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Did Housing Affordability Kill Climate Action? · The Missing Middle Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: We get into dangerous territory when Canadians feel that there is a trade-off between the economy and affordability on the one hand and climate action on the other.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like there's a massive mandate for a policy that would help fight climate change.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I suspect that's a lot more of a consensus than most government policies these days.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Demographics, hosted by Mike Moffat and Kara Stern.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: We just celebrated Earth Day, and maybe you took part in a city cleanup or took a nature walk, but we celebrated it here at the missing middle by what else?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at some new data on Canadians' priorities on climate change.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: But what we read is actually pretty worrying.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Only 13% of Canadians now say climate change is a top personal priority.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: In 2019, so that was just seven years ago, it was one in three.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: It topped the issues agenda heading into that election.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now, according to a new abacus data poll, it ranks eighth behind cost of living, the economy, healthcare, Trump, housing, immigration, and crime.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge drop in just seven years.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I often hear that people don't care about climate change anymore, that other issues from affordability to geopolitics have caused us to forget about the issue.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or even worse, consider the idea of fighting climate change, a so-called luxury belief that we simply can't afford.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you've been looking at some numbers that tell a bit of a different story.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's this narrative that as affordability has worsened, climate change just isn't a priority anymore.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And buying sustainable products is just a luxury households can no longer afford.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the data doesn't actually show that.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Ipsos just released its annual 32-country survey on climate opinions, and despite inflation, the engagement is still there.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the numbers saying about what Canadians actually believe?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just under half of Canadians think our country should be doing more.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And 55% agree that if individuals like them don't act, we're failing future generations.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So clearly, Canadians still do care and they haven't given up yet.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this may just be the Gen Xer in me, but like it's one thing to care in the abstract, but it's another thing to actually do something about it.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So are we seeing any changes in how people live or what they buy?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, surprisingly, yes, we still are.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Ipsos also did a study for a company called Public Inc.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: looking at consumer actions.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what they found was that people chose products more based on environmental factors more last year than the year before, both in Canada and America.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I find that really surprising, you know, given how many Canadians are just trying to get by.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know it is surprising, but what really surprised me the most was that income doesn't predict how sustainably you shop anymore.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the most committed conscious consumers are actually more price sensitive than the least committed ones.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: The core group is age 35 to 54.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: They have kids, they're university educated.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not exactly the group I would have guessed before I saw this data, though I think at some level it makes sense.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as being a parent, particularly a parent of a younger child, it does make someone think about the future of the planet more.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you mentioned that more than half of people feel a moral obligation to act.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also when you are a parent, I can't overstate how many like plastic things you get in your household.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Just so much things coming in all the time that it makes me go like, I needed something sustainable.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Just because I'm like, how much plastic do I need my kids to use for like two years before they grow out of it?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then it like it's gonna end up in a landfill.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So much plastic.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So very, very much plastic.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned that more than half of people feel a moral obligation to act, but like, how does that compare to other years?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's going down.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was about two-thirds in 2021, and it's been trending down since.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is nice comparing the data over the last two years because I did start this by looking back at the 2024 report, which highlighted how different demographics feel about climate change and how kind of like hopeful and hopeless they feel about it all.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, the younger you were, the more hopeless you felt about climate change, which I do feel kind of reflects our dynamic too here.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it does.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does that compare to uh this year's report?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's much more consistency across generations now.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So fewer people feel like it's too late to do anything.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: From most hopeful to least, it goes boomers, millennials, Gen X, and then Gen Z.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: So once again, Gen X is kind of lost here in the middle, but it's not surprising to see Gen Z and boomers have the biggest spread, you know, given how different their worlds have been.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's still a big gender gap where women feel much more optimistic than men do about climate change.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's consistent across generations.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: But on average, 21% of people agree there's no point in changing their behavior anymore because it just won't make a difference, anyways.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas half of Canadians still disagree with that.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is something I've felt a lot about in my career that there's always been this downside of climate messaging.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because on the one hand, you want people to understand the seriousness of the issue.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, that messaging, you know, using very serious language can lead people to believe that the situation is hopeless.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So why bother at all?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I kind of can see where that 21% is coming from.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I recycle, I bike instead of drive when it makes sense.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: I chose to live somewhere I don't need to drive everywhere, and I try to avoid limited use plastic despite all as much as the ones that my kids keep bringing in.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: But then you see the industrial emissions from billionaires and private jets, and you just feel like you're so tiny, like individual efforts just matter so little.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'd add to all that that there's this talking point that Canada is less than 2% of global emissions.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't matter what any Canadian does.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's always bothered me.