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SMNTY Classics: Women Climbing Mountains · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Smantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: that was near and dear to me women climbing mountains
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: because I went down a wild rabbit hole during the
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: pandemic and I actually got sucked back into it again
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: like a year later.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Did our recent famous around the world kind of bring
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: you in a little bit because we talked about our
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: recent glaciologist who was mountain climbing for her studies.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was part of it.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I mean that actually came later than the second rabbit hole,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: but it's like it's always there.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Waiting to pull me back, because yes, it's just so fascinating.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know quite why, but I love it. Adventures
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: adventures maybe yeah, the danger it's dangerous. Well, please enjoy
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: aw coome to stuff I Never told you Protection of iHeartRadio,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and today we're taking a bit of a break. It
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: wasn't intentional from the dark news of day to talk
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: about mountaineering and not to say that we aren't going
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: to talk about some dark things.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: So I guess this is your content warning.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I think it's nothing major, but we are going to
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: be talking about death in mountaineering.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: And so this kind of came about because I recently.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Went down a mountaineering rabbit hole because of a free
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Paramount Plus trial. I could go into the details, I won't,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: but basically I ended up watching a lot of documentaries
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: about mountaineering.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I have so many mountaineering facts.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I'm very surprised I did not bombard you with them
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: the last time we hung out, because I've the last
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: few times i've been out with people and I've had
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: a couple of.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Drinks, I'm like, do you know about the des zone.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It's it's ridiculous.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: Bt Doves. Paramount Plus is not a sponsor for me.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: They are not a not currently, not currently, but hey.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: I need a subscription, so if you want to.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Well that's the thing, I'm such a cheapskate. When I
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: get the free trial, I watch things I would never
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: watch otherwise. And this is how this happened. I wouldn't
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: have watched these documentaries otherwise. I did enjoy them, clearly.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you're like, guess what we're gonna do
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: an episode of Mountain And I was like, oh, okay,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: here we go. I was like, have you heard about
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: the desta You're like what you did not ask me that?
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, but you were surprised when I told you that
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: I've been on this mountaineering rabbit.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Not as surprised because your mind is unique and like
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: to go down mountains.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I'm sure likes to go down mountains. My mind is unique,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: And I actually have been mountaineering, Okay, not in anything
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: like this that we're specifically going to.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Talk about, but I have climbed.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Uh. I have had to deal with a climatization and
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: altitude poisoning.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Actually, oh wow, of course, Oh it's horrible. Don't recommend it.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: But I watched these documentaries and I couldn't stop thinking
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: about the mindset of climbing a mountain. When the death
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: rate is one four, which is what it is for
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: K two, I think, oh, look.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: My mountaineering facts. They're coming to us. Here we go.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: However, I do want to point out because a lot
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: of mountaineers, I really don't want to do you in
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: justice if you're listening, say that like statistics numbers wise,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and we can argue about like the mindset specifically, but
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: you're actually more likely to die in.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: A cra accident.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I think that's more of a numbers game
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: than and anyway I'm getting I'm already going off trail.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: But when asked about like why would you climb Mount Everest,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: famous British britishman George Lee Mallory, who is one of
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: the first to summit, if not the first to summit
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Mount Everest, said because it's there and so here we are,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: here we are.
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  Speaker 3: I feel like that's a lot of people like really
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: have this level of seeing it and like, yes, I
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: want because it's not it's dangerous, and it's it's so
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: like incredibly hard to train. People don't understand all of that,
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: and it seems doable. So that's I'm going to climb
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  Speaker 3: my Mount Everest, or I'm going to climb Machu Pichu,
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: like all of these amazing destinations without understanding the true
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: like behind the scenes of it. Just doing the at
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: twelve the Appalachi is pretty difficult, but it's not the
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: level as you know again Mount Everest, Mancha Picci like that,
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  Speaker 3: there's a whole different level mindset, but it seems attainable
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: because if you can walk for those who are able
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: body enough to walk or even access a trail.
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like this could be something.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, have you ever thought about it?
