Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #89: Karen Dennis-The Ohio State

Transcript

#89: Karen Dennis-The Ohio State · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

0:05
Welcome to the Orthotics connections podcast.
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I'm your host Mike Cunningham national sales manager for Gil
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Athletics. Our goal today is to connect you
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with coaches, from around the world, to learn their Journey.
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Share their stories, and just figure out who they are and what
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they're all about. So, without further Ado, let's
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get on and find out what today's guest has in store for us.
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Alright, thanks again for joining us here on the yellow
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clinics connections podcast Super Pump that you could be
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with us today. I'm just so really, you know, a
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little intimidated. I haven't told her that yet but
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super excited about today's guest.
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Help me. Welcome the wise, the wonderful
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V Karen. Dennis of the Ohio State
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University. Karen, how are you?
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Thanks, Mike. I appreciate that.
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I appreciate you putting in that.
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Be in front of Ohio, State University.
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I didn't either the not that not that big.
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But the Ohio state is highly Presentative.
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And I thank you for inviting me to be on your podcast.
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Well, anybody that knows me knows that I'm super corny.
1:07
So when there was an opportunity to add a v in front of Cameron,
1:10
Dennis because of the Ohio State I was doing, I was going, there
1:13
was no stopping me, I was going right in now I mentioned there
1:17
in the intro, and in our pre-interview I didn't discuss
1:19
this with you because I was I didn't want you to react
1:24
adversely but this is intimidating for me and here's
1:27
why. So I coached for 10 years on the
1:30
college level, Level, you know, going all the way up to
1:32
Mississippi State and throughout my career.
1:35
You are one of the people that I always looked at as like, oh
1:38
man, this person, like, what a success story.
1:42
You know, they're coaching high-level athletes, they're
1:44
working at Great institutions. You were someone that I looked
1:47
up to, when I was coaching and so now it's a little harder for
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me to be on this side. Interviewing someone I looked up
1:54
to it's a little intimidating like, oh, man, I'm finally
1:56
getting to talk to no pun intended on this one, the Karen.
1:59
Dennis, right? You know, that's kind of you
2:02
Mike. I appreciate that.
2:04
You know, I don't, I've always looked at folks who like
2:09
yourself who have always been sort of a servant to to our
2:14
athlete Community, as well as our coaching community.
2:17
So the intimidation is not necessary.
2:21
You know if anything you know just make sure I get some good
2:24
deals when I get ready for some equipment from Gil.
2:28
Well, I tell you, you know, in our interactions You and I have
2:31
had a couple different meats and at your facility and I tell this
2:35
story, I've told the story several times.
2:37
The last time I was in Columbus, I think it was during the usatf
2:41
convention and so I stopped by the Fieldhouse and Joel took me
2:46
over your you know coaching so they took me over just real
2:48
quick. I want to say hi since I was in
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your house and you get you you know, grab my hand, shook my
2:54
hand and you felt how cold I was, you know, this was December
2:58
whatnot. You were the sweetest.
3:01
Person because you didn't just shake.
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My hand is like, oh, you're cold.
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You're like, oh good. Thank goodness.
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You're inside. You're so cold.
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It's so you were like, like I was like, oh my gosh, like it
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was welcoming me into your house.
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I mean, it felt like no different size than a Tracker if
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I was actually in your home. It was just so like the
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intimidation Factor did come down.
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Psycho you're just a nice person.
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You're not this big bad, you know, Big 10 power, 5, head
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coach. You're a real, you're a real
3:25
human Karen. I think that's at the tribute as
3:29
a part of my Heritage, you know. She is important as well as just
3:33
basically being respectful of anybody, that that comes that
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comes into my home or into my area.
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Yeah, that's, that's awesome. That's obviously a testament to
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the way in the people that helped raise you as you were
3:46
coming up. Well, let's start there, I'm
3:49
super excited. We're going to talk about your
3:50
career and your journey in this Sport and then this great
3:53
profession of coaching track and field.
3:55
And then we're going to change the conversation.
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And we're going to talk about, we're going to leverage the
3:59
experience that you've had. Add in coaching at three
4:02
different institution as head coach of three different
4:04
institutions and talk about assistant coaches and how to
4:08
maybe break into this profession, what you look for
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when you're hiring individuals out there and just maybe bring
4:15
some value to people that are listening and like so we can use
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that experience that you have had and have grown into as
4:21
you've gone through your career. Let's take a step back and let's
4:24
talk about your journey you're from Detroit.
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I think originally. How did you get into track and
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field D-Town? No question.
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I got into track and field through the Parks and Recreation
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program and at the end knob Detroit and so there was no
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organized Sporting Community other than Grassroots track and
4:46
field for girls. And so my father who was an
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athlete at Northwestern University, I mean Northwestern
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High School in an Eastern Michigan.
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You know, he saw my passion for track, he saw my talent and
5:00
track you Just running up and down the streets from
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streetlights, a streetlight, you know, chasing, you know
5:07
challenging, any of the boys that they wanted to run.
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And and so he took me to a track meet at one of the I think, is
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that bailout really in Detroit Michigan and it was a state
5:19
championship and I can't remember how you send it to the
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States Championship level, just some local track meets obviously
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and I won the track. Acme.
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And after the track meet after the race, I won the hundred and
5:36
after the race, I was disqualified from the race.
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And so I'm in the back of my dad's car trying to understand
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how you can win, and then lose and the infraction was running
5:48
outside the lane, and so it was on a grass, grass surface.
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And so, I'm in the back of my dad's car crying and a man
5:58
knocked on the window. The car and you know, as my dad
6:03
could he talk to me? And so that was Jim bibs and so
6:07
he said that, you know, he saw my race and he had a club called
6:13
the Detroit track club and he said that he would teach me how
6:16
to run straight and so that's how I really got into the sport
6:23
with Jim bibs. And the Grassroots dress Detroit
6:27
tracking Detroit Track Club. Wow, I don't, I've Heard Jim's
6:31
name. There's a couple of people Harry
6:34
Weaver. And those guys that you don't
6:36
famous in the Detroit area. Yeah.
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Harry Weaver came. I mean, Jim bibs was probably,
6:40
he's 91 now. Okay.
6:42
And he's still trying to keep me straight, it's upright, but but
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at the time, it was more, Richard Ford, you know, the
6:52
Mayor, Daley Youth, Foundation, red Simmons, who was over there
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at Michigan, had think it was Ann Arbor.
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Ann, Arbor something Pioneers, you know, Francie Goodrich was
7:04
part of that program though. There were some Grassroots
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coaches dick forward. You know later on came with the
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Motor City Track Club Harry Weaver, of course, you know,
7:16
came in came during that era. But most of the Grassroots clubs
7:21
that we participated in were, you know, folks, you know,
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Madeline Manning had a, you know, her coach can't remember
7:28
his name over in Cleveland. So those were the people that
7:31
That, you know we're part of part of my my upbringing what
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was the opportunity available to you for high school track and
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field none? So this was all club.
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That was the only opportunities that was the only opportunity.
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There was a girls in high school, there was a girls
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basketball team. You know, you played half court
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and I thought I was pretty good at at basketball, but I later on
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found that the basketball coach was Is also a teammate of Coach
8:04
bibs and he cut me from the basketball team really.
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So I could, I had no choice but to do track right, right.
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I couldn't understand. That took me a long time and it
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took coach a long time before he really disclose that to me and I
8:19
feel pretty good basketball player, but they lose.
8:24
They were in. Cahoots to make sure that I
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stayed in track now. Did I hear you right?
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Basketball was afforded to you but it was only, The half-court
8:31
basketball, because of being a girl's basketball team.
8:34
Right. Right.
8:35
And there was no, you know, there was no, there were no
8:38
other opportunities for girls in high school at that time.
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That I mean, you know, I know we're sitting here at 2021 but
8:45
as a coach and someone's been Athletics, you know, pretty much
8:48
his entire life that blows my mind.
8:50
You know, when you think about it wasn't that long ago, women
8:54
not only weren't allowed but couldn't and I'm doing air
8:57
quotes here, run over 800 meters, right?
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You would fall out and die and all this.
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Stuff. And and you know it's not that
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it's literally a blink right behind us.
