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The GOP Meltdown Over Hunter's Conviction · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah Longwell.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, we're going to talk about Hunter Biden's
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: conviction and what it might mean for the president and
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the campaign. We're going to go through the results of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: last night's primaries, and we're going to talk about where
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: we see the presidential race just two weeks after Trump's conviction.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: With me to discuss all of this is the incredible
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Sarah Longwell, host of the amazing Focus Group podcast, publisher
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: of The Bulwark. Sarah is going to share with us
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: some of what she's seeing in our Focus Groups with
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Trump voters. Sarah, welcome back to Positive America.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me. I love doing this.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: It's so good to have you. This is going to be,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: we have a lot to talk about today. Just another episode,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: another conviction. So that's sort of where we are in 2024.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of people getting convicted these days.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Yesterday, a jury in Delaware found Hunter Biden guilty of
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: lying about his drug use when purchasing a gun and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: possessing a gun while using illegal drugs. Both are felonies.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: He could theoretically face up to 25 years in prison,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: but sentencing guidelines suggest he's likely to get much less.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: In fact, maybe no prison at all. Hunter still faces
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: another federal trial in California for allegedly failing to pay taxes.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: President Biden released a statement saying, I am the president,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: but I am also a dad. Jill and I love
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: our son, and we're so proud of the man he
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: is today. The statement also said Biden will, quote, accept
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: the outcome of the case and will continue to respect
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the judicial process. Look, in normal times, the first child
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: of a sitting president being convicted of a crime would
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: be a seismic event. But in a campaign where the
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: other guy just happens to be the first former president
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: convicted of a crime, the Hunter verdict may not make
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: much of a splash. Sarah, first of all, what's your
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: reaction to the verdict?
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, my first reaction is Hunter's probably guilty of
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: these crimes. He also probably wouldn't have been prosecuted for
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: them were he not the sitting president's son. And I
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: think from a political standpoint, just a political optical standpoint,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: it's probably good because I think that it makes it
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: a lot harder for Republicans to argue that this is
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a two-tier justice system. You know, I hear this from
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: voters a lot where they say, why are they going
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: after Trump? Why don't they do something about Hunter Biden? Why,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: you know, do they deny that the laptop was real? Like,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: you know, especially on the right, people are very invested.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: in the Hunter Biden saga. And so I think the
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: conviction probably for, look, there's still, and I just did
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: a focus group yesterday with two-time Trump voters in Utah.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: So I know that not everybody's taking this and saying,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: oh boy, now I really believe in the justice system.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Many of them are saying, boy, Hunter must have been
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: really guilty in order to have our crooked legal system
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: still convict him. But I think for swing voters, for
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: people for whom they're just getting a whiff of the
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Hunter stuff, the fact that he was convicted sort of
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: puts to rest the idea that Joe Biden is running
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: some big conspiracy to convict Donald Trump and use the
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: DOJ to just wield it for his own political purposes.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The first reaction is sadness, right? This is a
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: sad story. This is someone who has battled addiction their
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: whole life. It's a story that's very familiar to a
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: lot of Americans. I 100% agree with you that not
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: only is that, were he not Joe Biden's son, he
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: may not have been prosecuted at all, but certainly would
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: not have been brought to trial and probably would have
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: had some sort of plea agreement that would have resulted
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: in a fine, community service, something like that, and not
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: be facing potentially some time in prison, right? And the
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: reason that he is unlikely to get up to the
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: 25 years in prison is because he's a first time offender.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: And most importantly, I think, because he did not use
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the gun in a crime or in any sort of
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: violent way, but still he could face some time in prison.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: And it is going to just, I can already see
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the Twitter explosion among people on the left. If Hunter
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Biden gets sent to prison for this crime and Donald
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Trump does not get sent to prison for his crime,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: But I think it is– I'm going to be curious
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: to hear a little more of your thoughts on how
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: people– how voters are processing it. But I just don't
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: know that this– people are going to think a lot
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: about what this says about Joe Biden because it is
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: one– and this is an important point to make. For
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: all of what I find largely to be the bullshit
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: subject of all the Hunt and Bider investigations, the Burisma
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: payments and China and all these other things that have
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: to do on the right, this has nothing to do
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: with any of those things.
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: This is simply the story of someone going through addiction
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: who purchased a gun, and the jury found that he was,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: contrary to what Hunter and his attorneys argued, that he
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: was on drugs when he did so, so therefore he
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: lied on a form. It does not suggest any sort
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: of broader corruption or any other of the stuff you
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: hear from the right, but it is, you know, it's
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: sort of a sad story.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I ask about Hunter a lot in the groups, um,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: And in swing voter groups and certainly in Democratic groups,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: as long as you're not kind of in the MAGA
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: cinematic universe, the way that people interpret Hunter is as
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: a sad story. Like, they actually show a lot of compassion.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: And everybody says things like, you know, there's one in
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: every family. We all know what it's like to deal
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: with somebody in our family that has addiction problems. And
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: so people tend to be very charitable around issues like this.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: And they also say, like, if Joe Biden— there's a
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: connection with Joe Biden. I will hold that against Joe Biden,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: but I'm not holding this Hunter stuff against Joe Biden.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that gets to sort of my next question,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: which is, let's leave Trump out of it for a second.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And there has been this, we've, it really dating back to,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: you know, we're on like six years now of the
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: right going after Hunter. Once the right sort of identified
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden correctly as the biggest threat to Donald Trump
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: in the 2020 Democratic field, you know, he is, Hunter
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Biden was the subject of the blackmail phone call to Zelensky.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: There has been this effort to use Hunter as a
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: way to portray Joe Biden as corrupt, right? So put
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: aside Hunter and the gun stuff, but do you see
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: any evidence from persuadable voters that sort of this Biden
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: crime family stuff is sticking to the president?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: You know, here's where I think it works. It's not
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: that they think that Biden is the head of a
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: major crime family. It is though that they think all
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: politicians are corrupt, right? Like it plays into that. And
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: so The ability of the Trump operation to just sort
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: of besmirch Joe Biden, like muck him up a little
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: bit with this, that was their goal all along. That's
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: why there's an impeachment trial, despite the fact that they
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: clearly don't have any evidence. And they are finding themselves
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: now up against a wall sort of without having evidence.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: But they're willing to embarrass themselves on that front in
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: order to just kick up enough smoke around Hunter Biden
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: and Biden to try to offset Trump's obvious criminality with
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: what I think is a preexisting thing in voters where
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: they're kind of like, yeah, all these guys are corrupt.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: And that way it like negates Trump's, or at least
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: ameliorates Trump's obvious criminal deficiencies.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he's been rerunning the play he ran
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: with great success in 2016, the crooked Hillary. Now there
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: was much more, not that I think that Hillary Clinton
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: is crooked or corrupt, But Trump was surfing 20 years
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: of right-wing investigations and attacks on Hillary and a series
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: of mistakes that she had made that were not corrupt,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: but were things voters don't like, like giving speeches to
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Wall Street for pay, stuff like that. But I see
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: it in some of the polling, which is people think
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump is more corrupt than Joe Biden, but a
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: very unfair number of voters think Joe Biden is corrupt,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: someone who has conducted himself not just better than Donald Trump,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: but with decorum and ethics. There are not real investigations
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: into his presidency. There have not been scandals in his presidency.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: He was part of the Obama administration, which was, as
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: we always like to say, very famously scandal-free, if you
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: don't count the tan suit situation. Joe Biden has been
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: in politics a long time, He sort of is a walking,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: talking avatar for a political, you know, this is one
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: of his challenges, a walking, talking avatar for a political
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: system that voters inherently find corrupt. And so I totally
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: understand what the Trump folks are doing. Now, I will
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: get that there is some cognitive dissonance between Joe Biden,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: head of crime family, and Joe Biden, dementia kid. You know,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: you can't be both. And I've never seen them really
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: pay a real price for that sort of logical inconsistency.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: But It's not really the Hunter stuff I think is
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: the problem. It's just this idea that people think that
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: politicians are corrupt. People in politics for a long time
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: are inherently corrupt. Like, how could you not be? It's
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: a dirty system. And that does give Trump some advantage, right?
