Latest / Legally Brunette / Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part - The Teacher, The Student & The Murder

Transcript

Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part - The Teacher, The Student & The Murder · Legally Brunette

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to an episode of Till Death Do
0:04
Speaker 1: Us Part. I will be your host today Emily Simpson
0:07
Speaker 1: along with Shane all Right. Today's case is the Pamela
0:12
Speaker 1: Smart case. You might remember this name from the nineties
0:16
Speaker 1: because you and I are gen xers, so you know
0:19
Speaker 1: we grew up in the nineties.
0:20
Speaker 2: Yep.
0:21
Speaker 1: This is the story of Pamela Smart, who was a
0:24
Speaker 1: school media coordinator, so her career was out of high school. Okay,
0:29
Speaker 1: she became involved in a relationship with a fifteen year
0:33
Speaker 1: old student. This is in nineteen ninety. Then her husband
0:38
Speaker 1: ends up murdered. So the question is was.
0:44
Speaker 2: It just coincidence, was convenient?
0:49
Speaker 1: Was it just the student acting alone? Or was Pamela
0:54
Speaker 1: Smart the mastermind behind her husband's murder. How do you
0:58
Speaker 1: remember the story because I you know, when I started
1:00
Speaker 1: researching this, it kind of brought up some old memories.
1:03
Speaker 1: I was like, I think I remember this case.
1:04
Speaker 2: I vaguely remember it, and I the probably the only Well,
1:10
Speaker 2: first of all, now it seems like teachers sleep with
1:11
Speaker 2: all the kids. Well, it does feel like maybe it's
1:14
Speaker 2: just an internet thing. So you see it more when
1:16
Speaker 2: it happened in other states, and you know, it spreads
1:19
Speaker 2: on the internet, but it seems like it's happening all
1:21
Speaker 2: the time. But I remember that was very like taboo,
1:24
Speaker 2: Like yeah, I was like whoa. Yeah, But there was
1:28
Speaker 2: a TV made for TV movie and Helen Hunt played
1:31
Speaker 2: Pamela Smart. Yeah, and the actor that played Ben Sever
1:35
Speaker 2: from Growing Pains played the child. And I remember, as
1:39
Speaker 2: a kid because I was probably like junior high or
1:41
Speaker 2: something watching and being really confused is to Ben Seaver
1:44
Speaker 2: playing such like a darker character. And it was really odd,
1:47
Speaker 2: like it did. Yeah, as a kid, you just stereotype everyone, right,
1:50
Speaker 2: you think, and you think the Severs are happy family,
1:52
Speaker 2: and they actually the dad's a therapist and the mom's
1:55
Speaker 2: a newscaster. Yeah, and so it was really weird anyway,
1:58
Speaker 2: that's the only reason I remember it.
2:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, this is a fun fact. Pamela Smart's trial
2:05
Speaker 1: was the first trial to be put on television that
2:08
Speaker 1: was till Oh wow, really yeah, I thought it was
2:11
Speaker 1: like OJ or something. No, this is in nineteen ninety
2:13
Speaker 1: It was Pamela Smart and it was the first trial
2:15
Speaker 1: to be televised, I believe, from beginning to end. So
2:18
Speaker 1: that's another question, is because she was so heavily in
2:21
Speaker 1: the media reminds me again of Amanda Knox, where it
2:24
Speaker 1: was all like, you know, the sexy teacher and seductive. Right.
2:29
Speaker 2: More people want to talk about the juiciness of it
2:31
Speaker 2: rather than like the fact the harm that's caused and
2:35
Speaker 2: the facts and yeah.
2:36
Speaker 1: All right. So Pamela and Wohas was born in Coral Gables, Florida.
2:41
Speaker 1: This is in nineteen sixty seven. Pamela and her family
2:45
Speaker 1: relocate to Wyndham, New Hampshire, where she when she was
2:48
Speaker 1: a child. She is known as a strong student and
2:51
Speaker 1: she's a cheerleader throughout high school. In nineteen eighty five
2:55
Speaker 1: to around eighty six, Pamela graduates, graduates from high school
2:58
Speaker 1: and enrolls at Florida State University. She meets Greg Smart
3:02
Speaker 1: at a New Year's Eve party and the two begin
3:04
Speaker 1: a relationship. In nineteen eighty eight, Pamela graduates from Florida
3:10
Speaker 1: State University and she and Greg mary. Greg begins training
3:14
Speaker 1: as a broker while Pamela takes a job as a
3:17
Speaker 1: media coordinator in a New Hampshire school district. I believe
3:22
Speaker 1: he is a broker. I think that also means like insurance,
3:26
Speaker 1: Like I think he's in just that whole realm of
3:30
Speaker 1: financial insurance.
3:32
Speaker 2: Nothing exciting type, nothing exciting.
3:33
Speaker 1: Now that's a second being an accountant. It's not a
3:37
Speaker 1: very sexy job, but that's what he does.
3:39
Speaker 2: No, but it's a respectable job.
3:40
Speaker 1: It's a respectable job. Not a sexy job, but a
3:42
Speaker 1: respectable job. The couple move into a condominium and they
3:46
Speaker 1: begin married life together. Now we get to around early
3:50
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety. Where were you in nineteen ninety? I
3:52
Speaker 1: was a freshman in high school nine.
3:54
Speaker 2: I was right here in Lagunaagel, California, in nineteen nine.
3:56
Speaker 1: I know, but you were you would have been a sophomore.
3:59
Speaker 2: Ye, ny, I started my sophomore year right, So, Pamela,
4:03
Speaker 2: is it blueless kid? And no idea what I was doing?
4:06
Speaker 1: Yeah? Did you have a media coordinator in your high school?
4:09
Speaker 2: No? I might. I might have done better had I
4:12
Speaker 2: met with one.
4:13
Speaker 1: Pamela meets Billy Flynn, who is a fifteen year old
4:17
Speaker 1: student while he's producing a school commercial through her program.