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: I think I had actually said I was going to
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: climb something. I forgot which one it is. I'm pret
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: sure it wasn't Mount Everest, because I was like, I
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: know better than that, but because I also love hiking
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: and a long going hot I like, again, this is
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: one of the things, like I can walk, sure, so.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: Let me try to do this.
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  Speaker 3: I love hiking, I love seeing great views, and I
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: don't mind backpacking, so let's try this. Because I definitely
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: can't rock climb. You know, I'm like, well, I thought
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: about skydiving, but that seems a little even more perilous
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: in my head, like all of that. So I'm sure
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: I have and you know, it's kind of that old
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: like mid life crisis.
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: I'm going to climb on top of the mountain.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I've thought about it, but never seriously,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: or at least Everest, because I did do whatever. I
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: can't even remember the mountains name, but I have pictures
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: and it looks great. But I don't think I ever
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: seriously considered it, and that surprises a lot of people,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: and I tell them because I guess I'm kind of
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: like I'm making like a finger gun motion.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, it's finger guns. Excuse you, no, geez,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: so important.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about We're going to talk
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: about a lot of accessibility issues, and of course we're
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: gonna keep this intersectional as we want to do. Uh
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: And because of that, like I know, people get really
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: riled up about this.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to start with a lot of disclaimers.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, so we are not going to really touch on
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: the environmental impacts and a harm that the commercialization of
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: mountaineering has done, but we do want to acknowledge that
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: is a.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Big part of the conversation and it should be.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: And also never ever ever want to undervalue the work
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: of the surpas and high altitude porters who honestly make
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: it possible for most folks in this commercialization space and
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: have risk serialized and sometimes died, especially when it comes
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: to yes, this capitalizing climbing of mountains and government policies
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: that place profits over safety, but also the systems of
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: poverty that might make that an option considered in the
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: first place. This is not that podcast that does exist,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: because I have listened to it, I have watched it,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: and I think that.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Is an incredibly important part of all this, and that's.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Why we had to mention it at the top, even
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: though that's not really what we're talking about today. Also
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: want to mention plenty of indigenous peoples and regions with
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: these mountains regularly transverse high altitudes. Maybe not summiting, but
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: worth mentioning, because a lot of the people we're talking
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  Speaker 2: about are kind of like getting to the top, taking
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: the picture going down when.
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  Speaker 1: Other people might be doing it all the time, or
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: like something close.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things that I've been seeing
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  Speaker 3: on social media slash techtok is definitely a lot of
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  Speaker 3: Native Haaians being like, please stop doing this. You don't
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  Speaker 3: know what you're doing, and you're causing dangers and then
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  Speaker 3: becoming a whole risk and then having our people look
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  Speaker 3: like the enemies for telling you not to do this,
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  Speaker 3: and then also the enemies when we're like, we're not
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  Speaker 3: going to risk our lives because you did something that
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: we told you not to do.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, with everything we talk about, I
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: would just encourage everyone to do your research and to
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: be respectful and yeah, there's a safety question in this,
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  Speaker 2: and you should take that very seriously because other people's
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  Speaker 2: lives and well beings are on the line other than yours.
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  Speaker 2: Another thing worth mentioning mountaineering is oftentimes, but not always,
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  Speaker 2: extremely inaccessible in terms of price of equipment and of travel,
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  Speaker 2: So that's something of So a lot of the stories
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  Speaker 2: about mountaineering, and especially around tragedy in these situations are
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  Speaker 2: a bit muddled for a number of reasons, and we
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: are going to talk about one specific case, but so
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: just keep that in mind and final disclaimer, we are
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: not experts, and please do not yell at us. I
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: know commercial climbing really gets people angry, and I get it.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: We're doing more of a history of women who have
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: climbed mountains and also occurrent I'll look at what's going
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: on right now. And also we are sticking to basic
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: mountaineering facts when it comes to the women we're talking about,
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  Speaker 2: So it could be they have something less than savory
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: in their past.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: It could be that they're worth talking about more.
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  Speaker 2: And if you know more about that, please let us know,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: because clearly I'm eager.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: For mountaineering facts. I'm like just ready to receive them.
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: He's ready for trivia.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Let's go.
