Latest / Rise and Thrive with Dr. J. Nicole Podcast / Silent Scars: Corporal Punishment, Masculinity & Healing in Black Communities with Dr. Kahlil Green

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Silent Scars: Corporal Punishment, Masculinity & Healing in Black Communities with Dr. Kahlil Green · Rise and Thrive with Dr. J. Nicole Podcast

• 0:16
  Good morning, good morning and welcome to Rise and Thrive with
• 0:19
  Doctor J Nicole, where we are rising in faith and thriving in
• 0:24
  purpose. And today I have a very special
• 0:27
  guest here. I have the newly minted Dr.
• 0:31
  Khalil Green, LMSW. He is a professor of social work
• 0:36
  at the University of the District of Columbia and a
• 0:39
  licensed therapist specializing in black youth and men in the DC
• 0:44
  area. He recently defended his
• 0:47
  dissertation at the Morgan State University where his research
• 0:51
  focused on the long term impact of corporal punishment on
• 0:56
  African American men. Deeply committed to faith and
• 0:59
  community, Doctor Green is an executive producer for the Saved
• 1:03
  Ish podcast through New Bethel Baptist Church.
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  His work blends clinical expertise, cultural awareness,
• 1:11
  and spiritual connection to uplift and empower.
• 1:16
  Let's welcome him to the show today.
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  Thank you for having me. You know, my bio sounds really
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  good coming from from from you you.
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  Know a little enthusiasm, but hey, that's your facts, Is
• 1:28
  facts, right? Yeah, that's our facts.
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  Well, you got to get used to that, doc.
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  Yeah, it is definitely a transition.
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  So today is actually very special because we are going to
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  be talking about your research. Yes.
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  Yes. So today's episode is titled
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  Silence Scars the Emotional Toll of Tough Love.
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  And so I'm just going to like, you know, give the people a
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  little overview, right, Because we're not going to get too
• 1:59
  scholarly, But I think this is a topic we've all experienced.
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  Yeah. And it's, you know, it's
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  organic. So I love that you have a you
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  chose a topic that like matters and that a lot of people
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  experience. So corporal punishment has long
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  been a controversial topic in parenting, especially within the
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  African American community. Many were raised with the belief
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  that a whooping 'cause I know I got somewhere, I had to go
• 2:24
  outside and pick a switch, right?
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  That these things build character and keep children in
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  line. Now, the Bible does say, you
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  know, spirit arise spoiled a child, but what if those
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  practices have deeper, long lasting effects on mental
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  health, relationships and even the way that individuals move
• 2:44
  throughout society? So in this episode, Doctor Green
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  is going to help us to really unpack the findings of his
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  groundbreaking dissertation research that explored this
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  specific topic, the social, emotional and psychological
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  outcomes for African American men specifically.
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  So we're going to look at the intersection of discipline,
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  trauma, masculinity, systemic racism, and attachment.
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  I said we wouldn't go get scholarly, but it's kind of hard
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  not to write. But I know we can talk about it
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  in a way that is going to be digestible and just real.
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  Yes, that's that's my goal. Before we dig into the the
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  substance of the topic, I want to say that the purpose of my
• 3:27
  research was to make it very much so accessible to our
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  people. Yes, good.
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  Otherwise, what are you doing it for?
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  Right. Right, that that was my purpose.
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  And particularly to highlight how the way we are going about
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  raising our children, particularly our sons, is
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  impacting how they're able to show up as human beings as they
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  emerge into their adult adulthood as well as their
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  adolescence. Yeah, but but that trickles over
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  into fatherhood, into marriage and relationships.
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  And so not only are we pointing out like the intersections, but
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  also how we can break some generational cycles and preserve
• 4:07
  dignity and like people have loving experiences and like
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  relationships and also cultural understanding.
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  So let's get into it. What inspired this work?
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  How did you land on this topic? Right.
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  Because for those of you who don't are unfamiliar with like
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  pH, DS, Ed, DS Doctor, it's right.
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  Like we choose our research topics.
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  So best topics, I say, are ones that we're like related to, care
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  about or have an interest in. But how did you land on this
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  topic? Like what really inspired your
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  work? Well, you know, I'm so glad you
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  asked Doctor Nicole. This started really from
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  childhood. And not to say, and I tell
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  people all the time not to say that I was whooped in the in the
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  in the severe arena wasn't nowhere near severe in
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  comparison to some of my my classmates or friends, some of
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  their stories, but I did have a share.
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  And what I noticed was, I mean, it's funny because when I get to
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  tell, when I begin to tell you this part of the story, it's
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  going to put a part of the community that I come from on
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  blast. But it's the truth.
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  Let's say I've been telling my family business on a little bit
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  on every episode. Yeah, yeah.
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  So what happened? What what happened was I started
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  to notice as a younger man. And when I say younger man, I
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  mean like elementary age, Yeah. And I started to notice that
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  like there was so much there was to me what felt like a weird
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  obsession or pride. All right, adult black people
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  and them disciplining their kids in that, in that manner, it
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  seems it seemed gross to me. I'm going to be honest with you,
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  I was like this some this, there's something quite not
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  right about this. And I experienced it primarily
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  in the church that I grew up in. OK.
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  I grew up in a Baptist Church. OK.
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  To give you context of this church, this church was founded
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  by a lot of the original enslaved Africans in that
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  particular area. Which is this in the area I'm
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  talking about? Those who are wondering like
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  where is he from? I'm originally from Dallas, TX,
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  specifically Arlington, TX and the church that I grew up in.
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  That and all the years I've known you through Howard.
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  Yeah, I'm from, yeah, I'm from Texas.
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  And I'm particularly, the church that I grew up in was a city
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  that was right next to Arlington called Mansfield.
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  And on the West side of of Mansfield was where simply the
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  black folks lived. And that church, which is
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  Bethlehem Baptist Church and still exists today, was
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  established. And so I got a chance to see
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  that behavior a lot. And then it was like little
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  things, for example, going to the store and seeing how other
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  parents would discipline their kids and like, and I was always
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  a very uncomfortable feeling. And it always felt, it kind of
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  felt like it appeared to me is that it was a combination of
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  parent. Like for example, my mom would
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  want me to be out of the way of that, but it seemed like you
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  did. There was a threat of reprimand
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  mending for you and you aren't even really involved.
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  You know what I'm saying? And I just always sounds wrong
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  about this and not being in a position to articulate it.
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  Label it. Label it there.
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  There wasn't, there wasn't a language, right.
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  And and granted, in some context, corporal punishment was
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  talked about in my in my, in my family.
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  And it wasn't the first, it wasn't the 1st result resort.
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  Either. But I still thought something
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  was wrong with it. It's funny because even I can
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  even remember when my parents transitioned into really using
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  that with me like I was. I was given a four.
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  I was giving a warning around it like that.
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  The punishment was getting ready to become.
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  Harsher Was it an age thing or behavioral thing?
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  Yeah, I think it may have been a combination of both, but I can,
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  I can remember, I can. So the root of it comes from
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  looking at our community and seeing like, I don't know if
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  this feels normal. And I, I found that others other
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  found that other cultures participated in the, in that
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  practice, but it wasn't, it just didn't seem like in the same
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  context. And I, and I, I noticed it, I
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  knew that as I got older, it was one of the fears that I had as
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  a, as a old, as a, as emerging young younger man as I, you
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  know, having a family. I was like, I don't, I don't
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  want to, I don't want to practice this with my kids, but
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  feeling like this was the only way to have been conditioned,
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  being conditioned that this is the only way that you can raise
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  your child correctly. And then also like from a
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  biblical standpoint, how the Bible, how that verse is
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  misused? OK, come on.
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  You know, a rod is not meant to beat, it's meant to guide and
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  correct. And that gives you like black
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  folks use that terribly out of context.
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  Yeah, and I hear the social worker and you at the same time.
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  Yeah, that was a strength based perspective.
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  That was a lovely perspective shift.
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  And I never thought about it. But other times where you hear
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  the ride, Moses used that to like that was what he was using
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  walking, guiding the children of Israel to park the Red Sea, get
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  the water from the like I think that he used that friend of with
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  the water on the rock too. But you're so right.
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  Thank you for reframing that and bringing that into perspective.
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  Like the the rod is not just, it's not that.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  Yeah, so I mean, I that's the, the deeper, deeper origin
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  stories of that topic. But how it resurfaced was really
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  in as I'm as I am walking into being officially a doctor, I am
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  starting to become more cavalier about telling my story.
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  You say officially walking. You are walking in doctors.
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  Yes, yes. Doctor Hood, I don't know what
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  to call it, but you in it. Welcome to the club.
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  Right, so the the story was, you know, this wasn't my first go
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  around into a doctorate program. So I was in the doctorate
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  program at at Howard as well initially and it was counseling
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  psych and attempted to figure out what was topic.
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  And similar, similar advice was given as like, hey, it needs to
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  be a topic that you know, you can be comfortable with
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  wrestling with for many years. You won't get tired of it.
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  And I was like, is that? And so originally I wanted to
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  study the long term impact of corporal punishment on African
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  Americans. OK, meaning black women.
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  Yeah, that's a lot. But you can keep this going.
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  You can get I can so much more research out of this topic.
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  Absolutely, absolutely. And so that that was that was
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  the original push. And, and what I'll say is that
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  in that space, there were certain people that didn't
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  necessarily support, they didn't support the topic.
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  That's why you had to come home to social work.
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  I was called home. Yes, you were called home.
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  Those things happened. That is the divine redirection.
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  Yeah. And it was, it was, it was
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  definitely very much so necessary.
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  The journey around it being narrowed down to African
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  American men was not really, it wasn't necessarily my choice
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  either. It was by, you know, my
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  direction of my chair. He was like, he was like, you're
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  not going to have enough time to handle, you know, both, both
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  populations. It's not, you're not going to
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  have enough time. You need to focus.
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  You know, we're trying to get you out of here, Doctor Earl.
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  This voice, who is he? That's Doctor Lorenz van
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  Fleidman. OK, I've not met him but this
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  is. You were.
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  You were on the. You were on the.
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  You were on. I couldn't.
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  I was teaching in the Pure Case Management Institute here on
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  campus at Howard. So I wasn't able to attend.
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  No, I wanted to, but like it went in, yeah, I wasn't able to
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  get on. Those who know him, when I do
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  it, they laugh. I can tell because you
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  committed. His, his, his, his his his voice
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  Is is is is nasally. So it's it's.
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  OK, so he was saying you got to narrow it down to black men
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  because that that was that could be a huge feat, right?
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  Like trying to to get you out of.
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  He's so right. And I think when we come into
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  these programs, we think this is the best paper we're going to
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  write in our lives. And our whole identity rests
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  upon it. Like the pressure is crazy.
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  And it wasn't until I was deep in my data like analysis where
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  it finally clicked. Like, Jeannie, it's a paper.
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  Just write the paper. You know how to write papers.
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  But getting past that and trying to narrow it down and wanted it
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  to be this really big thing, it's hard, yeah.
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  So I'm glad you got that good guidance.
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  So you narrowed it down to black men then?
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  The big, well, all of it was, it seemed like it was gargantuan,
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  but the biggest thing was literature review.
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  My literature review is, is substantial because I'm not just
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  looking at corporal punishment in the context of what other
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  scholars have studied about in reference to its impact.
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  I also looked at it from a historical standpoint.
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  Like I there's a there's a part of my literature view where I'm
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  talking about how corporal punishment has been used across
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  antiquity in various different countries such as China or
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  Egypt, Greece. Am I missing another place?
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  America. That was a given.
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  Speak but and I speak about the history of corporal punishment
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  in the context of like the enslavement period, particularly
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  with African Americans, but then also an African American
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  families post. I talk about it in the context
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  of social work. I talk about it in the context
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  of policy and how the definitions have varied across
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  States and how it is still primarily permissible in the
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  home as opposed to a number of states have abolished it in the
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  school. So I, I, I, I walk people
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  through an extensive understanding.
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  And then there was things that I left out, like for example, when
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  we were still crafting what the Oh, I also talked about in the
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  context of where it falls into like how it contributes to child
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  maltreatment. In those cases.
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  I talk about it in that context. I can't forget that.
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  But in, in, in the, in the development of the literature
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  review, my chair and I he, it was funny because he did he to
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  he didn't want to create more work for somebody has a tendency
• 15:13
  to overthink. But then there were certain
• 15:14
  suggestions that he would make about certain scholars like E
• 15:18
  Franklin Fraser around the narratives that he caught around
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  the migrations of African American fam families and how he
• 15:26
  was capturing those practices. Yeah.
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  He was like, you know, he he he mentioned that to me.
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  It was like there was some desire for me to have that
• 15:35
  material, but at the same time, knowing that I couldn't Philly
• 15:39
  touch on that in here. And then also he'd give me, it
• 15:42
  was funny because he'd give me push it back.
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  He's like, you know, you want to sit here and write about, you
• 15:45
  know, Egypt and Kemet. They know you're also an alpha.
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  He knows. OK, OK.
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  He knows, he knows. I mean, you know, I think, I
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  think the thing about it was, yeah, everybody's, everybody's
• 16:00
  dissertation in the topic is important to them.
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  I think because of this particular topic, I wanted to
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  make sure that I gave a thorough account as possible because what
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  I believe what I was going to experience is that there were
• 16:13
  going to be a number of people that were going to challenge the
• 16:16
  validity of like, well, I got my ass whooped.
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  That turned out all right. And that's what.
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  I needed, I needed to. And that's another thing that I
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  love. I love our people so much that
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  I'm willing to call us out for the sake of us being better.
