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Design Codes: From Louis Vuitton Trunks to Cheesecake Factory Interiors to Coca-Cola Red · Design Darlings

• Ro Rich: Hello, darling. Allie: Hello, darling, I'm Allie Miller. Ro Rich: And I'm Robin Richardson. Welcome back to Design Darlings, our podcast where we talk about what makes, breaks, and bakes a good design into the world. today, friends, we're gonna talk about codes. Allie: Ooh, what is code? Tell us more. Ro Rich: What is a code? It's girl, it's giving Dior, it's giving camp, it's giving Shawshank redemption. I'm just kidding, I don't think. what is a code? I think I think that when we talk about codes, it's synonymous with fashion, talking about what are the house codes, which Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: I figured you and I would love to chit chat about since we have opinions and feelings on fashion and house codes. but when we think about it, it's got like two parents, I would say. semiotics, our friend Saussure and the signifier signified, and then our pal Roland Barth. Thing about like pop culture with mythologies, talking about the idea that something in the world can mean something ideological. So a code is like an agreed-upon system for transmitting meaning, and it's reliable and it's replicable. the code of something is like its DNA. in the basic sense of of talking about like semantics, semiotics, when you see a red octagon in our culture, you don't have to read the word stop. You just know that you should stop. And that's what that signifies to you. What do you think of codes when you think of the word code? Allie: Well, I you know, as you're talking about sort of what makes a code, I'm also thinking about how much of a code is intentionally given to us by branding departments, Is a code something that a company puts into the world and says, Hey, when you think of Chanel, think of a Camellia flower, That is something that a a team intentionally put into the world. And then can a code also be organically generated through the zeitgeist. Huh? Ro Rich: I'm so glad you asked. So I'm so glad you asked. So I think the Chanel, in researching this, the Camellia flower, that was an intentional choice of hers, and she chose the camellia because they tend to not have a fragrance. And She didn't want flowers that would compete with the scent of number five in the shop on Rudy Cambone. So So yet so there are the intentional signals that you have in the brand DNA. And then there are things that happen historically that can become synonymous and associated with the brand that no one made a conscious choice over. I've got a great example. Hermes, the orange box. So during World War Two when there were stock shortages, they ended up using this orange, as or part of what they just had in order to box things up. That wasn't a choice of like, we're going to select orange and orange is going to represent us in the world, but it was something that became synonymous with the brand simply because of the history. The Camellia flower from Chanel, that was a choice that she made as part of her brand and like part of a code. And then that becomes a representative signifier of the brand itself. but if you think of another I'm gonna do another color thing, like Tiffany Blue, like Tiffany never trademarked a box. They trademarked they their color. Like so they they said this is part of our brand and so The code is part of the brand's DNA once it is trademarked or once it is legally set up, Then it becomes brand. So sometimes Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: things can be perceived as like a brand code, but once it's privatized and legally defended, that that's when it becomes synonymous with brand. Allie: Well, and codes, codes to work, I think, take also the repeated use. They take there's a baton passing. So I'm thinking about Scaparelli. And Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: when Alison Scaparelli created her house, she was friends with Dolly and the surrealist artist. and so she incorporated a lot of surrealism into her work. And then Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: also she used the sort of iconography of the measuring tape in her designs and on her perfume Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: bottles. And that was something that she did, right? It wasn't until future creative endeavors that would take the Scaparelli brand and iconography. And long after she had passed away, they have decided, okay, these are the markers, these are the codes that we are in a way selecting to then make them a code. So I think there's also like things that maybe as a creative and as a designer you gravitate towards as you're making, but it takes other it takes like a a groundswell of other people to then say, Yes, I agree that is a distinct visual or thematic element of your of your ethos. We're gonna take that and carry it on. I think that's then all you need the the the crowd to make Ro Rich: The transmission. Allie: it a code. Ro Rich: So the choices that like the originator of the house makes is the DNA. Chanel doing the tweed with pearls, this the the the nod to high and low, and it becomes something that's repeated. Just like DNA, right? Like your DNA is that helix and it's repeated and it it's the repetition of that, it was what makes something and and brings it a certain type of life. And so those choices are the reference points when You know, a new creative director comes in. Daniel's a great example there. We've had a lot of creative director changes recently. They look back at what's been done in the house, the house codes. They look in the archives and they're like, Allie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ro Rich: What was repeated over and over that we see as signifiers and exemplars of the the brand because it was reused, like the measuring tape, the different things that she she has a bunch that are very cool and unique to her. And then yes, how can we use those and replicate them and give them new life? Like some of those little bag charms that they've been making are absolutely bananas and so cool. it's like it exists and then it gets repeat reimagined and translated. Just like DNA gets translated, right? Like as you go down generational lines, like it exists and then it translates and retranslates. It remixes itself. Allie: The little ribosomes connect, they open up the double strand of the double