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: This is why he is, you know, I think he
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: announced with some fanfare a few weeks ago that he
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: was shifting to calling him Crooked Joe. And so I
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: think that's probably why.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, this is
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: just about trying to even the playing field to a
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: low information populace that is not plugged into the difference
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: in all these things.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: And that low information populace are the ones often most
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: likely to just assume that all politicians are corrupt, right?
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Low information and low trust are kind of the two
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: overlapping circles on the Venn diagram. Now, you might think
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: the right-wing media machine that's been going after Donald Trump's
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Manhattan conviction as a kangaroo court would hold up the
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Hunter verdict as the epitome of equal justice. Well, CNN
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: put together an excellent side-by-side of how Fox News personalities
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: reacted to each verdict. So let's listen.
• 9:34
  Speaker 6: This is a new era in America, and I think
• 9:37
  Speaker 6: it goes against the ilk of who we are as
• 9:40
  Speaker 6: Americans and our faith in the criminal justice system. In
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: the end, this jury of ordinary people from Delaware were
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: not intimidated by that family, and they recognized that this
• 9:53
  Speaker 6: was a clear-cut case and that clearly no one's above
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: the law.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: This is a very political exercise. and you have to
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: say that it accomplished what it set out to accomplish.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: But I would say this about Judge Nureka. I think
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: she ran a very fair courtroom. She ran a very
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: fair trial.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Now, there's also an emerging consensus that the verdict could
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: actually be helpful to Joe Biden. in the sense that
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's own DOJ going after his son shows that
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Biden is, in fact, not weaponizing the justice system. And
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I was really struck by how all over the map
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Republicans were in the response to the verdict. The Trump
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: camp put out a statement calling the verdict a distraction
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: from the real crimes of the Biden family. Trump advisor
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Stephen Miller tweeted, DOJ is running election interference for Joe Biden,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: apparently by trying to send his own son to prison.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: And Oversight Chairman James Comer, he of the famously and
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: laughably unsuccessful impeachment effort, called on DOJ to investigate the
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: whole Biden family and said if they don't, they're quote
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: unquote covering for the big guy. All right, Sarah, let's
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: unpack this. What do you make of the Republican response?
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Could they really have been caught off guard by a
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: guilty verdict?
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: So I think sometimes they are, and here's why. Like
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: they are so good at creating their own reality and
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: their own echo chambers that sometimes they end up living
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: in that reality. And then when they realize like, oh, wait,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: the system's not actually corrupt. The Department of Justice did prosecute,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: and Hunter Biden was found guilty. Whoops, now we need
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: a new talking point. And so you could see them
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: sort of, because, and you could see how different it
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: was from Trump's conviction, right, where they were incredibly locked up,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: had the exact same talking points. Here, they're scrambling a
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: little bit, but they do seem to be settling on
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: the idea that what is happening is that Joe Biden
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: is hanging out his son to dry on this conviction
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: or on this case in order to distract people from
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: the bigger crimes so that they don't get prosecuted. That's
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: where people seem to be landing.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is wild that, you know, you
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: don't have to have been like a legal analyst or
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: a deep consumer of the news or listen to the
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: strict scrutiny podcast here at Crooked Media to know that
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: the overwhelmingly most likely victim scenario would be that Hunter
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: was convicted, right? The evidence was clear. That's what everyone
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: watching it said. And it is interesting. It reminds me
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: a lot of the Republican response to Joe Biden's State
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: of the Union, right? Where they went in the morning
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: of the State of the Union, the Trump campaign, or
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: one of his super PACs, I can't remember which, put
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: out an ad. They ran in on Morning Joe to
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: try to get in Joe Biden's head with basically alleging
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: he had dementia and a bunch of out of context clips.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: And then Joe Biden goes out there and gives a
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: very good speech. And they're just like flabbergasted. Like they
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: can't even imagine that Joe Biden could give such a
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: speech so much so that they then reverse engineer the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: story that he must've been on drugs, potentially cocaine when
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: he gave the speech. So it's just like, it's like,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: it is, it is something is hard for Democrats to understand.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: It's just like how much, particularly in the Trump era
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: of the professional Republican political class has moved fully inside
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: of the hermetically sealed mega media bubble, right? It's just,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: they're not getting, you know, it wasn't like that when
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I worked in the White House, right? There were people who,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: there certainly were members of Congress like that and far
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: more people like that, but, you know, the leadership on
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the Hill and certainly people who made the ads and
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: wrote the emails and stuff, they were, you know, they
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: might've watched a lot of Fox and maybe they didn't,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: they probably didn't watch Rachel Maddow, but they also read
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: the news, right? They watched, they read the New York
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Times or the Wall Street Journal. And so they wouldn't
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: be caught so off guard. They weren't so detached from
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: reality that they couldn't be ready for such an obvious
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: and easy eventuality like this guilty verdict. Like you would
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: have been planning ahead, right? You would have been like,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: we know Trump's verdict is today. We know Hunter's trial
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: starts this day. We know that Trump, there's at least
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: a 50% chance that Hunter will be found guilty. And
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: how are we going to craft a narrative arc to
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: account for both of those things? And they just appear
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: to not do that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: This is what happens when you get high on your
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: own supply, right? Like you just, you find yourself totally
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: caught off guard when reality sets in and Republicans, um,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: They really, I mean, look, I have now spent years
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: listening to voters where, and you said something before about
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: linear thinking, like there is no, it is not linear.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Like Joe Biden is on drugs and they can hold
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: these thoughts in their heads. Like he's on drugs and
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: he also needs to be spoon fed oatmeal in the
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: morning by somebody else because he can't, you know, get
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: out of bed. He's running a crime family, but also
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: he's being puppeteered by Kamala Harris and the radical left.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And it was like this too with the election being stolen, right?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Like they have now, it's like the election was definitely
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: stolen in 2020. Everything is rigged. And then in races
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: that they win, it's not rigged. This is just how
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: it works now.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: So there's some interesting New York Times reporting on how
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: the Trump campaign was thinking about this conviction. And reportedly,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the Trump campaign and other Republicans were rooting for Hunter
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: to be acquitted. They had even had meetings about what
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: the fundraising emails would say if Hunter were acquitted. I mean,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: can you imagine anything more cynical, but also are they right?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: It would have been better for them if he was acquitted.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course it would have been better for them
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: if he was. And this is why, you know, politically
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: it's better for Joe Biden that he was convicted is
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: because if Hunter had been acquitted while Trump had been convicted,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: the right is very committed in their bubble to the
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: idea that there is a rigged two-tier justice system. And, uh,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I am sort of dying to get at a lot
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: more of these Trump voters because to hear how they
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: internalize the Hunter stuff, although we did do this group
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: last night. And like I said, there was a little
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: bit of, you know, well, yeah, with how skewed things are,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: you know, Hunter must just be very guilty. And, you know,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: they're still not, it's not like they're caught up short entirely.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: They find a way to back themselves and to walk
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: themselves into a rationalization that comports with, their long-held belief
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: of grievance or that whatever institution is rigged against them.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, if Hunter had been acquitted, they would
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: have been able to send out a ton of fundraising
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: emails and also sort of really played into the narrative
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: that they've set. That's the thing. This disrupts the narrative
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: that they were hoping to set.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: The voters you were talking to, were these the same
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: sort of two-time Trump voters who have soured on Trump?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: So these were potentially persuadable for Biden?
