Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 355: How to Build a Production Company with Michael D. Ratner

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BPS 355: How to Build a Production Company with Michael D. Ratner · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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Episode number three fifty five. The most honest form of filmmaking is to
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make a film for yourself. Peter Jackson broadcasting from a dark, windowless room
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in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the
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Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you
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how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
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Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your
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humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on
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before we get started, you might have missed yesterday's amazing seminar with film financing
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to check out that, join the tribe there, ask questions, and so
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much other stuff that we have going on there, so definitely check it out
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now. Today on the show, we have entrepreneur, producer, writer and
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director Michael D. Ratner, and Michael's a really interesting filmmaker and creative.
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He started his production company OBB Pictures back in twenty sixteen and has been directing
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television, digital podcast, branded content, social movies, music videos, everything
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and has a mass over one point six billion views for all of his content.
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He's worked with companies like Netflix and YouTube, and has worked with some
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of the biggest stars in the world like Kevin Hart, Demi Lovado, Elton
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John, and Justin Bieber, just to name a few. And Michael and
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I had a really great conversation about how he's been able to build up his
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production company, what he's been able to do, how he does it,
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and so much more so, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation
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with Michael D. Ratner. I'd like to welcome to the show, Michael
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D. Rattner. How you doing, Michael, Oh are you? I'm
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good man, I'm good. How's how's life treating you? In this weird,
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wacky world we live in? Making it through weird and wacky. We're
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weird and wackies say oh God, and you're doing productions left and right,
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and I'm assuming you never know what's going to happen, the film gets positive
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or not. It's just such a weird world man, we're living in.
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Yeah, I don't remember shooting prior to this, you know. I gotta
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say, though it's been it's been great. We have managed to stay shooting
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the entire time. That's amazing. We pivoted early. We we do this
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show a Kevin Hart called Cold as Balls and that was the first virtual shoot
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we did, like the second week into COVID in twenty twenty, and then
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we went right into Dancing with the Devil and we've been NonStop. But testing
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is now like in the DNA of what you do in a day for a
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film shoots, so's well and masks everywhere. Like before, you know,
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Michael Jackson looked like a weirdo, but now not so much. No,
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it's it's it's that that is not something. It's a it's an accessory that's
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totally It's like a watch. It's I mean, is there going to be
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a time we're not going to wear it? Like I can't even I can't
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even walk out the door now without wearing one. It just freaks me out
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if I don't have one on, it's crazy. So let's so, how
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did you get started in this insane business that we call the film industry?
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So I did question, you know, and and sort of one of those
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answers that I feel like when other people said, I roll my eyes.
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But it's the truth. I don't remember a time when I didn't want to
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do this, you know. I remember being super young and my father had
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actually I keep it here. I can turn the camera and show you.
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Yeah, it's in my stack and stuff. I have a VHS camera that
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was my father's and I taught myself how to use it, and you know,
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I would run around the house and I would shoot everything. And I
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remember my mom would be like in a robe in the morning. She'd be
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like, why are you shooting me? You know, and I just would
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like run around like a mad man. And I would I like, I
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liked you know, my brother, and I like the w w EE at
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the time and matches, and you know, I would molment and create storylines
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and and then I taught myself how to edit, and I you know,
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it was it was really interesting and and it was a time when you could
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teach yourself how to do things. And you know, when I went to
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high school, I remember teachers, uh, you know, the one specific
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one I remember it was Catcher in the Rye and we're supposed to do a
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essay on it. And I asked the teacher her name was, uh,
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I think it was missus. It was it was missus Clapper. She uh
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she she. I said, you know, I'd like to make a film
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about this rather than a paper and she said, you just want to mess
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around with your friends and shoot something and I said no. I said,
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actually, I think I can do something that speaks even more powerfully than an
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essay. And she said no. And I said, well, what if
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I do that, plus I write the essay, will you show it in
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class? And she said yes to that because it was even more work.
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And I remember the feeling I had when people watched that and it worked.
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I knew what I wanted to do with my life. Yeah. I had
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a similar experience with A. I had a high a camera now my grandpa
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gave me and I used to run around. I used to and I did
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the same thing. A teacher business law teachers like, hey, can I
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shoot a you know this this promo and she was like sure. And the
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whole climate it was standing room only because it was I was in the nineties,
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like early nineties, so it was still someone shooting something. Was like,
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what now, it's like everybody shoots, But yeah, I think it
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wasn't. I don't remember other kids running around doing it like in high school
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at least, and you know, I was in I was in Hebrew School
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shooting stuff and I would have my friends come over and i'd you know,
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we'd bude them in costumes and stuff. And I just loved it. I
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love that feeling when I knew I had something that was going to make people
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laugh. And I was waiting and in the you know, auditorium or in
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the classroom, and it was such a high and it was entertaining people and
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having something to say and getting your personality out there, and I just thought,
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I guess back then, I didn't really realize like, oh, I
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want to make it a business and I want to make money doing it.
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It was more so just I loved it. And then you know, you
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start to learn about life and realize that you can really really make this work,
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and you start getting inspired by people. And next thing you know,
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here you are now is was there a film that kind of lit the fire?
