Latest / No Dirt No Flowers Podcast / Varietal Origin Series / Summit / Ft. Leslie Roy

Transcript

Varietal Origin Series / Summit / Ft. Leslie Roy · No Dirt No Flowers Podcast

0:00
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
0:02
of No Dirt No Flowers. On today's episode we
0:05
brought back the one and only Les Roy for another
0:08
edition of Varietal Origins. This week they'll
0:11
be discussing the history of the one and only
0:13
variety Summit, which was the first variety released
0:17
from the Latitude 46 breeding program back when
0:19
it was known as ADHA. They'll also discuss the
0:22
history of low trowel hops in the Moxie Valley
0:26
and the pros and cons of those. It's a very in
0:29
-depth, very squirrely episode, but as always,
0:33
very entertaining. Also, if you have any questions
0:37
you'd like to have answered on air by Mike and
0:39
or Drew, feel free to send them our way at ndnf
0:42
at royfarms .com. That's ndnf at royfarms .com.
0:48
Enjoy the pod. After what feels like a long hiatus,
1:00
we're back with Varietal Origin Story number
1:04
two, Summit. There's a few ideas for this one,
1:08
but we thought we'd go with a less controversial
1:12
one and one that we have hands -on experience
1:18
with. Les Roy on the mic giving us all the important
1:26
information on Summit. Hopefully we'll post this
1:29
picture online, but there is quite a bit of research
1:31
that went into this apparently. I think my responsibility
1:35
is very serious. I love it. And, you know, you
1:39
have the added benefit that I don't think anyone's
1:40
going to really be able to call you out on this
1:42
one because. I have all the paperwork. You have
1:44
all the paperwork and it's all your opinion.
1:47
No, these are substantiated with, that's why
1:50
the papers are here. They're substantiated. All
1:52
right. If I get into the unknown or the speculative.
1:57
The opinionated. I'll let you know. I'll let
2:00
you know. How will you know? I was around. All
2:05
right. Here we go. So, Summit. Where do we start?
2:11
Well, Summit's an interesting one. We can go
2:14
back before Summit. I mean, I can go off on a
2:17
lot of little tangents here, which I know you
2:18
do. We all know. Yeah. But people like your tangents.
2:22
So, what do you mean by go back pre -Summit?
2:25
Well, it goes back to... The whole market at
2:28
the time, you know, Summit came out, was bred
2:30
by Roger Jeske. Well, let's give some background
2:33
to the market at the time. I think that's important.
2:36
Okay. So we're looking at 98, 99, you know, 2000s,
2:41
early 2000s. So the market was pretty stretched.
2:44
It was pretty much an alpha market. While the
2:47
craft market was starting to grow, it was still
2:51
pretty small and it was using mostly public varieties.
2:54
There was not a lot of... proprietary varieties
2:56
at the time. You know, Amarillo came out in 1983.
3:02
Summit was patented in 2005. El Dorado didn't
3:07
come out until 2010. Citra wasn't released until
3:10
2008, even though it was crossed in 1990. Interesting.
3:15
So there's a lot of background in there. And
3:17
then Summit, you know, when Summit came out,
3:19
it was also, it wasn't bred for it, but it was
3:22
a semi -dwarf. and we did a lot of work with
3:25
low trellis with it so we'll dig a little bit
3:28
deeper into the market and then we'll give a
3:29
little bit of background to low trellis because
3:32
summit was the backbone of the american dwarf
3:36
hop association which is now latitude 46. yep
3:40
so market at the time highly competitive alpha
3:46
market traded globally highly influenced by the
3:50
strength or weakness of the dollar Correct. What
3:54
else would you add in there? Just cost structures
3:57
in general. I mean, Summit on low trellis was
3:59
very cost competitive. So when you say that,
4:04
I assume you mean that... It was all about a
4:07
kilogram of alpha or the cost of grams of alpha
4:10
in the final beer. That's ultimately what it
4:13
was. As you know, Summit was very, very stable.
4:17
So we're looking at a time when the merchants
4:20
generally... pelleted and extracted for the whole
4:24
year. And then you had CTZ come in on board.
4:29
It needed to be pelleted almost immediately after
4:32
harvest to preserve. It lost in six months. It
4:34
lost 50 % of its alpha. Summit hardly lost any
4:39
alpha in six months, and it was good for almost
4:41
a year. So it was a very processor -friendly
4:44
hop. Then it turned down as Tetra and downstream
4:49
products came into play. somebody became very,
4:52
very efficient at that, much more efficient than
4:54
CTZ. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves.
4:56
Yeah, a little bit, but just kind of set the
4:58
stage. Yeah. Okay, so going back to the beginning,
5:02
so Roger Jeske, who is... So I think it's important
5:05
to call out that it was a highly competitive
5:08
market. We're trading alpha globally, and it
5:16
was really important to have a low -cost... per
5:21
kilogram product because the margins were very
5:24
slim. That's a fair statement. And so one of
5:28
the ways that we're looking at creating efficiencies
5:31
within our growing systems was through low trellis.
5:36
Correct. And I specifically remember, correct
5:39
me if I'm wrong, that you took a trip over to
5:41
China and you're looking at, and there was talk
5:44
of China potentially coming into the market.
5:47
And, you know, we're running. on what their production
5:50
costs would be. I remember that we advanced,
5:54
well, got involved in our breeding program and
5:59
advanced some of those varietals and the production
6:01
systems so that we could potentially be competitive
6:04
with China or anybody else in the world. And
6:08
the way that we were doing that was specifically
6:10
targeting training, twining, and harvesting,
6:14
which are the three most labor -intensive. uh
6:17
times of the hop production not that i mean it's
6:22
one of those things where did summit and its
6:24
ability to be grown on low trellis was that the
6:28
goal or the outcome i think it was more the outcome
6:31
we once we figured out it was very productive
6:35
and then also the costs were cut in half so what
6:39
did the american dwarf hop association which
6:41
became the i can't even remember what the Our
6:46
forced name was in the middle. Oh, well, we had
6:52
the acronym ADHA. We kept ADHA, but we renamed
6:56
American Dwarf Hop Association. The Association
6:58
for the Development of Hop Agronomy. Yep. And
7:01
no one could ever remember it. No one could say
7:03
it. And so then we rebranded it into Latitude
7:05
46. So did you guys get involved with... this
7:12
germplasm that roger jesky had because you wanted
7:16
to have your own varietals or did you guys get
7:20
involved with roger jesky or did we get involved
7:24
with roger jesky back in the day because we're
7:26
specifically looking for dwarfing germplasm um
7:30
we got involved because roger came to us and
7:33
offered a semi -dwarf that no one else was interested
7:37
in and if you go back into the 70s hop union
7:40
was growing Had low trellis. Remember Big Blue?