helix and then they put their, you know, blah blah blah and we get into the chemistry of that. There you go. The people are the ribosomes of the DNA code. Ro Rich: Yes. Yes. People are the right job. Translating and retranslating and making it into the world. And then it has to be received, right? And and do we all agree that like, yes, that's so Chanel, that's so duor, that's so Prada, because it's it's giving, it's signaling to us. It's giving this is really it's signaling to me with the signs Allie: Right. Ro Rich: and symbols that I can recognize that as visual creatures. We clock that stuff in the wild. If you're savvy to it, you can clock those things. And you know, it's like it's kinda like being in a club. Yes, girl, it is giving that. Allie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like how you brought up the Air Mez example. but I think there's a lot of things that become codes that while we'd like to say is because of somebody's creative genius is just out of necessity. Like Going back to Hermes, you know, the buckles on the purses, Ro Rich: the horse bits. Allie: right? A lot of that just comes from the sort of they understood the construction of these materials in the context of horse riding. And they're like, Okay, we're gonna take these same mechanics. And then I think about like the Louis Vuitton trunks, an i an iconography that for me is like on the corners you have the metal brackets and the way the leather is wrapped. Like that wasn't a maybe it was some sort of a creative decision, but really it was functional decision. It was like this is just is the most you know, Louis Vuitton came from making saddles, right? So he's like, I understand how to physically construct leather goods so that they are the most durable and I can make that material last through ships and trains and all of the sort Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: of mechanical processing that that needs to go through. And then it Ro Rich: Voice of the one, yes. Allie: yeah, and then a century later it becomes the code of the brand, but it started from incredibly utilitarian, necessity. Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: Yeah, voyage upon voyage. Well, actually Vuitton also became famous because as the luggage went on trains, planes and automobiles, he'd created a lock that could not be picked. And so, you know, you weren't handling your bags. If you were that fancy and you were on all like people were handling your luggage for you. And so I think part of the leather checks and the logo, like the lockup, was an indicator of that brand that you had it. And so it was standing also for the craftsmanship. And it was signaling that you were able to buy the best, which, right, that's why people are so drawn to luxury and drawn to heritage, because the heritage of that brand stood for this really fantastic craftsmanship. as part of their Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: tradition. And you get these houses that came up out of necessity, out of great, I'm gonna say industrial design. Like the leather work, there was utility in that, but the it went beyond utility. It was like the best craftsmanship. Then it became heritage. Why? Because I can pass it down to my kids. It's not gonna fall apart. So then it becomes synonymous with like old money. And anyone who wants to be per seen and perceived as being part of that club, you have that. It's the code is that, this, this old luggage, this old thing? yes, we've had it forever. there's this funny lady I follow, Aunt Kiki. Kiki asked her, do you follow her on Instagram? Allie: No, no. Ro Rich: She's talking about how the girly girlies trying to be like giving rich old British girlies buy new barber jackets. And she's like, no, honey, you need to wear your grandfather's barber jacket that is could stand up on its own. talking about how the heritage brands can get handed down and handed down and handed down, at that point they're so incredibly broken in that you are like, this old thing. It's giving that code of old money. Inherited brands, literally. Allie: It goes back to the the original the original Jane Birkin Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: Birkin, She was like, I wanna wear this thing to the ground. can we just talk the the design codes of just steamer transportation? I just you Ro Rich: girl. Allie: know, I was not alive and I have no context for this, but I just there was a the whole design aesthetic of traveling the world on a boat starting in like the early 1900s through like nineteen forties. I mean and there was a whole era of design. where designers and d furniture designers were designing specifically for boats and the glamour of the trunks and the metal furniture and the hats and the coats and there was a whole economic subset just of how to make you look cool when you were traveling for, a month on a boat across the ocean. Like Ro Rich: I I've seen some really cool videos of people finding fixtures off of those ships and the way they open and hold things inside, all of that luggage and even the furniture, I'm saying furniture, like with air quotes and fixtures that existed on those ships had to be so highly functional. and Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: talk about an era of industrial design that like That to me is also incredibly romantic, to have the function and it's funny when you go to design school, you know this, they talk about Architects, also made furniture, also made objects, because if you're gonna design the house, why not design the furniture? They went in the house also. And there's a lot of great great design teams historically that not only did they design the house, I mean Frank Lloyd Wright he would design furniture and what's her name? my gosh, there's a woman that Yes. Yes. Allie: Are you try I'm trying to think of this woman who designed specifically for boats? Like there's Ro Rich: There's a lot of great female designers that kinda got folded in or forgotten about and they did a lot of the interior objects, right? We talk about interior design. I think people think of decor and paint, but like interior design is and we're gonna have a guest on about that soon. Design is functional objects in the house and making the things that you also had in that setting is really like that they are the OG industrial designers too. And 'cause they were designing top to bottom, which is awesome. Are you gonna go