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Was there like that one You're like, oh my god, I have
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to do this. You know. My answer is the answer is I remember
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seeing early Adam Sandler movies. I remember seeing How To Filmore. Yeah,
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I remember seeing those movies and being like, wow, like this is so
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fucking cool. Can curse an occasional F bomb is fine, they'll be that'll
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be the only one. But that's how I felt at the time, right,
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And I was like, this is amazing. And I wasn't so deep
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that I knew whether I wanted to be a producer, director, writer,
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actor, comedian. Like it was just this is magic. This makes me.
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This is so cool. And then I remember the first one that really,
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this is an interesting one to note because I was a bit older at
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this point, but I remember the one that actually spoke to me a bit
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because it was this coming of age story and I thought at such heart was
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super bad. I remember seeing super Bad, Yeah, and I remember going,
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man, like, this is such. This is I know high school
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like this, and I know these stories. So those are a couple of
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films that I remember seeing. And there's some other Judd Apatow films and stuff,
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but yeah, those are those are sort of when I was like,
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man, this is this is so credible. You can make people laugh and
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you could tell stories that of heart and are relatable, and I do I
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remember, I remember those moments. Was your first directing gigs in music videos,
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so my first directing like, I mean, I can tell you the
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countless things that I directed that were just horrible and that nobody's ever seen,
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because there's there's thousands, right, and I would like and for so long
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I was ashamed of just how bad they were. I didn't know what I
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was doing. But the first thing I directed that I felt was solid was
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in films. I went to UPenn undergrad and I majored in film in English,
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but I really was just learning about cinema and cinema studies. You weren't
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learning how to be a filmmaker per se. Then I went to NYU Grad
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Film School, and that's where I really learned how to be a filmmaker.
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And I think that program is so phenomenal. And I made a film there
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called The Thirty year Old Briss, which was about an interfaith couple and it
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takes the night before We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and
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now back to the show. The guy get circumcised. And that film got
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into Trebeca. It was, you know, I think, a ten twelve
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minute short film, and that was the first thing I directed that started getting
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a little buzz. And you know, then I got into some music videos
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and stuff from there, But it was really that film and Tish that was
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the first one that I was like, oh, I think this is you
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know, this is working a bit now. You know, I've been directing
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for twenty odd years as well, and there's always that day when you're on
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set that you feel like the entire world is going to come crashing down around
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you. You're losing the sun, the camera broke, card isn't working.
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Someone deleted the last thirty three hours you shot. You know, something happens.
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Is there something that sticks out on in your mind that happened on a
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day or on a project, and how did you overcome it? As a
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director? Wow, it's like take your pick, right, it's a daily
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basis, right, Yeah, I've had everything that you just said, because
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I mean I started off as a scrappy filmmaker, like I remember, you
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know, you become you don't take anything for granted, you know, I
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started obb and I have this company now where every role is fulfilled and I
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show up and I'm the director and I'm able to just like do my thing
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and leave. But there is a certain you don't soon forget the roles of
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everybody on your on your set, if you really did them all. And
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I'm so grateful for those brutal times that I try to, you know,
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really be the best location sound person that I could be, and the times
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that I did hold the boom because you know, I am you can't see
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my full body and physique here. I'm not exactly cut out for that,
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and that's brutal. Job's brutal, brutal and under standing why you need to
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get room tone and understanding that somebody, if your call time is at six
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am, needs to go get the truck to get the lights and that's at
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three am, and you know you do all of that, and you know
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you have to you I remember peaing in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, you know,
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before I went to film school, and I was in charge of going and
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driving this like broken down van from Pittsburgh to Johnstown, and I thought I
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was going to like die because the wheels were going to fall off, and
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and those those experiences really make you a much much better leader and director.
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And I'm very grateful that I had those experiences, while in the moment,
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you don't see it that way. So yeah, there's countless examples of not
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really knowing that you should be backing up your drives and it's like a whole
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day's work. It's knocked out and that's like, you know, twist the
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knife. So I've had all of that, but you make it work and
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you keep going, and you know, nothing's ever wor it was supposed to
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be. Nothing's ever what was scripted, nothing's ever what you had in your
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head, but it ends up being something special. So there's there's so many
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different examples. I mean at Johnstown when I haven't talked about that in probably
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ten years. That was That was crazy because I was the PA. I
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was so excited to shadow the director. I thought I was going to be
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able to do that. And they're like, hey, there's a van four
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hours away. You need to go get it and then come back. You
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know, that was the whole day and I really I remember it broke down
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and you know, I was like, I'm going to get fired from this
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first pilot ever because I'm not going to get this van here. And you
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know, it all works out. Oh dude. I was. I was
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interning at a show for Fox at Universal Studios and the producers like, hey,
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the producer wants to talk to you. I'm like, oh, shoot,
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like the showrunner wants to talk to me, and I go into his
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office, like, I like, what you've been doing here? Kid?
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I have a special project for you. I'm like, well, what is
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it? He's like, I needed to help me move you. That gives
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you a lot of time to then go and and find your moment to make
14:01
an impression exactly exactly what I pay so much attention to that who's who's who
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looks like they're just there to help and be a positive influence and voice.
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And you know that that doesn't go unnoticed if you pick the pocket and you
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play those situations right. And I think that again, all the all of
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those experiences and doing all these different roles and before you you know, you
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will be in charge and you will be making those choices. And if you
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really know what you're talking about versus if you don't, it becomes really clear.