4:22
Speaker 1: The way I understood it was she was like a
4:24
Speaker 1: media coordinator for this high school, not a teacher.
4:26
Speaker 2: And it isn't even coordinator nineteen ninety.
4:29
Speaker 1: I don't know what that even really means. But also
4:31
Speaker 1: I believe she was some type of mentor and she
4:34
Speaker 1: had a group of students and it was called self
4:37
Speaker 1: esteem or something like that. So I believe they probably
4:40
Speaker 1: had teachers and you know, staffed.
4:43
Speaker 2: Y'all build your self esteem, take off your pants, right, that.
4:47
Speaker 1: Were paired up with students and then I guess they
4:50
Speaker 1: were supposed to do things that built confidence and self esteem.
4:53
Speaker 2: They probably should have.
4:55
Speaker 1: Probably should have defined that better to her. I don't.
4:58
Speaker 1: She clearly took that a little too.
5:00
Speaker 2: She had too much discretion in building the children's confidence.
5:03
Speaker 1: It's actually interesting because how they met or or got
5:06
Speaker 1: close or this affair finally, you know, comes to fruition,
5:10
Speaker 1: is because they were filming an orange juice commercial. I
5:14
Speaker 1: guess there was some orange juice brand that is.
5:17
Speaker 2: The campus or something.
5:19
Speaker 1: There was like an Orange juice brand that reached out
5:21
Speaker 1: to all the high schools and said, you know, why
5:24
Speaker 1: don't you produce a video for our juice. It's like
5:27
Speaker 1: a contest. It was a contest, okay, So it came
5:30
Speaker 1: across her desk as like a contest, a project for
5:33
Speaker 1: the school. It was the project. So she and the
5:35
Speaker 1: students that she mentored made this orange juice commercial. And
5:39
Speaker 1: I watched this documentary and they had all the footage
5:42
Speaker 1: from her and the students, you know, making this kind
5:45
Speaker 1: of corny orange juice commercial, which was interesting.
5:49
Speaker 2: That explains the media coordinator.
5:50
Speaker 1: Yes, he else would lead the project else exactly. So
5:54
Speaker 1: then we get to February of nineteen ninety and Pamela
5:57
Speaker 1: initiates a sexual relationship with Billy Flynn and she reportedly
6:01
Speaker 1: told him, do you think about me? Because I think
6:04
Speaker 1: about you all the time. No one ever said that
6:08
Speaker 1: to me, No, no, not Uh. Pamela gave him photos
6:13
Speaker 1: of herself and lingerie and they were having sex regularly.
6:18
Speaker 2: Do you realize what it took for her to do that, Well,
6:21
Speaker 2: she had to. It's not a selfie like she had
6:23
Speaker 2: to get lauingerie, then get like an old fashioned camera
6:27
Speaker 2: and then go develop it and print it and then
6:30
Speaker 2: give it to him say here you go.
6:32
Speaker 1: I believe she gave him the role of film to
6:34
Speaker 1: develop and they told him to keep whatever he wanted. Oh, yes,
6:41
Speaker 1: that's kind of thought like that like that.
6:45
Speaker 2: Now, no one develops footage anymore. Footage, Yeah, like you
6:50
Speaker 2: developed the footage, the photos, the photos, photographs, footage.
6:56
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn was completely infatuated, and he later described himself
7:00
Speaker 1: as completely under her influence.
7:03
Speaker 2: So prior to him developing the footage, he the only
7:08
Speaker 2: thing that took place that we know of is her saying,
7:10
Speaker 2: do you think about me? Well, that's all anyone right,
7:13
Speaker 2: so far, that's all. That's all that took place that
7:16
Speaker 2: we know of.
7:16
Speaker 1: That we know of.
7:17
Speaker 2: Yes, so that she says, can you go develop this
7:20
Speaker 2: for me? And he goes, and then it's like, of
7:22
Speaker 2: course he looks at the pictures.
7:24
Speaker 1: Well, she says, developed this film and you can keep
7:26
Speaker 1: whatever you want.
7:27
Speaker 2: And what did he get? Doubles and keep them all?
7:30
Speaker 2: I don't know what he kept.
7:31
Speaker 1: I don't know. But there was a friend of hers
7:33
Speaker 1: as the one that took the photos. I believe it
7:35
Speaker 1: was in a bathing suit. Maybe it was lingerie, I
7:36
Speaker 1: don't know, a bikini or something. But those photos. The
7:39
Speaker 1: media got ahold of those photos because those photos end
7:42
Speaker 1: up splashed all over the front of the papers. You know,
7:46
Speaker 1: of her and a bikini.
7:47
Speaker 2: You couldn't do that today and be like, I'm gonna
7:49
Speaker 2: text you a bunch of pictures and you keep.
7:51
Speaker 1: What you want. You're right?
7:52
Speaker 2: What work? No, that reminds me of a sein Fild episode.
7:56
Speaker 1: Though, yeah, so are you everything in my George?
8:00
Speaker 2: Cassandra goes and develops film, right, and then when he
8:03
Speaker 2: goes and picks it up, it's kind of racy? Is it?
8:06
Speaker 2: Racy images? Is that what was called? It was kind
8:08
Speaker 2: of edgy of.
8:09
Speaker 1: Sexy sexy images?
8:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, of the person that worked at the store.
8:15
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
8:16
Speaker 2: And so he's thinking, oh, she slipped some of her
8:19
Speaker 2: photos for him. Yeah. So then Seinfeld tells him no, no, no,
8:24
Speaker 2: actually Kramer says it. Kramer says, no, no, no, what are
8:26
Speaker 2: you gonna You're just gonna go ask for a number?
8:27
Speaker 2: You don't do that. He goes play the game. So
8:30
Speaker 2: then George stages him getting some sexy photos like on
8:35
Speaker 2: a chase. You've seen it, okay, And it turns out
8:38
Speaker 2: that the photos were just mixed up in the photo studio, right, yeah, exactly.