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  Speaker 2: I am, I am imm all right, So let's start
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: with the definition. What is mountaineering exactly? Well, actually, huh.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: It is not as simple as you think and is
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: up for debate. Most seem to agree that it typically
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: involves traversing snow and possibly ice and glaciers to reach
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: a summit, which is called summitting. Others define it as
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: scaling a mountain. Sometimes rock climbing does get roped into it.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: I think we're more specifically talking about summitting, ice, snow,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: glaciers involved, though, So.
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  Speaker 4: Would Tom Cruise be a mountaineer.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: The question of the podcast.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I would love if I became like you know how
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: on trivia teams you have like your sports person, you're
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: like music person.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I would love if I was a mountain I bet
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: he is, Yes, I bet he.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I just wondered because I just remember that picture
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: of him like hanging from the edge, and I know
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: that that's free climbing essentially, but I'm guessing it's probably
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: roped up into this. Again, people need to be trained.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: I cannot emphasize this enough. People really do things on
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: a silly idea and not researching it heavily.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: Please don't do this.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: So, of course, numbers are sort of hard to track,
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: but according to some data from the Outdoor Industry Association,
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: there are about two million climbers in the US, and
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: as far as women, we couldn't find a general number,
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: but data from specific mountains in the case, it ranges
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: from ten to twenty percent, but has been on the rise.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, and since the first known summit of Everest in
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifty three, only about eight percent of those who
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: have summited Everest have been women. Many women have reported
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: misogyny and getting questioned at every turn. And I will
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: say researching this, I found a lot of troubling. I
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: have an anxiety around articles that go to a strictly
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: biological sense.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Oh right, why things are the way they are?
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: That makes me really yeah, that makes me really nervous.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: There are a lot about this. A lot of them
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: say women and men evolved equally to be able to
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: summit mountains, and there were scientific articles about that, but
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: I just felt really uncomfortable talking about it, to be honest.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: But they do it right, Okay, So let's get into
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: some history, and this one is kind of a mess.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be straightforward, that's kind of a mess.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: But I think we've got it wrangled up where it's
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: it's going to be interesting. It's got quite a few
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: intersecting threads. So let's start with alpine mountaineering, which really
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: took off during the nineteenth century, and the first men
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: to complete these climbs capture the attention, awe and ire
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: of the publics of these alpine mountaineering.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Perhaps I don't need to say it, but you know,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: climbing mountains in the Alps.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Women they also climbed these peaks, though unlesser numbers, but
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: with perhaps even more ire mm hmm.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: So for a lot long time throughout history, mountaineering has
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: been traditionally and firmly in the domain of men. In fact,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: af Mummery, a Victorian mountaineer, claimed that mountains have three phases.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: They go through the inaccessible peak, the most difficult ascent
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: in the Alps, and a quote an easy day for
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: a lady, implying that once a woman climbs it, anybody
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: can do it in the mountain loses it's allure and
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: it's no longer worthwhile.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but Mummery himself knew that women could climb,
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  Speaker 2: He commented on Lily Bristow's eighteen ninety three climb of Grippon.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Lucy Walker climbed the matter Horn in eighteen seventy one,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: only six years after a man made the first ascent.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Mummery talked about.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: That too, and his own wife, Mary was a skilled climber.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Together they climbed two felscruts during a thunderstorm and something
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: of a mountaining as I think I'd made that up,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: but now we're saying it a mountaining legend. But in
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: his mind, her participation lessened that a comp and the
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: mountain itself. If a woman can do it, he thought,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: can't anybody, so therefore useless and as we've discussed in
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: multiple episodes, including our look at Women in the Olympics,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Gym timidation and a History of Women Exercising, the early
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: twentieth century is when younger, middle class, typically white women
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: started playing certain sports, usually ones where it was believed
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: it was possible to remain lady like while playing them,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: aka you won't sweat and you can wear like a skirt.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: As this was happening, male explorers were going to Antarctica
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: and planning to summitt Everest. Women and young girls not
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: infrequently wrote to these explorers asking to join them on
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: their endeavors. Women in this realm were often well off