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: No.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: So these were, this was a different group. So we
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: do a lot now. We're doing almost two groups a week.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: So yesterday we were doing a group of two-time Trump
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: voters in Utah, not specifically Mormon. So we had done
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: recently a Mormon group of two-time Trump voters and then
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: just like Republican two-time Trump voters in Utah. And these
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: voters were tough, man. They did not like Spencer Cox. They,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you know, they were very Biden crime family. They had
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: sort of already it had filtered down to them. Some
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: of these talking points around this is a distraction to
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: distract from Joe Biden and his more serious crimes. And so, no,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: this is this. These ones are deep, deep in the
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Madagascar cinematic universe.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: The other thing the Times said that I thought was
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: interesting was that Trump himself had sort of indicated in
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: some meeting or somewhere that he was worried about going
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: after Hunter on the addiction stuff and had cautioned other
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Republicans and himself that he did not want to do
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: that because he thought it would make Joe Biden look
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: relatable and seem normal to people, seem like a good dad,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: which is exactly right. I was always struck when the Republicans,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: you know, using the laptop and like great fanfare would
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: go on Sean Hannity and release the loving voicemail that
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden left his son, just, you know, wrought with emotion,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: like hoping his son can get through recovery or make
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: a right choice in his life. And it is, you know,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: it's not, I mean, this is a very, very sad story.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: And from a, I don't worry about any of this,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: particularly from a political perspective for Biden. I worry about
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: it more from like the personal toll this takes on him.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: This is incredibly hard. This is his This is his son.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: He's worried about his son for decades now. And so
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: this takes a caution. I will be very curious to
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: see what Trump does in the debate about this. He
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: really tried in 2020. He went after Hunter very hard
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and tried to use it to knock Joe Biden off
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: of his game and to try to rattle him. And
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I think he's probably going to do that again. But
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I guess it just really says how bizarre a world
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: we're living in where I always do this thing where I,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like the poli-sci 101 test where you
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: just like take Trump out of it. You write a
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: question down and you kind of see what grade you
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: would get if this question was on a midterm for
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: political science 101. And it's like, would the president's son
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: being convicted of gun charges five months before the election
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: be good or bad for the incumbent? And the fact
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: that the conviction is good for the president and the
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: acquittal is bad for his opponent just does seem wild, right?
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: If you had written that down as your answer in college,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: you would have gotten an F on the test, right?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: But that's where we are right now.
• 19:04
  Speaker 6: True.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: But if you'd also said, could a candidate win his
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: party's primary after inciting an insurrection, being indicted for inciting
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: that insurrection, for mishandling classified documents, for sleeping with a
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: porn star, you'd be like, No.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: But what if that person was running against Ron DeSantis?
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: Then maybe.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, then maybe.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: That's right. Well, then definitely. Yeah, on the political science thing,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: that's a good... Look, I think that it'll be... Joe
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Biden should expect that from Trump.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, yeah.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: And so there's no way that Joe... I mean, this
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: is actually... The reason that the counterfactual doesn't work and
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: it can actually be good for Joe Biden is this
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: is where Joe Biden shines, right? As a decent... person
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: and when he is able to remind people that he
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: is a good person and also it's not just that
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: his DOJ indicted Hunter. It's also, he says, will he
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: pardon Hunter?
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: No.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: You know, he is following the rule of law. He
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: is respecting the jury. He is doing everything Donald Trump
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: is not. And so it is presenting a contrast that
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: in this bizarre world works for Joe Biden. And he
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: should expect that and he should not get rattled. And
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: he should use it as an opportunity to say, I
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: love my son. Families understand, like many millions of people
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: in this country understand what it's like to battle addiction. And,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: you know, but I will not get in the way
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: of the justice system. And I think that'll provide a
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: good contrast.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: One of the like big takes away and sort of
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: almost a point of pride among Democrats is that obviously
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Trump is convicted. Everyone screams, you know, corrupt, rigged justice system,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: corrupt judge and lies about it. And Joe Biden says,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to pardon my son and
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I will abide by the verdict of the judicial system.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to stand by the judicial system. That's obviously,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that's obviously the differences between the two people, but Do
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: you worry, as I do a bit, that Biden and
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Democrats are setting themselves up a little bit as the
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: defenders of a system that most voters don't trust, right?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: We're sort of becoming the defenders of the FBI, the
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: defenders of judges, defenders of juries, and whether that is
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: problematic given historically high levels of cynicism and distrust.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where you being a Democrat and me
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: being a lapsed Republican comes through, which is like, I'm
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: gung-ho about new institutional support for the FBI and the
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: courts and think that it's good. Look, I think that
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: there's a reason that right now in this moment of
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: political realignment, the Democrats find themselves able to bring over
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of these college-educated suburban voters who do not
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: want to burn the whole system down, who find value
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: in our system. And so I think that Democrats look
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: at this and they worry about traditionally Democratic voters who
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: are skeptical of these systems. But the fact is, like,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump and Republicans have now, the way that they
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: undermine any institution that tries to seek accountability on Donald Trump, right?
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: If it's the courts, they're rigged. If it's the FBI,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: it's the deep state. If it's an election, it's rigged.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: If it's cops who prosecute on January 6th, they're corrupt.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: And these institutions, ultimately, that is what liberal democracy is.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: These institutions make up liberal democracy. And so to the
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: extent that Democrats have now become the keepers of democracy,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the keepers of liberal democracy, they find themselves defending our
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: institutions and norms in ways that they might not have
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: otherwise because they felt like those institutions often applied themselves
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: unequally to certain types of people. But I think in
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: this particular moment, a lot of Democrats and part of
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the center-right coalition agrees that the defense of these institutions,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: however imperfect, is better than not having them at all.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. I don't, I'm not suggesting,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think that we should suggest that Joe Biden
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: or any Democrats should want to like burn the institutions down.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: There's probably an argument for not just being the defenders,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: but the people who are going to fix.
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: Them, right?
