'm going into this as objectively as possible to see
• 40:21
  Speaker 8: what happens and what can I do to make it
• 40:22
  Speaker 8: work better next time?
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: If you can too, I mean, I know we uh
• 40:29
  Speaker 6: touched on it, be full of on the practical I mean,
• 40:32
  Speaker 6: I guess, I guess I would say, all it's kind
• 40:35
  Speaker 6: of like hands on with chaos magic, he practical side.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: What would be some practical technique? What would be techniques
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: behind chaos magic?
• 40:43
  Speaker 8: Or I think there really are And I'd say this
• 40:47
  Speaker 8: after just going off on nothing as a binary, there
• 40:50
  Speaker 8: are two really good places to start within chaos magic
• 40:53
  Speaker 8: and those are those are notice in paradigm.
• 40:56
  Speaker 6: Shifting night I was going to ask you about.
• 40:59
  Speaker 8: The paradigm is just basically what can be described as
• 41:05
  Speaker 8: getting into a tan state. It's the mental state necessary
• 41:08
  Speaker 8: to work magic. There are a lot of different ways
• 41:12
  Speaker 8: to do it. There there's excitatory methods where you you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 8: dance around a whole bunch until you're kind of tranced
• 41:18
  Speaker 8: out and then you can make magic. There are inhibitory
• 41:21
  Speaker 8: you know, meditation, quiet meditation, trying to you know, center
• 41:27
  Speaker 8: yourself and be calm and still and get into that
• 41:29
  Speaker 8: state road Hypnosis is a form of nosising is a
• 41:34
  Speaker 8: form of nosis. When you know, like if you've ever
• 41:36
  Speaker 8: back in school, if you were ever writing a paper
• 41:39
  Speaker 8: and daydreaming and then you look down and you're just
• 41:41
  Speaker 8: like doodling on the page, that's a gnostic state. So
• 41:46
  Speaker 8: that's just something to keep in mind as we're trying
• 41:50
  Speaker 8: to practice within a charismatic Chasmatic paradigm is getting into
• 41:55
  Speaker 8: that kind of flow state. Paradigm shifting is basically the
• 42:00
  Speaker 8: ability to change belief.
• 42:02
  Speaker 7: It will the There's a there's.
• 42:06
  Speaker 8: A couple of sayings within chasm magic of belief as
• 42:08
  Speaker 8: a tool, a phrase that pops up a lot, which
• 42:14
  Speaker 8: specifically because of the illumin Host trilogy, nothing is true,
• 42:17
  Speaker 8: everything is permitted, or as it says in the Principiate Discordia,
• 42:20
  Speaker 8: everything is true. Even false things are true. So we
• 42:25
  Speaker 8: get to kind of decide what we believe, and we
• 42:27
  Speaker 8: can believe whatever we need to do to accomplish the
• 42:29
  Speaker 8: work at hand. It I think that sort of trips
• 42:34
  Speaker 8: people up sometimes because they think in terms of like, well, okay,
• 42:39
  Speaker 8: but I'm gonna so I'm gonna worship Greek gods, but
• 42:41
  Speaker 8: then I'm gonna worship Norse gods. But can I worship
• 42:44
  Speaker 8: a Greek and Norse god together? That's not really paradigm shifting.
• 42:47
  Speaker 8: That's just sort of an eclectic approached paganism, you know,
• 42:53
  Speaker 8: a paradigm shift would be okay. I normally tend to
• 42:57
  Speaker 8: think in sort of pantheistic terms, but for the purposes
• 43:01
  Speaker 8: of this working, I'm going to not believe in any gods.
• 43:07
  Speaker 8: I'm going to approach this as an atheist or i
• 43:10
  Speaker 8: approach this as a henotheist, and I'm going to say
• 43:14
  Speaker 8: that Eris is my primary goddess and she is the
• 43:18
  Speaker 8: one who is partant to me, and I'm not going
• 43:19
  Speaker 8: to worry about other gods, whether they exist or not.
• 43:23
  Speaker 8: It's it's those isms set of the paradigm, like how
• 43:27
  Speaker 8: we how we see spirituality as a whole. It doesn't
• 43:31
  Speaker 8: exist yet, Things that haven't been believed, you know, whether
• 43:35
  Speaker 8: it's our values or our perception of the divine, those
• 43:40
  Speaker 8: things kind of shift on their own organically. Paradigm shifting
• 43:44
  Speaker 8: is doing it intentionally, right. The best example that I
• 43:47
  Speaker 8: that I have on hand for for paradigm shifting is there.
• 43:52
  Speaker 8: And this is really because I often get asked, what's
• 43:54
  Speaker 8: the difference between eclectic witchcraft and chaos witchcraft? And in
• 43:58
  Speaker 8: eclectic witchcraft, we are assembling a practice around our beliefs,
• 44:02
  Speaker 8: like we have an idea of what witchcraft is and
• 44:04
  Speaker 8: maybe what God's we want to venerate, and we're going
• 44:06
  Speaker 8: to figure out how to do that. Within chaos witchcraft,
• 44:09
  Speaker 8: we are assembling beliefs around our practice. And the best
• 44:12
  Speaker 8: example I can say I've been able to take up
• 44:14
  Speaker 8: so far is there is an old Irish folk charm
• 44:19
  Speaker 8: that comes from a book called Mystic Charm Irish Charms,
• 44:23
  Speaker 8: Mystic Cures and Superstitions by Lady Jane Wilde.
• 44:25
  Speaker 7: Oscar Wilde's mom.
• 44:26
  Speaker 8: She was a folkworist, so she had collected the spell
• 44:30
  Speaker 8: on how to become invisible, and it was you get
• 44:34
  Speaker 8: the heart of a raven and you cut it open
• 44:37
  Speaker 8: and you put three black beans in it, and then
• 44:39
  Speaker 8: you bury the heart, and then the bean the bean
• 44:42
  Speaker 8: tree grows, and then you take one of the beans
• 44:44
  Speaker 8: and place it under your mouth and you like recite
• 44:47
  Speaker 8: an invocation to Satan and then you can become visible.
• 44:52
  Speaker 8: And so let's if I'm going to go through it right, like,
• 44:55
  Speaker 8: let's say I've decided to try the spell and I
• 44:59
  Speaker 8: just happened to have a raven heart lying around, because
• 45:01
  Speaker 8: of course I do. And you have to have a
• 45:03
  Speaker 8: black handled knife as well. The color black is very important.
• 45:06
  Speaker 8: It all ties in because as well, so blackbird, black knives,
• 45:10
  Speaker 8: black being. I happen to have a raven heart, I've
• 45:14
  Speaker 8: got some black beings. I'm down to do this. And
• 45:17
  Speaker 8: then I get to the invocation to Satan. If I'm
• 45:20
  Speaker 8: coming at it from an eclective point of view, I'm
• 45:22
  Speaker 8: going to go, well, Satan really is a part of
• 45:25
  Speaker 8: my pagan beliefs. So I'm going to start thinking about
• 45:28
  Speaker 8: what gods or goddesses might relate to invisibility and what
• 45:33
  Speaker 8: God and goddesses might relate to vegetation, because this is
• 45:36
  Speaker 8: something growing and is there a connection there? Well, HETEs
• 45:39
  Speaker 8: is sort of about invisibility, and he had that magic
• 45:41
  Speaker 8: helmet that made him invisible and his wife is Persephony
• 45:43
  Speaker 8: and choose the goddess of vegetation. So I can rewrite
• 45:46
  Speaker 8: the invocation to Hades and Persephony and it'll probably work
• 45:50
  Speaker 8: because like I'm doing everything else correctly, so this it
• 45:53
  Speaker 8: would just be easier to worship Satan for five seconds.
• 46:00
  Speaker 8: Like I'm gonna do my little location to Satan. I'm
• 46:03
  Speaker 8: gonna pop the Bible in my mouth. If I turn invisible, noted.
• 46:06
  Speaker 8: If I don't turn invisible, then maybe I'll try it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 8: With's taking gods and seeing I love it, and that's
• 46:14
  Speaker 8: that's for me. That's the big difference. That's assembling the
• 46:16
  Speaker 8: belief around the practice.
• 46:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, did any of you guys have any
• 46:23
  Speaker 6: more Did any of you guys have any more questions
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: on maybe on the paradigm shift.
• 46:26
  Speaker 7: I want to jump over.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: Decisions, so in case anybody have something on that or
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: any other questions.
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: Do you think that you need an actual paradigm to
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: be able to.
• 46:34
  Speaker 7: Make it a shift?
• 46:36
  Speaker 8: H That's a good question, and I uh, I think
• 46:41
  Speaker 8: the term paradigm is fairly broad. I think just actually
• 46:46
  Speaker 8: I'm gonna go back to the principia because within the
• 46:49
  Speaker 8: Principitouscordia culture is defined as a group of people who
• 46:53
  Speaker 8: are looking through the world, looking at the world through
• 46:55
  Speaker 8: a particular grid. Each culture has their own grid. And
• 46:59
  Speaker 8: if we don't necessarily have a belief system to shift
• 47:03
  Speaker 8: into or out of, we can still shift our perception.