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: and or unmarried, and or ill that whole mountain air
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: saying like, go get some mountain air. They were often
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: in their thirties and forties when they got their start,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: and many were husband and wife teams, but a lot
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: were sister teams or our friend. Women who did dare
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: to climb mountains with the men often caused somewhat of
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: an uproar. For instance, when Bristow shared a tent with
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: mail climbers, people who knew her raised their eyebrows. On
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: the other hand, when Gertrude Bell helped rescue some of
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: her fellow mail climbers, she was praised by the guide
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: and others in the group. Women's clothing was still policed.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Some women climbed in skirts, while others made news by
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: climbing in pants. Wearing a skirt to climb was pretty
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: much always unsafe, so like while trying to summit the
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: matter Horn with her father in eighteen sixty seven, Felicite
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Carell's skirts kept catching dangerously in the wind until eventually
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: she could go no further. The matter horns coal Felicitae
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: is named for her. Many women would wear a dress
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: from the hotel and then take it off at the
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: bottom of the mountain to make climbing easier and safer,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: or some variation of that, like maybe they would take
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: it off once they got started climbing.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: A climber named missus Audrey leblond or Lizzie leblond On's
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: had to return to a summit when on the descent
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: they realized she realized she'd left her skirt there, so
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: they'd go back up.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: Oh man, those damn scarves, the chafing alone.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: On the sing alone. Yeah no, thank you.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: So when the Alpine Club was founded in eighteen fifty seven,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: they did not allow women as members.
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: Surprise.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: In response, women created the Ladies Alpine Club in nineteen
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: o seven. Leblon served as the first president. Congratulations and
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: some did view mountaineering as somewhat of a feminist thing,
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: which is interesting.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Some viewed it as a feminist thing like women can
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: climb mountains too.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: But others viewed it as like, look at those men
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: climbing their mountains. Silly, it's interesting, So we did want
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: to talk about some famous women mountaineers and some famous
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: incidents involving women mountaineers. Again, this is really abbreviated and short,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: so if you are interested, I'm like they are their
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: fellow interested mountaineering people out there, please let us know
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: and we can do a whole episode on it. And
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: we have mentioned some already, but we want to go
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: over a few more. One is Fanny Bullock Workman, who
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: was the first woman to ascend many peaks in the
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Himalayas man or woman. In nineteen twelve. Bullock Workman was
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: photographed in the Himalayas holding a sign that read votes
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: for women, and she had a nemesis who I didn't include,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: who is also feminist, but they were nemeses, so that's interesting.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Then there's Miriam O'Brien. After O'Brien was told she needed
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: a man to show her where some it was, she
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: was infuriated and wrote, the one who goes up first
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: on the rope has even more fun as he solves
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: the immediate problems of technique, tactics, and strategy as they occur.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: I saw no reason why women ipso facto should be
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: incapable of leading a good climb. They had, as a
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: matter of fact, already done so on some few scattered occasions.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: But why not make it a regular thing on the
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: usual climbs of the day. I decided to try some
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: climbs and not only guideless, but manless. By the nineteen twenties,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: she followed up on this promise. She and other women
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: without the Eight of Men completed many summits and many
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: first She even had an essay published an edition of
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: National Geographic titled Manless Alpine Climbing, which is actually where
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: that quote is from myself.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I need to do like a theatrical reading of this.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Oh you're speaking my language, Samantha.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying manless alpine climbing should be a reading
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: for us like this.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: I say, that's a great user, so good, so good. Yeah.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: So then there's also Alma Wagen Wagan Wagin. All right,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: we're gonna say Wagan okay, And if someone knows they're
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: going to correct me, I know they will, and I
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: really want you to also. Fun fact, my great grandmother's
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: name was Alma anyway, so she often gets the credit
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: as the first woman mountain guide in North America, and
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty three, she said, quote, there were places
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: to climb, and I wanted to teach other women.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: The joy of climbing.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Yes, And then we have Arlene bloom Bloom that the
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: first all women are sent on Annapurna. That was also
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: the first successful American attempt in nineteen seventy eight. Oh,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: that's pretty recent. She was the first woman out of