8:42
Speaker 1: Well, Pamela meant to give these photos to Billy Flynn,
8:45
Speaker 1: so she does do that on purpose. Then we get
8:48
Speaker 1: to February of April of nineteen ninety. According to Billy
8:52
Speaker 1: Flynn and prosecutors, Pamela began pushing the idea of killing Greg.
8:57
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn testified that she brought it up almost every day,
9:01
Speaker 1: saying things like the only alternative is to kill him,
9:05
Speaker 1: and threatening to end the relationship if he didn't go
9:07
Speaker 1: through with it. She also allegedly showed Flynn and his
9:10
Speaker 1: friends where spare keys were kept and told them Greg
9:14
Speaker 1: would be home alone on the night of the murder.
9:17
Speaker 1: Pamela's version, she claims that she had told Flynn she
9:20
Speaker 1: wanted to end the affair and repair her marriage, and
9:24
Speaker 1: that Billy Flynn and his friends acted on their own
9:27
Speaker 1: accord just out of jealousy. Now here's the thing. This
9:32
Speaker 1: case took place in nineteen ninety, and it bothers me
9:34
Speaker 1: because in order that for there to be a conspiracy
9:36
Speaker 1: for murder, I want forensic evidence, I want text messages.
9:40
Speaker 1: We don't have that back in nineteen ninety. It's basically
9:43
Speaker 1: his word against hers.
9:44
Speaker 2: Yea.
9:45
Speaker 1: His version is she's the mastermind and she's telling them
9:48
Speaker 1: to go do it.
9:49
Speaker 2: That makes it more of a story or whatever case
9:52
Speaker 2: that spreads around, because now it's a lot of discussion, right,
9:54
Speaker 2: you don't really know what happened versus if it was
9:57
Speaker 2: a little bit more of a clear cut case where
9:59
Speaker 2: there's tech messages and geo fencing and all and all
10:03
Speaker 2: this digital stuff. Then it's just more they had an affair,
10:07
Speaker 2: and then that's all people to really talk about, is
10:09
Speaker 2: like the affair and then they move on, whereas this
10:11
Speaker 2: is like the crime sits with people. Did he did she?
10:14
Speaker 1: You know?
10:14
Speaker 2: Was it okay? Who's lying? Is she manipulating? Like now
10:17
Speaker 2: you have all these right holes.
10:19
Speaker 1: Was he just a jealous fifteen year old that wanted
10:21
Speaker 1: to get rid of the husband because he thought they
10:23
Speaker 1: were going to be together, or was she the mastermind
10:26
Speaker 1: behind it that was influencing him to actually kill her husband?
10:30
Speaker 1: And there's no digital footprint of that. There's no text
10:35
Speaker 1: messages or conversation or anything, although there is some recorded
10:38
Speaker 1: conversations where we're going to get to. On May first
10:48
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety, this is when the actual murder takes place.
10:51
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn, his friend Pete Randall, and another friend, Vance Jr.
10:57
Speaker 1: Aladimer Junior break into the Smarts and Darry New Hampshire
11:01
Speaker 1: while Pamela is out, so she's not there. When Greg
11:04
Speaker 1: Smart arrives home, Billy Flynn shoots him once in the
11:08
Speaker 1: head in the hallway. Pamela returns to find his body,
11:12
Speaker 1: and she calls nine to one one. So these boys
11:15
Speaker 1: break into the house. Allegedly, she left either a spare
11:19
Speaker 1: key or a door open for them so that they
11:22
Speaker 1: could enter the home. They wait for him to come home.
11:25
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn testifies the trial that he asked God for
11:28
Speaker 1: forgiveness before he pulled the trigger. You know, I don't
11:31
Speaker 1: I don't know how that works.
11:32
Speaker 2: But yeah, Okay, do they have kids? Do we have
11:35
Speaker 2: to have kids?
11:36
Speaker 1: No, they were only married. I don't even know if
11:37
Speaker 1: they were married a year. At this point, they're very young,
11:40
Speaker 1: they're in their early early time.
11:41
Speaker 2: Wow, and she already wants to kill him. Yeah, they
11:44
Speaker 2: were leave them.
11:45
Speaker 1: Well, listen, he was a broker, and he there was insurance.
11:50
Speaker 1: They had life insurance. And I assume because normally, I
11:53
Speaker 1: would say early in a marriage, when you're in your twenties,
11:55
Speaker 1: like twenty one, twenty two, you probably don't carry life insurance, right,
12:00
Speaker 1: I would think.
12:01
Speaker 2: So that's not the first thing you think of, right.
12:03
Speaker 1: You're just starting out. You live in a condo.
12:05
Speaker 2: But if he's in the industry.
12:06
Speaker 1: But he's in the industry, so I don't know if
12:09
Speaker 1: I believe he has life insurance because he's in the industry,
12:11
Speaker 1: so it's like, you know, you should have life insurance.
12:15
Speaker 2: It's more in front of him, and it's hard for
12:16
Speaker 2: him to set it aside because now he's seeing what happens.
12:20
Speaker 1: Because I can't imagine that she manipulated him into getting
12:24
Speaker 1: life insurance and then she had this affair.
12:26
Speaker 2: I mean they weren't even married for Friday.
12:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I just assume he had life insurance because
12:31
Speaker 1: he was in that type of industry.
12:33
Speaker 2: All right.
12:34
Speaker 1: Then we get to May to July of nineteen ninety.
12:36
Speaker 1: This is when the investigation is going on. Also, by
12:39
Speaker 1: the way, after Greg Smart was found murdered and they
12:42
Speaker 1: were such a young couple. She I don't know why,
12:45
Speaker 1: but the media was very heavily on this case.
12:47
Speaker 2: And I think I think also female adults and male
12:51
Speaker 2: child is totally different. Right, What do you mean that's
12:54
Speaker 2: why I was spread around the media.
12:56
Speaker 1: Well, no, I'm talking about it was in the media
12:58
Speaker 1: prior to her being under instigation. I'm saying as soon
13:01
Speaker 1: as he was shot and murdered, she was doing media appearances.