7:44
Oh, yeah, Big Blue that we unearthed from Haas
7:47
had it at the time. Yeah, after they bought Hop
7:50
Union. After they bought Hop Union, and then
7:52
we grabbed that and threw a USDA grant, kind
7:55
of refurbished it for some of our initial R &D.
7:58
Right. So you had Hop Union back in the 70s doing
8:02
trials with low trellis, Galena, Clusters, and
8:06
Cascades. Those were the three they were working
8:07
with. And then in the 70s, Morford's Green Acres
8:11
planted clusters on a low trellis. And they had
8:15
been promised by Ryder that they would have a
8:18
harvesting machine for them, which never happened.
8:22
So Morford's ended up having to hand cut all
8:25
the vines down from the low trellis and haul
8:28
them in the machine. So that was a one -year
8:30
deal. So then during that time, then UK became
8:33
involved in low trellis. So low trellis always
8:35
had a following. and then when Roger found this
8:39
hop, I'll go into the breeding of it in a few
8:43
minutes, but it was a semi -dwarf, and no one
8:46
was interested in it, but he knew that we had
8:48
an interest, us and Morford, and he proposed
8:52
it to Gary, and then Gary came to me, and then
8:54
we worked together to further it. And then? Then
8:57
we planted it down along the drain and washed
9:00
it. Marion Drain? Yep. Watched it for three years.
9:04
Not our Marian drain. It would have been Morford's
9:05
Marian drain, which is down over the hill. Interesting.
9:09
So there was a specific interest in low trellis
9:14
or dwarfing slash semi -dwarfing germplasm when
9:17
you made the conscious decision to buy and plant
9:23
some. So we watched it for three or four years,
9:28
and it looked very promising. And as you know,
9:31
we went ahead and we ended up having, I think
9:33
at one time we had about 300 acres of low trellis.
9:36
Yeah, for a number of years that we farmed. Yeah,
9:40
about 300 acres of low trellis. I think it was
9:43
all Summit. Summit and some Cascade. Yeah, there
9:46
was one little block of Cascade. One that blew
9:48
over. I think a lot of it blew over at one point.
9:51
But that was more of the poles got routed out.
9:55
Yeah, I think that was one of the long -term
9:58
problems with... low trellis that we if we ever
10:01
go back into it we would have to resolve so you
10:05
know summit so going into the really briefly
10:07
we talked about roger jeskey roger worked he
10:11
graduated from wsu he also worked with haas he
10:14
worked with steiner he worked with various individual
10:17
growers and he also worked with us he also had
10:22
a little breeding plot in his backyard in sila
10:26
washington in the mid -1980s, or 90s, excuse
10:31
me. So it seems to be a common theme back in
10:35
those days, people crossing hops in their gardens
10:39
at home, which goes back into the way hops were
10:43
selected prior to the 1900s. That goes into another
10:48
story. But anyway, so what happened was what
10:52
Roger did... was he was also doing agronomic
10:56
work for Morford's, and there was a nugget field
11:01
that he was watching, and it was very seeded,
11:04
so he grabbed the seeds. And he evaluated the
11:08
groups of seed the following year in his garden,
11:11
and that created the male plant Matrix. Then
11:15
Matrix that year, which is a really quick development
11:21
of a variety, almost. unheard of so he had matrix
11:24
and he crossed that with zeus now zeus was not
11:28
a patented variety the zeus name is is a trademark
11:32
but not the variety itself is not patented so
11:35
it's a free public variety because after hop
11:38
union and uh ych or whichever it was at the time
11:43
ycr would have been got into the legal battle
11:47
over the patent of columbus tomahawk Zeus tried
11:52
to come in, or Steiner tried to come back in
11:53
with Zeus, and they couldn't do it. So Zeus was
11:56
an open variety, essentially. So then he crossed
12:00
matrix, and with Zeus, that would have been in
12:03
1998, yeah, 99. And then that produced the male
12:11
plant, Zion. You've heard some of these names
12:14
before. Yeah. So Zion was then crossed. the following
12:19
year, 2000, with Lexus. Now Lexus, this gets
12:25
crazy, Lexus was 50 % Zeus and 50 % 1958, the
12:30
male plant, which is from USDA, which we used
12:33
a lot in our breeding program for ADHA and Latitude
12:37
46. So that was a cross of Zeus, as I said, Zeus
12:41
in 1958. And that produced a group of seeds,
12:46
Summit being one of them. And Hallmark, remember
12:50
Hallmark? They were sisters. So really it was
12:54
Zion and Lexus that produced Summit. And then
12:59
that would have been in 2000. In 2001 we evaluated
13:03
it for three years and then we patented it in
13:05
2005. That's just a short version of it. It really
13:09
got a lot of attention. We had pretty much an
13:12
open architecture with it. We were licensing.
13:16
Slash fast and loose. Oh, yeah. So Roger Jeske
13:20
is the inventor of that one, by the way, on the
13:22
patent. And then it started to be used. We had
13:26
a dual licensing agreement at the time. We thought
13:29
we wanted to get it out. Partly we were starting
13:32
to do low trellis, and we felt that the more
13:34
people involved on low trellis, the faster we
13:38
would advance with our knowledge. Multiple paths
13:41
are better than one path. yeah so anyway as you
13:45
you're looking in front of there there's a all
13:47
the merchants we had dual we had a processor
13:49
license and a a grower license look at this the
13:54
who's who's of geez so in 2008 i'm looking at
13:58
a document here it says american dwarf hop association
14:00
board meeting december 23 2008 and in the licensing
14:06
agreements for summit it's basically everybody
14:10
Steiner, Hop Union, Brew Supply Group, Roy Farms,
14:13
Wyckoff, Green Acres, Darba Group, which was
14:16
Doug McKinnon, Yakima Chief, Warrior Ranches,
14:21
Goshi Farms, Peralt Farms, and John I. Haas.
14:25
Some of these were growing licenses and some
14:28
of these were processing licenses. Correct. And
14:31
some of them were both. And then look down the
14:33
next one. Future License Agreements for Summit
14:36
and Hedgerbush InBev. That was for Argentina.
14:40
They wanted to raise it down in Argentina for
14:44
kilmas. And then there's Steve Carpenter and
14:47
Steve Peralt that wanted to grow it organic,
14:50
apparently. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah, a lot of
14:53
them never came to a variation for various reasons.
14:56
You know, about that time, you start seeing,
14:59
gosh, you know, first gold came in and steiner
15:01
started coming in about 2007. It just got really
15:05
hectic. Citra came out in 2008. So there was
15:08
a lot of craziness going on at that time, you
15:12
know, varieties and stuff like that. You know,
15:15
then we tried, so we tried the processor grower
15:18
license, and it became so complicated to manage,
15:22
we eliminated and went to just one, the grower
15:24
contract. What happened was, in some cases...
15:27
Grower royalty only. Yeah, grower royalty only.