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  And that's what this is really about.
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  Like if you're uncomfortable with this topic, good, because
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  I'm challenging. The whole purpose of this was to
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  challenge how we choose to raise each other.
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  Yeah, into into an exist into existence that is already
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  challenging our existence. So say.
• 16:53
  That one more time, that was rich.
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  I I'm challenging, I'm challenging us on how we raise
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  each other into an existence that that already challenges our
• 17:08
  existence. Yeah, yeah.
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  And so, and I needed to have a very defiant and cynical A
• 17:17
  posture because I because I knew that I was going to deal with a
• 17:22
  lot of pushback. It's the same.
• 17:26
  It's this conversation is no different when you talk to some
• 17:29
  people about like soul food. Well, but the difference is with
• 17:33
  soul food that's completely like individual where you are
• 17:36
  building this upon research, right.
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  But like people are just going to hear that.
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  And you're right, they're going to.
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  Well, I turned out fine. Yeah.
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  And then there are all these other unintended things that you
• 17:47
  think are not connected. And I know I'm sure we'll get
• 17:50
  into what some of those findings were and how this showed up and
• 17:53
  impact people and the the different areas of development
• 17:56
  in life where it's not all or nothing, which is also another
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  part I think of corporal punishment, that rigidity that
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  like tension. Distortion.
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  That cognitive distortion. Come on, let's talk.
• 18:11
  That came from somewhere, yes. And I, and, and let me say this
• 18:14
  since you brought that up in the context of femininity, with
• 18:18
  femininity, there's more wiggle room.
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  But in in the context of masculinity, you're forced in
• 18:24
  the you're kind of forced and conditioned into all or nothing
• 18:27
  thinking. Now we experience it too.
• 18:30
  Unless it's a specific thing, but yeah.
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  I know you all do. But I'm, I'm saying in the
• 18:35
  context of what it is to be a man, what it is to be to be a
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  man. I'm not saying that women don't
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  experience. It Yeah.
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  What I'm saying is that the posture that we typically are
• 18:47
  forced to maintained is that we can't be traditionally we have
• 18:52
  not been allowed to be nuanced. You know, I'm saying like it's,
• 18:59
  it's not, it's not to say what what has happened with black
• 19:02
  women. It's not by accident that black
• 19:06
  women have been have been experienced higher levels of
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  infamous. Yeah, because I was going to say
• 19:11
  around like purity and things like that.
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  That's where our Big 1 is. Exactly.
• 19:16
  So that so you all experience it.
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  It's, it's still, it's still different because of, you know
• 19:22
  what I'm saying. Yeah.
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  That is a big thing. What I would say is that we
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  ironically enforced our all enough in thinking into each
• 19:32
  other. It's a community issue.
• 19:34
  I would, I would argue that, but the, the, the, the fluidity or
• 19:38
  nuances of of 1's emotions and somebody who presents and
• 19:42
  identifies as a man that's black in this experience, it becomes
• 19:49
  really complicated because there's not room for you to
• 19:51
  experience nuance. Or express nuance.
• 19:54
  Express it to express more so correct, so you have to find
• 19:58
  other ways. To cope with that, some people,
• 20:01
  you know, use the arts as a, you know, I tell people all the
• 20:04
  time, if you wanted to have a better understanding of of the
• 20:06
  emotionality of particularly black, black men, you need to
• 20:09
  see how they show up in the show up in the in, in artistic
• 20:12
  expression. You need to see.
• 20:13
  You need to see. You need to see how they show
• 20:17
  how they show. Yeah, yeah.
• 20:20
  Throughout you need you need, you need to listen to them when
• 20:22
  they when they when they debate about sports, because I, I tell,
• 20:26
  I tell people all the time and it's a little off topic, but I,
• 20:28
  I tell people all the time that sports conversation, especially
• 20:34
  in on various different platforms is gossip.
• 20:37
  It's reality TV. It is.
• 20:39
  I like that you're so right. You're so right.
• 20:42
  It's it's gossip. Especially.
• 20:44
  When they bring up the what the GM said and that that that's.
• 20:49
  You know, you know, you sound like.
• 20:52
  Who do I sound like? Stephen A Smith a little bit
• 20:54
  that sound like what she was about to give.
• 20:56
  Yeah, that may know, but that's that's it.
• 20:58
  But it's true. And so again, just to give
• 21:00
  context, as I stated in the, in the dissertation, as I said to
• 21:03
  you or say this audience now is that I want people to consider,
• 21:07
  don't look at corporal punishment as the reason why we
• 21:10
  a, the way we are, But think of it more as a main ingredient or
• 21:14
  a conduit that plays, that plays a significant role of how we get
• 21:19
  to show up or how we don't get to show up.
• 21:20
  And in this context, I particularly focused on how men
• 21:23
  get to show up and not get to show up.
• 21:26
  So that that was consider it that considering it like a
• 21:29
  bridge. To somewhere else.
• 21:31
  OK, I like where it's going. You could keep flowing because
• 21:35
  it's not like you was getting wrapped up.
• 21:37
  I want to interrupt or don't feel like you got to stop.
• 21:40
  If the spirit move, it'll keep keep on going Doc.
• 21:43
  Oh my goodness. But yes, I so in that process,
• 21:47
  you know, we had to figure out like, OK, well, how are you
• 21:49
  going to, what theories would you use to structure this
• 21:56
  research project? And so it came down to
• 22:03
  ecological. Systems theory.
• 22:04
  OK, so give the people a simple definition of what that is.
• 22:08
  I know that's normal, in other words.
• 22:10
  Ecological systems theory is a theory that looks at the
• 22:13
  functioning of something of something or someone
• 22:17
  particularly in the various different sub parts of our
• 22:22
  environment. And they range from there's six
• 22:26
  of them, but I'm not going to describe it into that.
• 22:30
  What it ranges from is what we call the micro to the macro
• 22:33
  environments in the middle week called mezzo.
• 22:35
  And so those environments, the the micro can consist as quickly
• 22:39
  as somebody's family, you know, their friends, their immediate,
• 22:44
  their immediate community. The mezzo can be considered more
• 22:47
  so like in a larger sense or like the organ is the larger
• 22:53
  organizations or like for example, the city or the state
• 22:57
  that somebody lives in. And then larger context of the
• 23:00
  macro is like the country or even the, the larger demographic
• 23:04
  of what that person may belong to.
• 23:07
  So for example, US African Americans, we statistically make
• 23:10
  13% of this population. So that's the macro.
• 23:14
  You know, that's the macro way of looking at like at us.
• 23:18
  Now again, I gave you all three examples of how ecological
• 23:24
  systems can be, can be viewed, but there's six, there's
• 23:27
  actually 6 systems, but that's a simpler way of simple looking at
• 23:32
  it. We wanted to look at how the
• 23:37
  child rearing practice of corporal punishment impacted how
• 23:42
  or got reinforced that that practice got reinforced in the
• 23:45
  various different environments. So that is why I use.
• 23:50
  I use that. That theoretical.
• 23:52
  Framework. So that's, that's why we we
• 23:54
  wanted to see how does the nation enforce the idea that you
• 23:59
  step out of line, you going to get dealt with harshly.
• 24:02
  Yeah, that's that's giving tough love.
• 24:04
  Yeah, so like that's, you know, I'm saying like I needed to view
• 24:09
  it in that context. So that's why I chose ecological
• 24:12
  systems theory. Now the LAT, the second theory
• 24:14
  on what it got suggested to me and I understood the reason
• 24:17
  behind it because it did make sense.
• 24:18
  The second one was called attachment theory, of course, by
• 24:21
  John I. Love attachment theory.
• 24:23
  It's about John Boby. If you're not familiar with it,
• 24:26
  essentially attachment theory is a theory that looks at how
• 24:31
  people's early experiences with parental figures, or you know,
• 24:35
  familiar figures for that matter, shapes how they are
• 24:39
  secure in their relationship dynamics, but particularly their
• 24:42
  ability to attach or not to attach, and so I was convinced
• 24:46
  can't. Wait to hear what follows.
• 24:50
  Was convinced that. Again, corporal punishment
• 24:56
  played a role with families in how particularly black men
• 25:02
  became either secure in their attachments or insecure.
• 25:06
  I believe that it played a role again, I'm.
• 25:09
  Sorry my brain is going over here too.
• 25:11
  I'm like, it depends on how soon it was introduced, what was
• 25:14
  introduced and how. Sure, sure, sure.
• 25:18
  So again, I'm going to keep saying this throughout this this
• 25:21
  conversation, I want you all to remember I'm not labeling
• 25:24
  corporal punishment as the cause of these things.
• 25:26
  Consider it a main ingredient or a conduit. 2 said results, 2
• 25:31
  said social outcomes. There's an association, but it
• 25:34
  is not Oh yeah, that's the only reason.
• 25:36
  It's like, no, because there's a much larger way that we as a
• 25:40
  culture discipline, which somewhat argued would call it
• 25:43
  around punitive, which is a whole nother discussion, but
• 25:46
  we're focusing on corporal punishment today.
• 25:48
  So with that being said, was those that was those were the
• 25:51
  two theories that were used to contextualize this study.
• 25:56
  OK. From there, we needed to figure
• 25:58
  out, OK, how are you going to gather this data now?
• 26:03
  I was always in favor of qualitative research, but I
• 26:07
  didn't know. Man, I know which approach.
• 26:10
  Yeah, you think qualitative research is a lot of work?
• 26:13
  It was when I did interviews for my stuff, Yeah.
• 26:17
  I mean, I enjoyed it because like, clearly I talk, right?
• 26:20
  But like when you got to go through those interviews and
• 26:22
  then do all the code in it? Yeah, yeah.
• 26:25
  We're going to get there. We're going to get to there.
• 26:28
  So here's the thing, the approach that I chose to you was
• 26:31
  interpretive phenomenological analysis better known as IPA.
• 26:36
  And what that that style is, it allows you to have a semi
• 26:41
  structured interview with a potential participant and you
• 26:45
  are to gather information about whatever, particularly their
• 26:50
  lived experience from from that, the trans from that interview,
• 26:54
  from that transcription, from that interview, you become the
• 26:58
  interpreter. You become the interpreter of
• 27:03
  said information. So that means there is some
• 27:05
  level of there's some level of wiggle room in some of the
• 27:11
  things that get said. Now, I wasn't my program, yes,
• 27:16
  did train me in qualitative research, but coming from a
• 27:19
  quality quantitative standpoint, it took me a while to really
• 27:22
  walk into that because I was really afraid of like, well, I
• 27:27
  don't want to, I don't want to impose.
• 27:32
  And so the idea of interpretive phenomenological analysis is
• 27:36
  that we're we're in the tip to understand what the participant
• 27:40
  is, is making sense of their experience while they make,
• 27:43
  while we're, we're, we're going through it is that the process
• 27:48
  of that is called sense making. And so I I had to jump into that
• 27:56
  kind of late, but nonetheless I did.
• 28:00
  Yeah, that's what we decided with you.
• 28:03
  Have any questions so far before I keep going?
• 28:05
  I'm tracking, but then I was going to ask just like then what
• 28:09
  were some of the like historical and cultural contexts, like
• 28:12
  whether we're talking about, like you mentioned slavery,
• 28:15
  we're talking about survival, systemic, you know, all those
• 28:19
  things. So like how, what did you ground
• 28:21
  it in? Right.
• 28:22
  Because you were talking about that too, like kind of like one
• 28:24
  wanting to be protective of the community too, but also to frame
• 28:29
  it in a way where it could be digestible at the same time.
• 28:35
  So I talked about how corporal punishment was used in the
• 28:38
  enslavement period and and long story, African American
• 28:41
  households at the time that were enslaved used it as a means to
• 28:45
  well, I don't want the overseers to get a hold of you.
• 28:50
  So I would rather me deal with you so I know that you will be
• 28:58
  safer under my brutalization. But it's still brutalization.
• 29:02
  It's still brutalization. Yeah, it's so many little
• 29:08
  people. People raise their kids like
• 29:11
  that now where they are like, well, I don't want you to go out
• 29:15
  into the world thinking it's this, this or that.
• 29:17
  And then they like, really snuff out their lights.
• 29:20
  Yeah, and that's. They stomp on their dreams.
• 29:22
  Yeah, the world don't owe you nothing.
• 29:25
  But then it's like, but you're treating me worse than the
• 29:28
  world. And, and, and blacks, you know,
• 29:32
  and I, and I understand that it's, it's meant to be a
• 29:35
  protective factor, but it also is as, as you would say, a, a
• 29:38
  light dimmer in the sense that when we vilify, we, we're guilty
• 29:44
  of vilifying and demonizing our children's normal child
• 29:48
  behavior. That's the one.
• 29:51
  We're get we're very we make we turn them into criminals based
• 29:55
  off of them being inquisitive children wanting to learn about
• 29:58
  the world around them. And what we teach them is that
• 29:59
  you can't afford to learn the world or explore the world or
• 30:03
  they examine the world like your white counterparts that look
• 30:06
  that that looked at your Mama gives you when you're in a story
• 30:09
  you want you see. Like don't you touch nothing?
• 30:12
  That the and and and it's understandable, but it but it's
• 30:15
  also sad too, because it it it is one of the first teaching
• 30:19
  moments that you and. You can't do that.
• 30:23
  Yep. It's all like, yeah, one, one of
• 30:26
  the main points that I will drive home today is that this is
• 30:31
  one of the main tools if if at one point white people or, or
• 30:40
  people who do benefit even outside of being white of
• 30:43
  systemic oppression, if they were the overseers of systemic
• 30:47
  oppression, we in return have become the janitors, our own
• 30:51
  custodians of our own oppression.