• 47:06
  Speaker 8: We can still look at things the way someone else
• 47:09
  Speaker 8: might look at it, and that would still count as
• 47:11
  Speaker 8: a shift.
• 47:12
  Speaker 10: Well. And Robert d'antowen Wilson, he specifically talks about this
• 47:16
  Speaker 10: in regard to the mind tunnels.
• 47:20
  Speaker 8: Yeah, reality tunnels, reality tunnels.
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so and so we're trying to always
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: talk about the concrete reality, the objective truth, but in
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: doing so, our language is adding different levels of abstractions.
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: And he has it as a pyramidal structure going all
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: the way up to the general abstraction of whatever truth
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: or freedom or these things are.
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: But it's reports of reports, and through.
• 47:47
  Speaker 5: Our changing of paradigm, we change our understanding of the
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: actual concrete truth in and of itself, which is there.
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: Because without that we can't have or talk about anything
• 48:00
  Speaker 5: that's right.
• 48:00
  Speaker 10: That's very platonic in nat very.
• 48:03
  Speaker 8: Patonic, and I'm a platonist, So there's that I randomly
• 48:07
  Speaker 8: have an anecdote that ties into what you're saying about
• 48:09
  Speaker 8: the about perception we've been talking about Robert ATW.
• 48:13
  Speaker 7: Wilson and the Illuminatus Trilogy.
• 48:15
  Speaker 8: It was turned into a nine hour stage play directed
• 48:19
  Speaker 8: by and productions of it happened and it was directed
• 48:22
  Speaker 8: by a guy named Ken Campbell, and one night during
• 48:25
  Speaker 8: a performance backstage, he and his wife conceived the daughter,
• 48:29
  Speaker 8: and uh, her name, her name was Daisy, Daisy Aris
• 48:33
  Speaker 8: Campbell was her full name. They named her after Aarics
• 48:36
  Speaker 8: And she grew up to be sort of a free
• 48:38
  Speaker 8: spirit and a performer and a libertine. And one day
• 48:42
  Speaker 8: some her family got together and said, hey, Daisy, uh,
• 48:46
  Speaker 8: we're gonna we need to go file a police report,
• 48:49
  Speaker 8: and uh, you're the only You're the only reliable.
• 48:52
  Speaker 7: Witness we have. Will you come with us?
• 48:53
  Speaker 8: And she said okay, sure, and they get in the
• 48:55
  Speaker 8: car and it turns out they were like, surprise, we're
• 48:59
  Speaker 8: not going to go give a statement. We're having you institutionalized.
• 49:02
  Speaker 8: We just needed to get you in more. And she
• 49:04
  Speaker 8: threw a fit and she was like, I am not
• 49:06
  Speaker 8: I am not insane. I do not need to be institutionalized.
• 49:08
  Speaker 8: All I need right now is a copy of Soap
• 49:10
  Speaker 8: Opera Digest. And she threw this huge fit about Soap
• 49:13
  Speaker 8: Opera Digest, so big that they pulled over, and she
• 49:16
  Speaker 8: stormed into a convenience store and bought a copy of
• 49:18
  Speaker 8: Soap Opera Digests and she tore it open and the
• 49:21
  Speaker 8: article she turned to the headline was Daisy Goes Crazy
• 49:25
  Speaker 8: and so the most magazine. And she got back in
• 49:27
  Speaker 8: the car and she said, I'd like to institutional.
• 49:29
  Speaker 10: Lifestyle please synchronicities.
• 49:32
  Speaker 8: Yeah, and that is my favorite discordant story at all time.
• 49:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, all right, so, uh sigils?
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Is that like a big Is that a big part
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: of your chaos magic?
• 49:48
  Speaker 8: The way it is, the way I do them is
• 49:50
  Speaker 8: differently than a lot of people do them. I think
• 49:53
  Speaker 8: sigils the modern concept of sigils is really comes from
• 49:59
  Speaker 8: often husband Spaar's work filtered through an early cast magician
• 50:03
  Speaker 8: named Gray Sherwin, and has now within modern occult spaces
• 50:09
  Speaker 8: been very crystallized. Like you write out your intent and
• 50:12
  Speaker 8: you cross out the letters and you put the letters
• 50:14
  Speaker 8: into a pattern and you create a sigil. And a
• 50:17
  Speaker 8: lot of people think that is how you make sigels.
• 50:20
  Speaker 8: That is one way of making sigils. The way I
• 50:24
  Speaker 8: make them, and I talk about this in the book,
• 50:26
  Speaker 8: is almost sort of automatic writing, where I sort of
• 50:30
  Speaker 8: get a story going in my head of what I
• 50:31
  Speaker 8: want to see happen, of the reality that I that
• 50:33
  Speaker 8: I want to perceive, that I want to experience, and
• 50:36
  Speaker 8: then I just sort of without looking at the paper,
• 50:40
  Speaker 8: just let my hand kind of holding the pen do
• 50:41
  Speaker 8: whatever it wants, and when the story comes to a
• 50:44
  Speaker 8: close in my head, then I have my sgul that
• 50:46
  Speaker 8: I can do whatever I want with. I do think
• 50:49
  Speaker 8: sigils are very efficient.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: They are.
• 50:55
  Speaker 7: They are a good way of.
• 50:59
  Speaker 8: Kind of getting into that gnostic state, especially in the
• 51:02
  Speaker 8: inhibitory way of you know, whether it's you know, just
• 51:07
  Speaker 8: drawing a doodle or whether it's breaking down letters and
• 51:09
  Speaker 8: rearranging them to create a shape. All those help us
• 51:12
  Speaker 8: get into that gnostic state and then we Yeah, I
• 51:16
  Speaker 8: think I think they are very convenient. I think they're
• 51:18
  Speaker 8: very efficient. But I will I will die on the hill.
• 51:22
  Speaker 8: There is an infinite variety of ways to make ways
• 51:24
  Speaker 8: to make them.
• 51:28
  Speaker 5: Don't you think that there are better ways than other ways?
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Though or not?
• 51:33
  Speaker 7: I think there are.
• 51:37
  Speaker 8: I think the right way to make sigils is always
• 51:39
  Speaker 8: going to be individual because the way I make sigils
• 51:42
  Speaker 8: may not, you know, may not work for somebody else.
• 51:45
  Speaker 8: A friend of mine made amazing sigils using the kind
• 51:47
  Speaker 8: of standard write the letters out that worked so well
• 51:51
  Speaker 8: for her that never worked quite as well for me.
• 51:54
  Speaker 8: The doodling method gets meet great results. I really I
• 51:58
  Speaker 8: think that the when it comes to just witchcraft or
• 52:00
  Speaker 8: magic in general, I don't think there's ever a right
• 52:03
  Speaker 8: or wrong. I do think there's inefficient. And if we
• 52:09
  Speaker 8: with sigils, if we get it in our heads that
• 52:11
  Speaker 8: there's only this very specific way to do it and
• 52:13
  Speaker 8: we have to do it that way, whether it works
• 52:15
  Speaker 8: for us or not, that's inefficient.
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 52:20
  Speaker 8: Finding a better way for us individually is always going
• 52:22
  Speaker 8: to work better.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:23
  Speaker 10: And I think as an artist, when you're creating a
• 52:27
  Speaker 10: creation process of manufacturing whatever your perceived reality is, and
• 52:34
  Speaker 10: if you break it down to a formulae or make
• 52:37
  Speaker 10: it formulaic, it kind of loses spontity in the natural
• 52:43
  Speaker 10: energy of creativity. So I think that that variety of
• 52:49
  Speaker 10: you know, possibility, leaves kind of the embers to grow
• 52:53
  Speaker 10: over the arder.
• 52:55
  Speaker 7: I don't think.
• 52:55
  Speaker 8: I don't think having a framework is ever a bad
• 52:57
  Speaker 8: idea of likes something that I know works for me.
• 53:00
  Speaker 8: So I'm gonna stick within that framework because i know
• 53:02
  Speaker 8: I get results. But I'm never going to be afraid
• 53:06
  Speaker 8: to experiment within that framework, right right, you know, And
• 53:12
  Speaker 8: that's how our practices can get very very specialized but
• 53:16
  Speaker 8: very uniquely tailor does where they may not look anything else,
• 53:19
  Speaker 8: but if I'm getting results, I'm not gonna worry about.
• 53:21
  Speaker 10: That, right And and with money art form the craft,
• 53:25
  Speaker 10: you're essentially learning your pool and then you learn the
• 53:28
  Speaker 10: nuance elements of how to you know, slightly manipulated them
• 53:34
  Speaker 10: to get more exact, you know, servitude out of them.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, now there's you have some other things you
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: hit that from that interesting.
• 53:43
  Speaker 6: Moon water and uh, I mean you got classic practices moonwater,
• 53:48
  Speaker 6: cord coting and anointing.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: What does chaos and discording and framing adds to these basics.