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And people want to work for people that they feel like have done it
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before, right, No, No, quite? Yeah, man, A
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season A season crew can smell can smell it five minutes in if the directors
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knows what they're doing or not like and they will roll you over depending on
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where you are in the in the world. La crew, New York Crew,
14:54
they even Atlanta crew. They're gonna, oh season guys and guys will
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they'll run over you because they just don't have the patience for it. I've
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had the pleasure of talking to a lot of you know, really amazing guests
15:07
on my show, and one thing I've always wondered. I always ask,
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is about this thing that I can't believe some of these Oscar winners and Emmy
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winners and the imposter syndrome. And it's a thing that you know, I
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feel it, I mean, but writers feel it everything. I was wondering
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if you've ever had to deal with that on your own, meaning like,
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see, sometimes I've talked talked to some guys who, you know, literally
15:30
want oscars and like do you have any yet? Sometimes I'm my last movie
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that was one hundred million dollars, I felt like any moment now Security was
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going to come in and go, this guy doesn't know what he's doing,
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Come on, get him out of here. Is it just an artist thing
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or do you do you? Do you ever feel that? I mean,
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like an a normal artist would, And how do you deal with it if
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you do feel it? I try to spend that positively I try to the
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answer is of course, because like another word for that is insecurity, right,
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sure, right, And I try to think to myself in those moments,
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you know, hard work pays off and you know nobody knows what they're
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doing, but we're going to figure it out. And also just first,
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I'm so happy I didn't have like early, early, early success, amen.
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And the reason for that is it's always with you and it's not like
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it took me forever. I feel very lucky that I'm that I am where
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I am right now at my age, and it's not lost on me.
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But it didn't happen right away from me at all. And you get told
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no so frequently it's almost like you just you need to be tough, luon
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because every day you have an idea of people like oh yeah cool, like
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call me back in a couple of weeks, or like no, just no,
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right, and then it's all of a sudden, yeah that sucks.
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That's for you. Was that a joke exactly? And you get deflated and
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then you get back up. And I think the people are making this business
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are like wildly resilient, right, And I think that you you basically go
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and get to a point where you remember those no's and people start all of
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a sudden saying yes, and then eventually you're actually gonna have to turn stuff
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down, which is such a foreign concept when you when you're starting your career,
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and I think, in those moments of frustration or you're not sure if
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you're if you belong and whatnot, I try to just think back to,
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well, I must be doing something right. I'm here right, and those
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nose turned into yes is and I try my best not to get riddled with
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anxiety and frustration. I say try it because I fail at this sometimes,
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right, And I try to just think, you dreamed of this, so
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let's just figure it out, just go for it and not go and cave
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or fulld you know. I got to say one of the I mentioned before
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that Kevin Hart show that we do. It's about to enter season six.
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Kevin and I actually had a conversation very early on we started working together,
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and I asked him, I said, shouldn't you be on a beach,
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like just sipping like a my tie, like what are we doing here?
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Because he just like this guy works harder than anybody's the consummant pro and he
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did. He said to me, he said, I remember all those nos.
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He said, I'm still catching it. Do you think I'd say yes
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to a lot? I'm catching up for all the nose because he didn't make
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it right away, Oh took him in and I related to it so much,
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so I don't know. I try to think more about that. You
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know. It doesn't exactly answer your question, but in those moments of like,
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you know, do I belong or am I like here? Like how
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did this? I just try to go like, yes we are, and
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like we're going to figure it out and we don't know everything because nobody does,
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and let's just let's grind. You know. One funny story that really
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answers your question is I was once I really liked this film and thought I
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could make a difference in a later stage. You know. I didn't know
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that you could come into a film that's already in the can and edit and
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help and make an impact like this early on in my career. And I
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was on this call that I never should have been on because I was super
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young and like trying to like show that I had great ideas, so,
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you know, but I didn't know what I was doing. I'd never done
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it. Before, and I remember they asked me a simple question and I
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said, I think our connections bad. Hold on, and I googled it.
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I didn't know how to. I didn't even know what they were talking
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about. Yeah, I googled it fans and I was like, ah,
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yeah, you know. And that's just the hustle. Hustle you know.
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There you go. Your hat says that right now, you just figure it
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out. And that doesn't mean be a BS artist, far from it.
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But like hustle, ask questions, ask for help, and just roll with
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it. We're all in the same situation. No, no, no question
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now. Yeah, I was going to ask you about Kevin Kevin Hart's Cold
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Balls, which is I've seen, by the way, I've seen many episodes.
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I freaking I'm a huge Kevin Hart fan, Like, who is it?
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I mean, who is it? What is it like working with I've
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heard the same thing from people that worked with him. We'll be right back
20:02
after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Nothing
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but a professional, wonderful to work with, just there on time. Does
20:15
his job makes people laugh and it's just working hard. What is it like
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working with him? And is there something you've taken away from you know,
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just working with a star of that calibri. He's a worldwide, huge star
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and megabankerball movie star, multi hyphen it CEO, business owner. Yeah,
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Kevin and I had many conversations. I mean, obviously, you know I
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own and run OBB which is one hat I direct, that's another hat I
20:45
produce it. And he's a guy with a lot of dashes if you were
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to put try to introduce him right, and what I'll say is he has
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it and I might see, but just there is something about he's special.