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: the US to try her hand at climbing Mount Everest,
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: and she was a member of the first all women
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: team to summit the NULLI.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, and my mountaineering fact.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Annapurna, I believe has been an is still the most
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: dangerous mountain to summit.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: It has the highest death rate, so it's pretty easy. Yees.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm speaking of This is kind of the darker part.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about some death.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: I did want to include it because I hadn't heard
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: about it, and that was sort of the point the
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: article I was reading was making, was like, this was
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: a huge tragedy, but because of a couple of political things,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: but also because they were women, we don't hear about it.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: The whole team was women, So just forewarning. In nineteen
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: seventy two, Elvira Chattevaya organized the first all women's climb
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: of a seven thousand meter peak, and this was not
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: by far her last time contributing to mountaineering history or
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: her first time so. In June nineteen seventy four, one
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: hundred and seventy climbers from several different countries came together
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: in a mountaineering camp in the Premier Mountains and the
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: USSR but is now the border of Tajikistan and Kurdistan.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: A many with a goal of climbing the over seven
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: thousand meter peak Lenin. This was a part of a
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: USSR hosted international events, and many of the organizers were
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: unsure about including women, but felt like having zero women
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: wouldn't look good for them. It was meant to foster
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: a healthier relationship between the US and the USSR and
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: to promote mountaineering, especially to younger people. Most of the
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: climbers were going to ascend, or hoped to ascend, the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: country's second highest peak when an.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Earthquake shruck shaken in more wayte than one. I did
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: not mean to make that fun.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: After the earthquake, American climber Mollie Higgins reported turning a
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: corner and seeing a Russian woman, Chadavea, bossing around four
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Russian men. She turned to Higgins and said, I am
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: alviras Chadavea, I am master of sport.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: What are you?
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And master of sport was a top credential in USSR
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: sport and rarely obtained by women at the time. Higgins
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: later said, I thought it was great. I didn't want
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: to be bossy like that, but here was a woman
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: who really was capable. I wanted to be like her.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: That strong and that experienced, she was a heroine right there.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: By many accounts, the women of this expedition generally stayed
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: on the Soviet side of the camp, helped each other out.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: They practiced, they sang songs, they talked, they laughed, all
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: while taking what they were doing very very seriously. They
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: didn't really argue our fight with each other. Shadavea wrote,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: you men have never dreamed of such openness. Another American
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: who we just mentioned, Arlene Blum, remembers being welcomed by
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Shadava after some politics that had her feeling left out
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: of the American crew.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Basically, they were like, you're not experienced enough to be here.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: You go over there, and Shadavea informed Blum that the
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: mail climbers didn't believe a woman's team could ever summit
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Pete Lenin, but that was Shadavea's goal. Her plan was
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: to take a team of eight women to traverse the peak,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: the first to do so, no meta, the gender and BioVac,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: which is basically extreme temporary camping on the top peak overnight.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: But of course, the weather was out of their control.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: The worst storm in a quarter decade rage, causing dangerous
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: avalanche conditions, many of which would go on to kill
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: several climbers. The day before the storm hit, organizers warned
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: that serious weather conditions were impending and they advised everyone
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: to descend. The group of Russian women led by Shadavaya
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: were witnessed around four hundred feet from the summit, about
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty two meters, and they sent a
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: message that they had in fact submitted, so they did
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: the thing. The following day, they radioed again and forming organizers,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: one of whom was Shadabaya's husband, of the issues that
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: they were having winds of seventy to eighty miles per hour,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: temperatures as low as negative forty degrees fahrenheit, and a
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: foot of snow made visibility virtually impossible. Chadava reported that
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: one of the women was sick and the other unwell.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: She was advised to descend and if necessary, leave the
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: sick women behind. As they started to descend, one of
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: the women would tragically die, allegedly freezing to death as
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: she held the rope for others to climb down. The
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: survivors made it a few hundred feet before setting up tents.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: That night, or perhaps the next, the two sick women died.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: The winds blew away much of their equipment, and the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: five surviving women to shelter in a tent without poles
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: and only three sleeping bags. The next morning, some climbers