9:06
That the Steeplechase for women is now an event in the Olympics
9:09
and pole, vaulting and Hammer, which I didn't realize it was so
9:13
late to the game. I can't believe you just it
9:17
boggles me that you weren't you couldn't play full court
9:20
basketball, like like the boys. I just, yeah, I mean I think you
9:24
know, that's where I appreciate so much, you know, the, the mail
9:30
coaches, Who really rescued, you know, girls who had a strong
9:36
interest in athletics and had talent in athletics, you know,
9:39
be any sport, you know? But if they weren't for the few
9:44
for the, for the men and a few women, you know, like a doctor
9:48
nail Jackson, who I later became, you know who later
9:51
became a mentor and Michigan State if it weren't for people
9:54
like that, you know, then you know, so many of us would not
9:58
have had an opportunity to participate in Boards as well as
10:02
you know and become, you know, have the chance to become
10:05
athletes and then coaches. Yeah, it's amazing.
10:08
What, you know, if you think about what school records and
10:11
college records, and even world records are on the female side,
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what could they be, what will they become?
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Because we just haven't had the link the density of attempts and
10:20
athletes in those different events.
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Right? Right, it's amazing.
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So, how did you went to Michigan State for your undergrad?
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So, how did someone at that time?
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Like, How did you even get to Michigan's?
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And did you even when did it even click that you could run in
10:35
college? Like, that was an opportunity?
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Well, I started it. I started out at Tennessee
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State. Okay.
10:40
Really. Yeah, I started out at Tennessee
10:42
State University and sometimes I think there were like maybe four
10:46
programs in the country that offered that offered
10:51
scholarships. Yeah, the girls and even there,
10:54
the scholarship was a work scholarship.
10:56
You know you worked in the post office, you know and That paid
11:01
for part of your room and board. And then, of course, you had
11:04
your tuition. So there was Tennessee State.
11:07
I think Texas Southern University Illinois where dr.
11:12
Jackson was, and then there was one other school in Texas,
11:20
Texas, Christian University or something.
11:22
But anyway, so I had the opportunity to go to Tennessee
11:25
State and stayed there for a year and you know, left,
11:32
Tennessee, state had some problems there left, Tennessee,
11:35
State and then just sort of got into life, you know, and had my
11:41
daughter and I realized that I needed an education, you know, I
11:47
had a baby and I'm like, I'm looking at her and she's looking
11:51
at me and I'm thinking, you know, what, we got to do
11:53
something different and so I came back to, I was in
11:58
California at the time and then came back to Michigan where my
12:03
family was and I contacted coach bibs and told him that I'd like
12:09
to get back in college, get back in school.
12:12
So one thing my father had always taught me was to keep
12:15
your your academic records strong and keep your credit
12:19
report, strong. Yeah, those two two things that
12:23
you could pretty much do anything so coach bibs at the
12:27
time. Became he would he just left
12:31
High School track and field equals high and had been hired
12:34
at MIT Again, State as the first black coach at Michigan State
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and so he helped me get into college there.
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And so you know, I'm single parent had a daughter and you
12:50
know it was just kind of kind of tough but at the same time I
12:54
love track took me a long time to get my footing back to get
12:59
back in shape you know. But but he was real patient with
13:03
me and I just started Going back to school, you know, I had
13:08
attended Wayne State for, for maybe a semester.
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I had good records, good academic record, so transferred
13:15
in and just started my education and just started, you know,
13:22
running track again. So that's kind of how I got back
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into track, as well as finishing, my, my undergrad, as
13:30
well as a graduate degree at Michigan State.
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Well, first of all, let's give props shout out to Dad.
13:36
What? Great advice, keep your grades
13:38
up and off. Not often talked about, keep a
13:42
credit score up, meaning get your financials in straight.
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That advice, that is really applicable to 2021, you know.
13:51
And I know I joke is that, you know how important a good credit
13:55
report is your good credit rating because that how that
13:58
impacts everything that you want to do in terms of purchase per
14:02
your purchasing power as well as your academic, Make records.
14:06
If you think you want to go into a professional school or
14:09
graduate school. That's important.
14:11
So yeah, you write my dad was real.
14:13
It was real on point with that. Yeah.
14:15
Like a kind of ahead of his time.
14:17
I mean we should again we struggle talking about that now
14:19
in the 2020s and he was doing it back then, that's man, that's a
14:23
smart guy right there. It's Startin understand how you
14:25
got your your life together and moved into so much success.
14:28
You obviously had some pretty good parents and mentors and
14:32
family people looking out after you.
14:33
No, no question. You know.
14:34
And my mother my Mother was she pretty much funded her own
14:40
education in North Carolina going to you know, going to
14:44
college, you know, she talks about never having the chance to
14:49
go home during the year because she didn't have any money.
14:52
You know, she worked her way through school as a waitress
14:56
and, you know, became a teacher. She went to Livingstone College
15:01
in North Carolina and became a teacher and you know, My father
15:06
had to keep her marriage a secret.
15:09
Because at the time you couldn't be married and teach in the
15:13
school system that she was teaching.
15:15
So she had to keep her marriage a secret and when she when she
15:20
got pregnant with my oldest sister, then of course, secret
15:24
is out. But at the same time the law is
15:26
changed and the policies changed.
15:28
So she was able to, you know, keep her job and and continue
15:34
teaching and she was First and second grade teacher throughout
15:37
her professional career. You know, we continue to make
15:41
progress, thank goodness. And we're, you know, the battle
15:43
is still going for equality on a lot of people but to hear that
15:46
type of excuse my language ass backwards thinking real.
15:54
Exactly. Really like I mean that just in
15:57
you know kind of goes in part with some of the things that we
15:59
have going on. Now in society were like really
16:01
this is what we're doing and we're thinking come on well
16:03
let's let's move let's continue to keep moving forward here.
16:06
So you mentioned, mom was a teacher as you got as you're
16:09
working through Michigan State and you're working towards your
16:12
undergrad. What were you thinking?
16:13
What was your undergrad in and what were you thinking for
16:15
profession wise? Well, I wanted to I was winning
16:20
some agricultural economics. I thought I wanted to be a
16:25
bureaucrat and to help farmers with funding and with there
16:30
with, you know, just farming, you know, farming industry and
16:35
that primarily Ali came from, you know, my family coming from
16:39
migrating from Georgia to to the north.
16:43
And there's I've always had a love of the earth and as well as
16:47
growing things. And I felt like I could serve
16:50
the farming Community. However, the thought of sitting
16:53
in an office all day long, as a bureaucrat, Joe would drive me
16:57
crazy. You know, my mother had always
17:00
told me I'd be a good gym teacher and I told her I didn't
17:03
ever want to be a gym teacher and So they did as I look back
17:08
at it, you know, what am I? I'm a gym teacher, you know.
17:10
So I always tell my students, you know, listen to your mother.
17:14
They they know you better. You know, that's what I really
17:18
got my undergrad degree in and then I went and got a master's
17:22
in sport sport, the sport industry, you know, and a minor
17:29
in coaching, and that was at the, at the encouragement
17:32
through dr. Nell Jackson, Who Need me to
17:36
assist her in the, in the track program because she was the
17:40
women's athletic director, as well as the women's track coach.
17:44
And so I came through the track program with mr.
17:47
Bibs as my primary coach and so, you know with him I was able to
17:53
win national championship a iaw and the 200 in the 200 and once
17:59
I graduated, you know, dr. Jackson asked me to stay and
18:02
help her with the track program. Developing the track program and
18:08
gave me. I think a grad assistant ship
18:10
for for working on a master's degree.
18:16
Well, I agree only for a year and then here I am.
18:20
Yeah. So put a pin in that for a
18:22
second because you said something.
18:23
Interesting. So we had Su Humphries on the
18:26
podcast last year and we learned a lot about this.
18:29
The aiaw versus NCAA when they came along, you just mentioned,
18:34
you kind of just kind of tossed off.
18:35
Off to the side. You were the 200-meter national
18:37
champion for the AI, bi W. Yeah, so first of all, you must
18:43
have learned to stay in the lines.
18:44
So that's good news. So how would how did that feel?