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I mean the way his brain works, the way he reads a script and
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just knows it immediately, like he inside out. Something about his brain is
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different and he is gifted. What makes Kevin har Kevin Hart is there's that
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plus this crazy work ethic, plus this like you know, charm and everything
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else. He's hilarious, but he has this intangible gift that I mean it's
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someone should study his brain. He's got this crazy mind and memory and gift
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and then you pair that with all the other checkboxes of things he has and
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you get Kevin Hart. But yeah, I mean, you work with a
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guy like that and you're just in the presence of you know, someone who's
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really really great. Yeah. And you know, I've had the pleasure of
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working with those kind of stars and you just know it when they walk in
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the room, there's just that thing that it's intangible. It's there's like,
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oh, yeah, that's why they're a huge movie star. I get it
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now. They don't have to say a word, you just go up.
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Yeah. It goes beyond confidence or the way they carry themselves. It's something,
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it's like this aura. And you know, I work with a lot
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of really talented people, and I think I have a real knack for getting
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great performances from people in scripted and unscripted, in movies and TV and in
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what have you? Right, And I think that that skill set, I
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can navigate the medium, whether it's by the way, in an audio we
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have an audio division, Like, I think I know how to go and
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communicate and get those things done. So I have a certain way of going
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about it. And you know, with Kevin specifically, anytime that I go
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to do my normal course, he just requires so much less or none at
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all, you know, and it's just like and I'm always like, man,
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I'll see how this goes. And he nails it nails it every time.
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So the prep work just does. And that's not to say that he's
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some guy that shows up and doesn't do prep. Whatever he's doing is working,
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and it's just like go for it and it never disappoints. He never
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seems like he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he I'll always be
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ready to go with a note and he'll just do it on his own.
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It's it's amazing, it's amazing. Now you've you know, obviously you've directed
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a lot of music videos. Is there anything that you brought from your music
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video experience into documentary because you have made a handful of documentary it's pretty high
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profile ones at that. Yeah, I think that I like mixing the world.
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Like I think that music videos are so stylistic, you know, you
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can stylize them so much, and in a in a very competitive world where
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there's so many docks right now, making stylistic choices to make yours rise up
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and feel special and different is a great move. Like you know, we
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were the opening night headliner film at south By Southwest is here with Dancing with
23:48
the Devil and with Demi and the opening sequence of It's a four part piece,
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and the opening sequence basically plays like this, like ex our music video,
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and it's got all these little, like riddled pieces of the story that
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are symbolic, and if you were to play that piece straight through, it
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actually tells a story. It's more music video than it is doc, but
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it's an opening sequence, right. I think I took that from sort of
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my music video brain, and I think that when making docs, specifically music
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docs, I like to take parts of the creative and what makes those musicians
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so special and put that into the DNA of the filmmaking and some capacity,
24:38
and sometimes then that sort of gets meld with more music video type motifs and
24:44
it's fun to sort of weave in and out of that. Now, you
24:48
know, I've seen some of your docs and you're able to get your subjects
24:52
to open up to you and be very, very vulnerable. What tips do
24:59
you have word filmmakers listening to be able to do that? I mean,
25:03
and you're doing it with some of the biggest stars in the world, which
25:06
I'm assuming is a whole other level of comfortable that you have to get in
25:10
order to do that. But what suggestions do you have for filmmakers out there,
25:15
Well, forget about the cameras. Forget about And what I mean by
25:25
that is not forget that they're there. That's very obvious. And what I
25:27
mean is, whatever day you plan to shoot, you better be working on
25:33
your relationship with that person in a very non transactional way, way earlier on.
25:42
And that means forget that you're directing them, forget that you're one day
25:48
sitting down from a very genuine place. You need to care about that person
25:52
and you need to care about the story you're telling and the vulnerability that you're
26:00
referring to is earned, it's not just happenstance. And that's a comfort level
26:06
of many many off the record and conversations, and you know, you ultimately
26:12
get to a point where you understand what's your north star? You got to
26:15
be on the same page with people too, what are you trying to accomplish?
26:18
And you know, why should they trust you? And you need to
26:22
go and have those hard and difficult conversations depending on what the subject matter is.
26:27
But I think whether it's light or whether it's super heavy, you need
26:32
to have that relationship and that takes time and energy and that stuff. There's
26:36
no instant gratification with that, you know, you're nobody's gonna applaud You'd be
26:38
like, you're such a great director, this film is so great, and
26:41
you're not even gonna know yourself. You talk about being insecure, You're not
26:45
gonna know yourself if you're if you're going to achieve what you're looking to collectively
26:48
with that person. But just put in the time and and then you know,
26:53
ask those questions in a way that are more conversational. I think you
26:57
know I've said this before publicly, but like, there is this moment when
27:00
I can tell that the interview has turned into a conversation, and the second
27:04
that's happened, that's when you really start to speak in a way that's just
27:10
so special. And it all comes down to trust in your relationship, and
27:18
you know that just means you got to put the time in, like with
27:19
all things. Yeah, it's funny. I've had I've had that experience with
27:22
my guests sometimes where I'm talking to them and they forget that we're recording and
27:26
they start asking like personal questions and like hey, where do you live?
27:30
And I, you know, maybe we could I'm like, dud, dude,
27:32
we're recording. Still and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah,
27:33
I forgot, I forgot. Did you fall into that? And that's the
27:36
magic place? That really is a magic place. Yeah. And you know
27:41
there's also you know, someone could argue, well, if you're too close
27:45
you know exactly what they want, are you're going to be too subjective in
27:48
what you're saying you know? And the answer is no. You know,
27:51
you can tell an objective story while understanding someone's heart and what they're after and
27:56
why they're doing something. You know, one of the most interesting things was
27:59
some of the really you know, large temple movies and projects that I've made
28:04
as of late with big stars in the dock space specifically, is you know,
28:10
it's really unique for that vulnerability and that window into these people's lives sometimes
28:15
the good, the bad, and the ugly. For people to do that
28:18
while they're in their prime, I think that's really unique to my work.