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: who overheard the trouble the Russians were in tried to help,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: but weren't able to get far because of the weather.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Hadavea informed organizers that three more of the women were
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: sick and they could not leave them after everything they'd
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: been through together and what they've done for each other.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: A few hours later, she messaged, it is very sad
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: here where it was once so beautiful, And within a
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: few more hours some of the women had died, and
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Shadavea radioed they are all gone.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: That last asked when will we see the flowers again?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Two others earlier asked about their children. Now it is
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: no use. A few hours later, we are sorry, we
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: have failed you. We tried so hard. Now we are
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: so cold. And a few hours later another of the
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: women had died, and then another, Shadaveya, told organizers she
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: was too weak to hold down the transmit button anymore.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: And the final message came later from the remaining climber,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Galina Parahojuk. Now we are two and now we will
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: all die. We are very sorry, we tried but we
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: could not. Please forgive us. We love you, goodbye. When
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the weather cleared, the American team started to ascend towards
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: the peak. None the wiser, Higgins, successfully summited, as did
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: another American woman, the respected mountaineer Marty Hoey, who would
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: later die on Everest in an attempt to become the
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: first woman to summit in nineteen eighty two. They, among
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: other climbers that summited, found the bodies of the Russian women.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: In total, thirteen died, including the eight women on that team.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: There were many reasons for this tragedy. One Higgins has
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: suggested is they were the test group. They felt they
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: needed to do it to uphold the standard of the
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: women's team, and Plum said the women were so very
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: loyal to each other they stayed together until the end.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: So again the article was making the point like this
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: is a pretty serious tragedy and mountaineering history, and a
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: lot of the tragedies that people can name and in
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: successes people can name are about men, and this one
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: has sort of been buried and people don't know about it.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: It was an all women's team and they were the
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: first to summit, but they didn't didn't survive it.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: Oh goodness. M Blum didn't go with them then.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: No, she was on Yeah, this was an all Russian team.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Blum was on the American. She wanted to go with them,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: but because of the like politics of it, they wanted
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: it to be an all ussr team.
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really tragic. I feel like though, there's definitely.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Been movies on all male teams or at least most
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: of the male teams who have died, and you are horror.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: Stories and then they are kind of elevated to like
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: hero status sometimes.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, typically.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Watched them, so like at this point, you know this
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: is really sad they didn't make it, and then the
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: loyalty they had to each other.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: It could have been a movie. I feel like this
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: has been a nineties movie.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: I feel I mean, maybe it exists, listeners, maybe let
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: us know. I don't, right, because the whole point of
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: the article was like, how the hell we don't talk
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: about this?
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Of course it has a lot to do with like
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: at that point the USSR being kind of the enemy
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: of the state. I mean today we're not standing with Russia,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: so it's kind of that level, I'm sure, which we
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: don't know how much politics plays into it, and I
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: wonder how much. Yeah, the USSR history sticks with the
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: within Russia, like the former Soviet all of that area.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: How much did they know Do they actually know a
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: lot of it?
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: And we just we don't know a lot of it,
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: which happens a lot when it comes to international stuff. Yeah,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: but moving on to the less sad, less sad historical context,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: we have a Junko Tabe who became the first member
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: to Summit Everest in nineteen seventy five as part of
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: an all women team, which is awesome. And we have
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Alison Hargreaves who was recognized as the first person to
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: solo climb all six of the Great and Northern faces
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: of the Alps, and is credited with climbing ever its
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: solo without oxygen or the support of a sherpa. I
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: feel like without the oxygen thing.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: That's a huge space.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: It should happen.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: I have like I could go.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: If this is a different podcast, I'd be talking about that,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I'd be talking about the dangers you're descending.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I'd be talking about ice glaciers. Like I'm terri you.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: I just I feel like I get I get the
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: like notoriety to it, but I'm like, is it necessary?
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: Okay?