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: You know, or there is, you know, Donald Trump wants
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: to burn them down and we're going to defend them
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and fix them, right? Which is like, I always- I
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: always get very uncomfortable when Democrats say this election is
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: about saving democracy as opposed to fixing democracy is sort
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: of a better way. And the interesting thing is just
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: about how different people view the verdicts. I heard from
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: someone who was doing focus groups with Black voters after
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: the verdict. And one of the things they heard is
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: sort of the inverse of what you heard about how
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Hunter Biden could be convicted in a rigged justice system
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: is sort of the equivalent of, man, Donald Trump must
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: be really guilty if a rich, white, politically connected man
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: got convicted on 34 felonies, right? The system should be
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: rigged in his favor, and he's such a blatant bad
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: criminal that he got convicted anyway, right? And so I
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: think there is this, like we do in this conversation,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: particularly Democrats, with some of the very voters that we
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: are losing, have to, I don't buy the you know,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump can make common cause with black voters because
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: he was indicted. I think that's a bunch of bullshit.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: You don't hear a lot of, and I haven't heard
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of that from voters, but I think there
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: is that we just have to be very careful about
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: how we talk about the systems in a way that
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: can thread the needle between defending them, which is important,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: and becoming the defenders of the status quo, right? And
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: that's the challenge. Okay, let's talk about the results from
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: yesterday's primaries. In Nevada, Sam Brown, a former army captain,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: won the Senate nomination. He'll take on Senator Jackie Rosen,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: which will almost undoubtedly be a very close race that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: could determine Senate control. Rosen immediately released an ad attacking
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Brown as a carpetbagger and an extremist on abortion. Let's listen.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: I was excited to learn that I was going to
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: have a boy, but I got devastating news. The baby
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: would not survive.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Before Sam Brown ran for office in Nevada, he ran
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: in Texas, where he pushed one of the most extreme
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: abortion bans.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Because of the law Sam Brown pushed for, I had
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: to leave Texas to get the care I needed. Now
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: I live in Nevada, and I cannot watch Sam Brown
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: take away our rights here, too.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I'm Jackie Rosen, and I approve this message.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Now, Brown has tried to get ahead of this by
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: sitting for an interview with his wife and sharing her
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: story of having an abortion earlier in her life. Brown
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: told NBC News that he is, quote, personally pro-life and
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that he supports the state law, which allows abortion for
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: up to 24 weeks. Sarah, what do you think about
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: this approach from Rosen? Do you think opening the general
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: election on abortion is smart for her?
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: I think it's fine. I think that, you know, when
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: it comes to abortion, I talk about abortion in the
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: focus groups a lot. And my main takeaway has been
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: over the years now of talking about abortion. So when
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: you ask voters in any group, you know, how do
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: you think things are going in the country? What matters
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: to you? Nobody says abortion. They talk about the economy, inflation, crime, immigration,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: but they don't talk about abortion. Swing voters and Republicans especially,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: but even a lot of Democrats. Now, when you ask
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: them about abortion, though, they get incredibly animated. And it
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: is one of those issues that unites people immediately and
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: I think centers— their focus on something that Republicans have
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: taken away from them. And many of the folks that
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: are swing voters identify themselves the way that Brown does,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: which is that they are personally pro-life, but they still
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: believe in a woman's right to choose. And so I
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: think that when you raise the salience of abortion, like
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: this happened in 2022 very effectively. The first way that
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Gretchen Whitmer tagged Tudor Dixon was an extremist on abortion.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Tudor Dixon was in fact a tremendous extremist on abortion.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Like the only thing that anybody remembered about Tudor Dixon
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: was that she thought a 14-year-old or a 12-year-old who
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: was raped should have to carry the baby to term.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: And that was it. Whitmer's going to win by 10 points.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It worked the same for Laxalt, for Unabomber guy.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: It's Blake Masters, Unabomber guy.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Blake Masters. People viewed them as extreme on abortion.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: And that, coupled together with their extremism on election denialism
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: and just other issues like liking the Unabomber, kind of
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: fused together into a picture of a candidate that was
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: too extreme to vote for. So I think this is
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: a perfectly fine opening salvo. My only advice to Democrats
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: is that abortion is not all. It cannot be everything.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: And so fine for an opener, but can't be the
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: only thing.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just ask you, the other things I
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: take would be the economy slash inflation and immigration.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Well, look, I do think that I don't know if
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this, but I got
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: in a big fight with Axelrod and Gibbs about it
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: on Hacks on Tap.
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: Oh, good.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: This will be fun.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I do want Democrats to go on offense on the economy.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: We're in a vibe session, not a recession. And I
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, if there was a if you
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: could flood the zone with surrogates talking not about the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: economy being amazing and why doesn't everybody appreciate how amazing
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: it is, but saying, hey, Donald Trump cratered this economy
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: by mishandling the pandemic and and all that supply chain disruption,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: that was all from Donald Trump's mishandling of COVID. And
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden has been putting this thing back together to
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: the point where we are recovering better than every industrialized
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: country on the planet. It is not done yet. It's
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: still too painful on rent, still too painful at the
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: grocery store, but we have made a ton of headway.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Inflation is cooling. I just think there is an offense
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: message that helps. Like if you told me that the
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: economy was in the toilet, I'd be like, well, there's
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: not much to do about that. But when you tell
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: me voters just don't appreciate it, then I'm like, okay, well,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: that's a narrative problem. Narrative problems can be solved and
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: they can be solved with intensity and with volume and
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: with a push forward. And Democrats seem, I think you guys,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I just
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: think there's like a consensus among a lot of you
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: that you gotta be really careful and you gotta say, no, no, no,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: we feel your pain. And I'm not sure To me, basically,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I come from a Republican school of communications, which is,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and you're watching it right now, where they create their
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: own reality. And so when Donald Trump gets his economy,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: he's like, best economy for women, best economy for black people.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: How's your 401k, buddy? And it is energetic and it
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: is something that everybody repeats. And it becomes, I mean,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: he was given, the reason that he has such, it's
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: so sticky that Trump had such a good economy is
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: because they hammered it so hard that it was a
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: great economy, much better than an ultimate. I mean, he
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: was running the economy hot. He was racking up the debt.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: But this is why they have a good impression. And
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I just think Democrats would really benefit from, yeah,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: taking some going on offense a little bit here.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to put words in Axelrod and
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Gibbs' mouth. I mean, my take on it is, This
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: election is actually pretty simple, right? For all of my
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: PoliSci 101 bullshit, it's actually pretty simple, which is three
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: quarters of voters say they're unhappy with the economy. Those
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: numbers are even higher among the Democrats that Joe Biden
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: is losing. Most voters say that the economy slash inflation
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: is their number one issue. And very specifically, when you
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: ask them, what's the issue most likely to decide your vote?
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Three times as many people say the economy inflation as
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: immigration or abortion, at least in the New York Times
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: poll in May. And Donald Trump has a 20-point advantage
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: on that issue, right? It's like, that's the whole thing.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: And you're 100% right, particularly for Senate Democrats, they have
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: to keep abortion front of mind. And it's very critical
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: for Jackie Rosen to do it because unlike some of
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: the other Republican Senate candidates, Sam Brown here has gone
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: on offense a little bit and is trying to avoid
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: falling into the exact same trap that countless Republicans have
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: fallen into by just endorsing a 15-week ban or having
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: been for this or that unpopular. So she's got to
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: go on offense and define him before she can define herself.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: So that makes sense to me. More broadly on the economy,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I think the story is, I do think we have
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: to be careful. I think that's probably where the disagreement
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: with Axe and Gibbs came in is we can't oversell it,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: but we shouldn't undersell it either. Donald Trump messed this
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: thing up. Joe Biden's been putting it together. He's done
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of really good things. And you tell people
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: what those things are. And there's a lot more work
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: to do. And then you get to Donald Trump will
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: make it worse.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump's going to cut taxes for rich people and
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: he's just going to run up the debt. And yeah, no,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: it's exactly right.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And he's going to cut tax for rich people. He
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: is going to, you know, I think his, no one
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: really knows about what tariffs are, but when you explain
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: to people that Donald Trump can raise tariffs on his
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: first day in office without Congress, and if he does,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: that is going to lead to an average $ 1, 500 a
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: year increase. increase for the average American family, right? Like
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: that is a big deal. And how is he going
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to pay for that tax cut? He's going to cut
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Social Security and Medicare and repeal the Affordable Care Act.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I think we should be on offense on the economy.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I'm confident that Rosen, I'm sort of hopeful Rosen will
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: get there. I think it's particularly important in Nevada, given
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: what the electorate looks like there, right? It's obviously a
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: very diverse state. It's a state with a large working
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: class population. And those voters have tended to tell pollsters
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: that the economy is even more important for them than others.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: but I think that's right. But let's go back to
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Nevada for a sec. Could you envision Brown, because I
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: think his strategy is interesting here, right? He is trying
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: to be the first Republican not to just let a
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Democrat beat him over the head on their abortion position.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Could you envision him cutting an ad sharing his wife's story,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: or is that a bridge too far for a Republican candidate?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: No, I think he could do it. I mean, I
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: got to tell you, I think that it depends on
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: sort of where you're running. If you're kind of running
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: in the red state Bible belt, you're walking a line.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: But You just pointed this out. Nevada is a place
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: where you have a lot of these white working class
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: voters who are pretty secular about this stuff. And there
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: have been a number of things that still surprise me
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: about voters as I talk to them. And one of
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: them has been how often in a two time Trump
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: voting group. the majority of the group is pro-choice. And
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: in fact, when you get voters criticizing the Republican Party,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: like they're more Trump voters over the Republican Party, one
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: of the main reasons they give is that they don't
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: like the social positions of the Republican Party, by which
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I think they mean gay marriage and abortion. Like they
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: just don't like the Mike Pence of it all, you know,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: the judginess. They like Trump's secular approach to these social issues.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: And I think that in a state like Nevada, you
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: can get away with, and in fact, because it's his
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: biggest liability, and because they do have a personal story
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: to tell, I think that they could do that without
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: suffering too much from the far right pro-life flank of
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: the party there.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope he doesn't cut in on it with us,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: because I think it would get a lot of attention.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Because one interview, no voter, I'd be interested to see
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: a poll, but an NBC news interview is not going
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: to reach any of the voters he needs to reach, right?