28:22
Right, You've seen many people later on in life. I got nothing to
28:26
lose. Here's what happened back in the day. You know, cool,
28:30
that's really cool, that is, But there's something really special about somebody who
28:33
has everything to lose, who's in the middle of it. Doesn't need to
28:37
be doing that talking about those things because they want to connect with their fans
28:40
and relate and you know, specifically to call out you know, Demi Lovado
28:44
and Justin Bieber who both did that in their respective projects, you know,
28:48
Seasons and Dancing with the Devil, I think are two prime examples of I
28:52
am struggling and I am dealing with mental health issues and I'm dealing with Trump.
28:56
And that's because I'm a human being, has nothing to do with that.
29:00
I'm a celebrity, right, that is so bold, and that has
29:03
nothing to do with me. Those are choices that they each made, and
29:07
I was there to help facilitate their vision, which was really special. You
29:11
know. It's so funny because I think in the era that I grew up,
29:17
you know, I mean, I'm a bit older than you, but
29:18
I mean I remember when Michael Jackson and Madonna and you know, all those
29:22
big stars of the eighties and nineties, they they're put on these pedestals and
29:26
they don't they're not shown as human. Yeah, they're they're just they're just
29:32
the things almost And they never showed vulnerability ever because I wasn't expected of them.
29:37
But in today's generation and today's artists. It's almost expected, like the
29:42
Billie Eilishes of the world, and they are expected to be vulnerable and to
29:48
be authentic and not packaged because fans want authenticity. People want authenticity. They
29:55
are not going to just oh, you're pretty, we'll be right after a
30:00
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Great, there's a
30:08
thousand other pretty people behind you. What makes you special? Oh you can
30:12
send great, there's a thousand other people who can say really great too,
30:15
what makes you special? And and your docks really kind of open up those
30:19
doors to you know, two of the largest stars in the world right now.
30:23
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that that is the different different
30:26
you know, differentiator, Like I think that you know, the ability to
30:32
go and sure Instagram you get like fifteen second clips into people's lives, but
30:37
I always say people have like their Instagram personality, it's not really of course
30:40
yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, certain way on there and it's quick and
30:42
it's but like, that is access, right. We didn't used to get
30:45
that access with a Michael Jackson or some of the artists you named, but
30:48
that didn't really you know, obviously exist. But I still think these docks
30:52
are that makes it even harder, right because it's like, oh, well
30:55
you're getting a window win. So what makes the docks special? You know,
30:57
we've already seen them inside the house, so we've already gotten the unfiltered
31:02
version. It's like kind of that's still a bit of not people. It's
31:07
polished or it's raw for a specific reason, like it's you know, it's
31:11
it's raw. But like, what we try to do is really tell a
31:15
story. And I don't believe that you need you need an hour and a
31:21
half or two hours. Still a story. I don't believe that you need
31:22
half an hour. I believe that story and duration and what's happening in content
31:26
right now with all of the different options on distributor and you know, varying
31:33
agnostic lengths of things is phenomenal. Also think that, you know, just
31:37
quick hitters on social is not the way to really get deep and learn about
31:44
stuff. So I think that these these music docs are a way to connect.
31:49
And you know what, even more so in a time when touring stopped
31:52
right the world back that we started talking about like you could not connect with
31:56
fans, So what are you doing? What are you up to? And
31:59
how can you go and speak to speak to those people that normally get to
32:02
go and get maybe see you on the road or see performances or shows that
32:07
you're on. So everybody had to like take a deep breath and settle down
32:12
and stay in one place a bit. When you were doing Dancing with the
32:15
Devil with Demie Lovado, you know, I you know, just at the
32:19
beginning of the first episode, you know, it's like six months before the
32:22
overdose, so you started that process and the overdose happened in the middle of
32:28
it, right So actually, interestingly enough, they were working on a doc.
32:34
It was a follow up simply complicated that I was not involved in,
32:37
and then when the overdose, unfortunately happened, they stopped entirely, of course,
32:45
And when they decided that they were ready to talk about that, I
32:47
had recently, you know, months before put out Seasons, and that's what
32:54
ultimately I think made DEMI feel like, ooh, you know, we could
33:00
potentially tell this together because that tone and that level of authenticity and rawness was
33:09
what I think they were looking to do, because I think that film would
33:12
have been a different tone and style obviously, So it just called for a
33:17
fresh restart, and I came in then, but I was able to inherit
33:22
some of that footage obviously from before, and that was one of the filmmaking
33:24
challenges, how to go and take some of the older stuff and ultimately shoot
33:29
new stuff. And that's how we started. Yeah, it's and it's you're
33:32
working with your subject as opposed to a documentarian who's recording a subject but is
33:37
disconnected, meaning that they go off, they edit and the subject has no
33:42
say on how it looks, where now you're I could only imagine how difficult
33:45
that is. You're also now, hey, we're going to show the deepest,
33:49
darkest parts that you want to show. We're going to expose all of
33:52
it, and that's what this movie needs in order to do it. And
33:55
they're involved with you, so that takes another level of bravery on the artists
34:00
standpoint totally, and and it is. It's it's unique, and it's nuanced,
34:07
and it's political, and you got to ultimately navigate that and it causes
34:13
some awkward viewing sessions right where you know, on the one hand, I've
34:19
poured my soul into the edit and getting the story out there and trying to
34:22
achieve this, but you know, I'm sitting in a room watching some really
34:27
dark moments of somebody's life with them. That's that's a very you know unique
34:32
you know, you imagine, you know, we all go through ship,
34:36
every one of us. But have you watched it on film? You know?