• 30:53
  And this is one of the main tools that we use as a means to
• 30:59
  keep the lie, the keep the system running because this is
• 31:03
  how we abide. This is how we teach our kids
• 31:06
  how to abide. And so my my argument is like, I
• 31:08
  hear it, but the other side of it is that as Trayvon Martin's
• 31:14
  parents did them whooping, they whooping Trayvon Martin's as of
• 31:18
  the child stop him from from getting killed by George
• 31:20
  Zimmerman. Nothing to do with it.
• 31:22
  As George Floyd, you know, him calling his mom and I'm sure his
• 31:28
  Mama probably probably swung on him when he was coming.
• 31:30
  I'm sure she. Probably saying because he is a
• 31:32
  big boy. Yeah, I'm sure she did.
• 31:35
  Did it stop him from getting choked?
• 31:38
  Did it stop Brianna Taylor from getting raped?
• 31:42
  And, and, and to some context, yes, I understand the protective
• 31:47
  factors sense of us learning how to de escalate situations with
• 31:53
  law enforcement or, or to appear subservient.
• 31:58
  I'm not saying that it's not 100%.
• 31:59
  There's not, there's no validity in that.
• 32:01
  But overall, when it comes to the livelihood or or humanity of
• 32:08
  African Americans, the establishment overall has shown
• 32:11
  US time and time again, no matter if you get your ass
• 32:14
  whooped or not, we going to kill you just off a general
• 32:16
  principle. How you look, How you.
• 32:18
  That's right. So, you know, in our minds, we
• 32:21
  believe that's, that's the evidence based practice.
• 32:23
  I think people, black folks, look at corporal punishment as
• 32:25
  an evidence based practice. It's evidence or something.
• 32:32
  She was like, no, he didn't use scholarly evidence.
• 32:35
  But I, I do, I do. They look at it as a, let me say
• 32:38
  this as a faith evidence based practice.
• 32:42
  Let me say that that is they see it as a faith evidence based
• 32:45
  practice. Why?
• 32:46
  Because it's also informed. You know where I'm going.
• 32:49
  You're going, but say it for the audience.
• 32:51
  It's, I call it a faith evidence based practice because it is
• 32:54
  informed by a large number of of our culture's beliefs in
• 32:59
  Christianity, which going back to the the verse in Proverbs
• 33:02
  where the rise for the child, as well as our historical context
• 33:06
  of of how we experience it here in the enslaved period.
• 33:09
  We we see it. OK, well, this gets you to
• 33:12
  immediately stop. I don't have to worry about your
• 33:16
  behavior. So I mean, it, it, it, it's, it
• 33:18
  was that I conducted 16 interviews with 16 African
• 33:22
  American men ranging in the ages, I think as young as I
• 33:28
  think the youngest was 24, the oldest was like 60.
• 33:33
  Well, you got a nice band. Yeah, I had.
• 33:35
  I had boomer. I had boomers all the way to
• 33:38
  millennia. Young millennials.
• 33:41
  Yeah. Yeah, I didn't have, no, I
• 33:44
  didn't have no Gen. Z or, or.
• 33:46
  That would be really interesting.
• 33:48
  Yeah, Gen. Z or or or Alpha, that would
• 33:52
  have been interesting. I didn't.
• 33:53
  I didn't. I didn't have.
• 33:55
  Right. But I think your demographic was
• 33:57
  appropriate. Yeah, Yeah.
• 34:01
  So as you're you're talking, I was just thinking about my
• 34:05
  experience growing up and when you're using the when you were
• 34:11
  just basically saying corporal punishment at home doesn't stop
• 34:15
  certain things from happening. Right.
• 34:16
  And when I think back about the boys that I knew specifically
• 34:20
  who were going to juvie in middle school, I can't remember
• 34:24
  if there was anyone in elementary, but those that did
• 34:27
  go to juvie, they were getting they're Mama since some of the
• 34:33
  dads. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:35
  Like I didn't see it, but you know, it like that behavior
• 34:38
  outside is a reflection sometimes of what's happening at
• 34:41
  home. And in some cases, that's the
• 34:44
  reason why they're acting up in public because one, there's not
• 34:49
  that room for expression that you talked about and they're
• 34:52
  going internal and we're talking about attachment.
• 34:55
  Their needs are not being met how they need them to be met.
• 34:58
  They don't have the experience of feeling safe, finding
• 35:01
  pleasure in them. They don't have the experience
• 35:03
  of attunement essentially, you know what I mean?
• 35:06
  Like all those different factors that go into attachment that
• 35:09
  develop a healthy sense of self. And with corporal punishment,
• 35:14
  it's too intense. It erodes at a person's ability
• 35:17
  to develop self respect because how can you have self respect
• 35:23
  when you're disrespected? And some of the language that's
• 35:26
  used is venomous and towards children.
• 35:30
  Children like you're trying to toughen him up when baby you
• 35:33
  really abusing him and you set him up to go abuse others and
• 35:38
  you're teaching him this is how we deal with people.
• 35:40
  This is how we deal with people we love.
• 35:44
  Yeah. That's heavy.
• 35:46
  Yeah. And at a young, like I said, at
• 35:48
  a young age, I said, I said, what's the difference between
• 35:51
  this and the and, and people in domestic violence?
• 35:55
  And a lot. Of people didn't want to touch,
• 35:56
  they didn't want to touch. I was like, and to me, the way I
• 36:01
  look at it, you know, and I and I black folks, I know we're, we,
• 36:04
  we, we have struggled. I'm not, I'm not denying it.
• 36:07
  But the way I look at it is like, if we can't see our stuff,
• 36:10
  why? Why would we expect another
• 36:11
  group of people who have they have interest in to not see our
• 36:14
  stuff, to see our stuff? But let's be clear, our going
• 36:17
  back because everything in enslavement, nobody wanted to
• 36:20
  see the stuff because it was that had it was so brutal, it
• 36:24
  was traumatic. It was whatever egregious
• 36:27
  whatever, like strong language you can use.
• 36:30
  So why are we talking about it? But then it didn't change
• 36:35
  anything. But you know what?
• 36:37
  Recently I've been more curious about tears and how that's the
• 36:44
  other thing, what you're crying for, right?
• 36:46
  And that, that to me goes into corporate punishment, the
• 36:49
  expression. Yeah.
• 36:51
  Absolutely. Our tears are so dope because
• 36:54
  we, you know, we have three kind of like types of tears.
• 36:56
  We got the basal tears that help with like the normal like
• 36:59
  functioning, breaking down bacteria that gets in our eyes
• 37:02
  or whatever. Then we have like the reflective
• 37:05
  tears that are more cleansing and more water based to help
• 37:07
  when we are like, there's a irritant like you cutting
• 37:10
  onions, the pollen, right? Like, and then you have the
• 37:13
  emotional tears that have like 4 different like chemicals and
• 37:18
  hormones in them. One of them one, we literally
• 37:20
  release cortisol when we cry, right?
• 37:23
  And we know that's attached to stress levels.
• 37:25
  So you can take your stress levels down just by crying.
• 37:28
  But we told don't cry. But we also have boy.
• 37:32
  Yeah, I would. Have known that if I would have
• 37:35
  looked at that. Oh yeah, you could have worked
• 37:37
  this in easy. You welcome.
• 37:39
  You can write you a little article or whatever.
• 37:40
  We're not saying a little in 2025, you can write an article
• 37:43
  or whatever. But another one that was in
• 37:46
  there that was really, it was like the can't pronounce it.
• 37:51
  It was like the ACTH something, it was something hormone.
• 37:55
  But this one, it says it is an endogenous hormone.
• 37:58
  I mean an endogenous opioid. So literally you cry, there's a
• 38:03
  pain, our bite, our tears have a built in opioid to help ease our
• 38:10
  pain physically and emotionally. But we not crying out here and
• 38:18
  there's other impacts. And I'm like, all you need is a
• 38:21
  good cry. Not all, but it's huge.
• 38:29
  The, it's funny, you know, the conscious brothers and sisters
• 38:31
  of our community, they, they talked about the idea of
• 38:34
  knowledge itself. And when I hear my, I feel like
• 38:37
  my topic, and even to what you're speaking about, it
• 38:40
  speaks, it still speaks to the idea.
• 38:41
  There's so much about who we are, what we are we really don't
• 38:45
  understand. It's the human body.
• 38:47
  We rely on what they teach us in health class.
• 38:51
  Unless you become a doctor, and even if you become a doctor, you
• 38:54
  might have your specialties, but they may not be going that deep
• 38:58
  into it. There's so much about this body,
• 39:02
  this brain that it really can't heal itself.
• 39:05
  But we don't know. We don't know where to start.
• 39:07
  And then we have so much stuff to unlearn, like the
• 39:10
  programming. And there was something you said
• 39:12
  earlier, it was a like a rhetorical question, but I had
• 39:15
  to answer. But a lot of out of this, even
• 39:18
  like with corporal punishment, it's our programming.
• 39:20
  We're not challenging the programming.
• 39:22
  We're not exploring, that's right, doing more hard than
• 39:25
  good. We're just running it because we
• 39:27
  know how to run it. But it's like, if it's not
• 39:29
  working, it's not really keeping our sons and daughters safe,
• 39:32
  Then why? What are we doing?
• 39:35
  Because that's all I know and to and it's it's too uncomfortable.
• 39:38
  It's too uncomfortable for my ego to to challenge.
• 39:40
  What? They're not going to say that
• 39:41
  part. They're not going to say that
• 39:42
  second part that is. That's what it is.
• 39:45
  It's like, you know, it's extremely uncomfortable to
• 39:48
  change, although change is inevitable.
• 39:50
  I you know, they, they romanticize the idea of
• 39:53
  revolution and like, you know, through violent acts and of
• 39:57
  taking a anarchy and taking over, you know, the government.
• 40:00
  I said, but no, the most revolutionary things are as how
• 40:03
  we choose to treat each other differently.
• 40:04
  The fact. That then we have.
• 40:05
  Peace, peace in our interactions, the fact that we
• 40:08
  have stability in our households.
• 40:10
  However you choose to build your household, that there's
• 40:12
  stability that you know whether when you subscribe to
• 40:15
  heteronormatives or not or not. Like their?
• 40:18
  Stability, you know, that is the most revolutionary.
• 40:21
  Yeah, because you know what it is, people are also still
• 40:25
  conditioned from things happening to them, right?
• 40:28
  They they're operating from that.
• 40:29
  So they want to see something externally, not understanding
• 40:33
  the power that they have internally and what they
• 40:35
  cultivate in themselves, in their homes, in the ways that
• 40:38
  they're showing up, like you said.
• 40:39
  And loving people like that is one of the most powerful things
• 40:42
  because if we all did that, we wouldn't really have to rely on
• 40:46
  just our homes. If these negative things are
• 40:48
  happening to people, you're coming out into the world and
• 40:51
  people are treating you good and you feel loved and like you're
• 40:53
  being affirmed in a different way and you're learning this is
• 40:56
  not how it is because there's some people that brutality is
• 41:00
  their norm. They think that that's how this
• 41:02
  goes. Yeah, when I was in high school.
• 41:07
  It's funny too, because my father made the same
• 41:11
  observation. Observation.
• 41:14
  Was that OK? Go ahead.
• 41:17
  He noticed. He's like, you know, he's like,
• 41:20
  he's like a lot of kids are. He's like, like, they all just
• 41:23
  really angry. Yeah, and.
• 41:25
  I was like, it was funny too, because again, no, I, I marked
• 41:33
  and noted that how I interacted with my parents wasn't quite the
• 41:37
  same as other black families. And what did that mean is that,
• 41:41
  you know, my parents, I was a little bit more, not a little
• 41:45
  bit more, a lot more. I was more challenged oriented
• 41:48
  oriented with my parents. And I thought it was
• 41:49
  disrespectful, but I, I, I questioned.
• 41:54
  You were a scholar from way back.
• 41:56
  Yeah, yeah. You know, and I, I think both of
• 41:58
  them would proudly admit to that.
• 42:00
  You know, was it always convenient for them?
• 42:03
  No. Or was it always No.
• 42:05
  But they, they, I, I know that it's definitely now with most
• 42:08
  recently the turn of events, I know they could they could
• 42:11
  definitely be proud of. Ain't still drying on that
• 42:16
  doctor. You know, I'm saying, and it was
• 42:19
  funny because I would share stories with some of my other
• 42:22
  friends about me. Question.
• 42:25
  They looked at me like you quest.
• 42:27
  You live to tell this story. They looking at you, probably
• 42:30
  looking for some bruises. You still got all your teeth.
• 42:33
  Yeah, like, yeah. And I remember having some of
• 42:37
  those conversations with my parents that like, yeah, we, you
• 42:40
  know, we didn't, I didn't raise you in in that context fully.
• 42:45
  And there was so much that would get left on the table as far as
• 42:49
  who they who they could have been.
• 42:50
  And quite frankly, a lot of my contemporaries, they were
• 42:53
  violent. They didn't know how to resolve
• 42:54
  conflict through exchange of ideas.
• 42:57
  Like it was, you know, and that's where it came from.
• 43:01
  It's like, OK, well, this is how you've taught them how.
• 43:05
  Nobody expressing and then we wonder why they don't know how
• 43:09
  to express and then you yelling at them, you're creating this
• 43:14
  tense situation where they're frightened that now they're
• 43:17
  fight or flight mode is activated.
• 43:19
  Or if I am I going to say the wrong thing so they don't say
• 43:21
  nothing. I'm gonna get to whip in any
• 43:22
  way, so I ain't gonna say nothing.