18:49
I mean, win a National Championship, you know, there's
18:52
very few people who actually do that, what led to winning the
18:55
national championship, you know, I felt really good about it
18:58
because of the journey back, you know, just from having, not
19:02
competed in sports for years. And you know, just through the
19:07
encouragement and the, you know, the coaching expertise of Coach
19:13
bibs and the opportunity afforded me at Michigan State
19:17
because, you know, I had never had a sort of an organized track
19:21
program because of because of legislation that prevented women
19:27
and girls from being able to participate, you know, this was
19:30
a period when you know really doc.
19:33
It was a very political period. And you can stay, you know, the
19:37
basketball team was suing the school for Title 9 and Title 9
19:43
had just come into into into legislation and the basketball
19:48
team was suing, Michigan State for non-compliance of Title
19:53
Nine. And so there was a lot of
19:55
political political jockeying going on, which really resulted
20:00
in the, you know, the Iron basically of nail Jackson.
20:08
You know, as the athletic director wants the NCAA became
20:14
the primary governing body in athletics, then the women who
20:19
had really grown sports for women were kind of pushed out of
20:27
out of the way both as coaches. And as administrators men
20:32
started taking over the The, the positions that women had
20:37
previously held. And so once once Sports came
20:42
under the NCAA governing umbrella dr.
20:46
Jackson rather than take, uh, subservient role at Michigan
20:51
State. She left?
20:52
Hmm, and as she left the athletic director, kind of asked
21:00
me what I step in and take over. And I just, you know, got my Has
21:05
and I had no, no. No interest.
21:09
No inclination to coach. I wanted to go into
21:12
Administration and that was my plan and so coach.
21:17
Bibs, was the men's coach. And I figured, you know, he
21:20
encouraged me while honeycomb, take, you know, do the job for,
21:24
you know, for year 2 and, you know, then you can move on into
21:27
Administration. And so I agreed to do so only
21:31
because he, you know, encouraged me to do so.
21:34
And I saw the girls there I'm like y'all need somebody, you
21:37
know, And I didn't want to see them, not have a sporting
21:43
opportunity. Like I didn't have in high
21:45
school so I stayed on and here I am, hey, I love that.
21:51
See you need fill-a-need type of attitude and I can only imagine
21:55
you in your, you know. You're not that far off of their
21:58
age at that point. But you looking at these younger
22:00
girls and going, wait a minute that's me not too long ago so
22:06
right now almost, you know, because there You know, at their
22:09
age, you know, I'm recruiting, I'm here at their age, I am
22:12
close to their age but at the same time I'm a mother, you
22:16
know. Oh, right.
22:17
Yeah so I knew I wasn't one of their, one of their peers, you
22:23
know. But I also knew that like you
22:25
said there was a need, you know, I wanted them to have the
22:28
opportunity to participate in sports, that was that's why I
22:32
stayed. I mean, you know, I'm just I'm
22:35
sensing a theme Here of barrier gets put in front of View you,
22:38
smash over. Another barrier.
22:40
Gets puts Matt. You know I think of the the
22:42
disqualification that easily when you were young younger kid
22:46
and you get disqualified from winning the race.
22:50
You know, you're kind of at a fork in the road, you could very
22:51
much have said, well, this part sucks, this, you know, there's
22:54
other things I can do, or you can take that as a challenge and
22:58
say, okay, well, I'll get better.
22:59
You did that, you know, what, all the way leading up to win a
23:02
National Title at 200, being a single mom, which I have so much
23:06
respect for. I'm a, what's that?
23:08
ERM for me and my a single kid. I'm a single mom product, you
23:12
know, again a barrier that you could have there's a lot of
23:15
decisions you could go this way or that way.
23:17
And you continue to choose the path of moving forward in,
23:20
improving your life and your future, as well as your kit your
23:24
daughter's future as well. You know, Mike, I don't really
23:28
look at life's the, the, the I don't really look at life's
23:35
challenges as barriers. I just look at his life, you
23:39
know, I mean it's like, you know, you wake up some days and
23:42
you feel better than other days, you know, your, your your
23:48
situations may be worse. One day than they were the day
23:53
before, but what do you do? You know, so you sit there while
23:56
0 in it or do you decide to do something about it and for me,
24:02
Me, I, you know, there is no, you know, and just watching my,
24:07
my Heritage, you know, as a black, as a black person here in
24:11
America, you know, if you didn't challenge yourself and challenge
24:16
your circumstances, then there's no way in the world we would
24:23
have accomplished as much as we have, as a people, you know?
24:26
So I just like, when I, when I talk about my Heritage I think,
24:32
That I am is a culmination of my Heritage and that's become
24:38
that's made me who I am and so the challenges really weren't
24:42
barriers. They were opportunities for me
24:44
to make my life better, and I appreciate every single one of
24:48
them. I love the other side of that
24:51
story as well. So mentioning the people that
24:53
came before you and the accomplishments and Sweat
24:58
Equity, if you will, the work that they did to help give you
25:00
opportunities well now, Now, as we talk about, you know, your
25:04
daughter and the kids that you've coached, that's what
25:07
you're doing, you're continuing that Legacy.
25:09
If you will, one of the things that I found super interesting,
25:12
I was reading your bio on the Ohio, State website.
25:15
And you know, I've read every coach is bio in this country,
25:19
essentially, right? That gives you a preview, what
25:21
my daily job is. I just read internet all day.
25:24
But you know, I've read a ton of different bios from division
25:29
one, Nei Juco, the whole gamut, right?
25:31
And one of the Things that struck me in your bio you have
25:35
this line in this had my belief is this has to come from you.
25:38
I don't believe in S ID is writing this in their one of the
25:42
lines in your bio is coach coach Smith.
25:45
I'm sorry coach Kevin, Dennis has mentored hundreds of men and
25:49
women who become coaches. Lawyers doctors Educators
25:52
Engineers. I can't read my own handwriting
25:55
and wonderful parents. That struck me, because again,
25:59
my belief is that you had to put that in there.
26:01
So that was mean, that, that is important.
26:02
Portent to you. Well, that's yeah.
26:05
I mean, it's like that's what I'm supposed to do.
26:08
You know? I mean it's like it's not just
26:10
about and I and maybe this comes from the early days in
26:15
athletics. When it wasn't about becoming a
26:17
professional athlete. It wasn't so much about, you
26:22
know, winning medals. It was about having opportunity,
26:26
you know, just having an opportunity to, to live your
26:30
passion, to do what you Enjoy doing and for the girls that
26:36
were at Michigan State, you know, their path to their path.
26:43
Through college was to lead them to a profession.
26:47
You know, whether it be doctors and engineers.
26:49
And I mean I think of Cheryl Gilliam who's got seven patents
26:53
over there Kellogg. I mean there's so many you know,
26:56
Molly, Molly, Molly Brennan. I think that's the hope that's
27:00
right. You know it was a Rhodes
27:03
scholar, you know, we called it in sinkable Molly Brown, you
27:07
know, but you know there's so many girls who went to college
27:11
to become something, you know, to live their passion.
27:15
And so that's what that's what I think.
27:18
My, my role is, you know, I sort of been a bridge between their,
27:25
their life, and their, and their, their Futures, you know,
27:28
they're now and then they're there their future.
27:31
And, you know, Got so many students who never thought they
27:35
could go to college. You know, because either they
27:38
didn't think they had the aptitude or they didn't have the
27:40
money. You know, I've had some of them,
27:43
just tell me, you know Karen I can't go to college.
27:46
I'm like why you can't go to college?
27:48
Because nobody in my family ever, went to college.
27:50
Well, let's start with you. And so you know I just think I'm
27:54
a just if I've done anything like I hope I served as a
27:59
conduit between their parents. Past and their Futures.
28:04
Well, I love that attitude of what success is right?
28:07
I know we're involved in sports and so the most immediate way to
28:11
talk about success as a coach is how many national titles?
28:14
How many Conference titles? How many all Americans?
28:16
Those kind of things and those are important, right?
28:17
Because that is our job. We coach kids to get better and
28:21
things like that and we coach teams but at the beginning and
28:25
at the end of the day success for Coach, my opinion here is
28:31
exactly that line. That bio.
28:33
That's why just struck me so much was like, oh well, how many
28:35
kids have gone? First of all, how many kids did
28:37
you get into college that to your point?