15:30
It was 25 cents per pound alpha. So what happened
15:34
was, well, we... We'd see where the hops went,
15:39
and we'd go to the processor, licensed processors,
15:41
well, you owe us a royalty. No, the grower's
15:44
supposed to pay that. So it became just very
15:47
problematic in trying to manage it, so we just
15:50
went to just on the grower's side. That was also
15:53
about the time when the craft beer market was
15:55
starting to go up a little bit faster, so we
15:57
tried to, we have all these licensing agreements,
16:02
and then we tried to see if we could get a...
16:06
Worked with BSG on its exclusive in some of the
16:09
craft markets. But no one knew how to use Summit.
16:12
It was such an unusual variety. By unusual, you
16:16
mean strongly onion? Yeah, that's true. Part
16:20
of the problem there was you like Talladega Nights,
16:26
you're like, I don't know what to do with my
16:27
hands. He's like, he's bubbling with papers and
16:31
I'm trying to take them out of his hands. And
16:33
he's like, I don't know what to do with my hands.
16:37
Liz, you've got to pull the mic over. Liz Roy
16:40
is in the podcasting studio with us today as
16:44
well. I've been ganged up today. All we need
16:46
is Andy here. You always feel ganged up on. No,
16:48
Andy's the perfect son. He doesn't gang up on
16:50
you, remember? Oh, yeah, he does, maybe. He's
16:53
an ass kisser. That was not in the notes, Andy.
16:59
We love you, Andy. We love you, Andy. You are
17:03
the perfect son. Speaking from the... Side tangent
17:07
from the road rambles, Andy text me, he goes,
17:10
when was I in the drunk tank? I loved that. I
17:14
text him, I was like, Andy, you're not a, what
17:16
was it, vampire? Energy vampire. I heard that
17:22
one, the drunk tank. What was that? I mean, really,
17:24
in a drunk tank? No. It's this make -believe
17:27
hierarchical kind of energy vampire list that
17:31
Drew and I developed. That's hilarious. Okay.
17:35
So going back to you also, you mentioned, you
17:37
know, all the people that were licensed for the
17:39
processes. We also at the time, we got the patent.
17:42
We applied for an international patent in the
17:44
EU. We had summit in Germany, France, Czech Republic,
17:49
Spain, and we were heading to Argentina. And
17:52
it was growing in popularity. I mean, was it
17:57
proven in all those areas? Well, there was so
18:01
much interest in lowering the cost because we
18:03
were getting squeezed. At that time, hops, you
18:06
were growing them for $4 ,000 to $5 ,000 an acre,
18:08
something like that. In some cases, we're still
18:13
growing them for $4 ,000 to $5 ,000 per acre.
18:15
It's funny. I looked at some price points we
18:18
were using at $37, you know, a kilo of alpha.
18:20
I'm going, jeez. Yeah. There was a lot of interest.
18:23
Czech Republic was very interested. They were
18:27
working with low trellis. In fact, the picker
18:30
that we ended up, a couple of pickers from there.
18:33
Of course, the UK was very far along. At that
18:36
time, we were getting the seeds from, we had
18:39
first gold come in, and then we had seeds from
18:42
dwarfs coming in from UK also, and pollen. Yeah,
18:46
so we had it all over the place. And it was,
18:48
I mean, CTZ was kind of starting to stumble a
18:51
little bit, you know? Well, what's funny is we've
18:55
talked about the death of CTZ for, what, 20 -some
18:58
years now? Well, it was an unknown because, remember,
19:00
in 97 is when Paul Ray Mildew came in. And Summit
19:04
was, at that time, tolerant, resistant? Oh, I
19:08
think it's highly resistant. I think you can
19:10
see some spots on it. You can kind of find spots
19:13
on a lot of varieties now. It's just they just
19:15
don't get into full -blown issues like they can
19:19
with CTZ. So I think that was part of the impetus
19:24
around the rise of Summit because there wasn't
19:27
many other things out there at the time. As you
19:30
know, at one time in 2013, Summit was the number
19:34
four variety in the United States, a variety
19:36
of acreage. And what was the total acreage? About
19:39
2 ,800, over 2 ,800. We were 7 .7 % of the U
19:44
.S. crop. Yep, just in that variety. Yep. And
19:48
then there was being raised on low trellis. We
19:51
were the only ones growing it. No. Morford's
19:54
did. Morford's grew a little bit, but we had
19:56
the majority on low trellis, and then I think
19:59
that was probably 20 % of it was grown on low
20:05
trellis, something like that, acreage -wise.
20:07
Yeah, I mean, I think by then Wyckoff had come
20:11
in as an owner in ADHA, and so they were a big
20:17
planter of it and did very well down in. Down
20:20
in Prosser, I mean, you could expect 18 % to
20:23
20 % alpha. Yeah, I mean, I think you can still
20:26
get 18 % to 20 % alpha. I remember we experienced
20:30
lower yields than Prosser did. I think in Prosser
20:35
they were getting, like, what, like 15 bales
20:38
at 19 alpha? Yeah. So 3 ,000 pounds an acre at
20:41
19 alpha? Yeah. No more than that. More than
20:44
that. And then I think we collectively saw the
20:48
yields drop off, and then we simultaneously got
20:53
into the craft beer boom. And so a lot of U .S.
20:58
growers, including ourselves, pulled back from
21:00
alpha. Well, that's when the rise of Magnum and
21:04
Hercules in Germany. Because at the time, we
21:09
produced about most of the alpha of the world
21:11
with very little craft, and Germany was more.
21:15
not craft hops, they were their noble hops, and
21:17
with a little bit of alpha. And so, I mean, their
21:20
alpha variety at the time was probably pearly,
21:22
which, you know, 7%, 8%. And then Magnum comes
21:27
along and takes off. Then, of course, Hercules,
21:30
and then there's a few others that have come
21:33
in on both sides of it. So it just kind of just
21:36
got lost in the shuffle in Germany. You know,
21:38
it became the alpha producer, and we became the
21:40
supplier to the craft beer. And so a lot of things
21:43
happened at that time. i think the other thing
21:45
too is that was pre virus free propagation and
21:50
but it became very it was one of the problems
21:53
we had when we were trying to establish it in
21:56
the eu was the fact that it was that's when they
22:00
first started testing for viroids virus and they
22:03
picked it up on summit and we've since learned
22:06
that it's for whatever reason it's very hard
22:09
to get Summit Clean. It's been the most problematic
22:13
variety that we've cleaned up so far. I think
22:17
we got it now, and we're going to be expanding
22:21
it this next year again, but it took like five
22:26
years or more of trying to get this thing clean.