find that lady boat designer? Allie: Is it is it Eileen Gray? Ro Rich: Eileen Gray did f my god, who did she work with? She did furniture and other things. Allie: I should look at my book. I have two editions, I don't know if you know this, Robin. I have two editions of A Thousand Chairs by Tashin. And I'm sure Ro Rich: you do. I did not know that. Allie: her one of her boat chairs is in one of those editions. So Yeah. Ro Rich: Okay. All right. That's your homework. then there's the eras that have vibes too that people associate with things. in the early iPhone apps, the notes app was a leather bound notebook. Or they had the real reels on there for recording. And even the early Instagram icon looked like a Polaroid, right? And so the code of analog was put into digital and folded in there. And then you've got typographic style, like Helvetica and Sanserif became the objectively trustworthy and modern font. And it was used in airports and you know, ads and institutions because it seemed neutral. It was very democratic feeling font. that Swiss international typographic style. I don't know if it's coded so much as it's just synonymous, with an identity. And then you think about something like brutalism. brutalism is a design style, and the raw concrete was considered honest and civic seriousness in a very post-war moment. I think maybe aesthetics play in here too and I girl, now we're in the thick of it. We've gone from oof, code to brand to aesthetics to vibes. Allie: put a pin in that real quick. Ro Rich: Talk about it. So Allie: going back to using analog elements to help us become comfortable with digital technology. We're Ro Rich: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Allie: seeing an interesting flip of that right now, where the branding of Claude hat is uses Sarah fonts. And so I think you're Ro Rich: Is it? Allie: seeing now these like AI companies reverting back to serif, reverting back to analog visual identities to make us comfortable with technology. we went from analog to tech, and Ro Rich: Simplified. Mm-hmm. Allie: then we started using Helvetica and sans serif things to then make it feel modern. And then we we're now so modern that we're then going back to the the analog sort of typographic elements to then help us reintroduce and build new comfort with these technologies. okay, but I think you get to this bigger question that maybe we can like dig into for a little bit because we've talked, we've Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: used code, we've used aesthetic, we've used brand, we've used vibe, we've used its giving. is there a distinction between these terms? It what what makes a code a code as opposed to just being a brand? Ro Rich: So I think a code is vocabulary that you can riff on. And the different creative directors get hired to riff on that vocabulary or fired if they don't remix them very well. but they always have to be maintained. They always have to be there. You could play with it, but not really. Like I like I've never seen a remix So I think a brand is more rigid than a code because a code is vocabulary and grammar, and you can riff on that because the the youths, the kids, everybody riffs on language and grammar, and you can imagine and reimagine how we speak. people spoke in the 50s was much different than they did in the 90s, was much different than they do today. So I think that house codes are the vocabulary. and the grammar that signify something and the brand itself is more like, there's that's the rigid part of that that will not change. That's my Allie: Yeah. I think this sort of parallels a lot of what you were just saying, but I kind of think of it as like the most strict to most diffuse, So a brand Ro Rich: Right. Allie: I see a very commercial application to a brand where Ro Rich: Sure. Allie: a brand is at its core. I need to make this item so easily identifiable and recognizable. That people know this is that thing and I sell that widget for my company and you see this brand, you wanna buy that thing, and I make money. I think brand oftentimes is very in in like a capitalistic sense. Not always, but like in the in the most black and white terms. Yeah, go ahead. Ro Rich: I think, but you know what else? It's the legal defense of it as well. Because if you have a really great brand and you've established it and someone's gonna run over and be like, I'm not Chanel, I'm Chanel A. And aren't I the same? Just like when people buy Brolexes, like Allie: Chanel A number four and a half. Ro Rich: Yeah, I yes, perfume four and half. Like you Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: you can't have someone encroach that because you've also established that that is your line in the sand. And so I think the legality of it protects you. So once it becomes original to you, if someone else is trying to knock it off, one it reads as fake. but people will still buy the fakes Do you remember when Burberry in the 90s? something happened in they're plaid Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: didn't lapse, but it like everywhere. It was being knocked off everywhere. And I think that for whatever reason that had them go chase it down and reclaimed their brand. But do you remember that? The proliferation of Burberry plaid everywhere in the nineties? Everyone's like, What? Allie: Yeah, I mean it was Burberry, it was the the Louis Vuitton collection, it was the early two thousands heyday of just luxury knockoffs was everywhere. Yeah. It was a golden era of knockoffs. I mean there's like Ro Rich: Yeah. It was nuts. Dana Thomas writes a really good book about that. Allie: the great Sex in the City episode where they go to LA and then they go all the way to they drive like two hours out into the valley to then get their like knockoff. Ro Rich: Yes. Yes, the knockoff markets. Allie: Fendies from the trunk of a guy's car. It's great. Yeah. Ro Rich: And they have those in New York. They didn't need to go to LA for that. There's plenty of that on, you know, Canal Street. But there is, I would say, I'll put it in the show notes, the the reason those things proliferated in the nineties. yeah, Dana Thomas wrote a great book about it. So It's like your last summer read. Go do Allie: Which book? Plug plug the book, Plug City? Ro Rich: It's called Deluxe, The Death of Luxury in Fashion. it's really it's a really great book. And then she did a a sequel to it as well. Anything I love Dana Thomas, she's