28:39
Didn't even think they could go to college or thought other
28:43
people said that they would go to college and drop out.
28:45
Those kind of things, how many ended up going and getting
28:47
degrees and then moved on to professional lives?
28:49
That then because here's your real Legacy, in my opinion, the
28:54
people that they have become the doctors lawyers parents and the
28:58
that's one level that's the first level.
29:00
It's the second level that to me is where the real Legacy happens
29:03
is the people that they positively impact.
29:06
So the teachers that you helped coach become teachers and the
29:09
thousands of kids that they're going to teach in first grade
29:11
12th grade College. Professors, you mentioned the
29:15
young lady who got who has patents, which I'm super
29:16
jealous. I always really liked.
29:18
That's one of the things I really want to patent around
29:19
here. So I'm always trying to stick my
29:21
nose in R&D and figure out something.
29:23
But you know, how many people's lives were changed positively.
29:26
Because of that lady's work and that received patents.
29:30
Like, that is your that your legacy, the Total body of what
29:33
the kids become not. What's the fastest 100-meter
29:36
person you've ever coached? Yeah, you know you want people
29:41
to be fast and sure could run to, you know, she was you know,
29:46
Big Ten Champion but you know, in Michigan State's Hall of Fame
29:49
and now, you know really you know, help me get into Michigan,
29:54
State's Hall of Fame, you know, just but you're right.
29:57
I think that, you know, the students that that I've Had The
30:00
Good Fortune to be able to To to Mentor, so to speak.
30:05
They are and I think that that's important, you know, and I think
30:08
track and field has a tremendous role in developing, you know,
30:16
really honorable productive citizens, you know, and I think
30:20
that, you know, given the political climate that we find
30:24
ourselves in with, you know, social injustice and you know,
30:28
inequities here and there, you know, when when you have a team
30:32
that Is so diverse as a track and field team.
30:36
Then there's so much our students are able to learn from
30:39
each other and to appreciate about each other and I think
30:43
that that's that's an important aspect of what we do and who we
30:48
are. Yeah absolutely I mean we're
30:51
biased but track and field is the greatest sport there is and
30:54
it's a great example of what the world may be could and should be
30:59
as well as there, no matter body type color.
31:02
In level there is a place for you to be successful inside the
31:05
track and field world. That's part of its awesomeness.
31:09
So, you know, I have a special place in my heart for coaches
31:12
who coach at their alma mater and so you're at Michigan State
31:15
which is your alma mater. At this time, you are there for
31:19
around 15 years, why my leave and go to my other favorite
31:24
place in the world, Las Vegas. Yeah you know the thing about
31:27
Michigan State. There was no funding at Michigan
31:30
State, okay? At the time, you know, we you
31:34
know, the NCAA track and field was just taken off in the NCAA
31:38
was up and up and going and scholarships became an issue,
31:44
okay? So with Michigan State, you
31:47
know, they wanted to tear the scholarship, the allocation of
31:51
scholarship for sports, okay? So in the top tier was
31:54
basketball, you know, the team sports and then that the lower
31:57
rung was track and field and so but I'm competing against G
32:03
inside the Big Ten who are fully funded with scholarships.
32:08
So at the time, they gave me eight scholarships and called
32:13
that fully funded. No 16 scholarships is fully
32:17
funded, you know. So I've got eight scholarships
32:20
to be able to compete against, you know, other other schools in
32:24
the Big Ten and so it was just kind of frustrating.
32:28
And so, one day, I got phone or phone call from from, from what,
32:36
from what, one of my administrators who said that a
32:39
Headhunter had called him about. Come my inch about being
32:44
interested in having me, go out to UNLV.
32:47
And I know anything about Las Vegas.
32:49
I thought, Las Vegas was a place that people either went to gang,
32:51
you know, the gamble or to get divorced or getting, you know,
32:56
but I'd never been to Las Vegas. So my daughter was graduating
33:01
from High School. And so I just figured this is if
33:05
I'm going to make a move then it's time.
33:07
So for me I wanted and I wanted a situation where I could be
33:13
more competitive in track and field.
33:16
And so I went out there and you know, I took the phone call and
33:21
it was Keith trouble and you know, he talked to me about
33:27
coming out to Las Vegas and at the time this was a time when
33:32
let's see The there were 33 coaching positions that will
33:36
open. It was Florida, Texas and UNLV
33:41
and bed. All the schools want to be of
33:43
Kearney. And so there was a good friend
33:46
of mine and I told, babe, I said, well babe, you can't have
33:50
a one of these jobs. So, so one of these jobs belong
33:55
to me. And so, you know, bear went to
33:58
Texas, you know, and, you know, I went out to UNLV and Talk to
34:04
the president. They are and the athletic
34:06
director, keep trouble and and you know he he said that they
34:12
were going to fund me like they would have football program and
34:15
so I'm like cool. So I went out there and then I
34:18
think he and Doug they athletic director, keep was the assistant
34:22
athletic director. They left in about a year or two
34:25
and but but the what they wanted from me was to change the
34:30
culture of The track and field program at UNLV because students
34:38
were not graduating and they, you know, they had a poor poor
34:44
graduation rate and they're just, what didn't seem to be any
34:48
seriousness, and my coming from the Big Ten, a very academic
34:53
conscious conference. So they thought that I would be
34:57
a good fit there. And so, you know, I like the
35:01
sunshine I like the mountains is beautiful.
35:06
And I'm like, why not my daughter's out of the out of the
35:09
high school? She's settled into it at College
35:11
at Howard University and so, I'm figuring.
35:14
Okay, why not? So, that's how I got out to you,
35:17
and they'll be you mentioned the name, Keith Tribble.
35:19
How do I know that name? Well, he was executive director
35:23
of the Orange Bowl. Yes.
35:25
Okay, no, that's where when he left UNLV.
35:28
That's where he went. He's probably one of the most
35:30
prominent. Figures in in sport, you know,
35:36
I'm not quite sure where he is right now.
35:39
But, what did he has a serious role in sports?
35:44
Yeah, I might be getting him mixed up.
35:45
Is he the gentleman that was the ad at UCF for a while?
35:49
Yes. And maybe it was the president
35:51
of the like I think maybe he had a lot to do with whether it was
35:56
the Rooney Rule in the NFL or something similar to that in
35:59
college, as far as hiring and hiring of African Americans
36:02
specifically in I think I gave director of the Orange Bowl.
36:05
Yeah, you know, so, you know, he's just, you know, he's really
36:10
promoted, you know, a lot of a lot of minorities in sports and,
36:16
you know, I'm just grateful for him to him for, you know, giving
36:20
me an opportunity to, to coach in a different part of the
36:26
country, as well as with a different emphasis, you know, in
36:29
athletics. So, at that became more
36:31
competitive for me. So I Had full scholarships.
36:34
I was able to, you know, sort of actually, we change the academic
36:39
culture, you know, our team became, you know, one of the
36:45
most successful Echo teams. Academically at UNLV, you know,
36:51
won most improved athletes, you know, Athletic program on
36:56
program, in terms of academics at UNLV.
36:58
And then we want some championships there.
37:00
So, you know, it was it was it was fun.
37:03
So, one of the easiest things to do is to erode culture and one
37:09
of the hardest things to do is to change culture for the
37:13
positive. So you mentioned that about
37:15
changing the culture, and it's obviously, it sounds like you
37:18
were able to have success there. Talk to us.
37:21
What are some of the ways? So what are some of the things
37:24
that you had to implement or do or say to change that culture of
37:28
like, oh, this isn't just, you're not here just to run
37:29
track. You're here to get a degree in
37:31
Run Track, let you know the academic side.
37:33
What were some of the things that you did to help change that
37:35
culture? You know, that's a good
37:38
question. One of the first thing I did, I
37:40
went to the one of the novelty stores, and I bought a badge
37:44
that says Sheriff, you know, I'm in the west now, I'm in, I'm in
37:47
the southwest, I bought a bad to say a sheriff, and then I
37:51
bought, I bought, you know, two or three, whatever was deputy
37:55
badges. And so, my first day meeting, I
37:58
just told him new sheriff in town.