22:30
Yeah, I think it had a whole multitude of viruses
22:33
in it. Oh, it was loaded. Testing got a little
22:39
better and all that kind of thing. Then Summit
22:43
turned out to be very, very efficient in, as
22:47
I said earlier, downstream products. In the production
22:49
of Tetra. Tetra. Very efficient. And then Pico
22:54
came along, which is Pico's out of the same breeding
22:57
program of ours, with a very different background
23:00
as far as genetics. But for some reason, we end
23:05
up with these varieties that are very... very
23:08
efficient in the downstream process that's what
23:10
pico's used mostly for tetra yeah pico came in
23:13
as a replacement for summit and then we have
23:16
a new one called super pico that we're just kind
23:18
of calling it internally right now that could
23:23
end up replacing pico for tetra but um where
23:26
we're finding the efficiencies we don't know
23:28
if the efficiencies are there with super pico
23:30
yet this year we'll test them but with summit
23:32
and pico certainly there's efficiencies in the
23:36
is it the hydrogenization it's less palladium
23:39
yeah they use less it uses less palladium and
23:42
so i don't know so that's been the major market
23:46
for it i do think it's important to note that
23:49
summit did find a home in that craft beer boom
23:53
as an early harvested variety and so because
23:59
it does hold both in the field and in storage,
24:03
we would usually push the picking date pretty
24:06
late on that to get the alpha up to 19, 20, or
24:09
even 21%. But if you harvest it earlier, you
24:12
get lower alpha and you get more aromatics, less
24:15
onion garlic. And so we have some brewers that
24:19
want it for that right now, which is why we're
24:22
putting it back in. Yeah, I think Morford's did
24:24
some early pick summits for a while and saw some
24:28
interest in it that way. Yeah, so it's had a
24:32
very unique history. It was around the world.
24:35
We had it in Spain. They were pretty excited
24:38
about it there. Do you think that if the U .S.
24:43
market didn't become focused on aroma, do you
24:49
think Summit would have continued to grow or
24:51
hold its place, or do you think? That's a good
24:54
question. Because really, our focus... away from
25:00
Alpha in the United States was a function of
25:03
Germany having Nugget and Hercules primarily.
25:06
Not really. I think it was more to do that there
25:08
was more return to be had in the HPCs. Yeah.
25:13
And all the new variety. And to some degree,
25:15
the Publix. But really, the HPCs drove the majority
25:20
of the decisions in the U .S. I know. Yep. And
25:25
so the returns were so much higher. you know,
25:28
on those craft varieties. In hindsight, I think
25:30
we should have maintained more of a balanced
25:32
portfolio and not put all the chips in. Well,
25:35
you think about how many hundreds and hundreds
25:38
and hundreds and hundreds of million dollars
25:40
were put into infrastructure, which needed to
25:42
be done, you know. Well, in some cases it needed
25:46
to be done. In other cases, we probably didn't
25:48
need the infrastructure. And some of it's still
25:50
sitting there. Yeah. And then all the changeovers.
25:53
So with all the planting costs. What did you
25:57
say? It was $5 ,000 to change over a field? Well,
26:02
you factor in the loss production and all that.
26:05
I mean, we used to get 80 % in the first year,
26:08
and now it takes two years to really kind of
26:11
get things squared away. I think the other thing
26:13
you mentioned about summit yields going down,
26:16
I do think that part of it that you've hit on
26:20
through your practices with Azaka and some of
26:23
the other ones is... For some reason, these semi
26:26
-dwarfs do not need as much water. They're much
26:28
more efficient. Yeah, way more efficient. You
26:30
end up deteriorating the yield if you water them.
26:33
Which could be part of the summit. That's what
26:35
I'm really curious to look at. Yeah. This kind
26:39
of like new wave of summit that we're planting
26:41
that's cleaned up of viruses. Adena is probably,
26:45
what, 20 % less water? Easy? Yeah. Well, your
26:49
Zaka, you finally figured that one. Both of those
26:52
are, generally speaking, 20 % less water. Yeah.
26:55
Meg and I have had some, you know, the roots
26:58
are clustered up closer to the surface. We thought
27:00
maybe that might be part of it. Sounds like you
27:03
guys had a highly speculative conversation. Well,
27:06
you got to start somewhere. Yeah. You go from
27:08
speculation to facts. I don't want to get too
27:12
in the weeds here, but I'm curious, what do you
27:15
think the roots close to the surface, why do
27:18
you think that it's using less water with roots
27:20
closer to the surface? Sounds like you guys didn't
27:25
get very far. We didn't get very far. But the
27:30
thing is, we know that almost all the activity,
27:34
hormone only and everything else, water, take
27:38
up is in that top six inches. Six inches to eight,
27:42
yeah. So it seems to be they have a much more
27:47
fibrous wort system. But then how do you factor
27:51
in that the top six to eight inches dries out
27:55
or varies greater? That's true. And so I think
28:01
with drip, you, on a daily basis, you've been
28:04
able to, or you're gating a Zaka on a daily basis?
28:09
Twice a day? Once a day? Depends on the infrastructure.
28:14
I would prefer to irrigate it twice a day in
28:17
rotation. I see we're... We've squirreled off.
28:22
Yeah, we've squirreled off. I should have brought
28:24
my little cup in for you. Squirrel cup. No. I
28:28
mean, I see you have a lot of papers here. Yeah.
28:32
Well, I mean, it depends if you want to go how
28:35
far you want to go into. Talking about the...
28:37
matrix you know and it was in an op it was an
28:40
open male and from a nugget background and it
28:44
produced matrix which is the male then you go
28:47
into all these other ones zion lexus it's just
28:49
interesting all these genetics that were in our
28:53
g uh germplasm then we brought in male male pollen
28:58
from the uk you know with uh we're working with
29:00
peter darby on low trellis who did a lot of work
29:03
he's probably the one remember talking to peter
29:05
when he came over He was inspired by the Hopp
29:08
Union low trellis. Oh, really? Yeah. That's where
29:11
they took off? Yeah. Anyway, he had, you know,
29:14
first gold was really the true, true dwarf, which
29:16
we had here in the United States. We still have
29:18
it. Yeah. But it is a dwarf. It is a dwarf. Like
29:23
four feet dwarf. Like ornamental dwarf. Yeah.
29:25
Just never could take off. Anyway, so our genetics
29:31
are very unique. You know, Zaka, which is one
29:34
of ours, came out of... Wasn't the agreement
29:37
on first gold is that we could only sell it to
29:39
Anheuser -Busch? Yeah, something like that. We
29:42
had a lot of restriction back in those days.
29:45
And then we worked with Ferrum a lot with seeds
29:48
and stuff. We're still working with Ferrum. Yep.