• 43:24
  And you know, one time, man, I was.
• 43:30
  So I'm, I'm from Racine, WI and we're not that far from Chicago.
• 43:35
  So we're positioned between, we're closer to Milwaukee, which
• 43:38
  isn't Racine. But then Chicago was like an
• 43:40
  hour and change like the same like how we got 495 out here.
• 43:43
  We use we use 94 and that'll take you way.
• 43:48
  Yeah, yeah, take you straight there.
• 43:50
  But so we had a lot of people that came up from Chicago, you
• 43:53
  know, the great migration. That's how my family even got
• 43:55
  there right from Mississippi, Great migration.
• 43:57
  But a lot of people from Chicago ended up coming into Wisconsin.
• 44:02
  The welfare benefits were better, but also that meant that
• 44:06
  the gangs right Gangster Disciples, that's.
• 44:10
  Yeah. But but in the neighborhood, I
• 44:13
  grew up in it and in that city it was more GD and all.
• 44:17
  Hoover, like Larry Hoover was like a celebrity.
• 44:19
  I don't know anybody that had met him, but they were saying
• 44:23
  his name all the time. But anyway, so we had a lot of
• 44:25
  violence, the gangs, the drugs and things like that came and
• 44:29
  even trauma. And I remember one time I was
• 44:31
  getting my hair braided by this lady.
• 44:33
  She was a friend, brother, girlfriend, baby Mama, somebody,
• 44:38
  but she very good here. So I was like I'm going to go
• 44:41
  get my hair braided right And I had never been by her house or
• 44:44
  anything like that and like she would do my friends here.
• 44:47
  So I'm at her house and she had all she had like 3 boys and then
• 44:51
  a baby daughter and you know, braiding be taken a minute.
• 44:56
  Yeah and you know, I remember I used to judge them little boys.
• 45:01
  I'd be like, I ain't no kids is bad, right?
• 45:04
  And then I was in the house with them when she's braiding my hair
• 45:07
  when I saw the way she was handling them.
• 45:09
  She she was a grown woman and she punched her son in the chest
• 45:13
  in front of me in the house. Now what?
• 45:16
  No mandated reporter in those days because I would have had to
• 45:20
  report that. But.
• 45:22
  Yeah, for sure. I was just blown away.
• 45:26
  And I was like, And then we tell him not to cry.
• 45:29
  You just punched the a six year old.
• 45:32
  I don't know if he was eight, I can't remember.
• 45:34
  This was like 20 years ago or something.
• 45:37
  Hush. This boy in his chest and then
• 45:39
  he was supposed to take it. That is a boy.
• 45:41
  He is not a man. And you think you're making him
• 45:43
  a man by abusing him. Oh, you are making him angry.
• 45:48
  You are creating a pattern for him to abuse women because this
• 45:54
  rage and resentment that he's experiencing is going to develop
• 45:58
  from you, his mom. Yeah.
• 46:00
  Or have a hatred towards women that that can manifest in
• 46:04
  misogyny. Or we'll start the word, well,
• 46:10
  womanizing. Yeah.
• 46:11
  All of it. Yep, Yep.
• 46:13
  But that just really blew my mind.
• 46:15
  But it's like, that's not the only way to deal with him.
• 46:19
  Like they have a mind. They're not just the physical
• 46:21
  being. You need to talk to them two.
• 46:25
  Yeah. More.
• 46:27
  Yeah, Yeah, it was, it was. So it's funny you mention that
• 46:31
  because one of the main, one of the main themes, so to give
• 46:34
  context to the study, there were there were two forms of analysis
• 46:38
  through, through the interpretive phenomenological
• 46:41
  analysis or approach that I used.
• 46:43
  There was 2 two things that I focused on, which was thematic
• 46:47
  analysis and sentiment analysis. And thematic analysis is
• 46:52
  basically designed for, to just the things that come up in the
• 46:58
  transcripts repeatedly over and over and over again.
• 47:03
  And then the sentiment analysis is the emotions that come up in
• 47:08
  the, in their accounts of their experiences.
• 47:10
  And for this in this context is like, OK, what were the emotions
• 47:13
  that followed them with them talking about the experience
• 47:16
  with discipline? And what, what were the things
• 47:17
  that kept coming up in the process of talking about the
• 47:20
  experiences with discipline, particularly corporal
• 47:21
  punishment? And so one of the main ones,
• 47:23
  since you brought it up in that account, that story with the the
• 47:26
  hard hitting hair braider, heavy-handed hair braider,
• 47:29
  right? She was also heavy-handed on my
• 47:31
  scalp. I bet she was.
• 47:32
  I said she ain't braiding my hair no more.
• 47:35
  I bet, I bet she probably baited your hair versus violence.
• 47:37
  She has. She punched them boys.
• 47:39
  Not, not quite, but yeah, it was intense.
• 47:42
  I needed Tylenol before, during and.
• 47:45
  After Don't miss Don't Miss 11 strand Anyways, one of the
• 47:49
  themes was emotional suppression and masculinity.
• 47:51
  Yeah. And by definition, that is the
• 47:54
  role of discipline in shaping masculinity through emotional
• 47:57
  suppression, resilience and avoidance, influencing
• 48:00
  expressions of anger, sadness and fear in the response of
• 48:03
  authority and punishment. And so.
• 48:04
  Here's the green Hold on, hold on.
• 48:06
  You said a whole bunch of words. I need you to slow down for me
• 48:09
  as well as the audience so I can catch all of that.
• 48:12
  I love how you're just like your, your research is natural
• 48:15
  and that just flow. But you got to slow it down for
• 48:17
  the rest of us who are just new to this and tuning in today.
• 48:21
  Sorry about that. So the theme one one of the main
• 48:26
  themes in in in the thematic analysis was emotional
• 48:30
  suppression and masculinity by definition.
• 48:33
  That is the role of discipline in shaping masculinity through
• 48:37
  emotional suppression. Resilience and avoidance
• 48:40
  influence expressions of anger, sadness, and fear in response to
• 48:44
  authority and punishment. There's so much I'm hearing in
• 48:49
  that my clinical ears, right? Yeah.
• 48:52
  And so if you go back to the statement that I made earlier
• 48:55
  about we don't get in the masculine, we don't get to
• 48:58
  experience, that's what I was. I was alluding to this thing.
• 49:01
  Got it. What ends up happening what what
• 49:06
  end up being suggested through these 16 men is that through the
• 49:11
  the that child ruling practice, they learned that, hey, you
• 49:14
  don't, you don't get to express your emotions.
• 49:16
  There's a higher price for you to express your emotions.
• 49:19
  There's a higher price for you to out just in just just in
• 49:26
  general, there's this is a higher price.
• 49:27
  And so therefore you need to be mindful of that price in
• 49:30
  reference to not only yourself, but to really more so the
• 49:32
  comfort of others. And so that also defines your
• 49:36
  mask masculinity, which is not exclusive to African American
• 49:39
  men. However, if you consider how
• 49:40
  this society has been scared as well as attracted to African or
• 49:46
  African American men's masculinity.
• 49:49
  Yeah. You'd have to, you have to put
• 49:52
  that in context. And so I attempted to explain
• 49:54
  this into the idea of I need, I need, I need people to
• 49:57
  understand that this is about someone who happens to be a man,
• 50:04
  who happens to be an African American man.
• 50:07
  Their ability to successfully navigate a society which either
• 50:12
  fetishizes them or vilifies them as a very close relation to very
• 50:17
  close. That's a very.
• 50:17
  It's a thin line, you know, as they were saying, between love
• 50:21
  and hate, you know, you know, I'm saying that figuratively and
• 50:25
  literally, like there's a thin line between that and.
• 50:27
  So you have to learn how to play that game early, depending upon
• 50:33
  how you want to navigate to succeed and to move forward and
• 50:37
  to develop social capital even amongst your own people.
• 50:40
  Yeah. Absolutely.
• 50:41
  Even in your own community like you have to learn how to
• 50:44
  navigate that. Yeah.
• 50:48
  And as you're saying that, I think about so many guys that I
• 50:52
  saw who had light, they were just like chill guys, but like
• 50:57
  they had to go dark or like harsh to be able to survive.
• 51:05
  Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, what are you?
• 51:07
  How, how did this happen? Like this?
• 51:09
  This ain't you. But it's who they needed to
• 51:11
  become. So that cause those who
• 51:15
  experience brutality in their home, they brought it outside to
• 51:19
  somebody who was it easy target or easy mark?
• 51:24
  And it's just like this. It's just, it just keeps
• 51:26
  feeling, it just keeps giving because they don't have outlets.
• 51:30
  So you talked about expression through the arts and things like
• 51:32
  that and sports. But some people don't get any of
• 51:35
  those things or they don't have the grades to do those things.
• 51:40
  And so that might have been the one thing that gave them hope.
• 51:43
  But now where their grades are down or whatever, they can't
• 51:47
  play football, they can't play baseball, basketball, whatever.
• 51:50
  Now they just. They just.
• 51:53
  Yeah. So the code just give you
• 51:57
  context, The codes that came with that was masculinity
• 51:59
  expectations, which was cultural norms dictating toughness and
• 52:03
  emotional restraint in men, right.
• 52:06
  So that could be like you cry and I'm gonna give you something
• 52:08
  to cry about, you know, toughen up, you know, emotional
• 52:14
  regulation, managing and controlling emotional responses
• 52:17
  due to past discipline. And I'm sure that was non
• 52:19
  existent or very low because it was a model by their parents.
• 52:23
  If you jump into violence, that's not emotional regulation.
• 52:26
  Yeah, I think at some, at some point, you know, I think at some
• 52:34
  point I didn't ask this question, but I would, it would
• 52:36
  have been interesting to ask. I was like, you know, was there
• 52:39
  ever, was there a period of time where you began to become more
• 52:46
  tolerant into getting hit by your parents?
• 52:49
  You have to, I think, to survive it, like you have to like go
• 52:54
  somewhere else. I'm sure it wouldn't be
• 52:56
  surprising if a lot of them dissociate.
• 52:58
  Yeah, and I and honestly, I heard, I heard the dissociation.
• 53:03
  OK, how did that show up? The lack of recall, the lack of
• 53:09
  recall and certain things also also it was more so like I found
• 53:13
  the dissociation in a number of my participants could not
• 53:19
  consider, I'm going to say it like this, could not consider
• 53:22
  the possibility of how the punishment may have impacted
• 53:25
  them in other areas. That's also the programming, and
• 53:28
  that's also the emotional detachment that was modeled and
• 53:32
  programmed into them. Yeah.
• 53:34
  Correct. Which was, which was, Which was
• 53:36
  one of the high sentiment, one of the high sentiments in the
• 53:40
  sentiment analysis or sentiment trends, which was detachment and
• 53:43
  objectivity. See, Lisa, I told you when you
• 53:45
  send me your abstract, I say, oh, I'm a like this, like I'm
• 53:48
  going to be into this for real. Go ahead.
• 53:53
  This is good. So the detachment is detachment
• 53:57
  and objectivity. So this was when the
• 53:58
  participants, this distances themselves emotionally
• 54:03
  describing events without personal engagement.
• 54:05
  And so frequency across the transcripts, this was one of the
• 54:10
  ones that were high. There was three, there were
• 54:11
  three sentiment trends that were high.
• 54:13
  This was one of them. The other two was justification
• 54:15
  and rationalization. And then it's it's very on par.
• 54:19
  It's very on par. And then the other was neutral
• 54:22
  acceptance. So go back really quick because
• 54:24
  you and I noticed lingo as Howard prepare social workers
• 54:27
  and licensed clinicians, right? What tell me, talk about those
• 54:31
  defense mechanisms that you just said, the rationalization and.
• 54:36
  The rationalization justification that that one was
• 54:40
  defined as when participants justified corporal punishment as
• 54:43
  a necessary or acceptable within cultural and familial context.
• 54:49
  Meaning that those individuals normalized their upbringing
• 54:54
  through the child career practices of corporal punishment
• 54:56
  based off of their understanding of not only their family, but
• 55:02
  the overall experience with what they understood as being a part
• 55:06
  of the larger culture, which is black culture.
• 55:10
  So they, they, they saw it as OK, Well, this, this was
• 55:14
  necessary for me to have a better underst standing in
• 55:18
  respect for not only myself, but others in this environment, me
• 55:21
  having a little discipline and also me being able to survive in
• 55:25
  particular situations that may not have the may not be, but
• 55:29
  that that was what it that was what they were describing.
• 55:34
  Yeah, I'm doing this because I love you.
• 55:36
  You're not going to go out here and embarrass me or I'm I'm
• 55:39
  doing this for your own goods so you don't get out there and act
• 55:42
  the fool. Then you get arrested or killed.
• 55:45
  Correct. Yeah.
• 55:48
  So that that was a big, that was a big part, big, big part of it.
• 55:52
  One of the moderate ones that I like to speak on as well was
• 55:55
  humor and lightheartedness. And so like there's a lot of
• 55:59
  humor that is that was used, not even just from the 1616
• 56:05
  gentlemen that I interviewed, but also throughout my time as
• 56:09
  me. This short time I've been living
• 56:11
  on this earth and I've observed like people who happen to be
• 56:16
  famous or people who've been on camera for whatever reason,
• 56:19
  comedians talk about corporate punishment and the humor used in
• 56:24
  the, and I, and I remember looking at the the these clips
• 56:28
  and I used to say to myself, there's something wrong with
• 56:32
  this. There's something wrong.