13:06
Speaker 1: She spoke to a reporter, she was on the news,
13:09
Speaker 1: they did some story of her at her house.
13:11
Speaker 2: That was her way of like creating a story, like preemptively,
13:16
Speaker 2: like striking it all now.
13:17
Speaker 1: No, I'm just saying I don't really understand other than
13:20
Speaker 1: maybe this is a small town and they're young, and
13:22
Speaker 1: they're a good looking couple, and she worked at a
13:25
Speaker 1: high school, picked up and then she's the grieving widow.
13:28
Speaker 1: I'm saying that was the story from the beginning. They
13:29
Speaker 1: were reporting on it, and they interviewed her a couple
13:32
Speaker 1: of times, and she was playing the part of the
13:34
Speaker 1: grieving widow. There was even a scene with a reporter.
13:37
Speaker 1: He came to interview her and they were filming it,
13:40
Speaker 1: and she even took out like the wedding cake. You
13:42
Speaker 1: know how you saved the top of the wedding cake.
13:44
Speaker 1: She was like, I have that in the freezer. Should
13:45
Speaker 1: I take it out? And you know, this would have
13:47
Speaker 1: been our anniversary or something like that. So it was
13:50
Speaker 1: interesting to me that even before the story caught on
13:54
Speaker 1: globally because she was having an affair with the student,
13:57
Speaker 1: there was media coverage of it from the beginning. Okay,
14:02
Speaker 1: police initially treat Pamela as the grieving widow. The case
14:06
Speaker 1: stalls for a while and then a key break comes
14:08
Speaker 1: from Cecilia Pierce, who was a sixteen year old student
14:12
Speaker 1: in turned who worked closely with Pamela and had become
14:15
Speaker 1: her confidant. Suspicious of what she knew, Pierce contacted police.
14:20
Speaker 1: I believe they actually interviewed Cecilia Pierce in the beginning
14:24
Speaker 1: and she was very, very mum. She didn't say anything.
14:27
Speaker 1: It's not until later that she came clean. Also, there
14:29
Speaker 1: was an anonymous call that said the gun used and
14:33
Speaker 1: the shooting belongs to this guy's father. I don't remember
14:38
Speaker 1: it's one of the kids that was involved, because you know,
14:40
Speaker 1: Billy flyn'sa won that pulled the trigger. But there were
14:42
Speaker 1: also three other boys that were involved that were there. Yeah,
14:45
Speaker 1: and then one drove the get away car and the
14:47
Speaker 1: other two were there. Why did you why.
14:50
Speaker 2: He got three friends to help them?
14:53
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think they were each promised some money
14:56
Speaker 1: or something from the other. I mean I think they
14:58
Speaker 1: claimed that later that that was.
15:00
Speaker 2: And they could have done it because of their friend's love
15:02
Speaker 2: for her, I know.
15:04
Speaker 1: But anyway, the reason that they ended up solving this
15:10
Speaker 1: case where I don't even know if it's really solved
15:12
Speaker 1: at this point, because it's still he said, she said situation,
15:15
Speaker 1: But it was someone made an anonymous call and gave
15:18
Speaker 1: a tip that the gun used was the father's gun
15:21
Speaker 1: of one of these kids. And then they end up
15:23
Speaker 1: bringing the dad in and asking him and is this
15:26
Speaker 1: your gun?
15:26
Speaker 2: They match the guy, so then.
15:29
Speaker 1: Now they have the kids involved, and now they're questioning
15:32
Speaker 1: the kids. And then Cecilia Pears then later comes forward
15:36
Speaker 1: and wants to talk to police, and so now it's
15:39
Speaker 1: all coming together. July of nineteen ninety, Cecilia Pierce agrees
15:44
Speaker 1: to wear a wire. This is where I was talking about.
15:47
Speaker 2: This is now there and wearing a wire. Probably had
15:52
Speaker 2: like a big old it was they backpack with equipment. Anna.
15:58
Speaker 2: It's like, this is the.
16:00
Speaker 1: Problem with this recording. It's nineteen ninety. It is bulky
16:04
Speaker 1: because she said, because she even claims in an interview
16:07
Speaker 1: that she said when she went to you know, meet
16:09
Speaker 1: the Pamela is smart to have this conversation. Pamela went
16:13
Speaker 1: to hug her and then she was like trying to
16:16
Speaker 1: you know, because she's got this bulky pack on her
16:19
Speaker 1: back of you know this.
16:20
Speaker 2: Now like, oh, this is my phone, right, okay, So.
16:23
Speaker 1: She agrees to wear a wire, and over several recorded conversations,
16:27
Speaker 1: Pamela makes incriminating statements, discussing the murder, praising flends, loyalty,
16:33
Speaker 1: and worrying about loose ends. These tapes become the centerpiece
16:37
Speaker 1: of the prosecution's case. You know, these tapes really, honestly
16:41
Speaker 1: are the only reason I believe that's really the only
16:44
Speaker 1: evidence that they have, because otherwise only exactly because otherwise
16:49
Speaker 1: it's Pamela. It's it's two people in love, and you know,
16:53
Speaker 1: the boys are saying she's the mastermind and she talked
16:56
Speaker 1: us into it, and she's saying, he's jealous because I
16:59
Speaker 1: wanted to stay with her and I didn't want to
17:00
Speaker 1: have sex with him anymore. And I was just this
17:03
Speaker 1: scorned fifteen year old that you know, committed murder because
17:06
Speaker 1: he was mad. And that's it. And again, this is
17:09
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, so there's no text messages or any type
17:12
Speaker 1: of digital anything to corroborate either one of those stories. Yeah,
17:17
Speaker 1: so the only thing that they have in court that
17:19
Speaker 1: the prosecution has are these recorded conversations between.
17:24
Speaker 2: Since what is significant on the recordings.
17:26
Speaker 1: Well, they played some of them. First of all, it's
17:29
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety and the equipment's bulky, and they they're not
17:32
Speaker 1: great recordings.
17:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
17:34
Speaker 1: So an issue I know that Pamela Smart and her
17:36
Speaker 1: team had with these recordings was that then someone in
17:39
Speaker 1: the DA's office they don't know who transcribed them, and
17:43
Speaker 1: they argue that they weren't transcribed accurately because basically it's
17:47
Speaker 1: someone right with probably a wall commanded.
17:49
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like chain of custody. It's like evidence is
17:51
Speaker 2: moving from hand to hand to hand. Then I kind
17:53
Speaker 2: of think, well, where did to get lost or you know,
17:56
Speaker 2: did some of the evidence get deteriorated? So in this case,
17:58
Speaker 2: it's transcribing it. It has to be done inaccurately, right.
18:01
Speaker 1: So basically I believe these recordings go in and out
18:05
Speaker 1: and it's staticky. Sometimes you can hear, sometimes you can't.
18:08
Speaker 1: I listened to someone I was watching the documentary. You
18:11
Speaker 1: could hear things. There was something that was very clear
18:13
Speaker 1: that was very damaging. She made a statement saying something
18:16
Speaker 1: like to the effect of, you can't say anything because
18:19
Speaker 1: then we'll all go to prison for life. I mean,
18:22
Speaker 1: she says something like that.
18:23
Speaker 2: But that's not enough to say that. That's not that's
18:26
Speaker 2: evidence of I don't want to go to jail. Well,
18:28
Speaker 2: no one wants to go to jail.
18:29
Speaker 1: I think she said something to the effect of, you
18:31
Speaker 1: need to be quiet and not say anything, or else
18:33
Speaker 1: you're going to go to jail, and Billy's going to
18:34
Speaker 1: go to jail and I'm going.
18:35
Speaker 2: To instruction of justice.
18:38
Speaker 1: Well, it's not good. It's not her saying I didn't
18:41
Speaker 1: have anything to do with it. It's her saying we got
18:44
Speaker 1: it and put we have to stop talking because we're
18:47
Speaker 1: all going to go to prison. Right. Also, again back
18:51
Speaker 1: to the transcribing, her team, the defense team argues that
18:55
Speaker 1: it wasn't transcribed correctly, and then I do know during
18:59
Speaker 1: the try the judge told the jury that they could
19:02
Speaker 1: not use the transcripts as evidence. They had to use
19:07
Speaker 1: the actual audio. But then I believe that they did
19:12
Speaker 1: have access to the transcribed conversation, which I think the
19:18
Speaker 1: way the defense talks is that whoever transcribed it kind
19:21
Speaker 1: of added where they wanted to, maybe where there was
19:23
Speaker 1: like static or or something. They're like, oh, I'll just
19:25
Speaker 1: fill in with what I say, sense, I'll just put
19:28
Speaker 1: this in here. On August versu of nineteen ninety, Pamela
19:32
Speaker 1: Smart is arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit first
19:35
Speaker 1: degree murder accomplice to first degree murder and witness tampering.
19:40
Speaker 1: In January twenty eighth of nineteen ninety one, the co conspirators,
19:44
Speaker 1: which is all the boys, they take a plea deal.
19:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, naturally, right.
19:49
Speaker 1: So Billy Flynn is seventeen, Randal is seventeen, Ladimi is eighteen,
19:54
Speaker 1: and they all plead guilty to second degree murder in
19:57
Speaker 1: exchange for reduced sentences and a ring to testify against Pamela.
20:02
Speaker 2: Okay, if my memory, they served time, significant time. I
20:05
Speaker 2: think each right did.
20:06
Speaker 1: Okay, but they're they're all out of prison now.
20:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I remember when they were being released.
20:12
Speaker 2: I don't remember when it was, but I remember seeing
20:13
Speaker 2: it on the news and making that connection, like, oh, yeah,
20:16
Speaker 2: that was that movie I watched.
20:17
Speaker 1: So the trial begins at Rockingham County Superior Court in Exeter,
20:21
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. It becomes a sensation almost immediately and it
20:25
Speaker 1: is the first gabble to gabble televised a murder trial
20:28
Speaker 1: in US history, broadcast on Court TV. Court TV launched
20:32
Speaker 1: that same year. Thank you. They should think Pamela Smart.
20:35
Speaker 2: The media coordinator she was the media had her case
20:38
Speaker 2: on TV.
20:39
Speaker 1: Did media from around the world flooded the town. The
20:44
Speaker 1: key evidence that was presented during the trial was the
20:47
Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce wire recordings. Let me here's Pamela Smart. Because
20:53
Speaker 1: the documentary that I just recently watched on Pamela Smart,
20:55
Speaker 1: I think it's from a few years back. It's not
20:58
Speaker 1: from twenty twenty six, but maybe, like I don't know,
21:01
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Anyway, she's in prison and they
21:04
Speaker 1: interview her also on this stand her. This reminded me
21:09
Speaker 1: of the Corey Richins case, the woman from Utah that
21:12
Speaker 1: poisoned her husband. I'll tell you why. She explains what
21:16
Speaker 1: she's saying on the tapes as she explains it that
21:21
Speaker 1: she was trying to manipulate Cecilia Pierce into giving her
21:24
Speaker 1: more information. So she was pretending to talk about the
21:30
Speaker 1: case in a way that makes her look bad, but
21:34
Speaker 1: it wasn't really true. She was only saying that because
21:37
Speaker 1: she wanted to get information from Cecilia. So that's why
21:40
Speaker 1: she was saying what she was saying on those tapes.
21:43
Speaker 2: I only said it because I was being manipulative.