29:51
They're a good partner. Well, that goes back
29:54
to Peter Glendening, which is he and I worked
29:58
together quite closely after Powdered Mildew
30:00
came in. And then he has a low trellis. plot
30:04
right next to his house i don't know if you ever
30:06
met i'd go over there and visit with him and
30:09
we'd walk through these fields and he had you
30:11
know harley quinn and all these things that they
30:13
come up have out now and uh first gold was one
30:17
of them but the problem was he they wanted us
30:19
to raise first gold in the united states we said
30:23
well he said the problem is we have to put him
30:25
in a quarantine for three years then two or three
30:27
years to establish him that's six years you've
30:29
lost six years of potential marketing you'd be
30:32
better off to grow them here in the UK and send
30:34
them to us and we'll sell them, which never really
30:38
quite happened. Because the UK market has just
30:42
really gone down, acreage -wise especially. I
30:46
haven't checked in with the UK low trellis. It's
30:52
not as... Well, I mean, I haven't checked in
30:55
with the UK low trellis lately, and if it's still
30:59
a viable... production system because there was
31:02
only a couple growers there that were heavily
31:04
invested in it, right? Right. And I think that
31:07
one of the biggest ones has left the industry.
31:11
I don't think, probably the UK was the largest
31:14
low trellis acreage in the world, but really
31:17
it has kind of gone away. And then for a hot
31:20
minute there, China had some harvesters there.
31:23
They were looking at going heavy into low trellis.
31:25
Well, after we went to, I think it was probably
31:27
around 2000, no, when was that? I'd have to go
31:31
back when we had the Chinese IHCC meeting in
31:35
the hop area. And they raised hops over there
31:37
on a 9 -foot trellis anyway, or 10 -foot, because
31:42
they hand -harvest them and put them in big bags
31:44
and carry them to the picket machine. Wow, it's
31:48
amazing. And what happened was, so you have these
31:52
fields that were probably 30, 40 acres, but every
31:55
three, they'd assign a family to three or four
31:58
rows. All these little markers on this. And so
32:01
the families would take care of training it,
32:04
keeping the weeds out. And so you had all these
32:06
different things in there. I remember walking
32:09
through with Yohan Picklemeyer across this little
32:11
field, and he goes, Nugget, that's a magnum over
32:14
there. Didn't have Hercules yet. Nice. Yeah.
32:19
So it was interesting. And then, like you said
32:24
earlier, there was a lot of fear about China.
32:27
But it just never quite materialized, mostly
32:30
because of transportation issues and quality
32:33
issues. You know, Haas had a big presence there.
32:36
Steiner did. Haas built an extract plant where
32:40
Charlie Matt was involved in. And I think they
32:44
still have a presence there. CalSec was going
32:46
to put a processing plant in that area, not necessarily
32:50
for Chinese hops, but for duty issues. That never
32:54
happened. So I think China, while it's a big
32:56
beer market, has not really, on the growing side,
33:00
they do some, there's no doubt, but it hasn't
33:02
really changed much. So talk a little bit more
33:06
about Roger Jeske, because I remember that guy
33:08
being an interesting individual. Roger was very
33:11
knowledgeable. He was an agronomist. He worked
33:17
for Haas for about four or five years. Then he
33:21
worked for Steiner, and he was working for individual
33:22
growers. Like I said, he had the backyard crosses
33:26
he was making. In fact, if you look up Roger
33:30
Jeske under patents, he has like, oh, my gosh.
33:35
In front of me, I think Delta, Super Galena.
33:39
But he was involved in all these varieties. Here's
33:43
the ones I was able to find for sure. So Bravo,
33:46
Apollo, Super Galena, Delta. Calypso. And there
33:51
was more goes on and on. And then in a lot of
33:53
cases, Joe Perlott was involved in it, then Paul
33:58
Matthews. So they usually had, it was Roger first
34:01
and then co -inventing. And then, you know that
34:04
Azaka has Leslie Roy and Gary Morford as the
34:08
inventors. Oh, good job. We had some very unique.
34:13
Apparently, we figured out how to grow a Zaka
34:15
better because he said that it was only a 2 ,200
34:18
to 2 ,300 pound per acre variety. Yeah. It's
34:22
probably overwatering. I mean, people were irrigating.
34:27
I remember this side tangent. I remember one
34:31
of the first things, maybe this set my course,
34:33
but one of the first things is I was walking
34:37
around or driving around the ranch and I walked
34:40
into yard Roy 14. And I called you and I'm like,
34:45
what are we doing in here? I was like, there
34:47
is just puddled water everywhere. And you're
34:50
like, oh, it's fine. And then you like went into
34:52
like for years, you'd go into these explanations
34:54
about, well, the water cones out and spreads
34:56
out. And I was like, yeah, I can wrap my head
34:59
around that. I still can't wrap my head around
35:01
the fact that there's standing water around the
35:04
root masses. And that's why I'm here and you're
35:07
over there. Oh, geez. Things change. Yeah. So,
35:13
okay, so Roger Jeske had his fingers in a lot
35:17
of things. Were there, I mean, yeah, what was,
35:24
it seems like he was doing work for a lot of
35:27
different people. Yeah, we bought multiple tranches
35:31
of his varieties that he had crossed. So initially,
35:36
of course, it was Summit. I can tell you what
35:38
we paid for it. Well, yeah, what did we pay?
35:41
$90 ,000. $90 ,000 for the variety? Yeah. Seems
35:45
like that was probably well spent. Yeah. And
35:47
then we would buy rootstocks and other dwarfs,
35:51
some of the dwarf stuff, and those other transactions.
35:55
I think there was three or four. Well, it ended
35:57
with, did he want to get out of breeding or retire
36:00
or he was going to work for Steiner or something?
36:02
He was going to work for Steiner. And so there
36:05
was an agreement about non -competes and stuff
36:09
in that one. He decided just to get rid of all
36:13
this stuff and kind of focused on Steiner and
36:16
the process. Supposedly, he sold us all of his
36:19
low trellis, dwarfine, semi -dwarfine germplasm.
36:24
Supposedly. Correct. And we have a document that
36:27
says that he did. Do we know that he did not?
36:32
Don't know that for a fact. But no one else has
36:35
come out with low trellis or any other semi -dwarfs.
36:38
But what's interesting about semi -dwarf, so
36:41
I talk about Peter Darby, and then when he came
36:44
over and we were doing our assessments of potential
36:47
new varieties, he had six criteria that were
36:51
important for the success of low trellis. He
36:55
gave us five of them, but he wouldn't give us
36:57
number six. Oh, geez. So, you know, of course,
37:01
the internal, as you well know, the internal
37:03
distance on semi -dwarfs are very close. Yep.
37:06
Six, seven inches, maybe less. the hops have
37:09
a pendulum -type arrangement. So when you pick
37:14
them and the bars go up, the hops are exposed
37:17
and are picked very easily. To put that in layman's
37:20
terms, the hops all hang down. Correct. Instead
37:25
of at different angles. That's what I said. You
37:28
said pendulum. Continue. Continue. And then you
37:31
also was that the hops would... hopped from the
37:37
top to the bottom, which we know. There's all
37:40
kinds of other varieties, Adina, that hop all
37:42
the way down to the ground. That was important.