• 56:35
  It was funny too. Do you remember the show vibe
• 56:38
  with, with Chris Spencer? That was, I think that was his
• 56:40
  name. Who else was in it?
• 56:42
  I remember seeing him on the show, but I'm like, it was what
• 56:45
  it had like one season. Did it go that long?
• 56:47
  One or two, but he was the. He was the.
• 56:49
  OK, back in the 90s, I know it was 90s because you said Chris
• 56:53
  Spencer and it was called Vibe, but clearly.
• 56:57
  Based off the magazine. Right, right, right.
• 56:59
  Which was huge. Right.
• 57:02
  OK, OK. I'm with you now.
• 57:05
  You. Remember him?
• 57:05
  I remember him. But the show, I'm like, it took
• 57:09
  me a second to go back in the in the archives up here in his
• 57:11
  brain. But yeah.
• 57:14
  So I bring him up because I remember as a kid he made it a
• 57:18
  point to ask all his guests, particularly the black ones,
• 57:23
  that they whoop their kids. Interesting.
• 57:27
  He always, it's funny because you know, I don't know if you
• 57:29
  knew this, but he had his daughter, his daughter or child,
• 57:33
  son, whatever they went to Howard in the past, past five
• 57:37
  6/7. Years, OK.
• 57:38
  With Boris, Boris Kodjos 1 is and I, it's funny, if I had ever
• 57:45
  came in contact with him, that's probably one of the questions I
• 57:48
  would, would, would ask that brother.
• 57:49
  I said what? What made Why?
• 57:54
  Why did you want to know that? Yeah, or you could ask this kid,
• 57:57
  did your dad whoop you? What did that look?
• 57:59
  Like, yeah, no, definitely, definitely.
• 58:04
  But these were the things that were coming up.
• 58:10
  I can give you other examples of the other sentiment trends as
• 58:13
  well as the thing other things like for example resentment and
• 58:16
  criticism was another sentiment trend trend and.
• 58:19
  I can see how it is. Where the participants, yeah,
• 58:22
  where the participants expressed frustration and disagreement
• 58:26
  with corporal punishment. And also let me say this to give
• 58:28
  you, give you further context that some the sentiment, the the
• 58:34
  sentiment of resentment and criticism came more so from Gen.
• 58:40
  Xers and very much so with millennials.
• 58:42
  OK. So as as as the age increase.
• 58:48
  Decrease the resentment increase I mean the wait as the age
• 58:53
  increase or decrease. As as age decrease.
• 58:57
  Resentment. Increase.
• 58:59
  OK, so they said we we not with the program, no, we rebellion.
• 59:05
  OK. Yeah, that was that was
• 59:11
  definitely there. There was another subsection
• 59:13
  that originally I'd used, but I was not able to include it.
• 59:18
  And I do want to speak to that really quick is the structural
• 59:20
  coding and the structural coding categorize responses according
• 59:24
  to the research questions, which those research questions, I
• 59:28
  created those under the contextualization of attachment
• 59:31
  theory. OK, OK.
• 59:33
  That's how. That's how attachment theory was
• 59:35
  involved in this study, really. Look, you see, I got excited.
• 59:39
  I was like, yeah, tell me more. Let me actually go to my my
• 59:42
  questions really quick to give you a better understanding of
• 59:46
  that. This is so funny that I was
• 59:48
  really like, we're not gonna have a scholarly conversation is
• 59:51
  very much that, and I'm all in. It's a what I hope others can
• 59:55
  understand. I know there are certain things
• 59:57
  like coding and stuff like that, but you've been breaking it down
• 1:00:00
  with the themes and you know, so hopefully we're not losing too
• 1:00:03
  many folks. But who wants the people that
• 1:00:05
  want to listen? They don't listen.
• 1:00:07
  Yeah, I I pray so. Yeah, OK.
• 1:00:11
  And find this real quick. I do have a real question.
• 1:00:15
  How many pages is your dissertation?
• 1:00:19
  Have you have you counted the references and the the the
• 1:00:20
  appendices? Yep.
• 1:00:22
  All the full front to back it's. Like 300.
• 1:00:25
  Go ahead. Yeah, it's, it's, it's quite
• 1:00:29
  lengthy. All right, so the, the questions
• 1:00:33
  one, I'm giving you a sample. There was 2 sections of the
• 1:00:35
  questions. 1 was exploring physical punishment in different
• 1:00:39
  family structures and then navigating life after
• 1:00:44
  experiencing physical punishment.
• 1:00:45
  So I'll give you the first question, can you recall the
• 1:00:48
  first time you experienced physical punishment by an adult
• 1:00:51
  or a family member? Was it severe?
• 1:00:56
  And then in navigating life after experiencing physical
• 1:01:01
  punishment, I asked what is your conflict style?
• 1:01:07
  And do you see any any way corporal punishment impacted
• 1:01:10
  your your style? And that's an open question.
• 1:01:14
  You didn't even give them categories on conflict style.
• 1:01:17
  Oh. Oh, OK.
• 1:01:21
  Oh no. And again, in hindsight, I do
• 1:01:26
  sometimes feel like some of my questions I should have guided a
• 1:01:29
  little bit. More OK.
• 1:01:31
  Because I think a part of when you're dealing with individuals
• 1:01:34
  who have never really thought about, they've never
• 1:01:37
  conceptualized this is related to this.
• 1:01:41
  I probably should have guided a little bit more.
• 1:01:44
  I should have gave a little bit more.
• 1:01:47
  But you also wanted to get like rich data and let them.
• 1:01:51
  You don't want to guide their experiences and you miss
• 1:01:53
  something very valuable. I mean you could put it into
• 1:01:58
  styles after if you wanted to based on what they said.
• 1:02:02
  Right, right. It was, it was tough, the
• 1:02:04
  structural coding, for example, first encounters with corporal
• 1:02:09
  punishment. Now, ladies and gentlemen, just
• 1:02:12
  before I go forward this, this was not officially in my
• 1:02:15
  dissertation. It was part of the research that
• 1:02:18
  was found, but it wasn't in my dissertation.
• 1:02:20
  So this is actually going to be future research.
• 1:02:24
  So. One of the structures, yeah.
• 1:02:26
  So one of the structure earlier the structure code was early
• 1:02:29
  early childhood experiences, first encounters with corporal
• 1:02:31
  punishment. What was stated was most
• 1:02:33
  participants recall receiving corporal punishment from an
• 1:02:36
  early age, often before they fully understood why.
• 1:02:40
  Yes, that good old. Why?
• 1:02:44
  Why? Another, another area that I, I
• 1:02:49
  thought I thought these findings were, were, were very, very
• 1:02:53
  intriguing, but we, I just, it was recommended that I didn't
• 1:02:56
  touch on them for at this time. So let's talk a little bit about
• 1:03:00
  impact on decision making, OK, How how disciplinary experiences
• 1:03:05
  shape moral reasoning. Some participants linked their
• 1:03:08
  past punishments to improve decision making, while others
• 1:03:11
  felt encouraged compliance without understanding
• 1:03:14
  consequences. That falls into the the idea of
• 1:03:19
  corporal punishment is really good about immediate compliance,
• 1:03:22
  meaning that I don't have time to explain to you, you just do
• 1:03:24
  what the hell I told you to. Do.
• 1:03:26
  Yeah, because I said so. And that's why my, the title of
• 1:03:29
  my dissertation is called because I said so, you know,
• 1:03:34
  and, and, and it I don't, I don't know how many black folks
• 1:03:36
  will admit to this, but I have a suspicion that part of the
• 1:03:40
  reason why we show up in our adulthood and dismisses of when
• 1:03:44
  people question us is because of how we were raised.
• 1:03:46
  Yes, because we were dismissed. We weren't allowed to ask the
• 1:03:49
  questions. And so even if our minds were
• 1:03:53
  curious, like we don't know what that ends is because it got shut
• 1:03:57
  down. So for being curious, for all
• 1:03:59
  for wanting to know, and I love that you said that.
• 1:04:02
  But that also gets an attachment style, right?
• 1:04:06
  So these experiences, so we're talking about children, they
• 1:04:09
  said at an early age they didn't understand why.
• 1:04:12
  So we to me, that's extreme fear, right?
• 1:04:16
  There's physical pain. It wouldn't surprise me if the
• 1:04:19
  majority of these people had a disorganized attachment or a
• 1:04:23
  highly avoiding attachment style.
• 1:04:25
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:04:28
  Wait, let's go to a little bit of the cope.
• 1:04:30
  Let's go to the coping mechanisms that were that were.
• 1:04:33
  Yeah, that was one of the codes. OK, So how individuals dealt
• 1:04:35
  with discipline. Participants adopted various
• 1:04:38
  coping mechanisms, including avoidance, humor, compliance,
• 1:04:42
  and in some cases, internalized anger.
• 1:04:44
  Yep, and the body keeps score. That's right.
• 1:04:47
  It's only going to be so long before that cork pops with all
• 1:04:51
  that pressure building up. It was all there.
• 1:04:55
  It was all there. And so I found these themes and
• 1:05:01
  I said, well, I mean it's pretty on par.
• 1:05:04
  Now here's the other kicker about my study.
• 1:05:07
  Because of the limited number and as well as some of the
• 1:05:12
  limitations of the study. These.
• 1:05:15
  These findings, yeah, they're they're not generalizable.
• 1:05:18
  However, they do serve as indication of what could be
• 1:05:21
  generalizable to the larger population of African American
• 1:05:24
  men. And granted, I didn't even, we
• 1:05:26
  didn't really even get to the other associated outcomes that
• 1:05:32
  have been found in other literature around corporal
• 1:05:34
  punishment. For example, when it comes to
• 1:05:36
  like health, Like for example, there's a, there's a, there was
• 1:05:39
  a study in China, large, large study that there, there was an
• 1:05:44
  association between smoking secession and those who had
• 1:05:47
  experienced corporal punishment growing up as kids, as well as
• 1:05:51
  high blood pressure and heart disease.
• 1:05:54
  And so in my, my literature review, I wrote, I said, well,
• 1:05:58
  if this is considering that China, for the most part, not as
• 1:06:02
  much as it used to be, but it's a country like China, which is
• 1:06:05
  typically homogeneous society for the most part, the majority
• 1:06:10
  of folks there are one in the same.
• 1:06:12
  And this that that was their health impact.
• 1:06:17
  Surely if we look at African Americans, particularly African
• 1:06:21
  American men, Yep. And we look at and they and
• 1:06:23
  they, they said some of the three of the main things that we
• 1:06:26
  experience. Yeah.
• 1:06:29
  Surely there's there's some association and I, I didn't, I
• 1:06:33
  didn't even touch on. That right, There's so much here
• 1:06:35
  I didn't even touch on that. You know what I'm hearing as I'm
• 1:06:38
  listening to this and when you're talking about how it's
• 1:06:40
  not generalizable, I think this could be a great, if you wanted
• 1:06:44
  to continue this, this is where you could do a quantitative
• 1:06:47
  study. You have a basis where you can
• 1:06:48
  use that to form your questions, a survey, a gang of people and
• 1:06:51
  get more responses. And just, yeah, this is this is
• 1:06:55
  good. It's a lot.
• 1:06:57
  It's a lot that I that could be done.
• 1:06:59
  I'm trying to figure out what's the best.
• 1:07:01
  I know I that definitely I definitely want to go into the
• 1:07:04
  Quan space. I want to do a content analysis
• 1:07:06
  of the you don't know. I was talking about like
• 1:07:10
  comedians or different people talking about us, talking about
• 1:07:13
  corporal punishment and finding the themes and what gets said in
• 1:07:16
  that. Well that's that's you can just
• 1:07:18
  do 11 comedian and you'll find a lot of some of them.
• 1:07:22
  They have themes because I'm I on Kevin Hart has made a career
• 1:07:26
  off of talking about his experiences like with his mother
• 1:07:31
  and his father or his father than anybody.
• 1:07:35
  Yeah, I'm like, yeah, that was the whole thing.
• 1:07:39
  Like if you go back or you could do a series, if you went back
• 1:07:42
  and did Def Comedy Jam or Comic View, you're gonna hear it all
• 1:07:48
  through there. So yeah, that that's another way
• 1:07:50
  to narrow it down. And that's that's fun.
• 1:07:53
  That's a fun way to do some research.
• 1:07:55
  Yeah, Yeah. So I mean, I, there's a number
• 1:07:58
  of ideas that I'm, I'm, I'm brewing and.
• 1:08:00
  Cooking well, just write them down.
• 1:08:01
  You can't do them all at once and you need a break bro.
• 1:08:05
  I I do. Like for real?
• 1:08:07
  Because I was like that doctorate work is.
• 1:08:11
  No joke. It's no joke.
• 1:08:13
  I'm trying to remember the moment where I felt normal.
• 1:08:16
  I know I finished December 23. I don't think maybe I started to
• 1:08:23
  feel normal, maybe to like August 24 or something.
• 1:08:28
  Maybe. Like I really don't even know.
• 1:08:34
  This is such a doctor. Program.
• 1:08:35
  Listen, that's a whole other story.
• 1:08:37
  I started in 2015, so I went from the Masters right into the
• 1:08:42
  PhD here at Howard. But a lot of stuff happened.
• 1:08:47
  I took a year off. I was going through so much
• 1:08:51
  grief that I even had to slow down my coursework before I took
• 1:08:55
  my year off because I was like, it's going to show up in my
• 1:08:58
  grades and I was like, I'm not about to fill out of this
• 1:09:01
  program. So then it's like it put me a
• 1:09:03
  year behind for certain classes and then I took the year off.