21:45
Speaker 1: Right, I was only saying that because I wanted to
21:47
Speaker 1: get something from her. So I said it reminded me
21:50
Speaker 1: of Corey Richinds because I don't know, if you remember
21:51
Speaker 1: this was part of it was when she was in
21:54
Speaker 1: jail and she wrote the Walk the Dog letter that
21:56
Speaker 1: they found in her jail cell, and it was instructions
21:59
Speaker 1: telling her family to like say that her husband went
22:02
Speaker 1: to Mexico and bought drugs and to make sure that
22:05
Speaker 1: you say this. And then remember when she got caught
22:07
Speaker 1: with a letter, she said it wasn't really about her
22:10
Speaker 1: case or she wasn't really giving directions to her family
22:13
Speaker 1: as to how to answer police questions. It was she
22:16
Speaker 1: was going to write a fiction book and so she
22:19
Speaker 1: was it was like made up, But it just reminded
22:22
Speaker 1: me of that where it's like a retroactive type of
22:26
Speaker 1: you know, you have to do like a one to
22:27
Speaker 1: eighty and have to come up with like a correct
22:29
Speaker 1: response as to why you're saying damaging things against yourself.
22:33
Speaker 1: And then you're like, I wasn't really talking about that,
22:36
Speaker 1: I was writing a fiction book. The Cecilia Pierce why
22:39
Speaker 1: Are recordings were presented as evidence and testimony from Billy
22:43
Speaker 1: Flynn and Randall describing Pamela's seduction and manipulation, and testimony
22:49
Speaker 1: about her alleged coaching of witnesses. Pamela testified on her own.
22:54
Speaker 2: Behalf, Oh and what did she have to say?
22:57
Speaker 1: She admits to the affair, but denies any role in
23:00
Speaker 1: plotting the murder, and she insists that Billy Flynn acted
23:03
Speaker 1: alone and out of you know, some type of you know, infatuation. Yeah,
23:08
Speaker 1: that's the most of her.
23:10
Speaker 2: I doubt that that could, that would That's something that
23:13
Speaker 2: would rarely occur. Where fifteen, he was fifteen, a fifteen
23:17
Speaker 2: year old would on his own go kill like the husband.
23:21
Speaker 2: That seems really out of line for fifteen.
23:24
Speaker 1: Well, and to get three friends to go and to
23:26
Speaker 1: be able to I guess the door was unlocked, so
23:28
Speaker 1: they had a way in, and they knew how to
23:30
Speaker 1: get in. They knew that she would be gone, maybe
23:32
Speaker 1: at what time he would be home.
23:33
Speaker 2: Maybe if there was confrontation with the husband and Billy,
23:37
Speaker 2: like you know, with this affair and then and then
23:40
Speaker 2: later down the road, he wanted to go kill him
23:42
Speaker 2: or something because then now it's between them two. But
23:45
Speaker 2: this is like I'm sleeping with her and she doesn't
23:48
Speaker 2: like her husband, so I'm going to kill her husband.
23:50
Speaker 2: That just seems like you.
23:51
Speaker 1: Think it's too far fetched that a fifteen year old
23:53
Speaker 1: would he skipped.
23:54
Speaker 2: A lot of steps to get there on his own.
23:57
Speaker 1: You know, I did watch a lot of her testimony.
24:00
Speaker 1: She comes off very controlled, cold, aloof stoic. I don't
24:07
Speaker 1: maybe even I mean, she doesn't show a lot of emotion.
24:09
Speaker 1: I think she speaks well, but she doesn't come off warm,
24:14
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
24:15
Speaker 2: So I don't know as opposed to what other teachers
24:20
Speaker 2: that have an affairs I cale in the stands.
24:21
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just saying, if you're going to testify on
24:23
Speaker 1: your own, behalf, I think that it would.
24:25
Speaker 2: Help you recumanize yourself, right.
24:27
Speaker 1: That you need to humanize your case, yourself exactly, and
24:30
Speaker 1: show remorse and emotion and that you were in love
24:33
Speaker 1: with your husband and that you had nothing.
24:34
Speaker 2: To do right like you had an affair, but that
24:36
Speaker 2: you didn't want your husband dead right exactly.
24:38
Speaker 1: But I'm saying she comes off just very flatline like,
24:41
Speaker 1: not a lot of emotion.
24:43
Speaker 2: So, and that was the love of his life. Who
24:46
Speaker 2: Billy's Billy's the stoic woman?
24:48
Speaker 1: Well, well, let's ask him today. On March twenty second
24:59
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety one, on the jury convicts Pamela Smart
25:02
Speaker 1: on all counts. Accomplished a first degree murder, conspiracy to
25:05
Speaker 1: commit murder and witness tampering. She is sentenced to life
25:09
Speaker 1: in prison without the possibility. Oh and the mandatory sentence.
25:14
Speaker 1: And this is a mandatory sentence under New Hampshire law.
25:17
Speaker 1: Whoa life in prison?
25:20
Speaker 2: She's never getting out.
25:21
Speaker 1: She's still in prison. So the sentencing of the co conspirators.
25:27
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn received twenty eight years to life for second
25:30
Speaker 1: degree murder. He's the remember, he's the one that's the one.
25:32
Speaker 2: That and this is in nineteen ninety one.
25:34
Speaker 1: Yes, March twenty second, nineteen ninety one. This is this.
25:38
Speaker 1: They're convicted, and this is the sentencing. Pete Randall received
25:42
Speaker 1: forty years to life with twelve years of minimum deferred.
25:47
Speaker 1: But I believe he got forty years to life because
25:49
Speaker 1: he'd had prior issue criminal activity. Vance Vladimi Junior got
25:56
Speaker 1: eighteen years to life, and Ralph Welch, which is the
25:59
Speaker 1: one that drove the game away car, received a lesser
26:01
Speaker 1: sentence for just being involved with to get away.
26:05
Speaker 2: The driver was driver does work here.
26:08
Speaker 1: The case was a landmark and crime media critics later
26:12
Speaker 1: argued that it created a carnival atmosphere that made a
26:14
Speaker 1: fair trial nearly impossible. You know, it was the media coverage,
26:20
Speaker 1: but also I mean it showed a lot of the
26:23
Speaker 1: tabloids and she was all over the covers of them.
26:26
Speaker 1: I don't know how she could have received a fair trial.
26:29
Speaker 1: I mean, they convicted her before she even.