38:01
Okay. Now we're going to have every
38:03
New coach is going to start doing that.
38:04
That is awesome. I love that.
38:09
So it was laying down the law from day.
38:12
One is what I'm hearing, pretty much, you know.
38:15
And and I told him, you know, look we're here to go to school
38:19
and we're here to run track, you know, the strip is now is less
38:22
than three miles away. That at the say, you have to
38:25
make a decision. You know, we need to go go to
38:27
school where you going to be down here on the Strip now some
38:30
of them chose to be down there on the Strip, you know?
38:32
But those that decided to stay in the other thing, I think Mike
38:35
and had to be done was, you know, No the recruitment.
38:38
You know you had to I found you know I found we had to recruit a
38:42
more serious student as opposed to as opposed to just you know
38:46
kids coming to Las Vegas because it's Las Vegas.
38:49
It is an exciting place is like nothing.
38:51
There's never a day that something isn't exciting isn't
38:54
going on. And so but we had to recruit
38:58
students that were serious about academics and that was a
39:02
challenge because you know, most of those students that I would
39:06
recruit He is not a serious academic institution and so, I
39:14
had to convince them that it is a serious academic institution.
39:20
And actually, I ended up mostly, you know, recruiting from the
39:23
junior college ranks and, or going to the Caribbean because
39:29
those students and I recruited from California, from Canada, on
39:34
Vancouver, part of Canada, because it was close To Las
39:38
Vegas. So I just had to be strategic in
39:42
how I recruited and as well as you know, once students got
39:47
their, you know, the emphasize you're here for an education, as
39:51
well as Athletics. That's interesting.
39:53
You mentioned recruiting Junior College athletes.
39:56
So as a former junior college coach myself you know, one of
40:00
the things I loved my time coaching junior college, but one
40:03
of the things I didn't like was I felt a little bit like a
40:05
shark. So when I recruited Athlete.
40:08
You know, I'm looking for kids who aren't making the
40:11
Clearinghouse, who aren't making their GPA and are making their
40:14
test scores and I was happy when I get a transcript and they had
40:18
good grades because I'm like, okay, good.
40:19
You can go on straight to a four-year school but what was it
40:23
about you talking about recruiting a more serious
40:27
academic student athlete and you're going, you talk about
40:30
Junior College which is traditionally, guys and gals who
40:33
aren't making their grades, what was it about Juco kids?
40:35
Was that the the second chance at a Attitude or from them or
40:38
what was that? Well, I think, you know, for
40:43
Juco kids, they they want obviously, they want education,
40:47
just because you're in Juco, doesn't mean you don't want an
40:49
education, it just means that you took you took a Juco route,
40:53
you know, through education and you know, so those students and
40:58
I had good connections with you know, schools and on the east
41:02
coast and so to come out to Sunny Las Vegas Not a hard sale
41:09
and then from there you know they were able to get their get
41:14
their degree and you know California was obviously a
41:19
hotspot to recruit. However there's so many schools
41:23
in California, it was hard to specify specially because you
41:27
NLB did not you know our did a great job at UNLV but at the
41:32
same time it it did not have a real strong.
41:37
Wrong academic or athletic reputation.
41:40
And so, you know, it was hard to recruit again, some of the
41:45
traditional and really galvanized programs in
41:49
California. And then the students that some
41:53
of the high school students that I did get when I when I
41:56
recruited them, some of them were they just weren't they just
42:02
weren't used to. Being a serious student, you
42:07
know, I had students come from there that said they had never
42:09
read a book from cover to cover and their life and this is Mary
42:13
College and that's stunning to me stunning, you know.
42:17
So that's why I say I had to really be strategic and find
42:21
students that you don't have the academic Acumen to be able to
42:27
matriculate through college. While at the same time recruit
42:32
students who were mature. Enough to be able to handle,
42:36
both the academic and athletic expectation of a division 1
42:41
athlete. And so that's where I kind of
42:44
went a mix of a hybrid of, you know, high school students as
42:47
well as Juco students, you know, and even with them, you know, I
42:52
think of Crystal Irving, who is now the athletic director at Cal
42:58
Poly, you know, you know, she, you know, won a national
43:02
championship and she's a director at At Cal Poly, you
43:05
know. Now you know and so there was
43:07
some really great students who went on and did some you know
43:11
that are continuing to do some phenomenal things in their
43:15
professional areas. I always thought, you know, be
43:19
was kind of this hybrid tough program, right?
43:22
Because you know first of all everybody knows, Las Vegas so
43:24
you don't to sell the city that you're in and your college all
43:27
that stuff. But the state of Nevada is a
43:29
desert. So it's not like there's a
43:30
plethora of kids to choose from in the state, you have to To go
43:34
out of state to recruit kids for talents.
43:37
Yeah, it's a tough. The desert is something.
43:40
I mean, I saw some things. I mean, any time the winds can
43:44
have, you know, the winds were strong enough to blow the high
43:48
jump pads across the across the field like Tumbleweed, you know,
43:53
it's just, you know, I didn't know what I was walking into,
43:57
but at the same time, you know, it was, it was an interesting
44:01
experience. And like I said, None of the I
44:05
don't regret any any of the moves that I made?
44:08
Yeah, wind sun when it rains, the city shuts down.
44:15
Gotta practice either 6:00 in the morning right now, door,
44:19
8:30 at night, to beat the sun, you know?
44:22
So yeah, there were some, you know, obviously, obviously some
44:25
things that you had to figure out a workaround, but during all
44:30
that time, we still got to go to school.
44:32
You know, we still have to, we still have Go to class and read
44:36
the books, do the assignments, you know, take the test pass the
44:40
test and then and then graduate. So your current.
44:45
So you go from UNLV to the Ohio State University and it'll hot
44:48
in Ohio State University in any number of ways that you measure.
44:52
It is one of the preeminent schools and athletic departments
44:57
in the country if not the world. So if you want to talk about
44:59
athletic department, highest budgets, highest incomes,
45:03
obviously football team. Basketball team track.
45:05
I mean all the teams succeed there in some form or fashion,
45:08
the school itself you know hundreds of majors and high
45:11
level academics. How did the opportunity come to
45:15
go back to the Midwest and go to Ohio State?
45:19
Okay, I got fired from UNLV, hold on I didn't see that one
45:24
coming and it you know when When someone tells you that your
45:28
contract isn't going to be renewed that's that's a
45:32
euphemism for you're fired. And so, you know, there was no,
45:36
you know, you asked, well, why, you know, I just come off the
45:40
Olympics. My team was doing well.
45:42
My kids were doing, well, academically can't remember the
45:46
athletic directors. The name of the athletic
45:48
director, they came in from USC, but he didn't know me.
45:52
But and, but I had seen Barbara Farrell or Barbara, Edmondson
45:58
over at the University coming coming back and forth and she
46:01
was at USC and I I knew that my it was at the end of my contract
46:07
and I'm kind of put one and one together with the ad coming from
46:15
USC, you know, 80s want to bring their own people in.
46:18
And so, you know, when I, when I asked why they said they were
46:22
going in a different direction and so I'm like, okay so that
46:28
evening you know I got calls from you know they wanted me to
46:31
resign. I said I'm not resigning.
46:33
You know, I I got fired, you know?
46:36
And so that's what you all are going to have to, you know, I
46:38
mean it's that's what it's about.
46:40
So I got home and I got some phone calls from I think from
46:48
all over really but the next day Russ Rogers called me and said
46:53
you know Karen you know Candy left and Candy was his
47:00
assistant, Candy Young and I'm like, okay so he's like why
47:04
Don't you come over here and help me.
47:06
And I'm like fine, you know, so between Russ, Russ Rogers, and
47:11
Steve Simmons. You know they sort of circle the
47:14
wagons around me and within a week I was, you know, hired over
47:18
it at Ohio State. And so, Mike, I say that to say
47:22
you always, you don't always know why something happens, but
47:27
that was the best thing that could ever happen to me.
47:30
Mmm, I can't think of a politically correct his name.
47:33
But anyway, I Done. You know what I can remember
47:36
when they told me that my contract wasn't going to be
47:38
renewed, I walked out of that office.
47:40
And I, the before I walked out, I said Thank you.