• 1:09:08
  Then I was dragging my feet because I was up in my head
• 1:09:11
  about the dissertation for so long.
• 1:09:13
  And I was like, once I really like released it, everything
• 1:09:17
  just started rolling like fast. And I was like, girl, you could
• 1:09:19
  have been there like 2 years ago, years ago.
• 1:09:22
  But yes, I started in 2015. So it was, it was quite the
• 1:09:27
  journey. I did have to even get an
• 1:09:29
  extension. And so like this journey.
• 1:09:31
  And I think, you know, since we're having kind of like this
• 1:09:33
  conversation for anybody that's listening that might be
• 1:09:36
  interested in pursuing the doctorate, like this is
• 1:09:41
  different, like less than 2% of the population like in, in, in
• 1:09:46
  the US. And then it's like less than
• 1:09:49
  it's similar in the world too. And then when you put in on
• 1:09:53
  African Americans, I don't know the statistic off the top of my
• 1:09:56
  head, it's definitely at the road less traveled and.
• 1:10:02
  I forget how rare we are. I people say you're not rare.
• 1:10:05
  I was like. But when you're at Howard, where
• 1:10:07
  you're at Morgan, like in the HBCU community where Howard is
• 1:10:11
  one of the largest producers of pH, DS, doctors, attorneys, like
• 1:10:15
  all of these professionals, that is normalized where we are.
• 1:10:19
  But This is why we thrive here, right?
• 1:10:21
  Like if we could talk about the research we want to talk about.
• 1:10:24
  Can you imagine trying to do this research at a PITA, finding
• 1:10:30
  an advisor to support it? Right.
• 1:10:38
  So this, it is, it's, it's normalized when you're in the
• 1:10:42
  community. But we, we're outliers in the
• 1:10:45
  larger community. Like for real, we, we, we're,
• 1:10:48
  we're, we're unicorns. We're black unicorns.
• 1:10:52
  I mean, my, my chair had me right in a way.
• 1:10:57
  The scholarship can't be denied, but it is very, it's very
• 1:11:00
  tedious to read. What I mean by that is I'm just
• 1:11:04
  being real. Most people I tell, I was like,
• 1:11:06
  well, what do you, what should I read?
• 1:11:07
  I said you need to read, you should read chapter 1 and you
• 1:11:10
  should go to the you should go to chapter 4 and five.
• 1:11:14
  If you go, if you go into the weeds of my literature review,
• 1:11:17
  you're going to be, you're going to be there for a while.
• 1:11:19
  So you basically said try me if you want to.
• 1:11:22
  I did my homework. Yeah, because like my, my
• 1:11:25
  dissertation is also a history lesson of, of the history of
• 1:11:30
  quantitative research as well as, as well as qualitative
• 1:11:33
  before we even get to like, oh, we told.
• 1:11:36
  And the the reason why because he wanted to sure.
• 1:11:38
  Like, you know, this, this document is going to reflect
• 1:11:40
  they're going to question your scholarship.
• 1:11:42
  So I was like, OK and so. Yeah, it's a lot.
• 1:11:48
  I'm just glad. I'm glad you're on the other
• 1:11:50
  side. Yin tax.
• 1:11:55
  What are you planning to do for self-care for you and this is
• 1:12:01
  and you know what, it's deeper than self-care because
• 1:12:03
  self-care, I hope is what got you through as much as what are
• 1:12:07
  you about to do for rejuvenation because you still I'm hearing
• 1:12:13
  the research is not going to stop.
• 1:12:16
  Besides working out and talking to people and therapy, I'm not
• 1:12:21
  quite sure yet. We can't think of you a plan
• 1:12:23
  together, friend, because you not.
• 1:12:28
  Sure, yet. OK, that's that's a a topic for
• 1:12:32
  another episode, right? Because like there.
• 1:12:34
  Are parts of it like I'm involved in church?
• 1:12:37
  Those are all regular maintenance.
• 1:12:39
  I'm hearing maintenance, right? That's what I think I.
• 1:12:44
  Think a part, I think a healthy part of the the self-care
• 1:12:47
  journey is admit that I don't have a there's certain parts of
• 1:12:50
  it. I don't I'm not sure about it.
• 1:12:51
  I don't know. I've been in this state for so
• 1:12:54
  long. But and coming out of it, that's
• 1:12:57
  why I say, we'll, we'll talk 'cause you, you gotta do
• 1:13:00
  something because like what? And like you have your life
• 1:13:04
  back. You have your life back.
• 1:13:08
  Like when people have come to me and asked me, Jeannie, I wanna
• 1:13:12
  do a PhD. Like what advice?
• 1:13:13
  And I'll be like what? You willing to give up?
• 1:13:17
  That's the first thing. What are you willing to give up?
• 1:13:21
  When when you are when you were on the wall, did you have to
• 1:13:23
  learn if. I don't think so.
• 1:13:28
  There's a line and if the things that you gave your life to and
• 1:13:34
  you, you were in your PhD program as long as I was and you
• 1:13:38
  did A8 year stint and so much happened in that, in that AE.
• 1:13:42
  Yep. And.
• 1:13:46
  Remembering like I got one of those boards, see, now we're
• 1:13:49
  talking about we're shifting a little bit, right?
• 1:13:51
  Like to the underside of like the doctoral journey and maybe
• 1:13:54
  we can't do another. Have you back again to talk more
• 1:13:57
  about this? Because I do want to kind of
• 1:13:59
  like wrap up and bring out the like, you know, what can we do
• 1:14:02
  differently? Back on topic, but I had to put
• 1:14:04
  up this board, you know, where you can change the letters and I
• 1:14:07
  had it and I posted it wherever I could still so I could always
• 1:14:10
  see it every day. Remember why you started.
• 1:14:13
  There were so many times that is it would have been easy to be
• 1:14:16
  like, whatever. But then I'm like, yo, I put in
• 1:14:18
  so many years, like cannot just like walk away from this either.
• 1:14:25
  Didn't really want to as much as that Life kept challenging me.
• 1:14:30
  Like life was dragging me at one point.
• 1:14:32
  Yeah. And the wind was just showing up
• 1:14:35
  in the places. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:42
  And it's hard to, it's hard to to be able to be present and to
• 1:14:52
  be able to formulate, synthesize, articulate thought
• 1:14:57
  when you're being pulled in so many other direct directions.
• 1:15:02
  You're not grounded enough to to come to those.
• 1:15:05
  Yeah. Conclusions, it thought.
• 1:15:08
  Thoughtful conclusions. Yeah, in.
• 1:15:09
  Other words, it's hard for you to be thoughtful when you're
• 1:15:14
  always in. Your thoughts are complete.
• 1:15:16
  Five moments of stress As hard, as hard as you know.
• 1:15:20
  Some people argue that this is this probably the worst paper
• 1:15:24
  you will write. Yes, I've heard that too.
• 1:15:27
  And that's related to that. But that's the idea, like your
• 1:15:31
  scholarship is supposed to continue, right?
• 1:15:33
  So this is just your introduction.
• 1:15:36
  It's not necessarily like, you know, the music.
• 1:15:38
  Well, no, I was gonna say it's not like the music industry for
• 1:15:41
  some people, like where they're everything gets better for their
• 1:15:43
  first album, but some people, it doesn't get better than their
• 1:15:45
  first album. But yeah, So I think maybe if
• 1:15:50
  you'd be open, we could come back and do another episode.
• 1:15:53
  Maybe this could be more of a panel call with other people,
• 1:15:57
  like getting to the other side and like, surviving the journey.
• 1:16:03
  I don't even know if journey is the word the whole thing.
• 1:16:07
  Yeah, like it's it's it's a thing like, but I digress.
• 1:16:13
  Bringing us back to today's topic in your actual like
• 1:16:16
  research last like just kind of shift in the were were were
• 1:16:21
  there any other high points you wanted to bring out before I
• 1:16:25
  shipped us into the next phase? Recommended.
• 1:16:28
  Probably more more the recommendations.
• 1:16:31
  That's what I was trying to say. What can we do differently,
• 1:16:33
  right? So I think we're moving in the
• 1:16:34
  right direction. So go ahead.
• 1:16:37
  So one of the things that I talked about was that there were
• 1:16:42
  forgot which researcher did it. But in sociology, it was a
• 1:16:45
  sociologist I think in the late 70s that coined 4 extra
• 1:16:50
  parenting styles to appropriate to appropriately describe how
• 1:16:57
  African Americans parent. One of them was no nonsense
• 1:17:00
  parenting. You familiar?
• 1:17:03
  I lived it. Right.
• 1:17:06
  And it's right. So, and one of my
• 1:17:08
  recommendations is that I think that African Americans who are
• 1:17:15
  interested in parenting their kids different should look to
• 1:17:19
  have a combination of no nonsense parenting absent of the
• 1:17:22
  corporal punishment, but includes the practices from the
• 1:17:25
  book of the conscious parent, which is leans on the idea of,
• 1:17:28
  of heavy emotional, emotional intelligence and regulation
• 1:17:33
  practices to ensure that their children can, can become more
• 1:17:37
  well-rounded in their ability to show up as human beings, but to
• 1:17:42
  express their emotion, but particularly African American,
• 1:17:45
  African American men. And so I recommend that we
• 1:17:49
  actually do the research. I think one of the laziest
• 1:17:51
  comments that I've heard from a lot of parents is that they
• 1:17:54
  don't, they don't, they don't teach you how to, you know, they
• 1:17:58
  don't teach you how to be a parent in the sense of like you
• 1:18:00
  can't find in the book. And that's not true.
• 1:18:03
  There's, there's plenty of research.
• 1:18:05
  Now, if it doesn't feel applicable, that's that's a
• 1:18:07
  different conversation. But there's been plenty of
• 1:18:10
  research about parenting and it kind of it kind of lends into
• 1:18:14
  the idea that especially, you know, we probably could make
• 1:18:17
  this critique to the generation of our parents, but we
• 1:18:20
  definitely can't say it now. But for a generation of people
• 1:18:24
  who are really big about the word intentional, you know, it
• 1:18:30
  wouldn't hurt for us to just read up on some other some other
• 1:18:35
  thoughts, some other strategies around around this.
• 1:18:38
  And that recommendation is that it still needs to be culturally
• 1:18:40
  grounded. Their firmness for black boys
• 1:18:43
  navigating a environment that does not view their humanity the
• 1:18:47
  same concept is still very much so necessary.
• 1:18:49
  I'm just saying that we don't have to beat our kids to get
• 1:18:52
  that point across. And the one in the ways that I
• 1:18:53
  know that to be true is that if your child grows up in sports or
• 1:18:57
  goes to a black school, they don't get hit unless you permit
• 1:19:01
  that aim to steal. You know, I'm saying like that
• 1:19:05
  they learn discipline there. So why is it that at home?
• 1:19:10
  But sometimes it's languish though, and those, those are
• 1:19:16
  invisible, right? The words.
• 1:19:17
  We don't know what happens when they take the words in.
• 1:19:21
  So that's one of my biggest recommendations and I have
• 1:19:24
  recommendations for other research as well.
• 1:19:27
  And even if people aren't big researchers or scholarly, like,
• 1:19:31
  you know, we can digest the article like it's nothing,
• 1:19:34
  right? But like there's so much
• 1:19:36
  information that's out there and people that aren't like you,
• 1:19:40
  right? And this podcast is an
• 1:19:42
  opportunity for you to put it out there.
• 1:19:44
  So if you can't give recommendations, but also like
• 1:19:48
  by having this discussion, if there's so people think social
• 1:19:52
  media is bad, let me slow down. Almost anything you want to read
• 1:19:57
  about or learn about, all you got to do is search it.
• 1:20:02
  If somebody talking about it now you can find people that
• 1:20:06
  reinforce your views, but then you can also find people that
• 1:20:09
  are going to challenge you for growth.
• 1:20:11
  And why is it like and if you know you have a gap, go get the
• 1:20:14
  information and a lot of people, they can tell you more about
• 1:20:17
  what famous people are doing then investing in their own
• 1:20:23
  selves, their children. How to treat their children.
• 1:20:27
  And it's like you need to invest.
• 1:20:30
  It's worth it. So you don't know so well, I
• 1:20:33
  don't know what to start. We got Google, we have
• 1:20:34
  smartphone, You can ask almost anything.
• 1:20:40
  You just have to be willing. And so I'm not saying that with
• 1:20:43
  judgment as much as encouragement.
• 1:20:45
  So if you don't know where to begin.
• 1:20:49
  I mean, but that the desire has to be there and it can't be
• 1:20:53
  something, it can't be about entertaining you.
• 1:20:56
  This is not going to necessarily be entertaining, but you, yeah,
• 1:20:58
  you have to be invested. Yeah, and that, and that's
• 1:21:01
  simply what it is. This is a new skill.
• 1:21:04
  This is a new way. And I do, like I said, I think
• 1:21:06
  it's revolutionary in the sense that, you know, we talk about
• 1:21:08
  you, you teach people how to treat you.
• 1:21:10
  If we if we, if we develop a community where we say, you
• 1:21:16
  know, we, we no longer hit our kids, that's going to resound
• 1:21:19
  differently when violent crimes against us happen because it's
• 1:21:23
  like, well, no, we don't treat, you know it.
• 1:21:25
  You ever notice when a parent or or or a child ever said it may
• 1:21:29
  have been you or anybody for that matter, said my own Mama
• 1:21:32
  don't hit me or my Yeah. Right, so my own Mama don't do
• 1:21:37
  that, so I'm not going to let you.
• 1:21:39
  Exactly, exactly. That probably should be the
• 1:21:42
  next. Yeah, and.