• 53:54
  Speaker 8: So with moonwater specifically, moonwater is something that for some
• 54:00
  Speaker 8: reason like gets under my skin when and I think
• 54:03
  Speaker 8: that the moonwater craze seems to have died down in
• 54:06
  Speaker 8: online spaces, but for a while, like you know, you know, hey, witches,
• 54:12
  Speaker 8: who's making moon water? Tonight and like you're putting water
• 54:16
  Speaker 8: in the jar and the moon controls the tides. Water
• 54:20
  Speaker 8: is all. We don't have to make the water more moonish, right,
• 54:23
  Speaker 8: Like that used to just make me crazy, so but
• 54:28
  Speaker 8: people were also really stressing out about it, like, you know,
• 54:32
  Speaker 8: did I did I make my moonwater correctly? Moon water incorrectly?
• 54:37
  Speaker 8: So I wanted to give some ideas of like variations
• 54:41
  Speaker 8: of just putting water on the windowsill at night and
• 54:45
  Speaker 8: getting into the idea of willow water and you know,
• 54:48
  Speaker 8: of soaking water, willow clicks and water, because the main ingredient,
• 54:53
  Speaker 8: which is an old help tonic and is you know,
• 54:56
  Speaker 8: farmers will pour willow water into the roots of plants
• 54:59
  Speaker 8: and the bill is a tree that's sort of ruled
• 55:01
  Speaker 8: by the moon. But it's the ingredients in willow that
• 55:06
  Speaker 8: make it use make it useful as like a topical anesthetic.
• 55:12
  Speaker 8: Are the same are process to make aspirin?
• 55:15
  Speaker 10: Yes?
• 55:16
  Speaker 8: So I was like, if you really want like useful
• 55:18
  Speaker 8: moon water, My whole thing was like, get an aspirin.
• 55:21
  Speaker 8: It's a little little, tiny moon And if you've got
• 55:24
  Speaker 8: a tiny little pan, you can carve a tiny little
• 55:26
  Speaker 8: sigil on your aspirin and dissolve that water. You have
• 55:29
  Speaker 8: just made willow water, which is a traditional lunar water.
• 55:34
  Speaker 8: I wanted people to think outside the box in that
• 55:36
  Speaker 8: respect and not get so caught up in the idea
• 55:39
  Speaker 8: of right and wrong over something so simple as putting
• 55:44
  Speaker 8: water in.
• 55:44
  Speaker 7: A jar on the window.
• 55:46
  Speaker 10: And interestingly, as far as the whole willow thing within
• 55:49
  Speaker 10: the towel mood, they talk about not planting a willow
• 55:53
  Speaker 10: tree next to a well because the roots were going
• 55:56
  Speaker 10: into the well and by drinking that water on a
• 55:59
  Speaker 10: regular basis, it'll actually pull the energy.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Out of you.
• 56:03
  Speaker 8: That makes sense absolutely, that that numbing quality of the willow.
• 56:11
  Speaker 8: But so that's like with the with the moon water.
• 56:13
  Speaker 8: That was kind of my take on it, of like,
• 56:15
  Speaker 8: we don't have to get stressed out about this, and
• 56:17
  Speaker 8: we can do it, and we can find other efficient
• 56:19
  Speaker 8: ways to do it. With cord cutting people that that's
• 56:25
  Speaker 8: another thing where people get really caught up in the
• 56:27
  Speaker 8: cord cutting spells and the elaborate tying the you know,
• 56:31
  Speaker 8: the piece of thread to the two candles, and you
• 56:33
  Speaker 8: like candles, and then you watch the cord burn and
• 56:36
  Speaker 8: it's a terrible fire hazard.
• 56:38
  Speaker 7: But it's also not.
• 56:38
  Speaker 8: Ancient traditional witchcraft, Like the way people are doing it
• 56:42
  Speaker 8: now comes from the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina season three.
• 56:46
  Speaker 8: I think where does this spell? And it got well
• 56:50
  Speaker 8: pop culture has always had an, you know, an impact
• 56:52
  Speaker 8: on the occulture, and so after that episode came out,
• 56:56
  Speaker 8: suddenly all these people were casting cord cutting spells and
• 56:59
  Speaker 8: with in a couple of years. People did not realize
• 57:01
  Speaker 8: where it had come from. And we're stressing out about
• 57:05
  Speaker 8: it because the way people were doing it with the
• 57:06
  Speaker 8: two candles and the thread is more divinatory than anything else, Like,
• 57:12
  Speaker 8: how are these two people connected, which one is having
• 57:14
  Speaker 8: more influence over the other? Is this a healthy relationship?
• 57:18
  Speaker 8: Is this the you know? Did I just burn my
• 57:21
  Speaker 8: house down? Like? There's a lot of questions to be
• 57:23
  Speaker 8: answered with that. So my take on cord cutting was, well,
• 57:28
  Speaker 8: you know, light the candle, if you want to do
• 57:30
  Speaker 8: the chords, that's great. Cut the cord yourself, get scissors.
• 57:33
  Speaker 8: You imposed your will on the situation. Don't leave it
• 57:36
  Speaker 8: up to chance, you know. And then I followed it
• 57:39
  Speaker 8: up with and don't post the results on the internet
• 57:41
  Speaker 8: because of your cord nobody. You don't need to get
• 57:45
  Speaker 8: on Instagram to tell everybody you're doing it because you
• 57:47
  Speaker 8: have just reinforced the cords, you know. I was like,
• 57:52
  Speaker 8: I like, randomly, when I was writing that particular second,
• 57:55
  Speaker 8: I kind of like went off on this whole thing
• 57:56
  Speaker 8: about block your exes. Like I was, just like, you've
• 58:00
  Speaker 8: got if you're going to do the spell to cut
• 58:02
  Speaker 8: people out, you have to cut them out too. You
• 58:04
  Speaker 8: have to do the work in the real world to
• 58:06
  Speaker 8: bolster you know, cutting the string between your candles.
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: When you do said spells or rituals or anything in
• 58:15
  Speaker 5: that magical realm, say, for instance, even though to me
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: it sounds kind of ridiculous, but like you want to
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: find a new girlfriend that's going to resonate with you,
• 58:25
  Speaker 5: or a new boyfriend or a new partner or whatever,
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: or whatever it is that you know that people do
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: if you want to find love. Right, And what he
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: states is, yes, do your ritual, do your magic, do
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: your thing, but realize that you're not actually doing it
• 58:38
  Speaker 5: to manifest a person out there in the world. What
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: you're doing it is to vibrate your nervous system to
• 58:44
  Speaker 5: change you alchemically, so you can magnetize and rise to
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: the frequency of the individual that's already out there in
• 58:51
  Speaker 5: the world. So you can then it like rearranges the discord,
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: the chaos, if the of the universe into a chance
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: happenstance that all of a sudden you can become the
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: person that you're trying to attract, right, And I think
• 59:06
  Speaker 5: that's kind of similar to something that you were stating
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: at the very end, which I think is very important
• 59:10
  Speaker 5: and also grounds the whole work and understanding that you're
• 59:14
  Speaker 5: not actually manipulating like other people, which I think is
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: something that is awful to do. You want to make
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: sure you're only ever manipulating your own nervous system. And
• 59:26
  Speaker 5: this goes back to Robert Anton Wilson talking about where
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: his one of his people was Timothy Leary. And even
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: though Timothy Leary in the conspiracy world they want to
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: throw a lot of shade on him, if they were
• 59:37
  Speaker 5: to read his work like the Eight Circuits of Consciousness,
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: the bio saying, you know, what they would understand is
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: that he had two laws and the first one was
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: you know, one of them was don't change without their
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: knowing anybody else's consciousness, which I think is really important,
• 59:53
  Speaker 5: especially because he was doing work on LSD for Harvard
• 59:57
  Speaker 5: at that time. You know what I mean, and so
• 59:59
  Speaker 5: it's like, I think it's it's important talk when it
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 5: comes to chaos magic in and of itself, because it
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 5: gets a little chaotic.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 9: I'm actually going to follow you up round in, but
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 9: not correct you this time, because I actually I actually
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 9: agree with you. I think that it is I think
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 9: the idea of a causality in magic is actually really important,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 9: and I think that people should actually consider. I know
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 9: that you said to thump her about like imposing your
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 9: well for cord cutting, and I'm not against that, but
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 9: I also think, like how much do you want to
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 9: implicate yourself? You know, Like we have an rass figure
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 9: in I'm a Vagoriana Buddhist, so for me, we have
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 9: an Airas figure in dharma. Her name is Eka Jatti.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 9: I've spoken about her many times on the show and
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 9: on my show, and you know she's she's the goddess
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 9: of mamos, which is the Tibetan word for chaos. So
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 9: they're very similar. I'm not saying they're exactly the same,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 9: but they have they have an overlap, we'll say. And
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 9: so I like to look at if for my own practices,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 9: I try and be a causal Now I understand, like
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 9: I am a sorcerer also, so I get that it's
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 9: never going to be one hundred percent perfect, and I
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 9: recognize and accept that. But I try, and I think
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 9: that it is about view like that's how we would
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 9: say in like a Buddhist sorcery way, It's about like
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 9: how you view it. Do you cultivate bodichiita? Do you
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 9: like do all these preliminary things that would be a
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 9: way to make like your sorcery a causal. So I try.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 9: I do think what Brandon is saying is important because
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 9: I think that people should not want to implicate their
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 9: karma so deeply in an whether you agree with my framing,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 9: not you Thumber, but just anyone listening broadly if they
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 9: agree with my a and of the daughter framework or not,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 9: or they still think we're in Caliyuga, which the contrast
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 9: say we're not. So I don't think we are. So
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 9: I just sim I'm saying that do you want to
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 9: be stuck in the degraded a on? I personally don't.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 9: I want to move forward with the aon. That's just me.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 9: So I think that this idea of like a cause
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 9: out and looking to lighten your karmic load. Maybe you
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 9: could say is actually important to think about. Just think about,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 9: just as an idea.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: Got nice, nice gin, I can be.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 9: Good to you. I'm not just leftime path and evil.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 7: I know you can.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: I know, and I see within your eyes that I've
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: never truly saw.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 8: I do like the idea of a causality, and I
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 8: do think one thing that tripped a lot of modern
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 8: practitioners is kind of fear of consequence. And you know,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 8: if I, if I do something, you know, people are
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 8: and it's it's where people get caught up in either
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 8: a lot well today people get caught up in like
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 8: bashing the idea of the threefold law, you know, and
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 8: that's wicked and that's silly. And then somebody people mention
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 8: a love spell and they be like, oh no, if
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 8: you cast a love spell, that will rebound back upon
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 8: you somewhere between two and four times. Right Like, they're
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 8: still caught up in that idea of the content sequence.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 8: But all actions have consequence. Consequence is not necessarily a
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 8: bad thing, right Like if I if I write a
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 8: glowing five star review for a friend's book and that
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 8: results in the book selling better, that's a good consequence. Right,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 8: Like it's like I still still my actions. It's just
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 8: the consequence worked out well for everyone. Consequences don't have
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 8: to be negative. And we also and we don't have
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 8: to always be worried about, you know, how much damage
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 8: are we doing. We can also just kind of think
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 8: in terms of, you know, how can I how can
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 8: I make things work out for not only myself but
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 8: for the people around me? You know, how can I
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 8: have these things where I'm causing the least amount of
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 8: collateral collateral damage while still getting the results I want?