smart. Allie: Nice. Okay. Ro Rich: Hmm. Allie: So back to my theory. Okay, so brand. Ro Rich: Sorry. Allie: No, no, that's no, that's a great tangent. So brand is the, the the most immediate. And I think even too, we've we've sort of diffused brand to be like, what's your personal brand? And but again, it's it's a very Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: like strict, this is a very clear indication of myself, my identity. And then I think then you get to code is in this like kind of middle area. where it does in some way belong to the brand, but it's more organic, it can evolve, and it doesn't necessarily have to have a commercial application, you know we can Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: have like a prep code, we can have we can start to apply a code to an era, a time. It doesn't have to be tied to an one individual entity. It can be a tie to like sort of a collective group. but again, there's still very recognizable markers, can easily identify codes of blank. And then for me, the last kind of era, the third sort of ring is like the aesthetic vibe. Where there's you're in this like weird nebulous area where like if it's giving like an 80s aesthetic, Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: we generally can think think like poofy taffeta and glitter and big hair like it's an aesthetic but if we it's a Ro Rich: Shiny. That's a shiny aesthetic. Allie: shiny aesthetic but if you said hey I want you know the codes of West Hollywood prep school in 1985 LA like there's more specificity so I think the more specific Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: you go You go from like vibeslash aesthetic to code to brand. how rigid or how tight is the definition of it? Ro Rich: That's interesting to think about. Allie: too? The ownership gets diffuse. So the the definition and the ownership gets more diffuse the kind of farther out you go. Ro Rich: Well, I was thinking about when I was doing my graduate work, I had an amazing advisor. her name was Diana Miller, She was my semantic, semiotic goddess. She was brilliant, when I was writing my thesis, I was like, this feels so big. And she had done some work in film and she said, you know, when people do a movie, They want it to be a movie that everyone resonates with. she's not just one small town girl. She's everyone's girl that lives in any city. And so she said, But the thing is, the more specific you get in any character about like the The denim that she's wearing and her Chuck Taylors that she's wearing and her this and her that. The more specific she is, the more real she feels. And she was like, that is the thing that makes her feel universal because she feels so real, because those things are so tactile. And I think the tactility of of like, you know, Chanel has the black quilted leather. Like that is something that if you know that you can clock it immediately because it's quite specific. I think the specificity of the code of that DNA, once it's translated and replicated and scaled up. maybe that's where it becomes the brand because now it's repeated. Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: So like it can't be, it could be a one-off, it could be an anomaly, but when it's repeated, that's when it becomes the brand. And so you go from being like something that's quite niche and now you've got the brand of the small town girl. So then Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: and then it exists in the broader ecosystem because everyone has seen it and understood it and experienced that or relationship to that in their own way. And then it gets diffused in the world. So that that DNA of that particular thing becomes ubiquitous, one of my favorite words, simply because it's recognized and replicated and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can spot it in the wild. Does that make sense? Allie: Yeah. No, and so when I the word so just design literacy came to mind when you were talking about this. Ro Rich: Yes. one of my favorite topics. Allie: Because Big girl from the city goes to the small town, That's easy to do because you don't need specificity, but to your advisors point that's also what doesn't allow it to resonate with people. It's so nonspecific Ro Rich: Mm, mm-hmm. Allie: that it's a big nothing burger. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't resonate with anybody because it's it's easy. It's low hanging fruit, But requiring knowledge and a vocabulary of whatever you're trying to understand, create specificity. Like I think about last summer, right? The aesthetic, the vibe was tomato girl summer, And everyone Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: wanted to live their sort of Italian, Mediterranean, Riviera dreams. And as a general aesthetic, that worked. But if you ask half of those women do you know who Fellini is, they probably can't name, you know, mid-century Italian directors or understand the aesthetics of that era of filmmaking and fashion and what it was happening economically, socially. but having a deep understanding of an era of time and historical context and design aesthetics and trends and the brands and what was happening, then when you do try to have your version of tomato grow summer, there's gonna be a level of specificity. There's gonna be an exactness that's gonna make whatever thing you're making or referencing More potent and more powerful. Because whether Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: or not your consumer knows you have that knowledge, your vocabulary is going to allow that thing to resonate more with. Ro Rich: You're talking about something that's been generized versus authenticity. And I think Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: you know, this small town girl goes to the city, gets a big job, comes back, meets her old friend from the city. that feels so genericized that everyone goes, That's not a real person. And so I feel I remember seeing last year it was like, Instead of her staying in her small town, where does she come through? Pick up the guy who's like, let's go to the city, babe. I want to do this, which would feel more authentic because it s it switches the script. And so like I think about going to you know like a home decor store. And you've got Tomato Girl Summer. All of a sudden you see posters that are sardine cans everywhere and there's those tomatoes. Like it's Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: a Mediterranean ad this harkens back to episode one actually, of that Paris poster that you have in your apartment. Like did you Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: go to Paris and walk through Montmartre and find this poster Or did you buy it at a home decor store? is it I lived and experienced and I have a a deeper reading and knowing versus the idea of that. There's a term for that. Allie: Media literacy? No. Ro Rich: well, I mean, yeah. being able to r it is, it's being able to read and write the code and be like, what makes mid-century modern? Tell me the codes of mid-century modern for furniture. Let's just say decor, not Allie: I mean. Ro Rich: even typography or visuals. Just give me like mid-century furniture. Allie: okay, well my gosh, where do I begin? So Ro Rich: Ha ha. Allie: the first thing I think about with mid-century modern furniture is simple clean lines. it was coming post-World War II. And we've talked about this in past episodes, but you had, incredibly mechanized machinery that was designed to build war equipment to now building consumer goods. And so when I think about midcentury furniture, it's your you're taking natural materials, so wood, glass, metal, and you are putting putting them into these incredibly modern angular shapes that prior to World War II, we just didn't have the equipment to build Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: that type of furniture at scale. So that's sort of the first thing I think about is natural materials, but used in these very geometric angular shapes. And a lot of that again when harkens back to I also think, you know, when we go through big societal upheavals, artistically, creatively, design wise, there's often sort of a coming back to our roots, a coming back to basic shapes as a way Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: to sort of symbolically say we're starting fresh, we're starting a new era. of of language, of code, of design, of the reality that we want to create. So that's the first thing I think of is Ro Rich: Well, I'm looking okay, I'm looking at the Eames chair across from me. And you said a couple of things, so we were able because of injection molding and plastics, we have so we have material and production innovation. So we can make forms. We can make these curvilinear forms that weren't possible to make. We couldn't make Allie: Yeah. Couldn't make. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ro Rich: like when the Eames, you know, like they took that steam press, they were able to like press and roll wood I need to check the dates. But like there was that movement of everything. It was like between Art Deco and it was in the thirties and forties and things look fast. Allie: Craftsman. Ro Rich: The no, the fast when everything there's a name for it. I have a book about it. Damn it. Allie: fu not futurist, but it's like neo futurism something. Yeah. Ro Rich: It was sleek, it was like had the curves and it had the chrome and everything looked like we were moving in a direct we were moving into the future and like girl, things were fast. Like we went from having the trains of like shoveling coal that you think of like a Victorian, like the Harry Potter train, into like we've got these s like streamlined things that go fast Allie: Well Raymond Lowy, like Raymond Lowy made the bullet pencil sharpener. Like let's pencil Ro Rich: Yes. Yes. Allie: let's sharpen our pencils really fast. Ro Rich: Yes, like everything's gonna be really speedy in the future. And and you got like my gosh, what I just had an the car design. Like some of the concept cars that came out of the thirties and forties were just magnificent in the way that they they imagined the future. as being really fast. And so because you can make these different forms with the technology, I think a mid-century modern also like the legs disappeared, like furniture the legs were heavier and sturdier because it had to hold the heavier material. You had a change of materials that were lighter weight and so you could engineer them differently. So they kinda disappeared. They kinda faded. They all got sh they got lower and they got more streamlined in the way that they were crafted. So in Scandinavian design and mid century modernism are like holding hands as friends. Ikea it's Scandinavian design. Yeah, it's got a mid century vibe to it. Absolutely. Because that was modernity was stripping away the ornament and being highly functional and you know, taking up smaller space in the home. Also the footprints of the footprint of a home back then was not nearly to the grand scale. Remember like many the McMansions of the late nineties, early two thousands and like Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: all the furniture got huge all of a sudden and it was because it had to fill the space in those places with giant vaulted ceilings. I feel like it was like like Nouveau Vegas architecture. Everything was like cheesecake factory scale. You're like what the hell is going on? Allie: my god. That I was gonna talk about McManchin Hell, like talk about design codes, but can we talk about the design codes of the Cheesecake Factory? Ro Rich: Honey, my god. Allie: Have you ever seen that I that iconic Twitter thread of Yes Okay, we'll put it in the show notes. If you have not read Ro Rich: Yes, the breakdown of that, of like, yes, holy god, yes. Allie: the Cheesecake Factory Twitter thread, it's it's a treat. It's a treat. Yeah. Ro Rich: It's really good. So I I I will double click on your literacy of being able to read and understand and decipher those different things and where they come from. I think some of it could just be like people are going for a vibe. But again, the more specific and more knowledgeable you are about the the origin or the history of something. My friend Carmelo Spinelli, as you know, fashion Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: historian, is all about You can't understand where we are right now in fashion or anything else unless you understand the history because this is all coming from somewhere. the idea of trends and things, like it's it's really that we're reimagining and re inventing things that existed. Like Chanel has Chanel has the black tip shoe, the black tip shoe. Allie: The ball the ballet flat, yeah. Ro Rich: Yeah, and she was like forever, you know, for a while that w became People saw it as like old lady style. Like