• 1:21:44
  Your titles are catchy, but what you're talking about is Co
• 1:21:49
  regulation, which leads to self regulation.
• 1:21:52
  And so for for our audience, Co regulation is like when you're a
• 1:21:56
  child. This goes in with attachment
• 1:21:58
  too, right? When you're a child, how
• 1:22:00
  attentive your caregivers are to your needs, but like when you're
• 1:22:04
  having a difficult time, them coming with you, being sensitive
• 1:22:09
  to what you need or just even being present, right?
• 1:22:12
  Not trying to shut you down, not trying to silence you, helping
• 1:22:16
  to soothe you. So by them doing that, it's
• 1:22:20
  teaching you the child how to soothe.
• 1:22:23
  But a lot of people don't do that.
• 1:22:25
  Kids are crying and they'd be like, go sit down, go to your
• 1:22:28
  room like and they are sent to go deal with these big emotions
• 1:22:33
  on their own and no one's talking to them about it, how to
• 1:22:36
  understand it. So then they grow up and they
• 1:22:40
  act the fool for lack of a better way to put it and people
• 1:22:43
  are like well what's wrong with them?
• 1:22:44
  They never experienced Co regulation to know what self
• 1:22:48
  regulation looks like or they saw their parents or experienced
• 1:22:52
  their parents go up on them, go up on people.
• 1:22:55
  They just pop off and that becomes a badge of honor instead
• 1:22:59
  of having the time to just be present with the kid.
• 1:23:02
  Like and I think some people it's uncomfortable, but if a
• 1:23:05
  parent hasn't experienced Co regulation to self regulate, a
• 1:23:09
  kid is going to adapt based on what that parent does and does
• 1:23:12
  not have and in this case does not have.
• 1:23:14
  But what is it with then it's replaced with this negativity,
• 1:23:18
  this aggression, all these things.
• 1:23:20
  So the kid is taking all this stuff in.
• 1:23:22
  And so it is intergenerational. What a lot of this is.
• 1:23:26
  So when you said like one of the most revolutionary things that
• 1:23:29
  we can do, it's a really. And no, I'm not, I'm not a
• 1:23:33
  parent for any listeners. However, I do have a lot of
• 1:23:36
  experience working with families, particularly with
• 1:23:39
  adolescent children and their families to build these
• 1:23:43
  connections so that they can have healthier relationships.
• 1:23:46
  And these were adolescents who had more acute mental health
• 1:23:50
  issues with histories of self harm attempts, you know, non
• 1:23:55
  fatal suicidal behavior. Like really, really detrimental
• 1:23:59
  things, right? And seeing these families
• 1:24:03
  breaking these concepts down and just really seeing the unity and
• 1:24:07
  how they're able to attune to what the needs are of the kid.
• 1:24:10
  Not what's bothering me. I don't have it to deal with
• 1:24:14
  you, right? Because this leaves imprints and
• 1:24:17
  people take these into their friendships and relationships
• 1:24:20
  and then they end up in these unhealthy relationships and or
• 1:24:24
  abusive relationships or high toxicity because that core
• 1:24:29
  relationship wasn't there. So this means the parent has to
• 1:24:34
  be willing to engage in their own healing and a family can
• 1:24:39
  heal together. But sometimes in the in the
• 1:24:42
  instance if this child had never had this severe mental health,
• 1:24:46
  some of them it was an episode, right?
• 1:24:49
  But if they hadn't had this severe thing, it would not have
• 1:24:53
  caused the family to seek out healing.
• 1:24:55
  They would have kept functioning and the way that they had that
• 1:24:58
  was causing all of this stress and this tension.
• 1:25:01
  And not always because sometimes there were other factors, right?
• 1:25:04
  We know how mental health is very unique for the individual.
• 1:25:08
  But that Co regulation and that teaches a kid to self regulate.
• 1:25:14
  Because if you if you show me an angry person, you're showing me
• 1:25:19
  a child who did not have their needs met, who did not
• 1:25:21
  experience Co regulation. 9 times out of 10, I think that's
• 1:25:24
  not a real statistic. But yeah, yes.
• 1:25:31
  And we need those healing conversations between
• 1:25:33
  generations. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:25:37
  I mean, I, I agree it was very interesting to at my, at my
• 1:25:41
  dissertation defense, I can humbly and and proudly say that
• 1:25:47
  there was like over 67 people that showed up.
• 1:25:49
  That is amazing. Yeah, virtually.
• 1:25:53
  Virtually, yeah, they showed up, yeah.
• 1:25:54
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. They showed up and that
• 1:25:58
  consisted of a lot of different age ages, Yeah, demographic.
• 1:26:03
  Excellent, and your research reflects that too.
• 1:26:07
  Yeah, it was. It was interesting to hear the
• 1:26:09
  responses of it was sparking a lot of conversations and.
• 1:26:13
  Yeah. It was funny, I wanted that, but
• 1:26:16
  it was funny, funny 'cause it it definitely turned into lightning
• 1:26:19
  round. OK.
• 1:26:21
  Which is, I mean, it's a part of it.
• 1:26:23
  I, I said I wanted to smoke because I and I, if this is a
• 1:26:26
  community issue, yeah, it's a community.
• 1:26:29
  Issue you, you prepare for this, yeah.
• 1:26:33
  So what would you say is one or two of the most the questions
• 1:26:41
  that resonated the most with you from but you got from the
• 1:26:45
  lightning round? Yeah, from the defense.
• 1:26:49
  So hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 1:26:50
  Let's back up, right, Because we got to break down the people so
• 1:26:53
  that they understand what happens, right.
• 1:26:55
  So when you are writing a dissertation, right?
• 1:26:58
  This is what is called that's like you're, it's not, it's
• 1:27:03
  like, OK, if your undergrad, this will be like a capstone
• 1:27:05
  paper, right? Or your thesis if you're in a
• 1:27:09
  master's program. But with those, you just get to
• 1:27:12
  write the paper, be done with it.
• 1:27:13
  Your teacher grades it. There's a whole process to even
• 1:27:16
  get to writing a dissertation. You have to propose it.
• 1:27:20
  You have to put together your first 3 chapters.
• 1:27:24
  So that's like, kind of like your background history
• 1:27:26
  justifying why this is a good relevant study.
• 1:27:29
  Then you have the literature review and then your methods,
• 1:27:31
  you have to propose and defend this to a committee and they
• 1:27:35
  say, yes, this is solid, go forth or no do or it's a yes
• 1:27:41
  with revisions, right? And you go forth, you get AIRB
• 1:27:46
  process. That's a whole other thing, the
• 1:27:48
  institutional research board. So it has to get cleared.
• 1:27:51
  And in this case, he used human subjects, right?
• 1:27:53
  So it had to be clear. So there's extra rigor that goes
• 1:27:57
  into getting approved to do that.
• 1:27:59
  So you do that, you get approved.
• 1:28:01
  That could take months. I've heard people say that it's
• 1:28:03
  taking a whole year or longer for them to even get that
• 1:28:06
  approval, which can significantly delay your time in
• 1:28:08
  the program. So you get all of that.
• 1:28:11
  So you defended your proposal, you got your IRB approval.
• 1:28:15
  Now you're free to go forth and collect your data and study,
• 1:28:18
  right? So then you take, you get all
• 1:28:20
  the data, you analyze it, and then you write this big paper.
• 1:28:25
  As if that's not enough, you then have to put this together.
• 1:28:29
  I don't know about you, but at Howard, we had like a like 1520
• 1:28:32
  minutes to talk about this big old topic that we've been
• 1:28:36
  working on for years to hit the high points.
• 1:28:41
  I was like, what? Because you're trying to prove
• 1:28:45
  that you know all the stuff and then, yeah, you got to cut it
• 1:28:48
  down. That's why they run through is
• 1:28:50
  important. So then you present it and then
• 1:28:53
  you have to defend it. You have to be able to stand on
• 1:28:56
  business. The beauty of it, Khalil, and I
• 1:28:59
  don't know if anyone told you this or affirmed you in this
• 1:29:03
  way. The proposal defense part is the
• 1:29:06
  most difficult because you are submitting this to people who
• 1:29:12
  are already like scholarly, right?
• 1:29:14
  You're trying to get them to say that this is a worthy study,
• 1:29:17
  your method is correct and all of that.
• 1:29:19
  But once you get to the other side, that's your research.
• 1:29:22
  You are now the expert. Can't nobody really tell you
• 1:29:26
  nothing about it. You just got to be able to know
• 1:29:29
  your data, answer the questions. And so I was fortunate to have
• 1:29:33
  Doctor Sandra Edmonds crew as my advisor.
• 1:29:36
  She's former Dean of the Howard University School of Social
• 1:29:39
  Worker, Dean emeritus. And she reminded me of that once
• 1:29:43
  I defended my proposal. She said you got the hardest
• 1:29:45
  part out of the way. She said you are now going to be
• 1:29:48
  the expert on this. This is your original research.
• 1:29:53
  You just got to know your research to answer the
• 1:29:55
  questions. So you walk in there as the
• 1:29:57
  expert and I realizing you the expert sometimes if no one told
• 1:30:01
  you because that was a game changer for me.
• 1:30:05
  So you go, you get this lightning round.
• 1:30:07
  You're defending your original research at this point.
• 1:30:10
  So what were two of those key questions that resonated or
• 1:30:14
  things that really came out of it that you're like, man.
• 1:30:19
  It's funny, one of them was from the audience, one of my
• 1:30:21
  classmates, she asked me. She was like, what was the
• 1:30:23
  finding that surprised you? Yeah, I want to know that too,
• 1:30:27
  actually. That's a good one.
• 1:30:30
  When the camera was taken off and the interview was over with.
• 1:30:37
  So you also recorded these two. They were video.
• 1:30:41
  OK, that's important to know. Oh, 'cause even if you'd like
• 1:30:44
  analyze body language, oh, that's a whole other thing.
• 1:30:48
  Yeah. Definitely.
• 1:30:49
  And that caught my attention because, you know, I do
• 1:30:51
  telehealth, so I read a lot in the face, yeah.
• 1:30:56
  Yeah. So people were more candid about
• 1:31:00
  their situations. There was still a lot of
• 1:31:02
  protecting the idea of their parents from a, you know,
• 1:31:07
  respective politic respect. Yeah.
• 1:31:11
  And you can hear it in the subtleties.
• 1:31:14
  Either they wouldn't tell the full truth of what happened
• 1:31:16
  until after, or they would say the thing that would be
• 1:31:20
  considered like, oh, that's horrible.
• 1:31:21
  And be like, oh, I love my. Yeah, I, I mean, I love my mom,
• 1:31:25
  but or like, my mom is, you know, she's the best person in
• 1:31:28
  the world and then they say this awful thing.
• 1:31:30
  Yeah, it didn't change what they that what that what they did in
• 1:31:33
  that moment, but period. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:31:37
  Excuse my friends, but that's I mean.
• 1:31:39
  I was like, that's yeah, hey. You know what I'm saying?
• 1:31:43
  I think, I think we need to learn how.
• 1:31:45
  And I know it's easier said than done, but we need to learn to
• 1:31:48
  have space for the both and, you know.
• 1:31:50
  The aunts are human. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
• 1:31:53
  Our parents were human. They made mistakes.
• 1:31:55
  And some of the mistakes, mistakes they made on our behalf
• 1:31:58
  was severely impactful and damaging and.
• 1:32:01
  We don't see there needs to be space for.
• 1:32:03
  We're not judging them for that. Yeah, You know, and I tell
• 1:32:05
  clients this all the time when I'm doing attachment theory with
• 1:32:08
  them and like having them do an attachment style like quiz.
• 1:32:11
  This is not about judging your parents.
• 1:32:13
  This is about your lived experience.
• 1:32:16
  Yeah, yeah 'cause that's hard for people.
• 1:32:19
  But to assess that is the judge because you know, to judges is
• 1:32:22
  to say something was wrong with it to.
• 1:32:24
  Some people. But I did the best that I could.
• 1:32:26
  To some people, but it's not because we're talking about you.
• 1:32:28
  So I, I removed that. So it's focused more on them by
• 1:32:31
  understanding the origin and that your parents are flawed,
• 1:32:35
  right? Like, so I try to frame it in a
• 1:32:37
  way so that they can focus on self, but also give them that
• 1:32:40
  pass, right, Because I know we're, we're programmed.
• 1:32:43
  Don't say something about my Mama, say something right like
• 1:32:48
  that. That's a whole thing right
• 1:32:49
  there. And we can't even hear the
• 1:32:52
  honesty. We can't even be honest about
• 1:32:54
  the experiences we have some. I think that comes from and,
• 1:32:59
  and, and it's, again, this is going to be, I hope that our
• 1:33:01
  generation is better about this is that a lot of families, and I
• 1:33:06
  think this goes even outside of our, our culture, but
• 1:33:10
  particularly in our culture, is that we raise our children to
• 1:33:16
  view parents as demigod. It's and it's a problem because
• 1:33:24
  how can I hold a demigod accountable?
• 1:33:26
  It's one of the reasons why is and I relate that that to one of
• 1:33:29
  the problems that a lot of millennials and a lot of gens
• 1:33:31
  ears and Alpha had a problem that the why there was such an
• 1:33:34
  exodus with the church is because, well, if I can't have a
• 1:33:36
  real relationship, if I can't, if I can't be accountable, if I
• 1:33:40
  can't express in one of your other podcasts you there's a
• 1:33:44
  snippet when you're talking about this with the.
• 1:33:46
  Gentleman. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:33:47
  Yeah, like I how can I have a relation relationship?