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's something to think about.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: Also how important especially in the magical world, but not
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: even that, just everyday life. There are there is a
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: real dichotomy between harm and dissonance, and we hear it
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: in music and it is two opposite polls of That's
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: why sacred geometry works. That's why the music of the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 5: Spheares was talking about with the Pythagorian cults and how
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: we could create music itself, you kind of these things,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 5: you know, and so it's like that would be something
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: to think about when we're trying to understand while it's
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 5: you know, it's the least possible consequence, but at the
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: same time, it's like, can we also try to make
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: it so consequence is harmonious with things, because when it's dissonant,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 5: that's when karma, we could say, is produced because we're
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: kind of going against the flow. Or in Crolly's words
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 5: of the AA, it's that every man and every woman
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 5: is a star. And so when he's talking about that,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: what that means is that we are all in the
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 5: universe as stars moving perfectly with the harmony of the spheres.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: And it's when my interpretation is that when we move
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 5: through the world in a dissonance state, that's when all
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: of a sudden stars collide. And we could use moral
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: ambiguous terms, which I think is really important. But you know,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: because this is like, well that just happens in the universe, Well,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 5: it's like, well, then look, can we also understand that
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 5: that has its own levels of chaotic dissonant reflections through
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: the cause effect making machine of the universe. These things
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 5: I ponder continuously.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: What managed to I guess you over time, results of revelations.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 8: You know, both are important because I still like getting results,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 8: But revelation and understanding has become the older I get,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 8: the more important that gets you know I think fifteen. No,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 8: if you had ask me that, I would say, I
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 8: don't have to understand something for it to work, and
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 8: I would be more caught up in the in the
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 8: work itself. Today, what I find so fascinating, especially about
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 8: the cult, is like the more is learning more about
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 8: the history and the connections and and you know where
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 8: ideas came from, and how new ideas connect to old ideas,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 8: and the uh one of the biggest I think I
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 8: mentioned this in the book towards the end, but as
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 8: an example, several years ago, I was introduced to listenmancy
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 8: listmantic divination, divination with stones, and it was sort of
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 8: pitched to me as like, this is like ancient witchcraft.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 8: This is you know, the the ancient seers of Greece
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 8: and Rome would cast the pebbles and see the future.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 7: And I was I.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 8: Started looking into it, and I started experimenting with it,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 8: and it worked really well for me, and the more
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 8: I Dug and Doug and Doug, cause I was like,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 8: but I want to find the source of this, Like
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 8: what documents do we have that ancient Greeks and Romans
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 8: were throwing were casting the pebbles? And I was able
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 8: to trace the history of modern litzmancy all the way
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 8: back to nineteen seventy eight and a book on Witchcraft
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 8: for Tomorrow by Duren Valiante where she has a section
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 8: on listomancy and the practice of listmancy continued, but nobody
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 8: remembered to write down where they found it. So today
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 8: when you pick up a book on lismancy, it is
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 8: the origin of the Listhmantic divination are shrouded in history,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 8: and no they're not. They're shrouded in nineteen seventy eight.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 8: But on the one hand, I get results from them,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 8: so it doesn't matter that they come from the seventies
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 8: instead of you know, antiquity. But I also find it
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 8: so fascinating that they came from nineteen seventy eight and
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 8: that this one witch in England figured this out on
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 8: our own and created a system that could be replicated,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 8: And that history is more interesting to me whether than
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 8: if it had been well, this is how an ancient
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 8: Greek was doing, like the learning problems of it. Of wow,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 8: this which in the seventies just invented this. That's amazing.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 8: That revelation is cooler to be than anything else.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 9: I want to respond to that really quick, because I
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 9: find that really interesting also that you said from nineteen
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 9: seventy eight, simply because this is true for a lot
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 9: of modern magic. It does seem to be true for
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 9: a lot of modern magic. It seems to be a
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 9: lot of recreation, like not just not just not just
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 9: from the you know, the New Age, like nineteen se
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 9: I'm not putting it down because some of that stuff
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 9: does work, and I think that you're very very prescient
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 9: that you say that that you can get results from it,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 9: because you can because it is based on older ideas,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 9: but we don't even know what those ideas are. Which
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 9: is sometimes my issue with some of the institutional formations
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 9: of magic is that they will pretend I call it
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 9: the Great Wewiz King's Larp. I'm sorry, I'm not trying
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 9: to find anyone, but I thought it is what I
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 9: call it. You know, they they tend to project themselves
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 9: into the antiquity. We don't know what the fuck they
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 9: were practicing, just to speak really plainly, and so it's
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 9: really difficult to then be like, Okay, this is what
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 9: we're going to do in twenty twenty six, just like
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 9: these quote unquote ancient Wei was kinges, Well, we can't
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 9: do that, so we have to actually use what is pragmatic,
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 9: what actually worked, and if it comes from a during
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 9: val Ante book, so be it. What's the big deal?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 10: And it's just a matter of each individual finding these
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 10: necessary tools to be able to draw out, you know,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 10: and make these things workable.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm gonna say I like what everything Buddy's saying,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 5: because there is something definitely beautiful about the idea that
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 5: everything stems from the human nervous system body mind, sysogy,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 5: you know. So it's like, of course we're going to
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 5: be able to tap into these things if we have
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 5: the right passion, madness and different things like that. But
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: what's really important I think also why it's like, not
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: all things are magic. I believe in magic and all things,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: but not all things are magic, and so it seems
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: to be a contradiction, but it's not. Because if you
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 5: want to hammer and nail, it's the best thing to
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 5: use as a hammer. You can use your shoe. It
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: just might take longer. And so there's something really interesting
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 5: with that. It's like there are structoral systems that can
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: be used by individual practitioners, and we may not know
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 5: exactly how that came through time. But what I'm coming
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 5: to understand more is that if we can use the
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: term philosophy, right, the philosophia this thing where you can
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: learn how to critically think, how to analyze, and how
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: to break things down in a structoral that love of wisdom,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: break it down in a way, you know, then we
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 5: can Actually that's how magic works, right, is that you
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 5: have a science and art of causing change with your will.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 5: Even though it's like a massively hated definition, especially by
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 5: those who are who have stemmed them through the different
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 5: institutions and organizations like the Golden Dawn, these things like that.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 5: They want to go away from things like that. But
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: it's like, if we can find the science of it,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 5: and you know, and I don't mean this functional mechanistic science,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: but that philosophia, that love of wisdom, that ability to
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 5: put yourself into a state of ecstasy. That's why another
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: Crowley book or thing that he wrote was The The
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 5: Enthusiastic Ecstasy, right this and that's you know done, yeah exactly,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: that's done through either your divine dance or the harmony
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 5: of the spheres for the Apollo. That's how you can
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: break it into the Apollonian, the Dionesian. But there is
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 5: something that you can do to gain the best results,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 5: and it's not everything. So it's like there's a it's
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: a fine line if that, if any of that makes sense.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 8: That was one thing that for me was very refreshing
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 8: about both discordyanisment chaos magic is that neither system makes
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 8: any bones about being ancient. And you know, the pioneers
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 8: of chaos magic, we're taking structural systems and reworking them
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 8: to try to make them more efficient. Discordianism took this
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 8: one myth from Greek mythology and built something entirely new
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 8: out of it, and they were very open about that.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 8: And you know, throughout the history of occultism, I think
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 8: it really started picking up steam with the rights of theosophy.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 8: But even pre theosophy, you know, the guy in the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 8: late seventeen hundreds who started using tarot cards for divination
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 8: didn't say, hey, guys, look what I can do.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 7: He said, oh, this comes to us from ancient Egypt.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 10: And it was like, no, it was.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 8: An Anglican priest in seventeen ninety nine, the Key of Almen,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 8: it was. It was the fifteen hundreds, but not much
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 8: further back than that, but even back then it was
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 8: this idea, but this is ancient, which means it's real
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 8: and valid, and well it doesn't right.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 10: I was gonna say the Bohemian Taro that is by Pappus,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 10: it claims to be the most ancient book in the world,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 10: and you know, so, yeah, you consist, but this is
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 10: something you consistently need to get it like the templars
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 10: you know later on claiming lineage or the resecrutions even