34:39
Your you right talking about it? And then oh, can you send
34:44
me archival footage from home videos? And can you connect me to your mother
34:49
to send me videos of you as a kid? I mean imagine sitting there
34:51
and watching that's the experience they go through, and you need to really be
34:57
prepared for the reactions that will yield, and understanding again that it's for a
35:05
specific purpose, and you do it and you work with the person. You
35:08
know, I've never put out on the projects we're discussing here, like those
35:13
get seen and discussed before they come out with the artist, and that does
35:17
not mean that they're going well. You know, here's a list of things
35:20
you can't say, you know that I haven't had that experience because there's always
35:24
a conversation at the beginning of let's make sure that I'm the right person for
35:29
this, and if I'm the right person, we need to tell a real
35:32
story and we can't make a propaganda puff piece like I just not who.
35:36
That's not the type of storyteller I am, and I don't think that's the
35:39
what your you know, fans deserve, or ultimately what you want to do.
35:43
And we've always had those difficult or just I shouldn't even say those conversations
35:45
aren' difficult. It's just very straightforward conversations, and as such, I think
35:51
it's resulted in these really special projects. Now. I mean, you've again
35:53
worked with Demian and Justin and you know, two of the biggest stars in
35:58
the world at the moment, you know, being in the orbit of those
36:04
kind of stars, especially close to those orbits. I've had small moments of
36:08
those as well, where you're just in the orbit and just like there's satellites
36:12
around, there's planets running around, and they are the center of the universe.
36:15
What is it like, day in, day out being with some of
36:21
the biggest stars in the world and seeing what they go through because you're not
36:25
just a satellite, you're like next too, and you're capturing it. So
36:30
that must be a very different experience. You must have a sympathy for them
36:35
that most might not because you see what they go through and things are on
36:38
camera and off so what is it like just as a human being next to
36:44
another human going through that experience? Great question and the answer. I've tried
36:53
so hard to in my work explain what that experience is like, and you
37:02
know, being hard on myself, I've never effectively done that because nothing can
37:07
do with justice besides seeing it firsthand. And I've tried. I've tried to
37:13
do the chaotic cuts of paparazzi and things happening, and it's like now to
37:19
really see the forethought that goes into just moving, just getting up and going
37:23
to do something because of how famous they are, that is like a second
37:30
to second reality now. I've also been very careful to be mindful of nobody
37:37
wants to hear the woe is me. I'm a celebrity in my life,
37:39
you know, I can't move like there's a lot of perks, right,
37:43
So it's tough, But that doesn't change the reality that, like it's hard,
37:49
there are parts that are really hard, and human nature is not designed
37:53
for fame and celebrity. We're not designed to be told how great we are
37:59
twenty four to seven. We're not designed to not be able to go outside
38:01
of question. Question, question, uncomfortable question, uncomfortable question. So,
38:07
yeah, it does make you sympathetic or I should just say, really understanding
38:13
of all sides of it. Nothing simple, and it makes you just sort
38:17
of get it all. Also, it made me really understand that just just
38:22
because you read something does not mean it's true at all. Like you know,
38:27
you know it, there's there's there's people can say anything about anybody,
38:34
and when you're really famous, people just say stuff. And then you know
38:37
but that that words matter, words have power. News you know outlets,
38:42
you would think that, oh, well, you know it's there. They're
38:44
a news outlet. It's got to be real, Like, no, it's
38:46
it doesn't. I've just seen a lot of stuff where I've been with people
38:50
and then you know that there's an article saying there was somewhere else. I'm
38:52
like, wait a se well, you know, and that you start like
38:54
realizing just that's that's a daily occurrence. And I think that while stars who
39:00
have been in the limelight for a long time probably get a bit immune to
39:04
it, it's still annoying. It's still frustrating, and it can cause you
39:07
to act out a character at times. And it's a really interesting peak behind
39:12
the curtain as to what those people go through, and you know, many
39:16
of whom really do a pretty damn good job. And sure they slip here
39:21
and there, but for the most part, I've been really impressed and I
39:23
have no idea how I would handle that sort of a level of celebrity.
39:29
And that's why it's so interesting. That's why I asked you the questions,
39:31
because you get the kind of role play that almost you know, cause play
39:37
that if you will, because you're right next to them. It's not you
39:39
doing it. You could walk away at any second and no one's really going
39:43
to stop you in the street. For the most part, maybe in LA,
39:47
but generally speaking, it is. It is. It's fascinating to me,
39:52
and so many people want to be rich and famous. We'll be right
39:57
back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
40:06
But they don't understand that there is a cost man, there is a cost
40:09
and look like you said, no, woe is me? They looked for
40:13
it. I mean, funny story, I was on the set. I
40:16
was doing music videos in LA fifteen years ago something like that, and I
40:22
was invited to an Usher music video and there was like, there's this young
40:27
kid who's going to be in it and I'm like, who's this young kid.