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: It's just not how you communicate anymore. So if you
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: want to, you have to go mass communication if you
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: want people to actually know this. And so if he
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't put it in an ad, it's not going to
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: be known. I hope he doesn't. And is it really,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: and there will certainly be blowback, like there will be noise,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe from this group or that group, but
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: are there going to be a lot of voters who
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: are going to turn out for Trump and then not
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: vote for Sam Brown because he ran this ad? No, right? Like,
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that's not how it works, right? They're like, Any candidate
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: in a presidential year has more wiggle room than in
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: a midterm because the main reason that voters are turning
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: out is not them. It's the top of the ticket.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And so he could do it. I hope he doesn't.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: And if there's noise and division about it, I hope
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Democrats exploit it. But I could certainly see him running
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: this ad. The Republicans want the Senate, right? That is
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: very clear in how they got Trump to kind of
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: sort of endorse Sam Brown the day before the primary election.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: as opposed to like the more MAGA, his own ambassador
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: to Finland or wherever that guy was from. And so,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: you know, I think they will, after losing a bunch
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: of Senate races in a row, that there tends to
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: be a little less orthodoxy and a little more focus
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: on winning.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is, I think, underappreciated right now
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: is the fact that you've got Sam Brown in Nevada,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: you've got Dave McCormick in Pennsylvania, you've got Tim Sheehy
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: in Montana. like they've kind of locked up the, you know,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: even Larry Hogan running in Maryland, right? Even though they're
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: now yelling at him because he said that one should
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: respect jury verdicts. But they have, the Republicans this time
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: around have done a much better job with their Senate candidates, yes,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: in an attempt to actually win than they did in
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: say 2022. But I also just want to point out
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: something you just said about that I think is important
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: for people to remember about Trump being on the ballot
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: versus not being on the ballot is a big problem.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: In 2022, Trump wasn't on the ballot. He sort of
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: spiritually was because he had a bunch of these super
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: MAGA candidates that a lot of these swing voters rejected,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: but he wasn't literally on the ballot in the way
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: that people who turn out just for Trump help Republicans
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: in a general election. And so like, These voters this
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: time around, these Senate candidates will have the benefit of
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Trump actually being on the ballot, which is where I
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: think you see a much bigger juice and turnout because
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: there just really is now a set of voters who
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: are not Republicans. They're just Trump voters.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: It's very, it's, it's very, it'd be very alarming for
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: the DSCC.
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: There wasn't much earth shattering news out of the primaries
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: in the other states. Nancy Mace easily survived her primary
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: challenge from a candidate backed by former speakers, Kevin McCarthy,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: whom she had helped depose. But there was an interesting
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and unexpected result in Ohio. There was a special election
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: in eastern Ohio in a district Trump won by 29
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: points in 2020. Last night, the Republican beat the Democrat
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: by only 10 points. Dems are, of course, seizing on
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: this as a sign that there is momentum for Democrats
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: that the polls aren't showing, similar to the 2022 midterms. Sarah,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: do you buy that? Do you think these special elections
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: tell us anything about November?
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: No.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I do believe broadly as a new political
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: point that Democrats are overperforming in a because they benefit
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: from the political realignment, right? The voters that they have
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: picked up are these college educated suburban voters who are super,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: super reliable. I think that helped them with the Wisconsin
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court race. I think that helped them in lots
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: of other special elections, including in 2022. I just don't
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: think that's what happened in this race. I don't think
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Democrats can read anything good into this race. In fact,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's the reason that I just said before.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Because where the Republican did better in the Youngstown area, actually,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: than in the rural areas, right? So why is that?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: To me, that reads that this is the area where
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Trump does the best, right? Trump won that by some
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: insane margin. And then Vance won it by a less
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: but still quite large margin. And then this replacement level
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Republican wins it by a much narrower margin. And I
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: think that is a lack of turnout in the rural
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: areas for people who are MAGA first and just don't
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: really care to show up for Republicans. I'll also say,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know this for a fact, this is new,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: really new, but I do wonder if because Trump as
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: has become the entire Republican party, that the local Republican apparatus,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: like the turnout, whatever, that it's all getting pretty sclerotic
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: because now it's also Trump dependent. And so I'm not
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: sure they're doing the like nuts and bolts turnout work
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: in a lot of these places that they used to do. Um,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: just because like Trump sucks up all the money, all
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: the attention, all the energy, and like the state parties
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: are starting to wither and just the run by cranks and, um,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: sycophants and not anybody who knows how to win an election.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. My take on this is, now, if the Republican
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: had won by 40 points and outperformed Trump by 11 points,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: there would have been a thousand stories saying that this
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: was doomed for Democrats, right? It just would have been
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: like it would have led playbook. There would have been
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: a panic attack on MSNBC. We'd have another round of
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: conversations about Joe Biden dropping out, it would have been
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: seen as a bad news. And so it's obviously very
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: frustrating for Democrats when bad news is bad news and
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: good news is no news, right? Like that's not awesome.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I 100% agree. This doesn't tell us a lot. This
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: doesn't tell me that Ohio is going to be competitive
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: or that Sherrod Brown is going to cruise the reelection.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: It basically tells me that two things. One, your point
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: about the shift in who our base is, that we
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: now just have more high-frequency voters who make up our base.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It also tells me that our campaign machinery is is
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: up and running, right? We are, this is not a
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: race that there's a ton of investment in, but just
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: in general, at the local level, this is one of
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: the byproducts of all of the organizing mobilization after Trump
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: won in 2016, is that we just have people on
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: the ground everywhere who can do these things. And that
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: is helpful on the margins in a close race. And
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: so it's not decisive, but to me, it's kind of interesting.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: One quick thing before we go to break. We are
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: two weeks out from the release of Democracy or Else, John, John,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: and Tommy's incredibly useful, funny, timely book. And Let me
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: tell you how this works, because as many people have
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: listened to me pitch my own books on this podcast
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: for years now, the most important thing you can do
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: to ensure the success of a book is to pre-order it.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: If you order it now, you will get it the
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: day it comes out, whether it's crooked.com slash books, whether
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: it's your local bookstore, bookshop.org, Amazon, wherever you get your books.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: make sure you go pre-order it right now. And the
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: reason why that matters is every order you have now
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: goes immediately into the metric by which the New York
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Times calculates their bestseller list. All the publishers are watching that.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: The people who make decisions about what kind of press
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: coverage a book is going to get watch those pre-order numbers.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: And so if you want to get this book on
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: the list and you want to help John and John Tommy,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: you want to make sure as many people read this
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: book as possible, because that's what we need. We need
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: as many people to read Democracy or Else and then
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: go take those lessons and go help beat Donald Trump,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: then we got to get this book on the bestseller
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: list so that people see it, people know about it.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Books on the bestseller list get put in the front
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: of bookstores, right? More of them get sold. It is
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: a virtuous cycle. So put aside all of that. You
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: cannot possibly let John John Tommy live in a world
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: where I made the bestseller list and they did not.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Like that would be cruel and unusual punishment. So let's
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: not do that. And if that's not enough for you,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: all of Cricket's profits from the book are going to
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: support Vote Save America in 2024 campaigns. So each book
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: is actually helping save democracy. and you get a funny, smart,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: illustrated guide to get you through this election year, head
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: to crooked.com slash books now to grab your copy. We
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: are now less than five months from the election, which
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: makes me want to puke. And we're just about two
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: weeks from the first scheduled debate on June 27th in Atlanta,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: which also makes me want to puke. And since you
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: talk to actual voters more often than just about anyone,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I thought it would make sense to take a step
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: back and have a broader conversation about where we stand.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I want to start with how voters are reacting to
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Trump's conviction. You recently conducted a focus group of two-time
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Trump voters who have soured on the former president. Let's
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: take a listen.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: I don't believe I would stand up and sell a
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Bible for $ 60 when they put me all over the
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: news for exactly what we saw on the news yesterday.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: So I can't vote for him.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I think nothing's moving the needle for me.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Trump is unfit for office.