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: All right, all right, all right, I don't I'm not
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: a mountaineer. There's a whole lot of things I don't know.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Obviously.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: I am a mere amateur hiker at best, probably just
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: a walker.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: So she died on K two, one of the most
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: dangerous summers in the world, in nineteen ninety five.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: K two and Anna Perna are the two that are
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: like tied for the most team I think, or they
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: go back and forth.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: This is the actual better news. Okay, this one's actually better.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: In two thousand and six, Sophia Danenberg became the first
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: black woman to summit Everest. She said that at the
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: time of her climb quote, when I was at base camp,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: if there were twenty female climbers, there must have been
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: two thousand men. And mountaineering generally there aren't many women.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But there are so few women on Everest. And it's
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: not just the climbers. Almost all the sherpas, guides, cooks,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: and staff are men. It's like being in a small
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: town with almost no women, and if you're climbing, you're
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: there for months. This macho climbing culture can be intimidating
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: for women. Young women, including women of color, are bringing
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: their values into climbing and demanding that things are different.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: It grows exponentially once it started. Mountaineering is kind of
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: lagging behind, but the industry is to respond. She's also
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: been very outspoken about her experience climbing as a black woman. Quote,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: there are a lack of role models for people of
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: color in the climbing community. I also think that climbing
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: is an indicator of lagging social economic issues in her country.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: People who climb big mountains are all the same, well educated,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: work at an engineering company, from upper middle class families.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Climbing is time consuming and costly. No matter what anyone
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: says about the metaphysical part of climbing, it's a selfish,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: non productive activity. It's a hobby that takes up a
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: lot of time. It's a selfish hobby. It's a hobby
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: that I love. Some people don't have the privilege of
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: not being productive. And then further, I've noticed that when
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I've met people on my expeditions, they treat me with
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: a level of respect because I treat them with respect.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: People in countries in South America, Africa and Asia are
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: so happy to see another brown person checking and climbing.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: They don't make the normal assumptions of being a rich
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: white man. People have offered me additional information and have
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: showed me immense hospitality. And we're going to be talking
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: about her a bit more in a second. But she's
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: got a lot of great quotes and still got a
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: lot of greatquotes about always being questioned as being an expert,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Like they're always like, oh, it can't be you, but.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: You don't look like a climber. Excuse me, what does
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: that look like?
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: And I've been following again with the social media is
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: but a lot of hikers who have been doing special episodes,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: I guess, or doing specific things to show showcase whether
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: or not an area is safe for people of color,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: specifically black people. And I think that's a sad and
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: necessary both of those things. And we've talked about that
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: and travel wise, but specifically for climbing and for hiking
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: and climbing in wilderness a type of things talking about
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: whether or not you are safe because we are more isolated.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: We've talked about that as an issue.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: For women in general and for non binary people, but
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: for you know, black the black community, it's a whole
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: different conversation once again, whether it's welcoming in general. And
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: I find that interesting because this is that conversation of like, yeah,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: it's kind of for me as a person of color
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: when I see all white people. Don't get me wrong,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: I still have the privilege of not of being considered
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: the model minority. Do I get some looks, sure, but
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: I don't get as much discrimination as a black person would.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: I absolutely believe that, and I've seen it, but it's
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: still like the relief to see another person of color.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: We're kind of like, Hi, oh you made it so
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: maybe this is a little you know, like trying to
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: give us each other heads up. And it's definitely that
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: conversation of who is welcome and who was seen as
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: an expert because well, you don't look like ABC and D.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: So it's very interesting. I'm glad to hear they're making
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: changes and bringing some good, good noted difference in intersectional perspective.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely great quotes.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: She's also been very outspoken of, like we're gonna again,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: We're going to get to this more in a second.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: But like when she did this, it was pretty historic
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: and really didn't make news and it should have, right,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: so of course.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: And then we have named Doma Sharpa, who at the
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: age of seventeen, became the youngest woman to summit Mount
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Everest in two thousand and eight. She grew up in
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: a remote mountain village and Nepal, dreaming of climbing herself.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: And she said, quote, the Sharpa are known as mountain heroes,
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: and I always wanted to live up to my name.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: And apparently she did good job. My god, what was
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: I doing sitting on don't.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Want to think about.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: Then we have Sarah Kumalo.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Kumala became the first Black African woman to summit Everest