it was very cool for a while. And then it was like, it's old lady style. Now it's back. now it's being brought back and it's being reimagined. and so people like, ooh, it's trending. She's like, girl, you do not know your history. Like, hello. this is not a trend. It's something that is has been part of a a code or the DNA and it's being reimagined and reissued. which is, you know, designers looking back. having the literacy of the house and having the literacy of fashion and then you're like, that's where this come from. So I would say Carmel is all about like the literacy, but you need to have a like the histories, your literacy of culture, essentially. Allie: Yeah. And then the funny thing about the Chanel codes are I think about the black shoes, codes can be reappropriated and reinterpreted Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: years beyond their intention. Because a lot of Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: Chanel's original codes actually came from her upbringing, where for many years of her youth she actually lived in a convent. So Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: the the black shoes, the the simple black flats. The little black dress literally comes from her being in a convent and seeing nuns wear black dresses and simple black shoes. And the the the visual, the kind of her tweeds are inspired by the stained glass that she saw in these churches and the metal belts are based off of the things she saw the priests wear. So you know, things that now we associate with Chanel as codes of that that house. originally were codes of Catholicism it's interesting how we they take on a completely new meaning as they as they evolve, as the DNA Ro Rich: Well Allie: evolves. Ro Rich: Yeah, 'cause she was reading the world around her and then she was writing it. Like her literacy was reading and writing. So she's reading this around her and then she's writing it into fashion. She's writing it into a new life. you know the Chanel jacket with the four pockets? Like that was inspired by the Bellhop boys working the elevators. you know that French that striped shirt that everyone wears in the summer? Well it was actually From the French Navy. That was a workwear shirt. And they had the stripes in case you fell overboard, you would be more visible in the ocean. And Chanel saw it and was like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that. Allie: That's cute. Ro Rich: Reap I'm gonna reappropriate it. I'm gonna take it and she always blended like the high and low. So here's a literally a workwear shirt, and now she's making it a piece of fashion, which her capacity to read, write, and like that translation that happens was part of. Right? That genius, like you're talking about, like that's the literacy of being able to read the world, look back as a creative director, read the codes, translate them and write them into the language of today. Write them into the language of fashion today, which is Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: brilliant. That's valler. It's amazing. Allie: All right, what else do we have? Ro Rich: I feel Allie: another one we haven't talked about is Coke. Ro Rich: yeah, that's right. You were gonna talk about Coke. Allie: so this is an interesting one where you have the code and the brand of Coca Cola, it is a tight ship. Those Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: people are strict. That the color, the script, Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: the font. And Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: know, Coke is global. Coca sold literally in almost Ro Rich: yeah. Allie: every single country in the world. when you're that global of a brand, it is really hard to like maintain consistency across all of your touch points. So a big point of this rebrand was to say how can we create the most minimalist, simplistic brand standard that can Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: literally be scaled across hundreds of countries Ro Rich: Interesting. Allie: and cultures and systems. Which So the actual rebrand, people are like, well, that's not that like you didn't really do much. But when you think about the scale of what they're trying to do, you have to keep your actual brand incredibly simple. But Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: one thing that I thought was really interesting is that, Coke Zero prior to this brand, Coke Zero but can was black, and then Coke obviously was the iconic red. They made the Coke and Coke Zero can look almost identical. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: The only distinction is Coke, zero sugar. And so they're trying to make Coke Zero basically like take the place of regular Coke. So they're intentionally Ro Rich: Interesting. Allie: making the design of the can almost similar to that the point where you can accidentally buy the wrong one. But what's Ro Rich: Hm. Allie: Really interesting is that Diet Coke, which jokingly is like, you know, the, you know, the fridge sig of the world is like your little Diet Coke. Ro Rich: Yeah. yeah. Allie: They didn't touch the rebrand of Diet Coke. one of the most iconic products Coke makes, Diet Coke, they actually didn't rebrand anything about the Diet Coke can. They kept it exactly the same. But everything Ro Rich: 'Cause it's working. It's working. It's that gray can. Allie: else Ro Rich: Interesting. Okay. Allie: Yeah, and then there's a lot of critique of like commentary on the the the new font that they came up with. They think it looks a lot like Marlboro cigarettes, like the old school kind of Marlboro font. Ro Rich: Interesting. Allie: But then they're like, is it intentional? 