37:45
That's number three. And then number four was
37:48
just good cone structure, you know, the basic
37:51
stuff, pickability. Meaning that the cones aren't
37:55
fluffy. They're really tight. And then also the
37:59
leaf -to -hop ratio. So we did somewhere in there.
38:04
Is that five? Huh? Is that five? Yep. It was
38:07
a sixth one. Maybe one day I'll go track them
38:10
down and find out what that number six is. You
38:13
should. Yep. And then, of course, there was all
38:18
these new varieties coming out, watering them.
38:21
We had problems with low trellises, you all know,
38:23
trying to. There's inherent problems with the
38:26
system. Yeah, there's pluses and minuses. I think
38:30
the biggest, the first hurdle was that we needed
38:33
a. Picker. yeah a more purpose -built picker
38:37
that was suited for the u .s production systems
38:42
um because we originally unearthed uh big blue
38:47
from hawes that came from hop union and then
38:50
we got a usda grant to retool that and just basically
38:54
get it back running yep so we used that for a
38:57
season on some r d blocks and then we imported
39:01
a uk designed picker that was manufactured in
39:06
the Czech Republic correct and then we used that
39:08
for a season and we could quickly quickly see
39:12
that it was not going to hold up to the rigors
39:16
of yeah the industrialized nature of our production
39:20
system so then we went and worked with a equipment
39:24
manufacturer that worked in the grape industry
39:27
and over, I don't know, what, five, six years,
39:31
are indeed these mobile harvesters that were...
39:36
Heavy. Yeah, they were very heavy. And so, yeah,
39:41
so some of the issues with that was the drip,
39:46
how we had it. We had elevated drip tape on the
39:49
bottom wire. Yep. And it would oversaturate the
39:53
crowns. Yep. The other issue was that... If you
39:57
had male vines in the yard, the seeds would drop
40:00
straight down instead of down into the middle
40:04
of the row is what happens with a... You have
40:07
a lot of off -type. Yeah, so you end up getting
40:09
increasing levels of off -types. And then also
40:13
creating a wet zone around the pole. Yeah, well,
40:18
that was the elevated drip right on top of the
40:21
pole, deteriorated the poles, which... then led
40:24
to some of the fields getting blown down in the
40:27
wind because the poles deteriorated, even though
40:29
they were pressure treated. And then the other
40:32
one, which wasn't really a big issue, it was
40:34
just more of a management, an additional level
40:37
of management, was making sure that the yards
40:40
were dried out but not too dry when you brought
40:43
those mobile harvesters into the field. Yeah,
40:46
correct. So I think there's ways around most
40:51
of those. Also, too, circling back i remember
40:55
that we made the decision to not put those yards
40:59
back in when they blew down because they didn't
41:02
all blow down but um well the other one of them
41:05
did and so like we made the decision to not put
41:07
that up back up and then quickly got out of low
41:10
trellis because because craft beer was taken
41:13
off and you had all these new varietals citra
41:15
mosaic and a lot of other ones that We felt that
41:20
we couldn't compete with. We didn't have enough
41:22
low trellis germplasm in the program at the time.
41:26
Now we have a handful of varieties that would
41:31
work on low trellis that span alpha and aroma.
41:36
And one of the other problems was with low trellis
41:39
was the movement to a new variety, trying to
41:44
get... If you had to change variety, the cost
41:47
of it was horrendous, trying to get that root
41:50
mass out and then off types. I think most of
41:53
them... I forgot about the changeover costs.
41:56
Oh, that was horrible. That was probably the
41:58
impetus to really leave. No, it wasn't. It was
42:01
the market. Well, our inability to make the changeover...
42:07
Our inability to profit in an environment where
42:10
people were being wildly profitable was the main
42:13
reason. Yep. Then one of the other things, too,
42:17
was that we've made about two or three different
42:21
changeovers. So when white spacing came over,
42:25
low trellis had come in, and it was starting
42:28
to make a little bit of headway, and then white
42:31
spacing came in and dripped. So that took away
42:34
all the advantage that low trellis had. Then
42:37
we came in. Say that again. So what happened
42:39
was in the 70s when we started going to, you
42:43
know, thanks to pat pavilla who really came that
42:47
was his idea anyway when those came when that
42:50
came out we reduced our costs substantially per
42:53
acre you know you could use wide you're making
42:56
equipment that was 14 foot wide or even 12 foot
42:59
for some people and so you lower the cost and
43:04
so the cost of low trellis compared to um you
43:08
know the conventional way was huge But then the
43:11
comparison between low trellis and white spacing
43:14
with drip wasn't as big. So the advantages were
43:18
gone. And then the same thing happened when we
43:21
went to these new varieties. It wasn't so much
43:25
the same as economics, but the deal was, so we
43:29
had Summit, and everybody was heading to all
43:31
these aroma varieties, and we couldn't make the
43:34
switch over. It was too high risk. Because we
43:38
didn't know what would Citra do on a low trellis.
43:42
No idea. Yeah. I remember we had some here. We
43:46
tried Amarillo here. We tried Amarillo. Yeah.
43:50
That worked from what I remember. Yeah, it was
43:52
here in Moxie. Yeah. Amarillo worked. Azaka worked.
43:58
Yep. I mean, Azaka was originally selected on
44:00
low trellis. Right. Summit worked. Cascade worked.
44:06
Mm -hmm. Trying to think of what else we tried
44:10
on. Nugget was. Nah, nugget didn't work. Economically.
44:15
It was interesting. I have a report. You can
44:17
grow anything on Latrella. So just because of
44:19
the growth habits of the different varietals,
44:23
it's like sometimes it's just really hard to
44:26
time it so that you get enough crop off of that.
44:29
Okay. So you have no labor. You have no twining.
44:31
You have no training. You have no, the picking
44:34
costs. I mean, the amount of man hours involved
44:37
in. doing low trellis is about less than half.
44:41
No. Yeah. I mean, it's going to take some investment.
44:47
It's going to take some money, you know, lots
44:49
of money to revisit, you know, the varieties
44:52
and things like that. But it's interesting that,
44:56
I mean, Summit, going back to Summit, in that
44:58
period of time, in 06, 07, 08, all that, it was
45:03
such a, it was the variety. The driver. back
45:07
then was pounds of alpha. What you could produce,
45:11
a kilogram of alpha, or what the cost to the
45:15
brewery in the kettle. And so then you look,
45:19
and then you start, we know that the Summit as
45:23
well as probably Pico are going to be 5 % to
45:27
10 % more efficient in the downstream hydrogenation.
