Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / When Conflict Keeps Repeating: Interrupting Patterns Exhale–Explore–Engage- Masha Rusanov
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy Podcast. I'm Tracy. And if you're a divorce coach or a fellow divorce professional, you've probably had a client say something like, I knew I shouldn't have responded that text, but I did anyways. Or I promised myself I wasn't going to get pulled into another argument. But here we are again. Our clients often know what they should do. They've read the books, they've listened to podcasts, they've practiced communication techniques, yet they still find themselves caught in the same emotional reactions, the same conflicts, and the same frustrating cycles with a former spouse or co-parent. That's because conflicts isn't simply about communication. It's about patterns. And as divorce coaches, we know that separation and divorce does not create conflict patterns. They often expose them. Under stress, people don't always rise to the occasion. They often fall back on familiar ways of thinking, feeling, and reacting. And unless those patterns are recognized, they tend to repeat themselves, regardless of how much we want the situation or the other person to change. And my guest today believes that lasting change does not begin with finding the perfect response to conflict. It begins with understanding the patterns beneath it. Rather than asking, how do I get the other person to change? She invites us to ask a much more powerful question. What is happening inside me that keeps the cycle going? That shift in perspective is at the heart of her new book, Repatterned, and it's exactly why I wanted to have her join us today. So with that, I'm delighted to welcome a fellow colleague, Masha Rasanoff, a conflict expert. Mediator, DCA certified ADR divorce coach, and the author of the new book, Repatterned. Masha holds a master's degree in negotiation, conflict resolution and peace building, and works with individuals and organizations navigating conflict and high-stakes relationship dynamics. Before transitioning into conflict resolution and divorce coaching, Masha spent more than two decades in the technology industry, including leadership roles at Google and Intuit. Today, her work centers on helping people recognize the unconscious patterns that shape how they engage in conflict and teaching practical ways to respond differently through her Excel Explore Engage Framework. Masha, I want to welcome you to the DCA podcast. It is absolutely wonderful to have you here. Masha Rusanov: Thank you so much, Tracy, for the warm welcome. It's great to be here. Tracy Callahan: ⁓ and congratulations on the book. I'm so I'm so happy for you. So with that, can we start there? I'd love to with what inspired you to write Repatterned and was there anybody you wrote it for? Masha Rusanov: Yeah. ⁓ You know. ⁓ you know, it it kind of came about organically through time, but ⁓ the first moment I remember was when my first husband and I were ⁓ about to have the conversation and I knew that he's gonna bring up the fact that Tracy Callahan: Mm. The listener. Masha Rusanov: our relationship wasn't working and that we're gonna go there. And my reaction was, ⁓ what do I do? I better run. I better hide, better hide, I better do something to make the situation disappear and avoid it. But then instead I caught myself in that and I stayed in the conversation. And I think that moment ⁓ it didn't compute Back then into this full-fledged framework that I have described in the book. But that was the beginning of it. The realization that if we are able to catch ourselves and to notice what's happening automatically with our body and emotions and the impulse to do something, then maybe if we notice it, we can change it, then we have the power to do something differently. And that eventually evolved into a framework as I watched conflicts unfold, especially the ones that repeated on the same pattern. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I I I love that, right? The the that place of awareness, but I was also hearing something else, right? In that awareness or sort of this grounding for yourself. You know, there listen, it doesn't take much to jump on Amazon or or look up and do some research. There are countless books on communication. Masha Rusanov: And yeah, that's how it started. Tracy Callahan: Management. Right. What conversation did you hope repatterned would start that wasn't being already ⁓ spoken to or or addressed in current context and available resources? Masha Rusanov: You're right. There's so many books on communication. There's nonviolent communication and how to what to do differently in conflict. But most of them don't address the fact that to be able to change anything, communication or not, you first need to create space for that change to be able to happen. And that's what I was hoping to inspire people to do, to first become aware of the fact that there are processes that are driving us, many of them automatic. and inherited and coming from way back when. ⁓ and once we notice that then we get the power to do something differently and then we can apply all those communication principles and skills and frameworks once we have the chance to do that. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I love that. And you know, one of the central ideas throughout your work is repatterning. So can can you explain what you mean by repatterning? Masha Rusanov: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, like I was describing with ⁓ my ex-husband, how my reaction and initial impulse was to run away and to hide. That was a pattern that formed in my childhood and it was reiterated through many situations because that reaction kept me safe and secure at some moment in time when I couldn't do anything else. And for me, it stems back to my daycare days with Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Masha Rusanov: kind of crazy yelling teachers at daycare. And the safest thing to do was to hide under the blanket or under furniture or somewhere, just become really unnoticeable. And that kept me loved by the teachers and safe. And ⁓ I was fine. And then at school similarly, you know, if you didn't stand out, the teachers liked you if you were a good student and so on and if you were quiet. And so that pattern formed for me. Tracy Callahan: Mm. Masha Rusanov: My nervous system remembered that when there's danger or perceived danger, even if it's not real danger, when the danger is perceived, the safest response would be to run away, to hide, to basically get undercover. And that's one of many patterns. But there are so many patterns that each of us has that we are not really aware of because they do form over time and they are automatic and Tracy Callahan: Yeah, Masha Rusanov: Sometimes we notice like, ⁓ interesting. Whenever I feel threatened, I start yelling, Hm, why is that? But not many people even think that, right? Tracy Callahan: No, it because it's hard to think, right? It's often, you know, what is happening to me versus this idea that I actually play a role in this process. And in even in the most abusive situations, right? You were talking about threat, safety, perceived or or or not. And I think what's really, really significant here is is that it was something the patterns that you did made sense for you. There was some reward, right? You you about if I was quiet and sort of didn't engage, then I was good. I was perceived as good. So then even in these patterns, both in our our conflict style patterns and our communication patterns, which often go hand in hand, right? We learn from a really early age if there was some kind of outcome, right? Or I was less threatened. Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: or I was perceived as being compliant or complicit, right? So I think it it it's so so clear that there's opportunities, but it's hard to get there. Why do you think it's so why do you think that happens, right? That we know intellectually, right? We we can use our thinking brain and understand intellectually, right, what conflict engagement is, what healthy communication is, but when emotions run high, right, we kind of fall into those default behaviors. Why, why, what's happening there? Masha Rusanov: Yeah, it's mostly just biology and how our nervous systems work. ⁓ there's impulse that's the first reaction that comes up when something like that happens, the threat ⁓ or perceived danger. And then there's the habit that is formed over time. And neural pathways that are formed, which essentially is the habit, ⁓ are just like little pathways that get stepped on over and over and over again. So they become stronger and wider. And that's the easy way forward, right? If there's a free way where that you can go right there ⁓ to your the the thing that has worked for you in the past, that's where you're gonna go. It's really hard to think or to choose differently because our nervous system knows that this way has worked and has brought us to safety before. But the thing is, you know, when we're children, we don't have access to the same ⁓ the same tools, the same empowerment, I guess. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Masha Rusanov: as when we are adults, right? If there's an adult yelling at a child, the child can't really do much except for maybe just sit quietly and wait for it to end. ⁓ but when we grow up as an adult, we do have access to different options. But because this highway pattern is so strong, we just keep going down the same path because that's what we know is safe. Tracy Callahan: And you know, as divorced coaches, we work with clients who often feel really trapped in those conflicts, right, with a spouse or co-parent. And the the issue issues change, but that emotional experience feels familiar. So, so why do conflict patterns become so difficult to break during separation and divorce? Right? We just kind of talked about This idea of children and not having the tools or the resources. Adults maybe having access to those tools and resources, but there's familiarity and knowing to get from. If if this is what my desired outcome is, in the past this has worked for me. How do you think that shows up in people getting sort of caught in these conflict patterns and and struggling to break them? Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. ⁓ a few ways. So during separation, our old wounds are triggered. ⁓ our soon-to-be ex or ⁓ spouse gets right in that place where we felt that danger as a child, oftentimes. And it's so hard to stay an adult when you're put over and over into that child state where it felt so dangerous. And it's also very familiar. And our brains, fortunately or not, choose familiar over uncertain uncertainty, right? So when you're thinking, like, ⁓ you know, I really think I should leave, but then what would that look like? I don't know. Maybe I don't have access to resources, maybe I don't have a job or haven't worked for 10 years. What if I can't afford it? And so on. So many questions. And the uncertainty of that. Overpowers oftentimes the fear that we have. So we choose to stay with the familiar because at least we know how to respond. Yes, we get triggered, and yes, we step on the same ⁓ well pattern, I guess. ⁓ but at least we know what that's like. We know what to expect. And also there is oftentimes a reward because once you go through a fight, through a conflict, then especially in high conflict situations, the ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Masha Rusanov: high conflict spouse might say, ⁓ I'm so sorry and apologize and they love you again and you feel so good because it gives you so much dopamine. And you're like, yeah, this is what I live for. And he's gonna change. And we start believing they're gonna change. And then we hope and then it repeats and that's why it's hard to get out of it. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. can't help but think about that, you know, very famous study where the the two groups of individuals had a choice between going into the situation where they may receive an electric shock versus knowing that they're going to get an electric shock. And the majority of people chose the fact that they were gonna go in and choose to know that they were gonna get electric shock because that felt more comfortable. Masha Rusanov: Mm. Tracy Callahan: Then perhaps they were, they weren't. It wasn't guaranteed that they were gonna get shocked, but there was uncertainty. Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm, exactly. Tracy Callahan: Always choose certainty even if it is painful, even if they know that they're going to expose themselves. If I know it's coming, I can prepare myself. And I think that other side of that that you spoke just so beautifully about is that also that reward, right? That the the audacity of hope that things may be different after that pattern or that familiar pattern. ⁓ so one of the things that I appreciate about your work is that you just don't explain why these patterns exist, right? You kind of offer practical frameworks for interrupting them. So can you kind of walk us through Excel, explore, engage, kind of what does each step represent, ⁓ and how how does it support people from sort of reacting automatically to responding intentionally? Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. So exhale is the first step and it's meant to ground you in the moment, in the body, to enable you to create a pause for yourself so that you would be able to notice whatever is going on and then have a different choice. So exhale really is a long exhale because it helps your nervous system to calm down. If you're starting to get triggered or activated or you're in the middle of a conflict, you always have access to your breath. And that's the simplest way to just ground to center. You take the long exhale, and that creates that opens this door for a pause so that then you can go into the next step, which is explore. And explore is really to get curious over judgment. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Masha Rusanov: Right? Because in conflict we tend to think like, ⁓ he's so wrong or she's so wrong. We're so right and you know, they should be doing this, they shouldn't be saying that. There's a lot of judgment happening of the other person and of ourselves. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yes. Masha Rusanov: And so with explore, instead of that, we go into the curiosity. What is this really about? What is happening to me right now? What do I actually want to do? And the first thing that comes up is your impulse, that's your habit, that's your pattern, right? I want to hide. And once you notice that, then you can go into the third step, which is engage. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Masha Rusanov: Which is a more conscious way of deciding what you want to do next rather than your habitual response. You can think about the opposite of what you normally do as a starting point. So if you want to run and hide, maybe the opposite could be stay and show up or say something. And then you notice what it feels like in your body when you think of doing that, when you kind of try on this. other way of doing things. And it may not feel good, it may feel more tense, more scary. Or you actually might notice that maybe it relaxes you and it does feel right. Because our body is so wise and connected to our mind and emotions. And once we listen to it a little bit more, we will know the best choice for us that will lead to the outcome that is the best for us in that situation. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, wonderful. So you know, some some really kind of applicable, easy to do steps, but where do you think people struggle the most? The exhale, the explore, the engage, where where do you think is the stumbling block for a lot of people? Masha Rusanov: It's the first step really. ⁓ because when we are already activated, when our nervous system is already triggered, it's really hard to remember to even breathe. But it's also a habit that you can form. And if you practice exhaling, not when you're triggered, but just a few times throughout the day, just think like, okay, I'm gonna notice what's going on with me. Maybe set an alarm even to train your nervous system to pause and notice and to take that exhale. That's going to get you into the habit of doing that automatically eventually. And then it's easier to do it when you're triggered or activated. And then from there you can go into the other steps. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think ⁓ it it's so true, right? That first step, just getting started and overcoming that big hurdle, which is slowing down, right? Something a little bit about of Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: in in our training about this idea of distress tolerance, right? That whatever that trigger is happened isn't gonna miraculously go away. But it's sort of creating that pause, if you will, slowing down that nervous system activation so that there isn't that hijack, which is really, really centered in your framework in that exhalation and that out and sort of connecting. Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: with ourselves internally. So what step do you think creates the biggest breakthrough then? If if if that ex ⁓ you know, that exhale is the the hardest hurdle to start, right? To get that piece going. Which one do you see is the where where our clients or clients can create the biggest breakthrough? Masha Rusanov: You know, it really is an gauge step where you think of when once you realize what your normal response is and you think of the opposite and maybe a couple more options, ⁓ that puts you out from that highway and into this narrower road that you haven't walked yet. But once you're there, you can see that actually it may not be that bad. So in a situation of separation or divorce, Tracy Callahan: Mm. Masha Rusanov: ⁓ maybe their normal fight pattern is they start talking, one says something, activates the other, the other one tends to ⁓ insult, let's say, or just react very aggressively verbally. And if this person is able to get to the point of noticing that that's what's going on and thinking like, ⁓ what instead of insult I say something opposite of that, like a compliment. Can you imagine? Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Masha Rusanov: What the result could be? Tracy Callahan: Just even in that ability that there is choice, which is what I kind of love in this idea of repatterning that it doesn't have to be this way, right? That there is choice, there is option, and they may not be perfect, right? But they're creating opportunities to see if I engage differently, does it elicit a different outcome rather than continuing in those same pattern cycles? Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: Right. What we love to talk about is that conflict dance where the parties then end up always in the same place with often regret or frustration or anger or resentment or sadness. I mean, we can go through all of the but so so the possibility in that engagement to say, okay, if I did choose a different path and looking at that outcome, there is then reward. Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: too because there there's advancement in the fact that I saw beyond what I've only ever known or what I've done. Yeah. Love that. I love that. So obviously one of the hardest shifts for a lot of our clients or individuals experiencing divorce or co parenting conflict is accepting that the conflict may never change if they're sitting there waiting for the other person to change first. Masha Rusanov: Exactly. Yes. Mm. Tracy Callahan: We often hear things like if they would just stop sending those messages, right? Or if they would finally communicate differently, if they would only understand my perspective. So how does your work help people shift sort of their attention away from trying to change somebody else toward recognizing that the only patterns they truly have influence over are their Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. You know, waiting for the other person to change is a very risky gamble. It does happen very, very rarely, only when and if that person decides that they want to change and they put some effort into that and actually do something differently. and we when we wait for them to change, to do something differently, to say something differently, we give the power to them over our own well-being. Because there's no agency in waiting for the other person to change. Then there's nothing we can do. But if we say, actually, I need to figure out how to be okay regardless of this other person and what they do, then we take the power back and there's agency in that. And right? And then we can Tracy Callahan: Agency. Masha Rusanov: make our own choices, then we decide whether or not we want to change. We decide whether or not the situation is working for us or not. Then we say, okay, if we consider that this person may never change, are we okay with that? Am I okay with that? What do I want to do differently given that new thing now? Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah, and I think one of the challenges in that is that often when clients hear us asking those questions or exploring that process, right? They often think that we're somewhat suggesting the conflict is somehow their fault. And and well, let me ask you, how do you how do you think, how do you help people understand that difference between sort of taking responsibility and Masha Rusanov: Mm. Tracy Callahan: for their re own responses versus taking responsibility for somebody else's behaviour. Masha Rusanov: Yeah, a a relationship or a conflict cannot exist with only one person. There's always two people. And both people contribute to the dynamic. For example, you know, when the conflict is on a repeat, when it's the same old story that happens every day, and it could be initiated by one partner, but if the other one gives the same response over and over, they cannot expect a different outcome. However, Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Masha Rusanov: ⁓ once you realize that the dynamic is between two people, then you know that if one of the sides starts making a shift, it will influence the dynamic between the two. And so if you start with yourself, that's the the easy and the only probably way to actually change the dynamic between two people. ⁓ to start with yourself. And it's not about whose fault it is or who is to blame, really, it's more Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Masha Rusanov: Who makes a move to do something differently first, it's gonna it's gonna shift the dynamic, regardless of which one makes the first move. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, Yeah. So you in in a lot of the work, right, you and you kind of talked about it in your introduction ⁓ of your own experiences as a child, but you kind of also talk about how or exploring with clients how these parent patterns begin. Right. How sort of kind of recognizing how our earliest experiences with conflict shape. the way we respond, especially in these high stress experiences similar to to divorce and co parenting. What does that look like in exploration and repatterning, sort of that identification of ⁓ of early conflict patterns? Masha Rusanov: You know, there's a thin line between coaching and therapy, and I feel like this is where it shows up the most because the way that I see the difference is therapy attempts to work with those old wounds and ⁓ help the person reintegrate the wounded parts that happened, ⁓ you know, got exiled in the past. While as a coach, I look at how Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Masha Rusanov: That old formed pattern influences their present life, present moment and future, and what is helpful to them knowing that they have this pattern that formed in childhood. What would be most helpful for them to shift so that the present moment and future unfolded in a way that would be more fulfilling for them or bring them more joy? We don't go into the past wounds. ⁓ We may notice that something is influencing their present, but I usually refer them to therapy if I notice that there's something that needs to be worked through on that level in the past. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I and I I love you being able to distinguish that because I do think that there is an opportunity that is not about trying to heal past wounds, but also still being able to look at how those patterns may have shaped in in their process, right? How they present themselves. continue to present themselves and to be able to look future focused on how those patterns are influencing future behavior and then what are the choices and being able to do that. So I I I always will say that yes, we don't engage in a therapeutic process or look to heal past wounds, but engagement in those experiences very telling in terms of what the client may be willing to do to change that direction moving forward. Masha Rusanov: That's right. Tracy Callahan: So I think really, really significant. Because many of our listeners are obviously divorce coaches, as this is Divorce Coaches Academy, I'd love to bring this back to the coaching practice, right? So we just talked about this. Our role is in therapy. It's not fixing people, helping clients increase that awareness to build capacity for healthier engagement, right? From your perspective. What role do you see divorce coaches in really helping clients sort of recognize those recurring conflict patterns while remaining firmly within our scope? Masha Rusanov: If we as divorce coaches are able to teach our clients the tools to recognize what's happening with them, to recognize what their patterns might be contributing to their present-day behavior, and then show them how what empowerment may feel like once they do that, they open this choice possibility. If as coaches we can show that and help our clients feel that empowerment. That I think would be just so amazing for all of our clients to experience. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so for our listeners, that hopefully will also pick up your book repattern after today's conversation. What do you hope ⁓ that that those people reading it will take away from your book? Like what what is it that you're really hoping people who read your book walk away with and and For professionals who are also supporting clients and navigating conflicts in their divorce, how does how does repattern fit into all that? Masha Rusanov: Yeah. ⁓ it's this I would like people to who read my book to get this sense of agency back. Because we lose it. We think that we have less control over what's going on with us than we actually do. And I'm hoping that once people see that, then they do feel more empowered and they can then make different choices. And if they're coaches that maybe they can share it with their clients who will also then ⁓ have better outcomes for their situations based on that empowerment. Tracy Callahan: I love that. I love that. That real shift of again, what's happening to me versus what am I willing to do? And in the autonomy and that self-determination, self-actualization, which I'm gonna bring back to my OACE Maslow hierarchy of need, which is, you know, our ultimate, our ultimate goal in reaching that. So Masha, I wanna thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing. Masha Rusanov: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: your work with our listeners. I'm super excited for you and all the work that you did in this book. One of the themes that really stands out for for me in this conversation is that certainly lasting change doesn't begin when the conflict disappears, right? It begins when we become more aware of the patterns we bring into it. And as divorce coaches We absolutely spend a great deal of time helping clients understand that they can't control somebody else's behavior, but they can learn to recognize their own nervous system engagements, automatic responses, to be able to interrupt those patterns and choose a different way of engaging to repattern. And that's where growth happens. That's where capacity is built. And ultimately that's where lasting change is. And I think Repatterned gives professionals a valuable framework for understanding conflict beyond this mere communication strategies and reminds us that beneath every interaction is a pattern. And once we can recognize that pattern, we have an opportunity to change it. So, Masha, thank you again for being here. It has been a pleasure having you on the DCA podcast. Masha Rusanov: Thank you so much, Tracy. I love being your guest. Tracy Callahan: Aw, thanks. And thank you to everyone listening today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, leave us a review, share this conversation with another divorce professional. We know that we continue learning from experts like Masha. We're better equipped to help families navigate one of life's most difficult transitions with greater awareness, intention, and compassion. You can learn more about Masha and access her book in our show notes. So please don't forget to check that out. Until next time, thank you so much for listening.