'Cause it's a play on like the fridge cigarette, but maybe it's not that deep and it just happens to be a coincidence 'cause of the red and the script and whatever. I think this whole rebrand is like it'd been really interesting because there is the design code. There's the brand, like back to your conversation of the legality. There's a lot of strictness on like the Coke brand. And this is again back to how much is the company Coca-Cola very intentionally trying to sort of change the design codes to make them like push them in a certain direction. But then they're also leaving other things the same. And they're like, we're not going to touch this 'cause we know that that's just Die Coke is a silver can. We're just gonna keep it as is. Ro Rich: Hmm. Well, I think like, you know, if we stick with a DNA metaphor, it's like DNA is inherited and you can replicate it, you can mutate it a little bit, but you can't corrupt it. Like you can't fundamentally change it. So it feels like it's like it's kind of mutating or evolving to meet the world and like respond to the world in the in its current state and trying to meet consumers where they're at without messing up the g the the basic genes of Coca Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: Cola, so that you can recognize it and it's there, and you don't mess with it. that made me think of Like you know, when you travel internationally, like there's different soda brands and like, yeah, you can find folk, but there's also really fun ones. Made me think of like Bollywood and how Bollywood Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: would like remake, still do, Hollywood movies, Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: in a different don't like remake it, but it's the Bollywood version. And so I feel like that's a really great example of like reading an original movie and then like translating it into the culture so it works and fits in that culture and because it it becomes its own beloved thing as well. huh. Allie: But then Bollywood Ro Rich: I might just Allie: has its own unique design code of just Ro Rich: Absolutely. Allie: they I just love how extreme Bollywood movies are. Especially like action movies where there's like, you Ro Rich: that was hilarious. my god, yes. Allie: know, they'll be on a train and there's a fire and then like a tiger jumps through the train as the guy's fighting the other guy, there's an explosion in the back. It's incredible, it's insane. Yeah. Ro Rich: Is. It totally is. Yeah. my gosh. Well, okay. So we've I've we talk a lot about codes and brand and DNA of a brand. Once it becomes replicated enough, then you know it gets it gets trademarked, it gets legally protected so that other people can't come and encroach on it. and then that code is remixed and relived as we experience it and consume it and people reinterpret it as you know, creative directors and as humans. We we do the same thing. So I would like to ask you, I feel like this is a ki almost a design darling of the week. what are your codes? Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: Like how would you talk about your own personal codes for yourself? Do you have an Ally Miller code? Allie: Wow. interesting you know i'm looking around my my living room and i think a code of of me is old oddities you know, vintage objects, things that are aesthetic functional, but at the same time not functional. Like things that are sturdy and well made, but Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: are not sleek Yeah, I just I think I'm surrounded by things I think my code are slightly quirky, slightly cumbersome things. that are well built and long lasting, but just like a little inconvenient. Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: I don't know. Is that more of a brand or is that a code? I don't know. Ro Rich: That's a good question, 'cause what gets repeated, essentially, okay, so if we think about codes as being repeated, what are your repeated themes that you're like, that's so Allie Miller? It's giving Ally Miller. Like, what are those things? Allie: Well, I if Science said it's given to Ally Miller, I think from a outward appearance, It's gonna be I wear a lot of bright colors. I'm not afraid of things that are a little flashy, a little Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: I'm not afraid to like be noticed, So I think Ro Rich: Uh-huh. Allie: everything visually everything is very unique and distinct. Right? And Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: nothing blends in, but Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: even my clothes, the objects, everything I own, if you look inside the hood, everything's gonna be well made. So when I'm thrifting, I want it to look fun and flashy and a little quirky, but if there's a French seam on the inside, I'm gonna get it. If it's made from a hundred percent silk, I'm gonna get it. So the materials, Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: every the materials are all really quality materials and I really look at the in the construction, but I also want the exterior of it to look have personality and fun and quirk to it. Ro Rich: Okay, interesting. I like it. Allie: Quirky. We I had a friend who he there's the SNL skit of like the the Zoe D. Chanel like talk show and they're like it's quirky girls. So he'd always, you know, call me and some other friends. We're quirky girls. So yeah, crafting quirky. Yeah. Ro Rich: How do you define quirky? Allie: I think there's a code of quirky. There's like it's Ro Rich: Okay, what is it, girl? Allie: think Ro Rich: Read it for me. Allie: Quirky is okay, it's gonna be unique and bold, but not aggressive. And it's gonna there's like a curiosity to it where if you see something that's quirky, you're not like off put by it. you're not scared and you don't want to run away from it, but you're like, I'm really intrigued by that. what what is going on here? What is Ro Rich: What is going on here? Allie: going on here? It's a little weird. Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: But you're delightfully intrigued. Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: It's not for everyone. But you're like, okay girl, you do you. You have fun with that. You know? Yeah. Ro Rich: I'm a fan. Allie: What is what's your ro what's your Robin design code? Ro Rich: This is fun. So I feel like I am a manifestation of Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: articulate, over caffeinated some days. reads the footnotes, I will throw random facts at you. sometimes I like bright color, but it says confidence, not chaos. So I would say that my color Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: is less quirk and more like. snaps like okay Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: like I will wear hot pink I love blazers. It's funny I had a grad school friend who met one of my like a friend of mine from undergrad and she was like Robin's probably wearing her blazers and he was like yeah she's always been like that so you know I'm gonna I'm gonna throw on a jacket because I did the reading and I'm gonna I'm gonna show up. so it's like I'd say I ha like a prep