45:30
It's higher than that. Yeah, it could be. It
45:35
depends on the process. Some people were receiving
45:39
benefits from using Summit. Others didn't. What
45:43
was that? Talk more about that. I wouldn't want
45:47
to use names, but we had people that did not
45:49
see the efficiency and they always wanted to
45:51
use ETC rather than Summit. I'm excited to see
45:56
Summit. Will it be out this year? Yeah. We'll
46:00
be back on our ranch this year. I mean, I think
46:05
one of the questions that our listeners are going
46:07
to have is, were the summit rhizomes picked up
46:11
at a bar and put in the trunk of your car? No.
46:16
No. That was River. Yeah. Well, we came. I mean,
46:23
there's a lot of backyard hop breeding going
46:26
on during that period of time. If you look back,
46:29
it was interesting that I was doing some reading
46:31
on hop breeding, the history of hop breeding,
46:34
which really didn't get started until the early
46:36
1900s. This Mr. Salmon, he was a UK guy. Before
46:41
that, you just, whatever, if you went out and
46:43
you saw a hop that looked good, you grabbed it
46:45
and you planted more of them. So that was the
46:48
selection process, which is kind of similar to
46:51
today in some ways. And then he started looking
46:54
at different attributes and how they were, passed
46:58
on to the next generation, that became the foundation
47:01
for hop breeding. But prior to that, it was just
47:05
selection, you know. Yeah. I see here that you
47:08
have Pico down, and it says the people that identified
47:13
it were Jason and Gene Probasco. Yes. Well, okay,
47:18
that's interesting because ADHA at the time,
47:21
starting in, I think, 2005. Okay, prior to that,
47:26
we had Roger Jeske doing crosses for us. He was
47:30
actually employed by us, plus among other people.
47:34
But we had a contract with him. And then he went
47:39
to Steiner's. So then we approached the young
47:42
upcoming hop breeding company, HBC. I think they
47:47
call it the Joint Hop Breeding Company at one
47:49
time, JHBC. But that was Jason Haas and Yakima,
47:53
the chief ranchers that formed. So we approached
47:56
them to do our work for us. And so for about
48:00
five, six years, the work was being done down
48:03
in Toppenish by Jason, but Gene was part of it
48:07
too. All of our collections were down there,
48:10
males, females, everything. Yep, and so they
48:13
would select for us, and the goal or the focus
48:19
was low trellis. Yeah, low trellis alpha. And
48:21
so for a while there, we were the only ones doing
48:23
low trellis, and it wasn't a conflict of interest
48:26
for them. But as soon as we made the switch to
48:30
high trellis as well. Once we started saving
48:34
low trellis aromas as well as high trellis aromas,
48:39
then the break happened. Yeah. Which I understand.
48:42
Yeah, yeah, that's fine. There's no hard feelings.
48:44
But I think we couldn't continue collaborating
48:47
on that at the time because. We essentially became
48:52
a competitor as soon as we chose to start selecting
48:55
high trellis aroma. Which brought Megan and Jamie
48:58
on board permanently. So they've been with us
49:02
since then and doing a great job. What else about
49:05
Summit? I don't know. It'll just be interesting
49:09
to watch. We should get a brewer to talk about
49:12
it. Yeah. Some breweries really like that hop.
49:15
That would be interesting. That was a problem
49:18
when we had, you know, we did an exclusive with
49:21
BSG. I remember that. Yeah, to go into the aroma
49:25
market, and no one knew how to use it. I mean,
49:27
it was kind of placed wrong. You know, it's kind
49:30
of a shotgun approach. You know, everyone gets
49:32
some and produce a beer, and, ah, I don't like
49:35
it, I don't like it, or it worked over here,
49:37
it didn't work there. So, really, we had some
49:39
problems, and then we had a lot of different
49:42
marketing strategies. Well, I mean, that was
49:44
one of the Achilles heel of the breeding program
49:46
is that we never had a really strong strategy.
49:51
And so it was like, you know, in the interest
49:53
of wanting everybody to make their own decisions,
49:56
we didn't have enough control over the variety.
50:01
And so you had varying quality, varying harvest
50:04
dates, varying profiles, which we've learned
50:09
through that. Now we have much more control over
50:13
the quality side of things. But, I mean, this
50:16
is somewhat related to Summit, somewhat related
50:18
to the other varieties in the breeding program.
50:21
But can you explain your free market philosophy
50:24
that drove the breeding program for a number
50:27
of years? Well, as I said earlier, part of it
50:32
was that, especially in the low trellis side,
50:35
we felt that it was the more people involved
50:38
in it. the faster it would advance in knowledge
50:43
and capabilities. I feel like that's a very diplomatic
50:46
way of describing your position. I'd like you
50:49
to expand on it a little bit more. Well, no,
50:52
I truly felt that way. Now, of course, on the
50:56
other side, the free market was, you know, we
51:00
felt that really the more people growing it,
51:03
the better off it was. I mean, we're now as polarized.
51:08
Then, as we are now, I mean, now it's become,
51:10
you know, it seems like each farm or each person's
51:14
got to have a variety of their own. Yeah, you
51:16
just sent me out that sheet. There's like six
51:19
new varieties out there. Siegel's got a new one,
51:21
and Hot Products Australia has a new one, and
51:24
everybody's got a new one right now. So it's
51:28
interesting, whereas, you know, public variety,
51:31
when you go back, I think you're going to have
51:34
a podcast on public versus private, I think.
51:36
I don't know. I mean, I think it's a common topic
51:43
that we seem to discuss. I don't know if it's
51:48
private versus public because I think you need
51:50
both. I mean, that's the reason private got started
51:54
was the public was not moving fast. They were
51:56
moving in one direction and the world was moving
51:59
somewhere else. And you can't blame one or the
52:01
other. But, I mean, there's no doubt that the
52:04
private ones can move quicker. The public ones,
52:07
you know, were driven by other factors. It becomes
52:13
– Well, in general, in my opinion, the public
52:18
breeding programs incentivize not solving the
52:21
problem. The private breeding programs incentivize
52:26
solving the problem. Very true. Very true. That's
52:29
a nice way. But going back to the free market,
52:31
I just – that's more of my economic background.
52:34
You know, I was an economist. graduated with
52:36
economics. So those guys influenced me. I mean,
52:42
I felt that, I mean, to my own detriment sometimes,
52:46
you know, during that time, but the more people
52:49
involved, the more open it was, the better off
52:50
everyone is. We've lost a lot of transparency
52:53
in our industry, and I think it's really starting
52:56
to hurt. People don't know what's going on, and
53:00
they're making decisions that are... Dutch and
53:03
Manor, not only to themselves, but to the industry
53:05
in general. That's my two bits for the day. I
53:11
mean, we've tried going, as you outlined, try
53:15
to go free market completely, but there was so
53:17
many, there's too many players in these things.