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 10: claiming lineage, and it just adds. It's this power multiplier.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 10: It's a way to excite the nervous system in a
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 10: way that you're participating with something that echoes back into
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 10: the dawn of you know, human thinking in the mind
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 10: and and who we are as a species.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah, and theosophy really introduced that utopian idea that before,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 8: you know, before all this modern stuff was going on
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 8: human and that's what it's. Modern cultures, without realizing that
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 8: are still thinking in terms of ancient utopia, when if
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 8: we transported them back to that time very quickly, they'd
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 8: be like, this is not a utopia, this is not.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 8: But we do have that sort of idealism about accultism
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 8: a lot of times, and that needs me in order
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 8: to be valid.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 8: One of the big one thing I hear a lot
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 8: about in social media when people are complaining about Wika
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 8: it's new, but rich Craft is old, and I'm like, well,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 8: all your witch coming from the same sources that Wika did.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 8: You're just you're, yeah, you're you're you're promoting this ancient
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 8: witch cult idea that you are also saying has been discredited,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 8: and yet you are still wanting us to believe it.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And that's just That's exactly what Francis Dame
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 5: Yeats was wrote about in her Hermitica Traditions with Geodorno
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 5: Bruno is that there's this great argument that thoth Hermes
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 5: the thrice Great was this ancient, ancient you know, and
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 5: her Meticism is this ancient, ancient, ancient thing from thousand
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 5: two thousand DC, when really it actually was the syncretic
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 5: integration of Platonism, Neoplatonism, Stoicism, and their philosophies had actually
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 5: reached a point where they couldn't They were like, we
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 5: don't know what else to do, and then all of
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 5: a sudden they integrate all these ritual and the different things,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 5: and all of a sudden they come up with her
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: Meticism when you know, even though you know, integrating the
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 5: Gnostic texts as well and the Emerald tablets that were
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 5: you know, before them, but it's a fastcame. It's just
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 5: a sac same thing of like, oh, Hermes the Thrice,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 5: you know, that whole thing.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 10: Yeah, And interestingly with Hermes, you know, from t Hoodie
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 10: to Thaw to Hermes the Mercury, it's always been kind
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 10: of related to the idea of it's the conscious brain
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 10: of society as a whole, and all of these scientific
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 10: works are kind of the the process of humanity kind
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 10: of bringing forth these ideas as the mind of the divine.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, nice, and I will I do want the
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 5: audience to know there is such thing as the Tholth cult,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 5: there is such thing as the Hermes cult. There was
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: and there are the theogia, right, the divine workings of
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: ancient Egyptian and the orphic mysteries and the Pythagorene mysteries
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 5: that stem through and you can see it written in
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 5: Plato's works. And so it's not that those things weren't happening,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 5: it's that the Hermetic tradition is in thousands of years old,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 5: but it's a syncretized understanding of those things, similar to
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 5: what you're talking about, Thumper, with witchcraft and wiganism. It
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: is that amalgamation of things, and now we have a
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 5: new label for it. So for the modern thinker to think,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 5: then it's.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 8: Ancient, yeah, absolutely, and modern witchcraft it's it's I'm far
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 8: too old to be on TikTok, but they let me
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 8: on anyway. But that's one thing that I put a
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 8: lot of effort into pointing out the origins of current
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 8: witchcraft trends and ideas, because a lot of what people
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 8: present as traditional witchcraft is an amalgamation of WICCA, chaos
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 8: magic and who do. Because in the late two thousands
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 8: there was this big online thing where the movie The
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 8: Skeleton Key came out in two thousand and six, a
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 8: bunch of pagans Google who Do, found an online correspondence course,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 8: appropriated a whole bunch of it. Again, did not write
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 8: down their sources. So ten years later everybody was like,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 8: this is ancient traditional witchcraft, and I'm like, that's a
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 8: sour jar from nineteen thirty nine. That is not ancient
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 8: traditional witchcraft. That is African American folk magic, right. White
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 8: people set it down right, but people don't. People don't
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 8: know the history, and there's sort of this collective amnesia
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 8: around it at times where painting and evolving, which is great,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 8: but it would help to know where it comes from,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 8: so we're not always so we're not always claiming that
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 8: it is ten thousand years old.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 9: I want to respond to that as like someone who
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 9: has well, like Nick and I have done shows on
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 9: like different afrosyncritic traditions. Okayeah, we did a long form
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 9: series on that, and I'm regretting his name now de
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 9: Lawrence Company. Laurence Company published from Chicago, So I'm quite
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 9: familiar with the who doo sort of methodology and like
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 9: the history. I think that's a really great point you
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 9: brought up how there was an infusion especially in that
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 9: like the Catherine Ironwood like all her you know, all
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 9: her books, and her book is really good, like her book,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 9: her her book. I'm not saying it's like better than
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 9: any her book in twenty twenty six, but I was
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 9: saying that I would personally still I mean, I still
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 9: own it and I still think it's one of my
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 9: best her books. So I'm just saying, like you want,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 9: like some real real shit. It's it's good. And I
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 9: also think that I think it was even before. I
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 9: think it was like the Hermann Slater like the kind
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 9: of like the oil making that kind of like New
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 9: York chaos, magic, leftime path, like Oto crowd. I think
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 9: that they were also like very much informed by like
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 9: the kind of like card readers of the Bronx and
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 9: the Botanica culture of like I guess it's Brooklyn, but
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 9: like Harlem and like all all of those kinds of things.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 9: Like I think that magic and I've said this so
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 9: many times, so I apologize, But you know, magic works
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 9: better together because gnosis and knowledge worked better together because
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 9: only in synthesis can you actually understand the contour of
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 9: the truth. So like what actually works, That's what I think.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 9: Oh, hold up, hold, I was second thought. I had
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 9: you read it again.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 8: About the background place. No, I absolutely agree with you,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 8: and I think that what especially when you mentioned Herman Slater, right,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 8: he was the owner of what was originally called the
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 8: Warlock Shop and then eventually became Magical Child. This this
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 8: kind of iconic a cult shop in New York and
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 8: he was putting out he was you know, he had
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 8: a publishing arm and was putting out books on how
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 8: to make magical oils that was very influenced by.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 7: A lot of.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 8: By the folk magic of marginalized groups who were also
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 8: shopping at Magical Child. And the same thing with the
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 8: store in my area that the first time I went there,
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 8: I was expecting kind of a new age bookstore, and
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 8: I walked into what appeared to be a Yarborea and
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 8: I was like, this feels a little weird and appropriate
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 8: of why are we, you know, keeping all the neat
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 8: high end new Age astrology books next to all the
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 8: Africa Arabean religious products. And I just mentioned something in
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 8: passing to the owner and she was like, oh, well,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 8: we have all these customers coming in who practice these
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 8: religions and they don't want to have to drive all
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 8: the way across town to the Mojo store on the
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 8: other side of downtown, so they asked me to start
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 8: carrying it. So you know that, I think something very
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 8: similar happened in New York, where Slater was carrying products
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 8: and manufacturing products for a specific customer base, which in
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 8: itself is kind of syncretic. What happened with Lucky Mojo
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 8: was that when the pagan community discovered this online who
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 8: Do resource, there was an idea at the time that
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 8: anything magical was pagan, that if that Christians could not
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 8: practice magic, that you couldn't be Christian and believe in magic.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 8: So these Pagans were sort of flooding into these online
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 8: spaces that were designed for who Do and for African
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 8: American root work, and we're asking things like, well, how
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 8: do you reconcile this Christianity with your pagan beliefs? And
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 8: the roots were like, well, we're not pagan. And the
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 8: Pagans got this idea of like we must save the
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 8: magic from the Christians, right, And they also didn't really
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 8: want to follow rules, so they didn't want to be
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 8: you know, we're witches. Nobody tells us what to do.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 8: So they were you know, like signing up for the
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 8: Lucky Mojor course, getting the textbook and plagiarizing it, or
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 8: getting the textbook, bailing from the course and setting up
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 8: a website announcing themselves as a spiritual worker. And I
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 8: was like, huh, funny, last week you were a high
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 8: priestess Evanana and now you're a spiritual worker. Interesting, but
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 8: that's where you know. Today we hear a lot about
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 8: cultural appropriation and the Pagans are very, you know, strong
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 8: fielding about cultural appropriation, but they don't really know what
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 8: it is and they choose not to remember actual appropriation
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 8: happening in real time. I may have gone a little
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 8: there ideo for that, I have strong feelings about it.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 9: I think this is an interesting question. Sorry guys, but
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 9: do you think that what you're raising number is an
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 9: interesting question? Like what is cultural appropriation as it relates