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: I thought the trial highly politicized, but in the hands
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: of the jury, both sides had the chance to present
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: their case.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: And that's ultimately how it should have been done.
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: I am happy that the jury found him guilty. And
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: I think also now that he is a convicted felon,
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: he is completely unfit. He can't pass a basic security
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: clearance at this point. I'm not sure if he can
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: vote in Florida. He may not be allowed to go
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: to different countries as a felon. This is not appropriate.
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: Knock it off, Republicans. Find somebody else.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Were you surprised by this reaction, given what you normally
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: hear from these sorts of Trump voters, former Trump voters?
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: No.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: So this is this group that we screened specifically because
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: they were two-time Trump voters, but who don't want to
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: vote for him again. Like, they're kind of out. They're
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: not all the way out. They're not like never out.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: but they don't want to vote for him again. And
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: we often screen for this type of voter in order
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: to understand our persuadable universe, right? Because we run Republican
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: voters against Trump. These are the kinds of people that
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: we want to get, not just to not vote for Trump,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: but to affirmatively vote for Biden. And so we talk
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: to them a lot, trying to understand them. And so
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: it didn't surprise me to hear them say things like,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: I'm already out on this guy. And this is, there
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: are a lot of voters, like a meaningful number of.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: Voters, right?
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Who held their nose and voted for Trump both times
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: because they were tribally Republican, but they didn't like him,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: who January 6th, they were like, I am out. Now,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: there's a bunch of those voters who like slowly found
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: their way back and rationalized it over time. But there
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: are plenty of people who are still out. We hear
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: from them all the time. They are part of our
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: campaign now, which is all made up of people who
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: previously voted for Trump, explaining why they won't vote for
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: him again. And it's like the election lies, the whining.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: And a lot of these people were DeSantis people.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: They were the move on from Trumpers. They're not never Trumpers.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: They're move on from Trumpers. I want somebody else. And
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: they just won't vote for the dude again. The thing
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: that surprised me was not how they sounded. The thing
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: that surprised me was that five out of nine of
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: them said that they would affirmatively vote for Biden. And
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: I think that this is where the conviction makes a
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: bit of a difference, is that to win this election, people,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: when we talk about double haters, one of the things
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I always try to make clear to people is that
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: double haters are just people who don't want to vote
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: for either person, but it's a little bit of a
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: misnomer because they don't hate Biden. They don't want to
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: vote for him, but they don't hate him. They do
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: hate Trump. The feeling is stronger. And so what happens is,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: is you get something like a conviction. And also when
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Trump is more central to the conversation, when Biden's central
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: to the conversation, these voters that are center-right they think
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: about what they don't like about Joe Biden. When Donald
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Trump is central to the conversation, they think about what
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: they don't like about Trump and they start to be like,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: I'll vote for whatever, the tomato can that is gonna
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: stand between Trump and the White House. I'm not calling
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden a tomato can. I'm just saying like, it
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter who it is. They just are like, you
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: can't let this guy back in the White House. And
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: that is how you get people, right? When they start
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: to focus on Trump and when they start to think
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: about how unfit he is, that's when they make the
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: transition to like, well, I'll vote for the other guy
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: even though I don't want to.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that 509 number.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: It's not often. I listen to your podcast every weekend.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: It's one of the first things I do on Saturdays.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: And I don't often leave it feeling super awesome after
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: listening to the voters. This is one where I did
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: leave quite optimistic and told my wife she should listen
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: to it because she even more would like me to
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: filter out bad political news. So that was great to hear.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I was sort of struck listening to them because it
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: feels like there are two main groups within the Biden
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: persuadable universe. There are the more traditional members of the
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Democratic coalition, Black voters, Hispanic voters, younger voters that have
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: soured on Biden. And then there are the more right-leaning
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: folks who have soured on Trump, right? They're either two-time
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Trump voters or they are Trump-Biden voters who may vote
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: for a Republican in the congressional race who aren't sold
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: on Biden. Do you think it's possible that Trump's criminality
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: in his conviction is a better argument with the right-leaning voters?
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: The argument for those people is that Trump is bad.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: And the argument for our people is Biden is better
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: than you think. Does that make sense?
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: It totally makes sense. And I got to say, I
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: don't want to depress you, but I am often more
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: optimistic about our folks, the center-right voters, because they do
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: move over abortion. They do move over January 6th. They
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: do move actually over issues of democracy, like Trump's threat.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: These are older white voters who came to the party
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: to vote for Ronald Reagan. They voted for Mitt Romney.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: They voted for John McCain. And they don't hate those votes.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: They were happy to vote for those people, unlike the
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: new Trump voters who held their nose and voted for
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: those people. And so I feel encouraged that as Trump
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: comes into the picture, these sort of center-right voters who
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: really hate Trump vote for other Republicans who aren't Trump,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: if they're sort of in the vein of normal, that
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: they will get there on Biden out of their sheer
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: hatred of Trump. I worry, because I listen, I do
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: focus groups with the young progressive voters, I do them
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: with the Democrat. And when they say like Genocide Joe
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and there's no difference between Trump and Biden, I'm like,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: that I don't know what to do about.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: It's the younger voters who, you know, there's this fascinating
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: blueprint poll that asked younger voters like what they remembered
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: about Trump, what they knew about Trump. And if you're
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: under 30, like Trump has not been a huge part
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: of your life, right? If you're under 25 and like
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: they asked them if they remembered, find people on both
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: sides and all these other things and they didn't. And
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: so there is an education effort. on Trump. It is
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: a real challenge. All right, let's pivot to the debate.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: According to reports, the Biden campaign is already in the
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: process of preparing the president and they're game planning how
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: to deal with all of Trump's insanity. My first question is,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: do you think Trump is really going to show up?