• 1:33:50
  It's the same context with parents.
• 1:33:52
  It's like I see your shit but I can't acknowledge your shit.
• 1:33:57
  You, you just lose with the language today.
• 1:33:59
  Go ahead, you. Know I'm just, you know, I'm,
• 1:34:04
  you know, I'm just, but I'm speaking and speaking honestly.
• 1:34:06
  I see it, but I can't I I can't acknowledge it.
• 1:34:11
  Right. I can't acknowledge it, but I'm
• 1:34:14
  supposed to Revere you based off this idea of what you are, not
• 1:34:17
  who you really are. It's, listen, I was in a session
• 1:34:20
  with a client and we were kind of talking about that.
• 1:34:22
  I said essentially, you grew up in the House of hypocrisy.
• 1:34:25
  Absolutely you as I. Do as I say, not as I do.
• 1:34:29
  We're telling you kids don't be a hypocrite, but then we're
• 1:34:31
  telling them be a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite.
• 1:34:34
  That's right. And don't question it.
• 1:34:37
  That's right. So it, it, it they OK that you
• 1:34:40
  know that. Again, people say, you know,
• 1:34:42
  well, Doctor Green, why are you doing this research in my
• 1:34:44
  tombstone? It will read Doctor Green taught
• 1:34:47
  us how to be accountable. And this is what this is really
• 1:34:49
  about. We, we can as black folks, we
• 1:34:53
  cannot talk about any other culture being accountable to our
• 1:34:57
  oppression until we are accountable to our oppression.
• 1:35:01
  We, we must look at how we are impacting each other.
• 1:35:05
  And so again, this is just one example of that.
• 1:35:09
  My hope is that, as Nod says, more conscious how we raise our
• 1:35:13
  daughters, more conscious of how we raise each other, just
• 1:35:16
  period. So, you know, go ahead.
• 1:35:19
  Don't. Know you about well, you I was.
• 1:35:21
  Going to say, because I know we could keep going the second one,
• 1:35:24
  right? What was the second thing from
• 1:35:25
  your dissertation like the questioning, the lightning round
• 1:35:28
  that stood out to you? What?
• 1:35:30
  Was another memorable question. Or.
• 1:35:33
  Even that the back and forth about me defining masculinity,
• 1:35:39
  my chair and I have gone back and forth about that and it came
• 1:35:42
  out in the in the defense it it got it caught the attention of a
• 1:35:47
  lot of people. He he has a genuine concern.
• 1:35:55
  His concern is around not being black balls.
• 1:36:00
  OK. Aiding sustaining masculinity in
• 1:36:05
  a way that could be maybe dismissive of other people's
• 1:36:10
  presentations, which is not that at all.
• 1:36:12
  It's not. It's not that at all.
• 1:36:13
  It is more so about what is it in the context of this study.
• 1:36:18
  OK, that's fair. But that was definitely a
• 1:36:22
  moment, something, if I can say, not a question, but something
• 1:36:25
  that stood out. It was a moment moment that the
• 1:36:28
  moment I defended was really a moment where all this time me
• 1:36:33
  attempting to explain this the the why this topic was so
• 1:36:38
  important. It came.
• 1:36:41
  It came because it wasn't just being understood amongst the the
• 1:36:47
  four of my committee, but also the 67 people who maybe in past
• 1:36:55
  and heard me talk about this, but more so for the first time
• 1:37:00
  was really getting a chance to hear me presented in this way.
• 1:37:03
  And it didn't go over anybody's head.
• 1:37:05
  It was it was very man, that that's that's I honestly the
• 1:37:09
  thing that I'm most proud of. Yeah.
• 1:37:12
  Yeah. My our people hurt.
• 1:37:14
  'Cause that, that that was why you did it.
• 1:37:16
  Like, yes, you are in the ivory tower, right, of academics.
• 1:37:21
  And when I think our research we have, yes, we're writing to each
• 1:37:26
  other, right? Because we are showing that we
• 1:37:28
  what we've learned and like, you know, the academic rigor, but if
• 1:37:34
  it can't be used or can't be consumed by the everyday person.
• 1:37:40
  It's useless. Yeah.
• 1:37:41
  But what good is it really? OK, it's useless.
• 1:37:45
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:37:46
  So to kind of wrap us up here, what do you think at breaking
• 1:37:52
  the cycle? Like what would bringing the
• 1:37:54
  cycle actually look like in real life without shame or blame?
• 1:37:59
  When we talk about corporal punishment in the impact that
• 1:38:02
  it's have, it has African American men or black men.
• 1:38:06
  Repeat that question one more time.
• 1:38:07
  So what would breaking the cycle, right, look like in real
• 1:38:11
  life without shame or blame when we think about corporal
• 1:38:16
  punishment and the impact that it has on black men?
• 1:38:19
  And I was going to say, obviously there's a trickle down
• 1:38:21
  from it, right? But So what would it just look
• 1:38:23
  like without blame or shame when we think about that to break the
• 1:38:27
  cycle, those negative impact? I think what it would look like
• 1:38:32
  is that before the parents could do the work with with the kids,
• 1:38:35
  a lot of parents would have to first do the work with
• 1:38:37
  themselves. That's it and.
• 1:38:39
  And that's a soul, that's a social, social, emotional, but
• 1:38:42
  as well as physical experience, experience or demand as well.
• 1:38:46
  And the reason why I say that is because some kids get get
• 1:38:49
  whooped. Not not because they're bad, but
• 1:38:51
  simply because their parents are out of shape.
• 1:38:53
  Emotionally. Emotionally and physically.
• 1:38:57
  OK. What what I mean is that their
• 1:39:01
  parents who whoop their kids because they don't have the
• 1:39:04
  energy to really play active parent.
• 1:39:11
  There's there's a pocket. Of that, yeah.
• 1:39:12
  But I was going to say, what's wild about that is that it takes
• 1:39:14
  energy to do the corporal punishment.
• 1:39:17
  Yeah, it it does. But you know that that seems to
• 1:39:19
  be that. That seems to be cathartic.
• 1:39:22
  Which is not what you should be doing.
• 1:39:24
  You should not be working out your stress on your kids.
• 1:39:27
  Yeah. It's a, it's a definite thing
• 1:39:30
  for sure, you know, So I, I think it's that, that would be
• 1:39:34
  the, the, the biggest thing, you know, the, one of the first
• 1:39:40
  words that everybody named Mama liked to say now is, you know,
• 1:39:43
  generational wealth. You know what about generational
• 1:39:45
  wealth? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:39:49
  This is about Wellness. Yeah, this really is a this is
• 1:39:51
  about Wellness. I am concerned about the
• 1:39:53
  Wellness of our people. And so I am.
• 1:39:57
  I am making this argument because we are still not well.
• 1:40:01
  We are in due process, but we are not well in until we start
• 1:40:04
  having these intimate conversations about what makes
• 1:40:07
  us us, we going to struggle a bit and and money is not going
• 1:40:10
  to resolve the deeper issues we we have.
• 1:40:12
  We have seen a number of famous people that once they got once
• 1:40:17
  their their. Trauma, them acting up with
• 1:40:18
  trauma. We just gave them more resources
• 1:40:21
  to be more traumatic and traumatize others.
• 1:40:25
  And then secondary trauma. Yeah, well, not just him.
• 1:40:28
  I'm thinking about a few things, but yeah, but that's more
• 1:40:32
  recent. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:40:37
  So that that is, that is what I am.
• 1:40:39
  I am urging. That is what I am begging for.
• 1:40:42
  We don't need more Black Lives Matter in the in the sense, in
• 1:40:45
  the sense of protesting that way.
• 1:40:47
  We we need to start doing the internal work.
• 1:40:50
  I think that's the end thing, right?
• 1:40:52
  And I hear. You.
• 1:40:53
  You think you. You.
• 1:40:55
  You think I don't want anyone to think that that's not important
• 1:40:58
  and we need to do this. Yes.
• 1:41:00
  And so it's a it's an and but this is this is an add on,
• 1:41:04
  right, but high priority, right. Like it needs to go to the top
• 1:41:08
  because we have a richer history in doing the other.
• 1:41:12
  Yeah, fair enough. I received that at that is my
• 1:41:15
  time. I was like we didn't done that
• 1:41:17
  to death. I was like, you know, we have to
• 1:41:21
  have a some type of shift. Yeah.
• 1:41:23
  And and for some people that is easy to do because they're not
• 1:41:26
  like we talked about earlier, they're not ready to do that
• 1:41:28
  internal work. It's always just easier to look
• 1:41:30
  outside than to, to look inward. Or that's where some people,
• 1:41:35
  they kind of compensate, you know?
• 1:41:38
  It's painful. It is painful.
• 1:41:39
  It's going to be painful and it doesn't, but it's healing.
• 1:41:42
  But we have to unpack the stuff because it's already painful.
• 1:41:45
  It's nothing new. Like, yeah, and that's the other
• 1:41:49
  part of it. It's not new.
• 1:41:50
  We know that it's there. People have this stuff packed
• 1:41:52
  away. Like you talked about avoidance
• 1:41:54
  was one of those big things that came out right?
• 1:41:56
  Like in terms of how they're they're coping avoidance, lack
• 1:42:00
  of recall people, this stuff is suppressed and those things are
• 1:42:04
  still inside of you and all of that stuff manifests.
• 1:42:08
  And so I think what so to summarize, I heard like, so
• 1:42:12
  there needs to be individual work.
• 1:42:13
  There needs to be inter family work and intergenerational work
• 1:42:18
  so that we have healing that like flows, yeah.
• 1:42:22
  Community work as well. So I am, I just hate to cut you
• 1:42:25
  off, but I want to stress this in my in my my dissertation, I
• 1:42:29
  talk about doing work with faith-based community.
• 1:42:31
  Yeah. Doing those work in those
• 1:42:34
  organizations cause the place where people worship.
• 1:42:38
  They need to be behind it as well because they also play a
• 1:42:41
  role in to into normalizing the practice itself.
• 1:42:46
  There's a lot. There's a lot that's there.
• 1:42:47
  OK, well, we can clearly keep on going, right?
• 1:42:53
  For hours. Yes, easily.
• 1:42:54
  Easily. So I want to close us out with
• 1:42:57
  the signature question. So if you could leave the
• 1:43:01
  audience with one powerful truth to help them rise and thrive,
• 1:43:06
  what would it be? One powerful treatment, man, so
• 1:43:12
  many things I've said recently. What's one that sticks out the
• 1:43:15
  most? I said.
• 1:43:18
  I'm upset in my I'm upset at your humanity because I'm upset
• 1:43:21
  with my. Break that down a little bit.
• 1:43:25
  You know my brain is processing over here.
• 1:43:28
  I say I'm upset with your humanity because I'm set with my
• 1:43:32
  own because we are mirrors of each other.
• 1:43:35
  And So what we choose to call out in each other typically is a
• 1:43:40
  reflection of the things that we internally deal with as well.
• 1:43:45
  And so he choosing to do this study is a reflection of how I
• 1:43:50
  was dealing with it. And so we need to continue to
• 1:43:57
  ask ourselves what type of mirror do we want to be the
• 1:44:00
  deeper question, and what type of mirror do you want to be?
• 1:44:06
  Yeah. With it, I'm with it, I'm like,
• 1:44:09
  I can respond, but that's your that's your closing.
• 1:44:12
  And that's, that's how you feel. That's what you're leaving them
• 1:44:15
  with. And so I want to thank you
• 1:44:18
  again. So let's give a doctor Khalil
• 1:44:21
  Green another round of applause. Yes, I'm a wear it out.
• 1:44:26
  I'm a wear it out every time I see you Doc, doc, what's up?
• 1:44:29
  Doc, doc, doc. Just just get used to it, right?
• 1:44:32
  Like we like you say, you forget how rare we are and it's not a
• 1:44:37
  flex, but it's it's the fact, right?
• 1:44:39
  You earned this. And that don't mean that you got
• 1:44:41
  to go around telling everybody, call me doctor, but, you know,
• 1:44:47
  right, right. Right.
• 1:44:48
  But yeah, you earned it. All right, listeners and
• 1:44:51
  viewers, thank you so much for joining.
• 1:44:52
  And as always, you know, we're not going to leave out of here
• 1:44:55
  without you your own call to action.
• 1:44:57
  So we're going to reflect, take action and affirm.
• 1:45:00
  So your reflection for today is what messages did you receive
• 1:45:04
  about discipline growing up and how are they showing up in your
• 1:45:08
  life today? And then we want you to build on
• 1:45:12
  this and go have a conversation with someone about how
• 1:45:16
  discipline shaped you and what healing looks like now.
• 1:45:19
  And if you don't know where to start, I think this could also
• 1:45:21
  be a great time to connect with a mental health professional, a
• 1:45:25
  support group, it could be a faith-based group.
• 1:45:27
  Talk to a trusted friend or someone as well.
• 1:45:30
  That action could look like whatever is going to support
• 1:45:32
  you, but know that there are people that are licensed,
• 1:45:35
  prepared and ready and to help you on your healing journey.
• 1:45:39
  And finally, your affirmation for today is my healing creates
• 1:45:45
  room for legacy, not just for survival.
• 1:45:49
  Thank you again, Doctor Green, for joining.
• 1:45:52
  And for all the listeners, thank you.
• 1:45:54
  And viewers, thank you for joining us on Rise and Thrive
• 1:45:56
  with Doctor J Nicole, where we are rising in faith and thriving
• 1:46:00
  in purpose. And we will see you next week.
• 1:46:02
  Episodes drop every Tuesday morning.
• 1:46:07
  All right, we'll see you next time.