40:30
He's like, oh, some kid named Justin Bieber, and I had
40:31
he was nobody. Justin was nobody. He was fifteen. He's tripping over
40:37
cables, he's just trying to dance and there I'm just like, oh cool.
40:39
I get to see Usher six months later, baby baby hits. I
40:45
was just like, what the hell? And so I have a I saw
40:51
Justin when he was a kid, like he was literally just fifteen, he
40:53
was just but he was so even at that moment when I saw him and
40:58
I was on set with him, you could just see it. You're like,
41:01
there's something there. I don't know what it is. And this is
41:05
not the song because I saw the music, I'm like, no, this
41:07
is not the one, but it was. It was really interesting and people
41:12
do ask for this, but they have to be really careful what Yeah.
41:15
I think also question is you don't know what you're asking for it till you
41:19
get it, and you got so it's like this is it? So yeah,
41:23
I think again, it's just it's fascinating. Yeah, And like with
41:29
all things again, there's pros and cons. Yeah, exactly, like you
41:32
know, you know bad Day who knows who knows who it is. It
41:37
is a pros and cons. Now tell me about your new film with Justin
41:39
Our World. Yeah, came out in October, really exciting, It was
41:45
fun. It was you know, you do a heavy doc series like Seasons
41:47
and then you pivot and you make a really fun film that's you know,
41:52
obviously COVID is like looming over this thing, and people were going through really
41:58
a rough time and unfortunately, of course people were dying from COVID and everybody
42:05
was in a weird spot with work and figuring out how to provide and that's
42:08
a character in this piece. But once we get to the stage, it's
42:13
a celebration of like his music, and it's a nostalgic walk, you know,
42:17
down memory lane from baby to now and there's it's really verite and gritty,
42:25
and I think it was really cool how Justin was like a DP and
42:30
shot himself in it and Haley, and you know that was really because of
42:32
safety protocols. I couldn't be there all the time good in a weak style.
42:37
And then obviously we juxtaposing that with thirty two cameras set up with drones
42:45
and all the flashiness. The Night of the show on the top of the
42:47
Beverly Hilton was pretty unique, and I think it captured the spirit of that
42:52
moment in time and it was really it was really awesome. I enjoyed making
42:58
a concert doc, you know, And that's really what it was. It
43:00
was a concert heavy dock and it's it was. It was a blast,
43:06
and I think people really enjoyed it. And how I mean, how was
43:08
it shooting during the COVID protocol? Man, Like, I mean, it's
43:12
on such a big it was a pretty big production. I mean, thirty
43:15
two cameras. It's no joke, It's no I'm like, my, my,
43:20
my, my butt just puckered. When you said thirty two cameras.
43:22
I'm like, oh Jesus, how did I mean? I'm assuming at some
43:24
point you're just like, hopefully I'll get some footage off of those those sets
43:28
of cameras because you're not seeing everything at all times. Right. Well,
43:31
it was just we were shooting the hell out of it, right, I
43:35
mean, we had drones in the sky, we had cameras on balconies,
43:39
we had long lenses from certain is. Uh, you know, we we
43:44
were doubling the livestream cameras and then we had the ability to convert it to
43:47
four K, which is obviously what ended up on the Amazon film, and
43:52
we then had a bunch of you know, running gun shooters getting cool you
43:57
know, dynamic shots and the and whatnot. But it was really crazy shooting
44:02
in COVID because we had our bubble and there was daily testing and if somebody
44:07
went down, the whole show is at risk obviously, so you had to
44:10
just be super, super careful and everything was incredibly thought through and we you
44:17
know, luckily pulled it off. But that what made the loom of COVID
44:23
and everything going on and pulling off the show a very interesting storyline also,
44:28
like we had to live that making it. It was not just manufactured drama.
44:31
It was like, all right, everybody's negative, okay, good good,
44:34
you know, and Nick to Moro goes down with COVID as his creative
44:37
director, and then Justin had to fully step up and lead the team,
44:40
which you know, was a good story point because part of this was about
44:44
Justin really coming into his own and really leading every part of his life for
44:47
the first time. Really. I mean, he's he's a grown man,
44:52
you know, and we all think, you know, we remember what you
44:53
hear Justin and you're like, well, baby, and he's grown out.
44:58
He's a grown ass man with a family. He's he's a grown man with
45:01
a wife and and and you know, leading many of the same people he's
45:05
been with. He's incredibly loyal, which is really cool. You know.
45:07
You go and one of the storylines that I thought was important to hit home
45:10
and he thought as well, was like, you know, he's been with
45:14
the same people for all those years. It's very rare to see in any
45:16
field, but in music especially, So it's it's a fun one. It's
45:21
a really fun watch and you know, it's it's it's just enjoyable to go
45:25
and watch some good music and you know, you'll realize how many Justin Bieber.