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 9: to magic? Like for me personally, I'm mixed. I've grown
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 9: everybody knows I have grown up. I grew up in
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 9: Asia and Canada and the US, all three throughout my
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 9: entire life, and I'm by Raylf. So for me, I
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 9: don't personally believe in cultural appropriation as long as people
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 9: are approaching the system with just a general respect, as
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 9: you should with all magical things, and you're not taking
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 9: them outside of the context of which they are understood.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 9: So I'm totally okay with people using different Obviously, that's
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 9: very chaos magic like using very like, you know, utilizing
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 9: the different methods like a honey jar is a great
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 9: wealth draw it's a great wealth tool that it shouldn't
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 9: just be like, oh, yeah, you can't use Hyjohn because
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 9: you're not from this thing. No, I mean I think
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 9: that you can. I just think that you should actually
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 9: know the story, like understand like Rayer Rabbit and the
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 9: you know, the whole mythology is behind it, both Native
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 9: and African American. I think that that's a really important
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 9: like the lore building. People forget about that, and I
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 9: think that's also what you're referring to when you're talking
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 9: about like the cultural amnesia. People have forgotten the lore.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 9: But the lore is at least well, we'll say one tenth,
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 9: we'll say one magic number, one tenth of like all
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 9: kind of like and like the way that you build
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 9: your own paradigm. If you want to use a really
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 9: chaos magic kind of framework, you need the lore, like
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 9: you want to use forty K like the slaw Niche
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 9: and instead of eras and like all those like little
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 9: dudes like LDR's and all that. That's fine, but you
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 9: still have to know the lore and you have to
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 9: understand how like the classes and the systems and the
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 9: little you know, machine guns work properly, because it won't
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 9: really make sense. It's not a it has to have
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 9: an internal coherent logic. So I just I really, but
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 9: I think it's important to have the discussion because it
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 9: does come up a lot, like what is cultural appropriation
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 9: in magic? And like for me, I just think if
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 9: someone wants to pray to Green Tara, that's fine, that's great.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 9: I highly think I think that's amazing, like because I
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 9: think it actually will start to transform their minds, even
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 9: if they don't think it will. It's just because everything
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 9: is so online, Like there's so much much information, Like
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 9: you can look up so much who do root work stuff?
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 9: You can work, look up you can go resor Neil
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 9: thir Hurston. I mean her book's really good if you
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 9: are just wanting to learn, like who do candle magic?
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 9: And like basic saint magic from like the Bahamas or
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 9: from Jamaica and how they were actually working. It's very basic.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 9: I don't mean basic in like a a like a
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 9: bad way. I mean basic is in like the their
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 9: color correspondences are very different than the ones that people
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 9: normally use. Their saint correspondences are are different. But it's
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 9: just it's simple. It's like very it's householder, it's everyone
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 9: can actually access the technologies needed to do it. So
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 9: I think that there's a great system for especially for
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 9: American magicians since they're here on the land that is
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 9: like America, Like why not tap into that like greater
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 9: knowledge of root work. That's just my opinion, but you
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 9: can definitely number. You can feel free to disagree or
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 9: anything you want to say.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 8: I agree, especially when you said context because when it
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 8: comes to cultural corporation, context is key. The way I
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 8: define cultural corporation is, first of all, it's not really
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 8: something one person does by themselves, unless you're going but
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 8: for the most part, it is it is something that
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 8: is cultural, like that is a group that is a
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 8: group is doing, so I define it as cultural corporation
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 8: occurs when a dominant group adopts the traditions or fashions,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 8: or music or magical practices of a marginalized group, takes
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 8: those things out of context and then either prevents the
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 8: marginalized group from having access to those things, condemns the
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 8: marginalized group for continuing to practice those things, or pretends
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 8: that the marginalized or that those things did not originate
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 8: within the marginalized group. So it's it's a complete It
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 8: has to do with the removing the context when in
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 8: regards to paganism and who do you know, folk magic
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 8: in general and witchcraft and these things, you know, always
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 8: have fuzzy edges. Things are going to drift in from
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 8: folk matt from one one regional folk magic practice to
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 8: him other. Like four thieves vinegar pops up in folk
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 8: magic across the US, and it's an old Renaissance Italian
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 8: health tonic that's used in magic in the US today.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 8: But the it's like something like a sour jar is
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 8: a really good idea or what people talk about return
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 8: to send your spells right now. Those are things that
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 8: originated within the multiple practices of marginalized groups. So when
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 8: somebody says, you know, this road opener spell is ancient
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 8: traditional witchcraft, no it's not. That's not where it can
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 8: It did not come from Europe, you know, the which
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 8: is the old European witches were not casting their road
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 8: opener spells and their return to sender spells. Those are
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 8: things that came out of the faulk magic of marginalized groups.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 8: But we are pretending that it's ancient traditional witchcraft that
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 8: is appropriative the fact that all these Pagans swooped in
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 8: and started incorporating who do into their practices, but taking
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 8: it out of the context of African American fault magic,
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 8: disregarding the lore behind it, and just rebranding it as
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 8: witchcraft is appropriative. And it wasn't just one person doing it.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 7: It was one.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 8: Community descending it to another community and taking everything to
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 8: make that's one person. Like if I were to go
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 8: pick up a book on Hudu and flip through it
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 8: and be like, oh, hey, a freezer spyle, I want
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 8: to give that a shot. That's not appropriative, right, That's
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 8: just me trying something in my kitchen. But if I
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 8: were to make a TikTok video and say today we're
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 8: going to talk about the ancient traditional European witchcraft of
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 8: freezer spells, I've taken the freezer spell out of its
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 8: context and I'm claiming ownership of it, and I'm disregarding
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 8: where it came from.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 8: And the big thing with with the kids today, with
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 8: their with their blue hair and their pronouns, I'm two
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 8: genics for my own good is you know, they think
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 8: of wick as cultural appropriation. They don't know why wickeed
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 8: is cultural appropriation. They have just decided that Wicket is
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 8: the source of the cultural appropriation because that way, especially
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 8: since so many occult practitioners and online spaces are of
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 8: European descent, it makes it's a way of absolving themselves
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 8: of anything wickeds appropriate. I'm not wicked, so I'm not
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 8: capable of doing that, and by doing that, they are
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 8: ignoring their own appropriated behaviors and inclinations, and they're not
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 8: realizing that it's not a wicked problem. It is a
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 8: white people problem. Again with the rants, I sometimes about
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 8: things too well, it's.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 7: The dice.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: Online.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 11: I don't go to those, and I do have a
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 11: pagan background Wiccan background, so I'm kind of surprised that
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 11: maybe it's the newer what they call the baby witches
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 11: go into these spaces because you mentioned earlier that you
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 11: are initiated into I want to say Alexandrian or Gardenerian Gardenerian.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 11: I'm sorry I always mix the two up. I do apologize,
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 11: but within WICCA and Paganism, you do have that initia
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 11: that you know, you go through initiations too, and you
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 11: have to keep your ols. So I'm trying to figure
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 11: out why do they think it's okay because a lot
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 11: of those Caribbean religions are also initiatory and they also
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 11: have their secrets to just dive in there, and they're
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 11: not as nice as the Wicked community. I'm just going
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 11: to say it that way and just grab the stuff
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 11: and say it's ours. And there's a lot of habits.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 11: I guess I haven't been around to see because I've
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 11: been doing my own work that.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 7: This whole discussion.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 11: I'm like, Oh, as a ceremonial magician, I used to
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 11: try these techniques, so they were familiar to me. So
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 11: I'm like, where's a chaos part? But if that's what
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 11: they're calling chaos magic.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 8: Within online spaces, especially online and cult spaces, terms get trendy,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 8: ideas get trendy, and people have a tendency of adopting
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 8: those terms without understanding where they come from. So the
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 8: idea of chaos magic got popular for a while and
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 8: people were like, oh, I I got it, but they
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 8: didn't have the context, so they just thought chaos meant
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 8: some sloppy and disciplined and crazy and like fly by
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 8: the seat of your pants. In the late nineties. By
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 8: the late nineties, WICKA was starting to get very trendy.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 8: Most modern Pagans was in the US sort of like
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 8: you know this, this witchcraft came over from England to
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 8: New York, the term Wicca started coming into use. The
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 8: modern pagan community kind of grew out of the Wicked
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 8: community and developed at something. Wicca itself tended to evolve