26:31
Speaker 2: Well if this is also the first crime or criminal
26:34
Speaker 2: proceedings that was aired on TV, and it's kind of
26:37
Speaker 2: you know, it's got a story. Everyone was like tuned
26:40
Speaker 2: into this one, right, yeah, more more.
26:44
Speaker 1: Than you know. And the question is, I don't know
26:46
Speaker 1: did she receive a fair trial? Can you receive a
26:48
Speaker 1: fair trial?
26:48
Speaker 2: And doesn't matter she didn't kill someone, but she didn't
26:52
Speaker 2: well you don't have to pull the trigger. If you
26:58
Speaker 2: believe that she caused like she's she was the mastermind, yeah,
27:03
Speaker 2: behind this, then it doesn't matter she didn't trigger.
27:07
Speaker 1: The case resulted in In nineteen ninety one, this is
27:10
Speaker 1: the TV movie It was called Murder in New Hampshire
27:13
Speaker 1: and that was the Pamela Smart story starring Helen Hunt
27:16
Speaker 1: as Pamela. So that's what you were referring to. In
27:19
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, author Joyce Maynard published the novel To
27:23
Speaker 1: Die For, a satirical dark comedy clearly inspired comedy. Yeah,
27:28
Speaker 1: clearly inspired by the case. I think that's Nicole Kidman.
27:33
Speaker 1: I think she played that. Oh then oh, she wrote
27:35
Speaker 1: the book. Then in nineteen ninety five it was adapted
27:38
Speaker 1: into a film. His Divelay character starring Nicole Kidman as
27:42
Speaker 1: Pamela Smart and Juaquin Phoenix was the teenage lover Brian
27:46
Speaker 1: or Billy Flynn.
27:47
Speaker 2: No kidding, Yeah, defie Joe himself.
27:49
Speaker 1: Have you seen that movie?
27:50
Speaker 2: No, I've seen it.
27:52
Speaker 1: It becomes a critical hit and cultural touchstone. So Pamela
27:56
Speaker 1: is currently housed at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in
27:59
Speaker 1: New New York. She was transferred from New Hampshire due
28:04
Speaker 1: to being the only woman in the state with a
28:06
Speaker 1: no parole sentence, the only one in New Hampshire. Over
28:10
Speaker 1: the decades, she has earned multiple college degrees while incarcerated,
28:13
Speaker 1: and she became an advocate for prison education programs. She
28:17
Speaker 1: has filed numerous appeals, all denied on grounds including an
28:21
Speaker 1: effective assistance of counsel, prosecutorial misconduct, and the argument that
28:26
Speaker 1: the massive pre trial media coverage made a fair trial
28:30
Speaker 1: impossible for her. However, they've all been denied because she
28:34
Speaker 1: is still currently in prison in two thousand and five,
28:39
Speaker 1: Vance Jr. Aladimi Junior was paroled and then in twenty fifteen,
28:43
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn and Pete Randall are paroled after only spending
28:48
Speaker 1: roughly twenty five years in prison.
28:51
Speaker 2: So he went to jail for twenty five years and
28:53
Speaker 2: came out in twenty fifteen. Yeah, and does he visit her?
28:57
Speaker 1: I doubt it, but I don't know. I don't I
28:59
Speaker 1: didn't really look in to what Billy Flenn is doing.
29:01
Speaker 1: Now he's been out since twenty fifteen. That would be interesting.
29:03
Speaker 2: You said twenty five years he was in jail. Yeah,
29:06
Speaker 2: so he and hey, was how old about seventeen when
29:09
Speaker 2: he went in? Yeah? Give her take eighteen. Yeah, he
29:12
Speaker 2: was a young kid, right, So well.
29:14
Speaker 1: He's sent his forties. Yeah, and he still has a
29:16
Speaker 1: full life though, absolutely, I mean that's the question. Though.
29:19
Speaker 1: She didn't pull a trigger, and she's in life for prison,
29:22
Speaker 1: in prison for life.
29:23
Speaker 2: He was the adult, she was the professional, She was
29:25
Speaker 2: the one in power. She had control over him, and
29:28
Speaker 2: she did exercise control over him to create this to happen.
29:32
Speaker 2: He is not. He didn't. He did do it. I'm
29:35
Speaker 2: not going to make lie of that at all. He
29:36
Speaker 2: did do it. He could have not done it, but
29:39
Speaker 2: he did and it was because of her.
29:42
Speaker 1: All right, this is very interesting.
29:44
Speaker 2: Oh, let me guess in prison, she is the media coordinator.
29:49
Speaker 1: No, but I don't know. Maybe, but that would be interesting.
29:52
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty four, well, she's maintained her innocence the
29:55
Speaker 1: whole time. Up until twenty twenty four, Pamela released a
29:59
Speaker 1: video statement accepting full responsibility for Greg's death for the
30:04
Speaker 1: first time. It's a dramatic shift from decades of a
30:08
Speaker 1: maintained innocence.
30:10
Speaker 2: Wow.
30:10
Speaker 1: In the video, she says, quote, I found myself responsible
30:13
Speaker 1: for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for
30:17
Speaker 1: my husband's murder. However, Greg Smart's family said she danced
30:22
Speaker 1: around it without fully admitting the specifics of what she orchestrated.
30:28
Speaker 1: We get to January of twenty twenty six, Pamela's lawyers
30:31
Speaker 1: file a new petition to overturn her conviction, this time
30:35
Speaker 1: citing new forensic audio research. The argument is that the
30:40
Speaker 1: prosecutors gave jurors printed transcripts while they listened to the
30:45
Speaker 1: unclear why are recordings from Cecilia Pierce. New science shows
30:50
Speaker 1: that when people read a transcript while listening to ambiguous audio,
30:55
Speaker 1: they almost always hear what the transcript says, even if
30:58
Speaker 1: the words aren't there. Smart's team argues that the transcripts
31:02
Speaker 1: put words in her mouth that she never actually said.