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Also a lot of great quotes, and then we did
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: want to wrap up with some more modern news. In
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: recent years, organizations run by women have come together to
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: lead all women summits of Everest. One such group operates
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: with a local Nepalese organization launched by Nepali entrepreneur Indira Bata.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: It employs all Napali women as guides and provides funding
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: for other local women to train guides. And this is
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: a pretty big deal because over of the over twenty
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: two thousand guides in the country, less than nine hundred
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: are women. It's pretty it's a good earning. This is
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: not a strict endorsement of this company or again of
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: climbing efforts, because I know that and itself is controversial,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: but just want to right mention it right again.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: We always want to think about the environmental impact, so
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: that's all we're talking about. But if you're something that
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: intrigues you make.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Sure you get your research.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Yes on again, if you're thinking this has been a
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: lot of white folks, you are correct, though we don't
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: want to erase what women of color have done. Still
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: of the about four thousand people who have some of
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: the Everest, only eight of them have been black. Again,
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: there are some efforts to change that, and yeah, there
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: are already people.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: Doing amazing things.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: Of course, just a reminder, so many conversations about this,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: but the opportunity, the affordability, accessibility, and probably just the
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: overall racism can be factors.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: Or why this is.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: And then one of these efforts, by the way, is
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: a group of black climbers and mountaineers called a Full Circle.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: In the words of a member, Rosemary Saul, it is
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: an expedition that is certainly about climbing, it is about
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: spending time in the mountains, but it's also about building community,
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: global community, and it's about changing the narrative of the
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: black community, particularly in the United States, and how we
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: interact with outdoor spaces. Yeah, and in twenty twenty two
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: they became the first all black team to summit Everest.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: There's also Brown Girls Climbing, which is a US organization
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: dedicated to introducing climbings to girls of color.
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: And you know, we've talked about the hiking.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Experience, wilderness experience with other organizations and why this is
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: important that they are able to build that community.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: It's beautiful to see.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, and a good source to check out complete with
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: people to follow on social media is melaninbasecamp dot com.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: And then in twenty twenty one, Soriah Sarhati Nelson, who
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: is working on a book about women African climbers, reported
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: on an Afghan mountaineering women's team stranded in Afghanistan after
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: the US left. When the Taliban was in charge. Previously,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: women and girls were not allowed to participate in sports,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: but in the post Taliban era they have fought to
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: compete and they have had successes. When the Taliban regained control,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: some started banning women from participating once again, and this
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: team's trapped.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: It was an.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Upsetting and very informative article, but it was kind of
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: using this team to look at what's going on in
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Afghanistan at large for women.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, obviously, again, this is one of the big
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: conversations of who has accessibility to doing these things and
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: why the numbers for those marginalized people are so low,
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: and how it's not their fault.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Is literally society's fault.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and definitely like.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Not to harp on this point, but harp on this point,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: like As the climbing of mountains has become more commercialized,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: more and more people are doing it, and I'm happy
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: to see like it's becoming more diversified. But as we've
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: said throughout, do your research, because we've all, I think
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of us have seen the pictures now of
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: like the line to suit Everest and the trash that's everywhere. Like, right,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: if you're going to do it, you have to be respectful,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: take care of the environment, think about what you're doing.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and also yeah, all that to understand that
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: if native people of that land are asking you something,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: not even asking you, but pleading with you, yes, to
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: not do something, Let's listen.
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: Let's listen.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I mean there's so many there's so
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: much we could talk about with this, but we're we've
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: got to stay our feminist. It's hard because I want
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: to talk about it, but those podcasts do exist, and
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: there is so much information out there about this, and
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: I am glad that I got to to share some mountaineers.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Except for the tragic but you know, yes, it happens.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: That's what the whole thing got started because I was
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: just curious.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Well, if we have anybody in our.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Audience who's a mountaineer who has climbed some mountains, we
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: would love to hear from you. Pictures too, Yes, oh
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: my gosh, yes, send us pictures. You can email us
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: at Steffidia mom Stuff at iheartmeia dot com. You can
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Instagram at stuff I Never Told You Things is always
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: to our super producer Christina.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Thank you Christina, and thank see you for listening.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Stuff on Ever Told Your Prediction?
• 38:39
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• 38:41
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