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 8: where there's Gardnerian and Alexandrian, but non initiatory. Wicked became
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 8: in saying eclectic. Wicca became a thing, and by the
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 8: nineties this idea of wick it was very trendy. The
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 8: New Age industry kind of jumped on it and started
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 8: calling a kind of a whole lot of stuff that
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 8: wasn't really wick and wicked, you know, or just sort
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 8: of kind of just processing wicca along with an amalgamation
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 8: of a whole bunch of different ideas, usually Eastern ideas
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 8: and Hinduism, and sort of using Wicca as like the
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 8: type face on the packaging for back they were saying it.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 8: So younger occultists today who don't know the history of
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 8: Wicked and don't realize there was a whole that there
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 8: were generations of Wickans before the New Age Wicca of
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 8: the early two thousands see that, and they think that's
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 8: all Wicke is. And they pick up a book on
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 8: Wicca and I'm paraphrasing a lot of things there, but
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 8: they pick up a book on Wicca, they open it up,
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 8: they see the mention of white sage and they go,
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 8: this is cultural appropriation. And because white white sage is
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 8: a closed practice, white sage is a plant. The religious
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 8: use of white white stage is part of a closed community.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 8: But there's this idea that well, that this is appropriation,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 8: which is just appropriation. But because they don't know the
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 8: history of their practices, they don't realize that a lot
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 8: of their own practices are rooted in Wicca, and that
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 8: you know that the modern pagan movement is the holidays
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 8: and the Wheel of the Year and the ritual practices
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 8: and the four Elements and the ritual knife and blessed
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 8: b all of that came from Wicca, and they don't
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 8: realize it. So they are still practicing Wicked today while
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 8: condemning Wicca for being something that they refused to identify
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 8: as it's a it's a it's a strange space. I
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 8: was not online for about ten years. I was doing
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 8: other stuff and I left online space with when everybody
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 8: was like, we're wicked. We came back on and everybody
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 8: was condemning Wika, and I was like.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 6: Miss something that I had noticed, Like I guess kind
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 6: of with the chaos magic first off, a lot of
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 6: the I'm just gonna keep it real, a lot of
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 6: the younger crowd just seemed to have like kind of
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 6: like just kind.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 7: Of screwed that up.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: And then but also and I.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 6: And I think because it just seemed to resonate one
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 6: with the other, I also noticed a lot of people
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 6: then gravitating towards like, well, I'm going to be into
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 6: like Thelma because I could take do what that will
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 6: fuck that off just as much as I'm fucking off
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 6: the idea of chaos magic. And it all basically comes
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 6: down to I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 6: when I want, you know what I'm saying. And it's
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 6: just like I did notice even like a lot of
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 6: that even happening with the misunderstanding of both. It's like
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 6: somehow it's amazing how they I just noticed a lot
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 6: of them kind of come together or a lot of
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 6: chaos magicians would have like athleenic edge to them.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: I just sawt in seeing this was like a thing.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: You know, at one point.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 8: There are trends within occult spaces, just like there are
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 8: anywhere else, and it, you know, there is the chaos.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 8: The trend of chast witchcraft or chass magic tends to
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 8: be evening out a little bit. I think the reason
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 8: why there was such a sudden interest in it again
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 8: has to do with pop culture because in by the
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 8: mid eighties in England, people were writing about the death
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 8: of chaos magic, that this is all coming to an end,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 8: like the paradigm is over. And then suddenly in the
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 8: mid mid to light two thousands people have this renewed
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 8: interest and it has to do with Marvel Comics because
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 8: the character of the Scarlet Witch, who's this you know,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 8: kind of cor avenger. Her power set was redefined and
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 8: was and somebody at Marvel picked up the term chaos magic.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 8: So the term chast magic started getting into everybody's head again.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 8: And then the Scarlet which was incorporated into the cinematic universe.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 8: There was the One Division limited seriesies and there's this
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 8: idea which is a chaos magic. And suddenly in online
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 8: spaces you see all these kids going, I'm a.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 7: Chast witch and they don't know about history of cast magic.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 8: They don't you know, they don't understand the idea of
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 8: of principle or discipline or all these things that are
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 8: kind of inherent to cast magic. They just know the
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 8: term and it resonates with them, but they don't realize
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 8: how it got into their heads in the first place.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 7: And it's not about that it came.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 8: From pop culture, but it's like it should be acknowledged.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 10: I think also you have the uh hundred million culture
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 10: in William Burrow's kind of being a big promoter of
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 10: chaos magic with this cut up method. And yeah, he
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 10: writes about in the was it the Reds series? He
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 10: wrote there at the end, you know.
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah that And I mean I think I feel like
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 5: I talk about it all the time, but Grant Morrison
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 5: and The Invisibles was the he just like exploded chaos
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 5: magic all over everyone's face, if you know what I'm saying.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 5: And it's like that is one of the main reasons
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 5: he even using certain ecstatic disciplines to make sure his
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 5: comic book series even was able to continue or very
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 5: you know, it's very chaos magic. I find it fascinating
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 5: to think that chaos magic itself seems to be quite appropriating,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Like it's basically having the
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 5: ability to take from all these places, put it together
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 5: and then be all like, I don't like structure, and
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 5: I don't like any of these things, and yet I'm
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 5: gonna take all these structoral practices and put it in
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 5: a frickin boiling pod and call it magic. And I'm
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 5: not hating, but I'm just saying, it's a fascinating thing.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 4: With our culture this day.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 8: It's a really good example of what he called He
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 8: coined the term hyper syndrome, which is sigil that moves
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 8: through time.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 7: So a story, a.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 8: Play, a movie, you know, any kind of visual art like,
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 8: it's a sigil that is is continually moving forward and
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 8: changing things as it moves through time. And with The
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 8: Invisible specifically, he really tied that storyline to himself and
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 8: works that he was trying to do, and as the
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 8: one character in specific in particular within The Invisibles start,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 8: he started writing the character having health problems, and he
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 8: developed all those health problems.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 5: Yes, that's why he so Graham Morrison dressed up with
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 5: all leather bald Head designed his character to be like
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 5: that and all of a sudden, He's like, I want
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 5: my character to fall in love with a bunch of
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 5: hot redheads.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 4: And so in his life came a bunch of hot redheads.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 5: And I think it's really fascinating to see the dangers
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 5: of these things because he started not ever having to
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 5: have a real relationship because he didn't understand the underpinnings
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 5: of how magic works. It's like, you can, unless you're descriptive,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 5: You're just gonna get a bunch of hot red heads
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 5: who are going to run all over your heart and
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 5: then fall away eventually. And then, Yeah, he hurt himself
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 5: in the comic, and then he hurt himself there, thus
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 5: saying I will never hurt myself again in the comic
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 5: because I don't want to be in the hospital for
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 5: the last week Mark.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 10: I was going to say, Philip K.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 7: Dick.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 10: He also wrote himself into his work and into balance.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 10: That's in exactly how he was going to die. Yeah,
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 10: and so you know, when you're using these mechanisms, these
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 10: vehicles of the creative force, you really have to be
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 10: aware of the intensity and the power that they possess.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 8: Yeah, this magician named our culture Aiden Walker, who in
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 8: one of his books, and they cannot remember that changing
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 8: fate or tempting fate, something about fate.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 7: Weaving fate is the name of the book.
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 8: And he presents a hypersential idea with journal where he
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 8: incorporates some folk matchic ideas, and there's like you get
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 8: your books that you're going to write in and you
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 8: go to the Crossroads at midnight and some of the
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 8: Devil and.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 7: It's the whole thing.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 8: But then you treat that book like your diary basically,
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 8: and every day you come home and you write about
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 8: your day, but you write about your day as if
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 8: you were living the life that you actually won. So
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 8: like if I really wanted to be a flight attendant
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 8: and come home from my retail management job and be like, man,
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 8: today was really rough at the airline, but this worked
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 8: out well and I got to meet all these great
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 8: people on the flight. And this flight was delayed, but
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 8: we ended up getting to go to this other destination.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 8: And so you're, basically he calls it telling true lies.
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 8: You're you're writing the life you want as if it
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 8: was already happening, which is I think where one thing
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 8: about that differentiates chaos magic is there is you know
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 8: there is the fuck around, but there is definitely the
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 8: find out and we tend to learn on lessons that way.