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: I do.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of people think that he's not.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, those who buy Bulwark family think that, you know,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Trump's looking for a reason to get out of it.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: But this is another one where I would just say,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: high on our own supply. Like, The Republicans think that
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden is going to fall asleep at the podium
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: and that Trump, where Trump really has Biden, is on
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: his big lunatic energy coming off as much stronger or whatever.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: And so I think he wants the opportunity to dominate Biden.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: So I don't know why he wouldn't show up, but maybe.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Why do you think he wouldn't show up?
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: If I had to bet money, I would bet that
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: he would show up. I have been struck by the...
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: I know this is an old riff of his, but
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: he really is hammering the drug test thing, which I
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: think maybe it's probably that's just a line that gets applause.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: But this idea that Joe Biden must take a drug
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: test because he's going to be on whatever his State
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: of the Union stash was that's going to make him
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: seem energetic and smart. And he's been really hammering. Jake,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: in his words, fake tapper in Dana Bash, who I
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: think he calls Dana all the time. So he's doing
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: one of two things. And I think the most likely
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: is the former, which he's just trying to set up expectations, right?
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Where it's just like, I went in there, these guys,
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the press was against me, Joe Biden was on drugs,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: and I still did pretty well or explained away any failures.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Or the other one is to get out of it.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I think he would probably show up. I mean, he
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: thinks he's winning by a lot. And his philosophy in
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: the primaries was, if you're winning, you shouldn't debate. So
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: that's the only thing that kind of gives me pause.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: So I don't really know. But either way, what advice
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: would you give the Biden folks about how to conduct
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: the debate? Anything you should say or do that would
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: work with the voters that you talk to all the time?
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: He should take whatever drugs he took during the State
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: of the Union because that's the guy that needs to
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: show up. I mean, this is this debate is all
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: about how does Joe Biden like come off? Does he
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: seem like he can do it? And what he says,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's going to be important what he says.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: I do think, you know, he's got to be able
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: to make an affirmative case that. Donald Trump is a
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: lunatic who's going to be surrounded by other lunatics in
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: his next four years, and that Joe Biden's going to
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: be surrounded by good people. Donald Trump is in this
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: for himself. He's only doing it to stay out of
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: jail and to get people's money to support his, you know,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: keeping him out of jail. And I think that he
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: should go on offense on those things. But like, none
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: of that is going to be as important as voters
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: being like, remember how you felt after the State of
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: the Union? Just remember how you felt after being like,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: look at that guy. We need that. That moment has
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: to happen. People just have to feel like Joe Biden
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: stood in there with Trump, gave as good as he got,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: seems like he could do the job, and that's the
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: bar he's got to clear.
• 50:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of wild, right? I hear a
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: lot from people like, you know, I'm having conversations with
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: voters and Biden's age comes up and it's like, well,
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: what should I tell him? And it's like, well, I've
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: seen all the polling and nothing you tell them really helps.
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: There's no, there's no verbal message that comes from another
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: person that says Joe Biden, uh, is up to the job,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: but it really, you know, and you spend, they're going
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: to spend all this time as they should, you know, like,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: here are the words you can say, here's the moments, right.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: He's going to practice lines in a mirror. He's going
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: to do it. And that 90% of it's going to
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: be how he says the line, right. 99% of it really.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: And that's just sort of a, a wild thing. And it's,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's, it, it'd be interesting to see
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: like what the threshold is, right? Cause the state of
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: the union was Joe Biden being judged against the character
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: of Joe Biden. And the debate is being judged against
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump.
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Which comes with good and bad, right? Good because he
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: might seem, uh, sane and rational and like a normal
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: human being worthy of being a president while Trump is
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: acting like, like his energy during debates dating back to
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: 2016 is quite crazy.
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: And, and Trump could be in his, uh, sort of
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: feral state reminding some voters of what they don't like
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: about the guy and why they were concerned about him
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: in 2020. But he, so he doesn't, and this is important,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: he doesn't have to out energy Trump. He just has
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: to beat his own threshold. And that's a hard thing,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: particularly for someone who's as competitive as Biden, right? I'm
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: just gonna be fascinated to see, I'm gonna, I certainly
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: hope to watch some dial groups as it's happening of
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: how voters are interpreting it in real time, right? And then,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: afterwards at how voters are going to interpret the clips
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: they see, right? And that's going to matter a ton.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: It's going to matter a ton more than anything.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: I'd be interested to see what viewership is, right? It
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: was 70 million in 2020 when everyone was locked in
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: their homes. What's it going to be in the summer
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: of 2024 when we can go to baseball games and
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: other things? Is it going to be 40 million, 50 million?
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: But the vast majority of people in all the, and
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: the thing is that we also have to remind ourselves
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: is that of that 50 million, if let's say it's 50,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: 85% of it are decided voters, 90% of it are
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: decided voters, and the rest of it is going to
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: be what will be the clips people see. And that
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: benefited Biden a lot in the State of the Union,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: and we'll see what happens in the debate where there
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: are people trying to push out less favorable clips.
• 52:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Can I just push back on this idea about people
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: being decided? Or I don't know if I'm pushing back,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: but maybe I'm pushing back on the percentage, in part
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: because the thing about people who don't like either candidate
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: is that they're still going to vote, lots of them.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: And My theory of the case for Biden has always
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: been that the people who dislike both break late for Biden,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: but like some things have to happen for them to
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: break late for Biden. And part of that is, and
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: it's sort of like the way Angela also Brooks, like
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: we just saw this happen with her, right? She got
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: a bunch of endorsements. She was running way behind Trone.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: He had all the name idea, whatever. But like when
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: push games and stuff, people broke for her, I think
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: because of endorsements, because of other things. And also because
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: they just didn't like him that much. Uh, and so
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: the late breaking thing is real. And I think if
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: the double haters, you, if Biden can clear certain thresholds
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: of like, he's up to the job, he seems good.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: He seems normal. I believe he wants to do the
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: right thing for the country. And I think Donald Trump
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: wants to burn it all down. Like, I think that
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: you can get there. I just think these moments for
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Biden that like pressure so high, like he can't have a,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: he can't crater in this debate. He just can't.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Michael, my more on the 85% was who would watch
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: the debate live. Do you think that some of those
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: double haters will tune in for the debate?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, although you're right. I also hear a lot of
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: people in the group say, like, oh, I can't watch. Like,
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: it's just, you know, that.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Is how a lot of people feel. I know a
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: lot of Biden voters who cannot watch, right? My mom-
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: is not going to be able to watch the debate.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's because I hear voters, the poor Democratic voters,
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: they're always like, I just get so nervous. They all
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: do this thing where they put their hands out like
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: they're going to help Joe Biden, like an invisible Joe
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Biden somewhere, like they're going to steady him with their hands.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the side you're trying to help, a
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: bunch of nervous Nellies just trying to save democracy. Finally,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: a bunch of outlets, including ABC and NBC, are reporting
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: that Trump's vice presidential search has moved into a new stage,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: and they've asked the top contenders to fill out vetting paperwork.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Anonymous sources say the shortlist is some combination of Marco Rubio, J.D. Vance,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Doug Burgum, and maybe Tim Scott. There's also a second
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: tier that may include Tom Cotton, Elise Stefanik, and Byron Donalds.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Do any of these folks scare you more than others?