45:31
But if you're a fan, of course you know, but even if
45:32
not, you'll be like, man, he's one talented person. There's a
45:37
lot of songs that you don't even sometimes I don't even realize is Justin And
45:38
you're like, oh, he's a Justin Baber song. Oh yeah, like
45:44
he's or he guest starred on this, or get you know, you know,
45:45
guests popped on that, and it's just he's it's hard to believe he's
45:50
been around for fifteen odd years at this point in the game and still and
45:54
still going and still being relative, you know, relative because relevant to excuse
46:00
me, because a lot of those boy bands, as we all know from
46:04
the nineties in the early two thousands, there, they're not relevant. He
46:08
just put out a number one album. He's about to go on like a
46:12
sold out arena tour. So pretty impressive. He's doing. He's doing all
46:16
right, He's doing okay, He's okay, He's okay. Now, what's
46:20
next for you? Man? Working on another big documentary right now that I
46:27
have not announced yet, but we are into it and seven months into it
46:31
hopefully will come out end of this year beginning of next. I'm producing another
46:36
big doc that have not announced yet that sorry, this just went off,
46:42
that we are in pre pro on, which is really exciting. And then
46:46
we have an animated music show that's really exciting that's with the network that we
46:52
haven't announced yet. So there's there's there's a bunch of stuff. There's a
46:57
there's there's some scripted TV shows, and then there's a couple of these doc
47:00
films. We're working on a whole bunch of stuff. And then really exciting
47:06
for us, we're building out our first studio here in La so we have,
47:09
yeah, a big production facility where we're building out stuff so we'll be
47:14
able to bring a lot of our productions in house. But it's been great.
47:16
I mean, we are going to be forty eight people here at OBB
47:21
by the end of year, which is just a number. Yeah, it's
47:27
been exciting time. But you know, we have this audio business that does
47:30
podcasts and audio projects. You know, we have our film group, we
47:35
have TV. There's a lot of stuff going on and at the heart of
47:37
it all is stories and we're very lucky that we're in a time when there
47:42
are there's such a need everybody needs content right now, and we're making stuff
47:45
and it's a it's a fun time to play because dollars are not just coming
47:50
from financiers or distributors, coming from brands coming from all over the place.
47:54
So we're working in a number of different areas with a number of different partners
48:00
and having a blast. Yeah, Kevin Hart's cole Balls is by Old Spice.
48:05
That's that's exactly right, And yeah, we have seen that. There's
48:08
another one. We got season six of that coming up that will be shooting,
48:12
which is just I no matter what size project or what I'm doing or
48:15
what's going on, I find out how to carve out time to direct that
48:19
show. It's just so fun. I can imagine I have to like do
48:23
these wonky schedules for like, you know, whatever big thing I'm working on,
48:27
because I'm like I want to. That's such an example of the new
48:30
TV modern win. You know. It's it's a twelve to fifteen minute like
48:35
internet show that just blew up and gets millions of viewers with a brand sponsor,
48:39
and that works right with a move with an A plus bankable movie starts.
48:43
That's an example of just how our landscape has changed, right and being
48:46
you know, they shouldn't call it film school anymore. It's content school,
48:51
you know, and and and people should want to be content makers, not
48:52
filmmakers like and again, nothing wrong. I'm a film I love film,
48:58
but I always think, you know, if some of these iconic filmmakers from
49:02
the past were starting today, they'd be using all of these different technologies and
49:07
distribute Spielberg Yeah, Spielberg a guy, yeah. Tell stories at different lines.
49:13
Tell the best one minute story, Tell the best five minute story.
49:15
And that's what we're doing. We're doing stuff on all these different mediums and
49:20
just having a lot of fun. Now I'm going to ask a your questions,
49:22
to ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying
49:24
to break into the business today? Make it actually make it, don't talk
49:29
about it, make it, go outside and shoot it, and if it's
49:31
not great, make it a little bit better next time. But don't just
49:35
develop forever. Don't just put it on paper, Go and make it.
49:37
You can actually make stuff, now, do it yourself. What is the
49:42
lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or
49:45
in life. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
49:52
now back to the show. Ninety per is good enough? You know,
50:02
don't don't like us, otherwise you'll be just paralyzed and you'll never put stuff
50:07
out. You know, delegation right, you know, like don't you don't
50:15
need you can't do everything. If you're really going to go and have influence
50:17
and make a lot of stuff at once, you got to build a great
50:21
team. But you know, I think it's it's it's letting go and and
50:24
putting stuff out to the world and and and not caving into that fear that
50:29
starts. It's not there yet, It's not there yet. You know you
50:30
gotta you gotta release it eventually. And last question, three of your favorite
50:36
films of all time? I think I gave you three already, Which which
50:39
are Happy Gilmore, Billy Madison, super Bad, I can Love, I
50:45
Love We Yeah, we covered it, we started it. I I I
50:51
mean, I love Charlie Chaplin movies. I love Chaplain films watch oh yeah,
50:57
oh yeah, even film yeah, even the film like Limelight. I
51:00
know that gets like I like, I really love Chaplain. I And you
51:05
know he made short films and silent films and to talkies, so I'll add
51:08
Chaplain into them. Oh. Can you imagine if Chaplin was around today,
51:12
like what he would be doing? Oh god, different kind of thing,
51:15
a lot of having a lot of fun. I always like imagine Kubrick with
51:19
today's technology. Oh my god, talk about shooting. You'd shoot forever before
51:23
you had the limitations of film. Can you imagine you just shoot and shoot?
51:28
Michael Man, it's been a pleasure talking to you, brother. Thank
51:30
you again so much for being on the show Man and a continued success.
51:32
Thank you for having me fun. I want to thank Michael so much for
51:37
coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Trap today. Thank
51:40
you so much, Michael. If you want to get links to anything we
51:43
spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting
51:46
dot TV forward slash three fifty five. Thank you so much for listening to
51:51
guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you
51:53
soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof screen right in
52:00
dot t v. Mm hmm