31:06
Speaker 2: That that is, I could follow that. But the thing is, yeah, wait,
31:10
Speaker 2: is this grounds for a new trial or anything?
31:12
Speaker 1: Well, that's what her arguments is now.
31:14
Speaker 2: Well yeah, okay, but then if there's going to be
31:15
Speaker 2: a new trial, then the trial should also include her
31:19
Speaker 2: recent confession and change of story, right, I mean, she
31:22
Speaker 2: kind of admitted that she was a part of it,
31:24
Speaker 2: and that she lied the whole time for twenty some
31:26
Speaker 2: odd year, thirty years, and then now she's going to
31:29
Speaker 2: be like, wait a minute, that didn't give me a
31:31
Speaker 2: fair trial. Well, how about the fact that you didn't
31:34
Speaker 2: how about the fact that you lied in your defense?
31:36
Speaker 2: That didn't give you a fair trial?
31:37
Speaker 1: Well, I would say if she got a new trial
31:40
Speaker 1: and she admitted to it, but then there was also
31:42
Speaker 1: some Dury instructions that were in correct and they were adding.
31:46
Speaker 2: Things and give her a lesson, I think it would.
31:48
Speaker 1: Be a lesser sentence and time served. I mean, she's
31:50
Speaker 1: been in since.
31:51
Speaker 2: It took her how long to figure that one out.
31:53
Speaker 1: Well twenty twenty four is when she finally admitted any
31:57
Speaker 1: role at all may have the State of New Hampshire
32:01
Speaker 1: asked the court to dismiss Smart's latest petition, and the
32:04
Speaker 1: New Hampshire Governor, Kelly Iote had previously rejected a request
32:08
Speaker 1: for a sentence reduction hearing. As of mid twenty twenty six,
32:12
Speaker 1: that's where we are now. Pamela Smart remains incarcerated and
32:16
Speaker 1: her petition is pending. So we will see what happens
32:20
Speaker 1: with Pamela Smart. I don't see her getting out of
32:22
Speaker 1: prison anytime soon.
32:23
Speaker 2: I'll there getting out of prison at all.
32:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not, But I don't know. I don't know
32:28
Speaker 1: if I feel like the tapes, the audio was enough
32:31
Speaker 1: that she was the mastermind. I don't know if I
32:34
Speaker 1: was on.
32:34
Speaker 2: The jury, what I would wonder on these people's heads
32:36
Speaker 2: now when they're like, it didn't even last that long
32:40
Speaker 2: and she's right away taken and putting put in prison, right,
32:45
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like she went and lived a
32:46
Speaker 2: life for twenty years and then got caught and got
32:48
Speaker 2: away with something, or it's not like she it was
32:50
Speaker 2: a financial crime and she benefited from it for a while,
32:53
Speaker 2: like she like thought, I'll kill this have this person killed,
32:58
Speaker 2: and then my life will be great. And then you
32:59
Speaker 2: go straight to jail. Yeah, and in prison and you're
33:02
Speaker 2: all over and hated by the world. What does she
33:05
Speaker 2: think every day? Every day she thinking, man, I shouldn't
33:09
Speaker 2: have done that, or is it more like I almost
33:11
Speaker 2: got away with it or I should have done it
33:13
Speaker 2: like this.
33:14
Speaker 1: Well, here's another fun fact. In the documentary I watched,
33:17
Speaker 1: she's interviewed currently from prison and the journalist, the reporter
33:23
Speaker 1: who interviews her is Diane Diamond.
33:26
Speaker 2: Who I know who that is?
33:28
Speaker 1: No, but she was in the Michael Jackson verdict. She
33:31
Speaker 1: was the reporter that they interviewed that followed the verdict,
33:35
Speaker 1: and she did not like Jackson. I felt like she
33:38
Speaker 1: was totally biased agains him the entire time. I didn't
33:40
Speaker 1: like that they included her in the verdict but didn't
33:43
Speaker 1: give an alternative. It just felt like she was just
33:46
Speaker 1: out to get him the entire time. But then that
33:48
Speaker 1: was the first time I had heard of Diane Diamond
33:50
Speaker 1: because she was in that Michael Jackson the verdict. I
33:53
Speaker 1: didn't like. I didn't have a great takeaway from her.
33:56
Speaker 1: And then when I watched the Pamela Smart. There she is.
33:58
Speaker 1: She shows up in the end and she's done her.
34:00
Speaker 1: I still don't like her, but I don't like Pamela
34:02
Speaker 1: Smart either, So there you go.
34:03
Speaker 2: Well do you like Michael Jackson?
34:06
Speaker 1: I love Michael Jackson. It's innocent on all charges?
34:10
Speaker 2: Wow forever?
34:12
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, that is the case of Pamela is Smart.
34:16
Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening. Till Death Do Us Part.
34:19
Speaker 1: If you have any cases of husband's actually we still
34:22
Speaker 1: need to look up the statistics. I do believe it's
34:24
Speaker 1: more husbands kill wives than wives.
34:26
Speaker 2: Well I know, share it. Yeah, Well, we'll look up.
34:28
Speaker 1: The statistics for next time. But I'm going to go
34:30
Speaker 1: with it's definitely more husbands that kill wives.
34:33
Speaker 2: Well I'm going to go with, uh, well, it's it's
34:37
Speaker 2: not just is it more husbands they kill wives and
34:40
Speaker 2: wives they kill husbands? It's do more husbands get caught?
34:43
Speaker 1: Oh you mean, who's the smarter? It's the smarter gender.
34:47
Speaker 2: What they're about dumb for killing?
34:50
Speaker 1: All right? Thank you guys, And if you have any
34:51
Speaker 1: cases that you would recommend for Till Death Do Us Part,
34:54
Speaker 1: please find me on Instagram and send me a message.
34:56
Speaker 1: I love to hear not only your feedback but your
34:59
Speaker 1: recommendation of cases and also please follow legally Brunette wherever
35:03
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, and thank you so much for listening.
35:07
Speaker 1: We appreciate you