47:42
And then when I got outside the office, I'm like, what are you
47:45
thinking for your ass just got fired.
47:47
And so, you know, I get home and that and I really, you know, I
47:52
start processing it all. And, you know, but I had a
47:56
community, the track Community, sort of, you know, like I said,
48:01
they circle the wagons around me and You know, I found myself at
48:06
the Ohio State University as an assistant in a combined program
48:10
in the men's and women's program.
48:12
And I knew that that wasn't going to be.
48:16
There was a good move because at the time you as you, well, know,
48:20
most of the programs were becoming combined programs, you
48:24
know, so that would give me some, you know, I was really
48:26
looking forward to the opportunity and experience of
48:29
working with men. And so, you know, it was just
48:34
Was just a good thing that happened is a higher state.
48:37
The first Michigan state was coaching just women.
48:40
And, you know, if he was just coaching just went out now, they
48:42
were separate programs and UNLV only had a women's Pro.
48:46
Right. Right.
48:48
And so, you know, fast forward from UNLV, a lot of the schools
48:53
in the power 5 were becoming combined programs, you know?
48:57
So there were very few women that coached dual gendered
49:02
programs about think I knew of any a At the time.
49:06
And so, you know, to go to Ohio State and work in a dual gender
49:12
program. I thought would be, you know, it
49:14
was a great opportunity, Russ needed an assistant, you know, I
49:17
needed a job. You know, it's all good.
49:20
That's a good fit. Yeah, that's a good fit.
49:23
Yeah, I'm amazed, you know, when someone's out an institution for
49:28
an extended time, typically, there's also multiple athletic
49:32
directors and always impresses me because exactly what he At a
49:35
lot of athletic directors come in and want their own people.
49:37
They already have their own statute, you know, their dreams
49:40
staffs put together for football, basketball, track,
49:42
Etc. I remember one of the first
49:44
times I met James Henry at University of Michigan.
49:47
Yeah, like beans and like you been there for 30 years?
49:50
How many ades have you been through and the camera?
49:53
The number it was it was an exorbitant of number and I was
49:56
like, you know what, that tells me.
49:57
All I need to know about you that if you're able to not only
50:00
whether new ades, but convince them that you're their guy.
50:04
Like that says everything to me, you know, and that's what, you
50:07
know, and, and he did fight John whoever that I can't remember
50:11
the man's name. But anyway, he did hire Barbara,
50:14
you know, Barbara Farrell Edmondson.
50:17
And, you know, I could kind of see that's what we're the
50:20
direction was going. As well as I think that you
50:23
know, in hindsight, you know, some of the other coaches who
50:28
had had, you know, some prominent roles, you know, they
50:32
too were replaced. And I think part of that, Also
50:35
was money, you know it's like you know you it's easier to
50:39
bring in somebody pay him less than the retain somebody then
50:43
and keep them at their current salary or pay them more, you
50:47
know, if you aren't, you know, if you are making money at your
50:50
school. So you know, it's a lot of
50:53
different things and I try to encourage people about a don t,
50:55
worry about that. You know, you take care of you,
50:58
take care of your yourself, do your job and all the rest of it
51:01
will fall into place. So you go to the Ohio State
51:04
University. See, this is year 7 for you.
51:07
I'm in, I went to Ohio State and 2002.
51:11
Oh okay, yeah, well, I can't do math.
51:13
So around 19 years in started off as the assistant and now
51:18
you're a director and sadly, you know, you talked about the
51:21
number of women director, you know, both gender directors.
51:24
We, you know, you and I could and within 20 seconds, probably
51:27
name all five or six of them that there.
51:29
Are it son? Yeah.
51:31
Which again that's like, I'm, that's not a good brag.
51:33
Like I wish there was like Are so many we can't think of them,
51:36
you know. So what's it like going from an
51:40
assistant coach at a program like the Ohio State to the
51:42
director? What are some of the things that
51:44
you had to adjust? If anything based on your prior
51:46
experiences? Well, you know, already, you
51:50
know, working with guys. You know what?
51:52
It was a good experience to work with guys and that's where, you
51:55
know, you know, Joe Brown, you know, who's assisting now, you
52:00
know, I was able to coach him, you know, Russ kind of Gave me a
52:06
lot along, free rein pretty much to code, some of the, some of
52:11
the sprinters. And so the sprinters and
52:14
hurdlers. And so, you know, I got familiar
52:17
with coaching guys, guys. The guys are whole lot in my
52:20
mind, a whole lot easier to coach them women.
52:24
I love coaching both of them, but at the same time, I think
52:31
The guys are the girls are a little more emotionally charged
52:36
than men. I think we're I think men and
52:38
women are wired different and stuff but it's so I enjoyed
52:43
coaching the guys and and what I, what was challenging for me,
52:47
when I first became the director was them except accepting me as,
52:52
you know, a female as the coach and two or three of them just
52:57
weren't going to work on, have it.
52:59
And I'm I'm with that, you know, so I was like, hey, you don't
53:01
have to be here, you know, I appreciate, you know, Jean
53:05
Smith, you know, urging me to make those tough decisions as to
53:10
when I wanted to keep retain somebody or let them go.
53:14
And so you know, I gave them an open door, you know, you don't
53:18
want to be here. That's fine.
53:20
You know, go find somewhere else but I am your coach right now
53:23
and so they left, you know, two or three of them and they were
53:28
some of the best ones on the Team that left but at the same
53:31
time that really opened me up as as gaining their respect, you
53:40
know, as well as having you know.
53:43
I thought it was important that men get comfortable with women
53:47
bosses because you know it's not an all-male Society.
53:54
You know that women are. Women are formidable.
53:59
Are competent. Women are amazing and women are
54:05
your mother's. And so, you know, just get
54:08
comfortable being with women and being, you know, trusting
54:14
they're trusting their ability to help you, get better at
54:19
whatever it is, you want to do. And so, you know, I enjoy
54:25
coaching the guys and I think, you know, I've been fortunate
54:29
enough Enough to surround myself with assistant coaches, who
54:34
share my vision as well as understand are.
54:40
Unique and amazing responsibilities that we have
54:45
with the young lives that, that, that, that we are entrusted.
54:49
You know, we all have our own biases and Privileges.
54:53
And so, as I Was preparing to have this conversation with you
54:56
today, I vowed myself and I do work hard in this, with any
55:01
women's Coach or woman's guests that we have on the program to
55:04
not ask the question. Well, what's it like being a
55:08
woman coaching men because I would never, Are asked that
55:11
question of a male. I would never ask a mail coach.
55:13
What's it like coaching women? I appreciate you bringing up
55:16
those the differences than there are differences.
55:18
But to me it coach is a coach. And as a coach and what I mean
55:21
by that is there are really good men coaches there are there are
55:25
some bad men coaches, there's really good women coaches and
55:27
there's but I don't think its respective of your sex, whether
55:30
you are or can become a good coach.
55:33
We all have different personalities and styles and and
55:35
objectives when we're in this profession, yeah, you know,
55:39
women didn't, you know I mean this is a patriarch Society, you
55:43
know I mean this is our history is is Patriot is full of a
55:47
patriot kind of a society and so women women have always had to
55:53
sort of earn their place in in this society and At the same
56:01
time, we've always had a prominent place in society
56:06
because we bear the children. You know, we take care of the
56:10
homes. You know, many times we take
56:12
care of the finances and, you know, we are the nurturers and
56:18
so it's like it's there's no when you when you coach mail
56:25
when you coach man, it's like you are.
56:29
They're your children just as well.
56:30
You know, so, but there they are different, you know, they're,
56:35
they're like I called it being wired different, you know, their
56:39
attitudes, their expectations are different and as Society
56:43
continues to evolve and women become more prominent have more
56:46
prominent roles in society, as well as are looked upon more,
56:53
they're more, they looked upon in a more agreeable bite, you
56:59
know. I think the respect that women
57:03
have now is Appreciated more by men, you know and I think men
57:10
you know some of the men's programs and I may I may be
57:12
getting out of line here. Mike, I'm not sure, but I think
57:15
that some of the mint, the some of the program's I've seen
57:19
throughout the country that don't have any women on their
57:22
staffs. I really wonder about that, you
57:25
know, I'm like, why, you know, you got maybe 50 percent of
57:29
your, you know, your population are girls, but there are no
57:33
women or the women that are around.