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 8: So we look at the hypercentials of Grant Morrison and
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 8: Philip K. Dick and the effects that those hyperstentials had
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 8: on their health and well being, and then we look
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 8: at Aiden Walker's Walker's hypercentual, which is, I've learned lessons
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 8: from what they went through, and so we're not going
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 8: to do it that way. We're going to do it
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 8: in a way that benefits us and doesn't injo ourselves
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 8: or ruin our life lives.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 6: Uh, Thumper, was there a Is there anything that you
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 6: would like to add about your mom?
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 9: Anybody?
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 8: I I've actually had a blast night and I feel like.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 7: That.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 8: I don't know if I have anything else I want
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 8: to add.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 7: I will I say.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 8: The only thing that I would say about the book
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 8: itself is that, to quote Phil hein the cast edition,
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 8: Phil high magic should be fun and so if and
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 8: when people get a hold of the chaos Apple approach
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 8: it as a tool to have fun with, you know,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 8: like like the spells in the book, the experiments in
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 8: the book. I would like people to take an enjoyment
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 8: of magical practice out of it, So I hope that's
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 8: what people get out of it.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: I love it. I had a lot of fun for real. Yeah,
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 3: and I guess, I guess we'll wrap it up. I
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 3: honestly can't think of anything else bredon. Please let everybody
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 3: know where they can fund your stuff.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 5: Ohy, great, thank you, Thank you Thumper. Great to meet
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 5: you everyone, Golden Chaos Apple, make sure it doesn't create chaos.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 5: Figure it out. Read the book. He's probably got it
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 5: in there. And how are you gonna walk through the
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 5: chaos with a light step and a smile on your face?
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 5: And always Nick, thank you for having me on. I
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 5: love these conversations. This is how we meet new people,
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 5: and we are trying to find our way through this
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 5: ocean of chaos. Head on over to megas in the
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 5: media because you should already be subscribed.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 4: That's all I got.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 5: Just go over to Instagram, go over to x make
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 5: sure you follow every one of these people on this panel.
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 5: We're trying to find myth, meaning and magic in this strange,
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 5: chaotic world. Again, thank you Thumper, and I love everybody
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 5: on this panel.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 4: Thank you guys.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you for joining us.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 4: Thank you for doing the man, appreciate it anytime.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 3: Hell yeah, please let everybody know what's up with you.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: What's up with all of your all the stuff that
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: you would do that you do well, your endeavors. You
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: muted who's that jin Oh?
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 9: Sorry, boss, I was I didn't hear who you said.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 9: I thought it was Judith. I was like, in my mind,
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 9: I was like, okay, I apologize. That's so my bad.
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 9: So thank you, Brandon. That was a really awesome both
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 9: intro and outro little bars you dropped. So thank you.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 9: You're making me kind of look like a side as
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 9: like the side piece to the show.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 9: I was never want to ask me to do the
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 9: intro again anyway. Brand and are actually friends. Just like,
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 9: just keep that in mind everybody listening. We really are friends.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 9: So thank you so much, Thumper. It was honestly a
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 9: huge like, it was like really cool to do this.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 9: I re released. Unfortunately last year almost at this time
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 9: last year, one of the boys who I did the
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 9: five part the first series on Tracy Twyman, not on
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 9: her biography but on the metaphysics of her work. We
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 9: did a five part series. Unfortunately, one of the boys
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 9: passed away around this time last year, so I re
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 9: released his episode, gave it some new art, new Keno,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 9: new hyper sigil, and I just dropped it on IG
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 9: and X so people. I encourage people to check it out.
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 9: It's my third episode I ever recorded on my show
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 9: and I love Zach, so shout out Zach RP my brother,
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 9: and people can check me out on Twitter at Wukanrieborn
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 9: w uk oh and g Reborn or on at Threshold Saints,
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 9: which is both for IG and Twitter and of course substack.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 9: And you can check out all of our Gray Lodge
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 9: work at the True Gray Lodge dot com t r
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 9: ve gray Lodge dot com because it's plus ultra all
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 9: the way up. And yeah, thank you guys so much.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 9: I appreciate it, Brandon, of course, Robbie, Judith and mister
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 9: ninety three Nick and of course Thumper awesome show rock
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 9: on guys.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a blessed and thank you very much
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 3: for making it.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: Jen, I really appreciate it.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 3: And Robbie Marx what is all. Please let everybody know
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 3: where they can find your great stuff.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 10: It was great hanging out with everybody of the old
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 10: faces and the new faces. Good to meet you.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 7: Thumper.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 10: As far as my work, I'm currently working on illustrations
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 10: from my Memrod book, which I got about eight or
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 10: nine of them complete. And then if you want to
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 10: check out my various works, you can go to my
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 10: link tree which is link tree r M r X
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 10: and you can find my metamind cast there which I
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 10: just did an episode on learning to Lucid Dream. I
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 10: just released an episode on the creation of the human
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 10: in the demon Haunted World, and then the one this
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 10: week was the bloodline of the first Divine Couple leading
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 10: into the Secrets of Enoch. So go over there and
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 10: check out my link tree and all the things that
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 10: I have to offer. And again, Nick, I appreciate it
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 10: as always.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 7: Thanks.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 3: I always appreciate you here, Robbie, thank you very much.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 3: And last but not least, Judith please let him aright.
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 11: Know, thank you for having me. Brandon. You're gonna have
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 11: to teach me how to do an intro like you do.
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 4: It is awesome.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 11: It's been a pleasure again, Jen every time.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 7: Robbie.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 11: This is the second time I've been with you, so
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 11: it's a pleasure. Thumper, thank you so much. I am
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 11: actually going to get your book because from what Nick
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 11: has said so far. I like your format the way
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 11: you present it, and I don't think you realize you
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 11: also add a little element because I got to read
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 11: the little intro a little bit of discernment in there,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 11: uh to warm to advise people that use that. So
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 11: I'm looking forward to that and anyone else. You could
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 11: find me on YouTube and on x as the Loon
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 11: and I do more self awareness, more mindfulness and working
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 11: on yourself before you start taking work like this.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 9: Thank you, Thank you very much, Judith. I really appreciate
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 9: you making it here.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 6: And h thump please if you want to let everybody
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 6: know what's up, let them know where you can find
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 6: anything usage want to promote.
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 3: And the mook.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 8: Okay, well, first of all, thank you guys so much
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 8: for having me I had last. I tend not to
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 8: know how periods work, so I will just steamroll through
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 8: a conversation. That's great.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 7: I really enjoyed it here.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 8: You can find me at someforge dot com or pretty
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 8: much anywhere at fivefold law, what work fivefold Law, and
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 8: I am currently working on the first draft of my
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 8: next book, which will be sort of a spiritual sequel
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 8: to The casts Apple. While getting more into world mythology
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 8: and pop culture. One thing I did forget to say
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 8: about the casts Apple, just the people know what they're
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 8: getting into. Some of the pages are intentionally upside down.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 8: Oh yeah, well I've caught that. My only one star
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 8: review on Amazon came from somebody who got thought he
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 8: got a misprint.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 7: So I want people know that that was done.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 8: But yeah, that's uh that five full law everywhere thumperforge
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 8: dot com and uh, I will wonder about here anytime.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 9: You want me.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely had him last. And I noticed that too,
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 3: with the upside down with like I mean, I don't know.
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 3: For me, I just knew that was tom purpose.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 6: I just didn't yeah, especially because it was also it's
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 6: also like I think it's the Discordian parts.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, yeah, that was Discordian dance breaks and just
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 8: a little stop and reorient and think about things in
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 8: a different way. And it was actually somebody on the
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 8: design team at the publisher came up with the idea
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 8: and I wasn't entirely sold on it. So I went
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 8: to my most like like grumpy, curmudgeonly friend and I said, Hey,
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 8: if some of the pages in the book were upside down,
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 8: what would you think, And he said, I think that
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 8: would mean that I should stop and reorient and change
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 8: the way I'm looking at it. I was like, we's old.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 8: So yeah, everybody, for the most part, everybody seems to
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 8: get it. But I always sort of offer that disclis,
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 8: so people aren't you.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 6: And I said before, the book to me reads differently.
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 6: It's not going to be a to me. It's in
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 6: your everyday magic book, you know. I think it's a
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 6: little bit more personal.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I liked it so far from what
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 3: I read. I highly suggest that if you're into chaos magic.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 6: I just I feel like if I tell you to
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 6: check this book out and snack it and be like
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 6: every other book you read. So, uh, check it out
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 6: if you're into that stuff and thump very amazing.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 9: Again.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 3: I was very happy for being on. If you coming on,
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 3: we'll definitely get you on the future if you have one.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: We had.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 3: I had a blast, so I would love to get
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 3: you back on again.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 6: And uh, thank you everybody that showed up, and thank
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 6: you everybody in the chat. There's a lot of people
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 6: in chat, and that's what's up, and that's where we
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 6: do it live and until the next one.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 3: Everybody be well late yeah,