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for example, by any metric, Canada accounted for less than 2% of the activity in World War II.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: But our contributions in that war are something we're all proud of, and rightfully so.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's another kind of messaging that I've always found problematic.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Although at least Canadians are more optimistic than the rest of the world, because only 17% of Canadians think climate change is totally beyond our control compared to a global average of 25%.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't get over how different India was compared to most of the other countries that they surveyed.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: In India, that numbers almost two-thirds of people who think it's totally beyond our control.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they're almost twice as pessimistic as the next most pessimistic country, which was Thailand.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm gonna summarize, you know, what's going on in Canada, we we have a public that feels fairly hopeful and they're still shopping their values despite affordability issues, but they're starting to feel like their individual efforts are too small to matter.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So who do we blame for this?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you ask many Canadians, there's a problem at the top.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Less than a third of Canadians think our country's a world leader in this fight.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's not surprising given we just had an election where both major parties promised to cut carbon taxes and where we're seeing targets on things like EVs degraded, although I don't know whether it was ever realistic to have no more gas cars sold by 2035.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: But half Canadians want the government to do more, and only less than a quarter of people don't want them to do more.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry for all the numbers here.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's a lot, but only less than a quarter of Canadians think their government has a clear plan.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it seems like there's a massive mandate for a policy that would help fight climate change.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I suspect that's a lot more of a consensus than most government policies these days.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, though I've got to say again, Gen Xer and me, I'm still somewhat skeptical.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think often when I hear people say governments should do something, I think what's typically actually being said is government should do something so long as the costs are borne by other people and not by me and my family.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Though, you know, that said, you pointed out that we do know that many Canadians are paying more for sustainable products.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there's at least a cohort of folks who are okay taking a financial hit if it means doing the right thing.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose they they need to trust that their actions are making a difference.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they want that kind of detailed data, reporting, independent journalism before they're willing to buy in.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: They want the receipts, and I don't think that they're seeing it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's one more survey I wanted to bring up that I found a little more optimistic, and this is from Abacus Data, where it talked about how nature and the economy can work together.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: It found massive support for the government, encouraging businesses to, and I quote, encourage nature-based practices to improve resilience and stability.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's things like reforestation, wetland restoration, sustainable farming.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's like you said, people don't see that as like having a direct effect on them.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's why they're they're okay with it.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: But at least we can say that most Canadians don't seem to see the economy and the environment as being opposites all the time, which is great because climate change is not the top issue anymore, sadly.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think it's great that so many Canadians don't see that there's necessarily a trade-off between the economy and the environment.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really do think when push comes to shove, if the majority of Canadians feel that they have to choose between affordability and climate action, they're gonna choose affordability.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually, in my view, what killed the consumer carbon tax.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know supporters of carbon pricing will point to misinformation and what have you.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think people understood the whole point of the carbon pricing exercise was to make activities that cause emissions more expensive.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, once we had affordability getting worse after COVID, they basically said, you know, we can't afford this anymore.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what kind of killed carbon pricing.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think we get into dangerous territory when Canadians feel that there is a trade-off between the economy and affordability on the one hand and climate action on the other.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's true, although the Ipsos data found that people do still make climate-friendly choices, even if they cost more.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Although I thought it was interesting that they had some information about like they prefer products that emphasize immediate benefits rather than ones that are like far away in the future.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely think sacrificing now for longer-term gain was like a core part of it, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's why I think it's so harmful when we get narratives that the choice has to be between affordability and climate action.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in my view, government should be focusing on policies that simultaneously address climate change and affordability.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, uh a couple of years ago, we wrote a report for More and Better Housing Canada.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll link to it in the show notes.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it's on how smart housing policies can simultaneously lower monthly bills and address climate change so we don't have to choose between the two.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, how does that work?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's really four big ways to do this.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the first is that we can make home ownership and rent more affordable by cutting building costs by allowing for more modern, low-carbon methods of construction.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes, we can't use those in the building code.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to change that.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Second, we can keep property taxes and transportation costs in check by allowing more homes to be built closer to jobs and amenity.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have to build less infrastructure that way, and you don't have to drive as much if you live closer to where you work and shop.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Third is that we can lower insurance and maintenance costs by building sturdier homes in safer areas and avoid building on floodplains.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the most expensive home is the one you have to build twice, so let's not do that.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, we can reduce utility bills with energy efficient homes and retrofits.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I do love when you can blend good for the environment and good financially.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's pretty nice when that happens.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: It means people might actually get on board with it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for watching and listening.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Our producer is Meredith Martin and our editor is Sean Foreman.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any thoughts or questions about building a home on a floodplain, please send us an email to missing middle podcast at gmail.com.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you next time.