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Is there someone that you secretly hope Trump will pick?
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, that I hope? I know who scares me the most.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, so anything that.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: I think- I'm going to be curious. I bet I
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: can guess who you think scares you the most, but
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I want to hear.
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Well, do you want to write it down and then
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: show me later or show me after I say it?
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: I'll just tell you. I think you're going to say Rubio.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: I am going to say Rubio. And Rubio scares me
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: the most. Scott scares me second most. And the reason
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: is that, number one, I think that what– and I
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: think it's going to be one of those two because
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: I think that the Republicans really want to– or Trump
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: wants to lean into the fact that they're doing well
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: with both Hispanics and with potentially black men. And so
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: they seem like ways to sort of signal that they
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: want to do more of that, number one. But the
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: thing about Marco Rubio that freaks me out, and Tim
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Scott to a slightly lesser degree, is that the Republican
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: establishment that hates Trump will wet their pants over Marco Rubio.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: They will be like, see, it was a weird, circuitous route,
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: but we got our Marco Rubio that we always wanted,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: and Trump's gonna eat a cheeseburger and die, and we're
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: gonna get Rubio, and we're all back, baby. Wall Street
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Journal editorial page, we're back. And I do not want
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: that for them. And I have a Tim Miller, my
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: colleague at the Bulwark, has a little, he disagrees with me,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: where he's sort of like, wouldn't it be, don't you
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: kind of want there to be like a semi-normy, behind Trump,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: that like, if it is Trump, that, you know, and
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I'm like, forget, no, Marco Rubio, and this is a
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: weird one because I'm usually kind of the institutionalist, but
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: there is no part of me that wants to give
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: either Marco Rubio or the Republican establishment that's accommodated Trump,
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: an inch on this. I don't want them to get this.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: I want him to do his true id self and
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: bring Carrie Lake or Marjorie Taylor Greene with him and
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: lose the election on all their crazy. This would be
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: a major calibration and it would help him a lot because, man,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: these guys are old. Their VPs are going to matter
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: more than they ever have before, which still is not
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: a lot, but still more than ever.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Rubio worries me the most by far for many of
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: the reasons you just said. I think it would create–
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: there were going to be some people, some of the
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: kind you talked to, not just the National Review Republicans
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: who are still trying to wrestle with Trump, but like
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: actual voters who are trying to decide between the two
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: and are like Rubio just will speak to some sort
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: of– previous Republican normalcy, that could be a tiebreaker, right?
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: That's kind of how I see the vice presidential race
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: for Trump. It's like, at most, it's a tiebreaker for
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: some voters, which is why I can hope he picks
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Doug Burgum, because I think no one makes a decision
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: for Doug Burgum. I don't think it helps. And I
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: could really see him picking Rubio because it's complicated. Rubio
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: would have to renounce his Florida residency, which I could
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: see Trump enjoying doing.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: He gets to make Rubio move out of his state
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: and he gets to make him VP. And so he
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: would worry me a lot. I am much more worried.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: I'm worried about everything, but much more worried about Biden's
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: performance among Hispanic voters than Black voters. Although I would
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: just note again, I'm worried about both. Tim Scott, I
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: am less worried about. I think Tim Scott... Just is bad.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Like he just, he just comes off. I think the
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: lesson of Tim Scott's miserable failure of a Republican primary
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: campaign is not that he can't relate to the Republic,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: to the Trump mega base. It's that he can't relate
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: to humans.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: He's just not like he is. He will give a,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: if Tim Scott is chosen, he will give a very
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: good convention speech because he has a powerful story. He
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: gave the same speech in 2020. I just don't see him.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: really relating to a lot of voters in a way
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: that is helpful.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Let me make my, my case on Tim Scott. Well,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: I think it could be him. He has, uh, like
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: when you talk about Trump, I totally agree with you.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Trump would love to make Marco Rubio have to move
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: out of Florida. You know what else he likes doing?
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: Making Tim Scott get married. Uh, like, and so like,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: like Tim Scott clearly thinks he's in it because he's
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: gone ahead and been like, I'm going to reconstruct my
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: whole life to live this fantasy that Donald Trump's supposed
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: to do. Also, Tim Scott has a real weakness to him. Like,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: if I were Trump, my concern about Marco Rubio is
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: that inside Marco Rubio lives a guy who always wanted
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: to be president, who thinks he should have been president
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: who secretly hates Donald Trump, who Trump can't quite trust.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Whereas Tim Scott is like, whatever you say. And he's
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: wimpy on TV. He's not good. You're right, he's not good.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: But in a way that Trump is kind of like,
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I just need him for optics and I'm running this show.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: And so there's a part of me I don't know.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: I still can see the case for Tim Scott. I know.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: I can see for why Trump would pick Tim Scott,
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: for sure. I just, from a political perspective, am less
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: worried about Tim, much less worried about Tim Scott than
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Marco Rio. This is going to sound like a crazy
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: thing to say. I'm really workshopping this right here in
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: front of you and all of our listeners, is if
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: you told me who I'd be to be more worried about,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Tim Scott or Byron Donalds, I would say Byron Donalds.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: I think he has a story. He has energy. I mean,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: he obviously is crazy, right? I mean, he's been running
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: around defending himself for saying black people were better off
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: during Jim Crow. But I think Tim Scott is just
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: boring as all get out. And Byron Donalds, I think,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: would have energy. And I could see Byron Donalds going
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: on to The Breakfast Club and mixing it up in
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: a way that Tim Scott would never be able to do.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Just Tim Scott just has weird politician energy. And that's
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: sort of how he is. And Byron Reynolds has full
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: MAGA energy, but he's just better. He's much better on
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: TV and in the press than Scott is. I think
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: you also nailed why Trump would not pick Rubio. Like
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: he'd have to be really convinced that Rubio was necessary
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: for victory.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: To because he hates Marco Rubio. He thinks he's a loser.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: To reward him. And I think he would also be
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: worried that Rubio would be like the people he has
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: pledged not to hire.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: The John Boltons, the Gary Cohns, the Rex Tillersons, the
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: former establishment people who didn't go along with all of
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: his crimes. But it's going to be fascinating to watch.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: I think it's pretty interesting that Trump is going to,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: or at least is suggesting he's going to announce during
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: the convention who his VP is, which is probably pretty smart.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: It is. I will tell you, I'm nervous about the
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: VP selection because I think there are a lot of
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: people he could choose. Your point, I'm going to steal
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: this now like it's mine. Because the tiebreaker point is
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: just right on. Because when you got the double haters, right?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: And I think of the conviction as like a log
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: on the fire that burns against Trump. You give them
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: a good VP that takes those double haters and gives
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: them something to be like, OK, this is my thing
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: that gets me over the hump.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, I think. The VP is going to,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: as you said, usually my take is the VP will
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: only cost you the election and won't win it for you.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: And this time they could actually win it for you.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: And there are people on this list who I think
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: would cost it to him, right? I think these are
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: all fine, right? I mean, Doug Burgum's a nothing burger.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 5: J.D.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Vance is kind of a nothing burger to most people.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Tom Cotton, kind of a nothing burger, but maybe some
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: upside for some of them. Sarah, thanks for doing this.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was so fun.
• 1:02:02
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• 1:02:04
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• 1:02:11
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• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: a review. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Reid
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: Cherlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Mia Kelman, David Tolles, Kiril Pellaviv,
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  Speaker 4: and Molly Lobel.