57:36
Our director of Ops or, you know, their women, who may hold
57:41
a stopwatch, you know, but they're, you know, they're not
57:46
some of them aren't really being able to coach.
57:48
They're not being encouraged to coach, you know, significantly
57:54
and. And, and I wonder about that.
57:56
So I think that, you know, where I look at at some programs
58:01
where, you know, that they do have women that they are in such
58:07
a, such a lesser role, and I think that that's, that's a, I
58:13
don't think that they're being you utilized in a way that
58:17
benefits, both men and women, because I think men have women
58:21
have to get used to men coaches, or I couldn't say shouldn't say,
58:25
get used to it because they've traditionally always had me and
58:27
coaches. And that's probably why I got
58:30
into coaching because there weren't any female coaches, but
58:36
Women have got to, you know, men have got to really groom their
58:40
women to be better coaches, you know.
58:43
So that's just part of part of the way, I see things.
58:47
So let's continue that conversation.
58:51
We're talking about coaching in regards to the athletes.
58:53
Let's take the next step and let's talk about the profession
58:57
of coaching as it relates to men and women in both sides.
59:02
Are you know could or maybe should be some of the examples
59:05
you just gave Differently and how they're being treated today.
59:08
What, you know, one of the things that you can't rush, you
59:11
can't speed up at all, is experience.
59:15
So throughout your career as head coach at different
59:18
institutions, you have hired plenty of coaches on your staff.
59:24
You have gotten probably times 100 that many resumes for those
59:28
positions that you've hired. So, as we have younger listeners
59:32
that are just now getting into coaching or think that, That the
59:36
world might be stacked against them.
59:38
They can't get another job at whatever, they think the dream
59:41
job is, or that's a power, five, division, one, whatever that may
59:44
be for that person what are some things as you've looked in hired
59:49
throughout your career? What are some things advice that
59:52
you would give to coaches as they are looking to become move
59:56
on to different institutions to be hired, a different places.
59:59
I think submitting a resume is, is less.
1:00:06
Important in the hiring process than it used to be.
1:00:10
I think relationships is the most important thing right now.
1:00:14
Maybe 20 years ago, you know, you submit a resume and people
1:00:19
really, you know, looked at the resume, you know, I think right
1:00:23
now, you know, I mean, I get if I have an opening, you know, you
1:00:27
have to, you have to post the post to opening and solicit.
1:00:36
Resumes. But, at the same time, one of
1:00:39
the things that dr. Jackson told me as a young coach
1:00:43
was that, you always keep a short list of coaches.
1:00:49
Like she would keep a short list of Administrators and, and I've
1:00:53
always sort of kept that in mind.
1:00:56
And so relationships is more important.
1:01:00
I think than a piece of paper or resume my resumes.
1:01:04
Are the, the You can find out what the resume, you know, you
1:01:08
are your resume. And so if you, if you
1:01:12
demonstrated through, you know, performances at wherever you are
1:01:18
that, you know, you, you're you know, you're easy to get along
1:01:24
with you, work hard, got good, work, ethic that you've been
1:01:29
loyal to the program that you, you know, that you currently
1:01:33
that you're currently at that. You You know, how to coach, and
1:01:38
know how to get along with people, because we're in the
1:01:41
people industry, we're in the people business, we aren't going
1:01:45
to be successful if we don't get along with people.
1:01:48
And you know, I think recruitment is important.
1:01:51
But again, that's getting along with people being able to sell
1:01:55
your program, sell yourself and your program to a family.
1:02:00
So I'm going to be drama. Be honest with you, when I, when
1:02:04
I talk to women, About coaching. I tell them, don't I tell them,
1:02:10
don't go into coaching, okay, like to see more women do is go
1:02:14
into Administration. I want to see more women be like
1:02:18
my dr. Jackson, who sat at the table
1:02:23
and made hiring decisions, you know, because right now, if
1:02:28
there aren't, when there aren't as many women in administration,
1:02:33
as they used to be in the AIA, Days and like it or not men will
1:02:40
you know some have a tendency sometimes to hire men or to take
1:02:45
hiring advice from other male colleagues.
1:02:49
And so what I encourage women to do right now is to become an
1:02:55
administrator become, you know, have yourself at formidable
1:02:59
place at the table where your voice is going to impact the
1:03:04
decision, the height, Hiring decision, you know?
1:03:08
And if we can do that, then more women will have more
1:03:13
opportunities in coaching, you know.
1:03:17
So, I think that, you know, particularly now with the volume
1:03:22
of administrative responsibilities that coaches
1:03:25
have any way, you know, why not go into Administration, you
1:03:31
know, why not grow yourself as an administrator Or from maybe
1:03:37
your athletic days, you know, because we look at, you know, a
1:03:40
lot of athletes are becoming coaches.
1:03:43
You know. Most of the coaches that I've
1:03:45
hired were, were, were former athletes.
1:03:49
You know, you know, Joe Brown, you know, you know, helped our
1:03:53
team get forth in the in the nation, you know, you know, when
1:03:57
he was a student athlete, you know, Ashley muffin, who's not
1:04:00
actually Kovacs know, she's, you know, over at Choose that
1:04:06
Western Kentucky, you know? And, you know I almost had to
1:04:09
kick her out of my car. She talked so much about, you
1:04:12
know, how much you wanted to coach at Ohio State and I knew I
1:04:14
was going to hire her. She said, what else can I say
1:04:17
coach? I said, ask to get out of my
1:04:18
car. That's a good you about to cut.
1:04:21
You out to talk your way out of a job.
1:04:22
Get out of car, you know. But that was passion, you know,
1:04:27
and you want to have people who are passionate, you know, Sarah,
1:04:31
you know, for Goldie, you know, got into the, you know, I hired
1:04:36
her, then she got out of coaching felt like, you know,
1:04:39
maybe I don't want to do this and then called with less than a
1:04:43
year within less than a year of her absence from coaching and
1:04:46
said, hey, I still want to coach, so I'm just kind of
1:04:48
getting off on it, but but I think that to answer your
1:04:52
question more more clearly, and if I get away from, don't go
1:04:57
into coaching. I look for people who are
1:04:59
passionate, I look for people who are, who are honest.
1:05:03
I, I look for people Who, you know, get along with other
1:05:08
people on the staff, I look for people who are personable, you
1:05:12
know, and I look for people who want to win, you know, because
1:05:17
at the end of the day, you know, we are probably that that
1:05:22
subsection of of an athletic department that if you don't
1:05:26
win, you lose your job. I don't see.
1:05:29
Administrators get fired too much.
1:05:31
I don't see strength coaches, get fired too much, I don't see
1:05:34
trainers. Get fired.
1:05:35
Too much. I mean, I don't see, you know
1:05:38
that the coaches are the ones who's on the chopping block, you
1:05:43
know, and if you don't, if you don't do your job with the
1:05:48
utmost degree of integrity and professionalism and capability
1:05:52
and skill, then you're going to lose your job, dear listener.
1:05:56
Let me encourage you to hit the rewind button because what Karen
1:06:01
just said there. There's so much to unpack there.
1:06:03
I'm gonna go back to one of the first You said that really you
1:06:07
said a lot there. That struck me Karen.
1:06:09
But one of the things and it's a nice little kind of a nice sound
1:06:14
bite, the way you said it is, you are your resume.
1:06:17
Like I thought that was so poignant about who you are, and
1:06:20
what you do, and how you represent yourself on a daily
1:06:23
basis. You talked about getting along
1:06:25
with your coaching staff, being personable, because we're in the
1:06:27
people business, if your resume looks better than who you
1:06:31
actually are or vice versa, there's a disconnect there and I
1:06:35
think coach, Has such as yourself who had a lot of
1:06:37
experience seeing that can can see that disconnect.
1:06:39
And that's, that's the people that don't get.
1:06:41
Maybe the next look at a job. It's when who you are, is
1:06:45
authentic in on a daily basis, you show that those are the
1:06:49
people that have more opportunities in front of them.