code to me. but there's like I'd say my my balance of rigor and fun is is part of my part of my code because I also like a mix of old and new. So modern Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: and classic things that you can wear and rewear. I have clothes that I've had for twenty, thirty years that I just said I'm like, yeah, this is I I buy things to be functional and timeless, So I think that's Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: why I'm drawn to classic silhouettes because you can mix and remix them with different accessories you can clock it of classic, but also there's more there, there's more underneath it. probably comfort with a hint of edge to it. I think I have a hint of edge sometimes. Okay. Allie: Mmm I see that. Yeah, that works. Okay, as you were talking, I was also thinking my friends have sent me things and they go, this is so alley coded. And I'm like, Ro Rich: Okay, like what? Allie: okay. So anything that's small and weird Ro Rich: Again, small and weird. Like what? Okay, I love things that are brass. my friend Alicia sent me this brass alligator, and I love anything that's brass because I grew up with random brass things in the house, and I like the heft of it. My grandfather was in the navy and he traveled and brought back these crazy brass ashtrays. My grandfather never smoked, but he ears these brass ashtrays, and I cleptoed. Them from my parents' house. because they're they're fantastic. Like I love and I'm Jane's art. so yeah. Allie: See, your small weird things are still incredibly sophisticated and classy. so there's this company where you can buy mystery balls of miniatures of things. And I bought it and it is a mystery ball of five miniatures of food. And so I have on my shelf a little miniature of a a seven eleven Slurpee and a little teeny tiny miniature. Of those milano cookies. So just Ro Rich: yeah. Allie: weird little miniatures. And the friend bought me this little miniature of this retro Barbie case. Just small weird things. or videos there's this video that my friend and I laugh hysterically over, and it's this little teeny tiny Pomeranian dog. And this song Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: it's like, Ain't never gonna break my stad, ain't never gonna slow me down. And it's just this little dog, Ro Rich: yeah. Allie: poppin'. It's just just weird small things. But then the juxtaposition of that is also I love incredibly romantic, melodramatic things. Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: So like Chloe Zhao's Hamnet Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: give me a a s a slow, brooding, melodramatic. Ro Rich: Yeah, Wuthering Heights. We know. I feel like we're flocking this Allie: Wathering Heights Ro Rich: about you. We're decoding Alley in real time on the podcast. Allie: There we go. So yeah, my codes really fluctuate between incredibly heady, escapist, romantic, but then also just weird little objects. Ro Rich: All right. Excellent. I feel like all humans are creatures of certain objects. And that's Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: really fun in and of itself. like when you go to someone's house and you're like, What's on your shelf of things? I had a Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: Dinner party not ongoing my friend Jackie, who is a brilliant designer. I saw her looking at this shelf of all my little things and there's decks of cards and match boxes cause I like to collect things with typography or texture or whatever. And so I have little nooks in the house where I have stuff. And my friend Megan was in town recently and I have this Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: little set of built-in shelves. and it's a mix of graphic design and objects. She was like, This is my favorite part of your house. I was like I was laughing. But it's fun Allie: Weird stuff, yeah. Ro Rich: because it has like little pops of red and I like to have little vignettes in my house or little collections of things that are pleasing to my eye. I like fun, non-functional objects too. Yes. Allie: Yeah. I also have little like skull like tea light candles that I'm looking at. Just I don't know, I think that's weird. It's just like weird things. Ro Rich: How very McQueen of you. All right, so what did we cover? well hopefully we helped you decode codes today because there are all of these references that live in the wild, And the more literacy you have in design, the more you can understand where those things come from and make a more informed purchase or choice for whatever it is that you love. What do you think people can takeaway about codes as we wrap up? Allie: think codes I think they help us better understand the world around us. I think codes give us a framework to build our own identities, our own brands. And then Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: whether it's us trying to emulate a code or create something original, they give us a frame of reference for how to push creative boundaries and have an appreciation for what's come before us. Ro Rich: Yeah, knowing your history. Because codes are about that history and that DNA. I'm I'm actually really interested to see how our are we gonna return to handmade, handcrafted? Because we there's a trust in that. I think codes Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: also in it basically are a shortcut to trust, right? That's what luxury is supposed to be, a shortcut to trust. I can trust this brand, I can trust the quality, I can trust the heritage. So are codes going to become a new shortcut to trust and what's that gonna look like for reliability and well made things? Allie: Yeah. you took the words out of my mouth. But yeah, I think codes, like you said, they create iconography that we can then trust. And with trust, I think in the most sort of altruistic way, when we can build trust, we can build community. And I think through community we have belonging. Ro Rich: Now you're about tribes identity and shared values. wow. Okay. You wanna be tribe of Chanel? Allie: Yes, I am. There we go. And on that note Ro Rich: The tribe of Chanel? Just kidding. No. Allie: Nope, scaparelli. We're the scaparelli camp. Ro Rich: Well, we're gonna have some more guests on soon, so We'll have them help us decode more design in the world. So thanks for joining us and we'll we'll talk soon. Goodbye, Allie: All right, ta cha, bye bye. Ro Rich: darling.