53:21
You know, as an example, if we, which we faced,
53:25
you know, if we have multiple people buying a
53:28
Zaka, whether it's breweries. And I'm not blaming
53:31
anyone. This is just the way it works. Anyone,
53:33
merchants and everything else. And each one's
53:35
carrying inventory, especially when these varieties
53:37
are traded for so small. You know, let's say,
53:40
what's a Zaka? Four or five hundred acres? Maybe
53:43
it'll get to a thousand. I think we feel that
53:47
the, like a stabilized demand is probably. Okay,
53:53
well, I'll finish on my thought was that. You
53:56
know, the breweries are getting bigger. And so
53:59
if you have a variety a brewery likes, they become
54:02
the major buyer of it. So if they're satisfied
54:05
and you have a good crop and you have 10 % more,
54:08
where does it go? If you only have three customers,
54:10
let's say there are four customers, even 10 customers,
54:12
and you come with an extra 10%, you have nowhere
54:15
to go. You know, you've seen how some owners
54:19
have dealt with it by diverting it into, you
54:22
know, generic alpha. I mean. If I had a surplus
54:26
of Adina or Azaka, I would just juice it because
54:29
you've already made your margin. Interesting.
54:33
I have to think about that one for a while. It's
54:36
like, why get greedy? If you're managing the
54:39
variety and you end up with more than you thought
54:42
and you've already made your margin and hit your
54:48
numbers, don't get greedy. I don't disagree.
54:53
Yeah, I mean, a Zaka, we figure that's probably
54:56
1 .2 or about a 1 million pound variety right
55:02
now. Which is significant. I mean, it's significant
55:07
to us. Yeah, it's 2 .5 % of the United States.
55:11
It was higher when we were running it through
55:14
more distributors, but everybody's got, well.
55:17
We stumbled on that one, but we, I don't know,
55:20
that's a whole story in and of itself is like,
55:22
how do you position a variety across distributors
55:26
and get everybody to be aligned on it? Because
55:29
to your point on free market, it's like, well,
55:31
we weren't doing that. And then we were doing
55:34
it. And then people started to get angry because
55:37
the other person had it and they were undercutting
55:40
the market and then they didn't want to carry
55:42
it anymore. And then, so we had to make the decision
55:44
on. Do we go with less or do we go with one?
55:48
And then it went down an acreage pretty significantly
55:54
there. I think the Urello story probably is one
55:57
that was one of the most interesting varieties
55:59
we produced. What about that one? Well, that
56:02
one, everyone was excited about Urello. It was
56:05
a crappy variety. That one was nicknamed Banana
56:08
Hammock, by the way. Was it? Banana Hammock.
56:11
It smelled like bananas. Yeah. But those people
56:14
liked it, so you have to fill the pipeline up.
56:17
It was a crappy variety. It was not a grower
56:19
-friendly variety, for sure. It was probably
56:22
loaded with disease like everything else that
56:24
we had at the time. Yeah. And so once that pipeline
56:28
was filled and the demand was there, we kind
56:30
of overgrew it, and then it went down to its
56:33
core demand, and then we had this big run -up,
56:36
and then we had to backtrack out of it. How many
56:39
acres a year really did we have? I don't know.
56:42
which we're cleaning that one up too yeah related
56:45
to summit and free market and the what seemed
56:50
like a large amount of interest in that variety
56:53
at the time looking at the list of licenses and
56:57
you know the fact that big brewers were interested
57:00
in buying it how much of your decision to keep
57:04
that more open was because large breweries wanted
57:10
more choice in who they sourced from. Probably
57:13
that was by the last part, more choices. In fact,
57:16
in our royalty agreements, you know, because
57:18
by then, you know, Dave Whitehouse was with us.
57:20
So as part of that whole philosophy opened up,
57:24
didn't put a restriction on the volumes for Summit,
57:29
for Alpha Fridays. Yeah, we never managed volume
57:32
or anything. It was just the royalty. It was
57:35
only 25 cents per. pound alpha so it's it's nothing
57:39
like the thousand dollar ones they have today
57:41
very good but uh so we turned it loose so it
57:46
could go out and compete for the united states
57:48
as well as for the individual growers that raised
57:50
it then you know like you said everyone just
57:53
kind of took it took a right turn we're still
57:55
going straight or maybe left turn whatever and
57:59
everyone took a right turn towards craft which
58:00
was much more profitable because fighting it
58:03
out in the alpha market was not fun at those
58:05
days I don't remember the math, but I remember
58:07
something stuck with me from that time we were
58:11
playing around with low trellis, and there was
58:13
more downside risk and less upside potential
58:19
on low trellis, which makes sense because...
58:22
In what way? Like in a down or depressed market,
58:27
you could maintain your cost structure and your
58:31
profitability better than you could capitalize
58:34
on a growing market with higher priced hops.
58:39
Well, the other thing too is that to produce
58:42
the same amount of raw pounds, you needed more
58:45
acres on low trellis than you did on high trellis.
58:48
Oh, I didn't remember that too. Yeah, that was
58:50
one of the other downfalls. But when we were
58:52
slowly keying in on alpha, that didn't matter.
58:57
We were still producing the pounds of alpha.
58:59
Now, I often wonder what another round of low
59:04
trellis would look like, given the fact that
59:08
we have more know -how and tools. I think it's,
59:12
you know, now we're getting into a philosophical
59:16
discussion. In my feeling, our industries must
59:21
continue to get more efficient. And right now,
59:25
the game is trying to get the efficiency through
59:28
yield increase, which can only be done... I mean,
59:32
the varieties that are in craft movement right
59:34
now aren't going to change. They're pretty well
59:36
static. You're not going to improve those. Then
59:39
you look at the alpha side. Well, you can improve,
59:41
I think, the aromatic portfolio, but that would
59:45
probably require... uh recipe changes and not
59:49
everybody wants to change their recipes and so
59:52
they you could get close to probably the original
59:57
recipes but they would need to be updated and
59:59
i think there's a lot of hesitation yeah well
1:00:03
look at adena you know with this high yield and
1:00:05
it's lower water usage and resistance to disease
1:00:09
it's probably one of the more efficient varieties
1:00:11
out there sustainable varieties yeah But I mean,
1:00:15
but that's also like really is intended for,
1:00:18
you know, a couple of different styles primarily.
1:00:21
Yeah. But we can take the knowledge from those
1:00:24
varieties. And I think there's, you know, I think,
1:00:26
do we need 15, 10 or 10 breeding programs? I
1:00:31
don't know. I mean, I think the short answer
1:00:33
is no. Yeah. All right. Well, what else you got
1:00:37
to say about Summit? Sounds like it's, it was,
1:00:41
had less drama than. The CTZ era. Yep. All right.
1:00:47
All righty. Got any parting words here? Nope.
1:00:50
Anxious to see Summit. Yep. Summit and River.
1:00:54
Just bringing back all these oldies. All right.
1:00:57
Well, thank you. See you next time.