1:06:53
Yeah, my and the disconnect is going to be exposed at some
1:06:56
point, you know? So it's like, you can't separate
1:07:00
yourself from who you, you know, from your, from your body of
1:07:03
work and people will, you know, if this gets back to to me, sort
1:07:10
of the insignificance of a resume because very seldom, do I
1:07:15
call people that's on the resume.
1:07:17
You know, I will call people who are not on the resume because
1:07:22
most of the And the people that you list as references on your
1:07:25
resume or people who, you know, are pretty much in your corner,
1:07:29
you know. But, you know, sometimes you
1:07:31
want to call people who aren't on the resume just to, you know,
1:07:35
get that Side Story or that back story about this particular
1:07:39
person, you know, because that's that's important.
1:07:42
You really want to have the whole skinny on who this person
1:07:46
is that you're bringing into your family.
1:07:48
Yeah, it's someone here at gil has this hired, you know,
1:07:52
people. I never did understand the
1:07:54
references section of a resume. It's like, it's almost like a
1:07:57
catch you to see if your, this is going to sound a little
1:07:59
harsh, but to catch you and see if you're dumb or not like, did
1:08:02
you vet the people? Those three people did you call
1:08:05
them and know that they're on your side?
1:08:09
Because I'm asking you, like, tell me your friends are going
1:08:11
to tell you how great you are. That's all the references are.
1:08:13
I like that taking that one extra stuff in like okay well I
1:08:15
know you worked at such-and-such University so I'm going to call
1:08:18
this person is not on your resume and just be like, hey how
1:08:20
was so and so on your team or whatnot?
1:08:23
Get gas, right? That Side Story if you will that
1:08:25
like you mentioned yeah. Yeah.
1:08:27
That's what our kids need to understand.
1:08:28
You know. I'm trying to tell explain to
1:08:30
them. You know, it's not about, you
1:08:32
know, you have to, you have to realize that, you know, when you
1:08:35
go look for a job, people are going to look at your Instagram.
1:08:37
You know, I mean now the soldier who told social media piece
1:08:40
right now you talk about getting exposed you know, you know.
1:08:44
So you know, people are going to look at your Facebook page,
1:08:48
people are going to look at your Instagram page, you know, those
1:08:51
are Those types of apps. Now really give employers a
1:09:00
better look at who you are. Other than your resume, you
1:09:03
know, other than your academic credentials, you know, they want
1:09:05
to know. They want to know who you are,
1:09:08
you know, what's in your soul, you know, what's in your spirit,
1:09:10
you know, what's in your life, you know what's your, what are
1:09:12
your interests, you know, and you we got, you know, in
1:09:18
respective of you know what, you tell me I want to, I really want
1:09:22
to know. I want to see a more honest
1:09:27
glimpse of you know I want more authentic.
1:09:30
Look at who you are as opposed to the curated.
1:09:35
That's on your that's on this piece of paper, right?
1:09:37
Yeah. The the resume is curated like
1:09:40
that's you get to choose what it is or is not on their social
1:09:43
media. You also get to choose on there
1:09:45
but it's much more of a you forget that all eyes are on that
1:09:48
social media. And so, I love, you know, that's
1:09:51
definitely one of the first things I do when, you know we're
1:09:53
looking at hiring somebody is look at social media because I
1:09:57
love when they expose themselves, you know, if you
1:09:59
hear a story from someone else you are getting a biased.
1:10:02
You're getting some of the story but you're only getting that
1:10:04
side of it, social media, you wrote that, you going to blame,
1:10:14
you know, as we start to wrap up one final question in relation
1:10:18
to this. So, you know, you're a very
1:10:20
high-profile coach part of it is the History and Legacy that
1:10:23
you've done at the different stops that you've had part of it
1:10:26
is that you have the Ohio State behind your name.
1:10:30
How do you when it comes to hiring and potential hiring and
1:10:34
even maybe break and making recommendations for others?
1:10:37
How do you not know how to put this sensitively?
1:10:39
How do you cut through the BS in?
1:10:42
Maybe let me explain that a little bit.
1:10:44
I have to believe that there are people who cozy up to you or try
1:10:49
to Curry favor from you because of who you are your word matter.
1:10:52
So if They can get a good word from you.
1:10:55
They're set air quotes there. How do you cut through the be a
1:10:58
you talk about people getting exposed, how do you?
1:11:00
How do you kind of guard yourself, or do you guard
1:11:02
yourself on your circle? If you will?
1:11:05
You know what? One of the things I think is
1:11:08
important is that, you know, it's important to share, you
1:11:13
know, and so I don't really guard myself, you know.
1:11:18
I think, you know, I think I'm, I'm pretty open.
1:11:22
Lee, you know, I I've had some wonderful people in my life who
1:11:30
have, you know, really elevated my life who have really assisted
1:11:34
me in in my journey and I want to help people, you know, I want
1:11:40
to be an assistant in somebody in somebody's journey and, you
1:11:46
know, I think that that's That's what I what I should do.
1:11:53
It's what I want to do, you know?
1:11:55
So sure. I mean as far as BS goes, I mean
1:11:59
I'm from Detroit. Okay.
1:12:01
Come up through the 60s. Okay.
1:12:04
You know there's you know I'm there's not a whole lot of BS
1:12:09
that people can bring me you know?
1:12:11
And what's important also is that I don't ingest the whole
1:12:15
lot of BS. Okay.
1:12:16
It's just not part of who I am. You know if I If I feel like
1:12:21
somebody is is not being authentic, then I really don't
1:12:25
have a lot of time. I will find something else in J.
1:12:28
I was find something else to do real quickly or change the
1:12:30
subject subject right away, you know.
1:12:33
But I want to be able to to if I get my journey can be of help to
1:12:39
or my experiences. And my journey can be of help to
1:12:41
anybody. I'm here, you know, and one of
1:12:44
the things that, you know, I enjoy doing is sharing and I
1:12:48
appreciate, you know, the platform you've given me today.
1:12:50
You know, to be able to just talk and I think that sharing
1:12:54
and sharing people's Journeys with each other is important.
1:12:59
And I like what you're doing, I appreciate what you're doing.
1:13:02
And and I think that the more we do this, I think the better
1:13:06
along the better, we will all the better off, we will all be
1:13:10
in getting along and I think that right now in this
1:13:14
particular time in space and time, you know it's important
1:13:18
that we do have Have a more harmonious coaching environment
1:13:23
and that can lead to a more harmonious Society.
1:13:28
I'm all for that. Bingo, I mean, you nailed it
1:13:32
there care and that is exactly. The reason we started the
1:13:35
podcast was to uplift and share the unique journeys of coaches.
1:13:41
You know, you Karen are not important because you coach at
1:13:45
Ohio State, you are important because of the experiences,
1:13:48
you've had experiences that you've Able to assist other
1:13:52
coaches and athletes out there. That's what's important kind of
1:13:55
taking that veneer off of, you know, the school name and more
1:13:59
focusing on the person. And you talked about, it's
1:14:02
important for you to be open and sharing your story and your
1:14:04
journey to help others. This is just another example of
1:14:08
the many examples that you do to back that up.
1:14:11
It's one thing to say it, right. Another thing to do it and you
1:14:14
know, you're living at. You're doing it on a daily
1:14:16
hourly minute weekly basis and I'm just so thankful that you
1:14:20
I'd share with us today. Hey, thank you.
1:14:22
I appreciate the opportunity. All right folks, that's what a
1:14:25
great guy. I can't stop the what a great
1:14:28
place to stop right there. I mean, Karen nailed it again.
1:14:31
You know, this is going to be one that I'm going to encourage
1:14:34
you to rewind and listen, again, so many awesome things, I'm just
1:14:38
so, so thankful for Karen's, you know, honestly her openness and
1:14:42
authenticity. It's easy to come here and show
1:14:44
that curated side of yourself like we talked about, but this
1:14:48
is open honesty in, Kathy. And you know, I don't sure
1:14:52
there's any better words. I could use to describe Karen.
1:14:55
It's been amazing. So, thank you so much for being
1:14:57
here today. Listening, appreciate you go
1:14:59
listen to The Back catalog. Go share this with others
1:15:01
because there's value here for you.
1:15:03
There's value here for others. Thank you so much.
1:15:04
Everybody have a great day.